Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 barthalas Aug 30, 2008 13:34:22	So has anybody thought about how the Raven Queen might be imported into the Realms. I was thinking about making her a cult worshiped by non-Netheril Shadar-Kai. Any thoughts?
#2 krownhunter07 Aug 30, 2008 13:38:26	That sounds like a pretty cool idea. She'd be coming to blows with Kel or working together, in a fashion?
#3 Kensan_Oni Aug 30, 2008 13:42:44	On the one hand, the realms tends to hold hundreds of gods, even if they don't want to list them all, so I don't see any real issue with it. That said, though, her Portfolio is already possessed by the gods listed in the book. You'd probably be better of using those ones instead of the Raven Queen.
#4 lord_karsus Aug 30, 2008 13:46:49	-Not knowing anything about her, and only going on the guess that she is very death, cold, and darkness related, she could be an aspect of Shar, or perhaps a manifestation of Kelemvor, based on all of the "dark thoughts" that he has, but buries deep within himself, that sometimes escape.
#5 Thunaer Aug 30, 2008 13:58:11	Well i am out of practice but here it goes. The Raven Queen appeared in the Realms in the early years after the death of Mystra and the disasters following the Spellplague. Little is known about the goddess herself but there are rumors of a previous history with the current Lord of the Dead. With the Lords current militaristic bent it is possible that the two have begun sharing duties although leaders of both faiths are strangely silent on the matter.
#6 barthalas Aug 30, 2008 14:11:26	That sounds like a pretty cool idea. She'd be coming to blows with Kel or working together, in a fashion? I'd probably see her at odds with Kel since most of their portfolio overlap. Not sure though. I could also see her at odds with Shar as they fought for the worship of the Shadar-Kai. She might not even have power i the Realms yet. Maybe she is just a tale told by non-Netheril Shadar-Kai who have heard of her in remote tales from travelers to the Shadowfell. Personally, I've never liked Kelemvor and was hoping he had gotten replaced by the Raven Queen. Maybe that's something for the future of my campaign.
#7 barthalas Aug 30, 2008 14:15:27	-Not knowing anything about her, and only going on the guess that she is very death, cold, and darkness related, she could be an aspect of Shar, or perhaps a manifestation of Kelemvor, based on all of the "dark thoughts" that he has, but buries deep within himself, that sometimes escape. She is basically the goddess of death for the 4e core. Her area of influence are death, winter and fate. She also is basically the patron of Shadar-Kai in 4e core.
#8 barthalas Aug 30, 2008 14:16:57	On the one hand, the realms tends to hold hundreds of gods, even if they don't want to list them all, so I don't see any real issue with it. That said, though, her Portfolio is already possessed by the gods listed in the book. You'd probably be better of using those ones instead of the Raven Queen. Thanks for the suggestion but to be honest, I already know how NOT to use her. I made this posts for suggestions on how TO use her.
#9 unfamiliar Aug 30, 2008 14:35:24	To be honest, I'd just use Kelemvor - but if you're really attached to the Raven Queen, you could simply choose to spin her as an aspect of Kelemvor, as he appears to the Shadar-Kai. Since you're looking to go with a "cult" feel as opposed to a more orthodox religion, it seems to fit. There's even a good premise for it, with the elven deities Hanali Celanil & Aerdrie Faenya revealed as none other than Sune & the primordial Akadi, respectively.
#10 krownhunter07 Aug 30, 2008 14:37:12	I think throwing her into the mix is a great idea, if you plan to spin some adventures in that use it.
#11 lord_karsus Aug 30, 2008 15:36:26	She is basically the goddess of death for the 4e core. Her area of influence are death, winter and fate. She also is basically the patron of Shadar-Kai in 4e core. -Close enough. What I was saying based on by basic guesses still hold, should you (or someone else) choose to elaborate on them. You could also have her an ascended mortal, as well.
