www.wizards.com/dnd/drow.aspx
Soooo, in the grand scheme of RSEs, how does this one sit with you?
as always, i'm optimistic that the writers and designers will be able to take this in an interesting direction though. i won't judge anything until we learn more.
Aside from that, I am not pessimisitic about a bit of drow mayhem in the Realms. I just frown a bit at the 'worlds spanning' event they had to turn it into.
Gomez
This "event" (not using "RSE" just yet; will have to wait and see what WotC actually does first) reminds me of how the drow were coming to the surface at the start of 3rd Edition D&D, when the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting was first released.
You had more drow on the surface of the Realms, more chances to play them and interact with them (without having to do into the Underdark, which I think was the point) and otherwise use them in D&D campaigns.
I made use of those elements in my then Realms campaign. They were useful because they were largly in the background.
This event, however, feels like it's going to be very in your face. I'm not sure I like that.
Speaking of in your face: I never finished reading the War of the Spider Queen novels and I never read the novels having to do with the culling of the drow pantheon, but I will say I really hope this event doesn't herald the return of the dead drow gods.
Give me small, character-driven stories. Please don't blow up that part of the Forgotten Realms (as shown on the Realms map in the video) where a lot of people set their Realms campaigns.
The drow finding a place for themselves in the Realms could be a really cool story, provided the authors, editors and (yes, let's admit it) penny pinchers don't all decide the best way to do it is by breaking everyone's sandbox.
In other words: give us no more than a good shake of the snowglobe. OK?
As with most things D&D these days though, I'm just contenting myself with a wait and see plan. Hopefully they'll redeem themselves with 5e/Next in my eyes.
Because apparently, when FR fans say for decades, "no more RSEs, we beg you," they somehow keep hearing us the wrong way.
Edit: News from PAX East says that the first salvo takes place in Daggerdale.
Beneath the settlement of Dagger Falls, the deadly vanguard of an evil army crawls from the Underdark to threaten those who revere the light.
Her Radiance Dareen Travaskyr has led the Temple of Lathander’s Light for many years, making it a source of good and civilization in the otherwise wild Daggerdale. When the priestess received a vision urging her to create a powerful icon against an impending darkness, she employed a group of adventurers to complete her divinely inspired tasks. But evil has spies everywhere. Now, the party of heroes might be the only thing standing between forces bent on a grisly fate for the temple's inhabitants.
or someone got confused
either that or its a left over sect that worships Amuanator...
see the morning lord paragon path for details
I will love to see Quenthel back in action as the Matron Mother of House Baenre.
Guys I think that there are going be something worse than Drow that is going be next enemy. There been some compaigns and yeah Forgotten Realms Wikia mentioning Drow as slaves in Chessenta and Thay. Drow are being pushed out of the Under Dark. I read up on literture of the Azers and they are pretty nasty folks and so are some of the lizard folks. I would love to see some Mind Flayer action.
Drow may be chaotic evil but that does not mean they don't plan for things. It could be the Sava game that Corellon and Lolth are playing at the end of Lady Penitenent. I being the devil advocate here.
I can see why both Vhaeraun and Eilastraee had to go. Of the whole Drow Pantheon Eilastraee is one obstacle that would have prevent the Uprising of the Drow. Vhaeraun was a rival that Lolth got tired of sharing the power.
From that ad Lolth is becoming Cyric replacement. She wants to be the Over God over Abier-Toril this is my take.
I didn't care for War of the Spider Queen.
I didn't care for the Lady Penitent Trilogy.
I thought the drow invasion orchestrated by Lolth and Malar in Evermeet was interesting, but probably not the best part of the book, so to see "Evermeet" replaced with "all Faerun" doesn't do Rise of the Underdark any favors, really.
As far as RSEs go, this one might actually turn out pretty mild, but that doesn't make me any more interested. If the novels were to focus on the impact of the Rise on individual characters and settlements, I'd probably be all for it, but I get the feeling it's going to be the more wide-reaching, "snapshots of every corner" approach that I definitely dislike. I'll wait and see, though.
Synopsis from the upcoming Encounters season:
War of the Spider Queenruns May 16 through August 15, and starts off with seemingly innocent times in Shadowdale:
This realm and the town with which it shares its name are better known for the past than the present. Ancient battles and the ruins they left behind draw historians and adventurers alike to these lands. Storm and Syluné Silverhand once dwelled here, and sly Elminster still does. His protection has long kept Shadowdale safe, and even if Elminster's power has greatly diminished since his time as Mystra's Chosen, who would dare attack his home?
The white granite hill called Old Skull has loomed over Shadowdale for ages, but its significance has varied over time. When drow controlled the town, it was a sign of danger and domination. When their kind was forced out, the people of Shadowdale went back to seeing the hill as nothing more than a fascinating landmark. Sheep graze around it now, while children play atop its slopes of bare white stone.
A famed tavern takes its name from the landmark. The Old Skull Inn is known throughout Faerûn as a haven for adventurers. It is said that secret tunnels lead from the tavern's basement into catacombs under Old Skull—and from there into the Underdark. Adventurers gossip that a bribe to the innkeeper, Ghessla Silvermane, can gain an honest traveler access to the realms below the earth.
Lady Addee Ulphor rules Shadowdale, presiding over a land that has been peaceful for the twenty years since Lord Azalar Falconhand retired. The symbol of leadership, the Pendant of Ashaba, is Lady Ulphor's by right, and she keeps it secured in the Twisted Tower of Ashaba.
In War of the Spider Queen, you and your fellow adventurers have come to Shadowdale to investigate the drow's activities and delve into the caverns of the Underdark.
Well...
I didn't care for War of the Spider Queen.
I didn't care for the Lady Penitent Trilogy.
I thought the drow invasion orchestrated by Lolth and Malar in Evermeet was interesting, but probably not the best part of the book, so to see "Evermeet" replaced with "all Faerun" doesn't do Rise of the Underdark any favors, really.
As far as RSEs go, this one might actually turn out pretty mild, but that doesn't make me any more interested. If the novels were to focus on the impact of the Rise on individual characters and settlements, I'd probably be all for it, but I get the feeling it's going to be the more wide-reaching, "snapshots of every corner" approach that I definitely dislike. I'll wait and see, though.
Lord Manshoon, not to stir any speculations or spoilers but, Where did you Bury Elminster Deep?
another edition, another calamity to the Forgotten Realms!
4e already had an RSE. This seems more like a normal war, which FR could kinda use imho. And Drow seem pretty popular (but not horribly overused yet in 4e FR). Stuff will always need to happen in FR. Given the alternatives, this seems fine.
...but how is this going to work? I mean it seems to be intertwined with the Encounters program. Is what happens in Encounters games (or the greater proportion of them, like LFR was) canonical? Will the ultimate result of RotU be set in stone beforehand? Or will it be subject to the outcomes of the games?
As a transition RSE it gives me the fear. The denizens of this board know my feelings on the More Dangerous Realms... now it is going to become even more so?
"Deep in the Abyssal darkness of the Demonweb Pits, the goddess Lolth is spinning a web of deceit, treachery, and ambition. Her goal is to seize control of arcane magic—a position that has lain vacant since the death of Mystra a hundred years ago.
To facilitate this grasp for power, Lolth sent a prophet—Danifae Yauntyrr—to all the cities of the drow. Danifae is a fallen priest, a scoundrel, a seductress, and—if history is any guide—an avatar of Lolth herself. Danifae whispered to the leaders of all the great drow houses, spurring them to gather ancient power to aid Lolth's ascent.
The drow are scouring the world for primordial relics (pieces of a dead or sleeping primordial), seeking out the remains of great wizards, gathering artifacts once sacred to Mystra, and fighting for control of magical locations on the world's surface.
As the drow gather arcane energy and channel it to Lolth, her power grows. Her web extends to cover most of the world, forming a Demon Weave to replace the sundered Weave that Mystra maintained—a new fabric of arcane magic. With that, the priests and wizards who serve Lolth have access to greater power than ever before, and their task becomes to use it.
Across the surface world, Lolth's servitors draw on the Demon Weave to create shrouds of darkness that cover league upon league of surface lands. Under this pall of darkness, the drow can move and fight freely during what would normally be daylight hours. With this aid, they can complete Lolth's transformation and bring the world to ruin."
www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...
Not sure what the D&D Fortune Cards (Drow Treachery) are all about, but I think I'll give it a look.
That aside, I suppose we shouldn't be surprised WotC is playing up the "who will try to replace Mystra?" angle.
I wonder if we're going to see Lolth duke it out with Asmodeus (he who at Azuth) in the near future?
Will the ultimate result of RotU be set in stone beforehand?
Yup (making those events effectively canonical). As such, this seems like a normal "save the world" scenario (with the PC's expected to be successful). However, since it's running across three seasons of encounters, I'd be dissapointed if WotC didn't use such a massively long event to explain any changes coming in 5e.
Hmmm...
Lolth has Eilistraee "inside" her. E did have a chosen in common with Mystra. I wonder if this will lead to the birth of a new Eilistraee-Mystra goddess of magic and explain the return of traditional spell casting (in 5e).
That sounds like an excellent speculation. Haven't they've been hinting for awhile at the return of Mystra?
What's the deal with the Rise of the Underdark campaign?
The Rise of the Underdark is a story theme that kicked off this year at PAX East, similar to what we did with Neverwinter last year. The Rise of the Underdark storyline is a series of interconnected stories, adventures, and products all related to the same storyline. I asked James Wyatt to give us an idea of what the story looks like, and he said:
Deep in the Abyssal darkness of the Demonweb Pits, the goddess Lolth is spinning a web of deceit, treachery, and ambition. Her goal is to seize control of arcane magic—a position that has lain vacant since the death of Mystra a hundred years ago.
To facilitate this grasp for power, Lolth sent a prophet—Danifae Yauntyrr—to all the cities of the drow. Danifae is a fallen priest, a scoundrel, a seductress, and—if history is any guide—an avatar of Lolth herself. Danifae whispered to the leaders of all the great drow houses, spurring them to gather ancient power to aid Lolth's ascent.
The drow are scouring the world for primordial relics (pieces of a dead or sleeping primordial), seeking out the remains of great wizards, gathering artifacts once sacred to Mystra, and fighting for control of magical locations on the world's surface.
