So, comments? Observations? Interesting additions? Ideas?
I haven't finished reading it myself but I will post when I have!
(apologies if this is a duplicate)
The first thing I noticed with the FR(P/C)Gs is that there is virtually zero tie in with the novels.
How so?
The first things I noticed were that Everska doesn't have a write-up of its own and that Elven Subraces have become:
"Although there are marked differences between eladrin and their cousin races, eladrin have subgroupings of their own that some folk mistake for different races."
And the lack of NPC fluff. As far as I can see, the entry for Cormyr (for example) doesn't have a single name in it. Not even the king. There is much "House Obarskyr" but no specifics.
-Having looked over some of the powers in the FRPG, I'm wondering why they aren't better tied to the lore. For example, the Eyes of Sehanine Moonbow feat. More or less, it allows you to reroll a saving throw. Alright...Why? Why is Sehanine Moonbow tied to this arbitrary ability?
Sehanine has always been the goddess of fate, secrets, mystery and destiny. basically divination. maybe it's based on that?
I thought Sehanine no longer existed in the FR?
-Excuse me, it was Selûne. But still, the general point remains.
The Campaign Guide gives a larger overview of the setting, and contains information, rumors, and adventure hooks that the DM can dole out to the Players through skill checks or events they experience. However, the clear intention is to leave the details of the world vague enough for DMs to incorporate their own ideas or insert other adventures with relative ease.
The first thing I noticed with the FR(P/C)Gs is that there is virtually zero tie in with the novels.
What are you talking about? While there is a large shift in the timeline, many of the significant people, places, and events features in recent novels are referenced or extrapolated into the new Campaign Guide.
The entries for Sembia, Netheril, and the Shadow Keep (cosmology) tie into the Twilight War trilogy.
The entry for Myth Drannor ties into the Last Mythal trilogy.
The entry for Thay ties into the Haunted Lands trilogy.
The entry for Waterdeep ties into the Blackstaff Tower novel.
The entry for the High Moor ties into the Blackstaff novel.
The entry for High Imaskar ties into the Darkvision novel.
The entry for Lururar and the Kingdom of Many Arrows ties into The Orc King novel.
-Having looked over some of the powers in the FRPG, I'm wondering why they aren't better tied to the lore. For example, the Eyes of Sehanine Moonbow feat. More or less, it allows you to reroll a saving throw. Alright...Why? Why is Sehanine Moonbow tied to this arbitrary ability?
Eyes of Selûne. It specifically states in the flavor text of the power that "Selûne watches over you. When you foes overwhelm you, she grants you a silver flicker of hope". One of her tenets in the same book states "Never lose hope or faith, for every force in the world ebbs and flows".
I personally think the vast majority of Regional Benefits, Paragon Paths, Feats, and Rituals are fairly well tied into the setting lore. What specifically seemed at odds, and why?
The first things I noticed were that Everska doesn't have a write-up of its own and that Elven Subraces have become:
"Although there are marked differences between eladrin and their cousin races, eladrin have subgroupings of their own that some folk mistake for different races."
And the lack of NPC fluff. As far as I can see, the entry for Cormyr (for example) doesn't have a single name in it. Not even the king. There is much "House Obarskyr" but no specifics.
Not every region was covered. The chapter "presents the most interesting lands of Faerun from the perspective of adventurers". I imagine some of these places (like say Evermeet) are meant to be discovered by the Player Characters, rather than be places where they are born.
As far as Eladrin and Elves are concerned, the FR is no longer supposed to be a separate rules system from "Core" D&D. If anything, I am content that they were allowed to still use terminology like Sun Elf and Moon Elf at all.
Personally I always felt the Elven subraces of 3E were superfluous and silly, where players were much less interested in roleplaying a culture and much more interested in rollplaying a humanoid ECL 0 race that gave them a +2 bonus to whichever ability scores they wanted to min-max. I personally like the fact that Sun Elves and Moon Elves represent family and lineages of Eladrin rather than difference races entirely.
As for NPC fluff--the Player's Guide is meant to only provide common knowledge. This is the kind of information you have when starting out as a 0th level character, straight from your background as a commoner before you trained in any knowledge skills or picked up a sword.
As a general rule commoners do not refer to their King or Queen by their first name. As such, I cannot imagine a 1st level character having that knowledge to begin with when there is no reason for them to have overheard it in conversation nor sought it out up until that point in their life when it became necessary. Seeing how he reigned for over 70 years, I cannot imagine any newly created adventurers needing to differentiate between this king or the previous one.
Moreover, realize that there are parts of the modern real world that we live in where people do not know the name of their President, have never read a book, and live and die without ever stepping out beyond 25 miles of their birthplace. While most folk in the Realms are literate, that does not mean they had a formal education, nor does it mean that they read anything beyond lender notes, tax ledgers, and perhaps a broadsheet concerning local gossip. Most 1st level adventurers are not going to begin the game with a great deal of knowledge about the world they live in nor are they likely to have needed such knowledge in their previous lives.
on p.62 ... its an example "Simbarch of Algarond" ... is that Elmara? ... I could see this as a bit of a hint of things to come... if that is supposed to be Elmara that makes things (everything even) ...interesting.
Some of the artwork in the guide has been used before, and unless I am mistaken I do recall seeing that image somewhere else. That said, I have a few theories as to why the Simbarch is wearing Elminster's old (3E) adventuring garb, which I might share in another thread.
What specifically seemed at odds, and why?
-As I said, most of these feats seem like arbitrary boons. Selûne is a deity of divination, so followers of Selûne could also get a plus to their AC. Or, a plus to divination magic. Or, or, or.
The lore is almost completely covered already in more detail in the campaign guide.
That's how it's supposed to be. The PG is for players, who aren't supposed to know everything the DM does about an area or an organization.
Not every region was covered. The chapter "presents the most interesting lands of Faerun from the perspective of adventurers". I imagine some of these places (like say Evermeet) are meant to be discovered by the Player Characters, rather than be places where they are born.