#12 Therise Aug 30, 2008 16:06:53	Have her worship originate with one of the imported races from Abeir. Perhaps she's a big time deity on Abeir (as a way to fit her into the Realms), maybe even worshipped by the new dragonkin. That way you can add her in at the time of the Spellplague, and have her worship accessible to the PC races as she's had 100 years to filter slowly into other Faerunian cultures.
#13 lord_karsus Aug 30, 2008 16:09:48	-And Ninjas! She needs Ninjas! The Raven Queen has an order of assassin Ninjas!
#14 Therise Aug 30, 2008 16:15:12	-And Ninjas! She needs Ninjas! The Raven Queen has an order of assassin Ninjas! Super shadowy Shadar-Kai ninjas! :D
#15 umbralknight Aug 30, 2008 17:02:42	As long as we are brainstorming, you could make her the until-now-unseen patron of the Order of the Long Death.
#16 krownhunter07 Aug 30, 2008 21:17:48	As long as we are brainstorming, you could make her the until-now-unseen patron of the Order of the Long Death. Or a userpur... I like this idea.
#17 Belorin Aug 30, 2008 21:40:03	It may sound corny, but... Upon being murdered, Mystra's essence fragments and a portion enters the Shadowfell. Seeking to hide from Shar, she takes up the mantle of the Raven Queen, who becomes a powerful exarch of Kelemvor's, who actually knows who she is. Kelemvor gives her the task of bringing the souls of the dead to the Fugue Plain, which in turn piques the interest of Orcus who seeks to sway her to work for him or force her to if neccessary. The real goal of the Raven Queen and Kelemvor is to recover more 'fragments' of Mystra's essence and return her to something closer to her former self. Bel
#18 Thunaer Aug 30, 2008 23:00:16	It may sound corny, but... Upon being murdered, Mystra's essence fragments and a portion enters the Shadowfell. Seeking to hide from Shar, she takes up the mantle of the Raven Queen, who becomes a powerful exarch of Kelemvor's, who actually knows who she is. Kelemvor gives her the task of bringing the souls of the dead to the Fugue Plain, which in turn piques the interest of Orcus who seeks to sway her to work for him or force her to if neccessary. The real goal of the Raven Queen and Kelemvor is to recover more 'fragments' of Mystra's essence and return her to something closer to her former self. Bel I agree, having Mystra be the Raven Queen is a great idea for those that wish to keep her in the Realms I like the idea of them sharing the work myself with maybe adding neutral Warlocks to her worshipers. (Perhaps former followers seeking to regain the ties they once had to their Queen?)
#19 krownhunter07 Aug 30, 2008 23:04:50	Can you really see the former GoM becoming a deity of emos?
#20 Belorin Aug 30, 2008 23:19:04	Ah, but it's a fragment, maybe the part that still has feelings for Kelemvor and she appeals to the more unaligned Shadar-kai, those looking for something other than pain, piercings and servitude. Or it could be she is not ready to resume her position, maybe due to Shar blocking the rise of a new GoM. Bel
#21 Dark_Wizard_02 Aug 30, 2008 23:24:28	Can you really see the former GoM becoming a deity of emos? Have you seen visual depictions of Mystra? It fits the look.
#22 krownhunter07 Aug 30, 2008 23:27:46	Have you seen visual depictions of Mystra? It fits the look. Ha, you got me there... it's a good idea for someone wanting a way to get her back... I bet it would be an awesome campaign. Not sure how the OP wants to use her though.
#23 krownhunter07 Aug 30, 2008 23:28:39	Ah, but it's a fragment, maybe the part that still has feelings for Kelemvor and she appeals to the more unaligned Shadar-kai, those looking for something other than pain, piercings and servitude. Or it could be she is not ready to resume her position, maybe due to Shar blocking the rise of a new GoM. Bel Good points and it makes sense.
