The realms were repaired and reinvigorated with the switch to 4e.
And then someone stumbled and dropped the newly Realms on the way to the printers with no time to piece it together again so they had to turn in the broken pieces?
The realms were repaired and reinvigorated with the switch to 4e.
And then someone stumbled and dropped the newly Realms on the way to the printers with no time to piece it together again so they had to turn in the broken pieces?
lots of good ideas, and poorly implanted ideas, made for broken pieces.
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that two people have chosen to spam my thread to death.
This thread is hardly spammed to death, really not that bad at all, people are staying largely on topic, and people just voicing their opinions, not really spammed, not yet any way.
But yeah peoples going to have different opinions about 4e, or 3e or whatever. Personally i hated the transition from 2e to 3e the most, why you may ask? They didnt explain anything! all kinds of stuff changed, the Realms actually got significantly smaller, but nowhere do they try to rationalize how that happened, I mean i realize its a fictitious setting, but stuff like that just bugs me. Im not happy with all the changes that they did in 4e or 2e for that matter, but atleast they had an in-game explanation why stuff changed, instead of just going oh this is all different now and were just supposed to pretend that its always been like that.
But any way you dont really need to do time travel to "fix" things, you could just easily say that things happened alot differently in your Realms, but the time travel thing might be a fun adventure to run. Ive run a few of those myself, but it got real messy pretty quick, i should have never let the players have access to the time conduit spell!
I think youre being way too negative here.
Im sorry if you dont find any of my statements constructive, im just saying time travel can get really wiggy in a campaign, im speaking from expierence here, just trying to help out really.
I think it's a neat idea for those not simply wanting/willing to handwave 'it never happened' on the 4E Realms changes, especially if your group is anti-4E Realms - You can be proactive and 'fix' things.
For extra fun, have at least one PC who was *there* before the Spellplague and *remembers* how it used to be. Not only do you have even more incentive to fix the past, but you also get the ever-fun 'avoid your past self' bits.
And I agree, guys, all this naysaying is in fact spam at this point. You voiced your disagreeal. Once was enough. Continuing to whine about it is in fact spam. That's what SotFR is for.
And any way this is the Realmslore section, so really this whole thread is spam, it doesnt belong here. Realmslore is for "offical" Realms stuff, which this thread aint. It should be in Running the Realms.
Ok im done ranting now, you can all go back to hating of the 4e realms.
though they might forgo it in the case of stoping the spell palgue, and on top of that, PCs traveling back to do that ,would not be able to travel back, as they might find a clone of themselves already there starting a paradox. They'd have to start a life in the Past.
I started reading Cloak of Shadow's Book #2 of the Shadow of the Avatar's series. Guess what, on page 3 It has Bane plotting on how to steal the Weave from Mystra, or to imprison her to gain control of the Weave.
So I started thinking about how, Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, Velshalaroon, and Shar could in theory plot to Kill Mystra, and the other Gods of Magic, then split the spoils.(Like that would really happen
). Shar's trump card would be Shade Enclave, and the Shadow Weave.
This could be the Times of Troubles, or the begining of the Spellplague.
Not spam just being(or trying to be) helpful. Use what you like, or none at all. Have fun guys.
Of course you've got all the evil divine powers looking to find the clues and anoint themselves the new god(s) of magic, which is where the fun really gets going.
Thank you for sharing the timeline with us!
Anyone have any homebrew stats on remaking Eilistraee? I wanted to bring her back in my campaign and I'm interested in seeing what people have put together for stats, powers, etc.
Are we talking about stats for Eilistraee or stats for Eilistraee's followers? If it's the former, I'd say no. Simply put, they (WotC) should steer very very far away from statting out Deities. It just gets too ridiculous.
Now if you were looking for homebrew stuff such as Paragon Paths, items, rituals, and Divinity Feat powers for Eilistraee, then i'd gladly help you out. Stuff could be easily converted from the Champions of Valor book where she had some cool fighter sub-levels and some rituals that could be given to her clergy.
And she's still very much alive and well in my campaign setting (having never read the LP series) so I have no idea how she died or why.