Indeed, and yet somewhere as large and important as Evereska isn't covered a major centre of Elven civilisation... and a place that pretty much hands a new player a motivation: "With Netheril on our doorstep I felt like I had to do something."... and there is no section on it. This is a place to be born. To me this is a glaring omission and there are others.
To not give such information that might be heard as whispered tales about far off places, in a book as short as this where page-count surely cannot have been a worry...
As far as Eladrin and Elves are concerned, the FR is no longer supposed to be a separate rules system from "Core" D&D. If anything, I am content that they were allowed to still use terminology like Sun Elf and Moon Elf at all.
I wasn't looking for seperate rules, I have been looking for seperate fluff. You can maintain a racial subtype as a roleplaying option without having it reflected in the rules.
Personally I always felt the Elven subraces of 3E were superfluous and silly, where players were much less interested in roleplaying a culture and much more interested in rollplaying a humanoid ECL 0 race that gave them a +2 bonus to whichever ability scores they wanted to min-max. I personally like the fact that Sun Elves and Moon Elves represent family and lineages of Eladrin rather than difference races entirely.
Good for them. Removing options for my roleplay because other people can't be bothered to use them? Not a good thing. Family and lineages are superb things, especially among such a long-lived race with so much history but this isn't an either/or. There is no dilemma here. You can retain them as being Eladrin family and lineage sub-types while preserving racial identity.
As for NPC fluff--the Player's Guide is meant to only provide common knowledge. This is the kind of information you have when starting out as a 0th level character, straight from your background as a commoner before you trained in any knowledge skills or picked up a sword.
As a general rule commoners do not refer to their King or Queen by their first name. As such, I cannot imagine a 1st level character having that knowledge to begin with when there is no reason for them to have overheard it in conversation nor sought it out up until that point in their life when it became necessary. Seeing how he reigned for over 70 years, I cannot imagine any newly created adventurers needing to differentiate between this king or the previous one.
Your who says the what now? Quite apart from the fact that any young person growing up in a monarchy (which I did) will be told by parents and other authority figures to whom their loyalty is owed... in any feudal system the proto-adventurer will hear from bards, tax gatherers, town criers and so on who the monarch/authority figure is. In a feudal society (which most of these are) I can't imagine a young commoner not knowing who their mayor/provincial lord or lady/monarch is.
Any adventurer in Cormyr, for example, will bear a charter from the Crown. I would be very surprised if it didn't mention, somewhere on it, who is wearing that crown these days.
Moreover, realize that there are parts of the modern real world that we live in where people do not know the name of their President, have never read a book, and live and die without ever stepping out beyond 25 miles of their birthplace. While most folk in the Realms are literate, that does not mean they had a formal education, nor does it mean that they read anything beyond lender notes, tax ledgers, and perhaps a broadsheet concerning local gossip. Most 1st level adventurers are not going to begin the game with a great deal of knowledge about the world they live in nor are they likely to have needed such knowledge in their previous lives.
But they will know people in their area. They will know their town elder, the messenger of the crown and a few people of legendary or historical value from passing bards. Are these things in the FRPG? No. Not as far as I can see.
You may be happy with the amount of information presented, and I am glad indeed for you if you are. I, however, am not.
You can maintain a racial subtype as a roleplaying option without having it reflected in the rules.
They do have it as a roleplaying option and have it reflected in the rules. The Eladrin section in the PG talks about moon elves and sun elves, and the feat section contains a feat to identify yourself as one or the other and gain a benefit from that choice.
Removing options for my roleplay because other people can't be bothered to use them?
They are still available, as I already stated.
And what you quoted her saying wasn't that other people didn't bother to use them, only that they were used for min-maxing aka "I want to be an elf, but I want a bonus to Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha instead."
They do have it as a roleplaying option and have it reflected in the rules. The Eladrin section in the PG talks about moon elves and sun elves, and the feat section contains a feat to identify yourself as one or the other and gain a benefit from that choice.
They have it reflected in a single feat each (mutually exclusive, thankfully) as far as I can see, mechanically. And as I quoted from the PG Moon and Sun Elves are not presented as different subraces. In fact, the view that they were is described as being mistaken in the PG... it would seem that even they have been mistaken in the past. The Sun/Moon Elf historical tensions suddenly make a lot less sense to me as a narrative concept.
They are still available, as I already stated. And what you quoted her saying wasn't that other people didn't bother to use them, only that they were used for min-maxing aka "I want to be an elf, but I want a bonus to Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha instead."
I should rather have said that people weren't using them as roleplay options. The point of this thread, when I started it, was to explore the effect of the FRPG and FRCG on lore not on what mechanical basis people used to decide whether they wanted the existence sub-races or not.
The lore, to me, has a value in and of itself. As a part of this lore, so do the sub-races. I see no reason to subjugate that lore without reason. This could have been handled consistently. It was retconned.
In fact, the view that they were is described as being mistaken in the PG... it would seem that even they have been mistaken in the past.
It says that "some folk" mistake them for different races, when in fact, they are just different lineages of the same race.
The Sun/Moon Elf historical tensions suddenly make a lot less sense to me as a narrative concept.
How's that? Do you have to be a different race/subrace in a mechanical sense to have different goals and political positions? There's nothing to prevent sun elf/moon elf historical tensions at all, and there's no removal of the lore distinctions between them. Moon elves still tend to live among humans more than other "elves," and sun elves still tend to be aloof and distant. The sun elves still dominate the population of Evermeet, and still have to deal with the fact that everyone seems to think a moon elf dynasty should maintain rule over the island.
Even their personalities are described differently...
"Moon elves and sun elves are worlds apart insofar as their dealings with other races are concerned. The moon elves are friendly and outgoing, curious and bold, the first to agree to any adventure regardless of the danger it presents. Moon elves are also the last to withdraw if a situation sours, such is their commitment to whatever cause they champion.