As the drow gather arcane energy and channel it to Lolth, her power grows. Her web extends to cover most of the world, forming a Demon Weave to replace the sundered Weave that Mystra maintained—a new fabric of arcane magic. With that, the priests and wizards who serve Lolth have access to greater power than ever before, and their task becomes to use it.
Across the surface world, Lolth's servitors draw on the Demon Weave to create shrouds of darkness that cover league upon league of surface lands. Under this pall of darkness, the drow can move and fight freely during what would normally be daylight hours. With this aid, they can complete Lolth's transformation and bring the world to ruin.
Additionally, you'll be able to participate in the story through three D&D Encounters seasons (Web of the Spider Queen, Council of Spiders, and War of Everlasting Darkness), play in organized play events at GenCon (Dawn of Nightchampionship adventure), PAX Prime (The Sun Never Rises adventure), and local game stores (with two Lair Assault challenges—Spiderkiller and Kill the Wizard). Products tied to the Rise of the Underdark campaign include RPG books (Into the Unknown: The Dungeon Survival Handbook, Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue), two Dungeon Tiles sets (The Urban Underdark, Castle Grimstead), a map pack (Vaults of the Underdark), D&D Fortune Cards (Drow Treachery), the Dungeon Command skirmish board game's Sting of Lolth faction pack, and online content in Dragon issue #413 and Dungeon issue #204. There are also several novels related to the storyline, including War of the Spider Queen Volumes 1 & 2, Charon's Claw by R.A. Salvatore, and ebook exclusives: Sword of the Gods: Spinner of Lies by Bruce Cordell, Prince of Ravens by Richard Baker, Skein of Shadows by Marsheila Rockwell and Spider and Stone by Jaleigh Johnson. Find out more at DungeonsandDragons.com/drow
or the idea doesnt sit well.
but then I'm not Stigger and cant speak for him
not interested in it either myself though.
and its becasue the druid class is available for those who preorder. and I dont care for mmos and even more so if they only release x classes for them and not all the ones from phb1 and 2
Now, why do I feel like I've encountered this before?
Reading over that Ro3 info, I can't say my excitement for Rise of the Underdark has increased. I was a bit disappointed to see it even earned a spot in Ro3 to begin with, but that's beside the point. Basically, the tactics of the drow seem to be "feed Lolth every scrap of arcane magic under the sun, and kill every non-drow you see", which is honestly on-par with what I expected in terms of the "complexity" of their designs. Can't wait for the drow to stumble into pockets of spellplague; they can have fun with that.
It'd be funny to see Lolth get shivved by Shar for trying to claim magic as her own domain, though. I'm aware it's never going to happen, but the thought of Lolth trying to beat Shar at her own game and paying for it is somewhat amusing.
If it isn't about drow, have drow in it, or have Drizzt in it, it isn't worth doing.
Well, maybe that's overstated, but I'm getting really tired of drow as the chief ingredient in my FR soup, if you get my meaning. I can't be the only one.
Write some more about aboleths. We haven't had enough aboleths yet.
Maybe write something about an aboleth with a heart of gold that becomes a ranger of Silvanus or something and wields a pair of spinning tridents in his tentacles, then later falls in love with a dwarf chick. Awesome.
I'm pretty excited by the possibility that magic might become the domain of an evil goddess in 5E. That'll surely require some change in perspective for arcane characters (everyone's a warlock now?).
Well, after reading that bit, any interest I had in this just evaporated. Definitely not my cup of tea.
I am curious, why?
Well, its a multi-faceted reason really.
One is that I'm sick of this whole make magic evil thing that they've been harping on since the Shadow Weave was introduced. Not that it hasn't been a theme for much longer, but with the Shadow Weave they took it to absurdity levels and its only been getting worse. It just strikes me that one of the overarching themes of the Realms has been that magic has been as much a shield and protector as it had been a sword and oppressor, if not moreso. That's what I enjoyed so much about Mystra to be honest, that magic wasn't something to be feared so much as respected and worked with. It got rid of a lot of what amounted to me as Christian dogmatic beliefs and really divorced the setting from the real world for me. Now... well, I'll just leave it at the settings approach to magic is really turning me off of it.
Two, must all of the massive threats have a female pushing them? I know its probably a bit touchy for some people, but after essentially neutering the strong female presences in the Realms with 4e, except for the evil ones of course, and then continuing the trend with this whole Llolth thing, its just getting to be too much for me. One of the things I loved about the Realms was the presence of strong female characters, who didn't need men to prop them up or approve of them, and I don't really see that anymore in the Realms. Certainly one can find exceptions to that, but the problem is that they are exceptions rather than the norm.
Three, I'm going to have to echo others in that the Drow have been done to death of late. It was bad enough that they wrecked the Dales with them, now they're going to spread the taint across the whole surface world AND toss in areas of eternal darkness. Great. As if the floating globs of land weren't bad enough. While I don't want to see aberrations rising to more evil prominence, I can't stand all that Cthuluesque stuff, I do agree that we need a change in the Big Bad Evil of the setting besides Llolth (who ultimately pushed the Drow to the surface in my book, that they were actually Vhaerunites was besides the point, since he ultimately served her ends when it came down to it whether he knew it or not) and Shar, and their various minions and proxies.
Lastly, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It was the Seldarine who forced her down into the Underdark, and they're still around as far as I'm aware. Its not like Corellon got any less powerful... To top that off for me though, is that it just mirrors the whole Dark Lilith mythos too much for my liking, which ultimately is an extremely sexist notion right off the bat, at least to my mind. I know they changed it enough so that one can say, yeah, she's pretty evil and deserved being tossed down, but still, the basic myth is still there and leaves a bad taste in the mouth when its played up so much. I'd have preferred they left Llolth in the background rather than making her so very prominent. I just think she works better there, creeping up in the darkness on you, never striking until it was too late. At least that was my preferred take on her.
Well, after reading that bit, any interest I had in this just evaporated. Definitely not my cup of tea.
I am curious, why?
Well, its a multi-faceted reason really.
One is that I'm sick of this whole make magic evil thing that they've been harping on since the Shadow Weave was introduced. Not that it hasn't been a theme for much longer, but with the Shadow Weave they took it to absurdity levels and its only been getting worse. It just strikes me that one of the overarching themes of the Realms has been that magic has been as much a shield and protector as it had been a sword and oppressor, if not moreso. That's what I enjoyed so much about Mystra to be honest, that magic wasn't something to be feared so much as respected and worked with. It got rid of a lot of what amounted to me as Christian dogmatic beliefs and really divorced the setting from the real world for me. Now... well, I'll just leave it at the settings approach to magic is really turning me off of it.
Two, must all of the massive threats have a female pushing them? I know its probably a bit touchy for some people, but after essentially neutering the strong female presences in the Realms with 4e, except for the evil ones of course, and then continuing the trend with this whole Llolth thing, its just getting to be too much for me. One of the things I loved about the Realms was the presence of strong female characters, who didn't need men to prop them up or approve of them, and I don't really see that anymore in the Realms. Certainly one can find exceptions to that, but the problem is that they are exceptions rather than the norm.
Three, I'm going to have to echo others in that the Drow have been done to death of late. It was bad enough that they wrecked the Dales with them, now they're going to spread the taint across the whole surface world AND toss in areas of eternal darkness. Great. As if the floating globs of land weren't bad enough. While I don't want to see aberrations rising to more evil prominence, I can't stand all that Cthuluesque stuff, I do agree that we need a change in the Big Bad Evil of the setting besides Llolth (who ultimately pushed the Drow to the surface in my book, that they were actually Vhaerunites was besides the point, since he ultimately served her ends when it came down to it whether he knew it or not) and Shar, and their various minions and proxies.
Lastly, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It was the Seldarine who forced her down into the Underdark, and they're still around as far as I'm aware. Its not like Corellon got any less powerful... To top that off for me though, is that it just mirrors the whole Dark Lilith mythos too much for my liking, which ultimately is an extremely sexist notion right off the bat, at least to my mind. I know they changed it enough so that one can say, yeah, she's pretty evil and deserved being tossed down, but still, the basic myth is still there and leaves a bad taste in the mouth when its played up so much. I'd have preferred they left Llolth in the background rather than making her so very prominent. I just think she works better there, creeping up in the darkness on you, never striking until it was too late. At least that was my preferred take on her.
The FR don't seem like your setting then. If you want cool and original fantasy stories, D&D fantasy is not really where it's at.
must all of the massive threats have a female pushing them? I know its probably a bit touchy for some people, but after essentially neutering the strong female presences in the Realms with 4e, except for the evil ones of course, and then continuing the trend with this whole Llolth thing, its just getting to be too much for me. One of the things I loved about the Realms was the presence of strong female characters, who didn't need men to prop them up or approve of them, and I don't really see that anymore in the Realms. Certainly one can find exceptions to that, but the problem is that they are exceptions rather than the norm.
Three, I'm going to have to echo others in that the Drow have been done to death of late. It was bad enough that they wrecked the Dales with them, now they're going to spread the taint across the whole surface world AND toss in areas of eternal darkness. Great. As if the floating globs of land weren't bad enough. While I don't want to see aberrations rising to more evil prominence, I can't stand all that Cthuluesque stuff, I do agree that we need a change in the Big Bad Evil of the setting besides Llolth (who ultimately pushed the Drow to the surface in my book, that they were actually Vhaerunites was besides the point, since he ultimately served her ends when it came down to it whether he knew it or not) and Shar, and their various minions and proxies.
Lastly, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It was the Seldarine who forced her down into the Underdark, and they're still around as far as I'm aware. Its not like Corellon got any less powerful... To top that off for me though, is that it just mirrors the whole Dark Lilith mythos too much for my liking, which ultimately is an extremely sexist notion right off the bat, at least to my mind. I know they changed it enough so that one can say, yeah, she's pretty evil and deserved being tossed down, but still, the basic myth is still there and leaves a bad taste in the mouth when its played up so much.
You seem to be indicating that you don't like Rise of the Underdark primarily because it's sexist? Interesting; thank you for clarifying your statement of "any interest I had in this just evaporated. Definitely not my cup of tea."
