I mean were there some other lands originally or it was without details with only Cormyr, Dalelands and Waterdeep
I heard that nagas were supposed to be in Unther, something like that
-Personally speaking, I like the official Forgotten Realms better than that of which I've heard those little snippets from, from Ed Greenwood.
Additionally, Ed's early DRAGON articles [in the early issues, such as "The Merry Month of . . .Mirtul?" in #47 and "Down-To-Earth Divinity" in #54, for example] feature some tidbits on the conceptual basis of his Realms.
Thay, I remember, was supposed to be more along the lines of cultish, Oriental and Conan the Barbarian.
So saith Ed [July '06]:- "Thay was my Orient, or as close as the Realms was going to get to it: NOT Oriental human subraces, but rather a warm-climate, dusty-part-desert old and decadent slave empire ruled by people who had mastered powerful magic, shaved their heads (think: Moondragon of Marvel Comics fame), and were cruel by western standards. There was a power struggle of sorts between royalty and nobility on one hand, and these magic-strong zulkirs on the other, with tharchions (and tharchionesses) being regional governors that in the old days were “patronage appointments” given to nobles by reigning royalty, and that were increasingly being seized by zulkirs and filled by themselves or their (militarily capable, ruthless) appointees. Szass Tam was a bit of a restless maverick among the zulkirs, so to stay on top against BOTH his fellow zulkirs and the royalty, he’d have to be super-powerful, and a man who’d been anticipating attacks and treacheries for centuries and preparing for them: he always had a Plan B and C, and X, Y, and Z, all of which he could shift like puzzle pieces to respond to any threat and deflect or shatter it (usually deflect it so as to harm a rival)."
The Old Empires are part of the original Realms but were swerved into more straightforward Earth analogues in Scott Bennie's version. The original Moonshaes are an Earthsea-inspired archipelago, and Flamsterd and some of the elements of FA1 Halls of the High King survive from it in the published Realms. Vaasa and Damara were planted in a glacier so didn't replace much.
I'll try to search through the compiled replies, tough that won't be easy ...
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9903B&L=REALMS-L&P=R22867&I=-3
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0004D&L=REALMS-L&P=R14187&I=-3
http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/sse/sse_010203-05.htm (search for "OLD EMPIRES")
I think flying ships were also somewhat more common then as presented in the published Realms - he had them in other places and not just in Halruaa. I know he was a fan of the Mystara setting (he did some work on it), so it stands to reason he liked the stories of The Princes Ark and used that in his Realms.
He also borrowed heavily from Michael Moorcock (his cosmology) and Lewis's Narnia - none of which was able to make it into the published Realms without a little 'doctoring-up'.
He also borrowed heavily from Michael Moorcock (his cosmology) and Lewis's Narnia - none of which was able to make it into the published Realms without a little 'doctoring-up'.
Never knew the cosmology was "stolen" from Moorcock but I definately see his influence on explaining the law vs chaos and morality vs apathy struggle in D&D. Brings in potential for epic plots and mysteries.
Likewise the original Mulhorand and Thay weren't influenced by Stygia closely enough for it to be an IP matter: a matter of feel rather than details.
Halruaan, elven and Netherese skyships are in the published Realms. "Sailors on the Sea of Air" in Dragon #124 does mention a few more, and TSR/Wizards probably did save the imagery for Mystara, Spelljammer and Eberron, though the Realms had 'em first. But see "Realmslore: The Lost Ship" on wizards.com.
You seem to be taking umbrage that Ed didn't exactly come up with everything on his own... which he didn't.
No-one does. There isn't an idea out there that someone else hasn't already used, and ED's a pretty damn well-read guy. Thats not meant to be derogatory - immitation is the sincerest form of flattery. When something is good, a good DM uses it.
And Gary stole more from Jack Vance then anywhere else.. but he's forgiven for it. Vance is THAT good...
there was Scott Bennie's updated version of the Old Empires, tough that site is down now
in my homebrew I always described Thay more oriental, but because Shou Lung is closer
I say Ed 'borrowed' from Moorcock, and yet Moorcock's very own Corum novels are lifted almost in their entirety from Celtic mythology (Corum is Nuada).
Everyone takes their ideas from elswhwere, most of the time subconciously.
I use those elemental and animal powers mentioned in Dragon 54, particularly the insect one (difficult spelling), as animal lords of Brux (Beastlands), totems.
I would trying to find a copy of the original (1st printing) 1e Deities & Demigids - later printings omitted two of the pantheons that TSR had IP issues with, but one was the Melnibonean, and you can see where Ed drew from.