Sun elves are cautious. They detach themselves from their predicaments to consider all their options before committing to any course of action. Their decidedly long view can make them frustrating companions, because they always weigh their choices before making a decision."
The lore, to me, has a value in and of itself. As a part of this lore, so do the sub-races.
And the sub-races still exist without having completely separate racial mechanics. You can be a moon elf. Sun elf. Wood elf. Wild elf. Shield dwarf. Gold dwarf. The halfling subraces seem to have vanished (though ghostwise get a feat), but the others are still present.
It says that "some folk" mistake them for different races, when in fact, they are just different lineages of the same race.
My point exactly. They no longer have a racial difference. Which is odd because in a lot of the novels I have read the Elves seem pretty sure there is a racial difference.
How's that? Do you have to be a different race/subrace in a mechanical sense to have different goals and political positions? There's nothing to prevent sun elf/moon elf historical tensions at all, and there's no removal of the lore distinctions between them. Moon elves still tend to live among humans more than other "elves," and sun elves still tend to be aloof and distant. The sun elves still dominate the population of Evermeet, and still have to deal with the fact that everyone seems to think a moon elf dynasty should maintain rule over the island.
Oh for the love of.... I have said it several times but obviously I am not being clear enough.
I do not need a mechanical difference. I want a fluff maintained racial difference. There is a removal or minimization of the lore distinction between them, because the nature of that distinction has been changed. Before they were seperate true-breeding races that did not evolve. Now they are the same race that has a different lineage (although how that came about when they don't evolve and breed true I don't know). This is at the very least an alteration of lore. An "it has always been this way" alteration. A retcon.
Even their personalities are described differently...
I quote from the PG and yet you assumed I haven't read it. I like the fact that the differences in outlook and behaviour have been maintained. I do not like the fact that their impact has been lessened (Ref. Rich Baker's comment about the editors pushing the use of "Eladrin" in the FRCG) and the change in racial sub-type lore (the lack of Moon Elf/Sun Elf material in the FRCG and the descriptions present in the FRPG).
And the sub-races still exist without having completely separate racial mechanics. You can be a moon elf. Sun elf. Wood elf. Wild elf. Shield dwarf. Gold dwarf. The halfling subraces seem to have vanished (though ghostwise get a feat), but the others are still present.
I am putting money now on the Elven politics being Eladrin vs. Elves or Eladrin vs. Others. Sub-racial dynamics? I doubt it.
And where are the Aquatic, Avariel and Lythari?
Being different races mechanically is a 3E construct, isn't it? Weren't they all just elves in 2E as far as the game was concerned? Aside from Drow, that is.
No, they had separate stats for each other. 3rd edition only continued that. They had even more differences in 2nd edition. Sun Elves were better riders with the racial bonus they had.
Being different races mechanically is a 3E construct, isn't it? Weren't they all just elves in 2E as far as the game was concerned? Aside from Drow, that is.
My 2nd Ed "Complete Book of Elves" has mechanical differences by subrace.
No, they had separate stats for each other. 3rd edition only continued that. They had even more differences in 2nd edition. Sun Elves were better riders with the racial bonus they had.
Riding was a nonweapon proficiency, and nonweapon proficiencies were described as an optional rule in the 2E Players Handbook. Is this sort of thing the extent of the differences?
Riding was a nonweapon proficiency, and nonweapon proficiencies were described as an optional rule in the 2E Players Handbook. Is this sort of thing the extent of the differences?
The previously mentioned resource lists stat and skill differences in addition to fluff differences with lifetimes and eyesight. The subraces in 2E seem to be mechanically distinct.
Riding was a nonweapon proficiency, and nonweapon proficiencies were described as an optional rule in the 2E Players Handbook. Is this sort of thing the extent of the differences?
Sun Elves had +1 INT and -1 CON and +1 bonus to all riding proficiencies.
Moon Elves had +1 DEX and -1 CON or WIS and no bonus to riding.
Green Elves had the standar +1 DEX -1 CON or could choose +1 STR -1 WIS
Sea Elves had +1 DEX -1 INT, the +1 bonus with bows was replaced with +1 with spears and tridents.
It's on Elves of Evermeet.
That sounds a bit outside the main campaign sourcebook. I imagine a lot of 2E FR players had nothing beyond the Players Handbook to create elves with.
I do not need a mechanical difference. I want a fluff maintained racial difference. There is a removal or minimization of the lore distinction between them, because the nature of that distinction has been changed. Before they were seperate true-breeding races that did not evolve. Now they are the same race that has a different lineage (although how that came about when they don't evolve and breed true I don't know). This is at the very least an alteration of lore. An "it has always been this way" alteration. A retcon.
ALL the elven subraces (including dark elves, avariel, sea elves and lythari) can interbreed. The offspring just favors one parent over the other.
No fluff was lost. it's all still there. Sun Elves didn't become less aloof because they got +2 Dex and Moon elves now also get the +2 Int. You are the one confusing fluff and mechanics, please stop.
ALL the elven subraces (including dark elves, avariel, sea elves and lythari) can interbreed. The offspring just favors one parent over the other.
No fluff was lost. it's all still there. Sun Elves didn't become less aloof because they got +2 Dex and Moon elves now also get the +2 Int. You are the one confusing fluff and mechanics, please stop.
Moon elves where never the most sharp minded of the elves, so that +2 to INT goes against what they are, just as the +2 to DEX for Sun Elves.
ALL the elven subraces (including dark elves, avariel, sea elves and lythari) can interbreed. The offspring just favors one parent over the other.
Um, I said as much... hence the "true-breeding" part of the post you quoted.
I didn't say they couldn't interbreed. If you are going to correct me than please actually read what I wrote.
No fluff was lost. it's all still there. Sun Elves didn't become less aloof because they got +2 Dex and Moon elves now also get the +2 Int. You are the one confusing fluff and mechanics, please stop.
