If you don't serve any deity then you get put into the Wall of the Faithless, and in 10 days or less are consumed by it.
What the hell? So it's like saying you become a void of nothingness no matter of the individual you are? So do most people live in FR not know of this? Or do most serve a diety as a global population?
I'm pretty sure everyone in Faerun knows this. It's something that'd get pounded into the skulls of everyone within earshot by every single priest, cleric, or holy man of every single faith all across Faerun.
-IF they know.
It is like the concept of Hell, but in FR it really exists.
It is like the concept of Hell, but in FR it really exists.
-The concept of Hell already exists. Nine of them! Plus an infinite Abysses!
It has been shown in the game that a LOT of people a quite unhappy with this treatment including:
- A person who worships spirits rather than gods. He considers that a form of divine bullying and even refuses to change his allegiances.
- A half celestial cleric of Illmater (god of martyrs, want to help those who suffer) ex cleric of Kelemvor. She quit the job finding this treatment cruel. Yes, even religious characters find it cruel.
- People who either are or have atheist loved ones.
It should be noted that this system occasionly also screws people who were faithful all their life: If your god dies, you better convert fast or you're boned.
There have been tries to get rid of it by different parties (possibly including the player character according to choices) but none were successfull. From an alignment perspective, the wall is mainly supported by lawful neutral, evil, and occasionly good people while it is reviled by neutral good, chaotic good or chaotic neutral parties.
Apparently, most gods don't want it to go. They think that if it dissapears, people will just stop worshipping them. But then, to be honest, considering a good 60 % of problems in the Realms are their fault anyway and their track record is somewhat less than adecquate, I perfectly understand the performance anxiety.
My sources were a mix of the Forgoten Realms manual, some FR novels, wikipedia and the game.
-The Neverwinter Nights games are not canon. The fact that there was a plague in Neverwinter, and that the Netherese enclave of Undrentide are canon, but nothing else.
the plague in Neverwinter is canon?
the plague in Neverwinter is canon?
-Yes. It was mentioned in AGHotR, so that makes just the fact that there was a plague there canon. Nothing else.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2262&whichpage=2
But anyway! Sure... the mortals who worship dying/soon to be dead deities MAY get the short end of the stick, but in reality, it is the portfolio/popular opinion of portfolio that dictates their fate. Were true followers of murder too upset by Bhaal's death and Cyric's acension? Maybe the lawful ones (as the assassin's were all dead due to my (Myrkul's) plot) were a little upset, but murder was still the same and now it was cool to lie, trick, and play the game (intrigue) your way to the kill!
Illusion then was paired with lies and all of those Leirans that really didn't make much sense in the meta-plot and were kinda there to be "spooky" and "mysterious" faded away. Also the followers of Moander were probably all shunted to the abyss or the hells, depending on their leaning on the law/evil axis after his death (Moander is not much different from 75% of the demons/devils afterall).
About the good gods? I'm sure were a good god to fall (like Tyr) another five would be there to pick up his followers.
The real concern about the dead should be the faithless and false. The faithless go to the wall to lose their identity and become one with the void (enter a literary "fugue" state where they are no longer themselves) while the false (those who denied their god or somehow crossed their faith while they were alive) get punished eternally in the city surrounding the Crystal Spire (formally made of Bones.... - grumble, grumble, grumble- Home edition... -grumble, grumble-) by devils who have made a pact with the current (or subsequent) Lord of the Dead (Kelemvor, Cyric, Myrkul, Jergal...).
Hope this Helps!
-Friendly, neighborhood Horned Harbinger.
The real concern about the dead should be the faithless and false. The faithless go to the wall to lose their identity and become one with the void (enter a literary "fugue" state where they are no longer themselves) while the false (those who denied their god or somehow crossed their faith while they were alive) get punished eternally in the city surrounding the Crystal Spire (formally made of Bones.... - grumble, grumble, grumble- Home edition... -grumble, grumble-) by devils who have made a pact with the current (or subsequent) Lord of the Dead (Kelemvor, Cyric, Myrkul, Jergal...).
I wonder if the "everyday Realmsian" knows about this, though. We do, of course, because it's in the rules, heh! But for Joe Cormyrian, who isn't a cleric of Kelemvor (or who might not know of earlier deities of the dead and their policies), is this all that well known?
Or... maybe it was something that Myrkul used to inspire fear (i.e. or his clerics, to encourage worship more generally)? I could easily see a priest of Myrkul pointing at someone and saying "ye are faithless, and ye shall gain no fit reward in the afterlife!" or something along those lines. Kelemvor might not do quite the same thing, but perhaps it's a part of his liturgy as well.
Anyone know if the standard farmer would know of the rules involving the faithless or the false?
I wonder though why, in a world where the gods' existence is so obvious, anyone would choose to be faithless.
-Hubris. Arrogance. Questioning the notion of whether or not these deities are actually deities, or are just shams.
Anyone know if the standard farmer would know of the rules involving the faithless or the false?
-They shouldn't, unless you want to go with the assumption that local Clerics know, and as such, evangelize. I don't, though.
Most people in Faerun worshipp gods one way or the other, therefore a faithless is a rare happenstance, the False are more common though. If I was Kelemvor I would invert who goes to the Wall and who to maintain the city. You need more souls to become part of the Wall than to keep the city clean.
-If I were Kelemovor, I'd abolish the entire system completely. Turn the faithless into servants who help you keep the Fugue Plane running, and turn the false into...something else, I guess. No reason for eternal torture and damnation, though.
-If I were Kelemovor, I'd abolish the entire system completely. Turn the faithless into servants who help you keep the Fugue Plane running, and turn the false into...something else, I guess. No reason for eternal torture and damnation, though.
You can choose to become a Baatezu if the idea of being house-boy to Kelemvor doesn't fits your style.
-The sad thing with all of this, it's tainted with too many preconceived notions of the Western world. Not believing in a deity, and thus, being damned for the rest of eternity for it.
-Those who don't believe in a deity should simply be reincarnated. That's simple, that's nice, and it works.
Remember that many of those who believed in something (like nature) usualy discover they followed one of the gods dogmas when they died, even if they didn't know the god's name, so faithless people should be considered Constructs more than sentient beings.
That said, Kelemvor is a Lawful Neutral deity and I think the thing with the Wall and the city really fits this outlook. ('So, you knew what was coming, right? And still you chose a wrong path...tsk, time to do some time here now boy!')
Into a Devil because you sell your sould to the Baatezu (same process when you are alive), or a Demon because they steal it from the Fugue Plane. Loths don't change souls to become Loths and the Celestials are already followers of something.
-That's right, I forgot that the soul sells itself to the Demon/Devil. I was thinking that it was Kelemvor transforming them himself.
('So, you knew what was coming, right? And still you chose a wrong path...tsk, time to do some time here now boy!')
-That's the thing. What makes it "the wrong path". This is the part that I find fault with, the part that is "Judeo-Christianized". Why is it wrong to not believe in a deity?
As for the Wall, it's not "eternal suffering and damnation". It's 1d10 days of suffering, before your spirit is consumed by the wall and there's nothing left. I'd take that over Hell any time and every time.
Yeah, when you put it like that I think you do have a point.
-Yup. ;)
Where would you go after you died if you didn't worship a deity? You certainly can't expect to be taken into one of their domains after death when you didn't bother to utter a single prayer to them in the first place.
-It would be the duty of Kelemvor, the deity of the dead, to "look after you".
As for the Wall, it's not "eternal suffering and damnation". It's 1d10 days of suffering, before your spirit is consumed by the wall and there's nothing left. I'd take that over Hell any time and every time.
-Hell, Hell is better. At least, with the commonly accepted version of hell, your soul isn't consumed and your existence isn't evaporated.
-They shouldn't, unless you want to go with the assumption that local Clerics know, and as such, evangelize. I don't, though.
That's pretty much what I thought. The average farmer or laborer just wouldn't know about the wall of the faithless and the false, unless there's some local priest that teaches "basics of death" to the general public. That'd be really rare, I'd think, because most Faerunians don't "go to church on Sunday" in the way of real life western countries.
In my home FR campaign, which still has Myrkul (no ToT happened, so no Cyric either), the "faithless" are those who actively deny all the deities for spiteful reasons (e.g. perhaps, one might be - publicly cursing all the deities and never deciding to "take it back"). And the "false" are those who spend the majority of their lives worshipping one particular deity and then intentionally engage in actions that horribly defy their deity's code (for lack of a better word) and who aren't accepted into the faith of another deity (switching from Lathander to Asmodeus, perhaps... with a specific unholy act against Lathander). For general "backwoods hicks" who never actually adopt a deity or faith because it doesn't strike them as being needful, Silvanus takes them up after death and sends them into reincarnation mode (as a part of nature's cycle), so long as they haven't done anything specifically bad against the general ways of nature... otherwise, they become "faithless". Not sure if that's the best way, but it seems to satisfy my players.
I wonder though why, in a world where the gods' existence is so obvious, anyone would choose to be faithless. It is really stupid to be faithless in the Realms (unless the aforementioned followers of deities that had just died died themselves pretty soon afterward) and this kind of punishment (the Wall) seems only just.
