First of all before I projectile vomit my reactions to the death of . . . someone dear to me, I would like to ask for someone, anyone, to direct me to a more appropriate venue for those demanding answers, justification or blood as the case may pend. If you can help me out with that feel free to ignore the rest of this post.
*spoiler/rant alert*
To: the architects of Faerun's decline in popularity,
Re: Dead goddess
Let me set the tone of my displeasure as best I can by quoting tom cruise: "First, take a big step back and literally, FK YOUR OWN FACE."
Eilistraee problematic to the setting? How dare you. Your arrogance is nearly as sickening to me as your ignorance. It is difficult to imagine an act of arrogance more brazen then haphazardly killing major deities crucial to the setting for an arbitrary reason. I cannot imagine something more ignorant than to think that doing so is a good idea.
Justifying the butchering of the forgotten realms setting for the sake of simplicity is insane. Who benefits from the simplicity I ask you? The only people who truly care about the forgotten realms enough to be interested in actually rping there are positively MURDEROUS WITH NERD RAGE. you want to make the entire 4th edition apocryphal texts to a well established fan base? This is how you do it.
Who exactly did you have in mind when the decision to axe Eilistraee was made? Obviously not people who liked Eilistraee. What would you say to them I wonder?
I cannot stress enough how betrayed many others like me feel because of changes like this to the setting. completely unnecessary and hurtful. Who would want to play in this depressing setting?
*end spoiler/rant*
There, that was therapeutic. I still hold out hope that somehow I've missed something because this just does not make sense.
If all else fails I suppose anyone still interested in the setting can build a campaign around undoing the damage whoever came up with this tripe did. A pity it would be a hollow experience likely only to affirm bitterness.
Oh, one last thing. My knowledge on any good happenings in 4th edition for the forgotten realms is non-existent. I would happily read anything of the sort.
Second, realism doesn't enter into it, it's fantasy. I think you might want to choose a different word there.
Didn't have a massive fan base? Uh, define massive. I guarantee you she was more popular than, say, Corellon Larethion. Hell, I doubt many people even know how to pronounce his name right.
As for the dedication of her fans, that I do agree with. Her flavor and her redemption theme resonated well with people. She was the only drow deity other than Lolth of any real significance to the setting.
I'm sorry what doesn't matter much? I think you mean to say that you liked her better as the Vhaeraun/Eilistraee Amalgam they made for the sake of convenience. If that's what you meant then yes that particular character is exceedingly irrelevant.
Let me set the tone of my displeasure as best I can by quoting tom cruise: "First, take a big step back and literally, FK YOUR OWN FACE."
Great quote!:D
I too was surprised when WotC decided to axe Eilistraee. Not only did I like her, but I also thought she was fairly popular and fans weren't exactly crying out for her death.
Second, realism doesn't enter into it, it's fantasy. I think you might want to choose a different word there.
-Uh huh...
-Of course realism is a part of fantasy. Just because it is 'fantasy' doesn't mean that it doesn't follow it's own internal rules and conditions that govern continuity. Gravity doesn't randomly turn on and off. There's realism for you. When people get hacked with swords, they get hurt. There's realism for you.
-Eilistraee was not realistic. Her defined purpose and goal was to redeem Drow from the 'taint of Lolth. In doing so, her church was set up to ostracize 50% of all of the Drow who she could have possibly 'saved' from Lolth. In a structure in which males (50% of the possible Drow population ) are put in positions of unimportance, or in positions of less power, in which the deity allows this/does nothing about it, that's unrealistic. Vhaeraun had the same problem, though he made a bit more sense, as he was more of the "males get power, and females get degraded because Lolth does the opposite!", and was evil.
Didn't have a massive fan base? Uh, define massive. I guarantee you she was more popular than, say, Corellon Larethion. Hell, I doubt many people even know how to pronounce his name right.
-No, no she didn't. Like I said, her fanbase, composed of primarily three different types of groups, who like her for three different reasons, is relatively small, but vocal. She is a minor deity in a specific campaign setting. Corellon Larethian is a major deity in various campaign settings, including the 3e and 4e 'generic' worlds. Corellon Larethian has a lot more face time than Eilistraee has, and with his continued existence, whereas Eilistraee does not get this 'perk', his face time will increase as D&D is introduced to more and more people.
I'm sorry what doesn't matter much? I think you mean to say that you liked her better as the Vhaeraun/Eilistraee Amalgam they made for the sake of convenience. If that's what you meant then yes that particular character is exceedingly irrelevant.
-The Masked Lady was killed because WotC was following a specific design philosophy that called for a minimalization of the various deities found in the Forgotten Realms, as this was perceived as a problem. There is a very slim chance, if any, that WotC brings her back, as either the Masked Lady, or Eilistraee. As such, ultimately, it doesn't really matter if we bemoan her loss or not, regardless of how superficial the reason for her removal- or any other deity's- was. It's a So Yeah moment.
My own complaints about the new realms are more to due with my distaste of the Abier nations having replaced the Old Empires and the replacing of the City of Cats to make some nonsensical Shou refugee nation a whole continent away from where they should have been.
I find it interesting that, even though I was never a fan of the Dragonborn to begin with, I think I wouldn't be as adverse to them if it wasn't for some of the changes in the realms. Anyways, pleasant dreams everyone.
I'm sorry if I've had too much sake' already tonight to make any sense however on the idea of gravity turning on and off, isn't it a feature in the 4th edition FR that there are big islands of land flying around the skies in certain areas? Not to mention more deliberately magical flying lands like the flying cities of Netheril and the Abolithic Sovernity? Oh well, I just thought it was interesting that gravity was less than reliable when it was being used as a measure of the realism of the setting.
-Floating castles, kingdoms, islands, and so on, are common fantasy tropes. The Forgotten Realms has lots of floating-type places, be them Cloud Giant kingdoms, Netherese Enclaves, [Insert terrain]motes (those are the new 4e things), and so on.
Anyway, I liked her. But as I said elsewhere, needlessly getting rid of interesting and unique deities in a half baked way is the modus operandi of the 4th Edition 'Realms'. Which is just one reason why I think the 4th Edition 'Realms' is worse then the World of Synnibarr.
Eilistraee problematic to the setting? How dare you. Your arrogance is nearly as sickening to me as your ignorance. It is difficult to imagine an act of arrogance more brazen then haphazardly killing major deities crucial to the setting for an arbitrary reason. I cannot imagine something more ignorant than to think that doing so is a good idea.
I'm trying to find this "major deity crucial to the setting" in the original boxed set, but struggling. Perhaps you'd like to tell me where it appears. Unless this importance is actually a figment of your imagination.
Out of curiosity, Uzzy, have you ever read World of Synnibarr or are you just throwing it out randomly. There's worse comaprisons you could make.
Out of curiosity, Uzzy, have you ever read World of Synnibarr or are you just throwing it out randomly. There's worse comaprisons you could make.
Exactly. It's really mean to use Synnibarr in that comparison. I mean, I paid money for a copy of Synnibarr, but I wouldn't bother accepting a copy of the 4e FRCG if it was given to me for free.
I mean, I paid money for a copy of Synnibarr, but I wouldn't bother accepting a copy of the 4e FRCG if it was given to me for free.
-That's what I did. I wouldn't pay money for that, but free is free, and in the very least, information is information.
And yes, I have read it. *shudder*
More popular than Corellon Larethian :heehee A deity around since AD&D 1e (80's?) versus a minor bit player who appeared sometime during the 90's (late?).
I've had more clerics and followers of Corellon than I can shake a Chromatic Dragon at.
People are funny sometimes opinion becomes fact becomes legend :D
I agree that as the Masked Lady she was more interesting, and more realistic to the goals by not excluding males from the priesthood and true redemption. After all what reason would a male drow have to follow Elistraee since he'd be relegated to the same 'lesser' status as he would under Lolth. Just because the priestesses of Elistraee were nicer than priestesses of Lolth about how they said things the base effect was the same: men were lesser and unimportant.
The goal of 4e (not just in FR) seems to be a unified pantheon per campaign world and removing 'redundant' dieties for specific races. Also notice that in 4e's default setting cities often aren't tied to just one race and the races tend to mix a lot more than in previous editions.
In FR because of all the subpantheons they've had to do a mix of killing off and 'revelations' to trim the pantheon back to a core. So what we find is that many racial dieties were just core dieties in disguise to be a 'friendlier face' to a particular race.
Having read the books and with 4e cosmology we could see a return of the Masked Lady but she'll still be a minor player, an exarch of Corellon since he 'saved' her followers and possibly a remnant of her essence assuming the Cresent Blade didn't totally obliterate it.
As it stands the core of the drow are back to a single diety: Lolth, while they will still have reneages (mostly males) who will worship other dieties, just not ones reserved only for drow. Even Lolth isn't a strictly drow diety anymore.
I've had
Moon Elven fighter/ COCL of corellon
Moon Elven ranger of sehanine moonbow
drow swashbuckler of shaundakul patron /selunepatron in 4e/Eilistraee
Sun elf wizard/frost mage/ high mage of corellon
sun elf diviner/loremaster/high mage of corellon
Wild elf rogue/master infiltrator of Erevan
Wood Elf druid of Rilifane/ Silvanus( you know out of all the combining of the gods in 4e, this is the only one I can buy into)
drow bard of waukeen
so of all my Elven characters, only one paid homage to Eilistraee.
Well at least she got to die doing something good, redeeming a bunch of drow and turning them back into dark elves. If they hadn't done that we'd just have found out that she was really just an aspect of Selune and be gone anway without having accomplished anything.
Too bad the drow she "redeemed" where apparently the ones who needed it the least--drow who already followed her, and those who didn't have a demonic taint in them!
As to the actual size of her fanbase, how the hells would any of us have even the slightest clue as to what the size or composition of it actually is? How do any of us know if its relatively small or particularly vocal from anything other than observation or anecdotal evidence, neither of which are particularly compelling to begin with? Simple answer is we don't... so refuting claims of dubious quality with claims of equal, if calmer, dubiousness is hardly helpful. The OP was/is upset, let them be, and leave it at that.
Yeah, redeeming a bunch of already Good Drow seems a little odd. Especially as it implies that redemption can only come via a god, rather then anyone's own actions.
Yes, I get POed by that particular concept as well, especially in a setting like the Realms.
I thought it added a lot having two children whose parents were at each other's throats: Lolth and Corellon.
Even if Eilistrae was not a great power and regardless of the actual size of her real world fanbase, I like those types of interconnected plots within pantheons. Personally, I believe it adds a little more texture than the 'I oppose you because I am for good and you are for tyranny' crap.
But, that is just my opinion.
You don't like it, poof Ellie back into existence.
Oh, BAAAAAAAW. Wah wah wah, here's a tissue.
You don't like it, poof Ellie back into existence.
Your tact towards new posters is much appreciated.
That trilogy was poorly-written anyway.
-In regards to the "lore" part, yes indeed. The technical writing stuff, I don't know. I know, it wasn't a boor fest, that much is true.
-In regards to the "lore" part, yes indeed. The technical writing stuff, I don't know. I know, it wasn't a boor fest, that much is true.
I'd say the last book was somewhat mediocre and the rest were just bad. The problem is not with the narration per se, but rather has much to do with the choice of events and causalities:
- Erasing Kiaransalee's name
- Killing off deities with the most stupid of methods (Selvetarm's okay, but the other 3 were illogical)
- Spending too much time on other characters while leaving the main character (The Lady Penitent) mostly on the sidelines
If I am to give a one-sentence description of the trilogy, it'd be:
It's a series about a bunch of drow priestesses going back and forth killing evil stuff until their goddess got killed.
... and that pretty much sums things up.
His ludicrous claims of Corellon being less popular aside I sympathise with the OP, I liked Eilistraee and in all honest would probably just keep her if I run a FR game.
Last minute thought I do like how Douglas Niles handled the gods in the Moonshae Isles Trilogy (both), they acted through events and their mortal/semi-divine servants. They didn't strap one on and come out guns blazing personally.
... and that pretty much sums things up.
-Which is pretty much what I said.
-Of course realism is a part of fantasy. Just because it is 'fantasy' doesn't mean that it doesn't follow it's own internal rules and conditions that govern continuity. Gravity doesn't randomly turn on and off. There's realism for you. When people get hacked with swords, they get hurt. There's realism for you.
'Realism' the term really doesnt have a place when discussing fantasy. Why? Because I can name off....well just about EVERYTHING in fantasy that isnt realistic. What you are describing is natural law which is not what the poster was trying to deny.
What you are both talking about actually is plausible believability. Someone explains how their universe works, sets down the guidelines and lets you run with those givens.
That being said, I think you are both right about some things lacking plausible believability.
-Eilistraee was not realistic. Her defined purpose and goal was to redeem Drow from the 'taint of Lolth. In doing so, her church was set up to ostracize 50% of all of the Drow who she could have possibly 'saved' from Lolth. In a structure in which males (50% of the possible Drow population ) are put in positions of unimportance, or in positions of less power, in which the deity allows this/does nothing about it, that's unrealistic. Vhaeraun had the same problem, though he made a bit more sense, as he was more of the "males get power, and females get degraded because Lolth does the opposite!", and was evil.
And here I have to agree with Lord Karsus. If someone is trying to show the drow a better and good way to have society work, you dont exclude the male gender because they are...well, male. Lolth does that. No male in his right mind would go for what Eilistraee would propose after being stepped on by Lolth and her priestesses. They would see it as more of the same thing: sexism, no matter how nice you try to make it. Sexism is sexism.
This is coming from a big Eilistraee fan too. But even I have to admit, this is not plausibly believable.
On a side note: I've played more Eilistraeen followers in my games as has most of my fellow players. None of us played anything of Corellon.
Why make this statement? Because anecdotes as part of evidence that Eilistraee or Corellon has more people following/playing them is no evidence at all.