You seem to be indicating that you don't like Rise of the Underdark primarily because it's sexist? Interesting; thank you for clarifying your statement of "any interest I had in this just evaporated. Definitely not my cup of tea."
Actually, he indicated he didn't like it because A) Drow have been done to death and B) the portrayal of female characters (those that remain) has thus far been done in a manner he doesn't like and this latest from WotC is continuing that trend.
I agree with Stigger on A, I don't on B, and I don't understand why Stigger's opinion should be anyone else's concern.
But given what has happened so far to the 'magic' gods, you would think Lloth would leave it alone!
Also, Shar will be pissed.
Actually, he indicated he didn't like it because A) Drow have been done to death and B) the portrayal of female characters
As read it, he indicated he didn't like it for multi-faceted reasons:
1) "sick of this whole make magic evil thing"
2) "must all of the massive threats have a female pushing them?"
3) "Drow have been done to death"
4) "it just mirrors the whole Dark Lilith mythos too much for my liking, which ultimately is an extremely sexist notion"
Two of the four points indicated dislike due to sexism, which led me to ask "You seem to be indicating that you don't like Rise of the Underdark primarily because it's sexist?". Did you feel I was incorrect in doing so?
I agree with Stigger on A, I don't on B, and I don't understand why Stigger's opinion should be anyone else's concern.
This thread seem intended for expressing opinions, and Stigger did so. Oddly, I did not express an opinion in my post, but it seems like you took offense to something, or possibly believe I have a contrary opinion. Can you explain what you meant by the above sentence?Seriously, I don't plan on boycotting WotC unless I think they've intentionally offended me, which I don't, nor do I think they have some evil plan in action. My only thought on them is that they're going in a direction I don't wish to follow, and have been for quite some time. If they go back to a direction I'm interested in, I'll go back and start buying their products again. Really, I still love the Realms, and I still love the idea of D&D, I just don't like its current incarnation. And that's okay with me, I don't have to agree with their new take on the Realms to enjoy my own take on the Realms. Hopefully this all makes some sense, I'll admit I'm a little brain-fried at the moment, its been a long, stressful sort of day.
As to my opinion being of concern, all you feeble little mortals should concern yourselves with my opinion should you wish to avoid (or attract, for you masochists out there) my wrath.
MuHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You know how on some forums you're safe in assuming good intentions? On these forums, it's usually best to assume the opposite.
So I was looking after my favorite Stigger is all. He doesn't need me to look after him as he can take care of himself, but I do it all the same.
No worries.
Hopefully this all makes some sense
Certainly. You articulated it well. The perspective initially surprised & intrigued me in regard to Rise of the Underdark, so the added context was welcome.
I was looking after my favorite Stigger is all.
The wonderful thing about Stiggers is Stiggers are wonderful things.
...An antithetical Weave replica that focuses on darkness and is primarily intended for those free from moral compunction, eh?
Now, why do I feel like I've encountered this before?
Reading over that Ro3 info, I can't say my excitement for Rise of the Underdark has increased. I was a bit disappointed to see it even earned a spot in Ro3 to begin with, but that's beside the point. Basically, the tactics of the drow seem to be "feed Lolth every scrap of arcane magic under the sun, and kill every non-drow you see", which is honestly on-par with what I expected in terms of the "complexity" of their designs. Can't wait for the drow to stumble into pockets of spellplague; they can have fun with that.
It'd be funny to see Lolth get shivved by Shar for trying to claim magic as her own domain, though. I'm aware it's never going to happen, but the thought of Lolth trying to beat Shar at her own game and paying for it is somewhat amusing.
I'm wondering if this means that the Realms are going to get reversed as much as they possibly can without techinically doing a retcon. No surface drow anymore, etc.
It's vaguely possible that they could be making a 5e realms that I'll have no interest in whatsoever.
Well, to be honest, sexism partially lies behind my dislike of 4e in general. Its convoluted, and a little difficult to explain, and doesn't just apply to the Realms. There's also a bit more than I care for of Christian mythos and sensibilities popping up in quietly in stuff (that's everywhere really, not just in D&D to be honest). I don't really wish to go into it beyond that, as I don't really feel like getting into a "WotC is Sexist" rant, since I don't think it is being consciously done, and its largely a cumulative effect of a bunch of small, insignificant things that are doing it, not some coherent aim of theirs. Which is probably true of the Christian stuff as well.
Seriously, I don't plan on boycotting WotC unless I think they've intentionally offended me, which I don't, nor do I think they have some evil plan in action. My only thought on them is that they're going in a direction I don't wish to follow, and have been for quite some time. If they go back to a direction I'm interested in, I'll go back and start buying their products again. Really, I still love the Realms, and I still love the idea of D&D, I just don't like its current incarnation. And that's okay with me, I don't have to agree with their new take on the Realms to enjoy my own take on the Realms. Hopefully this all makes some sense, I'll admit I'm a little brain-fried at the moment, its been a long, stressful sort of day.
As to my opinion being of concern, all you feeble little mortals should concern yourselves with my opinion should you wish to avoid (or attract, for you masochists out there) my wrath.
You're being nicer to them about the sexism thing than I want to be, honestly.
I love 4e to death, but dammit it's a man's world, and it grates on the nerves.
There are plenty of evil dudes running around. I liked the Shar thing, taken by itself, and I loved the return of the netherese, but the female good guys could have retained more prominence, and the core fluff could have involved a lot more important females.
And yes, a lot less Christian sentiment.
As for the sexist/Christian thing, you guys are seeing what you want to see. There have been plenty of strong females: the 7 sisters, Alias, and Alusair come to mind immediately. Most of the big time Mary Sues were eliminated, so losing them is no surprise. Selune is also more prevalent then before and as a force of good. Many major villians in the NWCG, male.
As for this, the drow have always been a matriarchy. The drow are immensely popular. Who else is going to be leading that show? It kinda needs to be females. It has nothing to do with any dark lilith hogwash.
The simple fact is, villians are more important to provide source material for then heroes are. The PCs are the heroes and they write their own story. Therefore, if you want people writing about strong women, you're going to get villians. That has nothing to do with pushing some dark christian agenda, it has to do with what DMs need. Villians. I'm not sure what you expect.
Drow are far too popular to make no surface drow. Honestly, I think after this you will see /more/ surface drow, perhaps a permanent Lolthite presence.
As for the sexist/Christian thing, you guys are seeing what you want to see. There have been plenty of strong females: the 7 sisters, Alias, and Alusair come to mind immediately. Most of the big time Mary Sues were eliminated, so losing them is no surprise. Selune is also more prevalent then before and as a force of good. Many major villians in the NWCG, male.
As for this, the drow have always been a matriarchy. The drow are immensely popular. Who else is going to be leading that show? It kinda needs to be females. It has nothing to do with any dark lilith hogwash.
The simple fact is, villians are more important to provide source material for then heroes are. The PCs are the heroes and they write their own story. Therefore, if you want people writing about strong women, you're going to get villians. That has nothing to do with pushing some dark christian agenda, it has to do with what DMs need. Villians. I'm not sure what you expect.
Other than Selune, none of them are prominent, or around, anymore.
it has everything to do with Lillith, because that's a big part of what inspired the way the Drow are set up in the first place.
We're not seeing what we want to see. It took me most of the last 4 years to even see this stuff, because the rest of 4e was awesome enough to cover it up for me.
I usually agree with most of your posts, but in this case, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
It's practically an attempt at a rallying cry for anti-feminism and Gynophobia, mixed with dominatrix fetishism.
Then they got a good goddess...and she dances about naked in the moonlight...
Great.
Drow are far too popular to make no surface drow. Honestly, I think after this you will see /more/ surface drow, perhaps a permanent Lolthite presence.
As for the sexist/Christian thing, you guys are seeing what you want to see. There have been plenty of strong females: the 7 sisters, Alias, and Alusair come to mind immediately. Most of the big time Mary Sues were eliminated, so losing them is no surprise. Selune is also more prevalent then before and as a force of good. Many major villians in the NWCG, male.
As for this, the drow have always been a matriarchy. The drow are immensely popular. Who else is going to be leading that show? It kinda needs to be females. It has nothing to do with any dark lilith hogwash.
The simple fact is, villians are more important to provide source material for then heroes are. The PCs are the heroes and they write their own story. Therefore, if you want people writing about strong women, you're going to get villians. That has nothing to do with pushing some dark christian agenda, it has to do with what DMs need. Villians. I'm not sure what you expect.
Just a quick note here, I'm far too tired to go more in depth with this...
As to the sexism thing, I'd agree, those all were very strong female presences in the Realms, and they were definitely one of the things I loved about it. But where are they now? Largely eliminated really, with little to nothing to replace them beyond a pittance. Certainly the Realms has a history of strong women, but they're not very visible in this iteration of it, unless its in a negative light. Intentional or not, it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
As to the Lillith context, the role she played as Araushnee in relation to Corellon is almost a direct lift of the Lillith myth, when viewed through a Christian, rather than Pagan, perspective. That's what I was referring to. With the rest of the Christian stuff, a lot of that comes from the perspective of someone who knows far more about the history of that family of religions than I'd like to, in retrospect, so that could have something to do with my perception of things.
As to needing only villains, that's certainly not the method I prefer. Given the choice, I'd much rather have the former approach of a handful of NPCs on both sides described in a few simple brushstrokes that spark the imagination rather than fully statted villains. I personally thoroughly dislike the notion that the PCs exist in a vacuum and are the only ones capable of saving the world. It strikes me, personally, as just an utterly foreign and absurd thought. But hey, if it works for you, I'm glad you have something to suit your tastes, since my older books are still there to do the same for me. So long as we're both happy gaming, then its all good, since that's what its all about.
In most pagan belief system the male and female role is equal but different. It Christianity where you find sexism prevalent. Most organized religions I tend to not to follow because of that belief.
In some ways Shar is more balance in her approach to male gender. Llolth is exactly the opposite of Christian belief that male and female gender relationship. As for sexism I really do agree it is present in the 4 edition but I think it is a reflection of the society as whole in the United States. Like or not there is strong gender discrimination in the world as well. The Drow society shown us even a female centric society like Llolth is just as dangerous as the male centric society we live in
The thing I like that Eli did was include males and females as equals in her worship which may seem to late to some.