Really? Then why are you the one mentioning stats? I mentioned mechanical differences only when referred to by other posters. In fact I have said, multiple times, that I don't care about the mechanical differences. What I do care about is the marginalisation of the fluff differences... like the fact that the write-ups for the Elven cities don't mention the sub-races at all (apart from a single mention of star elves in the yuirwood area, I think). That is a the kind of difference I am querying and am unhappy about.
When you start actually addressing my points I will stop.
Really? Then why are you the one mentioning stats? I mentioned mechanical differences only when referred to by other posters. In fact I have said, multiple times, that I don't care about the mechanical differences. What I do care about is the marginalisation of the fluff differences... like the fact that the write-ups for the Elven cities don't mention the sub-races at all (apart from a single mention of star elves in the yuirwood area, I think). That is a the kind of difference I am querying and am unhappy about.
When you start actually addressing my points I will stop.
The only complaint I've seen you have is that now Sun, Moon, and Star Elves are all now mechanically Eladrin.
Your argument appears to be thus (I could be wrong, but this is how it reads):
WotC now calls sun, moon and star elves Eladrin --> sun, moon and star elves are now exactly the same --> all fluff differentiating them is gone --> this makes you a sad panda.
our rebuttal:
WotC now calls sun, moon and star elves Eladrin --> this is purely mechanical --> all the fluff is still there in the form of sourcebooks (differences are mentioned in the FRCG and, while I don't have it yet, others have mentioned the differences listed in the FRPG) --> be a happy panda, for nothing is wrong fluff wise with the elves (as long as we ignore the drow/dark elf/green elf b.s. and the Sehanine/Hanali/avariel-goddess not being Angharradh b.s.)
-What? People need information on Elves? They should see Elves of Faerûn, then!
-What? :P
18DELTA ;)
-What? :P
18DELTA ;)
-Hmm...If you don't know, that must mean that Merrik does!
The only complaint I've seen you have is that now Sun, Moon, and Star Elves are all now mechanically Eladrin.
Your argument appears to be thus (I could be wrong, but this is how it reads):
WotC now calls sun, moon and star elves Eladrin --> sun, moon and star elves are now exactly the same --> all fluff differentiating them is gone --> this makes you a sad panda.
No. WotC now calls sun, moon and star elves Eladrin. Editors are pushing for the continued use of Eladrin. The races that were differentiated on the basis of being sun, moon and star elves are now being referred to without that fluff differentiation. My fear has been that from this moment forwards those subraces will be minimized in fluff (if they don't refer to them in descriptions of politics, history or in novels then they effectively don't exist).
our rebuttal:
WotC now calls sun, moon and star elves Eladrin --> this is purely mechanical -->
Not if they do it in the fluff it isn't purely mechanical.
all the fluff is still there in the form of sourcebooks (differences are mentioned in the FRCG
Really? Where?
I have the FRCG, and I have just checked. There is not a single mention of a subrace in the entires for Evereska, Evermeet or Myth Drannor. It mentions several families (Moonflower and Durothil for example) and even some people (Duirsar and Ilsevele Miritar) but doesn't mention once that one of the reasons for the Moonflower/Durothil tensions is race (Moon/Gold) or the racial background of those people.
I found two references to a subrace (as I have mentioned before) and those are to Star elves in Sildeyuir and Sea elves in the Sea of Fallen stars (neither of which seem to be mentioned in the FRPG). As far as I can tell the other subraces are entirely missing from the FRCG. So if you have found them please tell me where I can do so. Because that would change my take on this fundamentally.
and, while I don't have it yet, others have mentioned the differences listed in the FRPG) --> be a happy panda, for nothing is wrong fluff wise with the elves (as long as we ignore the drow/dark elf/green elf b.s. and the Sehanine/Hanali/avariel-goddess not being Angharradh b.s.)
Moon and Sun elf differences are stated in the FRPG, thankfully. But even the fluff there has changed as they are now lineages rather than subraces... and are not even illustrated, because the wonderful figure present in the 3E FRCS illustrating these differences is entirely absent. The racial tensions now make as much sense as me disliking my neighbours because they have red hair and like line-dancing.
...and I was already ignoring as much of that other stuff as I can, although my ability to do that is attenuated by the fact that I am a novel reader not a game player. So the "its your Realms" trope doesn't even come into it.
Your who says the what now? Quite apart from the fact that any young person growing up in a monarchy (which I did) will be told by parents and other authority figures to whom their loyalty is owed... in any feudal system the proto-adventurer will hear from bards, tax gatherers, town criers and so on who the monarch/authority figure is. In a feudal society (which most of these are) I can't imagine a young commoner not knowing who their mayor/provincial lord or lady/monarch is.
I have to admit, neither can I. Also, I've read many of the novels about Cormyr, and it seemed to me that the people of Cormyr (regardless of station) all seemed to at least know the name of the current monarch.
-There aren't illustrations of Sun/Star/Moon/Wood Elves in the book?
There are illustrations that are certainly Elven/Eladrin in form. But they are uncaptioned (as far as I can see).
What I was looking for is a racial lineup such as might be seen in the FRCS (on page 14 in my copy). That kind of comparative image is not present. I had hoped we might see something along those lines after looking at the art in articles such as the "Fractured Family" in Dragon 361. I mean there are the ones in the Core PHB but since the appearance and fluff for the subraces is supposed to be different for FR, I had thought that they would use the "a picture is worth a thousand words" type approach. Especially considering how damn short the FRPG is.
That sounds a bit outside the main campaign sourcebook. I imagine a lot of 2E FR players had nothing beyond the Players Handbook to create elves with.
That doesn't mean the supplemental information about the elven subraces didn't exist. You wondered about it, and a few other posters here gave you the answer.
ALL the elven subraces (including dark elves, avariel, sea elves and lythari) can interbreed. The offspring just favors one parent over the other.
That's what he meant by "true breeding".
4E tieflings are considered a "true breeding" race, but they can still mate with humans (offspring are always tieflings).
There are illustrations that are certainly Elven/Eladrin in form. But they are uncaptioned (as far as I can see).
