Prerequisites: Elf, can only get proficiency with simple weapons, cloth, leater and hide armor as starting feats
Natural Born Lythari Graft
Regeneration 5 (if the lythari takes damage from a silver weapon, its regeneration doesn’t function on its next turn)
Immune moon frenzy
Skills +4 bonus to Perception, a lythari is considered trained in Arcana and having a +4 bonus for the purpose of finding fey crossings.
Speed (8 in wolf form)
Change Shape (minor; at-will) ✦ Polymorph
A lythari can alter its physical form to appear as a gray wolf. In wolf form it can only use racial powers and its bite attack.
Bite (standard; at-will)
Strength + 2 vs. AC or Dexterity + 2 vs. AC; 1d6 + Strength or Dexterity modifier, and the target takes ongoing damage 5 (save ends).
Increase to Strength + 4 vs. AC; 1d6 + Strength or Dexterity modifier at 11th level and to Strength +6 vs. AC 2d6 + Strength or Dexterity modifier at 21st level. This attack counts as a melee basic attack.
Lythari Transformation
Born lythari know a ritual that allows them to give other willing elves, eladrin or drow the Mark of the Lythari graft.
Fey Passage
Lythari know the Fey Passage ritual and don't pay the component cost when using it.
Prerequisites: Level 10, Elf, Eladrin or Drow
Mark of the Lythari Graft
Regeneration 5 (if the lythari takes damage from a silver weapon, its regeneration doesn’t function on its next turn)
Immune moon frenzy
Skills +4 bonus to Perception
Speed (8 in wolf form)
Change Shape (minor; at-will) ✦ Polymorph
A lythari can alter its physical form to appear as a gray wolf. In wolf form it can only use racial powers and its bite attack.
Bite (standard; at-will)
Strength + 2 vs. AC or Dexterity + 2 vs. AC; 1d6 + Strength or Dexterity modifier, and the target takes ongoing damage 5 (save ends).
Increase to Strength + 4 vs. AC; 1d6 + Strength or Dexterity modifier at 11th level and to Strength +6 vs. AC 2d6 + Strength or Dexterity modifier at 21st level. This attack counts as a melee basic attack.
I'm not sure if the level requirement for Mark of the Lythari is enough, and for born lythari I'm thinking about halving healing surges up to level 10.
-Also, are you looking to just give them updated stats, or are you wanting to make a more accurate-to-the-setting version of the race, with stats? Because, there's some stuff that none of the (2e or 3e) write-ups incorporated into stats.
-4e has rules for 'Shifters', which are Lycanthropic-like transformers, right? I'm 99.9% sure that's the case, but since I don't have any of the books, I can't confirm it. Anyway, concerning them, see what WotC did with the race, to preserve game balance, and whatever.
Shifters have a very limited shapechanging ability (Encounter) that only works when they are bloodied called Longtooth Shifting for one subrace (+2 damage until end of encounter and Regneration 2-6 while bloodied) and Razorclaw Shifting for the other (+2 speed and +1 to AC and Reflex). I always compare them to a weak version of X-Men's Wolverine. But it's absolutely not comparable to what Lythari are supposed to be, and it doesn't solve the issue that Lythari can transfer their lycanthropy to others.
-Also, are you looking to just give them updated stats, or are you wanting to make a more accurate-to-the-setting version of the race, with stats? Because, there's some stuff that none of the (2e or 3e) write-ups incorporated into stats.
I'm trying to make a accurate-to-the-setting version with balanced stats to make them playable and at least three types of usable NPC's. I read everything about lythari that I could find and thought about balancing 1st-level lythari by taking away all proficiencies with metal arms and armor, but that doesn't work for some classes. I would be grateful for any help to bring them nearer to what they're supposed to be.
Shifters have a very limited shapechanging ability (Encounter) that only works when they are bloodied called Longtooth Shifting for one subrace (+2 damage until end of encounter and Regneration 2-6 while bloodied) and Razorclaw Shifting for the other (+2 speed and +1 to AC and Reflex). I always compare them to a weak version of X-Men's Wolverine. But it's absolutely not comparable to what Lythari are supposed to be, and it doesn't solve the issue that Lythari can transfer their lycanthropy to others.
-Okay, well, all I knew was that they're Lycanthrope-like. Apparently, they suck.
-Why are you mentioning 'Grafts'? The only use of the term I know comes from artificially attaching things from Undead, or Illithid, or Demons, or whatever. I think the term has changed in meaning?
-Druids are in 4e, right? And, they can shapechange? How do the rules work with them?
I'm trying to make a accurate-to-the-setting version with balanced stats to make them playable and at least three types of usable NPC's. I read everything about lythari that I could find and thought about balancing 1st-level lythari by taking away all proficiencies with metal arms and armor, but that doesn't work for some classes. I would be grateful for any help to bring them nearer to what they're supposed to be.
