Reconstituting the Shadow Weave: possible without the Weave? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Reconstituting the Shadow Weave: possible without the Weave?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Mr_Miscellany
Nov 14, 2011 19:33:45 Do you think it's possible to reconstitute the Shadow Weave in the post-Spellplague Realms without also reconstituting the Weave?
#2
Calamity916
Nov 14, 2011 20:26:41 I would say no, if only because I think it would be more funny for Shar to durp the Weave back into existance just like she durped the Shadow Weave out of existance. All with PC help of course.
#3
sfdragon
Nov 14, 2011 22:34:54 I would say no.

the sahdow weave and the weave were both one in the same.

to destroy one is to destroy the other.

to reconsititue one is to do the same to the other.

this is a lost secret that is even lost t o Shar in all her darkness even loses things.

this happened once when selune tore apart of her own divinity and hurled it at Shar ripping out the dark magic from her and creating Mystryl.

and even if it was to be reconstructed, there is no telling how strong or weak it would be.

Mystra was the weave and the weave WAS magic....
#4
sfdragon
Nov 14, 2011 23:17:47 I's like to add to my post above, but....

Should Shar manage to trick any PC to aid in reconstructing the shadow weave and thus the weave too, she would NOt be able to covern the entire weave.

and it would be the same reason that Mystra 2.0 was not able to .
Midnight/mystra was good aligned and was denied the shadow weave portions and Shar is evil, she would be denied the light weave portions.
Mystryl and Mystra 1.0 were both nuetral and would have had access to both parts.
#5
Mr_Miscellany
Nov 15, 2011 10:37:27 Hrm…I look at it all as past tense. That is, what the Weave was doesn’t mean it must be the same thing again if it’s reformed.

Also, I see the Weave as a consolidation of power over magic; sort of like creating a source code to control an otherwise unruly source of power.

Magic as it exists now in the Realms still allows for fireballs, magic missiles and whatnot, but to really achieve fine control over it you need something that unifies magic and guides it on a subtle, but global scale.

I guess I see the potential for a new Weave to come into existence as time goes by in the Realms and magic users of all types reach for greater and greater power (thus creating and casting more powerful spells). This future-ish Weave is worth fighting for and the ground rules aren’t going to be the same because for the Weave to form, somebody (or something) has to write them.
#6
eriksdb
Nov 15, 2011 12:06:51 Well, metaphorically and literally speaking, Shar "rebuilding the Shadow Weave" is essentially about Shar trying to take control of all Shadow magic.

(Note: Yes, I'm an author and designer, but I'm not an actual WotC employee and this is NOT canonical. This is just how I see it in my own games.)

Before 1385, she had at least some control over all shadow magic practiced in the Realms (with small exceptions in the form of hypothetical practitioners who used Shadow magic that did not access the Shadow Weave). In 1385, she got what she wanted (the death of Mystra) but an unexpected consequence also collapsed part of HER power source, the Shadow Weave. It is entirely likely that Shar would be trying to re-establish control over shadow magic, if not all magic.

So she has the MOTIVE to do it. The question is whether she has the ABILITY to do it.

To put it in modern terms, Mystra's control of the Weave was like the Magic Company slapping company controls on the system of magic, with all its raw power. The collapse of the Weave was this big moment where the Magic Company collapsed and everything became open all at once, largely uncontrolled because the Magic Company was the only one that could do it. Shar's Shadow Company also collapsed, because even though she had planned to seize control over her rival company, they were so economically/magically entwined that it was a domino effect that toppled both.

After that, Shar tried to pick up the pieces, but all of a sudden mere mortals were able to use magic WITHOUT a divine middleman, and they had no more need/use for her. So the shadowy Financial Manager was suddenly out of a job (and no divine bail-out in sight).

(In a way, Shar's plots contributed to a great freeing process for mages the Realms over. How ironic!)

As I see it, this is pretty much the punishment Ao levelled on Shar: Even though she killed Mystra (with Cyric as her weapon), Shar was NOT allowed to take Mystra's portfolio. AO decreed that no god would be the god of magic (at least for now), then retreated to watch. And wait.

So Shar is left with trying to figure out how to regain her power. I see no reason she can't rebuild a "Weave" of sorts, because that just means a shadow magic user is drawing on some of her power. The problem is that the infrastructure (the global weave) collapsed, so it's not "the way magic is done" anymore. Before, all mages had only two choices: the Weave or the Shadow Weave. Now they can use magic without any sort of divine intercession, and who would want to choose Shar over that? Shar will have to rebuild her power base gradually, one-by-one.

Her *new* "Shadow Weave" is really just a network of arcanists who draw their shadow powers through her, allowing her a little bit of control over it.

In your own campaign, Shar may have been working on this for the last century, and her progress may be low or high. She does have some major power bases (Netheril, for instance), but her new Shadow Weave isn't nearly as widespread as before.