-Then there aren't identifiable images of Sun/Moon/Star/Wood Elves.
That's what he meant by "true breeding".
4E tieflings are considered a "true breeding" race, but they can still mate with humans (offspring are always tieflings).
Yet again, your Ladyship, you know exactly what I was trying to say. Are you sure you aren't camping out in the back of my brain somewhere?
-Then there aren't identifiable images of Sun/Moon/Star/Wood Elves.
By that logic, no there aren't any identifiable images of the Elven races. Much as I like Sherlock Holmes as a character I have little desire to take the description of a Moon Elf given in the PG and apply it to every pointy eared denizen pictured to see if that is one. Captions or the racial lineup please!
They no longer have a racial difference.
They never had a racial difference. They had sub-races, which were different lineages of the same race.
I want a fluff maintained racial difference.
And you get that, unless you ignore them explicitly spelling out that moon elves and sun elves are different fluff-wise (but not mechanics-wise). They live in different places, look different, have different outlooks, personality traits, and cultures.
Everything used to describe them makes them different from eachother, with the exception of the mechanics that make them both eladrin. If you can't get past that, then you are indeed fixated on mechanics, not fluff.
There is a removal or minimization of the lore distinction between them, because the nature of that distinction has been changed.
How? Moon elves and sun elves are still sub-races of the same race. Sure, it's a change from them being the same race as wild/wood elves, but their connection to eachother is the same, fluff-wise, as it was in previous editions.
Before they were seperate true-breeding races that did not evolve.
No, they were sub-races of the same true-breeding race. As in, lineages of the same race.
Now they are the same race that has a different lineage (although how that came about when they don't evolve and breed true I don't know).
You seem to think that "sub-race" and "race" are the same thing, when they are not. Elves and humans are different races. Different kinds of elves are still the same race.
I quote from the PG and yet you assumed I haven't read it.
Because your posts seem to bear out that you didn't read it, or at least that you didn't absorb the information actually in the book.
I like the fact that the differences in outlook and behaviour have been maintained.
Differences in outlook, behavior, appearance, and culture have all been maintained, which is all fluff. The very same fluff you are complaining is lacking, while at the same time stating you like that it has been maintained.
I do not like the fact that their impact has been lessened (Ref. Rich Baker's comment about the editors pushing the use of "Eladrin" in the FRCG) and the change in racial sub-type lore (the lack of Moon Elf/Sun Elf material in the FRCG and the descriptions present in the FRPG).
They push the use of the word eladrin to make it abundantly clear to people playing the game that in terms of mechanics, they are eladrin.
And where are the Aquatic, Avariel and Lythari?
In a shallow grave, hopefully. Elf glut was the absolute worst thing about previous editions of the Realms.
You claim you don't care about mechanics, but the crux of your complaint points entirely towards you being dissatisfied with them having the same mechanical traits.
In a shallow grave, hopefully. Elf glut was the absolute worst thing about previous editions of the Realms.
It's only your opinion, not the true. I happen to like the different elven sub-races.
It's only your opinion, not the true. I happen to like the different elven sub-races.
but its comes down to fluff vs. mechanics. I love the different cultures, but hated the 10+ sub race rules.
but its comes down to fluff vs. mechanics. I love the different cultures, but hated the 10+ sub race rules.
Word up.
I don't mind having elves of different areas having cultural or appearance differences. I do mind, however, those elves having entirely different base mechanics. That's why I like their whole racial feat setup in 4e, which allows you to provide ways to mechanically differentiate things like moon elves from sun elves, without having to have umpteenth racial mechanic writeups for each one.
It's only your opinion, not the true.
Duh? I don't spout off my opinion like it's gospel truth. Anything that doesn't deal with facts (like the claim that there's no fluff difference between sun elves and moon elves) is obviously my opinion.
but its comes down to fluff vs. mechanics. I love the different cultures, but hated the 10+ sub race rules.
-There was only 9:
Moon Elves
Sun Elves
Star Elves
Wood Elves
Wild Elves
Lythari
Avariel
Aquatic Elves
Drow Elves
-There was only 9:
Moon Elves
Sun Elves
Star Elves
Wood Elves
Wild Elves
Lythari
Avariel
Aquatic Elves
Drow Elves
oh..consider my argument refuted.
-There was only 9:
Moon Elves
Sun Elves
Star Elves
Wood Elves
Wild Elves
Lythari
Avariel
Aquatic Elves
Drow Elves
Technically, at the end of 3rd, because of the drow series they did, there were also "dark elves" as a distinct subrace from drow or the others. I don't think they ever did a game writeup for them, but technically, that makes 10.
oh..consider my argument refuted.
-No problem. :P
Technically, at the end of 3rd, because of the drow series they did, there were also "dark elves" as a distinct subrace from drow or the others. I don't think they ever did a game writeup for them, but technically, that makes 10.
-Nope. The Dark Elves were a branch of the Green Elven family before they were cursed in -10,000 DR. Thus, those who had the curse reverted became Dark Elves once more, which made them Green Elves (Wild Elves, in 3e terminology).
-Nope. The Dark Elves were a branch of the Green Elven family before they were cursed in -10,000 DR. Thus, those who had the curse reverted became Dark Elves once more, which made them Green Elves (Wild Elves, in 3e terminology).
So, 10,000 years of just moving into a deep forest and interbreeding is enough to make wood elves distinct from sun, moon, and wild elves (the three subraces that the wood elf subrace sprang from), but 10,000 years and several magical, subrace changing events aren't enough to make dark elves (who were once green elves who were transformed into drow, then transformed back into dark elves, all by huge world-changing events) a distinct subrace?
That strikes me as a completely silly distinction, especially when the events surrounding the dark elves is much more likely to spawn a subrace because of world-wide magical changes that occurred. Wood elves were the same thing as wild elves in 1e/2e, and they didn't get split until 3e (which was because of the fact that 3e separated the two, because of the difference between Greyhawk's wood elves and the grugach/wild elves), and they warrant a subrace, but twice-changed dark elves do not?