-Alright, so you're making accurate-to-the-setting Lythari. First, let me mention one thing: If your trying to make accurate-to-their-portray things as mechanics, you're not going to get balanced things. Despite people trying their hardest, not all races "are created equally". Avariel, for example, have wings, which are relatively harmless in the scheme of things, but apparently cause a boatload of problems when turning things into D&D stats where races need to, more or less, be approximate to each other.
-Anyway, for accurate Lythari, yes, they would not be proficient with most crafted weapons and armors, other than certain simple things, a lot like Druids in 3e (Don't know about them in 4e, and what they are/aren't limited to). They'd get a heavy bonus to their Spot skill (or, the 4e equivalent), as well as their Knowledge: The Planes skill (or, the 4e equivalent). Just like dogs have senses that are a lot keener than ours, Lythari have senses that are a lot keener than Elves, that they use to locate portals and weak planar boundaries, which (effectively) allows them to "teleport". This could also be explained mechanically using the 'Fey Step' ability, or whatever it is, that Eladrin have, that lets them go to/from the Plane of Faerie; only, in the case of the Lythari, it lets them go to/from their Lythari Dens.
I like druids in 4E, even though they lost their healing skills if i recall correctly... Basically now you either play a feral druid (specializing in forms and dealing damage) or a balance druid (some kind of controller, rooting enemies and blasting them with winds and thunder)...
Sorry for the WoW terms, but meh, its basically that.
I would use the Shifters as a base template for the Lythari. You could make up your own "shift" benefits and make it also an encounter power. Maybe make it a stance that gives some ability bonuses and natural weapons...
Druids in 4E have the ability to wildshape at will into animal forms. Its basically a flavor power, cause as far as i recall, it gives no in-game benefits. You are stil medium size, and your game stats dont change (same movement, abilities etc). To be in animal form is just a requisite to be able to use druid powers that have the "beast form" keyword.
-That would likely work with a Lythari. Their intelligence, strength, all of that, that should all stay the same, whether in wolf form, or biped form.
-Okay, well, all I knew was that they're Lycanthrope-like. Apparently, they suck.
Interesting flavour, uninteresting rules, so probably yes.:D
-Why are you mentioning 'Grafts'? The only use of the term I know comes from artificially attaching things from Undead, or Illithid, or Demons, or whatever. I think the term has changed in meaning?
It's still used for those things, they were introduced in Open Grave that way. However since the Ecology of the Sharn article in dragon it has also meant templates without massive hitpoint bonus.
-Druids are in 4e, right? And, they can shapechange? How do the rules work with them?
It's as LohnPondai describes. I looked at them and the werewolves and decided to go more in the direction of the werewolf, because Lythari were always more like them than wildshaping druids. Druids don't get faster in wildshape and as an attack power I would have to give them a druid one. But druid beast form powers can add the implement bonus of their totem to beast form powers while Lythari wouldn't hit anymore at high levels. The other option was giving them the ability to use their weapons in wolf form, or giving them that of a werewolf and make it scaling with the tiers.
-Alright, so you're making accurate-to-the-setting Lythari. First, let me mention one thing: If your trying to make accurate-to-their-portray things as mechanics, you're not going to get balanced things. Despite people trying their hardest, not all races "are created equally". Avariel, for example, have wings, which are relatively harmless in the scheme of things, but apparently cause a boatload of problems when turning things into D&D stats where races need to, more or less, be approximate to each other.
That's the point were D&D should learn from the World of Darkness, but unfortunately they decided to go with complete equality in 4E. But still as a graft it will unbalance things.:D
-Anyway, for accurate Lythari, yes, they would not be proficient with most crafted weapons and armors, other than certain simple things, a lot like Druids in 3e (Don't know about them in 4e, and what they are/aren't limited to).
Simple Melee and Simple Ranged weapons, Cloth, Leather and Hide armor. But no limitations on what they can learn.
They'd get a heavy bonus to their Spot skill (or, the 4e equivalent), as well as their Knowledge: The Planes skill (or, the 4e equivalent). Just like dogs have senses that are a lot keener than ours, Lythari have senses that are a lot keener than Elves, that they use to locate portals and weak planar boundaries, which (effectively) allows them to "teleport". This could also be explained mechanically using the 'Fey Step' ability, or whatever it is, that Eladrin have, that lets them go to/from the Plane of Faerie; only, in the case of the Lythari, it lets them go to/from their Lythari Dens.