As for Llolth and Shar I think some revelations will occur given that their portfolios are similar.
As for Surface Drow I am thinking along the lines that they have not disappeared. I miss the days where there are some rebels in the Drow that wanted to move away from the goddess Lolth.
In most pagan belief system the male and female role is equal but different. It Christianity where you find sexism prevalent. Most organized religions I tend to not to follow because of that belief.
In some ways Shar is more balance in her approach to male gender. Llolth is exactly the opposite of Christian belief that male and female gender relationship. As for sexism I really do agree it is present in the 4 edition but I think it is a reflection of the society as whole in the United States. Like or not there is strong gender discrimination in the world as well. The Drow society shown us even a female centric society like Llolth is just as dangerous as the male centric society we live in
The thing I like that Eli did was include males and females as equals in her worship which may seem to late to some.
As for Llolth and Shar I think some revelations will occur given that their portfolios are similar.
As for Surface Drow I am thinking along the lines that they have not disappeared. I miss the days where there are some rebels in the Drow that wanted to move away from the goddess Lolth.
Eilistraee was just as feminist as Lolth. Eilistraee didn't permit male priests either.
I suppose it may have been accidental, but there's no way that you can seriously view the Drow as anything other than a male driven fantasy about sexy evil women and the men who suffer from them.
Really?
The next time I think differently, I'll remind myself you said I can't think that way.
I think one can certainly perceive the Drow in the way you describe.
I prefer to think of the Drow as just Drow. I don't think taking them "seriously" means stripping away (no pun intended) their in-setting uniqueness, flavor, etc., for the sake of viewing the dark elves through a real-world meta lense.
Note: I'm not telling you you're wrong. By all means view the drow real-world meta lense.
I suppose it may have been accidental, but there's no way that you can seriously view the Drow as anything other than a male driven fantasy about sexy evil women and the men who suffer from them.
Interesting. I had never viewed them that way (neither did anyone else I know personally, afaik... and fwiw: my regular group that I DM'd this weekend has four female players in it). I had thought that Gygax was merely trying to make an unusual (and unequal) society in the Drow, and doing it the other way (i.e. women being treated as second class citizens) would've raised some red flags. Heh... Gygax even named his original Drow city after his kids. Now, it's possible you might be onto something in regard to why they later became so popular, but your statement seems a bit... global.
also fwiw: of the Faerun greater gods (FRCG p.72-77):
4 are Good Males
4 are Evil Males
3 are Good Females
2 (Lolth and Shar) are Evil Females
(granted, the lesser gods are Evil-female heavy, but all six of the female exarchs are Good)
I mean, the women run around in fetish gear, basically, while the men are armored or otherwise clothed. In a male dominated society of similar style, the men would probably still be in real clothes, and the women would be in slave girl fetish rather than dominatrix fetish.
I mean, if the don't bother you, cool. Enjoy. I just cannot unsee what I think is rampant sexism inherent in the Drow concept.
mr_m: When I'm playing the game, I ignore the obvious problems with the drow, too. But they're still there.
I mean, the women run around in fetish gear, basically, while the men are armored or otherwise clothed. In a male dominated society of similar style, the men would probably still be in real clothes, and the women would be in slave girl fetish rather than dominatrix fetish.
I mean, if the don't bother you, cool. Enjoy. I just cannot unsee what I think is rampant sexism inherent in the Drow concept.
Not sure where you get this idea. According to the 3e Drow of the Underdark sourcebook (I'm unaware of a 4e version, and don't recall there being a section on clothing in the 2e sourcebook, but I can check if you like) p37 discusses clothing:
"In point of fact, only a portion of drow dress in such a provocative manner, and it has less to do with sensuality then it does with yet another social show of dominance."
"Drow notions of modesty are, essentially, defensive. Clothing is a protection, not merely against temperature and the environment, or (in case the case of armor) against attack, but also against a perception of weakness."
"Thus the drow who have more to hide dress in greater amounts of clothing"
"On the other hand, a drow slave might dress scantily because that is what his master demands, so it is never safe to make assumptions."
Reading over the article, it seems to provide very general information, that regards to all drow regardless of sex.
Under roleplaying applications the sourcebook advises you to moderate your dress based on your physical abilities or at least your perception of them. Dress functionally. When no such defenses are necessary, however your sense of fashion might well shock your companions, and might even stir social trouble in other communities until you learn local mores and customs of modesty.
No such advice regarding a difference in attitudes between males and females. Both sexes are equally indescriminate in their dress.
As for the artwork, I think it's more marketing for your average nerdy teen male who probably doesn't get a whole lot of attention from females. When that's your target audience, you have to ask yourself which is likely to be more be more popular: Sister Mary Clarence in her Nun outfit, or a black megan fox in a princess leia slave outfit.
My image of drow priestesses was and has always been robe wearing priestesses, with blood dripping off their sacrificial daggers. That's certainly not how they are depicted in a lot of art, but that's the vision created in my mind when I read the dark elf trilogy (with the memorable exception of the orgy scene). Maybe I need to go back and re-read the books.
As for the naked Eilistraee priestess stuff, you need to talk to Ed Greenwood about that. He's the one who wrote the 2e guide to the Drow with all that stuff, and it seems like sleazy chicks are fairly common in his writing...as I recall both Storm and Alustriel got around a bit too, and perhaps Dove as well.
Most of the fiction I've read (I don't read fan fic stuff), I seem to recall most of the females wearing robes, but it's been a while...so I won't contradict you too strongly there.
As for the artwork, I think it's more marketing for your average nerdy teen male who probably doesn't get a whole lot of attention from females. When that's your target audience, you have to ask yourself which is likely to be more be mo
Most of the fiction I've read (I don't read fan fic stuff), I seem to recall most of the females wearing robes, but it's been a while...so I won't contradict you too strongly there.
As for the artwork, I think it's more marketing for your average nerdy teen male who probably doesn't get a whole lot of attention from females. When that's your target audience, you have to ask yourself which is likely to be more be more popular: Sister Mary Clarence in her Nun outfit, or a black megan fox in a princess leia slave outfit.
My image of drow priestesses was and has always been robe wearing priestesses, with blood dripping off their sacrificial daggers. That's certainly not how they are depicted in a lot of art, but that's the vision created in my mind when I read the dark elf trilogy (with the memorable exception of the orgy scene). Maybe I need to go back and re-read the books.
As for the naked Eilistraee priestess stuff, you need to talk to Ed Greenwood about that. He's the one who wrote the 2e guide to the Drow with all that stuff, and it seems like sleazy chicks are fairly common in his writing...as I recall both Storm and Alustriel got around a bit too, and perhaps Dove as well.
Yeah, Ed also likes to have his favorite mage boink the sexy goddess of magic. unfortunately, it's a habit that a few of my favorites suffer from. (Ed and Erik Scott de Bie come to mind immediately)
Anyway, no. Sexist fan service isn't ok just because it sells.
Anyway, random thought - I sincerely hope Shevarash gets some attention at some point during Rise of the Underdark, considering how, ya know, the drow are going to be popping out of gods-know-most-everywhere to invade the surface. This will be like a field day for the Black Archer's crew - protect your homelands and put every last drow you encounter to the sword. This is the sort of thing Shevarash basically drilled into his followers from day one.
Now let's watch as not a peep is mentioned about the god of killing-and-hating-drow-because-they-do-things-like-this.
Just one of several reasons why I don't much care for Ed's writing (although, reflecting on it, nothing Erik or most anyone else has produced has given me the same eye-twitch, knee-jerk reaction that Ed's stuff has summoned).
Anyway, random thought - I sincerely hope Shevarash gets some attention at some point during Rise of the Underdark, considering how, ya know, the drow are going to be popping out of gods-know-most-everywhere to invade the surface. This will be like a field day for the Black Archer's crew - protect your homelands and put every last drow you encounter to the sword. This is the sort of thing Shevarash basically drilled into his followers from day one.
Now let's watch as not a peep is mentioned about the god of killing-and-hating-drow-because-they-do-things-like-this.
I like the way you're thinking here. Shevarash should be going absolutely crazy, and it should be open season on drow on the surface. But, as you point out not terribly likely. Another crown war though, would be good fun.
As for the naked Eilistraee priestess stuff, you need to talk to Ed Greenwood about that. He's the one who wrote the 2e guide to the Drow with all that stuff, and it seems like sleazy chicks are fairly common in his writing...as I recall both Storm and Alustriel got around a bit too, and perhaps Dove as well.
Gods forbid there ever be depictions of women who enjoy sex or are unafraid of nudity!
You prude.
Shevarash should be going absolutely crazy, and it should be open season on drow on the surface.
Agreed. I hope WotC is smart enough to play out this angle.
As for the naked Eilistraee priestess stuff, you need to talk to Ed Greenwood about that. He's the one who wrote the 2e guide to the Drow with all that stuff, and it seems like sleazy chicks are fairly common in his writing...as I recall both Storm and Alustriel got around a bit too, and perhaps Dove as well.
Gods forbid there ever be depictions of women who enjoy sex or are unafraid of nudity!
You prude.
I was just trying to point out that I don't think it's some kind of conspiracy pushing an agenda is all! I think there are simpler answers for the things we see!
And yes, I really hope they play up Shevarash too. Being an elf guy, and drow in particular, I was never very keen on Shevarash....he always seemed a little "drowish" in that he felt totally evil. That being said, in an "uprising" like this so to speak, he should be front and center in his opposition.
I was just trying to point out that I don't think it's some kind of conspiracy pushing an agenda is all! I think there are simpler answers for the things we see!
Ah, my apologies then. I totally missed that.
And yes, I really hope they play up Shevarash too. Being an elf guy, and drow in particular, I was never very keen on Shevarash....he always seemed a little "drowish" in that he felt totally evil. That being said, in an "uprising" like this so to speak, he should be front and center in his opposition.
He does kind of have that all-or-nothing, hate-driven attitude, doesn't he?
I'd love to see Ed take on Shevarash in a novel about the elves bringing the pain to the drow as they invade the surface.
seriously... this is a spoiler
... on critters that were sent by Lolth
I love 4e to death, but dammit it's a man's world, and it grates on the nerves.