#24 Thunaer Aug 31, 2008 0:32:12	Its an interesting way to get the Queen into the Realms while giving a slight nod to a beloved character. The only one who has to know who the Queen really is Kelemvor and the Dm. In the later stages of your campaign you could have the option of the players eventually discovering the link and dealing with the consequences of knowing,
#25 Charles_Phipps Aug 31, 2008 0:42:41	Actually, I already use the Raven Queen in my games. Raven Queen Exarch of Kelemvor Portfolio: Dusk, Necromancy, Fate Alignment: Unaligned She's currently at war with Auril over Winter. The Raven Queen is believed to be either the human soul of Midnight or a imported goddess. It is the Raven Queen's Role to serve as the person who determines the time and place for all citizens of the Realm's Deaths as opposed to leaving it up to free will. Many Diviners are coming to worship her.
#26 Dark_Wizard_02 Aug 31, 2008 1:02:25	Incidentally, these thoughts about the Raven Queen are very similar to how I treat Midnight/Mystra in my campaign (or did anyway). She was heavily based on Wee Jas (which the Raven Queen seems based on), since I grew to like her take on that specific set of portfolios. Hadn't thought of the Kelemvor angle though.
#27 angelus_obscura Aug 31, 2008 1:29:36	Actually, the Raven Queen does not care about the Shadar-kai. She doesn't care about anything, except the hatred towards undead and anything the prolongs life past their time. Here is how I'd put her in the Realms (using real world mythologies). -The raven is a symbol of death, and guides souls to the afterlife. -in Greek myth, Hades had a consort, a Queen of the Underworld. The Raven Queen can actually be Kelemvor's Exarch or consort. A goddess who comes to collect the souls of the dead, and guide/carry them to the Fugue Plane, to be judged by Kel. piccy
#28 jestertoris Aug 31, 2008 2:16:24	In the MM, the Shadar'kai are all about serving the Raven Queen. In the game I play I've had my character go through a ritual to become a Shadar'kai to become closer to the Raven Queen. Why not make The Raven Queen a mortal woman turned immortal, that Kelemvor made his bride. She deals with the mortals while Kelemvor deals with more godly aspects. She can dwell in the Shadow lands and so forth. I also see it as the High priests of The Raven Queen preform rituals to become closer to her. "The Ritual of Shadar". I have a clan of "Dark Ones" assist as assassins and spies for the clerics of the temple and they protect portals to the Shadow Lands.
#29 the_shaman Aug 31, 2008 5:59:19	I think that Fate and Necromancy are more Jergal's purviews, and I would be willing to give him seniority over her. Still, she can work as an exarch of some sort - I suppose their portfolios may have some overlap.
#30 suin_bahhar_02 Aug 31, 2008 7:37:51	Some great ideas here. Having Jergal appoint this mortal to become the Raven Queen exarch and consort for Kelemvor is more creepy aswell, because Jergals real motives are clouded still.
#31 romulus_lonewolf Aug 31, 2008 7:58:32	I agree with the Exarch idea. It's the simplest, most elegent solution to the problem, really.
#32 DreamStalker Aug 31, 2008 9:36:48	She can be a porcelain skinned young woman, with raven hair, eye of Horus make-up on her left eye, and wear silver ankh around her neck. And the only sign of her presence could be hearing the "Beat of Her Wings". Cookie to whoever gets the reference. death
#33 Harn_Winterfell Aug 31, 2008 14:09:14	Actually, the Raven Queen does not care about the Shadar-kai. She doesn't care about anything, except the hatred towards undead and anything the prolongs life past their time. Here is how I'd put her in the Realms (using real world mythologies). -The raven is a symbol of death, and guides souls to the afterlife. -in Greek myth, Hades had a consort, a Queen of the Underworld. The Raven Queen can actually be Kelemvor's Exarch or consort. A goddess who comes to collect the souls of the dead, and guide/carry them to the Fugue Plane, to be judged by Kel. piccy
#34 Therise Aug 31, 2008 14:32:40	So like Neil Gaiman's image of Death then eh? That would be an interesting approach to the death goddess, but from the Raven Queen's description in the 4E material I don't really get that for her. What I get from the 4E material, I think they were going more for the Norse goddess Hel (or Hella) - perhaps because of the Raven element. Of course, I know that ravens have typically been associated with death and Death. But the Neil Gaiman version (as cool as it is) seems very modernized, perhaps too modernized, for the Realms.