Perception is the new Spot. There isn't a Knowledge: The Planes skill anymore, I believe locating portals uses the Arcana skill, at least I can't find a necessary ritual for that right now. Fey Step teleports you through the Feywild but you can't stay there. However there is a ritual called "Fey Passage" (needs to be used at a fey crossing) that already has the following special rule:
"Special: Eladrin have a special connection to the
Feywild. Consequently, an eladrin who has mastered
this ritual or performs it from a scroll does not pay the
component cost."
I see no problem letting that apply to Lythari and give them the ritual for free.
I'll update the rules later today, but I have one question: Do the things you mentioned apply to all Lythari or only to born Lythari?
It's still used for those things, they were introduced in Open Grave that way. However since the Ecology of the Sharn article in dragon it has also meant templates without massive hitpoint bonus.
-Oh, alright. Another case of WotC reusing words that already have meanings for other things, I guess.
Simple Melee and Simple Ranged weapons, Cloth, Leather and Hide armor. But no limitations on what they can learn.
-That sounds right. If they choose to, they could learn other things, and there should be no limitations on that. It's just that, most don't ever bother.
Perception is the new Spot. There isn't a Knowledge: The Planes skill anymore, I believe locating portals uses the Arcana skill, at least I can't find a necessary ritual for that right now. Fey Step teleports you through the Feywild but you can't stay there. However there is a ritual called "Fey Passage" (needs to be used at a fey crossing) that already has the following special rule:
"Special: Eladrin have a special connection to the
Feywild. Consequently, an eladrin who has mastered
this ritual or performs it from a scroll does not pay the
component cost."
I see no problem letting that apply to Lythari and give them the ritual for free.
-A 'Fey Crossing' would be a portal to the Plane of Faerie, right? In that case, that'd work perfectly, since what Lythari do, they "sniff out" portals, and go through them. They're so proficient in doing so that, to many people, they seem to have the ability to Plane Shift. The Feystep ability is, more or less Planeshifting, but this one is going to a portal and then Planeshifting, which is much more accurate. How long does the ritual take? With the Lythari, it takes them a matter of seconds, to utilize portals and "disappear". If the ritual takes too long, is there a "Quicken Ritual" ability or something like that, that they can get for it?
I'll update the rules later today, but I have one question: Do the things you mentioned apply to all Lythari or only to born Lythari?
-Both, though, obviously, the ones who turned into Lythari later in life should retain any knowledge and abilities that they had (like weapon proficiencies) before their transformation.
-A 'Fey Crossing' would be a portal to the Plane of Faerie, right? In that case, that'd work perfectly, since what Lythari do, they "sniff out" portals, and go through them. They're so proficient in doing so that, to many people, they seem to have the ability to Plane Shift. The Feystep ability is, more or less Planeshifting, but this one is going to a portal and then Planeshifting, which is much more accurate. How long does the ritual take? With the Lythari, it takes them a matter of seconds, to utilize portals and "disappear". If the ritual takes too long, is there a "Quicken Ritual" ability or something like that, that they can get for it?
The ritual takes 10 minutes like most rituals in 4E do. Planeshift only works with a vehicle that has a navigation focus and shifting into the Elemental Chaos takes 1 hour.:D I think the only quickening ritual abilities I saw were either epic or itembound. Couldn't the longer time be associated with the changes of the spellplague? By the way fey crossings can also be activated by a codephrase and Lythari probably know those in areas they are familiar with.
-Both, though, obviously, the ones who turned into Lythari later in life should retain any knowledge and abilities that they had (like weapon proficiencies) before their transformation.
So they can sniff out portals to Faerie too? Nice.
But I'm wondering if Lythari that are made later in life are able to transfer it. Because if someone becomes a Lythari and later leaves them again he could found his own tribe by making a bunch of other elves Lythari, without any cultural disadvantages.The ritual takes 10 minutes like most rituals in 4E do. Planeshift only works with a vehicle that has a navigation focus and shifting into the Elemental Chaos takes 1 hour.:D I think the only quickening ritual abilities I saw were either epic or itembound. Couldn't the longer time be associated with the changes of the spellplague? By the way fey crossings can also be activated by a codephrase and Lythari probably know those in areas they are familiar with.
So they can sniff out portals to Faerie too? Nice.
-I don't use 4e, so I'm just using terms from 3e that I know, to describe what I'm getting at. ;)
-The ten minutes isn't a good thing. Lythari can't physically, on their own, "teleport/plane shift/plane hop/whatever" to their dens via an ability that they have on their own. Rather, with their extremely keen senses, they "sniff out" portals that exist, or weakened planar boundaries, or whatever else, and travel via those preexisting places. If others learned of these sites, they'd be able to use them. Like dogs have noses that are like 100 times more sensitive than our own, a Lythari's "portal sense" is like 100 times more sensitive than an Elf's. We know that, it only takes a moment or so, once a Lythari knows where a portal is, to use it, and teleport away to their homes.