While in the game material it is not as apparent, a number of novels hold some very strong women.
Also, we have a fair number of strong women NPCs of varying alignments in LFR, but unfortunately WotC has decided to ignore most if not all of the campaign material.
Gomez
If they want to continue to milk the drow for all their worth, more power to them. At least their return to the surface is based on established canon.
I've come to the conclusion (the past few months) that there really is no such thing as a 'bad idea' - what there is is poor implementation. This could turn out to be a phenomenol thing for FR... or not.
Lets 'wait and see' before we bash our heads against a wall.
I was just trying to point out that I don't think it's some kind of conspiracy pushing an agenda is all! I think there are simpler answers for the things we see!
Ah, my apologies then. I totally missed that.And yes, I really hope they play up Shevarash too. Being an elf guy, and drow in particular, I was never very keen on Shevarash....he always seemed a little "drowish" in that he felt totally evil. That being said, in an "uprising" like this so to speak, he should be front and center in his opposition.
He does kind of have that all-or-nothing, hate-driven attitude, doesn't he?I'd love to see Ed take on Shevarash in a novel about the elves bringing the pain to the drow as they invade the surface.
There's a short story about an shevaran hunting party in one of the anthologies
Show
One of the hunters, who got into it to avenge her child slain by drow, spares the live of a small drow child whose parents were just slain by their hunt. The other shevarans are appaled and murder her and the child on the spot
I love 4e to death, but dammit it's a man's world, and it grates on the nerves.
While in the game material it is not as apparent, a number of novels hold some very strong women.
Also, we have a fair number of strong women NPCs of varying alignments in LFR, but unfortunately WotC has decided to ignore most if not all of the campaign material.
Gomez
Apperently there's metric crap ton of good material in LFR that wizards won't use for no good reason. :P
Nethril is the real threat to most of the realms( they have the support of Shar....who IMO is the biggest of the BBEG goddes in toril.)
I guess this can't hurt, except my players are going to be pissed that their houses in Ravens Bluff are gone. Well when they get back from fighting a undead army in Thay.
Jon Schindehette wrote an article titled Sexism in Fantasy in his latest Dragon's-Eye View column.
Worth a read.
Worth a read.
Lolth: huh waht Vhaerun, how did you???
Vhaerun: *Beyotch slap across Lolth's face** road house!!! and then runs off back into the shadows.
Lolth: You ?Ox head, I kill you for that and make you wish that your were dead.
Interesting article there Misc. Doesn't really change my perceptions of things, but it was some food for thought. Hells, if anything, it just reinforced my perception that the Realms has severely downplayed prominent female figures in 4e and that it in fact is more sexist in that women are not portrayed in strong social or political roles nearly as much as in previous iterations of the Realms. I still don't think it was insidiously intentional, but my own perception is that they just weren't really thinking of it at all and it just sort of ended up that way, whereas previously, it seems like quite a bit of thought went into what roles women played when Ed played a more active role in things.
Now this, I can get on board with.
We're not seeing what we want to see. It took me most of the last 4 years to even see this stuff, because the rest of 4e was awesome enough to cover it up for me.
Thats funny.
Because I remeber this becoming a BIG point of contention just days after the 4e setting book was released.
They nerfed all the women. Someone has issues.
As for the topic-at-hand, I already said I was interested in seeing what they do, regardless if its good or bad (if its good, maybe I'll take an interest in D&D again, and if its bad... well, then its just a matter of 'morbid curiousity'... like watching a train-wreck).
Either way, it WILL be intersting to see how this unfolds.
We're not seeing what we want to see. It took me most of the last 4 years to even see this stuff, because the rest of 4e was awesome enough to cover it up for me.
Thats funny.
Because I remeber this becoming a BIG point of contention just days after the 4e setting book was released.
They nerfed all the women. Someone has issues.
As for the topic-at-hand, I already said I was interested in seeing what they do, regardless if its good or bad (if its good, maybe I'll take an interest in D&D again, and if its bad... well, then its just a matter of 'morbid curiousity'... like watching a train-wreck).
Either way, it WILL be intersting to see how this unfolds.
Great. I wasn't involved in any discussion of any kind on the FR forums at that time, because it took me a while to get around to playing 4e in the realms.
So, I know nothing about those discussions.
Yeah, that debate was a little ugly when, I think it was JohnKretzer, raised it the first time around. Was relieved to see this one remain pretty civil actually.
You and me both, definitely less heated this time around. I am fairly sure that I would have weighed in on that one back then, and I may have been a little... forceful in my point of view. Still, what has been done, has been done and there is no real way to change it now. In a way I do hope that some new, or even better some of the old, female characters rise to prominence in the near future. Though that remains just a hope.
That the Realms seem to be headed for a further endarkening? Now that scares the heck out of me.
As to darkening the Realms even more, I'm pretty ambivalent to it at this point. It would be nice if they got back towards the feel and mood of 2e's version of the Realms, but I'm hardly going to hold my breath over that one happening... I doubt it's of much appeal to most in today's economic and social climate. Personally I'm of a mind that when times are very dark IRL, I prefer some lighthearted escapism to retreat into, but I'm getting the feeling that isn't a terribly common attitude these days. Either that or a lot of companies are massively missing the pervasive mood of the public, which could actually explain why so much stuff is tanking of late...
Yeah, you did get involved in that one as I recall... don't remember how forceful you got though. Probably trying to block the memory or something.
As to darkening the Realms even more, I'm pretty ambivalent to it at this point. It would be nice if they got back towards the feel and mood of 2e's version of the Realms, but I'm hardly going to hold my breath over that one happening... I doubt it's of much appeal to most in today's economic and social climate. Personally I'm of a mind that when times are very dark IRL, I prefer some lighthearted escapism to retreat into, but I'm getting the feeling that isn't a terribly common attitude these days. Either that or a lot of companies are massively missing the pervasive mood of the public, which could actually explain why so much stuff is tanking of late...
Trying to accurately gauge the mood of a consumer market can be a crap shoot, without doubt.
Anyway, while I have no interest in worlds like Dark Sun unless I'm using them to Robin Hood the setting into being a nicer place to live, (hopeless/everything sucks campaigns are total crap, for me. I won't play them.) FR feels like the right mix of danger and stability, to me.
There's monsters in the dark, and the coming of dawn is worth celebrating, but it's not a frothing pile of monster teeth and blood. :P
I really hope this whole thing doesn't stab everything in the face and leave us with a Realms defeated and broken. There are other settings for that.
I also don't want the realms to feel as stable and happy as Eberron, though.
Idk, I always loved the 30's, too, which Eberron reminds me of heavily.
The world has been in better shape in a lot of ways, but it's also incredibly stable in whole chunks of the world. There's the threat of war, but right now there isn't any war. There's just people living.
Anyway, we're on the same page as far as hopeless campaigns. I would never play a DS campaign that was just about surviving and trying to grab your piece of the pie before something bites your hand off and then eats your eyeballs. THat whole...even the good guys are a bunch of a-holes that'll kill you for a cup of water and not think twice is just incredibly unappealing to me.
I was actually a huge fan for the feel of Dragonlance...I really liked the big foe of the dragonarmies trying to take over the continent. It felt very tolkien-esque in that there was a great evil out there to oppose that was trying to take the whole world down. It just felt very epic. That's something that the realms never had going for it.
There are always going to be places of stability, such as Cormyr, and the evils are never on the same sheet of music. I love the realms for the lore, but as far as feel goes, I prefer dragonlance...at least how it was in 2e.
But, still, I'd much rather play in Eberron, for all its faults (it still has quite a few virtues comparatively), than in Dark Sun or Gamma World. Could be that awareness that morality and ethics are luxuries in the face of survival that most can't afford... not the sort of world I would want to live or play in.
I think that's probably what attracts me so much to the Realms, especially the 2e period. Certainly there's grave threats out there, but there was still room for absurdity and humor to give hope and a perspective that it can still be salvaged... which 3e seriously undercut comparatively, and which 4e seems to have virtually eliminated (at least as a major component of the Realms). Probably why I prefer Silver Age titles to most others in comics.
Cormyr Royale: The Royal Court of the Forest Kingdom notes that under Alusair's rule her court is packed with strong women. Her mother the Dowager Dragon Queen Filfaeril Selazair, Myrmeen Lhal (former King's Lord of Arabel), Caladnei the Royal Magician and Laspeera Naerinth (aka Lady Eveningspire).
These Five Ladies, as the article notes, are the most powerful people in Cormyr, controlling the fates of courtiers, nobles and Purple Dragon officers, not to mention all of Cormyr itself.
This doesn't change things under King Foril's reign, of course, but at least we're getting more of a female presence in the Realms.
Also, there's so much we still don't know about the 4E Realms...female rulers and individuals in power can very well exist in the modern Realms, but we've just not seen them yet.
Heh, didn't see the 30's as that different from the Cold War era, just shorter and uglier, and with a worse ending. A very bleak picture in my book, though I tend to approach it from a Noir perspective, so that could have something to do with it. Not that there's anything wrong with that on occassion, I just can't take it for extended periods.
But, still, I'd much rather play in Eberron, for all its faults (it still has quite a few virtues comparatively), than in Dark Sun or Gamma World. Could be that awareness that morality and ethics are luxuries in the face of survival that most can't afford... not the sort of world I would want to live or play in.
I think that's probably what attracts me so much to the Realms, especially the 2e period. Certainly there's grave threats out there, but there was still room for absurdity and humor to give hope and a perspective that it can still be salvaged... which 3e seriously undercut comparatively, and which 4e seems to have virtually eliminated (at least as a major component of the Realms). Probably why I prefer Silver Age titles to most others in comics.
The thing about Eberron is that it is both Noir 30s and Indiana Jones and Ocean's Eleven (the old one), etc. While there was just a war, and there might be anther one soon, people are still working on recovery. They're drinking gin and listening to jazz and having wild parties and just living, relieved that their sons and daughters aren't on some front line somewhere getting killed.
lol I'll stop trying to convince you to like my favorite setting, though. :D
Agreed. Darksun has zero appeal to me at all.