#35 Charles_Phipps Aug 31, 2008 15:30:26	You could also make a Morrigan analogy.
#36 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Aug 31, 2008 20:14:46	So has anybody thought about how the Raven Queen might be imported into the Realms. I was thinking about making her a cult worshiped by non-Netheril Shadar-Kai. Any thoughts? Just plop her in there. Your cult idea would work.
#37 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Aug 31, 2008 20:17:15	-Not knowing anything about her, and only going on the guess that she is very death, cold, and darkness related... The core Raven Queen is the goddess of Death, Fate, and Winter. One could probably find a way to squeeze her in somewhere. After all, although the 4E FR was designed to do away with "redundant" deities, the pre-Spellplague realms featured many different pantheons, all with similar deities.
#38 angelus_obscura Aug 31, 2008 21:12:52	That would be an interesting approach to the death goddess, but from the Raven Queen's description in the 4E material I don't really get that for her. What I get from the 4E material, I think they were going more for the Norse goddess Hel (or Hella) - perhaps because of the Raven element. Of course, I know that ravens have typically been associated with death and Death. But the Neil Gaiman version (as cool as it is) seems very modernized, perhaps too modernized, for the Realms. Well, the Raven Queen can be all those things. You have to take note that Neil Gaiman's Death, a primordial Endless being, has many names in the Sandmanverse: Hel, Morrigan, Uriel, etc. Even Morpheus had alternate names according to the culture. I would make the Raven Queen an ancient, pre-Jergal force, a primordial who embodies Death itself, not just the job. As Morpheus is Dream, the Raven Queen is just another name for Death.
#39 Therise Aug 31, 2008 21:15:47	Well, the Raven Queen can be all those things. You have to take note that Neil Gaiman's Death, a primordial Endless being, has many names in the Sandmanverse: Hel, Morrigan, Uriel, etc. Even Morpheus had alternate names according to the culture. I would make the Raven Queen an ancient, pre-Jergal force, a primordial who embodies Death itself, not just the job. As Morpheus is Dream, the Raven Queen is just another name for Death. I agree, but the "Raven Queen" myth and imagery still needs to be convincingly and sensibly well-integrated into a specific culture or cultures, imo.
#40 angelus_obscura Aug 31, 2008 21:38:59	Oh, I have another idea. Why not set her up in the same cave Dendar the Night Serpent slept in, cloaked and hooded, with a large loom before her. She is there weaving and cutting threads, with a half finished tapestry that goes off into the depths of the cave. :D
#41 lord_karsus Aug 31, 2008 21:39:23	-I'd demote her to Exarch status, and have her serve Kelemvor as the Forgotten Realms' "Grim Reaper". She's in charge of bringing souls to Kelemvor, to judge. That's what I'd do.
#42 Therise Aug 31, 2008 21:51:18	Oh, I have another idea. Why not set her up in the same cave Dendar the Night Serpent slept in, cloaked and hooded, with a large loom before her. She is there weaving and cutting threads, with a half finished tapestry that goes off into the depths of the cave. :D That's a great image, I like it.
#43 Belorin Aug 31, 2008 22:17:43	-I'd demote her to Exarch status, and have her serve Kelemvor as the Forgotten Realms' "Grim Reaper". She's in charge of bringing souls to Kelemvor, to judge. That's what I'd do. Sounds familiar. Bel
#44 lord_karsus Aug 31, 2008 22:25:28	Sounds familiar. Bel -Nope. That's wholly original in this thread, and was not mentioned.
#45 Belorin Sep 01, 2008 3:09:29	-Nope. That's wholly original in this thread, and was not mentioned. I bow to your superior threadsense. Bel
#46 barthalas Sep 01, 2008 8:23:52	Thanks for all the suggestions. My latest thought is have her get her foot in the door (so to speak) by being the power source for a group of "free" Shadar-Kai Warlocks. From there she could progress to Exarch status but that would be many years in the future. It's very similar to the Warlock Knights of Vaasa and their "patron". This way I could bring her into the Realms and the Shadar-Kai but not disrupt the existing Pantheon (god know it's been disrupted enough...) How does that sound?