So, 10,000 years of just moving into a deep forest and interbreeding is enough to make wood elves distinct from sun, moon, and wild elves (the three subraces that the wood elf subrace sprang from), but 10,000 years and several magical, subrace changing events aren't enough to make dark elves (who were once green elves who were transformed into drow, then transformed back into dark elves, all by huge world-changing events) a distinct subrace?
-The entire schpiel in RoF concerning Wood Elves being an amalgamation of Wild, Sun and Moon Elves is inherently wrong, and contradicts world continuity, being that Elves breed true, and do not evolve in that manner, and should simply be discounted as canon, as I do.
-That said, the change to make Dark Elves a branch of the Green Elven "family" is relatively recent, in AGHotR. While I do not necessarily agree with it, there is no real canon that it invalidates. There were never stats for Dark Elves, other than mentions of Dark Elves being Elves.
They never had a racial difference. They had sub-races, which were different lineages of the same race.
Well, your points seem to be based on the semantic difference between Race and sub-race (mechanical) and my use of Race (fluff).
I am using Race as a fluff term. In our own world do we talk about "sub-race" relations? Sub-racial tensions? Sub-racial equality.
No. We don't. And it was in that sense that I used the word.
I started this thread as a fluff thread, I am attempting to discuss things in fluff terms.
No, they were sub-races of the same true-breeding race. As in, lineages of the same race.
True-breeding sub-races of the same non true-breeding race actually. When Elves breed with each other you get an Elf of one sub-race (true-breeding subracial cousins of a single race). When Elves breed with other races you get a mix (non-truebreeding racial mix).
They push the use of the word eladrin to make it abundantly clear to people playing the game that in terms of mechanics, they are eladrin.
And you think this won't creep into the novels and narrative supplements?
Because I do and that is the crux of my complaint. Not what they are called in mechanics but the names that are used in the fluff.
In a shallow grave, hopefully. Elf glut was the absolute worst thing about previous editions of the Realms.
Ah. now this is illuminating.
You claim you don't care about mechanics, but the crux of your complaint points entirely towards you being dissatisfied with them having the same mechanical traits.
No. I can't care about the mechanics. I am not a player of FR. I am a reader of FR. If you asked me what the mechanical differences are I couldn't tell you, even after a week to think about it. I have never used sub-race mechanics nor do I expect to. On that basis how can I use something as the crux of my complaint when I don't even know what it is?
I am going to outline this one last time. After that I am giving up on the point. Never have I been so impressively misunderstood in my life, not even by students.
I don't care that they use the same mechanic. In fact I think it is a good thing. I like that the any differences between the sub-races are purely fluff.
I have seen a trend beginning with the FRCG (and its editors), continuing through interviews and (to a lesser extent) the PG that in a place where an author would have referred to:
"It came as some surprise to the old Moon Elf that his daughter... etc"
will from now on write the following
"It came as some surprise to the old Eladrin that his daughter... etc"
...in a novel or narrative sidebar. This is the marginalisation of sub-race fluff that I have been trying to describe since the beginning of this discussion. has this process started? Certainly. Do I think it will continue until the sub-races organically leave the setting in totality? Yup.
Am I pointing this out now to see if other people feel the same and might want to make a statement to the designers about it before a lasting and irreversible change is made? You Betcha!
This is a pure fluff point. This has nothing to do with mechanics, this is use of language and labels and the fact that I see some disappearing slowly but surely.
the Fluff is there for those who want it, but its not a burden on those who just want to play some D&D.
And for those of us who just read the novels and thus cannot change the fluff to suit ourselves?
-The entire schpiel in RoF concerning Wood Elves being an amalgamation of Wild, Sun and Moon Elves is inherently wrong, and contradicts world continuity, being that Elves breed true, and do not evolve in that manner, and should simply be discounted as canon, as I do.
Then why are wild and wood elves completely separate subraces, when for 15 years of the setting's lifespan (inception to 2001), they were considered the same? If the blending of three lineages couldn't create a new subrace, then why is there a distinction when previously there as none?
Then why are wild and wood elves completely separate subraces, when for 15 years of the setting's lifespan (inception to 2001), they were considered the same? If the blending of three lineages couldn't create a new subrace, then why is there a distinction when previously there as none?
-As I just said, it is an impossibility. Moon Elves breed with Sun Elves, and yield either a Moon Elf, or a Sun Elf, not a Moon-Sun Elf, or a Sun-Moon Elf. Thus, it is impossible for a new subrace to be born of such true unions. Races of Faerûn, for whatever reason (nothing is explained, being a retcon), gives us both Wood Elves and Wild Elves.
In our own world do we talk about "sub-race" relations? Sub-racial tensions? Sub-racial equality.
That's because in D&D we call things "races," when in fact they are "species." African and Caucasian are races. Elf and human are species. We don't talk about subraces in real life, because outside of D&D and games spawned from it, they don't exist.
And it was in that sense that I used the word.
Then you should specify that ahead of time, and not alternate between using race and subrace like you have.
And you think this won't creep into the novels and narrative supplements?
I don't judge things on "what-ifs." I judge them on "what is."
Because I do and that is the crux of my complaint. Not what they are called in mechanics but the names that are used in the fluff.
So, you get yourself worked up over things that could happen, instead of things that have happened?
Ah. now this is illuminating.
Indeed. It illuminates the fact that I hate the "new kind of elf under every rock" mentality that permeated previous editions. The same mentality that, for no reason other than Greyhawk having a distinction, split green elves into wild and wood elves in 3rd Edition.
No. I can't care about the mechanics. I am not a player of FR.
Then why are you basing what could happen (theoretically) on information from a Player's Guide game supplement? Maybe you should base your view on what actually happens in the novels you read.
The PG is a guide for player information, not a bible for the fiction writers.
...in a novel or narrative sidebar.