Elistraee has a wesbite devoted to her with quite a few people on it. Last I looked, Corellon does not.
Though not entirely conclusive, we can try to judge things based on the evidence we have at hand. The website certainly is telling in some fashion. It is a place we can look, and count the number of people playing followers of Eilistraee.
Corellon has no such numbers to judge.
Ellistrae survives as an exarch of another god or goddess.
Ellistrae survives, but barely, her essence trapped in one of her clerics.
And, as far as the rest of it, only allowing female priests, etc
Change it. The FR doesn't belong to WotC, or any authors. It belongs to you. It's your story. You tell it your way.
And here I have to agree with Lord Karsus. If someone is trying to show the drow a better and good way to have society work, you dont exclude the male gender because they are...well, male. Lolth does that. No male in his right mind would go for what Eilistraee would propose after being stepped on by Lolth and her priestesses. They would see it as more of the same thing: sexism, no matter how nice you try to make it. Sexism is sexism.
This is coming from a big Eilistraee fan too. But even I have to admit, this is not plausibly believable.
On a side note: I've played more Eilistraeen followers in my games as has most of my fellow players. None of us played anything of Corellon.
Why make this statement? Because anecdotes as part of evidence that Eilistraee or Corellon has more people following/playing them is no evidence at all.
Elistraee has a wesbite devoted to her with quite a few people on it. Last I looked, Corellon does not.
Though not entirely conclusive, we can try to judge things based on the evidence we have at hand. The website certainly is telling in some fashion. It is a place we can look, and count the number of people playing followers of Eilistraee.
Corellon has no such numbers to judge.
This is why I don't like Eilistraee at all. She has no logical reason to be sexist like she is, but is anyway. If I'm a male drow who doesn't like Lolth and I'm in a position where I've actually heard about other drow gods? Forget her, I'll go join Vhaeraun's church if I'm still evil or if I'm neutral. If I'm good, somehow? Forget her yet again, I'm good, I count as an elf, don't I? Heck on more of the same matriarchal stuff, I'm going to go worship Corellon.
Vhaeraun does some of the same sexism, but since he's evil and his followers also tend to be evil, it doesn't bother me nearly as much as the supposedly-good moonlight-and-love-and-sugar-cookies Eels and her 'eww males icky' thing. And Vhaeraun at least has his traitor priestesses.
And as for the website issue, considering how much 'Corellon sucks and is a jerk' bashing on Him I see, a website devoted to Him would likely just be inundated by the same people who dump on Him elsewhere, including the aforementioned website devoted to Eilistraee. *insert some IC rambling about the followers of the Protector worshipping him in their own ways and not needing a website for it here if you like* I've considered starting one myself, but yeah, since all I hear on the internet is 'Corellon sucks', why bother? Wouldn't be surprised if anyone else with the same idea thought the same :P
Counter-counter useless anecdote, most of my characters have worshipped Corellon, one's worshipped Vhaeraun, none have worshipped Eilistraee, and two of the PCs in the campaign I'm currently running are followers of Corellon. (To be fair, I'm not running FR, but rather homebrew with 3.5 Core gods, but I am allowing outside gods if the players want - There's a follower of Angharradh in the party and one PC that will be joining late worships Vhaeraun.)
Frankly I'd rather she's gone and the good drow that arise just find their way back to Corellon and the Seldarine where they belong. :P
Now getting rid of Vhaeraun, that does annoy me. :<
and while its true you can homebrew your game to what you want. it helps when canon isn't flipping you the bird.
technically i only found that most clerics are female, but didn't mention favored souls or divine prestiges... or even rangers. im sure the rule could have been bent there?
-Eilistraee was not realistic. Her defined purpose and goal was to redeem Drow from the 'taint of Lolth. In doing so, her church was set up to ostracize 50% of all of the Drow who she could have possibly 'saved' from Lolth. In a structure in which males (50% of the possible Drow population ) are put in positions of unimportance, or in positions of less power, in which the deity allows this/does nothing about it, that's unrealistic. Vhaeraun had the same problem, though he made a bit more sense, as he was more of the "males get power, and females get degraded because Lolth does the opposite!", and was evil.
The charge of unrealistic here is, oddly enough, quite wrong, for the following reasons. Firstly, several major real world religions try to redeem all people on Earth, yet deny women major positions within their church. Secondly, Male clerics of Eilistraee are allowed, as shown in a post by Ed Greenwood, and Lords of Darkness of all things.
The women on top thing is mainly a societal hangover. The overwhelming majority of Drow would be used to the matriarchal, feminist society. The difference for men in Lolthian and Eilistraeen societies is that in Eilistraeen societies they don't get treat like property. Sure, they can't enter positions of power in the Eilistraeen Church, but it's better then being stuck with Lolthian clerics!
See, this is exactly what turns me off about the whole thing with her and the arguements people make regarding her churches. It's not OK because it's better than the alternative. Discrimination is discrimination, whatever the reason or source and whoever it's used against. The arguments don't work in the real world, and don't work in the fake world either.
Don't even get me started on that thing with her having a few male priests and the nature of how that comes about.
For some of us, her demise is a very good thing, as it removes a massively offensive element.
one more thing i forgot, while clerics of eilistrae were supposed to be female, i don't think that excluded males who worshipped her for the sake of finding truth in divinity.
Males are allowed to be followers of Eilistraee, and it's also possible for them to be clerics as per Ed Greenwood (also, F&P doesn't say males can't be clerics).
Don't even get me started on that thing with her having a few male priests and the nature of how that comes about.
Because it doesn't quite fit with the strawman description you created for this goddess?
You don't have to like her, but that doesn't mean what you're saying about her is accurate.
So it's perfectly OK for the degraded members of a society to continue to be degraded by those in a position of privilege, as long as 'they're better off than if...'?
Precisely how are males in an Eilistraeen society degraded?
Because I can name off....well just about EVERYTHING in fantasy that isnt realistic.
-Humans have two arms, and two legs. That's pretty realistic if you ask me. I mean, unless I am some kind of wacky aberration, I have two arms and two legs. :P
Change it. The FR doesn't belong to WotC, or any authors. It belongs to you. It's your story. You tell it your way.
-The Forgotten Realms belong to Wizards of the Coast. Discussion about the Forgotten Realms in a manner that we can all understand and be on the same page for- the canon Forgotten Realms, as dictated by Wizards of the Coast- is written and determined by Wizards of the Coast.
Firstly, several major real world religions try to redeem all people on Earth, yet deny women major positions within their church.
-There is a major difference between real world religions- in which no empirical proof exists that "a higher power" exists, whatever that is to each individual religion- doing whatever their secular leaders dictate, and a religion in this particular setting, in which we know that deities are quite real, and that, ultimately, the structure and tenets of the church are coming directly from the deity him/her/itself, to be executed by his/her/its mortal followers. Eilistraee is perfectly capable of reforming her church, to be one that seems more welcoming and appealing to male Drow. And, yet, she does not. Or, rather, did not. It was only until she merged with Vhaeraun that the two semi-exclusive Drow deities lost their exclusiveness and became a cohesive thing.
Secondly, Male clerics of Eilistraee are allowed, as shown in a post by Ed Greenwood, and Lords of Darkness of all things. The women on top thing is mainly a societal hangover. The overwhelming majority of Drow would be used to the matriarchal, feminist society. The difference for men in Lolthian and Eilistraeen societies is that in Eilistraeen societies they don't get treat like property. Sure, they can't enter positions of power in the Eilistraeen Church, but it's better then being stuck with Lolthian clerics!
-Which makes no difference. By virtue of Eilistraeean society placing males on the bottom rung of the hierarchy, male Drow are being 'pushed away', in which Eilistraee is not doing a very good job in her goal of saving all Drow. A Drow male escapes from the Underdark, and is presented with two images: A church (Eilistraee) in which women primarily rule, and men who wish to attain that kind of political power must become women themselves, for a time, and a church (Vhaeraun) in which men rule. Having been subjugated and dominated by women his entire life, why is he going to choose the former church, despite that church being wholly dedicated to good? He isn't. And, since he isn't, because of the prejudices that exist within the church of Eilistraee, the goddess is doing a poor job in her quest to save all Drow from Lolth. As I already mentioned, Eilistraee, with a proverbial snap, can contact her clergy, and reform things to be more appealing to all Drow. She hasn't, however. To continue with the goal to save all Drow from Lolth, but have a church structure that inherently pushes others away is conflicting, and as such, illogical.
Males are allowed to be followers of Eilistraee, and it's also possible for them to be clerics as per Ed Greenwood (also, F&P doesn't say males can't be clerics).
-Demihuman Deities uses the 'Maids', 'Priestess', 'Maidens', and so on; the "female form" of various words (I don't even know what the proper term would be). In English, as well as Spanish that I know of, and probably a lot of others, the "female form" is used only when denoting women, without the inclusion of any men. When a man is added in, the "male form" is then used. For example, when addressing a group of girls, it's perfectly fine to say, "Hey, girls." When even a single guy is added into that group, "Hey, girls" is no longer appropriate. It becomes "Hey, guys". Demihuman Deities only takes into account the females.
Ed has said males can be clerics of Eilistraee. His word is to be taken as canon, so as far as I'm concerned, that settles it.
We can debate whether or not it's "fair" that males have to spend some time as a female to become a cleric, but that doesn't change the fact that they can be clerics, and it's inaccurate to say or imply that they can't.
A church (Eilistraee) in which women primarily rule, and men who wish to attain that kind of political power must become women themselves, for a time, and a church (Vhaeraun) in which men rule. Having been subjugated and dominated by women his entire life, why is he going to choose the former church, despite that church being wholly dedicated to good? He isn't.
I think you're making the assumption that the Eilistraeen Church and clergy takes on an authoritarian role in the lives of its lay members, but nothing I've read on the church suggests that is the case. It that sense, this Church is not equivalent to Lolth's. And while I don't doubt that the clergy gender issue would be off-putting to some, the vast majority of followers of any god are lay followers anyway (that is, most people don't aspire to gain political power through the church as a member of the priesthood, or care about the mysteries surrounding it).
They even state that in Elistraee's ONLY temple the males (lay or otherwise) aren't allowed in the main worship room and aren't allowed to sing and dance to the goddess. This relegates them to a second-class status. This isn't even a drow-exclusive status either as non-drow females can become priestesses.
Even in the redemption ceremony you see differences. Males get a mark and make an oath while females, especially if becoming a priestess get a special communion with Elistraee.
Under the game rules of course a male could become a cleric class and get powers from Elistraee but in the published lore they wouldn't be considered a priest and would not be allowed into the 'inner circle' of Elistraee's worship. In the novels at least Elistraee seems very focused on 'maidens of the dance' as her clergy and with the small size of her followings that means that the females hold all the social and political power.
They even show this in the novels after she became the Masked Lady with many of the females (even ones raised in Elistraee's church rather than being redeemed from Lolth) resistant and hostile to the new male priests and the scandal of them joining in with the song and dance worship.
In the novels at least Elistraee seems very focused on 'maidens of the dance' as her clergy and with the small size of her followings that means that the females hold all the social and political power.
Again, though, this isn't supposed to be an authoritarian religion, at least not to the point where one can definitively state that "females hold all the social and political power" (in which group?). That's certainly not part of her dogma, and it's possible to worship Eilistraee without taking any instruction or guidance from her clergy. Finally, this is a very scattered and localized religion, and you likely wouldn't see the same exact social patterns among every circle of followers.
The novels don't show you everything.
The women are generally the ones who have the experience and training to run things, and they're the ones in charge. Obviously the men are going to have to be taught how this stuff works, and until they know what they're doing, they're on the bottom rung of society. While I don't think its ever been portrayed as such, given Eilistraee's preference for above ground/shallow settlements, the Promenade always struck me as something of a halfway house where goodly drow got their bearings, until they headed for a more appropriate place, like that settlement up in the Moonwood, or those two in the Forest of Mir.
While I don't think its ever been portrayed as such, given Eilistraee's preference for above ground/shallow settlements, the Promenade always struck me as something of a halfway house where goodly drow got their bearings, until they headed for a more appropriate place, like that settlement up in the Moonwood, or those two in the Forest of Mir.
True, the Promenade technically was in the Underdark.
I mentioned Faiths and Pantheons, which is the more recent sourcebook.
-And I mentioned Demihuman Deities, which goes into more detail that Faiths and Pantheons, and contains the tidbits that Faiths and Pantheons does not have, unfortunately.
Ed has said males can be clerics of Eilistraee. His word is to be taken as canon, so as far as I'm concerned, that settles it.
-After a great deal of hastle, which further reinforces the point that Eilistraee's church is highly ineffective in accomplishing the goal of what Eilistraee seeks to accomplish. Couple that with how Eilistraee's church is portrayed- all of which is canon, as well, and portrays a depth that sourcebooks and interviews/Q&A sessions do not- and it does not take much to see why a male Drow would shrink back from Eilistraee's church, and seek his divine fulfillment needs elsewhere, which is counterproductive for Eilistraee, especially when many turn to Vhaeraun, who she is almost as equally against. In both the Lady Penitent trilogy, and the War of the Spider Queen series, we have instances of followers of Eilistraee, female priestess', "overstepping their bounds", so to speak, and acting in a too-true parody of Lolthite priestess', when yelling and ordering around other worshipers during times of crisis. People can decry all they want how this isn't accurate, or whatever else they want to say, but these instances are fully canon, and happened 100%. Now, these are simply a few instances, as opposed to the full picture of her entire clergy, for as long as it's existed, but a few instances provide ample proof to demonstrate the claim that it does happen, and to reinforce the notion that a male Drow leaving Lolthite society would not want to simply trade in one thing for another, in a different color.
We can debate whether or not it's "fair" that males have to spend some time as a female to become a cleric, but that doesn't change the fact that they can be clerics, and it's inaccurate to say or imply that they can't.