As for the alternate timeline, I think Journhast has a pretty interesting idea but I'd have to second the other's thoughts about time-travel in general. The only reason they might not go back farther than the spellplague is because they think everything up to that point in Faerun's history seems normal. Though if I were one of the PCs, I'd probably get them to travel to before the Return of the Archwizards trilogy (the return of Shade) and stop that from happening too.
And while I can see that this thread was intended to be a "what-if scenario" it does come off as very anti-4eFR by it's very nature (lets re-write the putrid filth that 4eFR is into something better). I don't share this opinion, but I can see why some people who like the rules of 4E but not the 4eFR setting could find it very useful.
In the end, I'll always try to further constructive thinking and community with those of different ideas so let me think more on the alternative timeline and I'll try to come back with more useful ideas.
it said she feigned death, you the reader blink and Corellon Larethian appears and Eilistraee's pieces turned DArk Elf Brown from the Black or Dark Drow that they started with.
I'm not sure she is dead, she may be an arch fey she is powerful enough to be such still.
or you can be in the group that it never happened
And she's still very much alive and well in my campaign setting (having never read the LP series) so I have no idea how she died or why.
Probably better that way...
Q'arlynd and Karas are the only good things about that trilogy, seriously. This is a series of books so bad that even Corellon showing up at the end can't make it not suck.
I thought with Corellon showing up at the end made it suck.
;)
Q'arlynd and Karas are the only good things about that trilogy, seriously. This is a series of books so bad that even Corellon showing up at the end can't make it not suck.
I thought with Corellon showing up at the end made it suck.
;)
Why do you hate elves soo much? Are you a dwarf person?
Plus I like ribbin Nai.;)
Howd you know?
Plus I like ribbin Nai.;)
Because it is like dog people are like dwarf people and cat people are like elf people. For some reason Dwarf people have this irrational hate of elves...probably they are soo much better than dwarves.
Ironically enough, I am very much a cat person, and they are in fact far superior to dogs. Just ask them.
Ironically enough, I am very much a cat person, and they are in fact far superior to dogs. Just ask them.
They could be a correlation there too....except I think there is cat people= elf people and dog people = dwarf people.
Except even I break that rule as I likle both dogs and cats and like elves but hate dwarves.
And the only real dwarf person I know is a cat person.
I am a cat person also.
Yet I also like dogs, but I prefer cat...;)
So why the 'racial profilin' huh?
I am a cat person also.
Yet I also like dogs, but I prefer cat...;)
So why the 'racial profilin' huh?
You are like me...in liking cats and dogs. So why do you hate elves? That seems more like racial profiling.
Plus 'listening to all of Markus, and Stigger's anti-elf propaganda' kinda turned me off from them.;)
My first D&D Character was a Dwarf, and Elf players tend to be prissy
so....
Plus it's fun to annoy Nai...
I am kinda apathetic about those pointy eard monsters.
Plus 'listening to all of Markus, and Stigger's anti-elf propaganda' kinda turned me off from them.;)
My first D&D Character was a Dwarf, and Elf players tend to be prissy
Plus it's fun to annoy Nai...
yeah, btw how much could I get for Sehanine Moonbow's undergarments on the black market??
So lets get this back on topic, Repairing of the Timeline. Does it need fixed? How would one travel time in the Realms anyway? And lets say that you do manage to go back in time and "fix" things, as Star Trek has shown us, really all youd do is create an alternate timeline that youd be stuck in. Is that really fixing anything? And another thing, wouldn't going back in time and mucking up things actually cause more harm to the Space/Time Continuum, instead of "fixxing" anything?
Cmon guys, this sort of thing belongs in the Spam club. Ive already been yelled at for supposedly spamming this thread all up, I just know that Im going to get the blame for this too
So lets get this back on topic, Repairing of the Timeline. Does it need fixed? How would one travel time in the Realms anyway? And lets say that you do manage to go back in time and "fix" things, as Star Trek has shown us, really all youd do is create an alternate timeline that youd be stuck in. Is that really fixing anything? And another thing, wouldn't going back in time and mucking up things actually cause more harm to the Space/Time Continuum, instead of "fixxing" anything?