The Athars in Planescape were individuals who believed in the existance of gods yet also believed that they were just arrogant, overpowered entities that did not deserve to be worshipped in the fashion that gods did. It's kind of an Objectivist principle were are dealing with here, their mentality is that there should be no obligations to any being besides themselves, and that any beings with flaws as apparent as the D&D gods (who squabble and die off quite often, and resemble mortals in their behavior) are not worthy of serving unless they can gain great personal benefits.
So in the end, the Wall is just a punishment for hubris and for anyone dumb enough to make pacts with demons and devils and think themselves the victors, they deserve what they got coming...;)
About the punishments though! The wall and servitude/torture function in a pact with the other deities. ESPECIALLY since the ToT where Ao decreed that the measure of divinity is the power of faith. Therefore, how to get the people in the pews? Tell em' their damned! Ol' fire and brimstone should do the trick. In F&P, I remember reading about Myrkul appearing at funerals to remind the living that they would one day be before him (unless of course they chose servitude).
Here is another way of thinking it- The big powers make the rules, right? So who are the big powers in this crystal spheres? Ao, of course but he does not do anything. So the next best thing is the greater deities. Who, of course, want to keep power. Since Ao's rule, they now have to truly get an iron grip on their faith before they even start scheming. Since there is always need of a god of Dead/Death, Kelemvor is pretty safe and cozy. However, the other gods need him to make sure that the souls of the mortals obey and believe. So Kelemvor (Jergal and Myrkul, even Cyric, before him) go and make punishments for those who do not be good little boys, girls, and elvzies and thus creating the desire, want, and need to have believers beyond just the clergy.
-Hubris. Arrogance. Questioning the notion of whether or not these deities are actually deities, or are just shams. [...]
Mass Life And Death saliant divine ability >>> mortal hubris. :P
-They shouldn't, unless you want to go with the assumption that local Clerics know, and as such, evangelize. I don't, though.
And why should they not know? It's not as if Kelemvor's dogma didn't include spreading the knowledge about what happens when one dies to take away the people's fear of death.
Also, why shouldn't clerics receive a divine inspiration or vision aka "list'o'memos" of what to teach the faithful of their believe and what not?
I believe that the term "Faithless" only applies to those who have knowledge of deities anyway...
About the punishments though! The wall and servitude/torture function in a pact with the other deities. ESPECIALLY since the ToT where Ao decreed that the measure of divinity is the power of faith. Therefore, how to get the people in the pews? Tell em' their damned! Ol' fire and brimstone should do the trick. In F&P, I remember reading about Myrkul appearing at funerals to remind the living that they would one day be before him (unless of course they chose servitude).
Here is another way of thinking it- The big powers make the rules, right? So who are the big powers in this crystal spheres? Ao, of course but he does not do anything. So the next best thing is the greater deities. Who, of course, want to keep power. Since Ao's rule, they now have to truly get an iron grip on their faith before they even start scheming. Since there is always need of a god of Dead/Death, Kelemvor is pretty safe and cozy. However, the other gods need him to make sure that the souls of the mortals obey and believe. So Kelemvor (Jergal and Myrkul, even Cyric, before him) go and make punishments for those who do not be good little boys, girls, and elvzies and thus creating the desire, want, and need to have believers beyond just the clergy.
Yup, the punishments serve a functional purpose, not just a moral one (as all things should). Yeah, it is kind of hard to be ignorant in a world where deities are so involved. But for those that are ignorant, they could be reincarnated (I think that already does happen to followers of the Path of Enlightenment in Shou Lung anyway).
Mass Life And Death saliant divine ability >>> mortal hubris.
-Yes, yes they are.
And why should they not know? It's not as if Kelemvor's dogma didn't include spreading the knowledge about what happens when one dies to take away the people's fear of death.
Also, why shouldn't clerics receive a divine inspiration or vision aka "list'o'memos" of what to teach the faithful of their believe and what not?
-Tell me, then: How much would, say, the average Chultan know?
-Tell me, then: How much would, say, the average Chultan know?
They know enough to pray in the name of Ubtao to protect them from the great evil that lurks under the Peaks of Flame.
They know enough to pray in the name of Ubtao to protect them from the great evil that lurks under the Peaks of Flame.
-Which doesn't mean that they know that if you were false and/or faithless, you'd be punished by having the things that happen to the false/faithless happen.
-Which doesn't mean that they know that if you were false and/or faithless, you'd be punished by having the things that happen to the false/faithless happen.
But they aren't, so why should they worry about it.
Face it, in a world like Faerun, where you know that the gods are very much real and capacious, you at least pay lip service to somebody to make sure your afterlife is secure. Anyone that dosen't at least pretend to be a bit pious deserves to go to the Wall for the sin of stupidity.
But they aren't, so why should they worry about it.
-That's just avoiding the point. Point is, they wouldn't know of it.
-I hate when people are like, "Well, X didn't happen, so don't worry about it!". Personal thing.
Face it, in a world like Faerun, where you know that the gods are very much real and capacious, you at least pay lip service to somebody to make sure your afterlife is secure. Anyone that dosen't at least pretend to be a bit pious deserves to go to the Wall for the sin of stupidity.
-The fact that people don't means this is false.
-
-The fact that people don't means this is false.
I'm pretty sure most people in Faerun (heck, even Toril), were affected one was or another by the Time of Troubles. I'm also pretty sure everyone has access to some means of worship.
I'm pretty sure most people in Faerun (heck, even Toril), were affected one was or another by the Time of Troubles. I'm also pretty sure everyone has access to some means of worship.
-Neither of which mean that people actually will. The same can be said of actual life- everyone in some way has been effected by a religion, in some way, and that everyone has the ability to access some means of worship- and yet there are people who are atheistic.
-Neither of which mean that people actually will. The same can be said of actual life- everyone in some way has been effected by a religion, in some way, and that everyone has the ability to access some means of worship- and yet there are people who are atheistic.
Well, we actually have no concrete proof god exists in the real world, while the gods actually send divine agents walking around on Faerun and entire nations are controlled by their faithful, you can't even begin to make that comparison.
As for your former statement, those people go to the wall out of pure hubris. Personally, I find it morally repulsive, but it makes sense by context of the Realms.
Well, we actually have no concrete proof god exists in the real world...
-Which doesn't change the fact that everyone, in one way or another, has been affected by a religion, in some fashion.
-And, following the philosophies that you claim, you should like the idea of being the master of your own destiny.
-It would be the duty of Kelemvor, the deity of the dead, to "look after you".
It's his job to send the dead off to where they're supposed to go, as well as punish the Faithless and the False. And really, if the end result of being one of the Faithless or the False was the same as being a worshipper of Kelemvor, then what would be the point of worshipping Kelemvor? You may as well be Faithless. And that's not a good thing for Kelemvor.
Face it, in a world like Faerun, where you know that the gods are very much real and capacious, you at least pay lip service to somebody to make sure your afterlife is secure. Anyone that dosen't at least pretend to be a bit pious deserves to go to the Wall for the sin of stupidity.
Exactly. In Faerun, being Faithless isn't a question of "Well, I don't know if God/the gods/etc exist, so I'm not going to be religious". Everyone knows for a fact. And to top it off, there's a god for pretty much anything and everything you can imagine, so you're not exactly bereft of choices. You can't say, "Well, I'm a thieving bastard, so who am I supposed to worship?", because there's Mask right there! So what reason is left for one to be Faithless? A monumental amount of pride, that's what. You can't even bring yourself to pay lip service to one god or another in order to preserve your soul for eternity? In which case, off to the Wall with you.
-Which doesn't change the fact that everyone, in one way or another, has been affected by a religion, in some fashion.
-And, following the philosophies that you claim, you should like the idea of being the master of your own destiny.
Karsus, please don't mix up my personal philosophies with the reality of the Realms.
Once I hear in this modern age that Jehovah has sent down an avatar to fight evil in this world, then we can talk.;) Once I see a priest cast a healing spell on a man dying of cancer, then we can talk.
It's his job to send the dead off to where they're supposed to go, as well as punish the Faithless and the False. And really, if the end result of being one of the Faithless or the False was the same as being a worshipper of Kelemvor, then what would be the point of worshipping Kelemvor? You may as well be Faithless. And that's not a good thing for Kelemvor.
-Why would they have to be treated similarly? That's something that you brought up, not me. I know I never said that they'd be treated similarly. Just that they'd be under the "watch" of Kelemvor, they'd be in his jurisdiction.
Once I hear in this modern age that Jehovah has sent down an avatar to fight evil in this world, then we can talk.;) Once I see a priest cast a healing spell on a man dying of cancer, then we can talk.
-You're not listening. Read what I wrote. Read it slowly if you have to.
-Why would they have to be treated similarly? That's something that you brought up, not me. I know I never said that they'd be treated similarly. Just that they'd be under the "watch" of Kelemvor, they'd be in his jurisdiction.
Under his jurisdiction doing... what?
Under his jurisdiction doing... what?
-That'd be for Kelemvor to decide. ;)
-But being stuffed in a wall and whatnot? No...Silly.
-
-You're not listening. Read what I wrote. Read it slowly if you have to.
But that's not the point, its not an argument of whether religion has touched our lives or not, it's a matter of do we actually know through what we have heard of or seen that god actually does exist and there is an afterlife. All that I have mentioned before are examples of concrete evidence of the existance of such powers in Faerun while not on earth.