-Can you make chicken parmesan out of chicken eggs? Sure, chicken eggs can become chickens, but that doesn't change the fact that, no matter what you do, chicken eggs cannot make chicken parmesan. When you chicken eggs transform into chickens, then you can make chicken parmesan, but you aren't exactly using eggs anymore.
I think you're making the assumption that the Eilistraeen Church and clergy takes on an authoritarian role in the lives of its lay members, but nothing I've read on the church suggests that is the case. It that sense, this Church is not equivalent to Lolth's. And while I don't doubt that the clergy gender issue would be off-putting to some, the vast majority of followers of any god are lay followers anyway (that is, most people don't aspire to gain political power through the church as a member of the priesthood, or care about the mysteries surrounding it).
-I have not once stated that Eilistraee and her clergy take an authoritarian role in the lives of it's members. I have stated, however, in it's "current" form, Eilistraee's church is working against the will and wishes of Eilistraee herself, by presenting a front that is a turn off to 50% of the Drow population. Drow males "freed" from living under the yoke of oppression of Lolth are not going to arbitrarily change one mistress for another. Female Drow being in political control of the church of Eilistraee- we have not been given a name or location of a single male priest of Eilistraee, as far as I am aware of- in and of itself is what causes problems for Eilistraee. That others do not aspire to have political power, or to become ordained members does not matter. After leaving Lolth's matriarchy (let's not forget, Lolth allows male priests as well), male Drow are presented with an almost comical mirror of the situation they found themselves in- powerful matriarchy of evil, as opposed to powerful matriarchy of good. Drow raised in mainstream Lolthite Drow society, let us not forget, do not trust easily. A Drow who leaves the oppressive Lolthite matriarchy, and comes face to face with the matriarchy of Eilistraee for the first time- a group that, for all of their lives, they have been told that such individuals are bad, bad, bad, by Lolth. They are going to "follow" these Eilistraeean clerics why?
-A person who was in an abusive relationship with their significant other, or whatever, when the two finally separate, is that person going to purposefully look for someone who exhibits similar qualities as their former significant other (barring the strange psychological disorders that this kind of abuse sadly creates)? Is a person who just left the big city, so that they can adjust their lifestyle to something they like better, going to choose to move to another big city? Is a person who left a specific religion, or a specific church going to drift towards a new one, that has similar qualities to the one that they just left? In this way, the structure of Eilistraee's church is counterproductive to the mission that Eilistraee seeks to perform. Given the fact that Eilistraee is an entity that is quite alive in the Forgotten Realms, a single act can change all of that, can restructure things so that her church is friendlier to all Drow, leaving all kinds of conditions to start new lives. Eilistraee has yet to do that, and as a result, the failure of her church rests squarely on her shoulders, and not even the shoulders of her clergy members, or collective church.
-And I mentioned Demihuman Deities, which goes into more detail that Faiths and Pantheons, and contains the tidbits that Faiths and Pantheons does not have, unfortunately.
It contains more detail, but if we are concerned about what's "canon", we need to go with the more up to date source. And it's a moot point anyway, thanks to Ed Greenwood's commentary, which is more recent than either source.
-After a great deal of hastle, which further reinforces the point that Eilistraee's church is highly ineffective in accomplishing the goal of what Eilistraee seeks to accomplish.
I'm honestly not interested in debating the finer points of whether or not Eilistraee could have been more effective--that was never the point I was trying to make. And as for the rest? I made the points I wanted to make--you should respect that, and not be insistent on trying to turn everything I said into an aggressive debate (which I've explained to you that I don't like).
Anyway I think Ellie would have been smarter to not act like Lloths faith and try to bring in men and put them in higher positions of power. She should have had them get away from the Lilith Fair deal and be more open to men and women. This would have increased her worshipers above and below Faerun and she would have had her powerbase rise, and she might not be dead.
(Of course the last part is subjective, WOTC wants you dead you die.)
It contains more detail, but if we are concerned about what's "canon", we need to go with the more up to date source.
-Sadly, Faiths and Pantheons doesn't have too much in-depth detail, so most of the stuff in Demihuman Deities is all we have to go on, since it's not even mentioned in F&P. F&P could have been awesome like the 2e ones, but...it failed. If it weren't for the pictures, it might be one of the worst 3e books. As it is, even with them, it doesn't rank all that high.
This would have increased her worshipers above and below Faerun and she would have had her powerbase rise, and she might not be dead.
-She didn't die because there was anything wrong with her worship base, or her divine power. She died because, like you said, WotC wanted her to die. I mean, Mystra has a large worship base, exponentially larger than Eilistraee's, but she died none the less. One thing the Lady Penitent books featured, that I found interesting, were various worshipers who were not Drow- the Half-Orc who died and was brought back (Jub, I think), and that Gnome magician/artist are two prime examples.
Hadn't really considered the points that the Church of Eilistraee was actually set up in a way that would be contrary to her actual goals. I think that's an even better and pretty convincing argument. One wouldn't move from one form of tyranny straight into something else that looks the same (even if it might not be), especially when you're naturally inclined towards evil and this other God is offering you positions of power....
-
-She didn't die because there was anything wrong with her worship base, or her divine power. She died because, like you said, WotC wanted her to die. I mean, Mystra has a large worship base, exponentially larger than Eilistraee's, but she died none the less. One thing the Lady Penitent books featured, that I found interesting, were various worshipers who were not Drow- the Half-Orc who died and was brought back (Jub, I think), and that Gnome magician/artist are two prime examples.
Ah, but if she had changed her policy on men and make it all more equal maybe more fans would prefer her and perhaps she would have been spared. ;)
She never came off as a man hater but some of those policies of her were a bit meh. To me she should have been against Lloth and the society she created. She should have tried to be the total and exact opposite of the Spiderqueen and her clergy. Go CN and acept Vaerhaun and then go from there. If she were the Masked Lady in the 90's and 2k she might still be around "officially". At least IMO she would have been.
Who cares really if any deity is dead or gone. Just don't play 4ED and/or pretend the Spellplague never happened and go on with your own realms the same way you always have. That's what I've done and pretty much everyone I personally know who plays FR. 4ED is horrible... sure, 4ED is great... sure...
In the end, it's Your Forgotten Realms!
Ah, but if she had changed her policy on men and make it all more equal maybe more fans would prefer her and perhaps she would have been spared. ;)
-She still would have been offed. She was offed because Drow = Lolth (something I don't have too much of a disagreement with, honestly), like Aegeri was saying, and not because of anything really in-game. Fans liking or not liking her seemingly had nothing to do with the decision; if they did, and Eilistraee had so many fans as the OP insinuated, then she wouldn't have been removed, since there were so many people out there digging her; if they didn't, well, they didn't.
Males are allowed to be followers of Eilistraee, and it's also possible for them to be clerics as per Ed Greenwood (also, F&P doesn't say males can't be clerics).
Because it doesn't quite fit with the strawman description you created for this goddess?
You don't have to like her, but that doesn't mean what you're saying about her is accurate.
Yes, they can be priests, if they go through with having themselves changed into women, and continuing to live as women from time to time.
As someone who has an active, personal interest in transgender/transsexual issues... That concept horrifies me beyond words and makes me physically sick.
For the few of them who actually are TG/TS? Great. For the rest of them? It's one of the most nausea-inducing ideas I've run across.
This is also one-sided, going back to the marginalization of males on top of the horror of the idea itself. Once again, males must do something above and beyond, and even then aren't allowed to advance very far.
And this is the church of the 'good' drow goddess. Yeah, they're better off with Corellon.
Erevan Ilesere is still around. Isn't that all that really needs to be said?
Who cares really if any deity is dead or gone. Just don't play 4ED and/or pretend the Spellplague never happened and go on with your own realms the same way you always have. That's what I've done and pretty much everyone I personally know who plays FR. 4ED is horrible... sure, 4ED is great... sure...
In the end, it's Your Forgotten Realms!
OMG. yes, yes ,yes. Finally. This is it. You may hate it I may like it but at the end of the day it is a RPG and we the PLAYERS/DM are in control of it all.
It is not a comic/TV series where the fans are helpless, it is a game and we are the true masters of it all. The books and srouce material has always just been a guideline for all of us to use if we felt like it. Good times.
And for the record, more times than you'd like to think, people do tend to get back into abusive relationships, fall in with yet another religious cult, believe insanely stupid things they shouldn't if they spent more than a few minutes thinking about them, and all sorts of other wonderfully self-destructive things, because that's all they know and haven't figured out that they can change things in their lives actively. Its way more common a behavior than I think is generally thought, at least according to most of the books I've read on the matter.
?sorry i just get a rise at pointing out how poorly implemented the novels were.
such as. ...another case in point. mishandling the "flavor" of eilistraee as having mostly female clerics to only having female worhsippers.
Now, males in Eilistraeen society are not oppressed. Nor are they barred from joining the clergy. They don't get treat like second class citizens, and they aren't treat like property. Sure, Vhaerun offers males more power, but they have to do evil in Vhaerun's service. (That is, of course, if they have even heard of Vhaerun.)
again i think even the smartest of us have missed the point of the OP?
sorry i just get a rise at pointing out how poorly implemented the novels were.
such as. ...another case in point. mishandling the "flavor" of eilistraee as having mostly female clerics to only having female worhsippers.
Nope, that's been a contention of mine for a very long time. A lot of those novels are written with far too much "Earthen" influence laced into them for my liking. From what I've seen, many of the authors don't really take a lot of the societal implications that the Realms has present, and to be honest, I'd even include Ed among those occassionally. Its a major component of why I'd like to see novels divorced from canon actually.
Great... just toss the men into positions of power that they have no idea how to deal with and watch them fail utterly more often than not, lose confidence in themselves and their ability to serve their deity, and end up in the Wall. What an absolutely great idea... almost as good as an idea as a very similar idea was with Africa at the end of Colonialism.
And for the record, more times than you'd like to think, people do tend to get back into abusive relationships, fall in with yet another religious cult, believe insanely stupid things they shouldn't if they spent more than a few minutes thinking about them, and all sorts of other wonderfully self-destructive things, because that's all they know and haven't figured out that they can change things in their lives actively. Its way more common a behavior than I think is generally thought, at least according to most of the books I've read on the matter.
I am not concerned about realism or real life abuse issues or any of that. I am talking about a game we play where we play makes believe and pretend we are elves. This is not WOD where we can play "real people".
I feel Ellie's popularity would have risen if her clergy was written/handled differently.
To me there should have been 3 drow religions. Lloth, Vaerhaun and Ellie. Lloth is supreme ruler, Ellie for those in the world above who want to be elves not drow and Vaerhaun for those that like being drow but hate the matriarchal society. Even then Ellie should have only been a part of her fathers faith the whole time and just represented an aspect of him. IMO.
Great... just toss the men into positions of power that they have no idea how to deal with and watch them fail utterly more often than not, lose confidence in themselves and their ability to serve their deity, and end up in the Wall. What an absolutely great idea... almost as good as an idea as a very similar idea was with Africa at the end of Colonialism.
-Whereas a lot of examples of people who previously had no power fell on their faces when given power, an equal, if not greater amount of examples exist of people standing up and, meeting the challenge, and overcoming it. Many nations in Eastern Europe are a great example; Poland especially. Casting off the yoke of oppressive rulers, there has been a great deal of shakiness, but so many nations are progressing quite nicely in the region, to the point that many have, or wish to join the EU, meaning that their governments are up to "European standards".
And for the record, more times than you'd like to think, people do tend to get back into abusive relationships...
-Which is why I said specifically barring the strange psychological conditions that arise from abusive relationships and such. A rational person is not going to leave X, only to go right back to X1, where X represents something that is a negative for them. I was raised a specific religion by my parents. When I reached an age where I was able to finally tell them where to stick it, in terms of forcing a religion on me, and came to a point where I could choose to adhere to a religion or moral standards that I found appealing, I did not gravitate towards a religion/moral philosophy that was wholly identical to the one that I discarded.
There are simple societal reasons as to why women in Eilistraeen societies would have the top level of power. Simply put, they are likely the only ones with any experience of power. This is something Stigger's mentioned above.
-Incorrect, as various males within Lolthite society are indeed vested with power. Men, as a whole, are relegated to a lower rung than females, but that does not in any way translated into male Drow within Lolthite society as being inept barbarians who cannot think or act for themselves. As evidenced, Eilistraeean society simply does what Lolthite society does- males, as a whole, are relegated to a lower rung. Individuals can reach positions of power, but coming from that specific group, they are doing so with a handicap, and as such, fewer are able to do so.
Now, males in Eilistraeen society are not oppressed.
-In the definition of the term, no one is oppressed, as in crushed by the ruling elite, in this case, the priestess' of Eilistraee. Discrimination based on sex is taking place, however. In and of itself, discrimination based on sex is something that I have no trouble with, in context of the setting. Lolth has a matriarchy that discriminates against males, and I am fine with that. In the context of Eilistraee, however, it is extremely hypocritical, at best.
Nor are they barred from joining the clergy.
-Significant barriers exist for males who wish to join Eilistraee's clergy, that ultimately translate themselves as the males in question having to become transformed into females for a period of time. As I said earlier, you cannot make chicken parmesan out of chicken eggs. Your eggs change into chickens before you can have your chicken parmesan. Even though your chickens came from eggs, they are not eggs, and are inherently changed from when they were eggs.
They don't get treat like second class citizens, and they aren't treat like property.
-Incorrect. Various sources have demonstrated multiple female clerics of Eilistraee expressing their disdain for male Drow, in general or during times of emotional excitement, including, but not limited to sexist discrimination as to who can and cannot worship in specific parts of Eilistraee's Promenade Temple, sexist discrimination as to how individuals can worship Eilistraee in the aforementioned temple, and general distrust when the two churches were merged (though, this feeling was mutual).
Sure, Vhaerun offers males more power, but they have to do evil in Vhaerun's service. (That is, of course, if they have even heard of Vhaerun.)