There is a spam club?
Back on topic.
The thing is with time travel it depends on what rules you want to use. Star Trek is not the definitive autority on time travel. So it is possible to go back in time and fix the timeline if the DM allows it.
My problem with this solution and why you have things like alternative timelines and possibly damaging the Space/Time continuum is once you open that can of worms what is to keep the bad guys from going back in time and fixing your fix? Or just going back in time to when you are a child and just killing you, etc.
If I was to run a 4Ed FR campaign it would probably be centered around bringing back the Weace and restoring dead gods, and get rid of the whole Abeir thing, etc. And aviod the whole time travel angle. i just don't like time travel plots much though.
Spam
And good points on the time travel thing. If the bad guys went back in time and fixed your fix, then that could occur before the good guys go back in time to do their thing, which in turn may prevent them from going back in time to begin with so then the bad guys would never have gone back in time to do what they did so then the good guys would go back in time to do the thing that they originally was going to do but then the bad guys... ugh! So then you end up gettin stuck in a Time Loop, so yeah definitely a can worms there. But like you said, depends on how the DM decides to run it.
So lets get this back on topic, Repairing of the Timeline. Does it need fixed? How would one travel time in the Realms anyway? And lets say that you do manage to go back in time and "fix" things, as Star Trek has shown us, really all youd do is create an alternate timeline that youd be stuck in. Is that really fixing anything? And another thing, wouldn't going back in time and mucking up things actually cause more harm to the Space/Time Continuum, instead of "fixxing" anything?
I hinted at this before on this forum and other forums too. There is one functional Time Gate left in 1480 DR. As for fixing things, I agree with everyone. It all depends on the DM. If the DM goes from canon FR then there are special anchors in time that prevents people from mucking up major events/people/things. A person who wants to travel to the past to kill Elmintser as a child would be prevented from doing so…then they would have to deal with that periods ‘current’ Deity of Time. If the DM decides to go semi-canon Realms then the players may be able to change things. Assmuing they are able to stop all of the events that triggered the Spellplague....good luck!
And good points on the time travel thing. If the bad guys went back in time and fixed your fix, then that could occur before the good guys go back in time to do their thing, which in turn may prevent them from going back in time to begin with so then the bad guys would never have gone back in time to do what they did so then the good guys would go back in time to do the thing that they originally was going to do but then the bad guys... ugh! So then you end up gettin stuck in a Time Loop, so yeah definitely a can worms there. But like you said, depends on how the DM decides to run it.
Which is why I don't run time travel adventures as a DM...I don't like them as a player...and except for 2 movies I tend to dislike any movie, novel, etc that deals with time travel. Most of the time the rules are poorly thought out...and cause my head to explode....though a old 2nd edition accessory dealt with time travel in a ok way. I think it was called Chronmancer...or something like that. It has a lot of good ideas to deal with time travel in D&D.
I hinted at this before on this forum and other forums too. There is one functional Time Gate left in 1480 DR. As for fixing things, I agree with everyone. It all depends on the DM. If the DM goes from canon FR then there are special anchors in time that prevents people from mucking up major events/people/things. A person who wants to travel to the past to kill Elmintser as a child would be prevented from doing so…then they would have to deal with that periods ‘current’ Deity of Time. If the DM decides to go semi-canon Realms then the players may be able to change things. Assmuing they are able to stop all of the events that triggered the Spellplague....good luck!
Ah yes Andrio's Gate. Id almost forgotten about that. (Ok so I didnt forget about it, I just didnt want to mention it cause sfdragon is always trying to mess around with the Space/Time Continuum, and if he discovered the location of that gate... well I dont want to think about what might happen)
Any way, according to that Countdown to the Realms article, Andrios is one of the few Time Gates still functioning, so I'd Imagine theres at least one other one. I believe the Netheril Box Set has a listing of known time gates, but that information is very dated and most of those are probably no longer functioning. I believe there was also a listing of rules and conditions for Time Travel, and even a Spell, which would probably be a Ritual by 4e standards called Time Conduit. I might have to dig that out and post relevant information from it.