-In theory, sure you can blame the Spellplague for the change, but I don't like it, for two reasons. One, the Spellplague is being used as an explanation for everything. Two, altering things to ensure that the mechanics match what already exists isn't being true to the Lythari. It's, instead of tailoring the mechanics matching the race, as I think is optimum D&D world building, it's tailoring the race to match the mechanics, which I think is poor D&D world building. If, via the Spellplague, we change the entire Lythari race such that they can't "instantly teleport", why not change the Avariel race, to make them not have wings anymore, or the entire Dragon race, to make them not be able to breathe some kind of breath weapon any more, or some other fundamental change in the race? That, when you get down to it, is why I don't like that; it's altering some facet of the race (or "no good reason").
-The ten minutes isn't a good thing. Lythari can't physically, on their own, "teleport/plane shift/plane hop/whatever" to their dens via an ability that they have on their own. Rather, with their extremely keen senses, they "sniff out" portals that exist, or weakened planar boundaries, or whatever else, and travel via those preexisting places. If others learned of these sites, they'd be able to use them. Like dogs have noses that are like 100 times more sensitive than our own, a Lythari's "portal sense" is like 100 times more sensitive than an Elf's. We know that, it only takes a moment or so, once a Lythari knows where a portal is, to use it, and teleport away to their homes.
Well, up to now there are three ways to use fey crossings, a key phrase that opens it instantly, it opens on its own because of a star constellation or something like that or you use the ritual. Maybe they could get an ability to analyse a feycrossing and get the key phrase with an Arcana check?
-In theory, sure you can blame the Spellplague for the change, but I don't like it, for two reasons. One, the Spellplague is being used as an explanation for everything. Two, altering things to ensure that the mechanics match what already exists isn't being true to the Lythari. It's, instead of tailoring the mechanics matching the race, as I think is optimum D&D world building, it's tailoring the race to match the mechanics, which I think is poor D&D world building. If, via the Spellplague, we change the entire Lythari race such that they can't "instantly teleport", why not change the Avariel race, to make them not have wings anymore, or the entire Dragon race, to make them not be able to breathe some kind of breath weapon any more, or some other fundamental change in the race? That, when you get down to it, is why I don't like that; it's altering some facet of the race (or "no good reason").
The spellplague has changed a lot of things, and if you try to convert something to 4E there's often no way to deny that. Everything that had to do with magic in the FR is messed up, for example gods are no longer able to take the spellcasting of their servants away. They infuse them once with power when they reach level 1 and after that they are stuck with them or ask other servants to hunt them down.
But I think it could be possible to do something for the Lythari with a special ability. Still those who try to follow one would not be able to go straight through the same portal but had to use Fey Passage if the Lythari didn't tell them.
Well, up to now there are three ways to use fey crossings, a key phrase that opens it instantly, it opens on its own because of a star constellation or something like that or you use the ritual. Maybe they could get an ability to analyse a feycrossing and get the key phrase with an Arcana check?
-That works, them using a Knowledge: Arcana check to "know" the keyword to open and activate the portal. That also ties back to, like I said at the beginning, some kind of bonus to the skill to indicate them being able to utilize the portals with such ease. Maybe something like:
Lythari Knowledge: Lythari gain a +5 bonus to all Search checks made to find the location of an existing portal, and a +5 bonus to all Arcana checks made to activate the portal. Note: Lythari can only activate portals in this manner to travel to and from their dens.
The spellplague has changed a lot of things, and if you try to convert something to 4E there's often no way to deny that. Everything that had to do with magic in the FR is messed up, for example gods are no longer able to take the spellcasting of their servants away. They infuse them once with power when they reach level 1 and after that they are stuck with them or ask other servants to hunt them down.
But I think it could be possible to do something for the Lythari with a special ability. Still those who try to follow one would not be able to go straight through the same portal but had to use Fey Passage if the Lythari didn't tell them.
-Like I said, I am of the opinion that changing things (for no good reason) for the sake of making the setting match the mechanics is ultimately bad for the setting. Just my opinion, you can, of course, think and do as you like.
Note: Lythari can only activate portals in this manner to travel to and from their dens.
??? If it's about "their" dens why an extra ability? That's just common knowledge for them like knowing where to find the blacksmith in his hometown is for any other character.
-Like I said, I am of the opinion that changing things (for no good reason) for the sake of making the setting match the mechanics is ultimately bad for the setting. Just my opinion, you can, of course, think and do as you like.
I think that the spellplague was a really dumb idea. Nothing against shaking the Reams up a bit and an explanation for some rule changes is also nice, but they went a few planes of existence too far. However, now it has happened, and lots of things have changed, that simply can't be denied. Sometimes you can work around a change, but sometimes not.