-Which makes no difference to the argument at hand.
His name shall be Srizzt.
----
In all seriousness, I never really disliked Eilistraee. She was interesting, at least. I would have preferred her goal to be different from redemption, however, and more as a transitory goddess. Her motive should have been to turn Drow away from Lolth (by worshiping her), and ultimately learning to honor and worship the rest of the Seldarine. Those that proved themselves worthy of true redemption (returning to the Seldarine), should have been transformed back into Dark Elves (Illythiiri).
Vhaeraun actually made sense for the Drow, as it gave males someone to turn too. However, unlike Eilistraee, he was not all that interesting really.
I think Eilistraean priestesses disdain for males in the instance LK provided might have been largely attributed to them being so called "ex"-vhearunites, and largely still having questionable morals.
I see the drow indoctrination as on of the most oppressive and intense on Fearun and agree with the notion the males can more easily accept female run divine institutions. It's not that hard to accept the female run the divine side of things when good male drow can pursue other avenues to power, like practising the Art or becoming a Bladesinger (:P).
Why no males? Same way only males can become the pope really. Tradition is a stubborn thing.
-Very true. The reason why I condemn Eilistraee herself, as I mentioned earlier, is because with a snap, she can "erase" that. Unlike the Catholic Church, with the Pope, there isn't provable empirical evidence that G-d, as the Catholic Church believes it, can directly communicate with the Pope. With Eilistraee, we have evidence, both anecdotal and actual, that demonstrates that she can directly communicate with her worshipers. Her goal is to free all Drow from the clutches of Lolth. The way that her church operates and is structured, however, is an impediment to this goal, as it offers male Drow no real reason to flock to her, other than she is Eilistraee, and is good (as opposed to Vhaeraun, who is evil, or any other random deity they might turn to; Mielikki, for instance). It's not a very effective way to "save" Drow. Eilistraee can, observing this, command her high priestess' and Chosen, and whoever else to reform her church, to make it more inviting to others. For whatever reason, be it, she is satisfied with how things work, or designers never really gave it much thought, or whatever else, however, she hasn't. As a result, Eilistraee herself is to blame, as well as her clergy and the way they do things. With something like the Catholic Church, they are the only ones to blame. We, as outside observers, have no way of telling that (A) G-d as they see it exists, and (B) that G-d, as they see it is pleased with/supports the various traditions that have sprung up (barring women from being ordained being one of them). If we had evidence to highlight both 'A' and 'B', the comparisons would be much more akin to each other than they already are.
I see the drow indoctrination as on of the most oppressive and intense on Fearun and agree with the notion the males can more easily accept female run divine institutions. It's not that hard to accept the female run the divine side of things when good male drow can pursue other avenues to power, like practising the Art or becoming a Bladesinger (:P).
-It isn't that Drow themselves can more easily accept women running divine institutions, while males run other institutional. It's the fact that, going with that layout, Eilistraee is placing a barrier to accomplish her main goal that is artificially constructed. Without it, her main goal would likely be easier to accomplish. It is for this reason that I label her church unrealistic, within the context of the setting itself.
The way that her church operates and is structured, however, is an impediment to this goal, as it offers male Drow no real reason to flock to her, other than she is Eilistraee, and is good (as opposed to Vhaeraun, who is evil, or any other random deity they might turn to; Mielikki, for instance).
I think that is the highest irony of all. The most popular and well known character in the entire setting (even more well known than Elminster) is Drizzt. He is a good aligned male Drow, and yet he has consciously chosen NOT to worship Eilistraee. What does that say about her?
An even greater irony is the fact that her "sacrifice" to "redeem" the drow failed to redeem Drizzt. He is still Drow and not Illythiiri, which means when he dies he will fall into Lolth's clutches. Ha! I would totally buy a Drizzt novel where he learns his fate should he die. One or two things happen: A) He goes to the dark side. B) He turns the emo dial all the way up to ten and rips it off / goes completely nuts.
I think that is the highest irony of all. The most popular and well known character in the entire setting (even more well known than Elminster) is Drizzt. He is a good aligned male Drow, and yet he has consciously chosen NOT to worship Eilistraee. What does that say about her?
-All it really says is that Drizzt did not know of her when he first came to the surface and took up the worship of Mielikki, and/or that R.A. Salvatore did not know of her when he began writing Drizzt's story, and ultimately felt that it either didn't matter, or something didn't fit, in turning Drizzt from someone who worshiped Mielikki to someone who worshiped Eilistraee.
He is still Drow and not Illythiiri, which means when he dies he will fall into Lolth's clutches.
-Well, no. As a faithful worshiper of Mielikki, upon death, he will go to Mielikki's realm (or, if she doesn't exist anymore, or never did exist in the first place, Silvanus, or whatever nature deity(ies) are in charge, now).
-All it really says is that Drizzt did not know of her when he first came to the surface and took up the worship of Mielikki, and/or that R.A. Salvatore did not know of her when he began writing Drizzt's story, and ultimately felt that it either didn't matter, or something didn't fit, in turning Drizzt from someone who worshiped Mielikki to someone who worshiped Eilistraee.
Actually, to be 100% truthful, I am pretty sure it is because in the past rangers were treated somewhat like paladins and had to worship a nature deity. (I am not 100% sure on that, but something in my head is telling me this is so.) I think that is why.
Be that as it may, it is still a slap in the face for Eilistraee. Had she managed to convert Drizzt, you can bet your last dollar that she'd still be alive right now. :P
-Well, no. As a faithful worshiper of Mielikki, upon death, he will go to Mielikki's realm (or, if she doesn't exist anymore, or never did exist in the first place, Silvanus, or whatever nature deity(ies) are in charge, now).
If I am not mistaken, this was the price of the game Eilistraee played with Lolth. In redeeming the drow that she could, Eilistraee saved them from Lolth. All who were not redeemed now belong to Lolth in death if not already in life. Or something along those lines.
Actually, to be 100% truthful, I am pretty sure it is because in the past rangers were treated somewhat like paladins and had to worship a nature deity.
-In that case, treat it as if Drizzt didn't know about her, then, I guess. That's the most sensible explanation, from an in-game perspective.
If I am not mistaken, this was the price of the game Eilistraee played with Lolth. In redeeming the drow that she could, Eilistraee saved them from Lolth. All who were not redeemed now belong to Lolth in death if not already in life. Or something along those lines.
-Basically, here's what you do: Disregard the ending of the Lady Penitent trilogy.
-Given what Lisa Smedman wrote, that is not how the afterlife works in the Forgotten Realms. Drizzt worships Mielikki as his patron. When he dies, his spirit will go to the Fugue Plane and be "picked up" by Mielikki. I think 4e might have changed this, and she picks up those spirits while on their way to the Fugue. Either way, the end result is the same.
As I said earlier, you cannot make chicken parmesan out of chicken eggs. Your eggs change into chickens before you can have your chicken parmesan. Even though your chickens came from eggs, they are not eggs, and are inherently changed from when they were eggs.
It was a stupid analogy when you first said it, and it's still a stupid analogy now.
-Whereas a lot of examples of people who previously had no power fell on their faces when given power, an equal, if not greater amount of examples exist of people standing up and, meeting the challenge, and overcoming it. Many nations in Eastern Europe are a great example; Poland especially. Casting off the yoke of oppressive rulers, there has been a great deal of shakiness, but so many nations are progressing quite nicely in the region, to the point that many have, or wish to join the EU, meaning that their governments are up to "European standards".
And they also had a history of self-rule that wasn't that far in the past... and for the most part enjoyed a certain level of self-rule, albeit according to the standards of an outside entity. That's a bit different from "no prior history" of anything even remotely like a modern national government. As far as I'm aware, only Ethiopia came close to it in Africa. It wasn't like the European colonial powers really encouraged the natives to indulge in self-rule all that often.
With the Eastern European examples, they weren't exactly colonies, and by and large had a strong history of independence and experience with centralized modern governments. That (approx.) 50 year period of Soviet domination isn't much at all in the context of a nation's history, barely two generations. Its a very different set of circumstances for the most part that doesn't really warrant comparison with the situation most African nations found themselves in at the end of Colonialism. And for the most part, those nations still probably find themselves in a better position than the average male drow would in a similar set of circumstances.
-Which is why I said specifically barring the strange psychological conditions that arise from abusive relationships and such. A rational person is not going to leave X, only to go right back to X1, where X represents something that is a negative for them. I was raised a specific religion by my parents. When I reached an age where I was able to finally tell them where to stick it, in terms of forcing a religion on me, and came to a point where I could choose to adhere to a religion or moral standards that I found appealing, I did not gravitate towards a religion/moral philosophy that was wholly identical to the one that I discarded.
They're not that strange, and in fact are quite common. And yes, rational people will do that very frequently... of course not a lot of people who we tend to think of as rational actually are, but that's a different point entirely. As to gravitating towards an identical religion/philosophy, that wasn't the point. The point was that you still gravitated towards one because that's what you were conditioned to do, in that you had to have something to believe in that was largely external to yourself. Keep in mind that the "you" there is meant rhetorically, not specifically aimed at LK, as I'm doing my best to keep this in as broad a manner as I can.
The point is that I doubt it would ever occur to your average drow male just released from their society and forced faith to not go out and seek another that was at least comfortable to them on some level. That would likely be a 'feminine' deity, if only because they were for the most part conditioned to think of males as weaker than females, and tend to see 'female' deities as having a better chance of protecting them from Lolth than a 'male' one would. No, its not particularly rational from an outside perspective, but it would be likely nonetheless because that's what they've been taught.
I'm sure this is sounding odd to many, but consider that most of us were raised with the idea that our own thoughts have value, that our opinions matter, that we have a right to think whatever we like, and that our existence matters, if only to ourselves. Now take those ideas and concepts away, and just imagine what it might be like for someone who has no idea that they have any self worth or purpose beyond serving their masters. None. Thoughts about being treated unfairly or cruelly aren't even going to come up for most of them, because they just can't imagine life any other way. Even breaking from their society is a massively huge step, and forming concepts like gender equality and a right to freedom are equally huge steps that aren't likely to come for years after they've escaped.
Its easy to say that well if they've taken one big step, then another won't be so difficult, but that's just almost never the case. It isn't a case of waking up one day and deciding to be free and demanding equal rights. People, and by extension elves, just don't work that way psychologically. What we've come to take for granted as being obviously self-evident are unimaginably huge personal and societal steps that can't be taken all at once if you've never even conceived of them. Just consider that 50 years ago, an "colored" person couldn't drink at a "white" fountain or eat at a "white" restauraunt, and that state of affairs went on for a considerable amount of time, with much worse preceeding it in the centuries before, before someone caught on that this acceptable behavior in a supposedly free society. It takes a damned long time for this stuff to happen, and its probably even worse for very long-lived elves.
As to Eilistraee just snapping her fingers and changing things because it's the right thing to do... just no. The culture shock is going to be bad enough just going from Lolth-dominated society to the Promenade. Like I said, gradual process to get them used to the idea, rather than just dumping them in the deep end and making the transition that much more frustrating, confusing, and painful for them... which applies equally to both genders.
Actually, to be 100% truthful, I am pretty sure it is because in the past rangers were treated somewhat like paladins and had to worship a nature deity. (I am not 100% sure on that, but something in my head is telling me this is so.) I think that is why.
Be that as it may, it is still a slap in the face for Eilistraee. Had she managed to convert Drizzt, you can bet your last dollar that she'd still be alive right now. :P
If I am not mistaken, this was the price of the game Eilistraee played with Lolth. In redeeming the drow that she could, Eilistraee saved them from Lolth. All who were not redeemed now belong to Lolth in death if not already in life. Or something along those lines.
Drizzt was introduced in 1e(circa 1988 our time) Eilistraee came along much later. Drizzt hasbeen following Mieliekki(? Spelling) for quite a while before Eil came along and since no drastic changes in his present deity so no reason to convert to her. But he has known of her since the "Hunters Blade" trilogy.
They're not that strange, and in fact are quite common. And yes, rational people will do that very frequently... of course not a lot of people who we tend to think of as rational actually are, but that's a different point entirely. As to gravitating towards an identical religion/philosophy, that wasn't the point. The point was that you still gravitated towards one because that's what you were conditioned to do, in that you had to have something to believe in that was largely external to yourself. Keep in mind that the "you" there is meant rhetorically, not specifically aimed at LK, as I'm doing my best to keep this in as broad a manner as I can.
The point is that I doubt it would ever occur to your average drow male just released from their society and forced faith to not go out and seek another that was at least comfortable to them on some level. That would likely be a 'feminine' deity, if only because they were for the most part conditioned to think of males as weaker than females, and tend to see 'female' deities as having a better chance of protecting them from Lolth than a 'male' one would. No, its not particularly rational from an outside perspective, but it would be likely nonetheless because that's what they've been taught.
I'm sure this is sounding odd to many, but consider that most of us were raised with the idea that our own thoughts have value, that our opinions matter, that we have a right to think whatever we like, and that our existence matters, if only to ourselves. Now take those ideas and concepts away, and just imagine what it might be like for someone who has no idea that they have any self worth or purpose beyond serving their masters. None. Thoughts about being treated unfairly or cruelly aren't even going to come up for most of them, because they just can't imagine life any other way. Even breaking from their society is a massively huge step, and forming concepts like gender equality and a right to freedom are equally huge steps that aren't likely to come for years after they've escaped.
Its easy to say that well if they've taken one big step, then another won't be so difficult, but that's just almost never the case. It isn't a case of waking up one day and deciding to be free and demanding equal rights. People, and by extension elves, just don't work that way psychologically. What we've come to take for granted as being obviously self-evident are unimaginably huge personal and societal steps that can't be taken all at once if you've never even conceived of them. Just consider that 50 years ago, an "colored" person couldn't drink at a "white" fountain or eat at a "white" restauraunt, and that state of affairs went on for a considerable amount of time, with much worse preceeding it in the centuries before, before someone caught on that this acceptable behavior in a supposedly free society. It takes a damned long time for this stuff to happen, and its probably even worse for very long-lived elves.
