Didn't that god or goddess have teachings? Didn't they have lessons the masses needed to learn? Where is the faith, the loyalty? What about the resources the church had? Land, money, power, influence and the like normally don’t just disappear.
Does divine regicide happen so often that there is just a system in place now where you show up at the temple only to find it boarded up and little note on it saying, "Mystra died again, temple out of service." The common people just shrug and go about other business? The spell plague description on the website doesn’t say anywhere, “Oh and all her clerics died and the church.
Obviously this would be more important if you needed the deity to exist to get all that fancy divine power, but with 4th edition rules that connection isn't there anymore. You wield your own radiant powers and you could be ordained by other clerics who also still exist
You'd think that if you dedicated your life to someone like Elistraee, Mystra or whoever you and your order would presently be working your cleric ass off trying to bring her back into existence. That sounds like a pretty interesting and epic quest honestly. You’d think they’d still probably be around just waiting for her to come back out of loyalty if nothing else.
Would not Elistraee’s followers still work at bringing more and more drow out of the sway of Lolth? To simply say, oh well she’s dead but her followers are regular elves now so they’re just going to completely ignore her messages and teaching and move on to worshipping someone else.
That’s not to say that people can’t switch or go along with the things, but you’d think there would be a lot more discussion about things. If your deity stepped up to another spot, then you’d probably follow along, sure but it seems improbable that whole religions would just end like they seem to have.
I don't know, hopefully I got my point across. :/
However, being brave and having studied FR deities and religions a lot, I will take a shot.
1. There probably is usually a lingering effect of the temples, but in the most recent case, it has been a long time, almost 100 years.
2. Putting this delicately, in fantasy worlds like the Realms, deities prove their existence routinely by divine powers granted to their followers. They supply unmistakeable miracles on a regular occurance. High level priests may talk to the deity, or at least subordinates, and if they have the right skills, they can go visit them. (Back in LC days, my cleric kept a score card on which deities he had seen and number of times. Tymora was the winner, I think, with 6 or 7. ) So when they die, the change is dramatic.
3. Other gods might confirm what happened. ;)
4. Not to say there are not grabs for land, buildings, treasure, etc. Probably lots of that going on. :D
5. Other gods tend to pick up the portfolio promptly in the Realms. (exception for magic from Mystra) I would guess that when Tyr died, Torm probably moved in on many of the temples if they were in new locations or better than the existing temples to Torm. :P
6. You could have an epic quest to restore a god. As I recall that is what happened with Bane. (I seem to recall it coming up in LC as well.) If the WotC Story Team decide the followers should do that and succeed, then they will. If they decide otherwise, then they won't. The NPC followers are not really possessing free will, after all.
The LFR staff did not design the world, we just live in it.
Keith
Didn't that god or goddess have teachings? Didn't they have lessons the masses needed to learn? Where is the faith, the loyalty? What about the resources the church had? Land, money, power, influence and the like normally don’t just disappear.
Does divine regicide happen so often that there is just a system in place now where you show up at the temple only to find it boarded up and little note on it saying, "Mystra died again, temple out of service." The common people just shrug and go about other business? The spell plague description on the website doesn’t say anywhere, “Oh and all her clerics died and the church.
Obviously this would be more important if you needed the deity to exist to get all that fancy divine power, but with 4th edition rules that connection isn't there anymore. You wield your own radiant powers and you could be ordained by other clerics who also still exist
You'd think that if you dedicated your life to someone like Elistraee, Mystra or whoever you and your order would presently be working your cleric ass off trying to bring her back into existence. That sounds like a pretty interesting and epic quest honestly. You’d think they’d still probably be around just waiting for her to come back out of loyalty if nothing else.
Would not Elistraee’s followers still work at bringing more and more drow out of the sway of Lolth? To simply say, oh well she’s dead but her followers are regular elves now so they’re just going to completely ignore her messages and teaching and move on to worshipping someone else.
That’s not to say that people can’t switch or go along with the things, but you’d think there would be a lot more discussion about things. If your deity stepped up to another spot, then you’d probably follow along, sure but it seems improbable that whole religions would just end like they seem to have.
I don't know, hopefully I got my point across. :/ (This is a repost of my thread from the LFR board)
I am more curious when it makes more sense for those followers to still be dedicated. Probably more Elistraee then Mystra at this point. I've got a joking theory that Shar secretly is Mystra, only a corrupted version that was created because of the shadow weave, and someday we'll find out that some designer had an amazingly uncleaver idea and that's what happened.
There are long lived races in the world and written histories, so 100 years for a lot of people in the Realms wouldn't be as long as 100 years are to us. Elistraee's followers were rewarded, but they still have the same mission and reason to exist since there are still Drow in the world. Unless one of her tenants as a goddess was something about "The Grand Quota" or something like that.