Face it, in a world where magic is a daily reality, all the old legends you hear about are most likely true and far more dangerous than we can comprehend, and forces beyond our comprehension butt into our lives in rather nasty ways, you would be praying for a savior too.
-That'd be for Kelemvor to decide. ;)
-But being stuffed in a wall and whatnot? No...Silly.
Remember that Kelemvor too is a god and his judgement, though imperfect is very subjective based upon the reality of the planes. He can't simply adjust to suit the needs of clueless mortals, he must promote the worship of the gods as a duty to reality.
But that's not the point, its not an argument of whether religion has touched our lives or not, it's a matter of do we actually know through what we have heard of or seen that god actually does exist and there is an afterlife. All that I have mentioned before are examples of concrete evidence of the existance of such powers in Faerun while not on earth.
-Wrong. This. This is what I brought up, not anything else, in the analogy.
It's a world where the powers of the gods are dependent on the number of worshippers they have. You think that having a punishment for those who refuse to worship any gods altogether is silly in such a world?
-Yes. Why should a soul be punished? What wrong is being done? How can not worshiping a deity be quantified as being wrong, as being bad? Thing makes existence seem like it's solely for the benefit of the eternal battles of deities. Makes mortal existence and accomplishments seem meaningless. This, I don't think, is the message of the Forgotten Realms.
-Wrong. This. This is what I brought up, not anything else, in the analogy.
-Yes. Why should a soul be punished? What wrong is being done? How can not worshiping a deity be quantified as being wrong, as being bad? Thing makes existence seem like it's solely for the benefit of the eternal battles of deities. Makes mortal existence and accomplishments seem meaningless. This, I don't think, is the message of the Forgotten Realms.
1. I don't give a rat's arse. My purpose and the purpose of this argument is to prove the Wall is justified. I can ignore your specifics to advance the ultimate message.;)
2. It's not supposed to be right or wrong, its supposed to help the gods, and Kelemvor is very much a god and very much caught up in divine politics. The message of Forgotten Realms is power, responsibility, and how if the two are applied wonders can be achieved, and how power without restraint and responsibility causes downfall. The gods that didn't follow this and blundered are mostly dead now. The fact is that there are powers beyond the mortal world that are very active in the Realms, and they can make you pay...
-Yes. Why should a soul be punished? What wrong is being done?
Overweening pride, for one?
How can not worshiping a deity be quantified as being wrong, as being bad? Thing makes existence seem like it's solely for the benefit of the eternal battles of deities.
You're reducing the roles of the gods far more, though. They don't just duke it out with each other. Protecting their worshippers is an important part of a deity's job. They protect them not just against gods who those people are philosophically, morally, or ethically opposed to, but other powerful forces in the cosmos. Demons, devils, primoridials, etc. They give their priests magic which they can then use to help grow crops, cure the sick, raise the dead, and perform miracles from time to time. And when you die they provide you a home for eternity, or however long that deity endures. The gods perform an important role, and when it comes to the question of who benefits, we're not talking about a one-way street.
Makes mortal existence and accomplishments seem meaningless. This, I don't think, is the message of the Forgotten Realms.
That's assuming that it makes a mortals existence and accomplishments meaningless, which I disagree with.
1. I don't give a rat's arse. My purpose and the purpose of this argument is to prove the Wall is justified. I can ignore your specifics to advance the ultimate message.;)
2. It's not supposed to be right or wrong, its supposed to help the gods, and Kelemvor is very much a god and very much caught up in divine politics. The message of Forgotten Realms is power, responsibility, and how if the two are applied wonders can be achieved, and how power without restraint and responsibility causes downfall. The gods that didn't follow this and blundered are mostly dead now. The fact is that there are powers beyond the mortal world that are very active in the Realms, and they can make you pay...
1. Don't use the word 'arse'. It isn't in your vernacular. It's ass. Come on, man.
2. You are discussing 'A', and I am discussing 'B'. A =/= B.
3. The concept that mortals are simply "divine currency" for deities, ultimately, is hardly the "message" of the setting.
Overweening pride, for one?
-Pride? Since when is pride a bad thing? Or "evil"? Or whatever term we're using?
You're reducing the roles of the gods far more, though. They don't just duke it out with each other. Protecting their worshippers is an important part of a deity's job. They protect them not just against gods who those people are philosophically, morally, or ethically opposed to, but other powerful forces in the cosmos. Demons, devils, primoridials, etc. They give their priests magic which they can then use to help grow crops, cure the sick, raise the dead, and perform miracles from time to time. And when you die they provide you a home for eternity, or however long that deity endures. The gods perform an important role, and when it comes to the question of who benefits, we're not talking about a one-way street.
-Those who don't worship them, who don't "accept" them aren't benefiting from these things. The Athar, for instance. They don't accept magical healing from Divine Magic. So, ultimately, why can't "you not bother me if I don't bother you"? There's a disconnect.
That's assuming that it makes a mortals existence and accomplishments meaningless, which I disagree with.
-When, ultimately, they "translate" into divine currency...
1. Don't use the word 'arse'. It isn't in your vernacular. It's ass.
2. You are discussing 'A', and I am discussing 'B'. A =/= B.
3. The concept that mortals are simply "divine currency" for deities, ultimately, is hardly the "message" of the setting.
My purpose is to propagate A, yours is to propagate B so that A=B, so by your definition you are wrong.;)
I used arse so I wasen't swearing.
I never said so. Like Greenknight has states, its a mutual contract. The gods give protection, care, and a stable afterlife to mortals, in exchange all a mortal has to do is give lip service to fuel the life force of the gods. In a world of supernatural forces and planar powers, those that deny reality will face the consequences. Don't even think about the Wall as a punishment, think it as a destination for those who delibrately blind themselves.
Another way to look at it is that the Wall underlines how petty and mortal the gods truely are in that they aren't the ultimate moral judges, merely spiritual monarchs executing mandates on their citizens. What does a mortal king do when a man in his kingdom refuses to follow his laws or the law of any other kings, throw him in jail of course.
My purpose is to propagate A, yours is to propagate B so that A=B, so by your definition you are wrong.;)
-And, again, what I said is entirely true. You seem to be using a different argument on that topic, which is why I said A =/= B.
I used arse so I wasen't swearing.
-Ass isn't either.
I never said so. Like Greenknight has states, its a mutual contract. The gods give protection, care, and a stable afterlife to mortals, in exchange all a mortal has to do is give lip service to fuel the life force of the gods. In a world of supernatural forces and planar powers, those that deny reality will face the consequences. Don't even think about the Wall as a punishment, think it as a destination for those who delibrately blind themselves.
-And, like I said, many of those who are faithless do not reap those benefits. They do not accept divine healing, for example. They don't bother the various deities, in such that they are not investments that aren't going to yield returns.
Another way to look at it is that the Wall underlines how petty and mortal the gods truely are in that they aren't the ultimate moral judges, merely spiritual monarchs executing mandates on their citizens. What does a mortal king do when a man in his kingdom refuses to follow his laws or the law of any other kings, throw him in jail of course.
-Which would make one want to actually worship a deity even less.
-
-And, like I said, many of those who are faithless do not reap those benefits. They do not accept divine healing, for example. They don't bother the various deities, in such that they are not investments that aren't going to yield returns.
-Which would make one want to actually worship a deity even less.
I know. Pesonally I find that morally correct and it would be great if that was all that dictated our lives, the whole equivalent exchange law. But in the Forgotten Realms, the spirit and mind have monarchs, dukes, and barons carving up land called the gods who WILL punish you if you don't follow the laws of their land.
-Those who don't worship them, who don't "accept" them aren't benefiting from these things.
But in many ways, they are. If a priest blesses the crops, then anyone who eats from that harvest is benefitting, Faithful and Faithless alike. If a plague is spreading through town, and a cleric cures all the ill, then all are benefitting. The Faithless benefit a lot from divine power in Faerun. And they can't muster up a few prayers here and there? Remember, in many cases, we're not talking terrificially stringent religions. It isn't a case of "you have to conform your life precisely to these incredibly tough guidelines". In most cases, it's fairly easy being a worshipper. And to top it off, you can pick a god who suits your temperament. Are you a naturally lazy guy? Well, I'm sure there's a god of sloth out there who you pay homage to every day by not lifting a finger. ;)
3. The concept that mortals are simply "divine currency" for deities, ultimately, is hardly the "message" of the setting.
Actually, I'll argue this.
I believe A message of the setting, in Greenwood's own words is, "There is always someone more powerful than you."
Take that, combine it with the "freedom to change your destiny through overpowering odds" and boom, you have an epic scope game.
The gods would be the boogeyman that lies in the shadows who is more powerful than you are. As such, they enforce their will on mortals (think of a despot towering over his subjects). As an epic scope game would entail, you change the way the gods vote to you goes or your own outlook (lets not think apothesis, I'm tired of mortals trying to kill us divinity. That goes out to you, LK, your hands are red with guilt! So are that harlot Midnight's....)
Anyway! So we have something more powerful than you. We have a big challenge to change the way the things go and boom!!! Giant metaplot that remains subjective, not objective. You will never change the way things work for everyone, but for yourself, you may find salvation without submitting and now you have a story!