I was actually a huge fan for the feel of Dragonlance...I really liked the big foe of the dragonarmies trying to take over the continent. It felt very tolkien-esque in that there was a great evil out there to oppose that was trying to take the whole world down. It just felt very epic. That's something that the realms never had going for it.
There are always going to be places of stability, such as Cormyr, and the evils are never on the same sheet of music. I love the realms for the lore, but as far as feel goes, I prefer dragonlance...at least how it was in 2e.
I think Netheril finally brought that, for me.
Did anyone see Brian Cortijo's work in his January 2012 Dragon/Dungeon articles on Cormyr?
Cormyr Royale: The Royal Court of the Forest Kingdom notes that under Alusair's rule her court is packed with strong women. Her mother the Dowager Dragon Queen Filfaeril Selazair, Myrmeen Lhal (former King's Lord of Arabel), Caladnei the Royal Magician and Laspeera Naerinth (aka Lady Eveningspire).
These Five Ladies, as the article notes, are the most powerful people in Cormyr, controlling the fates of courtiers, nobles and Purple Dragon officers, not to mention all of Cormyr itself.
This doesn't change things under King Foril's reign, of course, but at least we're getting more of a female presence in the Realms.
Also, there's so much we still don't know about the 4E Realms...female rulers and individuals in power can very well exist in the modern Realms, but we've just not seen them yet.
I did indeed see these articles, and was certainly interested to see the information contained therein...
...however your use of the present tense intrigues me. As you note, these high ladies (Alusair, Fee, Mreen, Caladnei and Mother Laspeera) were a part of Alusair's court. Not Foril's. As far as the here and now of the 4E Realms these Ladies are, well, Ladies that were.
What the article did, in fact do, with help from Ed's recent novels, was set the seal (as I remember, sadly I have not yet fully rebuilt my archives from the backups after a recent HD death) on the lifetimes of these Ladies. Are they still present and alive in the Royal court? (And yes, Alusair does seem to be a special case)
Of these five Ladies, four are some of my favourite characters in the Realms. Period. I never really warmed to Caladnei. But Queen Fee may well have been my favourite female character in the Realms, and Mother Laspeera, Mreen and Alusair weren't far behind. Where are they now?
Where are the female characters in the 4E Realms that took their place?
I agree, there is a lot that we don't know about the 4E Realms, but until we know it (and that begins to look less likely now that Next is hoving over the horizon) how can we set aside the view that the gender balance of the Rulers of the Realms has shifted?
The body of lore released during the 4E era of D&D therefore includes information covering more than just the slice of time noted in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide.
Much of what's in the pre-Spelllague Realms are things many people still like, as you note yourself regarding some of Cormyr's rulers.
The present tense is perfectly fine for the discussion because Realmslore is coming from two directions, so to speak.
I think it's in a false division to say in so many words "if Alusair's Court is like this, then Foril's Court must be like it too." (That's how I read "Where are the female characters in the 4E Realms that took their place?" Were you speaking of Cormyr or of the Realms in general?)
I don't want every one of Cormyr's Kings to have a Royal Court that's the same. That would be boring and very un-Realmsian to me.
I think until you have either A) a breakdown of every ruler and their court (or whatever approximates a royal court in some lesser parts of the Realms) or B) an extant body of 4E Realmslore equal in size and scope to that of the published Realms prior to 4E, I don't think you can say the gender balance has shifted for the entire setting.
After all, it's not as though the Five Ladies sprang from whole cloth. It took (real life) years for them to be developed and to grow. The 4E Realms hasn't been around long enough such that it can be held to that standard.
At best you can say the gender balance of power has shifted away from known rulers to some known and some unknown rulers. I think in Cormyr the balance has shifted somewhat, but we're still learning about the Amarunes, Nechelseiya's, Stornara's (Storms), Glathras, Jalessas, Deleiras and Narmitras of Cormyr. ;)
But the point remains that from just the bare handful of books we have, females have a greatly diminished prominence in the Realms. Certainly women haven't just rolled over and died, or gone greatly submissive somehow, but you wouldn't necessarily know that to look at who the big players are.
Are you sure you don't mean to say the Seven Sisters have greatly diminished prominence in the Realms?
The Simbul and Alustriel were leaders of nations.
Storm, Laeral and even Dove held great influence and positions of leadership in far-flung organizations.
Aside from Alusair (who ascended reluctantly and not immediately at the start of the Realms as a published product, but much later), who else of great nation/organization leading importance have we lost?
That's the whole point. They may well be there, but if we're not seeing them, does that really matter? Especially if you don't subscribe to DDI...
Like I said, you have a dearth of information for the pre-Plague Realms and you don't have the same for the post-Spellplague Realms.
A more accurate comparison might be to put the 4E FRCG next to the 3E FRCS or the Old Gray Box.
I don't think of it as a complaint about a lack of strong females so much as it is a complaint about things changing.
As an aside: the FRCG isn't without its share of female rulers, leaders and aspirants to power. Page 17 of the book tells us the leader of Loudwater is a woman.
Page 88, one of the two Simbarchs mentioned in the Aglarond section is a woman.
Page 89, Akanul: lead by Queen Arathane.
Page 101, Chessenta: ruled by the Warlord Shala Karanok.
Page 112: Shadowdale is ruled by Lady Addee Ulphor.
Page 122: In Elfharrow, the Abn'dak Tribe is led by a female chieftan named Seaspark.
Page 126: Erlkazar is secretly ruled by Saestra Karanok.
Page 132: Evermeet is governed by a Royal Council, which includes female members, including (but no limited to) Selsharra Durothil.
Page 146: the elf lady Gaerradh, wife of Methrammar, has been suggested as a replacement for her husband as leader of Luruar (the Silver Marches).
Page 153: Lady Erliza Daressin is the Viceroy of Westphal, rules over the island of Snowdown in the name of Amn.
Page 156: Myth Drannor is ruled by Coronal Ilselve Miritar, daughter of Seiveril Miritar.
Page 168: The Wychlaran hold great power in Rashemen and can remove Iron Lord Mangan Uruk should they so choose.
Page 178: Tethyr is ruled by Queen Anais. Her chief rival up until recently was not a man, but her half-sister Evonne Linden.
(Make no mistake: in the intervening pages one shouldn't assume only male rulers are listed. Not every listing tells you who the ruler of a given place or region is, nor do some places have individual rulers so much as councils, circles or gatherings under various other names, though of course some regions have no rulers at all.)
Is this evidence that females have been diminished in the 4E Realms? I don’t think it is.
I was more considering rulers of places like Berdusk, Scornubel, Elversult, Arabel, Saerloon, Impiltur, Tilverton, the Moonshaes, and Eveningstar, and Tethyr too now that you mention it. The various prominent female clerics and mages were also a consideration, from Neverwinter and Waterdeep to Raven's Bluff and Rasheman. Not to mention people like Aurora, prominent Harpers, and nutjobs like Mirabeta Selkirk.
Certainly there are some powerful and prominent females out there, but comparatively, they've certainly lessened in their prominence and mentioning. Of course we could just create them, that I'm well aware of, but in terms of places of importance (and I'd only consider a bare handful of those you mentioned actually important) they are distinctly lacking. You're talking about a dozen places... that isn't much really, especially compared to the sheer number of cities and nations in the Realms.
As I said, I don't think its some evil plot to rid the Realms of powerful women, its more like it just didn't occur to whoever was writing given sections to think to include women as much as they had been in previous editions. It's almost as if they just didn't think to even address gender balancing or issues by all appearances, whereas previously that had seemingly been a consideration.
I wonder if you aren't giving the number of locations I listed their due? We only have what the FRCG gives us; while its depth is lacking, it's breadth and scope is not.
The list I provided only touches on the major centers of power in the Realms. Yes there are places aplenty not mentioned in the FRCG, but that book was never intended to go into that level of detail.
Surely there is some merit in such a list of female rulers, yes?
That said, this caught my eye:
(and I'd only consider a bare handful of those you mentioned actually important)
This shows me, I think, that where I might look at everywhere you (and many a gamer, I daresay) will naturaly look to a limited number of places as being relevant to a fan of the Realms.
I think I see more where you're coming from.
?So when does this Rise thing happen any way? Is it like a hundred years after the Spellplague or something? ANd whatever happened to that Abysal Plauge thing that was supposed to change the Realms forever or some
The Abyssal Plague turned out to be minor, more like an Abyssal Common Cold. Don't get me wrong, it was still pretty bad: a lot of sneezing happened.
And the Rise of the Underdark is set exactly 100 years after the Spellplague. It'll begin with Elminster the Dark Elf delivering a speech in Menzoberranzan, right in the town square, inciting drow males to rise up against their sisters and mothers. At the end of the speech, Elminster will break out in the Cypress Hill rap song, with the surviving Seven Sisters as backup dancers.
It's an effort to appeal to the kewl kids who love the Drow.
Are we sure there isn't an unhealthy dose of Hipsterism infecting the online Realms fanbase?
Pssh... you wouldn't know Hip even if you broke one, grandpa.
So when does this Rise thing happen any way? Is it like a hundred years after the Spellplague or something? ANd whatever happened to that Abysal Plauge thing that was supposed to change the Realms forever or some
The Abyssal Plague turned out to be minor, more like an Abyssal Common Cold. Don't get me wrong, it was still pretty bad: a lot of sneezing happened.
And the Rise of the Underdark is set exactly 100 years after the Spellplague. It'll begin with Elminster the Dark Elf delivering a speech in Menzoberranzan, right in the town square, inciting drow males to rise up against their sisters and mothers. At the end of the speech, Elminster will break out in the Cypress Hill rap song, with the surviving Seven Sisters as backup dancers.
It's an effort to appeal to the kewl kids who love the Drow.
The abyssal common cold? so I got vaccinated for nothing? well that sucks.
But glad to hear that theyre keeping the timeline moving forward, I think thats important, things should always be happening in the Realms, things are supposed to change, so as long as its not a reboot or nothing, god i hate reboots, its like a total cop out, like you have no other stories left to tell? so you got to start over again? Knowhatimean?