I also seem to recall a magical fountain somewhere that if one gazed into it you would see images from the past, then if you went into the fountain you would find yourself in that time period. I cant remember where I read that at now, I may dig around and see if I cant find that.
both
?
both
?
that was toward Nai
I hinted at this before on this forum and other forums too. There is one functional Time Gate left in 1480 DR. As for fixing things, I agree with everyone. It all depends on the DM. If the DM goes from canon FR then there are special anchors in time that prevents people from mucking up major events/people/things. A person who wants to travel to the past to kill Elmintser as a child would be prevented from doing so…then they would have to deal with that periods ‘current’ Deity of Time. If the DM decides to go semi-canon Realms then the players may be able to change things. Assmuing they are able to stop all of the events that triggered the Spellplague....good luck!
Ah yes Andrio's Gate. Id almost forgotten about that. (Ok so I didnt forget about it, I just didnt want to mention it cause sfdragon is always trying to mess around with the Space/Time Continuum, and if he discovered the location of that gate... well I dont want to think about what might happen)
Any way, according to that Countdown to the Realms article, Andrios is one of the few Time Gates still functioning, so I'd Imagine theres at least one other one. I believe the Netheril Box Set has a listing of known time gates, but that information is very dated and most of those are probably no longer functioning. I believe there was also a listing of rules and conditions for Time Travel, and even a Spell, which would probably be a Ritual by 4e standards called Time Conduit. I might have to dig that out and post relevant information from it.
I also seem to recall a magical fountain somewhere that if one gazed into it you would see images from the past, then if you went into the fountain you would find yourself in that time period. I cant remember where I read that at now, I may dig around and see if I cant find that.
screwing with the PAst, there is no god of time past Enloth,
however agents of oghma do watch and follow time travellers and kill those who attempt to alter the past.
Though they may look the otherway concerning the palgue
Enoreth, you mean? Labelas is pissed you spelled his last name wrong. WTF do gods need with last names though? I mean, for example, i's not like there's a bunch of Corellons running around and if he doesn't call himself Corellon *Larethian* people are going to get confused.
And yeah, Star Trek can't even decide on what happens with time travel within itself, so it's a bad example to use. ;P
Now if you really want to muck things up and drive people insane, what you need to do is become a god, then go back in time before your race existed and become your own race's creator deity. Where did you come from? Try not to think about it too much, down that path lies madness.
I like that the Elven gods have last names, I think it makes them seem more approachable, like you can relate to them more, I mean really Id much prefer to be praying to Corellon Larethian, or Labelas Enoreth, as aposed to Korgor the Destroyer or what ever. The fact that elven deities have last names also leads me to believe that they werent always gods, but were perhaps mortal once, as mortal as elves can be anyway. I mean they have surnames, so must of had parents right?So somewhere there could be a Mr. and Mrs Larethian who are so proud of their boy, even if he did marry that spider ****. Not only that but... wait a minute here, youre purposely trying to drive me off topic here, well it wont work I tell you!
Back to the topic of Time Travel:
Rules of Time Travel.
Time Travelers always arrive in the begining hours of the first day of whatever year they travel to, and return to their own time period on the last day of the year, NOTHING can prevent this from happening (except altering the Time Line, see below.)
All Magic Items, Spells, and Psionics are stripped from the characters. Spellbooks my be brought but any spells not existing in the target year are shown as blank pages. (not sure how Id do that in 4e terms, perhaps wiping Daily spell powers and power points from psionics, until they take an extended rest)
Time Travels cannot exist in the same Time more than once, so any one trying to visit a year theyve already visited will find themselves hurled 1d100 years in a random time and place.
Its nearly impossible to chose an exact physical place when traveling time, generaly the travelers will find themselves within 100 miles of the general area they wish to visit.
Any items that do not exist in the target year cannot be brought.
Ok and now to the Nitty Gritty, altering the past. 1 of 2 things will happen:
1 The travelers change past event, creating an alternate timeline, at the end of the year they do not travel back to their own time period, but are instead stuck in this alternate one.