But in many ways, they are. If a priest blesses the crops, then anyone who eats from that harvest is benefitting, Faithful and Faithless alike. If a plague is spreading through town, and a cleric cures all the ill, then all are benefitting. The Faithless benefit a lot from divine power in Faerun. And they can't muster up a few prayers here and there?
-And, at the same time, there are hermits who live alone in the mountains, who tend to their own affairs, not trafficking with those who conjure and use the power of the deities, who do not benefit at all from divine power in Faerûn.
Remember, in many cases, we're not talking terrificially stringent religions. It isn't a case of "you have to conform your life precisely to these incredibly tough guidelines". In most cases, it's fairly easy being a worshipper. And to top it off, you can pick a god who suits your temperament. Are you a naturally lazy guy? Well, I'm sure there's a god of sloth out there who you pay homage to every day by not lifting a finger. ;)
-It's the general point, not the actualities of it.
Actually, I'll argue this.
I believe A message of the setting, in Greenwood's own words is, "There is always someone more powerful than you."
Take that, combine it with the "freedom to change your destiny through overpowering odds" and boom, you have an epic scope game.
-The two seem to negate each other, in this context that we are talking about...Ultimately, no matter what destiny for forge for yourself, you still amount to little more than a plaything for a deity (or other extraplanar creature).
-And, at the same time, there are hermits who live alone in the mountains, who tend to their own affairs, not trafficking with those who conjure and use the power of the deities, who do not benefit at all from divine power in Faerûn. [...]
And these exceptions should dictate the course of action for the majority of the FR regarding the afterlife?
And these exceptions should dictate the course of action for the majority of the FR regarding the afterlife?
-And, those theoretical exceptions are just as likely to occur as mundane that GK described.
-And, those theoretical exceptions are just as likely to occur as mundane that GK described.
So you are saying that isolated hermits who live that far away from any point of civilization that they never did benefit from someone working diving powers are just as likely as events where priests of Chauntea bless the seeds, priests of Ilmater heal the wounded, or priests of Kelemvor hold burial ceremonies?
I think that's a bit more than exaggeration. ;)
Perhaps a pragmatic look at some numbers could help here. How many completely isolated hermits without any source of divine power are known to you compared to the countless cities and communities that benefit each day from the workings of many priests and clerics?
So you are saying that isolated hermits who live that far away from any point of civilization that they never did benefit from someone working diving powers are just as likely as events where priests of Chauntea bless the seeds, priests of Ilmater heal the wounded, or priests of Kelemvor hold burial ceremonies?
-When you are making up theoretical examples to fit a situation, of course.
Perhaps a pragmatic look at some numbers could help here. How many completely isolated hermits without any source of divine power are known to you compared to the countless cities and communities that benefit each day from the workings of many priests and clerics?
-They wouldn't be very good hermits if their names and stats were plastered all over game books and such. We all know that there are a lot more individuals living in the world than novels/sourcebooks give justice to.
-When you are making up theoretical examples to fit a situation, of course.
Where were I making something up?
Or you are actually calling established ceremonies, rites and practices "theoretical examples"? Because we all know that in reality all those clerics are just sitting around in their temples and getting drunk instead of following their deity's dogma. :D
-They wouldn't be very good hermits if their names and stats were plastered all over game books and such. We all know that there are a lot more individuals living in the world than novels/sourcebooks give justice to.
So your single argument is "they exist but I can't tell how many because they are hermits but there's enough of them to completely back up my statement".
Anyway, why do you even argue about this? Isn't this some piece of "precious FR lore" nobody should dare criticize or want to change because it's set in stone in some official book? :P
I wonder though why, in a world where the gods' existence is so obvious, anyone would choose to be faithless. It is really stupid to be faithless in the Realms (unless the aforementioned followers of deities that had just died died themselves pretty soon afterward) and this kind of punishment (the Wall) seems only just.
Why does it "seem only just?"
-The sad thing with all of this, it's tainted with too many preconceived notions of the Western world.
That's what bothers me about the whole idea.
My personal "ruling" on this would be that those who didn't worship any deity would simply go to the plane that fits their alignment/beliefs. But as pointed out, people like that should be rare in this setting.
Face it, in a world like Faerun, where you know that the gods are very much real and capacious, you at least pay lip service to somebody to make sure your afterlife is secure. Anyone that dosen't at least pretend to be a bit pious deserves to go to the Wall for the sin of stupidity.
"Lip service" implies that the prayers are insincere. The gods would deem that unacceptable.
"Lip service" implies that the prayers are insincere. The gods would deem that unacceptable.
As long as some concessions are made to them the gods gain power from it, so they don't really care one way or another.
You're reducing the roles of the gods far more, though. They don't just duke it out with each other. Protecting their worshippers is an important part of a deity's job. They protect them not just against gods who those people are philosophically, morally, or ethically opposed to, but other powerful forces in the cosmos. Demons, devils, primoridials, etc. They give their priests magic which they can then use to help grow crops, cure the sick, raise the dead, and perform miracles from time to time. And when you die they provide you a home for eternity, or however long that deity endures. The gods perform an important role, and when it comes to the question of who benefits, we're not talking about a one-way street.
You make a good point. However, I don't think there are enough "Faithless" in the Realms to be a threat to that.
I think punishment for refusing to worship a deity is very fitting for malevolent deities--to me, it makes religion seem like a divine protection racket. I don't think not worshipping a deity means one is "overweeningly proud", or at least not to the point where they deserve a smackdown. Yes, my real-life beliefs are creeping in here, which is why I generally try to avoid these discussions.
As long as some concessions are made to them the gods gain power from it, so they don't really care one way or another.
Not true, because people who insincerely worship deities are considered "False".
3. The concept that mortals are simply "divine currency" for deities, ultimately, is hardly the "message" of the setting.
I'm definitely posting in this thread against my better judgement, because it comes way to close to people's real life religious beliefs (that how it seems to me, anyway). But I want to say that I agree with this quote. It's the concept that's a bitter pill for me to swallow. Sorry. The truth of the matter is there's a lot of real world baggage here. It doesn't suit me for the Realms to have the same baggage. If it doesn't bother other people, so be it.
The gods give protection, care, and a stable afterlife to mortals, in exchange all a mortal has to do is give lip service to fuel the life force of the gods.
Once again, "lip service" implies a lack of sincerity, and the gods don't like that.
Once again, "lip service" implies a lack of sincerity, and the gods don't like that.
Lip service is all that it is. One way or another it gives acknowledgement to the god as a patron of his/her specific domains and therefore represents true belief. A=A is all that there is to it.
Lip service is all that it is. One way or another it gives acknowledgement to the god as a patron of his/her specific domains and therefore represents true belief. A=A is all that there is to it.
At least one dictionary disagrees with that.
lip service
–noun insincere expression of friendship, admiration, support, etc.; service by words only: He paid only lip service to the dictator.
PS: I don't know or care about this A=A thing you're talking about.
-And, at the same time, there are hermits who live alone in the mountains, who tend to their own affairs, not trafficking with those who conjure and use the power of the deities, who do not benefit at all from divine power in Faerûn.
Considering there are deities for literally everything in Faerûn, a hermit would most definately--regardless of how hard they try--benefit from the existence of one deity or another. If they grow their own vegetation (and I don't see how they would survive without doing so (unless using divine magic)) they have Chauntea to thank. Eventually, somewhere along the line, they would probably have Tymora to thank for a spell (in a nonmagical sense) of good luck. The list could go on. It would be 100% impossible for a person in Toril to not be blessed in some way by one deity or another.
And as for the complaints of why the faithless should be punished so: I don't see why anyone would be so adamant about the unfairness of the situation unless it reminds them too much of themselves.
PS: I don't know or care about this A=A thing you're talking about.
You hang around Karsus. You have to have heard him blabber about this more than once;)
As I have said before, it dosen't have to be sincere reverence as long as a form of acknowledgement is present.
As I have said before, it dosen't have to be sincere reverence as long as a form of acknowledgement is present.
And I still disagree with that.
And as for the complaints of why the faithless should be punished so: I don't see why anyone would be so adamant about the unfairness of the situation unless it reminds them too much of themselves.
What follows from that? Are you implying there's something wrong with having that opinion?
If you have a problem with other people's real-life beliefs, I strongly suggest you refrain from discussing it here, as that would be frowned on as per the CoC. Thank you.
And I still disagree with that.
Ok, I am just thinking of possible ways the deities possess power as justification for the Wall.
Ok, I am just thinking of possible ways the deities possess power as justification for the Wall.
Fair enough. I think it's a problematic idea, but if you like it I wouldn't tell you not to use it.
Ok, I am just thinking of possible ways the deities possess power as justification for the Wall.
-Like many aspects of the Forgotten Realms, there are things that simply do not, or can not have justifications, to make them "mesh" with the rest of established continuity. The problems with the Dracorage Mythal, for example. Within all of the back and forth debates about things there were justified, and made sense, it dawned on me that, no matter how much debate and justification and attacks, and everything else, it just never will "mesh" with the rest of established continuity.
-Like many aspects of the Forgotten Realms, there are things that simply do not, or can not have justifications, to make them "mesh" with the rest of established continuity. The problems with the Dracorage Mythal, for example. Within all of the back and forth debates about things there were justified, and made sense, it dawned on me that, no matter how much debate and justification and attacks, and everything else, it just never will "mesh" with the rest of established continuity.