What exactly do you mean by
??? If it's about "their" dens why an extra ability? That's just common knowledge for them like knowing where to find the blacksmith in his hometown is for any other character.
-A Lythari can't "teleport" from some place on the Material Plane to the Astral Plane using the portals that exist all over Faerûn. A Lythari travels to-and-from using portals that go from the Material Plane to their homeplanes, the enigmatic Lythari dens, which may or may not be located on, or have any connections to the Plane of Faerie. They get around "instantaneously" using the same method of transportation, going from the Wealdath to their dens, and then from their dens to Evermeet. They're always going back to their dens, though.
-Clearer now? The ability/skill bonus/whatever should be limited only to the ability to travel from the Material Plane to their dens, and should not enable the Lythari to travel from the Material Plane to the Plane of Fire, or from the Plane of Fire to the Plane of Water, or whatever else.
What's the average time a Lythari needs to find such a portal?
Can you find those portals everywhere on Faerun or are there places where you can't find them like for example cities?
Here's the mechanic of an epic destiny that sounds similarly just a lot more powerful:
Dark Road (24th level): You can walk to any destination you desire in a single uninterrupted 24-hour period of walking. No matter how distant the location, or how many planes separate you from it, you reach the destination 24 hours after you begin, finding shortcuts, portals or other modes of transport previously unknown to you. You do not require any rest, food, or water during this travel, except to recharge powers and regain healing surges. During your journey, you are safe from hazards, attacks, and other dangers.
When choosing your destination, you must be specific. If your destination is within a structure such as a particular room within a castle, the long walk leads you to the structures main entrance, not inside the structure.
You can choose to be accompanied by a number of characters equal to 5+ your Wisdom modifier, all of whom share the benefit of this class feature.
Could the Lythari ability be similar with for example 10 minutes to reach the den from a forest and 10 minutes to a specific forest from the den?
What's the average time a Lythari needs to find such a portal?
Can you find those portals everywhere on Faerun or are there places where you can't find them like for example cities?
-There isn't one. Faerûn is said to be inundated with portals all over the place (including ones that are so faint that most don't even realize they exist, which are the ones that Lythari use, because of their keen senses and ability to detect these portals). So, there is no exact specific interval, in terms of distance and time, in which portals are spaced.
-When Ganamede (the Lythari protagonist in Silver Shadows) utilizes a portal to teleport, it activates and he disappears instantly, giving the illusion that Lythari can teleport/plane shift. In terms of when he utilizes a portal to teleport, it's practically at will, where ever he is, lending to my belief that there are "ambient" portals everywhere, at varying "frequencies", and that the Lythari senses are just good enough to detect those at "lower frequencies".
Here's the mechanic of an epic destiny that sounds similarly just a lot more powerful:
Dark Road (24th level): You can walk to any destination you desire in a single uninterrupted 24-hour period of walking. No matter how distant the location, or how many planes separate you from it, you reach the destination 24 hours after you begin, finding shortcuts, portals or other modes of transport previously unknown to you. You do not require any rest, food, or water during this travel, except to recharge powers and regain healing surges. During your journey, you are safe from hazards, attacks, and other dangers.
When choosing your destination, you must be specific. If your destination is within a structure such as a particular room within a castle, the long walk leads you to the structures main entrance, not inside the structure.
You can choose to be accompanied by a number of characters equal to 5+ your Wisdom modifier, all of whom share the benefit of this class feature.
Could the Lythari ability be similar with for example 10 minutes to reach the den from a forest and 10 minutes to a specific forest from the den?
-Eh, yes and no. The examples we have of Lythari utilizing portals, it's practically instantaneous, them going from one point to their dens, and then from their dens to another point.
-Like it or not, that's what the Lythari race is, and what they do. You said you want to make the stats you are creating accurate-to-the-setting: That, then, is something you are going to have to take into account, their ability to travel portals and such.
-As a side note, DO NOT rely on the Forgotten Realms Wiki for anything, EVER. It is so missing information, and containing incorrect, or opposing information, at times, it is not worth even using as a reference to find material on the source in actual texts and/or sourcebooks.
-Like it or not, that's what the Lythari race is, and what they do. You said you want to make the stats you are creating accurate-to-the-setting: That, then, is something you are going to have to take into account, their ability to travel portals and such.
There has to be a line. Lythari had a lot of rules, but please show me the entry where it says that they can instantly vanish by sticking their nose in the air. Just because someone wrote it in a novel doesn't make it automatically good for the setting. If we follow novels instead of rules Drizzt has 20 in every stat and Tyr 3 in Wisdom and Intelligence. Novels have to follow the rules to a certain extent and if the authors don't manage to do that I ignore their stuff.