2 Mystryl (or Mystra, possibly Labelas) ejects them from the time period and puts them back in their own,Retroactively erasing their existences and their effects upon the extant timeline.
-deleted-
Why do I get the feeling that I'm missing something here?
I will try to keep this 4e rules lite. Any arcane or divine user will be powerless in the past. Their power source as they know it doesn’t exist. They will have to learn how to access the pre-1385 Weave . A high powered (30th level) mage wouldn’t be able to cast a simple cantrip. A high powered cleric or other divine agent would be powerless too. Because pre-Spellplague, the deities relied heavily on the Weave to give spells to their mortal divine agents. They (arcane & divine users) would need to learn how to access this ‘new’ Weave. An arcane user would have to start from scratch to relearn how to cast a spell. They would need to find a mentor or gain access to a research lab for an undefined period of time.
Divine users may be able to access their powers at a faster rate when compared to arcane users. All they need to do is learn the proper chants then pray to the correct deity. The problems they could face is the deity taking a special interest in them, “My, my, who are you? Aren’t you interesting…” Or their deity doesn’t exists as they know them, “You mean Lathander.” They could be branded crazy or a heretic, “Talos is not an aspect! You are a non-believer! Burn this fool!”
Speaking of divine users leads to this question. What deity would send back or sponsor such a quest? I’m not going to waste my breath by talking about evil deities. Unaligned deities may do it if it could be proven the payoff is better than the current status quo. Which good aligned deity is going to send back an agent or sponsor such an adventure? I can safely say it isn’t going to be Amauntor.
I dont believe that a 4e magic using character would be powerless pre spellplague, Mr. Greenwood has stated that the the 4e magic system is just a diffent way of harnassing magical energies, and that if the weave were ever restored that these 4e casters would still be able to use their system of magic. So id imagine that they could still use it in the past, but there is that stipulation that spells can not exist in a time before they were invented, so yeah many of the 4e spells wouldnt have been invented yet, and its also possible that Mystra, Mystryl, or Midnight might grant or deny access, so hmmm alot might depend on the DM, me personaly, I would probably alow normal 4e spellcasting by 4e characters in the past, just to be fair. They may even show off, like look at me I can cast magic missle more times than you. Of course a weave caster would just say so what, my fireball does 20d6 points of damage! But yeah you bring up some good points Lord Toast, ones that I hadnt even considered. This whole time travel thing is trikery than I thought.
And has for any deities that may sponser a quest in time, the only one I can think of would be Labelas Enoreth, the elven god of time, and Lord of the Continuum. So yeah he the only one I can think of who could do such a thing, and probably has the power to block any other god from doing it.
And has for any deities that may sponser a quest in time, the only one I can think of would be Labelas Enoreth, the elven god of time, and Lord of the Continuum. So yeah he the only one I can think of who could do such a thing, and probably has the power to block any other god from doing it.
I’m not a big fan of using information found on the web, so I’m going to raid my FR library and look up his description. Until then, I would theorize any deity having limited or full access to the ‘time portfolio’ would try to prevent a major change. A deity with full access to the portfolio would probably even prevent minor changes. Or at the very least allow a minor change but be annoyed by the occurrence.
And are you sure Ed said they would be able to instantly use their system of magic or they would be able to access it within a reasonable amount of time. I'm not trying to be cute, just accurate. (lets say personal future adventure projects may be affected)
And are you sure Ed said they would be able to instantly use their system of magic or they would be able to access it within a reasonable amount of time. I'm not trying to be cute, just accurate. (lets say personal future adventure projects may be affected)
I remember reading Eds thoughts on that over on the ask Ed thread over at Candlekeep, Not sure what page it was on, I'll look and see if I cant find it. Also I should point out that the statement wasnt directed towards those that would travel back in time, but wether or not they would still have access to their spells if the Weave was restored in the current timeline.
Oh and sfdragon mentioned Oghma as a possible guardian of the timestream, I dont ever remember him having any sort of association with time, but Lore and History are definitly under his speheres of influence, so anyone changing history may inded bring the wrath of Oghma down on them.