Ed definately owned that tome - you can spot a good many of his gods thoughout, some with name changes (like Aphrodite and Hephaestus, who became Sune and Gond), and some with completely different portfolios (Tyr), and at least one like that with a sex change (Ilmater).
Thats still remains one of my all-time favorite D&D sources.
On the other hand, Ed's partly AD&Dized version of the Realms (including the Moorcockian elemental gods as placeholders for future D&D ones) wasn't intended for publication in its own right but for his campaigns. There used to be some Greyhawk fans who'd damn the Realms for 'stealing' things like the drow from their favourite world, as if DMs were supposed to replace all the game's elements in their home campaigns. Here there's the further twist that drow were one D&D element Ed didn't incorporate -- as you know (but we didn't learn this till the last couple of years), Ed had his own dark elves, and these were the ones who used to rule Shadowdale, kidnapped Sharantyr, and so on, till they were retconned into drow by Jeff Grubb and TSR. I enjoyed reading about Menzoberranzan, but I really wanted to see what was eventually published as Maerimydra. At least we get to glimpse Ed's dark elves in his new Niflheim novels (Dark Warrior Rising and Dark Vengeance so far).
I don't like showing players maps of Faerûn, because it's so easy to be hooked back into 21st-century ideas of space. Even after the grafting on of Kara-Tur, places like Thay are very much the 'exotic east' to folk of the Inner Sea lands, and while I'm glad we got to read about them, I prefer to use them as far, uncertain fables and not the kingdoms three doors along.
The eventual worldbuilding of the Realms still remains to be a shared work of love, and the subsequental material on drow has had such an impact I doubt Ed has any regrets.
John Clute wrote perceptively about this in his Encyclopedia of Fantasy, such as in the 'cauldron of story' entry. James Maliszewski's blog has a lot of good pondering on Gary's sources, if you're interested.
Seconded--I've been reading that blog.
They even had the same sickly-pale skin coloration. :D
Ed gives a nod to his 'Albino Drow' early in his 2e Drow of the Underdark.
And for what it's worth - Ed's doing the 'Dark Elves' for the Paizo/Pathfinder/Golarion World - I have a hunch if you want to see Ed's original, just read what he is doing with them on that world.
Sad that Ed's Drow had to find a new home, but at least we finally get to peak into the darker recesses of the man's mind.
18DELTA (Cyric is DA BOMB!)
The Drow city of Ehreli Cinthu (spelling error most likely) was in the original Realms, right?
I've never heard of that city (which is a Greyhawk locale) being in the Realms.
I have it included on my list of 'Dark Elven Locales' that I was going to do for the Elven Netbook, and I was going to mention the city, and perhaps the 'fell magics' that transferred it to another world.
The Drow were created on Toril, and then spread to other worlds. Very few were turned into Drow outside of Realmspace originally, because so few dark Elves existed outside of Realmspace. Anyhow, that factor, and the mention of Erelhei-Cinlu in the original DotU, is evidence that GH's Drow were originally from FR.
Also note that on Oerth (GH), you only have the Lolth-loving, matriarchal, wholly-evil Drow. IN FR, that type of Drow is only predominant in The North - elsewhere it appears Drow are far more... social... then the ones from the north-west of Faerûn. This is also indicative of a specific group from FR traveling to GH, rather then the culture as a whole, since it lacks the natural diversification that it should.
I would say this was all conjecture on my part... but there was that omitted entry from the GHotR. I have no idea what it said (it's considered NDA), but that fact that it was included in a book entirely on THE REALMS indicates to me that it was indeed located there at one time, or that Drow from Toril emigrated to Oerth and created the city.
I was going to use The Underland by way of explanation. I wasn't going to use the name though, because it's 3rd-party (even though Beyond Countless Doorways was written by the original Planescape team, and is EXCELLENT - I consider it neo-canon).
Basically, it's the Underdark's underdark - and it connects to all worlds.
I was planning on saying a group of VERY traditionalist Lolth-worshippers, being unhappy about the 'liberal reforms'(
!) of many Lolth-worshipping cities in the Realms, banded together in a group known as the Erelhei-Cinlu - literally menaing "observers of tradition".This would be the 'Orthodox' branch of the church of Lolth... if you can even imagine such a thing!
Anyhow, at first they would have just had small cults within the main chaurch, but the Matron-mothers (feeling their power-base being undermined) drove many of them out of the cities. These outcasts gathered others of like mind, and travelled into the deepest, darkest, un-explored recessess of the Underdark and founded their own city, using the name of their group for it.
For awhile, some contact between the traditionalist and the 'normal Drow' cities would continue, as disgruntled (think 'lesser siblings') females (and their male retainers) joined the other group in their new home. Unknown to both groups, the 'deep, dark passages' that they traversed was in reality a portal that lead between Toril and Oerth, and that Erelhei-Cinlu was actually now located on another world!