I'm just seeing things that wouldn't properly emulate the way I'd see a church going out of existence and it's ruining my sense of belief much in the way people were harping on letting artificers and warforged and drow and so forth.
Your soul goes to the Fugue Plain, or whatever Kelemvor is calling it these days, and since you don't have a god to go to you get to be cemented into the wall of the Faithless, to spend eternity slowly becoming part of the wall.
Kind of an incentive to switch, if your patron god or goddess is suddenly dead.
-karma
Yeah, I know what you mean, and I agree with you 100%.
I can agree with some of the "switching" that goes on for Clerics. Like after the Time of Troubles Waukeen was "missing" and many of her followers believed her to be dead. Lliira began to hold Waukeen's portfolios for her "in trust" should she ever return, and when she did Lliira gave them back. Thus, many followers of Waukeen temporarily switched over to worship Lliira. That's understandable.
But in situations like... Vhaeraun dies and most of his followers immediately switch over to Eilistraee don't make much since. However, this precedent has been set for a long time. For example when Myrkul died during the Time of Troubles, his followers switched to Cyric, and then when Cyric lost the portfolios of death and the dead, they switched over to Kelemvor. Some of the more necromantic types switched over to Velsharoon.
But in general I find the "god hopping" ridiculous, and it is something I tend to ignore in my Forgotten Realms. If a deity were to die, his or her followers would not automatically switch to the deity who killed their god.
What happens would largely depend upon how it played out. For example, I think it's believable that followers of Ibrandul now worship Shar. However, they do this unknowingly because no one knows that Ibrandul is dead. So in these situations there might be a reorganizational shift in the church, but this would be handed down from the deity and no one would realize that the god is dead. In most cases I believe this is the best way to handle it.
On the other hand, should the followers realize that their god is dead, slain by another deity, some might switch. Yes. However, the church would likely dissolve into a number of different factions, unable to accept the truth and a number of different heresies would form. Many would take the Servant of the Fallen feat. Some might switch to the deity who killed their own with heretical teachings of that deity - twisting that deity to better reflect the one they previously worshiped. More than a handful would certainly take up arms against the faithful of the enemy deity who slaughtered their own. In the end the whole situation would just be a bloody chaotic mess.
I tend to think of it a "on Toril as it is in heaven, in heaven as it is on Toril" kind of way. That is, divine events are reflected in events played out in the real world, and events in the world are given mythic stories for the gods. In fact, I see gods as abstract forces that are personified by their believers; deities are very much at the mercy of their faithful.
For example, when Moander infected Tyche and caused her to split into Tymora and Beshaba, I see it as a case of the religion of Tyche having a schism between opposing factions, purging itself of heretical elements that focused on "bad" and "rotten" luck, and finally splitting into two (with Tyche being renamed Tymora, and rediscovering an old alias/aspect of Tyche called Beshaba).
So then when gods merge, this is caused by close alliances between the churchs of those deities. Disputes between gods are caused by the clashes of their faithful (say Tempus fights Garagos, their two churches had a battle). A heresy within the church splits the god as believers breakaway. And so on. Tales are told about the deities to explain events on Toril.
To attempt to explain the Siamorphe-Tyr-Tymora-Helm-Sune-Ilmater thing at the end of GHotR, then that would be the result of a messy jumble of politics and broken alliances between the churches during the Tethyr-Calimshan clash. Cyric and Shar's assassination of Mystra would really be a devastating attack by their agents upon her high-ranking priests and the disruption of the church.
Except, of course, we rarely if ever get shown the consequences of these things in the course of the novels, and it breaks down when the events depicted make no sense, and out-of-nowhere events like the Time Of Troubles or the Spellplague arise.
Exactly. It is precisely why in 4E I advocate strongly that the gods become more mystical, abstract and unknown. No more novels about the gods. I love religion in the Realms, it's my most favorite part of the setting, but I'd rather have those disputes handled on the mortal plane rather than the divine.
I don't advocate "Eberron Gods" where no one knows if they exist or not, just... gods similar to how Ed envisioned them. You'd get difficult to interpret dream visions, and maybe strange manifestations from time to time. However, overall, there would be no god phone where you could just ring the god up and ask a question.
A layer of abstraction is needed.
Indeed the events of mortals should get a divine explanation preached by the clerics of the gods who hold the portfolios of the events in question. But it also goes the other way around. In Toril the gods really can effect one antother, and planar or stellar constallations might change as a result. Spitefull gods such as Auril and Kossuth constantly try to gain influence even without human worshippers. Worshippers are but one part of their influence.
So this all begs the question of what happens in 4e. after all, Clerics and paladins no longer receive their powers directly from the deities. However, with the spellplague and the death of Mystra (for example), there likely aren't any Mystra faithful around able to perform the ordainment to grant someone powers. They most likely burnt to crispy critters in the plague. heck, even Elminster lost his Chosen of Mystra powers... although he's sill immortal. (someone needs to kill him...)
