So where does the raw magic originate, is there a place in the Great Wheel, is this like the ether or phlogiston or something else, what creatures would inhabit it?
So where does the raw magic originate, is there a place in the Great Wheel, is this like the ether or phlogiston or something else, what creatures would inhabit it?
-Mystra. While she is considered a deity, I personally think she would be better suited as a non-divine entity that was primarily concerned about proliferating magic.
What is it you want to know, exactly?
As to where magic comes from; it primates everything (think of it like the force). The Weave is a godly manifestation of a framework for magic that allows to to be used (with supervision) by mortals.
isn't she just a connection to the raw magic?
-Without Mystra's assistance (ie, the Weave) mortals can't access magic without literally and figuratively hurting themselves. Effectively, without Mystra (and presuming that no other entity steps in her place to fill her role), there is no magic for the most part. A few minor traditions of magic (Maztica's Pluma and Hishna magic, primarily) have harnessed the power of magic without Mystra, but we do not know how, or to what effects.
-As to where pure magical energy, Raw Magic, comes from...Nowhere, and everywhere. It simply is. Perhaps Ao is Raw Magic (hence why in some Crystal Spheres, it is stronger/weaker than others). Perhaps the pure energy that created each individual Crystal Sphere when everything was created is that Raw Magic. Perhaps there is some kind of massive multispheric entity that is nearly invisible, that provides magical energy to all Crystal Spheres, kind of like a thread holding a string of beads. Perhaps the raw energy that is emitted from the various planes is the source.
Oh... well... I'm not an expert on 2e FR, but I'll help if I can.
What is it you want to know, exactly?
As to where magic comes from; it primates everything (think of it like the force). The Weave is a godly manifestation of a framework for magic that allows to to be used (with supervision) by mortals.
Any edition would do, I mostly don't play with the D&D rules, but some of the TSR products are good sources of fantastic information.
It's for a home setting, a plane of magic exactly, full of anomalies and weirdness, just researching is there something similar. The Feywild would be the best candidate from the 4th edition, however it's undetailed, a bunch of names and too woodsy.
-Without Mystra's assistance (ie, the Weave) mortals can't access magic without literally and figuratively hurting themselves. Effectively, without Mystra (and presuming that no other entity steps in her place to fill her role), there is no magic for the most part. A few minor traditions of magic (Maztica's Pluma and Hishna magic, primarily) have harnessed the power of magic without Mystra, but we do not know how, or to what effects.
-As to where pure magical energy, Raw Magic, comes from...Nowhere, and everywhere. It simply is. Perhaps Ao is Raw Magic (hence why in some Crystal Spheres, it is stronger/weaker than others). Perhaps the pure energy that created each individual Crystal Sphere when everything was created is that Raw Magic. Perhaps there is some kind of massive multispheric entity that is nearly invisible, that provides magical energy to all Crystal Spheres, kind of like a thread holding a string of beads. Perhaps the raw energy that is emitted from the various planes is the source.
I'll take these ideas into consideration, thank you, however I don't like that a single being is the source, but a place, that can be visited by the players.
Umbral (Shadow) Energy would therefore = Dark Matter
While one constantly tries to expand the universe, the other is trying to return it to it's original state.
Sounds quasi-scientific. ;)
I look at it this way - somehow in the distant past, Toril was stripped of it's 'natural filter' that nearly every world has. Think of it like the Ozone Layer, but more ethereal. It basically 'blocks out' all the harmful stuff that 'magical radiation' can do to people (I wonder if we can get Sun block for that? :P Dweomer-block?)
Anyhow, whatever disaster caused that (take your pick.. as for me, I blame it on the Elves, just like everything else), Raw Magic was no longer able to be handled by ordinary mortals anymore, so Mystra (who may have only been created moments before.. who knows?) erected the Weave - a new, artifical 'filter' that allowed Mages to access magical energies without frying themselves.
Over the course of thousands upon thousands of years, Mystra has tinkered with the weave, allowing it to do certain things beyond it's original function (like give powerful entities the ability to deliver spells more easily to their followers, or allow mortals to cast spells beyond 9th level, etc). Sometimes, like Prohibition, she has gone back and taken out things she had added (like that ability to cast Uber-spells)... she is constantly upgrading the version of the Weave (which is why I liken it to a massive computer interface).
Then Mystra died... for good... and everyone discovered something... the Mana-filter that is natural to all worlds had been slowing repairing itself all these millenium!
Mages must now learn new ways to manipulate arcane forces, but they are able to access the magic directly now. This means it is harder for them to learn control (less spells on-hand), but the control they do achieve allows they greater usage of what they have learned.
So the Weave was a massive film placed over Realmspace's Crystal Sphere, with all sorts of rules of its own built-in. An artifical construct ruled by Mystra, and now gone with her demise.