I'm not too familiar on that subject except that the Dracorage Mythal was created by Elven High Mages to end the Dawn Ages and Sammaster manipulated it so that it set off without the appearance of the King Killer Star. Seems to make sense to me.
What follows from that? Are you implying there's something wrong with having that opinion?
Not at all. I just wanted a reaction, and you delivered. I suppose I probably took it a bit far. ;p
it just never will "mesh" with the rest of established continuity.
Honestly, I don't think it's unfair that the faithless and false end up as they do. However, I do see your point. The reasoning behind Kelemvor's view on the faithless/false (according to the Avatar series) always seemed a little off. Kelemvor's original plan to reward the goodnatured faithless and punish the eviler ones was more in line with his personality. But then, according to the novels, good people began to throw themselves into harm's way while evil hid from danger out of fear of death. Considering they were false or faithless anyways (the false wouldn't expect to become permanent denizens of the Fugue Plane, the Faithless wouldn't know the result of the lack of belief) I don't see why they would worry--let alone know--about Kelemvor's system. He then, of course, changed to his current system after this; evil deities such as Cyric and Mask were upset with his original system since it drastically decreased the amount of evil within the Realms.
I'm not too familiar on that subject except that the Dracorage Mythal was created by Elven High Mages to end the Dawn Ages and Sammaster manipulated it so that it set off without the appearance of the King Killer Star. Seems to make sense to me.
-The crux of the debate is that, at the same time as this, the very same Elves were training benevolent Dragons to be their friends and steeds (Evermeet: Island of Elves), and that the weaving of the Mythal was an evil act, in so much that they knew what it would do to ALL Dragons, and why would they train Dragons if they were going to drive them mad, and this makes Elves evil, and yada, yada, yada. A debate for another thread, if it ever comes up again.
-The crux of the debate is that, at the same time as this, the very same Elves were training benevolent Dragons to be their friends and steeds (Evermeet: Island of Elves), and that the weaving of the Mythal was an evil act, in so much that they knew what it would do to ALL Dragons, and why would they train Dragons if they were going to drive them mad, and this makes Elves evil, and yada, yada, yada. A debate for another thread, if it ever comes up again.
Well, perhaps the elves had only intended for the Mythal to only affect evil dragons but to due the usually out-of-hand consequences of Elven High Magic it went overboard and drove all dragons mad.
Another theory was that the elves had attempted to domesticate dragons for their own purpose yet quickly realized that the threat posed by all dragons for their civilization was too imminent, panicked, and made a sloppy decision using their vaunted magic power.
There are other theories on my mind but I have no desire to mention them right now.
Not at all. I just wanted a reaction, and you delivered.
For my part, I'm happy I said what I did.
And as for the complaints of why the faithless should be punished so: I don't see why anyone would be so adamant about the unfairness of the situation unless it reminds them too much of themselves.
-Could you please share with me my personal beliefs, then?
-Could you please share with me my personal beliefs, then?
You believe the gods are your playthings, the weave your playground. You believe in Self and the power of your own will. Nothing can stop you! Except yourself....:D
You believe the gods are your playthings, the weave your playground. You believe in Self and the power of your own will. Nothing can stop you! Except yourself....:D
-Close enough.
I'm pretty sure everyone in Faerun knows this. It's something that'd get pounded into the skulls of everyone within earshot by every single priest, cleric, or holy man of every single faith all across Faerun.
It's the job of the Priests of Kelemvor and before him Myrkul to inform everyone about the Wall of the Faithless, though tragically there are still those who have not heard its tale.
The idea is that Gods need mortals in order to stay gods and mortals need Gods to govern their respective portfolios. It's a balance of the world thing and if anyone violates this perfect balance they suffer in the Wall of the Faithless in the Fugue Plane. It is said that the greatest sin is to serve no faith at all (unless you are talking to a Cyricist and then the greatest sin is to worship anything but Cyric:the One True God :rolleye2: ). Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting tells a little about it and it is mentioned as well in Forgotten Realms:Faiths and Pantheons.
You believe the gods are your playthings, the weave your playground. You believe in Self and the power of your own will. Nothing can stop you! Except yourself....:D
So saith the nerd behind the computer. Keep on dreaming buddy:P
So saith the nerd behind the computer. Keep on dreaming buddy:P
No no, that was Karsus' religion. mine is much more sophisticated...:88E:
Luckily, in the Realms, you had the Time of Troubles and the Spellplague in recent events to prove the very real existence of deities.
GreenKnight argues it's overwhelming pride to not worship a deity, I argue it's overwhelming stupidity not to offer at least a respectful tip of the head towards the gods.
If you read the stuff from AD&D, it's not like they require devout prayer every day, simple thanksgivings for good fortune or uttering a quick prayer to stave off bad weather, for example, suffice.
Besides, Kel is LN. And the Wall is a very LN sort of punishment.
Besides, Kel is LN. And the Wall is a very LN sort of punishment.
-The utter annihilation of a soul void of malice and wrongdoing, and so forth would be Lawful Neutral? Carrying through with it, uncaring, because that's your job, sounds Lawful Neutral. That's almost the definition of Lawful Neutral. The process itself sounds quite evil to me...
-The utter annihilation of a soul void of malice and wrongdoing, and so forth would be Lawful Neutral? Carrying through with it, uncaring, because that's your job, sounds Lawful Neutral. That's almost the definition of Lawful Neutral. The process itself sounds quite evil to me...
"Listen buddy. I didn't make the rules, I'm only here to enforce them. I could change them, but currently I'm loaded with work up over my head, and the red tape would kill me." -- Kelemvor
:P
But seriously, considering that the Faithless revere no deity, what else would you do? Should Kelemvor open a planar doss house for them?
The Faithless are those mortals who don't have a divine patron to speak for them. This could either be because they never worshiped one, it died, or simply that their god doesn't want them for some reason. Their fate is to be made part of the City wall in The City of Judgment on the Fugue Plane. Each soul is held together with a green mould from which no one who is part of the wall can break free. After a time, the souls dissolve to become a natural part of the plane itself.
Can you imagine how crowded the Fugue Plane would become? The alternative would be to give the Baatezu (or Tanar'Ri) a huge boost in souls, which would be unacceptable from a balance perspective.
"Listen buddy. I didn't make the rules, I'm only here to enforce them. I could change them, but currently I'm loaded with work up over my head, and the red tape would kill me." -- Kelemvor
:P
-That's why Jergal gave up his powers.
But seriously, considering that the Faithless rever no deity, what else would you do? Should Kelemvor open a planar doss house for them?
-In my own setting, those who die and worship a deity are taken to the realm of their deity. Those who don't worship any deities go to the "City of Souls"- based very much on the Bastion of Souls and the City of the Dead- where they can choose to "live in" in a ghostly parody of life there (which I intend to eventually use as an adventuring plot), or be reborn, reincarnated as something else. Those who worship the deity of the dead serve as the "protectors" of the City of Souls.
-Something similar could be done in Realmspace.
Can you imagine how crowded the Fugue Plane would become? The alternative would be to give the Baatezu (or Tanar'Ri) a huge boost in souls, which would be unacceptable from a balance perspective.
-PGtF doesn't say that the Fugue is unlimited in size (which is what I was checking), but nor does it say that it isn't limited in size, either. Like the Cynosure, it's one of those "special" realms.
-As a side note, it's not a very good idea to quote the Forgotten Realms Wikia, as it is very incorrect, in many places. Like regular Wikipedia, things should always be taken with a grain of salt. I don't see anything wrong with that little tidbit, but with other things, there have been gross errors.
[...] -In my own setting, those who die and worship a deity are taken to the realm of their deity. Those who don't worship any deities go to the "City of Souls"- based very much on the Bastion of Souls and the City of the Dead- where they can choose to "live in" in a ghostly parody of life there (which I intend to eventually use as an adventuring plot), or be reborn, reincarnated as something else. Those who worship the deity of the dead serve as the "protectors" of the City of Souls.
-Something similar could be done in Realmspace.
An interesting idea.
However, why should any deity invest in such an "open soul project"? The inhabitants don't worship any deity, so none would gain influence. On the other hand, at least the god of death is required (or at least expected) to protect this "place" from being farmed for souls by demons and devils, thus binding his troops to a pretty "useless" idea.
The only effect this would have on FR is that the place would mercilessly be raided & farmed by demons and devils, and that Kelemvor would have to garrison some of his troops there, perhaps even an avatar, to ensure the place's neutrality, which would cut down his available power and make him less flexible to react to any threats.
-PGtF doesn't say that the Fugue is unlimited in size (which is what I was checking), but nor does it say that it isn't limited in size, either. Like the Cynosure, it's one of those "special" realms.
Indeed. However, even if it were infinite in size, you'd get to a point where it would become impossible to go anywhere because it would take you an infinite amount of time to get there. ;)
-As a side note, it's not a very good idea to quote the Forgotten Realms Wikia, as it is very incorrect, in many places. Like regular Wikipedia, things should always be taken with a grain of salt. I don't see anything wrong with that little tidbit, but with other things, there have been gross errors.
Then why don't you correct those errors and improve the quality of the wiki? A wiki lives by the contribution of its readers. Also, not everyone likes to dig through endless walls'o'text on Candlekeep.com. ;) (Not to mention the "conservative" design of the site... "Candlekeep is developed and tested primarily with the Microsoft Internet Explorer Web Browser (version 5+) in mind."