And glad to hear Elminster's behind it all, it seems like hes always in the back seat when some RSE is going on, I mean during the Time of Troubles thing he didnt really do anything other than follow Cyric, Midnight, Kelemvor, and Adon around, and the whole Horde thing, why was it up to Azoun? Why didnt Elminster just fireball all their sorry **** and be done with it, and the Shades, WTF Elminster!? taking a nap or something, sure just let an entire freakin floating city full of Shades enter Faerun, i mean sure why not, and Where the Hells was he when the whole Spellplauge thing hit?
So its nice to see Elminster in the forefront for a change, and as a Drow!, Hell Yeah!!!
wait, wait, you made all that up didnt you?
The abyssal common cold? so I got vaccinated for nothing? well that sucks.
Indeed, much hype and terror over rather little.
But glad to hear that theyre keeping the timeline moving forward, I think thats important, things should always be happening in the Realms, things are supposed to change, so as long as its not a reboot or nothing, god i hate reboots, its like a total cop out, like you have no other stories left to tell? so you got to start over again? Knowhatimean?
Now now, there's never been a full reboot of the Realms. How do you know you won't like one if you've never seen one?
Don't judge the potential awesomeness of it by things like the JJ Abrams Star Trek Reboot. I mean, red matter, seriously?
And glad to hear Elminster's behind it all, it seems like hes always in the back seat when some RSE is going on, I mean during the Time of Troubles thing he didnt really do anything other than follow Cyric, Midnight, Kelemvor, and Adon around, and the whole Horde thing, why was it up to Azoun? Why didnt Elminster just fireball all their sorry **** and be done with it, and the Shades, WTF Elminster!? taking a nap or something, sure just let an entire freakin floating city full of Shades enter Faerun, i mean sure why not, and Where the Hells was he when the whole Spellplauge thing hit?
So its nice to see Elminster in the forefront for a change, and as a Drow!, Hell Yeah!!!
wait, wait, you made all that up didnt you?
Nope, totally true. He's gonna be a real drow in an upcoming novel. I'd put spoiler tags around that, but it's been plastered all over the intarwebz for quite a while now. Lolth's gonna make a power grab for the Mystra portfolio, but apparently that's not related to Elminsters upcoming drow-itude.
Cuz it's cool to be obsidian.
Pssh... you wouldn't know Hip even if you broke one, grandpa.
Hey no fair hinting I was around when Pabst got its Blue Ribbon!
Pssh... you wouldn't know Hip even if you broke one, grandpa.
Hey no fair hinting I was around when Pabst got its Blue Ribbon!
Huh... well, truth be told, I always suspected you were one of the undead. Never really thought you'd admit it.
The abyssal common cold? so I got vaccinated for nothing? well that sucks.
Indeed, much hype and terror over rather little.But glad to hear that theyre keeping the timeline moving forward, I think thats important, things should always be happening in the Realms, things are supposed to change, so as long as its not a reboot or nothing, god i hate reboots, its like a total cop out, like you have no other stories left to tell? so you got to start over again? Knowhatimean?Now now, there's never been a full reboot of the Realms. How do you know you won't like one if you've never seen one?
Don't judge the potential awesomeness of it by things like the JJ Abrams Star Trek Reboot. I mean, red matter, seriously?
ahem:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQmi_Be0Xbs
also, The new Star Trek is very good.
As to the notion of reboot, given the horrid results we've seen from the comic book industry, I'd be extremely hesitant to see one happen in the Realms. That and I don't trust WotC to do anything good with their reimagining of previous lore... gods know their evolution of said lore has been bad enough.
...also, The new Star Trek is very good.
Expensive and flashy with endless lens flares, and a plot that's actually worse than Star Trek V: Deity Quest, maybe. Good? Not really.
As to the notion of reboot, given the horrid results we've seen from the comic book industry, I'd be extremely hesitant to see one happen in the Realms.
I personally have no desire for a reboot... but if any D&D world decided to do one, I'd at least want there to be time-travel magic involved.
some twisted ideal of feeling that they have to respect the work of the authors.
fool of a took if you ask me.
really how many of us or them would care at all if the LP series was rebooted and castrated into never have happened?
but all said and done, all that can be done is to fix it and move on.
The new Star Trek was ok, but I personally think they changed up too much stuff, I mean killing off Spocks Mom? Now when he dies and comes back whos gonna be there to help him out when the computer askes him how he feels? Thats just not cool, not cool at all, So see im afraid theyd do something like that to the Realms if they rebooted, knowhatimean?
You mean like... what if they killed off Drizzt's mom, causing House do'Urden to be absorbed into another house, then that matron mother sacrifices baby Drizzt to Lolth? And Wulfgar and Cattie-Brie get married and have happy little barbarian warrior babies?
Though to be honest, I kinda like that take on Drizzt there Jorunhast... and I would like to see LP tossed. But as they say, I fear it would be a case of the cure being worse than the disease.
I'm gonna guess Uhura myself, instead of his mom... which I fail to see as even a remotely bad thing.
Though to be honest, I kinda like that take on Drizzt there Jorunhast... and I would like to see LP tossed. But as they say, I fear it would be a case of the cure being worse than the disease.
If they tossed it, perhaps. If they repaired its consequences, definitely not. Those novels completely missed what Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are about.
Just sayin'.
Silver, if you say the elf-god's name too many times, you risk summoning Nai.
Just sayin'.
That only works if you misspell it!
Curellon!
Coorelion!
Korelan!!
Silver, if you say the elf-god's name too many times, you risk summoning Nai.
Just sayin'.
That only works if you misspell it!
Curellon!
Coorelion!
Korelan!!
You're playing with fire and gasoline there...
They were but pawns on the board, Im sure if he wanted to, Corellon could put those pieces back into play.
Yeah, Corellon just let them to screw themselves and then grabbed the result of their work, without rising a single finger to help them or not even caring about their fate.
Anyway, that game should've never happened. Why would Eilistraee engage in power games about the fate of her ''children'' with Lolth? She's not about ''get Lolth'' and doesn't care at all about her pretty games. She's about opposition to the stupid injustice committed on ALL the Dark Elves millenia ago and to the oppression they are shackled to now, and about offering hope of redemption and -freedom- of life to them, by opening their mind to alternatives and not by slaughtering everything on her way. But that is all she did in the books. Also, why would a free spirit like her accept to be constrained to the her mother's rules when she could keep freeing the drow without doing so? That doesn't make much sense.
It would have made more sense to me if Vhaeraun was the one on the other side of the board for the control over the drow, and even so, he isn't the kind of character that would accept to play by the rules, especially his mother's. He should've kept disrupting Lolth's extremely precarious tyranny, encouraging rebellion among the ones tired of killing each other for no apparent reason (beside Lolth's interests), offering them the perspective of a new ''golden age'' for the drow. He would have never put his life at stake for no compelling reason. And he would have never charged like a madman into his sister's homeplane.
So, beside offering a totally unfitting portrayal of E and V, the events in the novels felt forced, random, with no real reason to justify why all of sudden those deities started slaughtering each other. That's why I wouldn't mind at all if they were tossed away and forgotten. They won't do it, but those novels, even assuming they were the best written books in the world, clearly added nothing to the setting and were a waste of events.
Anyway, OT; my apologies.
one must die util there is only lolth.
war of the spiderqueen and LP did the most harm to the setting and 4e didnt help either.... it only harmed it more.
they were only written to kill of each of the drow deities.
one must die util there is only lolth...
Lolth wants to be the Highlander?
there can be only lolth....
pull the legs off a spider
The new Star Trek was ok, but I personally think they changed up too much stuff, I mean killing off Spocks Mom? Now when he dies and comes back whos gonna be there to help him out when the computer askes him how he feels? Thats just not cool, not cool at all, So see im afraid theyd do something like that to the Realms if they rebooted, knowhatimean?
You mean like... what if they killed off Drizzt's mom, causing House do'Urden to be absorbed into another house, then that matron mother sacrifices baby Drizzt to Lolth? And Wulfgar and Cattie-Brie get married and have happy little barbarian warrior babies?
Yes, please?
...also, The new Star Trek is very good.
Expensive and flashy with endless lens flares, and a plot that's actually worse than Star Trek V: Deity Quest, maybe. Good? Not really.
First, the worst Star Trek movie is Nemesis. I'm not sure that's even a matter of opinion. It should probably be used as the basis for discussion of bad Star Trek.
Second, you're wrong. :P I could go on a whole rant about why I think you're wrong, but really, why?
Very little of Star Trek (any part of the franchise) is truly awe inspiringly good. Most of it ranges from watchable to pretty good, with a suitable chunk reaching into quite good, and a few episodes/movies reaching really, just fantastically good. The new Trek movie is in the upper quarter of that range.
Yeah, I was pretty pleased with the new Star Trek myself.
As to the notion of reboot, given the horrid results we've seen from the comic book industry, I'd be extremely hesitant to see one happen in the Realms. That and I don't trust WotC to do anything good with their reimagining of previous lore... gods know their evolution of said lore has been bad enough.
Word.
Hate a reboot.
Also, what the hell is an LP, outside of music? I hate acronyms...
I don't even store people in short hand. My friend John [lastname] is in my head as John [lastname], not John. I just can't do the acronym thing without active effort. It feels less precise, and I get twitchy...
About the whole spiderqueen thing, and all that.
Clearly, they did it for the lolth....[read with a lisp in mind]
[...]
Also, what the hell is an LP, outside of music? I hate acronyms...
I don't even store people in short hand. My friend John [lastname] is in my head as John [lastname], not John. I just can't do the acronym thing without active effort. It feels less precise, and I get twitchy...
LP stands for Lady Penitent.
About the whole spiderqueen thing, and all that.
Clearly, they did it for the lolth....[read with a lisp in mind]
They did it for the lolth indeed.
As to the Realms, I think now that I've learned to utterly ignore certain aspects of it, I'm much happier with it. Lady Penitent, War of the Spider Queen, and well most novels in general are definitely things that I'll be ignoring just to preserve what little is left of my sanity.
First, the worst Star Trek movie is Nemesis. I'm not sure that's even a matter of opinion. It should probably be used as the basis for discussion of bad Star Trek.
Oh lordy do you have your poles reversed. Nemesis is terrible, but it's leagues better than Kirk and Spock chasing after Spock's emotional brother who is on a quest to find God. There's just no comparison.