And do you have any actual proof or examples of this happening in fiction (and not in a game supplement where game terms need to be explicitly used to avoid ambiguity), or is this just "what-if" speculation leading you to get worked up?
-As I just said, it is an impossibility. Moon Elves breed with Sun Elves, and yield either a Moon Elf, or a Sun Elf, not a Moon-Sun Elf, or a Sun-Moon Elf. Thus, it is impossible for a new subrace to be born of such true unions.
But it isn't impossible for a new subrace to be born of magical change, like the drow. If the drow can get a separate subrace because of that, then why can't dark elves get one because of the same exact thing? Like drow, dark elves were magically altered.
I need to dig out my old copy of Cormanthyr to check some things about the elves that lived in Miyiertar, as I remember that having some elven history in it.
Races of Faerûn, for whatever reason (nothing is explained, being a retcon), gives us both Wood Elves and Wild Elves.
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, actually.
but its comes down to fluff vs. mechanics. I love the different cultures, but hated the 10+ sub race rules.
I liked to have fluff matching the crunchs, they make the best RPGS. There are lots of RPGs that concentrate too much on one side or the other and they become almost impossible to use. When you have too few rules to reflect the world you end with less possibilities to use that fluff in the game.
For example, in the new Vampire I had to make a LOT of new rules because 3/4 of the material useful during play wasn't covered by them.
I don't judge things on "what-ifs." I judge them on "what is."
Don't you think the best time to bring a concern about a perceived direction a book might take... is before they publish it rather that after.
This would tie into my "bringing this up before there are irreversible changes" comment.
Indeed. It illuminates the fact that I hate the "new kind of elf under every rock" mentality that permeated previous editions. The same mentality that, for no reason other than Greyhawk having a distinction, split green elves into wild and wood elves in 3rd Edition.
Yep. As I said, illuminating. Why should someone who disliked the profusion of sub-races value their retention? The basis for your arguments makes a lot more sense to me now.
Then why are you basing what could happen (theoretically) on information from a Player's Guide game supplement? Maybe you should base your view on what actually happens in the novels you read.
The PG is a guide for player information, not a bible for the fiction writers.
I do base it on the novels I read, sadly I have yet to get my hands on Swordmage or Blackstaff Tower... and so I was basing it on the information I do have.
And while the FRCG and FRPG are not "a bible for fiction writers" they do outline the basic structure of the setting, something that the writers do have to stick to. And while you might perceive a million miles between editorial decisions in those two volumes and in the upcoming novels. I don't.
And do you have any actual proof or examples of this happening in fiction (and not in a game supplement where game terms need to be explicitly used to avoid ambiguity), or is this just "what-if" speculation leading you to get worked up?
Are you honestly suggesting that there is no way it could have been handled in the supplements without ambiguity? Because I think they could have, and didn't. I think this is a design decision.
First of all I would like to apologise for my lack of clarity, I should have outlined my terms as soon as Mourn brought up the point and it would have saved a great deal of time.
Thanks. It would have cleared up a lot of confusion.
Don't you think the best time to bring a concern about a perceived direction a book might take... is before they publish it rather that after.
In a situation like this? No, because having been involved in the development of creative properties before, I know that by the time the fan sees what's coming down the pipeline, most things are too far along to be changed without losing months (or years) of work.
The FR plan was made years ago, and bringing these things up now will not affect any real change to that plan. You may be able to impact their next plan, but by that time you will probably be even more dissatisfied with their previous plan and it's outcome.
Why should someone who disliked the profusion of sub-races value their retention?
I value the retention of fluff that gives me multiple groups to choose from. It's mechanics for those fluff differences that I don't find as useful.
I do base it on the novels I read, sadly I have yet to get my hands on Swordmage or Blackstaff Tower... and so I was basing it on the information I do have.
Then I'd suggest chilling out and getting a hold of one of the newer novels and see what they say. I believe Swordmage has some elf characters, which should really tell you whether you will see "eladrin" replace "moon elf" and "sun elf" wholesale.
And while the FRCG and FRPG are not "a bible for fiction writers" they do outline the basic structure of the setting, something that the writers do have to stick to. And while you might perceive a million miles between editorial decisions in those two volumes and in the upcoming novels. I don't.
They are all based on the same source (the Setting Bible), but that doesn't mean that the way the PG/CG is written is how novels will be written, because game supplements and novels serve entirely different purposes. For example, Rich Baker points out that statting out all the Swordmage characters wouldn't necessarily work, since the fiction requires certain liberties that go against what the game rules say.
Are you honestly suggesting that there is no way it could have been handled in the supplements without ambiguity? Because I think they could have, and didn't. I think this is a design decision.
I think because of the ingrained view of "elf" from previous editions and the confusion new players could have when they see a bunch of kinds of "elves" described (and nothing about eladrin, which their PHB contains), they really needed to hammer home the distinction between "eladrin" and "elf" in the game materials.
I'd give this a 6/10 myself
I haven't seen a dedicated thread for this (on this board). So, I thought I would start one for the specific purpose of discussing the Lore in the FRPG (and FRCG).
So, comments? Observations? Interesting additions? Ideas?
I haven't finished reading it myself but I will post when I have!
(apologies if this is a duplicate)
But it isn't impossible for a new subrace to be born of magical change, like the drow. If the drow can get a separate subrace because of that, then why can't dark elves get one because of the same exact thing? Like drow, dark elves were magically altered.
I need to dig out my old copy of Cormanthyr to check some things about the elves that lived in Miyiertar, as I remember that having some elven history in it.
-These Dark Elves weren't magically altered. They were Green Elves who were magically altered into Drow. When the alterations that altered them were removed, they reverted back to being normal Green Elves again. The "paint dressing them up" was removed, that's all.
-As I said, I don't like it, but it's mostly secure in it's premise. We've never had stats for Dark Elves, we've never been told that Dark Elves were not a branch of the Green Elven "family"...
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, actually.
-That's right. Races of Faerûn continues the trend.