-As a side note, DO NOT rely on the Forgotten Realms Wiki for anything, EVER. It is so missing information, and containing incorrect, or opposing information, at times, it is not worth even using as a reference to find material on the source in actual texts and/or sourcebooks.
I don't rely on it, I just looked after Elves of Evermeet and Monsters of Faerun if there was anything else to look at.
There has to be a line. Lythari had a lot of rules, but please show me the entry where it says that they can instantly vanish by sticking their nose in the air. Just because someone wrote it in a novel doesn't make it automatically good for the setting. If we follow novels instead of rules Drizzt has 20 in every stat and Tyr 3 in Wisdom and Intelligence. Novels have to follow the rules to a certain extent and if the authors don't manage to do that I ignore their stuff.
-Lythari in the Forgotten Realms, possess the ability to teleport via utilizing portals that exist across the planet. This is canon, established in Silver Shadows and Evermeet: Island of Elves. You can't arbitrarily ignore it as much as you can ignore the stat block of Lythari in a sourcebook. You stated that you want to make accurate-to-the-setting Lythari. You can't just arbitrarily ignore stuff you don't like if you're doing that. It's part of what the race is, and what the race can do.
If that means that my rules for the Lythari won't be accurate-to-the-setting for you I can live with that. I guess the moment someone writes that Sun Elves can teleport at will the Eladrin of the PHB will be non-canon too because they can only teleport once every 5 minutes.
So, if somebody writes in an official FR novel that a silver dragon spits green fire this means that everybody has to change the breath weapon of silver dragons in his game or add the one with green fire?
-That specific Silver Dragon, anyway. You seem to have the notion that what happens in novels is irrelevant. In other settings, such as Eberron, this might be the case, but in the Forgotten Realms, now and since the setting debuted, novels have been canon, and one of the principle sources of Realmslore.
Sorry, but first of all this is a setting for an RPG with rules, not Harry Potter where the author can introduce whatever she likes.
-The Forgotten Realms is a setting in which RPG products and novel events tell the tale of the world. Novels are just as canon as RPG booklets. Given the fact that the Forgotten Realms began as a world that was created for Ed Greenwood to set short stories as a little kid, and the fact that novels reach a broader and wider audience, I would say that the opposite is true, that the Forgotten Realms is a world in which literature takes prominence over RPG materials. Of course, both are given equal weight, novels and RPG materials.
Additionally it's completely illogical. If those portals would exist some crazy mage would have made a spell to find them, conquered the Lythari dens wherever they are and used them as a staging ground for an army that can reach any place on Faerun within seconds.
-It's not illogical. I'd suggest taking a look at information concerning both Lythari and portals/gates in the Forgotten Realms before making such statements. Lythari are believed by most to be myths, as substantiated by the reactions of the Elves of the Wealdath in Silver Shadows. And, as we already know as per the FRCS, and previous sources, Abeir-Toril is inundated with portals/gates leading to various place, most of which are undiscovered, unknown, and unprotected. The tip of the iceberg are the portals/gates that are known to exist, and are "owned" by a group, watching over it to ensure that they possess use of it. It is completely canon that portals exist all across the planet, that Lythari exist, that Lythari utilize portals, and yet, the situation you created has not occurred.
If that means that my rules for the Lythari won't be accurate-to-the-setting for you I can live with that. I guess the moment someone writes that Sun Elves can teleport at will the Eladrin of the PHB will be non-canon too because they can only teleport once every 5 minutes.
-Not including the Lythari ability to utilize portals to teleport to/from their dens will indeed make any stats made up for the race diminished, as they will not be portraying Lythari properly, correct. Such stats won't be not accurate-to-the-setting enough not to me, but in general: they won't be accurate-to-the-setting, period, in ignoring fundamental abilities the race possesses, as substantiated in Forgotten Realms canon. Ultimatley, you can do what you like, but I, personally, don't see the purpose of updating the stats of the race if you're not going to do it accurate to what they can do. I'd be like making stats for Duergar, but ignoring Psionics. I don't think that using the rules to do things like update with regards to balance include wholesale ignoring things, but rather, reworking the rules to be accurate.
-The 'Eladrin' of the PHB aren't Forgotten Realms canon to begin with, since the PHB is not Forgotten Realms specific. The PHB is "generic world canon", and is not Forgotten Realms canon. So long as the Forgotten Realms toe the line of the 4e PHB, as they did in 3e, and 2e, materials found within will be easily implemented, but never were such materials canon. The Forgotten Realms changed to fit those materials; they didn't automatically become canon within the context of the setting. Using the example of 'Eladrin', in the Forgotten Realms, Sun Elves, Moon Elves and Star Elves didn't get the ability to use the teleportational abilities utilized by 'Eladrin' in 4e until the setting changed (Spellplague) to accommodate the new changes in the rules, giving an in-setting explanation as to why they now possess such abilities. If the PHB III, let's say, says that Elves all have green skin, this change would not be implemented in the Forgotten Realms until a Forgotten Realms source utilizes the change in the race, saying that Elves all have green skin. This is the reason why Halaster was not dead in the Forgotten Realms until AGHotR mentioned that he was. The Undermountain adventure that came out recently was not a Forgotten Realms sourcebook; it was a "core" sourcebook. As such, whatever took place within that book, until substantiated in a Forgotten Realms sourcebook (which it was), was canon in the "core world" of 3e, but not in the Forgotten Realms.