:P)However, why should any deity invest in such an "open soul project"?
-Speaking with my own setting, this is simply the way things were from the start. As such, the current deities have "no choice" but to go with the way the system works.
The inhabitants don't worship any deity, so none would gain influence. On the other hand, at least the god of death is required (or at least expected) to protect this "place" from being farmed for souls by demons and devils, thus binding his troops to a pretty "useless" idea.
-Again, speaking with my setting in mind, I envisioned those appointed 'protectors' by the deity of death- who worshiped him in life- as more of...watchmen, city guard, police officer type positions, rather than as soldiers.
The only effect this would have on FR is that the place would mercilessly be raided & farmed by demons and devils, and that Kelemvor would have to garrison some of his troops there, perhaps even an avatar, to ensure the place's neutrality, which would cut down his available power and make him less flexible to react to any threats.
-Yes! Finally! Something to make Kelemvor interesting! :P
Indeed. However, even if it were infinite in size, you'd get to a point where it would become impossible to go anywhere because it would take you an infinite amount of time to get there. ;)
-It's not like you'd...die or anything.
-You literally have all the time in the world, to get to where ever it is your going. Even if it takes forever to get there!
Then why don't you correct those errors and improve the quality of the wiki? A wiki lives by the contribution of its readers. Also, not everyone likes to dig through endless walls'o'text on Candlekeep.com. ;) (Not to mention the "conservative" design of the site... "Candlekeep is developed and tested primarily with the Microsoft Internet Explorer Web Browser (version 5+) in mind."
-I don't like Candlekeep either.
-I especially don't like the Forgotten Realms Wikia, because an contributor there blatantly stole intellectual property of MT, who created a map of Evermeet for Elves of Faerûn. I went there, and deleted it, but that's the extent of my contributions. Lurking at CK, which is what I usually do, and will do indefinitely, now, there is a thread about the Forgotten Realms Wikia, and apparently a lot of people there have had their edits of correct information erased, and the bad information put back on. I have enough "projects" I'm working on, and I'd (even if I wasn't doing anything else) never want to contribute to a site where, if someone wants to troll, spam, or just thinks they're right, when they're really not, they can change entire blocks of text.
-Speaking with my own setting, this is simply the way things were from the start. As such, the current deities have "no choice" but to go with the way the system works.
-Again, speaking with my setting in mind, I envisioned those appointed 'protectors' by the deity of death- who worshiped him in life- as more of...watchmen, city guard, police officer type positions, rather than as soldiers.
I see. However, I cannot imagine how you could retcon something like this into the FR setting without certain hardcore fans running amok. :P
-Yes! Finally! Something to make Kelemvor interesting! :P
Even more interesting? Ao help us!
:P But seriously, imho Kelemvor is one of the more interesting deities a character can have as a patron.-It's not like you'd...die or anything.
-You literally have all the time in the world, to get to where ever it is your going. Even if it takes forever to get there!
Then nobody would ever get to achieve anything. Stasis and stagnation for all eternity.
-I don't like Candlekeep either.
-I especially don't like the Forgotten Realms Wikia, because an contributor there blatantly stole intellectual property of MT, who created a map of Evermeet for Elves of Faerûn. I went there, and deleted it, but that's the extent of my contributions. Lurking at CK, which is what I usually do, and will do indefinitely, now, there is a thread about the Forgotten Realms Wikia, and apparently a lot of people there have had their edits of correct information erased, and the bad information put back on. I have enough "projects" I'm working on, and I'd (even if I wasn't doing anything else) never want to contribute to a site where, if someone wants to troll, spam, or just thinks they're right, when they're really not, they can change entire blocks of text.
I see. This explains your position quite well. However, as a Candlekeep lurker, perhaps you could suggest not only giving the site a fresh design (and please, for the sake of everything digital and electronic, get rid of the frames layout :P ) but also start their own FR wiki. :D
But yes, wiki-vandalism is a severe problem. But there are some ways to solve this (like only allowing registered forum members to edit wiki pages instead of everyone).
I see. However, I cannot imagine how you could retcon something like this into the FR setting without certain hardcore fans running amok. :P
-Now's the perfect time! I mean, it's not as if the world (for the most part) as we know it is is falling into chaos...
Even more interesting? Ao help us!
-I've always found Kelemvor the mortal a little bland, and Kelemvor the deity not too much better. Some of the characterization done with him at the end of Crucible: Trial of Cyric the Mad definitely helped the character, but since then, there hasn't been much of anything concerning Kelemvor. More should be done. More should have been done.
I see. This explains your position quite well. However, as a Candlekeep lurker, perhaps you could suggest not only giving the site a fresh design (and please, for the sake of everything digital and electronic, get rid of the frames layout :P ) but also start their own FR wiki. :D
-Nope. :P
But yes, wiki-vandalism is a severe problem. But there are some ways to solve this (like only allowing registered forum members to edit wiki pages instead of everyone).
-From the aforementioned conversation at CK that I was reading, apparently it was the moderators of the Forgotten Realms Wikia- or registered users- who erased correct information, and replaced it with misinformed/incorrect information. It is what it is.
-Now's the perfect time! I mean, it's not as if the world (for the most part) as we know it is is falling into chaos...
Nonono, you'd ruin the FR even more! It's been like that since, uhh, forever! You can't change that without completely and irrevocably destroying the Realms! :P
-I've always found Kelemvor the mortal a little bland, and Kelemvor the deity not too much better. Some of the characterization done with him at the end of Crucible: Trial of Cyric the Mad definitely helped the character, but since then, there hasn't been much of anything concerning Kelemvor. More should be done. More should have been done.
I meant from a player perspective. Having a more or less "computer-like" patron without passion or mercy can make for some very interesting confrontations and moral dilemmas.
Imho much more than having an insane, paranoid pseudo sun god as patron who plans the murder of all evil deities and wants to recreate the world in his image with himself as Grand Moff on top (*cough*dawn cataclysm*cough*). :D
-Nope. :P
Pfff. Not my loss. :P
-From the aforementioned conversation at CK that I was reading, apparently it was the moderators of the Forgotten Realms Wikia- or registered users- who erased correct information, and replaced it with misinformed/incorrect information. It is what it is.
Ok, that is teh suck.
Nonono, you'd ruin the FR even more! It's been like that since, uhh, forever! You can't change that without completely and irrevocably destroying the Realms! :P
-Whoops.
Imho much more than having an insane, paranoid pseudo sun god as patron who plans the murder of all evil deities and wants to recreate the world in his image with himself as Grand Moff on top (*cough*dawn cataclysm*cough*). :D
-Hey, hey, hey...Saying Kelemvor is cool is one thing, but don't you go dissing my man Lathander.
Pfff. Not my loss. :P
-Not mine, either. :P
Ok, that is teh suck.
-Like I said, it is what is is. What's Wikipedia, for you. Whaddya gonna do? For a brief overview of..."stuff", it's fine, but it ain't no reliable source.
1) Why, in a world with magic/clerics/giant divine blunders would people not worship gods ?
- Well, realisticaly, I can see a couple. There is first the guy who lives his life and simply doesn't care about the whole deal. Kind of a live and let live thing.
- Then, there is the fact that some worship other things such as spirits or nature... (despite it not being cannon and all that, Gann form Nevewinter Nights 2 is a perfect example).
- Then there is the Time of Troubles and Spellplague thing. If I was an individual who had lived through one or both of these, I would really start questioning just how competent the dieties really are. And lets not forget the Helm vs Tyr deathmatch that just sreams lawfull stupid to me.
2) The why the wall is there and all that:
- Dieties want to keep their ratings up. Due to the cataclysmic blunders previouly mentioned, they need something to keep people from just saying "You guys suck, I'm going atheist."
- Cosmic presevation and 99% of the population going faithless excuse ain't exactly convincing. Ok this is meta game thinking but most other DnD universes don't have that and there's no real problem in that department. And considering that there is some sort of connection between the worlds (Planescape comes to mind). Just take Greyhawk or the core DnD cosmology. They're doing fine without all that stuff.
- So it basically comes down to a system that was established by someone is almost universaly reconised as a grade SSS douche-bag and that other dieties have become dependent on and to scared to try and abolish.
3) Is it fair and all that ?
My personal opinion is that no, it's not. It's basicly punishing people for their beliefs (or lack of) which is the sort of things tyrants do. My opinion on the gods of FR as a whole, is that they are like the greek ones, mostly a bunch of jerks that are either openly evil (Loth, Bane...), Lawful Stupid (Helm, Tyr...), or just self centered.
I remind this is my opinion of a entierely fictional universe. I can be wrong and do not impose this view on the rest of humanity.
It's the job of the Priests of Kelemvor and before him Myrkul to inform everyone about the Wall of the Faithless, though tragically there are still those who have not heard its tale.
The idea is that Gods need mortals in order to stay gods and mortals need Gods to govern their respective portfolios. It's a balance of the world thing and if anyone violates this perfect balance they suffer in the Wall of the Faithless in the Fugue Plane. It is said that the greatest sin is to serve no faith at all (unless you are talking to a Cyricist and then the greatest sin is to worship anything but Cyric:the One True God :rolleye2: ). Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting tells a little about it and it is mentioned as well in Forgotten Realms:Faiths and Pantheons.