As for Elistraee... *shrug* I think it's more like "your God died and now your moving on" as opposed to "your God died and you're an apostate if you don't still worship them." Upon the death of their God the faithful probably wail and gnash their teeth and it probably takes a while to mourn and move on to another deity. It's not like they're going "Oh, well, Elistraee died. Guess I'll start attending Corellon's services." :D I do think though, that with the death of a god, that yes, the faith would pretty much collapse in on itself. This really only affects the clergy. Most laypeople offer prayers to multiple gods.
In a game world, followers have tangible proof that their god exists and protects them. So what happens when a god stops granting those visible effects? I'd wager ALOT of people would go to the temples of the gods who /do/. This is especially true in a Pantheistic world where the commoner is used to making prayers and whatnot to multiple gods anyway.
Not saying you're not raising a good point - you are. In my games, there are remnants of the churchs of dead gods. They simply have no clerics or paladins. People are capable of faith and so some do carry on those teachings, but I think that's the abnormality in a pantheistic world with daily divine granted powers.
@Asoka, I agree 100% with you that when a deity is the source of your powers you would move to another in the event of their death. However, in 4E you no longer receive power directly from the deity. Instead, you can be ordained and invested with the ability to cast spells. In cases like that, I could envision a high priest (or priestess) maintaining the religion themselves and perpetuating the church on their own. Add into the mix the ability to become a lich or other form of life (unlife) that is immortal, and you would never need a deity at all. Taking that into account Koushiro, I could definitely see the church of Mystra as remaining active and perhaps experiencing a huge period of growth as they helped the masses deal with the spellplague and relearn the system of magic. After all, the guide has Elminster referring to Mystra as the vanished Goddess, not the dead one. Maybe the church is just awaiting her return?
Or think of it this way - people worship an ideal, a philosophy. They follow whatever god best supports that ideal, much like people in democracies vote for the candidate that best represents them. They may miss a dead politician (or god) but the reality is that there is no reason to vote for (or worship) a dead one.
Allen.
After all, the guide has Elminster referring to Mystra as the vanished Goddess, not the dead one. Maybe the church is just awaiting her return?
What I'M waiting for is for one day Selune to go visit Shar, a little girl holding Her hand...at which point the re-born Mystral looks at here, the blinding light of chaotic magic blazing in Her eyes and almost purrs "My darling Dark Mother...we need to TALK!" *insert large flash of light and an explosion, followed by LOTS of screaming* :D
Of course, that probably wont happen....but one can always dream
There should definitely be at least a few holdouts though. I look forward to meeting some in a future module :D
In terms of Faiths & Avatars et al deity entries: Other Manifestations = divine spell effects; servant creatures = summons and planar allies. Okay, this kind of fails at the old tales about avatars appearing during historical events to save their worshippers. Maybe its a lost epic spell, Summon Avatar, or something.
Okay, granted I once had Mystra's blue hand appear and point to the Macguffins that the PCs needed to thwart the big bad, though this was in a save-the-world situation which I was getting desperate in (I was the DM). But even this was in response to a Detect Magic cast by the Wizard, who was trying to work out what to do with the object; Mystra only manifested because it was arcane magic, and because it was part of the PCs personal story.
Back on topic, I had a lying priestess of Leira NPC recently. The question of Leira's fate came up in IC conversation, and for the NPC, the life or death of Leira was irrelevent. The goddess of lies could easily have faked her death (to a twit like Cyric, of course), or she never existed, whatever. That simply wasn't a concern. (The NPC had the Servant Of The Fallen feat to make it legit.)
You're trying to start a philisophical argument about a game world. Who says it has to make sense?
Even in a fictional setting, if things are totally off the wall it breaks down. You think there aren't NPC, or PCs for that matter, int he Realms that Philosophize? What we're talking about isn't totally off the wall of course. When i run a game world, I try to infuse it with a sense of realism, having NPCs react in a logical fashion. Sure, there will be some diehard worshippers that won't be able to give up that their god is dead. Most of them will grieve and move on.
There's a great satrical novel called Towing Jehovah that posits "What if God existed and he died?" What would people do when that knowledge came to light?
Granted, in a pantheistic setting such reactions would be much different than a monotheistic one. You probably wouldn't have people falling into debauchery because the one who judges them into their afterlife is suddenly gone replaced by no one else. kelemvor is still around.
Or think of it this way - people worship an ideal, a philosophy. They follow whatever god best supports that ideal.
I think you hit the nail on the head there.
When a God dies, their priests get the magic because they're magically connected to him. In our world, we have people who claim mystic communion with God. Well, everyone gets that in the Realms and would know when it was gone.
