Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 planetouched Jan 04, 2009 13:27:28	Ok, I got a tough one.I'm running Scepter Tower of Spellgard (first 4th ed game) and I asked the PC's what they wanted to ask lady Saharel should she grant them an audience. I knew the evil Wizard would be a problem, but I never imagined she would want Saharel's power. The PC will eventually realize what the goal of the adventure is, and it might accour to her that she could complete the ritual and bind the ghost to her will, or strike a deal with the villain to get a piece of the cake. How do I motivate her to help lady Saharel get out of a situation that the PC would put her in if she had the opportunity? Suggestions for her answer would be nice too.
#2 onceuponatime Jan 04, 2009 13:38:48	This is a fairly low level adventure...the cost of said ritual could be astronomical is regards to their wealth.... Also make the answer to the players question to be very obtuse..or as teh adventure suggests, no answers for antagonistic questions as she will just fade away... Failing all that...Kill the PC...
#3 planetouched Jan 04, 2009 13:43:50	This is a fairly low level adventure...the cost of said ritual could be astronomical is regards to their wealth.... Also make the answer to the players question to be very obtuse..or as teh adventure suggests, no answers for antagonistic questions as she will just fade away... Failing all that...Kill the PC... I don't want to punish the player just for being evil and playing their character. I realize now the ritual would cost too much, but what if she cuts a deal with the villain? She's in a perfect position to hit the whole party with spells or slip a poison. I just need motivation for her to help Saharel
#4 onceuponatime Jan 04, 2009 13:49:11	I was not really serious about killing her....much....the game is about being heroes...Evil is rarely Heroic....fun? Hell yeah just not heroic... Think about why would the main villain want to have her tagging along...He put all the work into this why would he want to share it...
#5 planetouched Jan 04, 2009 19:27:25	bump?
#6 serphet Jan 04, 2009 19:36:27	how far are you along? I changed a bit in SToS to make it a starting point for my campaign, and need to know how I can represent that information so that it help you. the gist is that the ritual doesn't bind her, it tears the prophetic power from her. This shard of blue crystal (hardened spellfire/plague) gives the wielder prophetic vision. I'm going to have this item be the center point of my campaign, and netheril will send someone (I'm using an entire army) to fetch it once they find what Thoran uncovered deep in the libraries. based on how thigns go, Thoarn will use the crystal to learn how to control the nearby orcs and start building a nation/army/clan. Thoran will never get anywhere with any of that though, b/c Netheril would assassinate him first and take the stone. That's the course of things without play intervention.
#7 planetouched Jan 04, 2009 19:38:12	how far are you along? I changed a bit in SToS to make it a starting point for my campaign, and need to know how I can represent that information so that it help you. the gist is that the ritual doesn't bind her, it tears the prophetic power from her. This shard of blue crystal (hardened spellfire/plague) gives the wielder prophetic vision. I'm going to have this item be the center point of my campaign, and netheril will send someone (I'm using an entire army) to fetch it once they find what Thoran uncovered deep in the libraries. based on how thigns go, Thoarn will use the crystal to learn how to control the nearby orcs and start building a nation/army/clan. Thoran will never get anywhere with any of that though, b/c Netheril would assassinate him first and take the stone. That's the course of things without play intervention. We haven't even started yet.
#8 serphet Jan 04, 2009 19:54:55	k then. SToS is a moderatly complicated and challenging module (for the DM, the players don't see alot of the going ons) Know your NPCs, A big part of teh module is knowing the NPCs, and making the atmosphere of Spellguard come to life. Saharhel is a good person (shes been around a while, lots of history on her), she wouldn't help an evil person, so if you're going with teh module as is, try to go the heroic route, and let Saharhel lead the character down a path of light. that's one thing to do, it all depends on what the party wants to do, personally my history with evil pc's mixed with neutral/good ones, is that the evil one is turned in to authorities, or killed. That's as far as I am going to talk about evil not being good for a group, you know what you're doing so you are doing it. Saharel wouldn't help her. (unless bound) So, if the PC made a deal to hand over some pillars, I could see a deal go on. for an answer... Saharel can liely locate another ritual that transfers her power to another vector (the ritual can be deep in Shade's ritual vaults).
#9 onceuponatime Jan 04, 2009 20:26:12	I just bought the module and cannot wait to lead my players from the passages in the mountains in H2 Pyramid of Shadows to a Drow city as merchant guards to the Second Tower in Spellguard ....they will becoming from PoL to FR and will be trying to find a way back home... I do not see the prophetess helping the evil PC...they may try to trick her but she is ancient and powerful and not that easy to trick... I do not see a deal with the BBEG....he may agree bu tin the end BBEG's are evil and selfish and would turn on the party ASAP.... Now you have just started and there is a possibility that this PC may try to do this and it is good to be prepared but they might not go in that direction...Here's to hoping...