Thats nice for everyone, unless you are a Kir-lanan. What the heck could they do? They were abandoned by the gods from the start on and no one cares for them. God nead mortals, nice, why is there no one of them giving this godless people a chance? Are they smelling a bit strange for the gods?
Ps.: I'm new here, Mrs. Cunningham gave me the idea to join the forum, because there are some questions about things she could not answer. Sometime i will bring them, if i can't find them in some existing thread. I need some time to read through them.
It is said that the greatest sin is to serve no faith at all...
Yup, worse than ****, worse than murder, worse than genocide.
Is that a real world quote? Whoever said that didn't know what they were talking about.
But seriously, considering that the Faithless revere no deity, what else would you do?
Well, I did give my take on that a few pages back.
Can you imagine how crowded the Fugue Plane would become?
I thought these planes were supposed to be huge.
I see. This explains your position quite well. However, as a Candlekeep lurker, perhaps you could suggest not only giving the site a fresh design (and please, for the sake of everything digital and electronic, get rid of the frames layout :P ) ...
I don't know all the details, but I believe CK is in the process of getting new software, or something like that. Changes are going to happen.
I don't know all the details, but I believe CK is in the process of getting new software, or something like that. Changes are going to happen.
Which would be... desirable. The current website is about as attractive as the rotting carcass of a stranded whale.
Seriously... animated gifs and frames? That's sooooo 1990s.
:P
Thats nice for everyone, unless you are a Kir-lanan. What the heck could they do? They were abandoned by the gods from the start on and no one cares for them. God nead mortals, nice, why is there no one of them giving this godless people a chance? Are they smelling a bit strange for the gods?
Because they have no soul at all, therefore they don't have anything that the gods would want, plus, they were created by the corrupt energies of Bhaal's death.
Because they have no soul at all, therefore they don't have anything that the gods would want, plus, they were created by the corrupt energies of Bhaal's death.
No soul? So they are something like a robot or even a FR cylon
No soul? So they are something like a robot or even a FR cylon
Something like that.
I thought these planes were supposed to be huge.
-Some are infinite, some are finite. The Fugue Plane, it didn't mention size in PGtF. So, it's up in the air, either way you want it.
Which would be... desirable. The current website is about as attractive as the rotting carcass of a stranded whale.
-Would blowing up the rotting carcass of said whale be a viable way to get rid of the corpse?
[...] -Would blowing up the rotting carcass of said whale be a viable way to get rid of the corpse?
Yes. Small pieces decompose easier and quicker than the whole thing, and the resulting bloody pulp can be washed away much easier. :D :P
I thought these planes were supposed to be huge.
And just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Yes. Small pieces decompose easier and quicker than the whole thing, and the resulting bloody pulp can be washed away much easier. :D :P
-Have you seen the video? I know I recently have...Heh.
And just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
-However many you want.
-However many you want.
Exactly, size is only relevant in a corporeal physical world. Once you ascend beyond the need for your body, things are so much more relaxed.
Exactly, size is only relevant in a corporeal physical world. Once you ascend beyond the need for your body, things are so much more relaxed.
-As we all know via Planescape, physical mass is still a very tangible thing to many around the Planes. My comment was, being that there is no information saying X, it's up to you, so do whatever you want.
Exactly, size is only relevant in a corporeal physical world. Once you ascend beyond the need for your body, things are so much more relaxed.
Which was, uh, kind of what I was getting at. Crowding wouldn't be a problem.
-And, like I said, many of those who are faithless do not reap those benefits.
That depends on how you see the divine influence on reality. Sadly F&P doesn't tell about this and according to their F&P statblocks the deities don't have any way to influence reality in any meaningfull way (makes one wonder what they're daily work consist of).
However I prefer the "at least one deity of XY is crucial to XY happening in the world".
Like during the time when Cyric was deposed from the throne of death and Kelemvor had not yet taken the throne and no one in the realms could die.
This way everyone who eats crops does reap the benefits of the deities of nature and agriculture, because without them there would be no plant life at all.
"Lip service" implies that the prayers are insincere. The gods would deem that unacceptable.
And an insicere worshipper is a false and thus not a faithless
Not true, because people who insincerely worship deities are considered "False".
Which is all that's needed to prevent becoming part of the wall
This way everyone who eats crops does reap the benefits of the deities of nature and agriculture, because without them there would be no plant life at all.
-That's only if you want to go with the myth that Chauntea is literally Abeir-Toril. I, personally, do not ascribe to this notion.
-That's only if you want to go with the myth that Chauntea is literally Abeir-Toril. I, personally, do not ascribe to this notion.
Maybe not alone, but in concert with all other deities of nature. And if you don't worship at least one deity, you getting the benefit from their existence without supporting their existence.
If you don't ascribe to this notion, then deities are truly nothing but power-drunk entities bullying weaker beings into worshipping them.
If you don't ascribe to this notion, then deities are truly nothing but power-drunk entities bullying weaker beings into worshipping them.
-Be that as it possibly may as well be aside, the possible notion is that Chauntea is literally, physically Abeir-Toril. Or that any other deity is literally the thing he/she/it represents. That doesn't really have much bearing on whether or not deities are power-drunk entities that bully weaker beings and such. They'd do that if they were or weren't, regardless.
-That's only if you want to go with the myth that Chauntea is literally Abeir-Toril.
That's not quite right.
From Ed:-
"...Chauntea IS the land and all of its natural processes (as opposed to partial aspects of them, such as storms or the emotions and deeds of sentient inhabitants of the planet)..."
I thought about all this for a while, and my thought on where my characters go in the event of their permanent and irrevocable death.... The garbage can, shredded and stained with tears, and the spittle from my hour long argument with the cruel cruel DM. :D
-Being an Jhamdaathan psion and all, I see where you are coming from.
That's not quite right.
From Ed:-
"...Chauntea IS the land and all of its natural processes (as opposed to partial aspects of them, such as storms or the emotions and deeds of sentient inhabitants of the planet)..."
-Which changes nothing how I feel. We're reminded time and time again that the creation myths are exactly just that: myths. The commonly accepted one is still a myth, and certainly unravels a degree when put under some analysis using Faerûnian historical data we have.
I think gods go to Pittsburgh and play saxophone for an all-female cabaret when they die...
Is that a shot at the 'burgh?
"...Chauntea IS the land and all of its natural processes (as opposed to partial aspects of them, such as storms or the emotions and deeds of sentient inhabitants of the planet)..."
Case and point - Mystra is the Weave just as much as she is the Weave's caretaker.
Really, the nature gods, Mystra (weave), Selune (moon), Shar (darkness), and Chauntea (Toril) are the only few that come to mind that quite literally have a representation. Other than these few, it seems the rest are all open to interpretation as whether they are the influencing force on mortals or if the mortals subconscious popular belief are what shape the gods.
And old argument that I had for this debate was the rise/fall of the dead Three. Pre-ToT, life in Fearun was pretty typical fantasy. The common folk had simple fears when it came to evils - They feared the tyrant (someone who had power over them), they feared the murderer, and they feared the afterlife (mostly without the patron worship kind of thing or atleast the beyond/unknown). Then ToT comes along, gods walk Toril and great calamities spread. Now the argument could go that the gods lost an "edge" they had over mortals because the mortals quite literally met and interacted with the gods. So thus, they lose the whole "living amongst the clouds/Olympus" aspect of being a god. Which caused Society's view of evil to shift to something more natural, closer to home - human evil.
Then comes Cyric. He embodied human evil. A liar, a murderer, a schemer, a tyrant, a strifebringer and a deceiver. The one that didn't quite fit among his portfolios was death/the dead, and thus he lost it. But for a small time, people may have been viewing death as unjust especially following the ToT, and so he fit the mold for a time. During this time also, he lost Tyranny and Hatred, as they became a "lesser" evil, Xvim. Over time, society seemed to resettle and the tyrant again became something to fear (The swift take over of the Zhentarim, for example). Because of it, the Hatefilled Tyrant again became a big evil with Bane's resurrection.
Maybe I read to much into it, but it makes things interesting.
Is that a shot at the 'burgh?
-You've got steelers, pirates and penguins. Two of the three are ruffian types, and penguins...Well...
Maybe I read to much into it, but it makes things interesting.
-No, I agree. I never much understood the "obsession" with Bhaal, and I feel that Cyric handles the mantle admirably. He puts some characterization where as one blandness.
-You've got steelers, pirates and penguins. Two of the three are ruffian types, and penguins...Well...
Never saw the Bud Light fear the Penguins campaign in mid nineties then did you? Doobeedoobeedooooooooo......
Steelers aren't ruffians though! Just hard working, hard drinking, working class people.:D
-
I never much understood the "obsession" with Bhaal...
Much of it comes from the Baldur's Gate RPG.
Much of it comes from the Baldur's Gate RPG.
-Probably, and me never having played it...
-Probably, and me never having played it...
Heretic! To the pyre with him! :P 
Seriously, how can you not love a god who schemed for his own reincarnation by having his children slaughter each other?
:angelhideSeriously, how can you not love a god who schemed for his own reincarnation by having his children slaughter each other?
-I didn't say that I didn't like the guy. Just, the obsession with him is something that I've never shared with others. As a deity of assassins and murder, I've always thought that Cyric did a more than adequate job.