Yet again, your Ladyship, you know exactly what I was trying to say. Are you sure you aren't camping out in the back of my brain somewhere?
Actually, no, I'm not sure.:P ;)
But it isn't impossible for a new subrace to be born of magical change, like the drow. If the drow can get a separate subrace because of that, then why can't dark elves get one because of the same exact thing? Like drow, dark elves were magically altered.
But the idea is that the "new dark elves" were drow who were altered back to their original race (I use those words loosely, mind you, as the dark elves in question were born drow). The canon stance (for better or for worse) is that drow where originally green elves. The "redeemed" drow were simply changed to green elven form.
The generalist term “Eladrin” is now applicable and should be considered such for canon purposes. ”Although there are marked differences between Eladrin and their cousin races, eladrin have subgroupings of their own that some folk mistake for different races.” --FRPG, page 14.
Under the Ten Important Facts section (page 5), fact #9 says (in part), "These fey folk collectively call themselves eladrin, and many Faerûnian elves have also adopted this name for their lineage, though they have not forgotten their traditional cultural distinctions and names."
As the Player’s Guide stresses, players still have the option to explore cultural differences between the Eladrin when creating and roleplaying their characters, which the Player’s Guide talks about in detail under the Playing an Eladrin in Toril section.
All of this follows the design philosophy laid out in Wizards Presents: Races and Classes. Note that this book lists thirteen different elven subraces featured in 3rd Edition D&D, with the caveat, “...and we probably missed a couple.”
So yeah, many subraces were reduced to just a couple races, with the understanding that differences between the various types of elves are (going forward) to be considered cultural and not physical.
Just got my book yesterday, here’s what I’ve found that’s of interest to me:
Genasi dress themselves to reveal the lines of elemental power that constantly crackle across their bodies. Good for me as a DM to know in the event I use Genasi NPCs in my Realms game.
Dragonborn view the gods of Toril and their servants with suspicion. Drabonborn have always had themselves to answer to and no other, so find it alien that some distant power should guide them or judge them.
Surprisingly, the Dragonborn of Tymanther are for the most part not warlike and instead wish to leave at peace with their neighbors. Something I’ll need to remember when I roleplay Dragonborn NPCs; they’re honorable, not belligerent or aggressive.
The Coronal Guard lives again in myth Drannor. That’s cool. However, the City of Song (Myth Drannor) is not the welcoming place it once was. Only the section of the city known as the Dlabraddath welcomes visitors. The Coronal Guard watches all newcomers with suspicion until they earn some level of trust in Myth Drannor.
The Umbriri are just cool. They are Netherese swordmages who carry on a blended form of martial and magical tradition as old as Shade itself. The artwork for these guys is killer. Not much lore about them beyond their name, but finally I get some info as a DM to run NPC antagonists from Netheril that aren’t just pure wizards/arcane casters.
So yeah, many subraces were reduced to just a couple races, with the understanding that differences between the various types of elves are (going forward) to be considered cultural and not physical.
I hope that these differences will be illustrated in future novels and suppl... DDI articles.
I look forward to seeing if the Lythari and Avariel were retained. The Sea Elves seem to have been, with the passing reference to the in the Sea of Fallen Stars in the FRCG.
However, with the entry of Lycanthropes and Shifters I didn't see any mention of the Lythari in the Good Lycanthropes roundup. Nor was there any mention of Avariel. I do hope these two have been retained.
Any hints in the 4E novels? (I am getting hold of Swordmage and Blackstaff Tower but my copies are taking a while to turn up)
oh..consider my argument refuted.
Heh, I know right?
I just say keep the lore lose the statistics. I remember saying recently that I was not a fan of the elves of Faerun but now that I think of it I do not think that was always so. Years ago I was a big enough fan I just think I got burnt out on them.
Funny thing is now my first FR PC that I want to run is an elf from Elfharrow. The other funny thing is he will be a cleric of Silvanus, a god who I did not really care for. I now see him in a different light. My PC will want to join the Cerullen Sign and wander the land trying to help others from abberations, spellscarred nasties and other things that go against the natural oder of things. An eladrin swordmage woud interest me as well but every group I join is always lacking a cleric, and they are still fun to play in 4E. ;)
Any hints in the 4E novels? (I am getting hold of Swordmage and Blackstaff Tower but my copies are taking a while to turn up)
-Rich Baker did say (or I said it, and I am suffering from delusions of grandeur, and substituting myself for him, either way) that, although they aren't mentioned, the Lythari, they should still be considered out there. Or was it Avariel? But, either way, the point remains the same.
Where was this when I was trying to powergame AD&D? Never owned the setting, but I must admit I never came across any of this playing the game. Not even during quasi-FR campaigns or RPGA Living City.
The original DotU combined with CBoE was a good power gaming combo, add to that the various S&P books and you could have a mighty drow elf indeed!
But the idea is that the "new dark elves" were drow who were altered back to their original race (I use those words loosely, mind you, as the dark elves in question were born drow). The canon stance (for better or for worse) is that drow where originally green elves. The "redeemed" drow were simply changed to green elven form.
That's odd, reading the dark elf entry in the new FRPG leads me to believe they are of eladrin rather than elven descent.
Most notably they are similar in build and appearence to the eladrin and they trance rather than sleep.
That's odd, reading the dark elf entry in the new FRPG leads me to believe they are of eladrin rather than elven descent.
Hmmm, that is odd. Oh well, I never liked the idea of dark elves having been green elves anyway.
That's odd, reading the dark elf entry in the new FRPG leads me to believe they are of eladrin rather than elven descent.
What Dark Elf entry?
thats 4e core.
I could have sworn I saw some of the core mythos being used when I flipped through one of the new FR books. In any case, there's no reason to assume that because certain lore is "core" means it's not being used for the 4E Realms.
-Hmm...If you don't know, that must mean that Merrik does!
unlikely as I don't know what you are referring to
unlikely as I don't know what you are referring to
-Figured it didn't hurt to try.