You know, Stigger I had never looked at it that way before. However, I think you make a strong point. Your examples aren't all that good, though. ;)
I think the best example is to take a look at women in our world. During the Middle Ages in most of the West, women were viewed as subservient to men, someone who should serve her husband faithfully. It did not matter what he did - the male was always right.
It took us centuries, literally, to begin moving toward gender equality. Yet, even today there are many women who still cling to the belief that the 'old way' was better. They scorn other women who work instead of staying home to raise their children, for example. For a race as long lived as Drow and other Elves, I imagine this could be much worse.
It is difficult for me to understand, being a male myself. I have to step back for a moment, and try and put myself in the mind of a woman in Medieval times. How would she view the modern take on gender equality? It would likely horrify her, I imagine. She would feel vulnerable and weak. All her life she was taught that the husband must provide for her, that she needs a man and that she was weak (both physically and mentally), that she was less than a man. Yet, if she were to suddenly be thrust into our modern world... it would be too alien for her to accept. She would most likely turn to the strongest, most reassuring male she could find and attach herself to him, even more so if she has children.
It is somewhat hard to think of male drow in this light. Their society is different, as males are brought up to be as ruthless as the females. Yet, at the same time I imagine some of the psychology is there.
As to Eilistraee just snapping her fingers and changing things because it's the right thing to do... just no. The culture shock is going to be bad enough just going from Lolth-dominated society to the Promenade. Like I said, gradual process to get them used to the idea, rather than just dumping them in the deep end and making the transition that much more frustrating, confusing, and painful for them... which applies equally to both genders.
Even taking the above into account, it is hard for me to imagine a drow (simply from a cultural prospective) embracing Eilistraee. If she were a neutral deity, capable of allowing both evil and good aligned individuals into her clergy, then it might be different.
I mean, let's face it. If you're goal is to redeem the drow it does you little good to give the majority of them the finger because you disapprove of them. A longer view is needed. You must take them, even if they are evil, and once you have them you can work toward redemption, but it cannot begin until you've pried them from Lolth.
There are also issues of practicality. It is very difficult for me to imagine a good or neutral person surviving in Drow society, because their actions would be constrained by morality. If you are Drow, living in a Lolthite dominated society, a certain amount of ruthlessness is a necessity if you want to stay alive. Any display of "weakness" (especially moral "weakness") will result in you being set upon by those who perceive themselves as stronger. And frankly, I believe it is necessary for Eilistraee to have worshipers within Lolthite dominated society in order to help secretly convert other Drow and then help them escape the society to safety.
Because of all the above reasons, the Masked Lady made the most sense out of all the deities. She was female, thus accommodating those males who believed that they "needed" a female to "protect" them. She was also (at least it seemed) neutral instead of good, allowing her to embrace evil followers of Vhaeraun (who might have come over to her originally had she been willing to accept them).
As to her being neutral... its hard to imagine her caring if she were Neutral whether they were redeemed or not. Personally, I don't see her objecting to evil types myself, that one-step rule be damned. Her concept I wholly embrace, but her execution as a deity left quite a bit to be desired. She had a lot of natural allies that seemed to have been ignored for some reason... Selune, Lliira, and Sune at least should have been much more supportive, and I've yet to fathom a strong reason as to why she and Mystra would be so strongly allied in terms of their portfolios and areas of interest, at least beyond friendship.
As to a good or neutral person surviving in Drow society, I don't really have that big of a problem with it. That someone is morally outraged by something doesn't mean they have to be stupid and get themselves killed to protest something they find offensive. Toss in being cowed, and fearful for your own safety only makes the impetus to remain silent that much stronger. That doesn't mean you don't have a conscience, just that you don't have the luxury of acting on it without certain death. If they're dead, they can't really work to change their society, and martyrdom aside, after a few examples were made and good sorts learned that martyrdom wasn't that effective, its not hard to imagine they decided to take a different approach to changing things.
Certainly there would have to be a certain amount of moral compromise, and if I recall correctly, you're not a big fan of that for truly good sorts, but I'd contend that morals and the ability to act on them is something of a luxury. It requires a vocabulary to express that outrage, to put those feelings into something other than disgust, to understand why the atrocities you're witnessing are wrong in the first place. That they are disturbed by their own society is doubtless, but if they have no real concept of what "good" should be like beyond a few vague feelings (since they've never really learned about it or seen examples of it), there's not much they can do about it beyond mourn in silence.
Until those thoughts are articulated and ordered, and given form beyond gut emotion, how are they supposed to come up with any plan to change things if they can't even describe what it is they're feeling? Hells, the drow language doesn't even have a word for friend, the closest thing to it was a word for "not enemy". If they don't have the word, the society at large doesn't have the concept, so the goodly types are just left sputtering, trying to figure out how to express what they feel, even to themselves, much less anyone else.
I can't say I'm very familiar with the Masked Lady, but to be honest, from what I've heard of it, it strikes me as though someone didn't put enough thought into the implications behind Eilistraee and her dogma, so what should have been included from the beginning was tagged on quickly just before the end.
As to a good or neutral person surviving in Drow society, I don't really have that big of a problem with it. That someone is morally outraged by something doesn't mean they have to be stupid and get themselves killed to protest something they find offensive. Toss in being cowed, and fearful for your own safety only makes the impetus to remain silent that much stronger. That doesn't mean you don't have a conscience, just that you don't have the luxury of acting on it without certain death. If they're dead, they can't really work to change their society, and martyrdom aside, after a few examples were made and good sorts learned that martyrdom wasn't that effective, its not hard to imagine they decided to take a different approach to changing things.
Certainly there would have to be a certain amount of moral compromise, and if I recall correctly, you're not a big fan of that for truly good sorts, but I'd contend that morals and the ability to act on them is something of a luxury. It requires a vocabulary to express that outrage, to put those feelings into something other than disgust, to understand why the atrocities you're witnessing are wrong in the first place. That they are disturbed by their own society is doubtless, but if they have no real concept of what "good" should be like beyond a few vague feelings (since they've never really learned about it or seen examples of it), there's not much they can do about it beyond mourn in silence.
Until those thoughts are articulated and ordered, and given form beyond gut emotion, how are they supposed to come up with any plan to change things if they can't even describe what it is they're feeling? Hells, the drow language doesn't even have a word for friend, the closest thing to it was a word for "not enemy". If they don't have the word, the society at large doesn't have the concept, so the goodly types are just left sputtering, trying to figure out how to express what they feel, even to themselves, much less anyone else...
Very well put! That's the story of Liriel Baenre.
Never read those books... might have to pick them up one day though, I'm in need of some brain candy, and I can't quite bring myself to get that last Knights of Myth Drannor book just yet for some reason.
As to her being neutral... its hard to imagine her caring if she were Neutral whether they were redeemed or not. Personally, I don't see her objecting to evil types myself, that one-step rule be damned. Her concept I wholly embrace, but her execution as a deity left quite a bit to be desired. She had a lot of natural allies that seemed to have been ignored for some reason... Selune, Lliira, and Sune at least should have been much more supportive, and I've yet to fathom a strong reason as to why she and Mystra would be so strongly allied in terms of their portfolios and areas of interest, at least beyond friendship.
Working my way backward... Mystra seems to have been "strongly allied" (or just "allied") with most every good aligned deity, and a good portion of the neutral aligned deities as well. I'm not sure why either, other than to enforce the notion that Mystra was good therefore, she had good aligned allies. Mystra was always given more influence and power than she truly warranted and her portfolios and influence grew into areas that she had no real influence.
Really, if you want to get at the heart of the issue regarding deities... there is no good way to solve it. The best thing that could happen is to never again have a novel where deities play one of the main characters. They should have learned this from the Avatar Trilogy, but they failed to do so... I can't think of a single book where a deity was one of the main characters that turned out well liked. Paul Kemps books seem to be well liked, and he seems to be a good author, and I know Mask and Shar play some roles in his books. I am not sure how much, though, and I'd argue that his books gave Mask more power than he truly warranted.
As to the one step rule, that is pretty much the core of my problem with her being good aligned. The vast majority of Drow are evil, and it didn't seem to make sense that Eilistraee would tell them, "Oh, I'd like to help you, but first you have to come back to me when you're less icky-evil." As you pointed out in your post, they don't even have a word for friend. Most of the things Eilistraee seeks to teach them are virtually alien to them. Many more would become good if she could find a way to speak to them in ways that they'd understand and (more importantly) accept them for their flaws. Even an evil drow could be useful to her cause, because for her to truly win she'd have to destroy Lolth.
Once Lolth is out of the way, Eilistraee could have filled the void and then found a way to redeem all drow. She obviously failed in that, even though she apparently claims victory in the novels.
As to a good or neutral person surviving in Drow society, I don't really have that big of a problem with it. That someone is morally outraged by something doesn't mean they have to be stupid and get themselves killed to protest something they find offensive. Toss in being cowed, and fearful for your own safety only makes the impetus to remain silent that much stronger. That doesn't mean you don't have a conscience, just that you don't have the luxury of acting on it without certain death. If they're dead, they can't really work to change their society, and martyrdom aside, after a few examples were made and good sorts learned that martyrdom wasn't that effective, its not hard to imagine they decided to take a different approach to changing things.
Certainly there would have to be a certain amount of moral compromise, and if I recall correctly, you're not a big fan of that for truly good sorts, but I'd contend that morals and the ability to act on them is something of a luxury. It requires a vocabulary to express that outrage, to put those feelings into something other than disgust, to understand why the atrocities you're witnessing are wrong in the first place. That they are disturbed by their own society is doubtless, but if they have no real concept of what "good" should be like beyond a few vague feelings (since they've never really learned about it or seen examples of it), there's not much they can do about it beyond mourn in silence.
Until those thoughts are articulated and ordered, and given form beyond gut emotion, how are they supposed to come up with any plan to change things if they can't even describe what it is they're feeling? Hells, the drow language doesn't even have a word for friend, the closest thing to it was a word for "not enemy". If they don't have the word, the society at large doesn't have the concept, so the goodly types are just left sputtering, trying to figure out how to express what they feel, even to themselves, much less anyone else.
See here is my problem: You have to think about day-to-day life in drow society. If you are a good aligned person, even if you can't vocalize what you feel, you still know that beating your slave is wrong. Yet, if you are in the market or some place similar, and your slave back talks you or refuses to do as you ask... what happens if you let them get away with it? Other drow are watching. In your heart, you know that beating your slave is wrong, and yet if you do not discipline your slave other drow will perceive you as weak. When you are perceived as weak, that makes you vulnerable. It isn't about martyrdom. It's about survival.
Having morals in drow society puts you at a disadvantage. The cards are already stacked against you. Your life is already in danger. You may be charged with sacrificing a child to Lolth. Do you refuse? Sure, you can. Then you die and are sacrificed with the child. That does not serve Eilistraee's cause.
Day-to-day life in Drow society is practically unlivable. It is simply too evil and too cruel, and if you're truly good you're either going to want to escape (because you can't stand it) or fight back. Yet, if you fight back it has to be in secret and never in the open - to do otherwise invites death.
So it requires you, by the nature of your situation, to balance between your morality and your cause. You may have to torture, murder, sacrifice innocents to Lolth, and even give the Spider Queen lip service - just to survive. That does not include what you must do in order to fight against your enemies, which may be just as bad or worse.
Yet, as a good aligned goddess, how can Eilistraee condone or accept this of her servants? How do her priestesses give her lay followers council on such matters? You could ignore the one step rule, and yet were Eilistraee to receive an influx of evil aligned worshipers, this would doubtlessly shift her alignment away from good. (Which seems to be what happened in the novels when she embraced the worshipers of her brother.)
Seriously though, how many commoners, who form the majority of the populace, would be keeping slaves in the first place? I haven't looked at the Menzo boxed set in years, but I don't recall Drow of the Underdark (for 2e) mentioning much about commoners keeping slaves. Certainly this would come up for a noble, but really, how likely are they to be to start questioning things when they're the primary beneficiaries of the societal order? Of course its more exciting to write about those nobles, but they probably aren't the primary worshippers of Eilistraee in the first place.
I'd tend to view Drow society in something of an analogy to Medieval Europe in a lot of ways, in that the nobility acted one way, with rampant sexism and racism, but in a lot of respects, the commoners were much more pragmatic and tended towards an egalatarianism born out of practicality and necessity. Honestly, I'd suspect life was much harsher for a drow male born into a noble house than it was for a drow male commoner, much as it was for the women born into European nobility.
Were that not the case, with the depravity and cruelty effectively limited to the nobility, I can't see how Drow society wouldn't have disintegrated long ago. Life in the Underdark is just too tenuous to support a society that is constantly at its own throat on every social level.
As to Eilistraee being shifted away from good by an influx of evil worshippers... I don't really see things that way. I could see where one might view things that way, but I've never really much bought into deities being extensions of their worshippers, with their beliefs shaping the deity in a short term sense. Were she to maintain and support evil worshippers constantly without trying to shift them to at least neutral over several centuries or millenia, then I could see the shift to neutral happening... but not over something as trivial as a year or decade. I'd probably say anything under 250 years would be little more than a bump on the road.
If you're good, why would you be keeping slaves? :P ;)
For the same reason the Church of Horus-Re kept slaves, a Lawful Good Church, and the Pharaoh was a Paladin. ;)
I don't see slave keeping as evil, per-say. There are more types of slavery than simple chattel slavery, and I would rope feudalism into a form of slavery. (A serf is viewed as part of the land, is sold with the land, and if he / she tries to escape a lords service... well... suffice it to say they're brought back, forcefully and punished harshly.)