I suppose that would mean that Phlogiston could be interpretted as 'Raw Magic', although how to get that to work with the Spelljammer rules is beyond me.
I look at it this way - somehow in the distant past, Toril was stripped of it's 'natural filter' that nearly every world has. Think of it like the Ozone Layer, but more ethereal. It basically 'blocks out' all the harmful stuff that 'magical radiation' can do to people (I wonder if we can get Sun block for that? :P Dweomer-block?)
Anyhow, whatever disaster caused that (take your pick.. as for me, I blame it on the Elves, just like everything else), Raw Magic was no longer able to be handled by ordinary mortals anymore, so Mystra (who may have only been created moments before.. who knows?) erected the Weave - a new, artifical 'filter' that allowed Mages to access magical energies without frying themselves.
-I agree with most of that, except for the above part. We don't know that, as you say, Realmspace was stripped of it's natural filter because of some sort of event. For all we know, Realmspace's pervasive raw magical energy is simply more concentrated than other places, causing the need for Mystra and her Weave. That is, since we don't know, natural explanations that don't involve explosions (not in the literal sense, but you know how things often go 'boom') work just as well. Personally speaking, I prefer the explanations that don't involve metaphorical explosions.
I added that bit because of 4e, since most of my retcon explanations rely of the "things are back to the way they were meant to be" argument (and I've discussed this with Ed, and he agrees with that - Toril has been 'returned' to an earlier, more natural state now).
If you recall, my old theory was that Realmspace was 'special' - it was the original Prime World, and was the launching-point for so many lifeforms. That was my former explanation of why Toril's raw magic was so much stronger then elsewhere.
However, I dropped that in favor of the "it was broken before, and now it's not" approach. Between the War of Light and Darkness, the Abeirran split, and the Sundering, we have plenty of canon instances wherin Toril was changed in a major way. Add to that all the portals (read: places where the fabric of reality is thin) and that 'tear' from Elminster in Hell, it appears that the Weave was designed to 'hold-back' the rest of the universe from just pouring right into FR.
That desn't sound to me like a natural state - it sounds more like something was weakened way back at the beginning of time, and it was Mystra's job to keep a 'fix' in-place.
Well, if FR had 'more' of this energy, then why haven't 4e mages burnt themselves out?
-Being as that the 4e changes were designed specifically to implement the 4e rules and design mantra (the latter being the more important part), and this is a 4e change...Two and two adds up to four. You of all people (being one of the most vociferous to point it out) should know that explanations need not necessarily apply (or make sense) when something needs to be done (in this case, remove Mystra, but continue having magic).
-Ultimatley, there is a lack of evidence in the idea that some sort of cataclysm necessitated Mystra coming into existence and patching/altering the way magic worked.
So then Raw Magic = Dark Energy
Umbral (Shadow) Energy would therefore = Dark Matter
While one constantly tries to expand the universe, the other is trying to return it to it's original state.
Sounds quasi-scientific.
that's a good possibility, however don't you need both light and the dark for shadow, how about Raw Magic = Infinite Energy, the Weave = the Matrix (pseudo-scientific)
I look at it this way - somehow in the distant past, Toril was stripped of it's 'natural filter' that nearly every world has. Think of it like the Ozone Layer, but more ethereal. It basically 'blocks out' all the harmful stuff that 'magical radiation' can do to people (I wonder if we can get Sun block for that? :P Dweomer-block?)[
Anyhow, whatever disaster caused that (take your pick.. as for me, I blame it on the Elves, just like everything else), Raw Magic was no longer able to be handled by ordinary mortals anymore, so Mystra (who may have only been created moments before.. who knows?) erected the Weave - a new, artifical 'filter' that allowed Mages to access magical energies without frying themselves.
wasn't the Weave there from the beginning of the universe?
I suppose that would mean that Phlogiston could be interpretted as 'Raw Magic', although how to get that to work with the Spelljammer rules is beyond me.
There's phlogiston in D&D? is it the same as the Ethereal Plane?
-In my own setting (which is not the Forgotten Realms, so implement ideas at your own risk), I use the the "Magical energy is the pervasive energy left over from the 'big bang'" concept.
what parts of the Forgotten Realms do you include in your own setting, I'm researching of adding some too
wasn't the Weave there from the beginning of the universe?
AFAIK, the Weave was created by Mystra, who DID NOT exist at the beginning - she was created during the War of Light and Darkness. We have NO IDEA when that occurred, except that it occurred before -35,000 DR, and we have no idea at what point she created the Weave (for all we know, the Creator Races existed without the Weave).
There's phlogiston in D&D? is it the same as the Ethereal Plane?
I thought that was what you were talking about... the term 'Phlogiston' existed before Spelljammer?