-I'm going on vacation, so you'll have to excuse me, it'll be a few days before I'm back and can participate again.
The lythari of the novel "Frostfell" never showed any teleportation powers, so the need to add the lythari feystep is not that pronounced as LK wants it to be.
I'd even remove the regeneration from the lowlevel builds as I dont see it as the defining characteristic of Lythari either. The racial ability to take a wolf form is what matters. Some tribes of Lythari might have prefered classes or paragon paths that give the abilities of the ones created by Elaine.
-That specific Silver Dragon, anyway. You seem to have the notion that what happens in novels is irrelevant. In other settings, such as Eberron, this might be the case, but in the Forgotten Realms, now and since the setting debuted, novels have been canon, and one of the principle sources of Realmslore.
Not irrelevant, but also not the most important source that overrides everything else. I'm generally against retcons. I'm against drow and elves losing infravision and drow losing levitate because that was important in both games and novels. I'm also against giving Lythari an abnormal powerful ability just because it was mentioned in one novel and makes absolutely no sense.
-The Forgotten Realms is a setting in which RPG products and novel events tell the tale of the world. Novels are just as canon as RPG booklets. Given the fact that the Forgotten Realms began as a world that was created for Ed Greenwood to set short stories as a little kid, and the fact that novels reach a broader and wider audience, I would say that the opposite is true, that the Forgotten Realms is a world in which literature takes prominence over RPG materials. Of course, both are given equal weight, novels and RPG materials.
I'm a traditionalist. Elves of Evermeet came out 1994, Silver Shadows 2001. Up to 2001 Lythari couldn't teleport at will to their dens (that would have made encounters for evil groups pretty boring) and they weren't able to travel to any place in Faerun in an instant. Why didn't the elves of Evermeet use them as post? They could keep contact to elves all over Faerun, and please don't tell me that the people on Evermeet think that Lythari are legendary.
-It's not illogical. I'd suggest taking a look at information concerning both Lythari and portals/gates in the Forgotten Realms before making such statements. Lythari are believed by most to be myths, as substantiated by the reactions of the Elves of the Wealdath in Silver Shadows. And, as we already know as per the FRCS, and previous sources, Abeir-Toril is inundated with portals/gates leading to various place, most of which are undiscovered, unknown, and unprotected. The tip of the iceberg are the portals/gates that are known to exist, and are "owned" by a group, watching over it to ensure that they possess use of it. It is completely canon that portals exist all across the planet, that Lythari exist, that Lythari utilize portals, and yet, the situation you created has not occurred.
According to how you describe the portals Lythari use, the whole planet Toril has a higher portal density than Sigil the City of Doors. And not only that 90% of those portals have to lead to the Lythari dens. I can't remember reading something like that anywhere.
-Not including the Lythari ability to utilize portals to teleport to/from their dens will indeed make any stats made up for the race diminished, as they will not be portraying Lythari properly, correct. Such stats won't be not accurate-to-the-setting enough not to me, but in general: they won't be accurate-to-the-setting, period, in ignoring fundamental abilities the race possesses, as substantiated in Forgotten Realms canon. Ultimatley, you can do what you like, but I, personally, don't see the purpose of updating the stats of the race if you're not going to do it accurate to what they can do. I'd be like making stats for Duergar, but ignoring Psionics. I don't think that using the rules to do things like update with regards to balance include wholesale ignoring things, but rather, reworking the rules to be accurate.
I'm not going to give them something that was mentioned in one book so far. The Lythari can use portals, fine. Maybe better than other races if their homeplane is concerned, fine. They find such portals within 8 squares in any place on Toril so that it looks like they can planeshift at will? No. That's just crazy.
-The 'Eladrin' of the PHB aren't Forgotten Realms canon to begin with, since the PHB is not Forgotten Realms specific. The PHB is "generic world canon", and is not Forgotten Realms canon. So long as the Forgotten Realms toe the line of the 4e PHB, as they did in 3e, and 2e, materials found within will be easily implemented, but never were such materials canon. The Forgotten Realms changed to fit those materials; they didn't automatically become canon within the context of the setting. Using the example of 'Eladrin', in the Forgotten Realms, Sun Elves, Moon Elves and Star Elves didn't get the ability to use the teleportational abilities utilized by 'Eladrin' in 4e until the setting changed (Spellplague) to accommodate the new changes in the rules, giving an in-setting explanation as to why they now possess such abilities.