Then something happened... something unimaginable... wheather it happened on one end (the Sundering of Webs?), or both (the Rain of Colorless Fire?), the 'Pathways' between the worlds were closed forever, and now no contact between Erelhei-Cinlu and the Torillian Drow have occurred in many, many centuries.
That was the jist of it, at any rate. ;)
I could never think of Greyhawk drow as imports from Toril, either.
-Unfortunately, it's canon.
That's not unfortunate, because in my Realms, whatever I say goes, regardless of what's canon.
-It's not Rin canon. It is official canon, though.
What is? The aforementioned *omitted* GHotR entry or the city?
And I as said, I don't care if something isn't "canon,", I'm just discussing my thoughts, here--like everybody else.
I find that generally when Ed speaks of the Realms, he's likely to be speaking of his own Realms, just as a natural thing. Some things he says, like his writings on Chessenta, don't quite mesh with what we got, and seem to have come from a different culture. But he's careful not to speak of anything explicitly different, so the lore still works. Some things have leaked out however.
From Scott Bennie, writer of Old Empires, in his unofficial add-on: "It began, as this author recollects it with Ed Greenwood, the man who created Faerûn, with a few encounters between his adventurers and bald-headed priestesses of Set. Mulhorand was created by Ed as their land of origin." (Also: "Mulhorand, that land of the Forgotten Realms of Faerûn that some wish would not be..." Ha!)
I've heard Lurue was the goddess of magic too, not Mystra.
I could never think of Greyhawk drow as imports from Toril, either.
Bet Ed doesn't either.
It's only a single mention of the name in a list of example Drow cities. It could just be a common drow city name, and FR's Erelhei-Cinlu might be completely different.
Yes: it's pretty literal-minded to go from its presence on a 'handy play aid to draw names from' list, perhaps included out of thoroughness and duty to Gary's material, to assuming that means Oerik's Erelhei-Cinlu or any other is definitively in Faerûn.
I've heard Lurue was the goddess of magic too, not Mystra.
On that, see here (search for "Lurue").
What is? The aforementioned *omitted* GHotR entry or the city?
The entry, IIRC, was mentioned in a thread by George Krashos, who was attempting to do his usual wonderful job of plastering all the holes in FR's continuity.
Since the city was mentioned, FR Drow must have had some knowledge of that city, weather it originated with Torillian Drow or not. You can spin it any way you want, since the entry in the GHotR never appeared, but I believe LK is saying that the name in an FR source IS canon, which it is.
Anything regarding why it's in an FR source is pure conjecture, unless we somehow get the 'missing' info that was in the deleted entry.
My personal take - that entry was deleted because WotC wanted to keep the various settings seperate still - I note they also haven't mentioned any other GH-FR connections since 2e (like the two Khelbens).
While I love that all the worlds were inter-connected back in 2e, it did cause quite a few continuity conundrums (try saying THAT 5 times fast :P ), and in order to avoid them happening again, they are just ignoring all those old connections now.
What that means is, if they decide to do somthing with Spelljammer (or Planescape or even Ravenloft) in 4e, they will probably NOT mention any of the other official settings this time out (which I believe is how it was handled in 3e, by 3rd parties).
Of course, that defeats most of the cool aspect, as far as I'm concerned, so if they go that route, I certainly won't have any interest in that product (just as I didn't purchase any of the 3e Spelljammer stuff, because it wasn't connected to the TSR/WotC material in any way).
On the other hand, they SHOULD connect the worlds back together, even if it is just "sailing through the Astral" (or Shadowfel a'la Ravenloft), because one of the biggest snafus - the Weave - is now gone.
It will be interesting to see how they handle Eberron's Cosmology in 4e (I may even buy their CG) - I think that will be very telling as to weather they want to re-establish those connections or not.
Names and people, mind you, not cities. The headings 'Known House Names' and 'Known Drow Cities' don't limit them to FR, they could be known across the planes. There's nothing here specific to Toril.
We don't have a complete picture of what Ed's Realms were like in the pre-TSR days.
Pre TSR? I thought TSR started when chainmail was invented back in 74, so Greenwood had the concept of the realms even before D&D was invented?
Ed Greenwood was writing stories about Mirt and Elminster and the Realms back in the 60s, when he was around 8 years old. See "One Comes, Unheralded, To Zirta" in The Best Of The Realms 2: The Stories Of Ed Greenwood, one of his first tales. I haven't read it yet, but it seems quite good for an 8-year-old (unless he's rewritten it, of course, which would make sense).
That's right, Forgotten Realms predates D&D.