#47 lord_karsus Sep 01, 2008 16:08:56	I bow to your superior threadsense. Bel -Good call, on your part. This way I could bring her into the Realms and the Shadar-Kai but not disrupt the existing Pantheon (god know it's been disrupted enough...) -Shadar-Kai already exist in the setting. Usually, though, when you bring a race into the setting in a non-disrupting manner, it's not much of a big deal. Goliaths were added in, for instance, and the boat did not rock. If you are connecting the Shadar-Kai to the Raven Queen, she could be their patron, have it be that she was always their patron, and that's that.
#48 naex Sep 01, 2008 19:02:18	-Good call, on your part. -Shadar-Kai already exist in the setting. Usually, though, when you bring a race into the setting in a non-disrupting manner, it's not much of a big deal. Goliaths were added in, for instance, and the boat did not rock. If you are connecting the Shadar-Kai to the Raven Queen, she could be their patron, have it be that she was always their patron, and that's that. It's when you drop them in en masse (i.e. Dragonborn) that the screaming starts.
#49 lord_karsus Sep 01, 2008 20:09:18	It's when you drop them in en masse (i.e. Dragonborn) that the screaming starts. -Yes, and no. Having some brand new race appear, suddenly, on some island that was previously though deserted? Okay, well, I guess it wasn't as deserted as first thought. Having them literally "dropped" in over something else? Not the best idea. -For the Shadari-Kai, for example, I'd say that perhaps some Shadar-Kai slaves from Chaulssin escaped the city, and founded their own realm in the Underdark, slowly, aiding others in escaping/coming to the Material Plane.
#50 barthalas Sep 01, 2008 20:13:26	-Good call, on your part. -Shadar-Kai already exist in the setting. Usually, though, when you bring a race into the setting in a non-disrupting manner, it's not much of a big deal. Goliaths were added in, for instance, and the boat did not rock. If you are connecting the Shadar-Kai to the Raven Queen, she could be their patron, have it be that she was always their patron, and that's that. No, no.... I wasn't saying bring the Shadar-Kai into the setting (I know they are already there). I was saying bring the Raven Queen into the setting and then bring her to the Shadar-Kai. Guess that wasn't clear. ;)
#51 lord_karsus Sep 01, 2008 20:15:55	Guess that wasn't clear. ;) -No, it wasn't. But, the latter point I made still stands: If you are connecting the Shadar-Kai to the Raven Queen, she could be their patron, have it be that she was always their patron, and that's that.
#52 barthalas Sep 01, 2008 21:27:04	-No, it wasn't. But, the latter point I made still stands: If you are connecting the Shadar-Kai to the Raven Queen, she could be their patron, have it be that she was always their patron, and that's that. Wouldn't that then mean I have to completely invalidate the tie to Netheril and Shar?
#53 naex Sep 01, 2008 21:30:27	Wouldn't that then mean I have to completely invalidate the tie to Netheril and Shar? No, the Shades just kidnapped and bred their own Shadar-Kai, turning the Shadar-Kai away from there true Patroness
#54 lord_karsus Sep 01, 2008 23:41:18	Wouldn't that then mean I have to completely invalidate the tie to Netheril and Shar? -No. Plenty of Shadar-Kai exist in the Forgotten Realms that have nothing to do with the Shadovar. The captives of Chaulssin, as I highlighted before. The Raven Queen can simply be the patroness of the Shadar-Kai. If there are Shadar-Kai that are in the service of Shade now, they can be converters to the worship of Shar. Or, the Shadar-Kai serve both deities, and those specific Shadar-Kai serve Shar, while others serve the Raven Queen.