Second, you're wrong. :P I could go on a whole rant about why I think you're wrong, but really, why?
You're wrong, and you're wrong about my being wrong. I could go on a rant about why you're actually wrong, but really, why?
Very little of Star Trek (any part of the franchise) is truly awe inspiringly good. Most of it ranges from watchable to pretty good, with a suitable chunk reaching into quite good, and a few episodes/movies reaching really, just fantastically good.
Congrats, you've described television.
The new Trek movie is in the upper quarter of that range.
If you think bad plot, terrible dialogue, character transformations for no reason, lens flares, and a villain who is a complete idiot make the new Trek movie "good" then I totally understand why you think I'm wrong. But bad is bad, my friend, your opinion notwithstanding.
Reboot is really the only way to save the Realms at this point. Too many bad/awful/terrible things have been forced into it. Feel free to disagree, but I'm not wrong.
Reboot is really the only way to save the Realms at this point. Too many bad/awful/terrible things have been forced into it. Feel free to disagree, but I'm not wrong.
Well, no one is really wrong here. In my opinion, the 4th Ed. take turned the Realms into a different setting entirely. Perhaps one goals of D&D Next is to prove some level of subjectivity within the game. (Am I reading too far into this?) Everyone has a different take on the game and the goal of this version is to acknowledge that. Here, we have this issue playing out. Some people want the Returned Abeir Campaign Setting/Post-Spellplague FR to continue, some want the Setting to be revived as first envisioned by Mr. Greenwood himself, some want it to be the vast world of wonder filled with a variety of Earthy cultures (E.G. Maztica, Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur, etc...), and some want the tools to mix and match aspects of the Realms to paint their own setting with inspiration from Greenwood and others still intact. Why can't we support all of that? Whether by different eras, split universe, or what have you? Choosing one option probably won't work for the new edition to keep current fans while welcoming back former fans.
if you say the elf-god's name too many times, you risk summoning Nai.
Curellon!
Coorelion!
Korelan!!
Candyman
Candyman
Candyman
... Hastur
... Hastur
Maybe nothing happened this time, but the dangers of Hastur-baiting are nothing to be trifled with.
... Hastur
Maybe nothing happened this time, but the dangers of Hastur-baiting are nothing to be trifled with.
OMG!, Its Toki! Dude! I loved your book, Skwisgaar is ams
, awesome read man, awesome!
[...]
Also, what the hell is an LP, outside of music? I hate acronyms...
I don't even store people in short hand. My friend John [lastname] is in my head as John [lastname], not John. I just can't do the acronym thing without active effort. It feels less precise, and I get twitchy...
LP stands for Lady Penitent.
About the whole spiderqueen thing, and all that.
Clearly, they did it for the lolth....[read with a lisp in mind]
They did it for the lolth indeed.
Thanks! Like I said, I don't like acronyms. :P
First, the worst Star Trek movie is Nemesis. I'm not sure that's even a matter of opinion. It should probably be used as the basis for discussion of bad Star Trek.
Oh lordy do you have your poles reversed. Nemesis is terrible, but it's leagues better than Kirk and Spock chasing after Spock's emotional brother who is on a quest to find God. There's just no comparison.Second, you're wrong. :P I could go on a whole rant about why I think you're wrong, but really, why?
You're wrong, and you're wrong about my being wrong. I could go on a rant about why you're actually wrong, but really, why?Very little of Star Trek (any part of the franchise) is truly awe inspiringly good. Most of it ranges from watchable to pretty good, with a suitable chunk reaching into quite good, and a few episodes/movies reaching really, just fantastically good.
Congrats, you've described television.The new Trek movie is in the upper quarter of that range.
If you think bad plot, terrible dialogue, character transformations for no reason, lens flares, and a villain who is a complete idiot make the new Trek movie "good" then I totally understand why you think I'm wrong. But bad is bad, my friend, your opinion notwithstanding.
Reboot is really the only way to save the Realms at this point. Too many bad/awful/terrible things have been forced into it. Feel free to disagree, but I'm not wrong.
Lol, it's fun that you took my joking snarky arrogance and seem to actually think that anyone that disagrees with you is just flat out wrong.
The dialogue is good, the plot is solid, there's no character transformations in that movie, really. Everyone does things that are within their character as set up from the beginning. The villain isn't an idiot, he's a phsycologically broken emotional wreck on a revenge mission.
And lens flares? Really? Ok you don't like them, that doesn't make them bad. Abrams got a little carried away (by his own admission), but he's exactly right in the quality that it adds to the movie.*
*http://io9.com/5230278/jj-abrams-admits-star-trek-lens-flares-are-ridiculous
And nemesis is just fracking terrible. At least the god movie had some entertaining bits, and could be watched if you just didn't take it seriously (unfortunate that they nixed the original idea of it actually being God. Would have been much more interesting. ) Nemesis doesn't even have that going for it. And they killed Data in that piece of crap movie, which just made it worse. Kill him in a good movie, at least.
remember....
Lol, it's fun that you took my joking snarky arrogance and seem to actually think that anyone that disagrees with you is just flat out wrong.
Hey, you are flat-out wrong, it's terrible. But it's totally ok if you liked it anyway.
...The villain isn't an idiot, he's a phsycologically broken emotional wreck on a revenge mission.
He waited years and years for old Spock to appear. In all that time, he didn't cool off... and it never occured to him that he could go warn Romulus, stop the whole failed experiment? He sat there, just raging, for years. That's idiocy.
what it is is dementia or some other form of being nutso.... he was broke by the whole thing and no longer was in the right mindset. He could have, yes just like his crew could have axed him and warned star fleet and romulus that the experiment would fail to lack of timing too and yet they didnt. they were all to afraid of him for it.
he spent too much time in madness and bowed down to the great and powerful Sheogorath and instead of what happened , where am I and what time is it, he spent my home is dead, my ife is dead, my kids are dead, he went REVENGE.....
insane he was.... insane he died..... in the end, whatever intelligence that could of been used to save Romulus was lost, becuase he went mad and his crew was chicken.....
So now by the will of Lord AO for the Realms to live long and prosper, can we stop wit hthe star trek references. send it to where it belongs to the ott forum.
That's idiocy.
From the human point of view, sure.
But for a supra-emotional beings like Romulans with brains different than humans, that kind of behavior isn't crazy, it's spot on. Nero is both at once absolutely disciplined and entirely unhinged.
That's the kind of mind that can maintain control for decades and kill worlds.
Good movie, IMO. I'm excited to see the next one.
cmon guys, lets not turn this into an Star Trek argument! Besides, everyone knows Star Wars is soooo much better!
the force is with this one as all other logic is so bland.
Lol, it's fun that you took my joking snarky arrogance and seem to actually think that anyone that disagrees with you is just flat out wrong.
Hey, you are flat-out wrong, it's terrible. But it's totally ok if you liked it anyway....The villain isn't an idiot, he's a phsycologically broken emotional wreck on a revenge mission.
He waited years and years for old Spock to appear. In all that time, he didn't cool off... and it never occured to him that he could go warn Romulus, stop the whole failed experiment? He sat there, just raging, for years. That's idiocy.
Um...that's insanity. That's the product of a mind that has been broken by emotional trauma, and has developed an obsessive need, which is expressed in this case by a revenge quest. He's so broken, psychologically, that he can't deal with the fact that the destruction of his planet hasn't happened yet. He literally cannot process that information.
It's not that he's too stupid to understand it, it's that his obsessive need for revenge won't allow him to even process the information in any way except to lash out at the suggestion.
That's idiocy.
From the human point of view, sure.
But for a supra-emotional beings like Romulans with brains different than humans, that kind of behavior isn't crazy, it's spot on. Nero is both at once absolutely disciplined and entirely unhinged.
That's the kind of mind that can maintain control for decades and kill worlds.
Good movie, IMO. I'm excited to see the next one.
This, too. Romulans, like Vulcans, experience emotion in a more intense way than humans do. Romulans are less in control in a lot of ways, but in others just as in control. They allow their emotions to inform their decisions, but retain discipline in spite of that.
The biggest issue with the movie is the red matter. One can imagine a substance that could create a black hole. You can imagine that. It's not too crazy. But that substance would work just as well on the surface of the world as at it's core.
The rest of the movie is great.
also, guys, don't compare Star Trek and Star Wars. Star Wars isn't science fiction, it's fantasy in space.
Damnit, now you guys got me doin it too!!
Go Drow!
The pleasure, I think, comes from the fact that we have so much free time to define and debate the trivialities of imaginary worlds.
And yes: go Drow!
I hope the rise of the Underdark is interesting, but not too interesting, if you know what I mean.
gonna cut his head off and stick it on a pig pole.
and then animate his cadaver
Also, I hope it gets E and V back in action, they really got a totally undeserved short end of the stick.
Yes Go DRow or go home and death to Corellon LArethian.
gonna cut his head off and stick it on a pig pole.
and then animate his cadaver
Wow, a bit exaggerated, but he kinda deserves it for dooming an entire race for the lulz and not doing anything to help his son and daughter vs Lolth to undo the idiocy that HE contributed to create (and not even giving a crap about their fate).
Star Wars not science fiction!? **** if it wasnt for the success of Star Wars there probably wouldnt have been a Star Trek movie, And aside from that, Wars added alot to the genre, like dirty ships, before that in moves and tv space ships always looked brand new and shiny, Lucas showed us ships that were far more realistic looking, they looked like theyd been used, like they were real working ships, knowhatimean, Star Wars really brought an element of gritty realism that was really lacking in other Science Fiction movies.
Damnit, now you guys got me doin it too!!
Go Drow!
I can argue with none of that. But it's still fantasy in space. :P
"Leia is my sister!"
Thats not Darth Vader, it was Luke's evil twin all along!!
Yeah its a total Soap Opera, I'll give you that.
But still, Id take a Lightsaber over a Phaser any day!
I've seen it referred to as Space Opera... and soap opera set in space seems to describe it just as well as anything else I've ever seen. Not really science fiction though, at least not as I would define it.
Don't get me wrong, I love Star Wars, and Star Trek, and really, it's a combination of sci fi and fantasy. I do think it's more fantasy than sci fi, though.