Cheers
#7
Stigger
Nov 15, 2011 15:43:10 My own view on the matter is sorta, maybe. My own interpretation of the Weave and its shadowy twin (which I tend to ignore to be honest, but that's besides the point) is that its still there, its still more or less unharmed, its just not being managed by Mystra, or anyone else. That largely springs from an interpretation of magic as it being a natural, and necessary part of the world, and hence, its always there, even if mortals have a hard time working with it without that divine interface to act like a surge protector of sorts. Certainly it can be tapped without it, but its not as easy per se (But then, I still maintain that magic was actually more powerful under Mystra's stewardship than it is currently).

Going by that point of view, if you view the Shadow Weave as an exploit of the Weave's structure, then no, it can't be revived without reviving the Weave. If you view it as simply a dark version of the Weave, then I suppose it is possible. Given the way they were supposed to interact though, I'd tend towards the exploit explanation rather than the seperate version explanation.

I'm not really sure how I feel about the divine middleman notion that Eric brought up... on one hand, it is fairly logical and certainly possible given the vagueness surrounding the nature of the Weave with the advent of 4e. My own preference, which one is certainly free to ignore, is that the Weave was the default state of magic with the ascension of Mystra, and you don't really have a choice per se if you want to cast spells, unless you cast divine spells, or use some Sharran ritual to alter the way your body interacts with magic. That view is spawned from the notion that whether you choose to acknowledge the gods or not, they're still there and they still have influence, even if you choose to ignore that influence.
#8
Calamity916
Nov 15, 2011 20:25:10
There are a lot of good answers here; I feel a bit embarrassed by my flippant one. So I'll add my two cents to the idea.

I've always seen Mystra as having a dual role in the Weave due to her divine nature.

While she is the interface to interact with it, she is also the code writer, a code that is so complex that Shar and Selune both would have been required to create and manage it back in the day.

Therefore because of their falling out and subsequent battles, the parts of them that allowed them to collaborate and create were torn out of them and became the being known as Mystril and later Mystra.

That would mean under my interpretation Shar is actually incapable of creating anything which in turn means that she cannot act as the new Mystra, as she is only capable of being the interface, not writing the code.

This leaves the Shadow Weave itself as a "me too" power grab (she comes off as exceptionally petty to me) and relied on reverse engineered Weave code, something she stole and twisted for her own purposes.