Yes, but the spellplague did that. If now an author would find it cool to have a sun elf rogue teleport multiple times (maybe to mimic the fighting style of Wraith from X-Men Origins: Wolverine) that would be canon according to you but in no way reflected in the game stats.
-I'm going on vacation, so you'll have to excuse me, it'll be a few days before I'm back and can participate again.
Okay, have fun!
Just add feystep and be done with it. It is actually a good representation of "sniffing out" doorways in the feywild to travel from A to B during combat. Outside of combat you can add specific lythari ritual of "recall" which'll send them from anywhere on the natural world of Toril to their home den somewhere in th feywild at the cost of a healing surge or somesuch.
The lythari of the novel "Frostfell" never showed any teleportation powers, so the need to add the lythari feystep is not that pronounced as LK wants it to be.
That sounds like a great idea. The Feystep could be added as a feat and be used instead of another racial power in an encounter just like the soul-feats for the revenants. And making the traveling to their den a ritual that costs a healing surge would be good too.
I'd even remove the regeneration from the lowlevel builds as I dont see it as the defining characteristic of Lythari either. The racial ability to take a wolf form is what matters. Some tribes of Lythari might have prefered classes or paragon paths that give the abilities of the ones created by Elaine.
The regeneration is a defining characteristic of all lycanthropes and Lythari still belong to the family. It's nothing compared to their immunity in AD&D against everything that wasn't magical or silvered. And the idea to make that sick teleporting a paragon path is good too. Even though I would still nerf it a bit like that the next portal is W% metres away.
I never seen lythari as true lycanthropes, as they dont have the possibility of taking a hybrid form. They dont seem as a natural race to me either. Their shapeshifting powers look more like some sort of fey pact they made.
I can see it being some sort of pact with a primal spirit of wolves aswell. Perhaps the Lythari are just one common and ancient way of elven PHB2 Wardens that channel a close connection with the wolfspirit.
Both those mental pictures don't evoke super thoughness to me so I think the regeneration isn't essential in depicting a good lythari encounter or character.
Is there an equivalent in the 4E rules of regeneration in the hands of a lowlevel player? Because my guess is its very unbalancing if it is at rate of 5 HP per round.
Yes it is unbalancing, that's why I'm trying to balance it out.
I never seen lythari as true lycanthropes, as they dont have the possibility of taking a hybrid form. They dont seem as a natural race to me either. Their shapeshifting powers look more like some sort of fey pact they made.
I can see it being some sort of pact with a primal spirit of wolves aswell. Perhaps the Lythari are just one common and ancient way of elven PHB2 Wardens that channel a close connection with the wolfspirit.
Elves of Evermeet:
"Lythari are interfertile and reproduce among themselves. They may also create new lythari from among normal elves in a manner similar to other lycanthropes. Lythari status may only be conferred upon another elf if both the lythari and the elf agree to the transformation."
Monsters of Faerun:
"These elf-werewolves share all the abilities of common werewolves, except that they don't have a hybrid form."
Both times they are described as lycanthropes, and they are born or made through a ritual that seemingly contains biting. While a pact could be possible (making them something like fey pact Tieflings) they would still have all the abilities of werewolves (including regeneration, damage resistance or whatever the edition has, excluding hybrid form), and they definitely aren't all members of the warden class.
In AD&D they were immune against all normal weapons. :D So much for toughness.
I think that the Lythari would do well statted out the way that the Dhampyr was. Since they are psuedo lycans and the gift can be passed along you could take the feats at any level really. Just set it up that way, create feats that allow you to swap out powers for racial powers. To me that would be perfect for what you are trying to create, not a full on race, since Lythari are essentially elves just special. It could work.
I did not intend to imply that lythari could travel from anywhere to anywhere, without limitation. I agree that this would make them overpowered.
Territory is important to the wolf-natured, and magic plays an important role in the life of an elf. It seemed reasonable to me that these dual-natured beings would make magical travel a focal point of their culture; accordingly, they have spent thousands of years establishing a network of magical gates.
That said, I don't think you need to worry overmuch about the depiction of lythari in my Songs & Swords book. The changes Spellplague brought to the magical gates will no doubt bring profound changes to the lythari's ability to find and use portals.
Have the lythari been addressed in 4E rules yet? If so, I would be grateful for a reference.
Have the lythari been addressed in 4E rules yet? If so, I would be grateful for a reference.
I dont think so Elaine. I havent seen anything on them...yet.