6. You could have an epic quest to restore a god. As I recall that is what happened with Bane. (I seem to recall it coming up in LC as well.)
Is that how it happened? Because I never heard of this. I know there was an adventure in Ruins of Zhentil Keep, the outcome of which would determine Iyachtu Xvim's rank. But there was an adventure which touched on bringing Bane back?
Is that how it happened? Because I never heard of this. I know there was an adventure in Ruins of Zhentil Keep, the outcome of which would determine Iyachtu Xvim's rank. But there was an adventure which touched on bringing Bane back?
-No, there wasn't. In a few novels (Finder's Bane, for instance), various Banites believed that completing various rituals would return Bane to life, but in the end, they either did not work, or they were thwarted. The FRCG is the only source that talks about Bane's return.
Having this moved to Realmslore.
-Thank you. I'll rescind that request I put in to Web, then.
In other words, Bane only returns after every last one of his surviving followers is dead or converted.
In 3.5 the feat Faith of the Fallen (Lost Empires of Faerun) allowed priests to gain their spells from a dead god. I would assume something similar would be possible in 4e.
-If, in 4e, a Cleric/Paladin's power isn't dependent on the deity itself, but instead, is dependent on some sort of mystical anointing ceremony performed by the church of a deity, that a deity is dead or not matters little.
-If, in 4e, a Cleric/Paladin's power isn't dependent on the deity itself, but instead, is dependent on some sort of mystical anointing ceremony performed by the church of a deity, that a deity is dead or not matters little.
Provided they can either find another worshiper who knows the ordainment ritual, or find it somewhere carved in stone, as it were.
Provided they can either find another worshiper who knows the ordainment ritual, or find it somewhere carved in stone, as it were.
-The former, being an organized church, shouldn't be too difficult.
The ability to ordain came after the spellplague. In a home game, do whatever you want. I think it would be rather difficult. Even if some of the Mystran clergy were around (it has been 100 years), who's to say those jedi-like few would know the ordainemnt ritual?
It's reasonable to assume most became crispy critters in the spellplague when Mystra was killed.
-I don't find anything in the canon about that, so there's no reason to assume that such a culling took place.
Even if some of the Mystran clergy were around (it has been 100 years), who's to say those jedi-like few would know the ordainemnt ritual?
-What's to say that it's something difficult? A tap on the shoulder, may the power of X be with you, and bada bing, bada boom, you're all set. Hell, you don't necessarily even need someone from your own faith to ordain you. A Cleric of Torm can ordain you, and once anointed, there's nothing stopping your from spreading the word of Tyr, except perhaps some angry Tormish, or perhaps an angelic servitor of Torm in the extreme.
But in situations like... Vhaeraun dies and most of his followers immediately switch over to Eilistraee don't make much since.
Not to be argumentative but in the story line this actually did sort of make sense. The two faiths merged, but for the entirety of that merge there was debate about whether Vhaeraun or Eilistraee was the victorious party. One god took over the other's followers but at least to the followers (and not in this case the omniscient readers) they were still mostly worshipping their own god. They were just unsure whether it was Eilistraee who absorbed Vhaeraun or vice versa and each faith was holding out that it was their own god that was victorious.
On a side note. I found it a very interesting story line really. I always found it odd that Vhaeraun's and Eilistraee's faiths shared a common goal (bring drow back to the surface) and a common enemy (Lolth) and yet they were always so at odds. I had always thought that eventually the two siblings would team up and overthrow the mother, but instead we got this merging thing. It was really interesting whie it lasted. Too bad it didn't last longer. The combined Masked Lady had some real possibilities.
I would love to include "sects" or "orders" of worshippers of fallen gods within the structure of a living god's worship.
It's getting to the point where I'm starting to wonder why you'd even bother making a character in the Realms if all the good juicy stuff only happens to the gods. Never has atheism felt so needed.
Maybe a better question would be why do the people in the world even bother with religion?
(A) The physical benefits (ie, Magic and blessings)
(B) Tradition (ie, Everyone in the village of X worships Z)
(C) Circumstance (X was lost in the woods, found his way out, and began worshiping Tymore because of his good luck)
(D) Personal Gain (ie, Fzoul Chembryl)
(E) All of the reasons in the real world why people do it
(F) To preserve their souls (ie, not getting sucking into the Wall)
-That's be (A), but reading the word 'physical' literally. ;)
ah. well said
Crazy.
Could you imagine being like a couple of hundred year old elf in the Realms though? You'd probably have gone through like 8 religions by that point and who knows what else.
Crazy.
-Or, you still consider yourself a patron/patroness of the same religion you've always had.
-Elves, anyway, are much more 'spiritual' and 'pantheistic' than 'religious' and 'monotheistic', anyway. In other words, they thank all of the Seldarine, and worship the entire pantheon.
And now I have a character concept.