#10 planetouched Jan 04, 2009 20:26:34	k then. SToS is a moderatly complicated and challenging module (for the DM, the players don't see alot of the going ons) Know your NPCs, A big part of teh module is knowing the NPCs, and making the atmosphere of Spellguard come to life. Saharhel is a good person (shes been around a while, lots of history on her), she wouldn't help an evil person, so if you're going with teh module as is, try to go the heroic route, and let Saharhel lead the character down a path of light. that's one thing to do, it all depends on what the party wants to do, personally my history with evil pc's mixed with neutral/good ones, is that the evil one is turned in to authorities, or killed. That's as far as I am going to talk about evil not being good for a group, you know what you're doing so you are doing it. Saharel wouldn't help her. (unless bound) So, if the PC made a deal to hand over some pillars, I could see a deal go on. for an answer... Saharel can liely locate another ritual that transfers her power to another vector (the ritual can be deep in Shade's ritual vaults). The PC's motivation if purely self serving. She's not murderous, but shes not above heinous acts to get what she wants. All she wants in the power. Lady Saharel could know that the path to attain prophetic visions will bring heroic deeds, i just need to get her past the point that allows her that power easily.
#11 mccowen Jan 04, 2009 20:42:15	I don't want to punish the player just for being evil and playing their character. I realize now the ritual would cost too much, but what if she cuts a deal with the villain? She's in a perfect position to hit the whole party with spells or slip a poison. I just need motivation for her to help Saharel Easy. The PC is contacted by agents of Netheril, who are not comfortable with the idea of a loose cannon like Thoran having control over such a power. They cannot exert open influence this close to the Gray Vale and Luruar, however, so they need an ostensibly neutral party to thwart the rogue shadar-kai. If the wizard PC helps the Netherese out--by thwarting Thoran, and handing over copies of whatever magical research he accomplished--they promise rewards beyond his imagining. Magical wealth, ancient knowledge, and political power can be his. Alternately, if he refuses or fails, the wrath of risen Netheril is at least as potent as its gratitude. I like Serphet's answer, too (and may well be stealing it for my game, if I can figure out a way to work it in). The two approaches aren't mutually exclusive either: Lady Saharel answers his question on how to separate her from her gift, but also warns of the dire consequences that will befall Thoran and his allies once the powers of Faerun find out what he's achieved. If the PC somehow talks the rest of the group into completing the ritual, they end up on the run, with a potentially unstable artifact in tow. That sounds like a heck of a campaign starter to me. :D On the down side, you may have a PC who is not merely evil but also stupid. If the player insists on being petty and banal instead of realizing that his best interests lie in thwarting the module's villain, then your job as DM is to give him enough rope to hang himself. My personal solution would be to wait until the moment he betrays the party, then announce that the PC is now an evil NPC adjunct to Thoran. The party meets a new friend in the cells they get thrown into, and their first step is to escape and thwart Thoran and their erstwhile ally before it's too late.
#12 Psikerlord Jan 05, 2009 5:50:25	Hmmm. In my experience evil PCs are just problems, and ultimately end up causing a major intra-party fight, or the campaign ends prematurely because players are annoyed with each other. I distinctly remember one campaign where we all played evil drow and it ended... poorly... effectively in a PC vs PC death match. I would simply suggest "no evil PCs" (since you haven't started yet).
#13 gargs454 Jan 05, 2009 11:32:18	If the PC wants the power, that is perhaps a little bit easier to work with. Saharel can hint that she obtained her power after a long a perilous journey deep into (insert scary plane/region/etc. of your choice). This allows the PC an opportunity to seek out this power without overtly attacking Saharel (which she would not welcome of course). As for whether or not the PC will help out Thoran, well, the problem with evil PCs is that they will often go the "evil" route for the sake of the "evil" route as opposed to the actual desires of the PC. There are a couple of possibilities you can try though. First, if the PC attempts to contact Thoran, have him (Thoran) make it clear that he is not interested in a partnership. He might be willing to part with a few gold for one of the pillars, but even then, he's not too concerned because his minions will find them soon enough. (i.e., he'll pay her, but he's not worried enough to pay her large amounts of gold, so she might be better off learning the secret from Saharel -- particularly since that would likely be worth far more gold than Thoran could possibly give her). Evil PC's, if played properly, are always looking out for #1. The trick here is to make the PC believe its in her best interest to continue to side with the party. Raistlin Majere, of Dragonlance fame, had a great response when asked why he followed the party's de facto leader. His response: "I do not follow him, our paths just happen to lead in the same direction." That's the key here in dealing with the evil PC. Make her believe she's better off with the party than against.