"Over several years and editions of the game, in discussions with Ed (and hearing him in GenCon seminars with TSR and later WotC designers) I think this will always be the case. As in: the Weave was only ever one way of accessing the nature forces and energies of the world, and there were other, less popular magical systems that functioned as well as the Weave. To arcane spellcasters, the Weave IS magic, but it's really a way of understanding (and therefore accessing) the infinitely complex weave of interacting energies. There are other ways.
So, yes, warlocks and sorcerers and others wouldn't "lose their powers" if the Weave was refounded."
So yeah nothing about Time Travel, but still it leads me to believe that they could still cast their spells. I'll pose a specific Time Travel question, and see if we get an official reply.
I concur about Oghma or any deity associated with history and knowledge. Study the past to get accurate records is a good thing. Changing the past is a bad thing. I think the old portal articles in the Realmslore section covered a sect of Oghma studying the past.
Here is another interesting logistics problem. The landscape itself has changed. The travelers would need an old map, compass, and knowledge in celestial navigation to figure out where they have landed. And there is still a small chance they can get lost. (blown die roll) Of course there is no guarantee they will land in a safe spot. I’m not talking about appearing in the middle of open water or a few feet in the air. I’m thinking more along the lines of a battlefield, slavers, a dragons hoard, or flat out bad territory a desert instead of a forest.
Thanks for the information Silversword.
And I posted a specific question on Candlekeep regarding 4e magic use and Time Travelers in pre Spellplague periods and whether or not those ruled would even still apply post Spellplague, so we shall see, hopefully.
I read the elven god of time entries found in the 2nd edition book Demihuman Deities then 3e book Faiths and Pantheons. I can firmly say that Labelas Enoerth wouldn't sponsor a group of time travelers to alter the time line. In fact he would attempt to prevent, clean up, or eradicate a group.
To quote from his dogma, "Record and preserve the lessons of history, and draw lessons from that which has unfolded. In the end, the sun always sets ere the next day dawns anew."
He even has a special order of mortal agents to preserve the time stream called, The Knights Paradoxical. Some of their tasks include guarding the time gates and tracking down copies of the time conduit spells.
I always figured he wouldn't interfere unless it would negatively impact the elven race. Boy was I wrong.
but I wont swear by it.
and he might let it slide, if you could convince him of the dangers and taht it could prevent the returnin abeir and other negatives that threaten faerun.
Faerun thinks she is long dead. to screw over shar on this matter, one might have to go back farther than cyric spanking mystra.
go back to ancient netheril, the ruins of the hall of the moon might be a good place to start such a task. go there before Lord KArsus ever casts his spell. find a temple to Mystryl, and tell her the future of what KArsus does to her, and what shar does latter on and the concequenses of his actions.
if one gets her alliance and agreement to aid the pcs , she will teleport the PCs and her self(leaving a clone of herself behind) foward through the ages.
you might not prevent the spell plague doing this, but it could seet a deity of magic, and in the plague.
it might also restore Entropy's prison.
Id much prefer to be praying to Corellon Larethian
Fabulous idea, I do it at least once a day. May I suggest a small altar with sky blue and silver candles? They sell little four inch ones, they're called chime candles, that fit well into a small space. Some sort of picture or at least a silver crescent moon symbol, might help you focus your meditations properly. 
Mr. and Mrs Larethian
Heresy, all of it. Terrible terrible vile heresy.
Any arcane or divine user will be powerless in the past. Their power source as they know it doesn’t exist. They will have to learn how to access the pre-1385 Weave . A high powered (30th level) mage wouldn’t be able to cast a simple cantrip. A high powered cleric or other divine agent would be powerless too.
Elves. I've got a couple of pointy-eared 4E FR characters who stubbornly cling to their crescent moon holy symbols and mutter disparagingly about how heretical the eight-pointed star is.
I dont know Labelas strikes me as the type who may turn a blind eye
Hey now, he's sensitive about that missing eye.
I dont know Labelas strikes me as the type who may turn a blind eyeHey now, he's sensitive about that missing eye.
I just knew that you would catch that.