I see slavery as most likely being on the law / chaos axis, because it mostly deals with the issue of freedom. The more lawful a society, the less individual freedom there is likely to exist. However, the type of laws that exist, as well as how you treat your slave determines whether or not it is good or evil. In this way, there can be a morally good society that is little more than a tyranny and a chaotic evil society - where only the strong survive, such as with the drow or orcs.
I have a thread talking about different types of slavery in a D&D world here. It goes into detail on various types of slavery outside of the traditional chattel form.
Seriously though, how many commoners, who form the majority of the populace, would be keeping slaves in the first place? I haven't looked at the Menzo boxed set in years, but I don't recall Drow of the Underdark (for 2e) mentioning much about commoners keeping slaves. Certainly this would come up for a noble, but really, how likely are they to be to start questioning things when they're the primary beneficiaries of the societal order? Of course its more exciting to write about those nobles, but they probably aren't the primary worshippers of Eilistraee in the first place.
The bulk of any deities worshipers are commoners. Yet, I think the fact escapes the point. Drow commoners are no less evil or cutthroat than their noble counterparts. In some ways, they must be even more cutthroat if they hope to rise to greater power.
Drow society is ruled by one single emotion, and that emotion is fear. If you display weakness, no matter how small, those around you will begin to see an opportunity or betray you to others. Why not? If you lead them you must be strong enough to protect them. If you show weakness, then you are obviously not strong. If you serve another who is stronger, and display weakness then what use are you to one who is strong? Further, if you serve another who is stronger, what right do you have to refuse their commands even if it goes against your better moral judgment? You are too weak to refuse, doing so would mean death, and thus you must comply or seek to prove yourself stronger by killing the one you serve. In which case, you would be viewed as stronger and be in an even more dangerous position.
Virtually any "good" act will be viewed as weak. In order to survive in drow society there is a certain amount of ruthlessness required, a requirement to be evil - by necessity if not by choice. You either embrace it or you die, it's that simple. And the further and lower down you are on the totem pole the worse off you are. You may be able to escape the notice of the big fish, but you've only traded them for a hundred little fish who are just as hungry and no less capable of killing you.
I'd tend to view Drow society in something of an analogy to Medieval Europe in a lot of ways, in that the nobility acted one way, with rampant sexism and racism, but in a lot of respects, the commoners were much more pragmatic and tended towards an egalatarianism born out of practicality and necessity. Honestly, I'd suspect life was much harsher for a drow male born into a noble house than it was for a drow male commoner, much as it was for the women born into European nobility.
Were that not the case, with the depravity and cruelty effectively limited to the nobility, I can't see how Drow society wouldn't have disintegrated long ago. Life in the Underdark is just too tenuous to support a society that is constantly at its own throat on every social level.
I don't disagree that Drow society should have disintegrated long ago, and that it is wholly unstable. At best, they should have degenerated into mindless tribal barbarism by this point. However, to the best of my understanding this is the way drow society works. It isn't just the nobility. Certainly, it is both worse and better as a noble - you have less enemies because you have more power, but at the same time your enemies are almost just as powerful.
At best, the Church of Lolth acts as the stabilizing force in the society, preventing it from collapsing entirely. A merchant is likely to have it the easiest, because he or she is fairly valuable and thus not as expendable as a mere commoner.
However, if Eilistraee wanted to be successful, she must be practical to worship by all members of Drow Society, from the highest to the lowest. This means she'd even allow her priestesses to pretend that they were priestesses of Lolth, so that they could work secretly within a society for as long as possible.
In order for Eilistraee to be successful in taking over your average drow city, she'd at the very least need to capture the support of the strongest noble houses and overthrow the Church of Lolth. Then her faithful would be required to force the rest of the population to embrace her - or else. It's the only thing they've ever known. Drow respect strength, and Eilistraee in a sense would have to be as ruthless as her mother to successfully destroy her. Ruthlessness and 'good' really don't go together. At least in my mind.
If Eilistraee were not willing to embrace the Drow for what they were, in hopes of reforming them slowly over time, all in an effort to destroy her mother... then her cause is lost, her war pointless, her purpose doomed to failure. Thus, to a drow - weak and unworthy of worship.
It is a scene that has played out countless times in Drow society. A daughter challenges her mother for power. What sane drow, living as they have, knowing what they know, would place their faith in Eilistraee if they fear Lolth more?
It was clear who would win, in the end: Lolth. Because Eilistraee was unwilling and too good to do what was required to defeat her. As such, she doomed the drow, those she had sworn to redeem.
Eilistraee wears her goodness like a suit of armor. She thinks it keeps her safe, but all it does is weigh her down; making it hard for her to move. Lolth has no such qualms and thus can move without restraint. Fear will always crush hope, and in the mind of a drow it is better to be damned than dead.
As to drow... while I know that's the official take on them, its not one I particularly accept as being accurate. I can't wrap my mind around the idea that a society structured that way could survive for 10 months, much less 10 centuries, in an environment as hostile as the Underdark. I prefer to think of things as being seen through the eyes of a Noble/Cleric, rather than through the eyes of your average drow, even though isn't a view particularly well suited to canon unless you're willing to draw a lot on inference, rather than explicit statements.
You make an interesting point about Lolth and Eilistraee though, and how their story is played out among Drow nobility time and time again. But, it also explains why she only has a relatively small following among the drow quite nicely.
Furthermore, Eilistraee has lore on the real stories behind the drow descent, which her clergy can convey in beautiful songs. Through revealing the truth and uncovering the lies of Vhearun and Lolth a lot of goodwill or unrest can be created in the Underdark drow males. It's true that the truth lasts evermore. It's only the difficulty of bringing those truths to the commoner and noble drow that has kept her clergy so small.
The fearie elves of the surface and their clergy are dicidedly good aligned, and Eilistraee still is a member of the goodwilled Seldarine. To forsake her origin would have undone her eventual goal, helping to bringing along a sizable dark elven population back to worshipping the Seldarine. She always skirted the sides of drow society to look out and slowly nurture those few morally salvagable drow left towards the surface.
As to drow... while I know that's the official take on them, its not one I particularly accept as being accurate. I can't wrap my mind around the idea that a society structured that way could survive for 10 months, much less 10 centuries, in an environment as hostile as the Underdark. I prefer to think of things as being seen through the eyes of a Noble/Cleric, rather than through the eyes of your average drow, even though isn't a view particularly well suited to canon unless you're willing to draw a lot on inference, rather than explicit statements.
I don't disagree that by all rights Drow society should have collapsed. Yet, speaking canonically, that is how they are portrayed. I rationalize it by envisioning Drow as having a high birthrate and the Church of Lolth interfering where something might cause massive social collapse. It isn't in Lolth's best interest to allow drow culture to destroy them, even though she is the source of it.
At the same time, seeing as how Lolth is what stands between them and total annihilation, that gives the drow even more reason to fear and appease her... for without her, they'd surely be long dead.
It is somewhat ironic, I think - their greatest strength and unifying force is Lolth, and yet at the same time she is their greatest weakness - the source of all their suffering.
You make an interesting point about Lolth and Eilistraee though, and how their story is played out among Drow nobility time and time again. But, it also explains why she only has a relatively small following among the drow quite nicely.
Yes, it is one reason I liked the Eilistraee / Lolth relationship. It made sense in the context of drow culture and society.
However, Eilistraee could supplant Lolth if she had the will to do it. It's just that she'd have to think and act more like her mother in the short term for long term gains.
As I said before: If Eilistraee wished to supplant Lolth in a city, she'd have to do a few things.
First, she'd have to infiltrate the strongest Drow houses and gain them as worshipers. To do this, she'd likely have to offer them things Lolth either can't or won't. She'd have to play Lolth's game of betrayal, treachery and deceit as she cements her influence. At this point she is likely dealing with Drow who are completely evil. You don't get to the top of the food chain in Drow society without being completely evil.
Second, she'd have to use those who serve her to overthrow and destroy the Church of Lolth within the city. In doing this she must be ruthless. Every priestess of Lolth must be put to death. They need not be tortured, simply killed and their deaths made plain and clear for the rest of the society to see. Stake their bodies in the town square. Then call upon every drow within the city, individually, to kneel, forsake Lolth and embrace Eilistraee. Refusal means death.
There would be a civil war as a result of this, but any who refuse to worship Eilistraee must be killed and made examples of... the purpose of this is to cause fear. As well as to show that Eilistraee is more powerful than Lolth, and therefore can protect the drow from her mother's wrath. Drow aren't stupid. Their faith in Lolth is completely based in fear. It is the only way they know how to worship. In order to supplant Lolth in the hearts and minds of Drow Eilistraee must make the Drow fear her more, and make the consequences of refusing to worship her clear. Worship of Lolth is treason and traitors die. Period. No exceptions.
Once the chaos has ended, once Eilistraee has taken firm control of the city, that is when she can begin moving the Drow toward reform. She can move them away from the old ways and establish new ones. She can teach them to worship and how not to live their lives in fear. It would likely take several generations to fully banish all of Lolth's influence and taint.
In the mean time, she's forced to act in a way that is familiar to the Drow. To communicate with them in ways that they understand. Eilistraee is (and was) unwilling to do this. This is why she lost.
Since she is unwilling to do what is necessary to gain the Drow as faithful worshipers, she gets the crumbs from Lolth's table. Those that are too weak or unwilling to embrace Lolth or her ways must flee, and it is those individuals that turn to Eilistraee. The downside is that she fights over those crumbs with the other drow deities: Ghaunadaur is the god of outcasts and her brother is more appealing to evil males who are embittered at Drow females. That leaves her with those who aren't evil. Which is rare, even among the crumbs.
In the end it is easy to see why WotC had Eilistraee go the whole martyrdom route in the novels. It was her only viable option for any sort of non-failure. (I use the term non-failure because I would not call what she accomplished a success. She more or less did not lose, but neither did she win. Her overall goal of redeeming all drow failed, however, and the hope of future redemption died with her.)
But would recognizing good emotions and behaviour truly be seen as weak in drow society? What about on more neutral grounds in the underdark? A drow male who encountered a travelling samaritan eilistraean would likely have respect for her strength to have broken away from the yoke of lolthian protocol, her stealth and prowess at hunting and survival, their beauty in form, song and dance. Strength, cunning and beauty are all highly sought out values in dark elven psychology.
Furthermore, Eilistraee has lore on the real stories behind the drow descent, which her clergy can convey in beautiful songs. Through revealing the truth and uncovering the lies of Vhearun and Lolth a lot of goodwill or unrest can be created in the Underdark drow males. It's true that the truth lasts evermore. It's only the difficulty of bringing those truths to the commoner and noble drow that has kept her clergy so small.
When a drow male sees a traveling Eilistraeen, the first thing he wants to know is if she is alone and if he can capture her. He knows that his status would improve greatly should she be caught and sacrificed to Lolth. The only thing that would hold him at bay would be fear.
Every action a drow takes is fear based. Their strength is an illusion - they live their lives in terror. They are fearful of displeasing Lolth, fearful of their mothers, fearful of their cousins, fearful of their brothers and sisters, fearful of showing emotions that are not anger, hatred or bitterness.
The Eilistraeen may be able to sing beautiful songs, but no one will hear them. Her songs, if captured, would be replaced by beautiful screams of agony. And should she try and speak those truths she'd have her tongue cut out.
It is wholly inconceivable that Eilistraee could defeat her mother and redeem the drow race as a whole with that mindset. What is she going to do? Have her followers show up with moonbeams painted on their bellies and have them do the "carebear stare"... and then magically all drow who see this would see the error of their ways and forsake Lolth?
No. They'd be butchered.
Following Eilistraee is suicide in a society where you are already a hair away from certain death. It is like pledging to follow a general into war, knowing full well that the war is lost before it begins. It's a war of principle. If a drow cannot see victory, why should they follow? Why should they risk their lives to embrace a goddess with an uncertain future? She offers them nothing but hope and promises, but that won't protect or shield them from Lolth, the true source of all their fears.
The fearie elves of the surface and their clergy are dicidedly good aligned, and Eilistraee still is a member of the goodwilled Seldarine. To forsake her origin would have undone her eventual goal, helping to bringing along a sizable dark elven population back to worshipping the Seldarine. She always skirted the sides of drow society to look out and slowly nurture those few morally salvagable drow left towards the surface.
And this is why she is doomed to failure. She abandoned her origin when she willingly chose exile. She had a clear choice: she could seek to redeem all drow by killing her mother, or she could choose to sustain herself off the crumbs from her mothers table. She made her choice, and in the end she lost.
Her exile can be seen in a more positive light when Eilistraee had the intention to not only save the drow as a race, but also her mother from her folly. Redeeming Araushnee and Vhaerun was her ultimate goal in my view. She was quite a naieve godling.
As to your take Meldread, you're certainly welcome to it, but it seems a lot darker than I think would be sustainable on a societal level. Fear only works for so long, until it reaches a level of numbness where you just don't care anymore, so you start taking risks because anything is better than your current position, even death. While it makes for a good story and a great villain, its not a particularly tenable position for a society to find itself in.
Different world views I guess, but hey, that's what makes life interesting.
Lolth is at the heart of all the problems for the Drow. Lolth set the rules of the game when it comes to winning the hearts and minds of the drow. If Eilistraee is unwilling to play the game, she cannot win.
Of course, it does come with a downside - she loses a bit of herself. She must fight constantly not to become like her mother. Yet, Erevan Ilesere is a chaotic neutral deity and is still a member of the Seldarine. I cannot see why Eilistraee would be expelled so long as she is able to maintain a chaotic neutral alignment. She should be able to do such, so long as she does not fall prey to enjoying the things she must do for success... and after Lolth's death, begin trying to redeem herself back toward chaotic good.
It is very irksome, really. I really like the premise of Eilistraee as I feel it fits nicely with drow culture. Yet, the personality of Eilistraee is so completely at odds with the drow that it is alien. Even Ghaunadaur is easier for them to understand than Eilistraee.