However, it seems to me that she would do pretty much anything to win, so I see no reason why she might not try to set up a proxy or group of proxies, someone or someones capable of taking over the role but also absolutely loyal to her. I could see a PC or group of PCs being a good candidate for that role.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Mr_Miscellany Nov 14, 2011 19:33:45	Do you think it's possible to reconstitute the Shadow Weave in the post-Spellplague Realms without also reconstituting the Weave?
#2 Calamity916 Nov 14, 2011 20:26:41	I would say no, if only because I think it would be more funny for Shar to durp the Weave back into existance just like she durped the Shadow Weave out of existance. All with PC help of course.
#3 sfdragon Nov 14, 2011 22:34:54	I would say no. the sahdow weave and the weave were both one in the same. to destroy one is to destroy the other. to reconsititue one is to do the same to the other. this is a lost secret that is even lost t o Shar in all her darkness even loses things. this happened once when selune tore apart of her own divinity and hurled it at Shar ripping out the dark magic from her and creating Mystryl. and even if it was to be reconstructed, there is no telling how strong or weak it would be. Mystra was the weave and the weave WAS magic....
#4 sfdragon Nov 14, 2011 23:17:47	I's like to add to my post above, but.... Should Shar manage to trick any PC to aid in reconstructing the shadow weave and thus the weave too, she would NOt be able to covern the entire weave. and it would be the same reason that Mystra 2.0 was not able to . Midnight/mystra was good aligned and was denied the shadow weave portions and Shar is evil, she would be denied the light weave portions. Mystryl and Mystra 1.0 were both nuetral and would have had access to both parts.
#5 Mr_Miscellany Nov 15, 2011 10:37:27	Hrm…I look at it all as past tense. That is, what the Weave was doesn’t mean it must be the same thing again if it’s reformed. Also, I see the Weave as a consolidation of power over magic; sort of like creating a source code to control an otherwise unruly source of power. Magic as it exists now in the Realms still allows for fireballs, magic missiles and whatnot, but to really achieve fine control over it you need something that unifies magic and guides it on a subtle, but global scale. I guess I see the potential for a new Weave to come into existence as time goes by in the Realms and magic users of all types reach for greater and greater power (thus creating and casting more powerful spells). This future-ish Weave is worth fighting for and the ground rules aren’t going to be the same because for the Weave to form, somebody (or something) has to write them.
#6 eriksdb Nov 15, 2011 12:06:51	Well, metaphorically and literally speaking, Shar "rebuilding the Shadow Weave" is essentially about Shar trying to take control of all Shadow magic. (Note: Yes, I'm an author and designer, but I'm not an actual WotC employee and this is NOT canonical. This is just how I see it in my own games.) Before 1385, she had at least some control over all shadow magic practiced in the Realms (with small exceptions in the form of hypothetical practitioners who used Shadow magic that did not access the Shadow Weave). In 1385, she got what she wanted (the death of Mystra) but an unexpected consequence also collapsed part of HER power source, the Shadow Weave. It is entirely likely that Shar would be trying to re-establish control over shadow magic, if not all magic. So she has the MOTIVE to do it. The question is whether she has the ABILITY to do it. To put it in modern terms, Mystra's control of the Weave was like the Magic Company slapping company controls on the system of magic, with all its raw power. The collapse of the Weave was this big moment where the Magic Company collapsed and everything became open all at once, largely uncontrolled because the Magic Company was the only one that could do it. Shar's Shadow Company also collapsed, because even though she had planned to seize control over her rival company, they were so economically/magically entwined that it was a domino effect that toppled both. After that, Shar tried to pick up the pieces, but all of a sudden mere mortals were able to use magic WITHOUT a divine middleman, and they had no more need/use for her. So the shadowy Financial Manager was suddenly out of a job (and no divine bail-out in sight). (In a way, Shar's plots contributed to a great freeing process for mages the Realms over. How ironic!) As I see it, this is pretty much the punishment Ao levelled on Shar: Even though she killed Mystra (with Cyric as her weapon), Shar was NOT allowed to take Mystra's portfolio. AO decreed that no god would be the god of magic (at least for now), then retreated to watch. And wait. So Shar is left with trying to figure out how to regain her power. I see no reason she can't rebuild a "Weave" of sorts, because that just means a shadow magic user is drawing on some of her power. The problem is that the infrastructure (the global weave) collapsed, so it's not "the way magic is done" anymore. Before, all mages had only two choices: the Weave or the Shadow Weave. Now they can use magic without any sort of divine intercession, and who would want to choose Shar over that? Shar will have to rebuild her power base gradually, one-by-one. Her new "Shadow Weave" is really just a network of arcanists who draw their shadow powers through her, allowing her a little bit of control over it. In your own campaign, Shar may have been working on this for the last century, and her progress may be low or high. She does have some major power bases (Netheril, for instance), but her new Shadow Weave isn't nearly as widespread as before. Cheers
#7 Stigger Nov 15, 2011 15:43:10	My own view on the matter is sorta, maybe. My own interpretation of the Weave and its shadowy twin (which I tend to ignore to be honest, but that's besides the point) is that its still there, its still more or less unharmed, its just not being managed by Mystra, or anyone else. That largely springs from an interpretation of magic as it being a natural, and necessary part of the world, and hence, its always there, even if mortals have a hard time working with it without that divine interface to act like a surge protector of sorts. Certainly it can be tapped without it, but its not as easy per se (But then, I still maintain that magic was actually more powerful under Mystra's stewardship than it is currently). Going by that point of view, if you view the Shadow Weave as an exploit of the Weave's structure, then no, it can't be revived without reviving the Weave. If you view it as simply a dark version of the Weave, then I suppose it is possible. Given the way they were supposed to interact though, I'd tend towards the exploit explanation rather than the seperate version explanation. I'm not really sure how I feel about the divine middleman notion that Eric brought up... on one hand, it is fairly logical and certainly possible given the vagueness surrounding the nature of the Weave with the advent of 4e. My own preference, which one is certainly free to ignore, is that the Weave was the default state of magic with the ascension of Mystra, and you don't really have a choice per se if you want to cast spells, unless you cast divine spells, or use some Sharran ritual to alter the way your body interacts with magic. That view is spawned from the notion that whether you choose to acknowledge the gods or not, they're still there and they still have influence, even if you choose to ignore that influence.
#8 Calamity916 Nov 15, 2011 20:25:10	There are a lot of good answers here; I feel a bit embarrassed by my flippant one. So I'll add my two cents to the idea. I've always seen Mystra as having a dual role in the Weave due to her divine nature. While she is the interface to interact with it, she is also the code writer, a code that is so complex that Shar and Selune both would have been required to create and manage it back in the day. Therefore because of their falling out and subsequent battles, the parts of them that allowed them to collaborate and create were torn out of them and became the being known as Mystril and later Mystra. That would mean under my interpretation Shar is actually incapable of creating anything which in turn means that she cannot act as the new Mystra, as she is only capable of being the interface, not writing the code. This leaves the Shadow Weave itself as a "me too" power grab (she comes off as exceptionally petty to me) and relied on reverse engineered Weave code, something she stole and twisted for her own purposes. However, it seems to me that she would do pretty much anything to win, so I see no reason why she might not try to set up a proxy or group of proxies, someone or someones capable of taking over the role but also absolutely loyal to her. I could see a PC or group of PCs being a good candidate for that role.