The Phlogiston is this 'stuff' which exists between material planes (spheres), but NOT between the Outer and Inner Planes (that would be the Ethereal and Astral Planes). Its a sort-of silvery mist that exists in space, and is highly combustible (which could mean its sensitive to magic... but the SJ rules do not hint at any such thing).
phlogiston is from the 17th century, like the reverse-entropy
It's for a home setting, a plane of magic exactly, full of anomalies and weirdness, just researching is there something similar. The Feywild would be the best candidate from the 4th edition, however it's undetailed, a bunch of names and too woodsy.
Limbo? (check sources like the Planes of Chaos). Mystryl is possibly the original Weave, so her realm, the Dweomertor, could be the place you're looking for. There is no information on it, you'd have to make up most of the stuff. Now for the creatures, there are firestars, wizshades etc. but I'll have to look which sources exactly.
what parts of the Forgotten Realms do you include in your own setting, I'm researching of adding some too
-Very little. A few names, and a few deities.
AFAIK, the Weave was created by Mystra, who DID NOT exist at the beginning - she was created during the War of Light and Darkness. We have NO IDEA when that occurred, ecept that it occurred before -35,000 DR, and we have no idea at what point she created the Weave (for all we know, the Creator Races existed without the Weave).
-Mystryl.
I don't know about the Forgotten Realms, and I want to use the Weave
So where does the raw magic originate, is there a place in the Great Wheel, is this like the ether or phlogiston or something else, what creatures would inhabit it?
Raw Magic pretty much permeates everything, think the Force only more expansive. Pre-spellplague, the Weave permits relatively safe and reliable access for mortals. It's not the only way to do things but it is the most versatile and well known. Various insanities associated with 4E removed the Weave but still left access though magic now works quite differently.
Explanations beyond that become a little interesting, lack of much detail. I'm partial to the idea that Toril has a bit too much magical energy on hand leading to trouble if you don't have a filter in place. 4E by removing the filter forced mages to try and figure out how to create their own filtering systems. Psions pulled it in 3.5 so I don't consider particularly problematic to do.
--Mystryl.
Nah-unh.
I found a NETHEREASE temple to Mystra in source. :P
Mystryl was just a lie told to young mages to teach them about Hubris. :D
Besides, nothing says that there couldn't have been a Mystra before Mystryl - we only know of three versions of her, and all happened fairly recently (in terms of Toril's age). I would be willing to bet money that Mystryl was NOT the first incarnation of the goddess of magic.
Technically, Lurue was, probably before humans even became civilized. I still think some form of alien or reptilian being should hae had the post first, though.
Nah-unh.
I found a NETHEREASE temple to Mystra in source. :P
-Wow. Just goes to show, I guess, that lore hiccups are not a 3e/4e phenomenon.
Besides, nothing says that there couldn't have been a Mystra before Mystryl - we only know of three versions of her, and all happened fairly recently (in terms of Toril's age). I would be willing to bet money that Mystryl was NOT the first incarnation of the goddess of magic.
-Well, the stories say that Selûne and Shar created Mystryl, so...If there was a Mystra, it wouldn't be the same entity that was created as Mystryl. Other than that, we have no other stories that explain magic, really.
Technically, Lurue was, probably before humans even became civilized. I still think some form of alien or reptilian being should hae had the post first, though.
-I don't think that's necessary when you keep in mind one thing: Mystra is not inherently a Human deity. Races all over Abeir-Toril worship her, and even those who don't still (mostly) get their magical power from her. Right now, Humans are the "primary" race inhabiting the planet. And, as such, she is very..."Humany". In the past, when Dragons primarily inhabited the planet, or Elves, or whatever other races, it is very possible that she was more "Draconic" than "Humany", or "Elven" than "Humany", and so on. She was never a mortal, so she could be morphic, in terms of who worshiped her, what they worshiped her as, and what she appeared to them as.
-Wow. Just goes to show, I guess, that lore hiccups are not a 3e/4e phenomenon.
No, it is...
I found it in one of those three 'super-modules' that came out near the end of 3e. IIRC, it was where Augathra the mad was hiding (not entirely sure about that part, but I am sure it was a Netherease temple of Mystra, which I found hilarious).
No, it is...
I found it in one of those three 'super-modules' that came out near the end of 3e. IIRC, it was where Augathra the mad was hiding (not entirely sure about that part, but I am sure it was a Netherease temple of Mystra, which I found hilarious).
-Oh...Well, in that case, I'm sure it's possible for non 3e/4e materials to have lore hiccups, even though 3e and 4e have the most.
Old is relative.
-I can only speak for myself, when I don't speak for others. And, hundreds of years is quite old, yes. Even in terms of Elves, being hundreds of years old is still old.