It is why I think the Masked Lady was the best incarnation of Eilistraee. It took the best of her brother, and the best of herself and combined it together to give her some type of actual intelligence. In truth, Eilistraee should not have even survive that long, and I can only assume that the reason she was able to do so was because of her father.
In the end Lolth is the source of all problems for the Drow. Even Eilistraee can see that. If she wanted to save the Drow, there was only one way to do it... and that would be to challenge her mother and destroy her. She could have been successful if she was more pragmatic in her approach, taking a long view of things. She could have offered the Drow a better future, and true redemption, but instead took the easy path and cloaked herself in an armor of righteousness.
When I think of the naive Eilistraee, I think of a coward. A coward can be as brave as anyone, when there is nothing to fear. It is easy to do your duty, when there is no cost to it. Yet, will her righteousness feed the drow? Will her righteousness shield their children? No, it will not. All she does is mark them for death.
Who wants to worship a goddess doomed to fail?
As to your take Meldread, you're certainly welcome to it, but it seems a lot darker than I think would be sustainable on a societal level. Fear only works for so long, until it reaches a level of numbness where you just don't care anymore, so you start taking risks because anything is better than your current position, even death. While it makes for a good story and a great villain, its not a particularly tenable position for a society to find itself in.
I am not disagreeing with you on a logical level. I am simply debating the issue on a canonical level, and as far as I am aware, my depiction of Drow is canonical.
Of course it's dark, though - Drow are supposed to be completely evil. What did you expect? :P
As to what I expected, I was hoping for some happy smiley bunnies and maybe a unicorn beneath a rainbow... :P ;)
That trilogy was poorly-written anyway.
I'd like to disagree here. When it comes to detail and well-worked characters, not that many novels surpass this trilogy. It's only too bad that some centre-stage characters are "over-drawn" and do behave a bit erratic. QUite a number of current (or rather late 3.5E) novelists are top-notch writers IMHO.
BTW, regulars, if you've been missing me*, I'm still around, but shoulder-deep translating Pathfinder into German ... or over at Candlekeep.
*Dare you say anything else!
I do agree that Eilistraee is a naive goddess. Yet, at the same time, any drow with a wit of sense would see that. I could not imagine a drow, unless they were blindly idealistic or simply had no choice (they were already outcast) embracing her as their goddess.
Perhaps, but I've often thought about something else: why do regular drow females worship Lolth? They are all puppets dancing on their strings, and in turn pulling those of others, but to what end? It is a game they can not "win" per se: sooner or later, even the most powerful priestess fails, whether because she wasn't sharp enough or because emotion or age dulled her edge. In fact, the best end a MATRON - the greatest of the great - can hope for is that one of her daughters would be cunning enough, in time, to outsmart her and kill her to take her place. And that's the best end. Yet all drow dance their deadly dance, stab and feint and twist and turn, year after year, century after century. They do it to survive, in part, but for another reason as well - because they like the power and prestige it brings now. It is strange, considering that priestesses are supposed to be wise, but perhaps it makes perfect sense to them - they're going to the Pits anyway, might as well have a good time on Toril (and earn a few brownie points for later on). In turn, it could work for Eilistraee as well - sure, a drow might find her dogma strange or even laughable, but most of those who take up her worship aren't exactly standard issue drow anyway.
Lolth is at the heart of all the problems for the Drow. Lolth set the rules of the game when it comes to winning the hearts and minds of the drow. If Eilistraee is unwilling to play the game, she cannot win.
I beg to differ. Lloth has set the game and the rules, and they favor HER. To try to play at her rules, just like every drow does, would be foolish. I think what Eilistraee does - and Vhaeraun doesn't (or at least not as much) is changing the game. When your opponent brings down a royal flush and all you have is a full house, the only way to win is to have made sure you were playing bridge.
I guess my problem boils down to the end game for each goddess.
Lolth's end game for the conflict is to kill her daughter.
Eilistraee's end game for the conflict is to redeem the drow.
Yet, it is clear that the source of the problem, the main barrier to redemption, is Lolth herself. She is the source of everything. Thus, for Eilistraee to accomplish her goal she must destroy Lolth. However, it is clear that Eilistraee has no intention on doing that. If that is the case, then how shall she win?
That makes the problem clear: Why would a drow side with Eilistraee when it seems her cause is doomed to fail? Why are you going to board a ship that is obviously sinking? From both a drow and non-drow perspective it seems folly to side with Eilistraee unless it's simply on moral grounds. If you are a drow and siding with Eilistraee because it's the "right thing to do," then do you really need her to "redeem" you from your evil ways?
That makes the problem clear: Why would a drow side with Eilistraee when it seems her cause is doomed to fail? Why are you going to board a ship that is obviously sinking? From both a drow and non-drow perspective it seems folly to side with Eilistraee unless it's simply on moral grounds. If you are a drow and siding with Eilistraee because it's the "right thing to do," then do you really need her to "redeem" you from your evil ways?
Because they don't see the cause as being doomed to fail would be the obvious answer. While the answer to that may seem clear to someone with a 3rd person perspective, I doubt that would be the case with someone who was actually involved in the matter.
As to siding with her because its the 'right thing' to do, then she has already fulfilled her purpose by giving the goodly one a focus and hope for salvation from drow society in the first place. That she even exists is hope for redemption, that some actually come to her is proof that its possible.
I'd disagree that she absolutely needed to destroy Lolth outright on any level though. If she manages to whittle away at her base of power with enough success, someone else is bound to come along and do it for her, considering the sheer number of enemies Lolth has accumulated over the years, be that daddykins or someone else outside of the Seldarine. I doubt she's stupid enough to think it will come any time soon, but its not like a few millenia is that long of a time to an elven deity, or really even one of their mortal kin (going by 3e stuff anyway).
Because they don't see the cause as being doomed to fail would be the obvious answer. While the answer to that may seem clear to someone with a 3rd person perspective, I doubt that would be the case with someone who was actually involved in the matter.
I'm not so sure of that. In order to even consider worshiping Eilistraee you need to have a problem with the current way things are going. Whatever that reason, it makes Lolth your enemy immediately. Now, you've lived you're entire life in Drow society and know what the spider-***** is capable of... you've even helped her do it. Why worship Eilistraee? If you're male why not go to her brother? Or why not worship Ghaunadaur or Kiaransalee? Those aren't the only deities open to you, of course, those are just the deities in the Dark Seldarine. What about Shar? She is an actual deity of the Underdark, Darkness, Secrets, Forgetfulness and Loss - all things you've either experienced or need and would pray to regularly.
And if you can't stomach evil deities, why not return to the worship of the Seldarine. Ask Corellon Larethian for redemption instead of Eilistraee. She wants you to return to the Seldarine anyhow, why not just do it? If Corellon is not willing to accept your redemption, then anything Eilistraee does is pointless.
As to siding with her because its the 'right thing' to do, then she has already fulfilled her purpose by giving the goodly one a focus and hope for salvation from drow society in the first place. That she even exists is hope for redemption, that some actually come to her is proof that its possible.
Why couldn't Corellon and the rest of the Seldarine do that? Almost all of them are good aligned. There is no reason they should not embrace a drow who is seeking to do the 'right thing' or 'redemption.' If they do not accept a drow as redeemed then anything Eilistraee does is irrelevant since her ultimate goal is to return them to the Seldarine.
I'd disagree that she absolutely needed to destroy Lolth outright on any level though. If she manages to whittle away at her base of power with enough success, someone else is bound to come along and do it for her, considering the sheer number of enemies Lolth has accumulated over the years, be that daddykins or someone else outside of the Seldarine.
You see that doesn't make sense. If she is waiting for someone else to kill Lolth then that is still her end game. Even if she does not land the killing blow, she is still hoping that her mother is killed. It is perfectly acceptable for her to use another deity to do her dirty work. Lolth would do the same if she could.
Yet, Eilistraee based on all the knowledge we have has made no moves to manipulate or persuade any other deity to do that.
I'm not so sure of that. In order to even consider worshiping Eilistraee you need to have a problem with the current way things are going.
Yep. Easy enough to have a problem with things.
Now, you've lived you're entire life in Drow society and know what the spider-***** is capable of... you've even helped her do it
Most certainly.
Why worship Eilistraee? If you're male why not go to her brother? Or why not worship Ghaunadaur or Kiaransalee? Those aren't the only deities open to you, of course, those are just the deities in the Dark Seldarine.
The answer is because of all the things we take for granted. The ability to sleep (or enter the trance, what is it called arrgh...) at night without worrying about your spouse slitting your throat is a remarkably appealing concept. Slime? Undead? They are still fey and have a natural desire to run under the stars. Eilistrae allows for that.
What about Shar? She is an actual deity of the Underdark, Darkness, Secrets, Forgetfulness and Loss - all things you've either experienced or need and would pray to regularly.
And that is the key. There is more to cause pain in Lolth's society than merely women dominating men. There is pain and suffering, the anguish over losing lovers and sacrificing children. Self torment. Those who turn from that would not turn to Shar, although hoping to forget has probably given her power if not explicit followers. But, most importantly, those things are turned away from because many find they need and want to pray for other things: love, family, appreciation, and freedom just to name a few.
And if you can't stomach evil deities, why not return to the worship of the Seldarine. Ask Corellon Larethian for redemption instead of Eilistraee.
Because most have been told that the surface elves hate them with a passion and will kill them on sight since they were children. It has probably happened many times. I could be wrong, but I don't think that Eilistrae is common knowledge among drow but they most certainly told of the 'evil' Seldarine. It seems to me that it would be easier to reach out to another distressed sibling than to an angry parent. Especially when the child does not realize the depths of its father's love. Think of her as a half-way house.
Also, a priestess of Eilistrae is trained to expect this hatred from even the drow they attempt to save. In t WotSQ Halisstra killed one such priestess who died still hoping she could save her. Such a priestess will put her life at risk because it is her most important purpose. A priest or priestess of Corellon has community responsibilities which supercede that of bringing instray drow. Doing so would threaten those communities because it is a long process to rehabilitate an evil drow. Not to mention that spiders are patient enough to wait for the right time.
But again, the purpose of a priestess of Eilistrae is to save the evil drow.
Yet, Eilistraee based on all the knowledge we have has made no moves to manipulate or persuade any other deity to do that.
Yet, before killing her brother she was a more simple and carefree spirit. She did not engage in that type of behavior because it was not what she was made of. She would hunt and kill but she was not a spider setting traps. Engaging others to kill Lolth would be very similar to Lolth engaging Gruumsh to kill Corellon.
I guess that is about all I have for now.
And that is the key. There is more to cause pain in Lolth's society than merely women dominating men. There is pain and suffering, the anguish over losing lovers and sacrificing children. Self torment. Those who turn from that would not turn to Shar, although hoping to forget has probably given her power if not explicit followers. But, most importantly, those things are turned away from because many find they need and want to pray for other things: love, family, appreciation, and freedom just to name a few.
I think you misunderstood me. When I said, "In order to even consider worshiping Eilistraee you need to have a problem with the current way things are going." I did not mean they'd turn to Eilistraee because they wanted to be good. On the contrary, I believe the vast and overwhelming majority of them would want to continue being evil. That is the problem Eilistraee has...
She is acting as a half-way house for drow who have, for all intents and purposes, turned away from evil already. What good is she then? Very little. The hard part has already been accomplished.
It is clear to everyone, and I would guess it is clear to the majority of Drow, even if they would not admit it to themselves, Lolth is at the heart of all their problems. If they were to turn away from her, and worship a more sensible god(dess) then they could have what they want. They could conquer and enslave the Underdark, and then rise from below to claim vengeance on the surface Elves. It is Lolth who holds them back from this, by pitting them against each other.
Lolth is the poison in the heart of every drow, and for most it is already too late to redeem them. You write of love, family, appreciation, and freedom - things that the drow know nothing about. They have no words for friend nor love. These are things drow do not understand, culturally.
How then do they turn to Eilistraee, a goddess who is completely alien to them? She presents them with concepts that they have never known. Even if they have felt love, they could not name what it was they felt because there was no word to name it. They could never call her friend because there is no word for that.
And all their lives they have known nothing but the abusive relationship they've had with Lolth. They are more apt, if they turn away from her if they view her as the source of their weakness, to fall into the arms of another god(dess) who is more accommodating to their already set world view.
Of all those I named Shar is the most likely candidate, if they even heard of her existence. They could continue having their female dominated society, keep their slaves, virtually nothing has to change... except they'd have to stop fighting each other. That is something Shar would never allow.
The difference between a Shar or Lolth society is small on the surface. They both promote the infliction of pain, suffering and loss on their followers. However, Lolth does it to see them suffer and wants them to suffer. Her inflictions are random and mindless, and often vengeful. Shar on the other hand is more focused. She wants them to become numb to the pain, to care for nothing but her, and the society as a whole would become much more focused around her than it would be under Lolth. Under Lolth much of the strife is a result of greed and power plays. Under Shar you do not gain power without the consent of the church. Where drow once battled each other chaotically, such battles would be largely controlled by the church. Things would be less violent and deadly, and become more political using secrets to control one another... and should one drow murder another to advance themselves without the consent of the church they'd best hope that the church does not find out. Sharran are forbidden to better their lot in life without the consent of ranking clergy.
So in the end... if given a choice, who are they most likely to turn too? Eilistraee who is alien to them, who speaks of moonlight, love and friendship - things most drow have never seen and cannot convey in words? Or Shar a deity of secrets, the underdark, darkness and loss? A deity who would allow them to become more unified, better empower them, and largely keep their way of life?
It seems like it would be a simple choice for most drow, because as you conveyed in your words leaving their evil ways behind is a process... something that Eilistraee does not do very well. Unless her followers are capturing drow and forcing them to convert, which is somewhat silly.
It is the reason I believed the Masked Lady was more suited for Eilistraee. Once she became the Masked Lady it was easier for her to embrace all drow - good, evil or neutral. Only once she has them free from Lolth's web can she begin to redeem and save them.