#55 creyzi4zb12 May 16, 2009 14:14:16	BUMP: I noticed some ideas here abou The Raven Queen being an essence of Midnight...I thought the Raven Queen was one of the oldest gods? In fact she's so old, her name has been forgotten already. Perhaps she's even older than Shar?
#56 lord_karsus May 16, 2009 16:13:10	BUMP: I noticed some ideas here abou The Raven Queen being an essence of Midnight...I thought the Raven Queen was one of the oldest gods? In fact she's so old, her name has been forgotten already. Perhaps she's even older than Shar? -All of that is from the Core books, which is to be thrown out as soon as you "enter" the Forgotten Realms, starting from scratch. Completely different things.
#57 markustay63 May 17, 2009 13:24:04	You are the Raven Queen, young and sweet, only seventeen Raven Queen, feel the beat from the tambourine You can dance, you can jive, having the time of your life See that girl, watch that scene, dig in the Raven Queen. With apologies to ABBA... Then again... maybe not... mine's an improvement. :P
#58 redglacier May 18, 2009 12:40:59	BUMP: I noticed some ideas here abou The Raven Queen being an essence of Midnight... Really? Neat! I did something like this, since in my homebrew, Mystra didn't die, but the spellplague still happened(as a result of her absorbing the Shadow Weave, which Shar had crafted to act as a poison/plague when Mystra absorbed it). Midnight's still-mortal mindset couldn't take the strain, and she "rejected" her divine mantle. She was saved by Kelemvor, and after the period of divine slaughter/merging/absorption that followed the Spellplague, she ends up like this: Midnight -Titles:The Soulguide, Savior of Lost Souls, The Raven Queen, Uncorrupted Shadow, Death's Beloved -Status:Lesser Goddess("Exarch" in 4E) -Alignment:Neutral Good(leaning to True Neutral) -Transitive Plane/Home Plane/Domain Name:Shadowfell/The Fugue Plane/Letherna -Portfolio:Lost Souls, patron of Good and (some)Neutral users of the shadow power source -Superior:Kelemvor -Allies:Kelemvor, Jergal, Mystra -Foes:Cyric, Shar, Mask, nondeities who claim mortal souls, those who imprison souls -Personal Weapon:Unshackled Soul(sickle) -Midnight's Avatar:INCOMPLETE -Other Manifestations:INCOMPLETE -The Church- -Symbol:A raven with white beak and legs -Worshipper Alignment:Any non-evil -Clergy Alignment:Any non-evil -Favored Weapon:Sickle -General:INCOMPLETE -Dogma:INCOMPLETE -Day-to-day Activities:INCOMPLETE -Holy Days/Important Ceremonies:INCOMPLETE -Major Centers of Worship:The Raven Hall, located east of Elventree(in the Dales, east of Hillsfar), Is the biggest temple of Midnight on the face of Toril, but also doubles as one of Faerun's main Shadowcaster school. It was built over the ruins of the House of Mysteries, a former site of Mystran faith which was destroyed by the Zentharim in 1374 DR. -Affiliated Orders:INCOMPLETE -Priestly Vestment:INCOMPLETE -Adventuring Garb:INCOMPLETE The church has 2 branches. One helps run many of Toril's shadow-user schools. The other helps the lost/restless souls of the dead pass on when needed(kinda like these guys--WARNING: not for the squeamish, or kids for that matter--), as well as freeing imprisoned souls.
#59 krownhunter07 May 18, 2009 18:01:25	Here's an update from my game, I put it on Twitter awhile ago, but thought to put it here for the OP. The Raven Queen is a suspected interloper deity (I haven't decided if she is Mystra or not, I'm leaning toward not at the present...) that came in as consort to Kelemvor. She was given the portfolio over death, while he retains it for the dead. Basically, she makes sure they die, collects them up in the Shadowfell, and sends them to Kelemvor. Since the Spellplague, she has (peacefully) usurped dominion over winter and fate. *One of my players wished to be a Cleric of her, so I did this instead of saying no. It has worked out wonderfully so far and it makes using the Core adventures all the more easier.