-I didn't say that I didn't like the guy. Just, the obsession with him is something that I've never shared with others. As a deity of assassins and murder, I've always thought that Cyric did a more than adequate job.
Yep, and that is the one god Cyric managed to do in as a mortal, he was just given the partfolios of the other two. Killing the god of assassins proves you are the true god of assassins IMO.
Yep, and that is the one god Cyric managed to do in as a mortal, he was just given the partfolios of the other two. Killing the god of assassins proves you are the true god of assassins IMO.
-Well, remember, Cyric did have an "ace" up his sleeve, in the form of Mask.
I'm pretty sure everyone in Faerun knows this. It's something that'd get pounded into the skulls of everyone within earshot by every single priest, cleric, or holy man of every single faith all across Faerun.
But you can't force someone to worship/love you. They could say so, but they wouldn't mean it, so putting them in the wall isn't their fault. It reminds me of what some fundie christians say, you must worship and love god or go to hell. If he is omniscient he knows you don't love him, so it's simple extortion.
-I didn't say that I didn't like the guy. Just, the obsession with him is something that I've never shared with others. As a deity of assassins and murder, I've always thought that Cyric did a more than adequate job.
I heard the book Cyric created and read, which made him crazy can effect other gods? Even Ao? It also says in the psionics handbook that the annulus can kill a diety who uses psionics, but doesn't say what level of deity would be too powerful to be effected.
Seriously, how can you not love a god who schemed for his own reincarnation by having his children slaughter each other?
Oh, please don't burn me. By the way, I've never played Baldur's Gate either;)
I heard the book Cyric created and read, which made him crazy can effect other gods? Even Ao?
-Ao, I wouldn't think it would effect, as Ao transcends mortal comprehension, but it did have an impact on Mask, when he was exposed to it.
Also, what if you leave Toril, or come there from another place and die there? Are you still required to worship a god even if you don't live there anymore, or start worshipping if you come there?
-All questions that don't have answers.
-Ao, I wouldn't think it would effect, as Ao transcends mortal comprehension, but it did have an impact on Mask, when he was exposed to it.
But the gods aren't mortal. Wouldn't they be beyond mortal comprehension as well?
-Ao, I wouldn't think it would effect, as Ao transcends mortal comprehension, but it did have an impact on Mask, when he was exposed to it.
-All questions that don't have answers.
All questions that Authors/Members can't give answers to. All questions have answers.
But the gods aren't mortal. Wouldn't they be beyond mortal comprehension as well?
-That deities are or are not mortal does not have anything to do with X being beyond mortal comprehension.
-That deities are or are not mortal does not have anything to do with X being beyond mortal comprehension.
Any god can tell a mortal what they want to do, by coming down to their level, if they want to tell them what they want or want them to do it's easy.
-Ao, an overdeity, the mortal mind cannot comprehend fully. Other deities, the mortal mind can comprehend, to a degree greater than of Ao. Ao, we know not exactly what it is, what it can do, what it wants, and so on and so on. It is an alien entity. Deities, we know what they are (more or less), we know what they can do (more or less), we know what they want (more or less), and so on and so on.
And as for the complaints of why the faithless should be punished so: I don't see why anyone would be so adamant about the unfairness of the situation unless it reminds them too much of themselves.
Actually, what I see in it is that, due to the Time of Troubles, everyone pretty much got shown that there's a bigger power than ALL the gods put together. Therefore they aren't the true power, they're just bigger fish in somebody else's pond.
The rationalist in me rejects the notion of worshipping these gods in the same way I reject worshipping a bully or a king; they aren't the true ruler of all creation. Indeed, the fact that they need the energy provided by mortal belief and can be killed and even replaced by mortals like my neighbor Bob furthers the rationalist in me to reject the worship of these beings.
Frankly, anything that NEEDS worship to continue its existance isn't a god, its a parasite. It feeds on beliefs of mortals and returns a fraction of that power to its chosen favorites to try and keep the masses cowed into continuing to feed it.
Do I respect beings like that for their power; certainly. Worship them? Never. If I'm going to worship someone I'm going to worship the TRUE power; the one that doesn't need my belief in order to exist, but exists de facto; the one who can elevate or cast down the "gods" and even promote mere mortals to replace them at their whim.
I am speaking of course of Ao. Anything less is no different than worshipping the local lord because he has the power to make my existance pleasant or painful at his whim. It speaks to me of cowerdice; submitting to a protection racket (which when you really look at serfdom is what the core of feudalism was) because you're too afraid of the alternative.
Basically, the Realms has a situation where worshipping any god other than Ao is counter-intuitive (they aren't omnipotent or omniscient) and yet is required for your existance to not be negated in the afterlife. To place the analogy in a Christian perspective it's like being told that the only way to ensure you salvation is to worship your pastor.
If I choose to worship Ao I am regarded as one of the faithless and punished for it. You're rewarded for supporting the lie (that these "gods" are the masters of creation) and punished for enbracing the truth (that all the so-called gods are subject to a higher power).
And yet, I have had more than one character embrace the worship of Ao precisely because it is the truth and the truth is its own reward.
Or to sum it up with my Aoist Creed;
"Ao is my deity because he is omnipotent and omniscient. He doesn't need me to worship him, which is why he's the only one worthy of actual worship. Also, my deity can kick your deity's ass and your deity knows it."
However, why should any deity invest in such an "open soul project"?
If your deity isn't omnipotent enough to create such a place with less than conscious effort they aren't worth being worshipped to begin with.
But the gods aren't mortal.
The "gods" CAN die (and have... rather often) ergo they ARE mortal (just very powerful and long-lived).
Frankly, anything that NEEDS worship to continue its existance isn't a god, its a parasite. It feeds on beliefs of mortals and returns a fraction of that power to its chosen favorites to try and keep the masses cowed into continuing to feed it.
-Note, that this isn't inherently true, in all cases. The power that composes a deity is gathered from many sources. The deity's worshippers are certainly one of those sources. Another is the portfolio that the deity has possession of. While some portfolios are very specific, and thus, less powerful (the subtle change in musical trends, a la Finder Wyvernspur), many are broad, and very powerful (death). As evidenced by many deities who have little or no worship, but yet, continue to exist, a deity can survive solely on the power of his/her/it's portfolio.
Remember at the end of Waterdeep (Time of Troubles novel) that AO turns and announces to some even greater power that all is back to normal in the realms, so even AO isn't the supreme being, just the local manager.
-The "DM".
Remember at the end of Waterdeep (Time of Troubles novel) that AO turns and announces to some even greater power that all is back to normal in the realms, so even AO isn't the supreme being, just the local manager.
"Wait, are you telling me we're fighting janitors or something?" --Edison Trent
:P
Remember at the end of Waterdeep (Time of Troubles novel) that AO turns and announces to some even greater power that all is back to normal in the realms, so even AO isn't the supreme being, just the local manager.
Right. However, Ao is the highest known power. Given human nature it just doesn't make a lot of sense for humanity to be worshipping anything other than the highest known power. While there may be countless real world religions out there, no one picks their particular belief system because they consider it to be second (or third or twentieth) best.
Frankly, the notion of having to pick a particular deity in a pantheon runs counter to how historical polytheistic religions worked; namely that you worshipped the pantheon as a whole because it was the highest power and took specific actions regarding certain aspects of existance as needed (ie. making sacrifices to the war god before going off to war, praying to the nature goddess for a bountiful harvest, etc).
Likewise, all the real world pantheons had a pretty unified vision of the afterlife wherein all the souls of the dead went, more or less, to the same place (sometimes there were distinctions based upon how well you adhered to the overall morality of the civilization). The notion of picking a singular god among many and then getting a custom tailored afterlife is something particular to the Realms and Great Wheel cosmologies and makes comparisons to real world religions (be they polytheistic or monotheistic) difficult.
What will be interesting to see is if/how the cosmology of the afterlife will be changed in 4e. From what I've read, the new Astral Sea/Elemental Chaos/Feywild/Shadowfell/Far Realm presented in the core books is intended to be the new cosmology for the Realms as well (I remember reading that they felt the different cosmologies weren't working for them so they were creating a unified one for the core/FR).
Frankly, the notion of having to pick a particular deity in a pantheon runs counter to how historical polytheistic religions worked; namely that you worshipped the pantheon as a whole because it was the highest power and took specific actions regarding certain aspects of existance as needed (ie. making sacrifices to the war god before going off to war, praying to the nature goddess for a bountiful harvest, etc).
In some cases humans do this. I am not sure in wich novel, but somewhere it was mentioned that most sailors, even the ones who worship other gods, would sacrifice to Umberlee before the ship went to sea. Isn't it even mentioned in some rulesbook that most people had their patron deity but also offer the specific deitiy for a specific situation his/her sacrifice (maybe if some merchant travels he sacrifice shaundakul and so on, if he is in foodbusiness he sacrifices chauntea also,....)?
Frankly, the notion of having to pick a particular deity in a pantheon runs counter to how historical polytheistic religions worked; namely that you worshipped the pantheon as a whole because it was the highest power and took specific actions regarding certain aspects of existance as needed (ie. making sacrifices to the war god before going off to war, praying to the nature goddess for a bountiful harvest, etc).
-Such is a very common thing in the Forgotten Realms, pantheon worship.