Through divinations a wise eilistraean can time the moment of their revelation to potential worshippers to coinside with a surface raid. When on the mesmerizing moonlit forrest glades the land itself will be the sworddancers biggest weapon to win over the soul of a drow. Some drow can't deny they appreciate their ancestral forests as beatiful things.
Dreams sent by Eilistraee are another powerful tool to shape the mind and make a drow more appreciative to the surface. A "haunted" drow might break towards more cautious and reserved behaviour if they have developed a liking to those positive respites from the common drow life. He might even develop a longing for freespirited song and dance.
I'm not so sure of that. In order to even consider worshiping Eilistraee you need to have a problem with the current way things are going. Whatever that reason, it makes Lolth your enemy immediately. Now, you've lived you're entire life in Drow society and know what the spider-***** is capable of... you've even helped her do it. Why worship Eilistraee? If you're male why not go to her brother? Or why not worship Ghaunadaur or Kiaransalee? Those aren't the only deities open to you, of course, those are just the deities in the Dark Seldarine. What about Shar? She is an actual deity of the Underdark, Darkness, Secrets, Forgetfulness and Loss - all things you've either experienced or need and would pray to regularly.
And if you can't stomach evil deities, why not return to the worship of the Seldarine. Ask Corellon Larethian for redemption instead of Eilistraee. She wants you to return to the Seldarine anyhow, why not just do it? If Corellon is not willing to accept your redemption, then anything Eilistraee does is pointless.
Well, going by the presumption that you're a neutral or good aligned drow, I would say that you probably did have problems with the society you find yourself in. As to why one would worship Eilistraee... why not? Something as simple as finding her dogma appealing is more than enough reason to worship her. That she may or may not have a hope of ever reaching her goals doesn't negate the hope or message behind that goal... I would think most beings would understand that divine goals aren't likely to be reached in their lifetimes, so I don't see the hopelessly lost cause angle as being that important to most of her followers. If you're that much into despair, then Eilistraee isn't going to appeal in the first place since you're already resigned to your fate and have no hope of a better way. To reduce her philosophy to a simplistic short-term goal orientation is to undercut the entire premise of hope and redemption... its not supposed to be an easy path.
Why couldn't Corellon and the rest of the Seldarine do that? Almost all of them are good aligned. There is no reason they should not embrace a drow who is seeking to do the 'right thing' or 'redemption.' If they do not accept a drow as redeemed then anything Eilistraee does is irrelevant since her ultimate goal is to return them to the Seldarine.
They could... and as far as I'm aware, they have. But I think you're missing the relevance of Eilistraee as a link between their current situation and their less vile past. She's the daughter of Lolth and Corellon, and represents a transitional link between the Seldarine and the drow, and so is more understandable and comfortable than the Seldarine might be. She is in some respects analogous to a Jesus figure for the Drow, a gateway to redemption through her father. Her path hasn't been an easy one, just as yours won't be, so its easier to comprehend and identify with her than it is with the Seldarine. At least with her they have some context... not really that true with the rest of the Seldarine.
You see that doesn't make sense. If she is waiting for someone else to kill Lolth then that is still her end game. Even if she does not land the killing blow, she is still hoping that her mother is killed. It is perfectly acceptable for her to use another deity to do her dirty work. Lolth would do the same if she could.
Yet, Eilistraee based on all the knowledge we have has made no moves to manipulate or persuade any other deity to do that.
I doubt she is waiting around for someone to off her actually. That would be matricide, which is generally frowned upon in polite society. Which is the point. Playing by Lolths rules isn't going to help her if she wants to break the drow away from her in a meaningful way. Its the one thing she can't afford to do, since it only "proves" her mother right and discredits her beliefs and teachings. As I think you've said, being good is more than just being expedient and pragmatic.
I think you misunderstood me. When I said, "In order to even consider worshiping Eilistraee you need to have a problem with the current way things are going." I did not mean they'd turn to Eilistraee because they wanted to be good. On the contrary, I believe the vast and overwhelming majority of them would want to continue being evil. That is the problem Eilistraee has...
I believe there is so much wrong in this quote that I hardly know where to begin.
So...
She is acting as a half-way house for drow who have, for all intents and purposes, turned away from evil already. What good is she then? Very little. The hard part has already been accomplished.
They have turned from evil. Still, no one trusts them. I actually mentioned that in my post:
A priest or priestess of Corellon has community responsibilities which supercede that of bringing in stray drow. Doing so would threaten those communities because it is a long process to rehabilitate an evil drow. Not to mention that spiders are patient enough to wait for the right time.
This can be as true for a priest(ess) of any deity and not just Corellon. In other words, although they have turned from Lolth they are still alone and in need of guidance which is available nowhere else.
It is clear to everyone, and I would guess it is clear to the majority of Drow, even if they would not admit it to themselves, Lolth is at the heart of all their problems.
If they won't admit it to themselves, it most certainly is not clear to them...
If they were to turn away from her, and worship a more sensible god(dess) then they could have what they want. They could conquer and enslave the Underdark, and then rise from below to claim vengeance on the surface Elves. It is Lolth who holds them back from this, by pitting them against each other.
No, it is Lolth who has made them as strong as they are. Change the dynamics and change the results. Different dynamics will produce different drow. A better argument might be that it is unrealistic (Better is in the eye of the beholder here because I am bringing realism into fantasy.
) for a society like those of the drow to function and survive. But, there is nothing to say that changing to a more 'sensible' goddess would change the end result for their civilization. It might reshuffle the cards but that is all I see happening.You write of love, family, appreciation, and freedom - things that the drow know nothing about. They have no words for friend nor love. These are things drow do not understand, culturally.
I believe you miss an important point about drow culture.
They caulderize those feelings out of the drow. There is nothing that says they are born unable to perceive them.
This is how I see drow society.
Betrayal is the key.
Before the possibility of such notions are caulderized from their brains use is made of the naturally tendency for youth to explore all forms of emotions. Can you not see an older female drow coaxing her younger sister into making her 'boyfriend' feels as if he matters to her so that the betrayal will be all the sweeter. A spider makes a point of attacking the unsuspecting victim. Of course, the feeling of betrayal reinforces the pain and is part of the caulderization.
This can take the form of betraying friends as well as lovers. Parents and children too. Eventually, it is learned that the easiest way to avoid the pain of betrayal is to trust no one. This must be learned. It is learned by having trust betrayed. You must first trust for your trust to be betrayed.
I believe that is the key to drow leaving Lolth. They may often work to gain the trust of an individual so they can betray the individual. Somewhere in the middle they actually begin to place a value on that trust. Then comes the time to betray that trust. What to do? Still most often they will commit the betrayal. But still drow fall for it because it is often easy to convince people to believe what the want to see, perhaps only second to convincing people to see what they expect to see. That is the war of betrayal.
How then do they turn to Eilistraee, a goddess who is completely alien to them? She presents them with concepts that they have never known. Even if they have felt love, they could not name what it was they felt because there was no word to name it. They could never call her friend because there is no word for that.
Is it so difficult to believe that they will want to believe in something else? As stated before it is a good thing to go to bed knowing (as much as you really can anyway...) that you will not be assassinated in your sleep. Is it so difficult to believe some drow may long for tat feeling?
And all their lives they have known nothing but the abusive relationship they've had with Lolth. They are more apt, if they turn away from her if they view her as the source of their weakness, to fall into the arms of another god(dess) who is more accommodating to their already set world view.
There are a lot of things that can go into what one might find sccomodating. Drizzt found the life of a ranger along with the beliefs of Mielikki (what she stands for more than actually her...). Is it so difficult to believe that drow who are told all the other races are inferior would not find a drow goddess with drow priestesses accomodating on many levels. This also adds to male drow finding it easier...
Of all those I named Shar is the most likely candidate, if they even heard of her existence. They could continue having their female dominated society, keep their slaves, virtually nothing has to change... except they'd have to stop fighting each other. That is something Shar would never allow.
Drow are raised to be chaotic and revel in their own existence. Shar offers the void. Not much their to revel in. Shar also has powerful male clerics: see the Netherese prince whose name I forgot... Why would they have to stop fighting each other? I believe if you read the books about Erevis Cale and the Netherese they did familial assassinating. no infighting? All evil forces infight. That is why they don't win.
and should one drow murder another to advance themselves without the consent of the church they'd best hope that the church does not find out. Sharran are forbidden to better their lot in life without the consent of ranking clergy.
Of course, one who could keep such a secret would actually end up i Shar's favor for doing so. Not so different from Lolth, IMO.
But more to the point is that since devotion to Shar is the key she would not disallow male priests and that would destroy the bit about females retaining their power.
And again, drow are fey who revel in themselves, often with reckless abandon. Embracing the null seems to have little draw for fey, IMO.
So in the end... if given a choice, who are they most likely to turn too? Eilistraee who is alien to them, who speaks of moonlight, love and friendship - things most drow have never seen and cannot convey in words? Or Shar a deity of secrets, the underdark, darkness and loss? A deity who would allow them to become more unified, better empower them, and largely keep their way of life?
Drow have known betrayal and how difficult it makes life. eilistrae offers escape from the pain of betrayal. Shar offers loss which is something they would wish to escape. Shar offers unity? Why would a drow want more restrictions placed upon them. Unity places restrictions in the form of responsibility. Trust gives restrictions in the form of responsibility but has more (or at least as much) to offer. I do not believe that following a strict hierarchy where you must gain consent for actions is empowering. It is the opposite. Drow are empowered to do what they want under Lolth. They would leave Lolth to change their way of life.
It seems like it would be a simple choice for most drow, because as you conveyed in your words leaving their evil ways behind is a process... something that Eilistraee does not do very well. Unless her followers are capturing drow and forcing them to convert, which is somewhat silly.
Yes, it would be simple to choose Eilistrae. They may not have to leave evil behind to leave Lolth but no one has said that drow can't worship other evil gods. Eilistrae gives them an opportunity to leave behind the pain of betrayal and live in a larger world. Her priestesses do very fine, thankyou.
There is good reason for her to exist. That does not mean I had a problem with the Masked Lady though.
If you talk about substitute (near) divine powers for the drow, think of archfiends or demon lords.
Not really wanting to join a debate that runs for ages ... but Shar is no goddess for the drow.
-Ignoring the Drow cultists that she already has around the Thay area, and (possibly formerly) in Ched Nesad, sure.
I think it is safe to say that the majority of Drow are not going to worship a deity primarily worshiped by humans. It is more likely that if Shar wanted a larger following among the drow she'd create a fake cult under a different name. Like any salesperson she is going to leave out the bits that make her unappealing to them.
It is written in F&P that there are hundreds (thousands?) of false cults dedicated to deities that were in fact really Shar. She'd certainly appear to the Drow as a drow deity... and if she was really interested in knocking off Lolth, she would have struck hard and forcefully during Lolth's silence. She could have taken over entire cities by simply swaying Drow priestesses who lacked divine power.
Out of all the deities in the Realms I can see Shar being the most successful in stealing worshipers away from Lolth, provided she does the above. The reason is because their way of life and current power structure is not overly threatened.
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I'll answer the rest when I get more time, but at this point I feel like I am simply repeating myself. Suffice it to say, I do not think a good aligned deity has any mass appeal among the drow. That is the root of our disagreements, and what I am looking for: mass appeal. If Eilistraee only wants to be a fringe deity, then that's great. She does a good job there on the fringe, but she'll never ever gain mass appeal without making some moral concessions.
-Ignoring the Drow cultists that she already has around the Thay area, and (possibly formerly) in Ched Nesad, sure.
Not ignoring them, just don't see them as a threat to Lolth's or any other drow deities' dominion. Every race will have its proportion of stray worshippers, there are even drow cultists of Ibrandul (now most likely if unwittingly Shar), beholder cults, Mask and all. But we're speaking (at least I assumed this) of large scale populations and faiths which would appeal to them. And IMHO, Shar does not belong into this portfolio. Her aims are quite simple not on par with the aims of the drow (matrons).
In my opinion, a Lolth-less drow society would work "best" in the current Clan / House system (i.e. each one vying for power) if they have (as described in e.g. Pathfinder or the Green Ronin setting) factions (houses, guilds, societies etc.) lead by powerful wizards, clerics or the like, with some of these clerics drawing power from the same or different faiths. Especially if one - for a second - ignores the monotheism in the current FR drow city format. You could easily envisage drow clerics of Dispater or Shaktari (fighter societies), of Glasya, Belial or Malcanthet (various guilds, assassins et al), Rhyxali or Grazz't (assassin / rogue guilds, information brokers) or Asmodeus (tyrants, domiants, house leaders).
In my opinion, a Lolth-less drow society would work "best" in the current Clan / House system (i.e. each one vying for power) if they have (as described in e.g. Pathfinder or the Green Ronin setting) factions (houses, guilds, societies etc.) lead by powerful wizards, clerics or the like, with some of these clerics drawing power from the same or different faiths. Especially if one - for a second - ignores the monotheism in the current FR drow city format. You could easily envisage drow clerics of Dispater or Shaktari (fighter societies), of Glasya, Belial or Malcanthet (various guilds, assassins et al), Rhyxali or Grazz't (assassin / rogue guilds, information brokers) or Asmodeus (tyrants, domiants, house leaders).
That doesn't sound right to me.
The majority of drow practice monolatrism (the acknowledgement of the existence of other deities, while believing that only one deity is truly worthy of worship) for a very good reason. It is necessary for their survival. Lolth is not only the force that causes the problems in drow society she is also the single force that unites them. Her faith and her church is the only thing that stands between the complete destruction of the Drow... by their own hands.
That's not to say Drow society could not eventually support multiple deities, however it would inevitably be more stable than it currently is and there would have to be some type of transition phase. In the end it would look very different than a Lolth dominated Drow society.