However, the return of the city does not need to be the beginning of an adventure. It could come at the end. Imagine a group of heroes from Cormyr/Myth Drannor and the Dalelands/ Luruar and Evereska being sent on mission from a seemingly beninely insane patron. Mission which over a period of time leads them to fight shades, and eventually discovers traces of a second enclave which would be oppose to the shades.
Part of the Adventure could involve finding the right portal/ritual to the city. Selunarra could get involved by sending troops and spellcasters, perhaps to teach the techniques of old Netheril. This could lead to a mission to steal the Nether scrolls from Shade (not clear of the location after the last adventure series) or locating an undiscovered copy of the scrolls. Perhaps finding the serpent Terraseer for help. Then either transporting the city returning ritual from the lands of Netheril to a friendlier location or having to cast the spell in the middle of a Netheril battlefield or both.
I can see this as an adventure beginning at Hero level and moving to Paragon or even Epic given the destiny you choose (The Choosen of Selune or some of the more benine deities, Master Harpers from Dragon Sept 2008, Elven high Mage from Dragon 2008, Demigod, Archmage).
As for the people of Opus...
A few things might keep the city itself from returning, the major being the ritual keeping the city in the Gates of the Moon. As I have said, PrSP it would need the Eye of Selune and the location where the Shadow Sea is now. If it remains intact after the SP, it would require a trip to Waterdeep and then into the heart of enemy territory.
This could mean the ritual would have to be reinvented which could take time. Yet the spellplague could have altered the conditions, which also would take time to research.
The Shades as I have last heard had the Nether Scrolls. Now if they continued to work after the SP, it would give the Shades a major magic advantage. Either the Opus people would have to steal them back (Major heist, long time planning), find a new set (Extremely hard, if not impossible) or created an equal artifact for magic (need divine backing, time and power). The latter is more likely then the other two if Opus didn't know the Scrolls are in Shade's possession.
Also Opus would need a modern ally against the world. Shade has gain total control of Sembia... but they also need the Sembians as well since they are the portal to the rest of the world.
Also with the Shade's return, they have created a major information network. Opus would also need some way to get more information on the world.
So I can see many Opus adventurers coming to Toril to keep an eye on things and stop the Shades, as they try to find a way back while not being as hated as the Shades.
Thoughts?
The Shades as I have last heard had the Nether Scrolls.
Where did you get this from?
Where did you get this from?
I think it's from the Anarouch (Sp) adventure, the last in 3 ed. I could be wrong though.
I think it's from the Anarouch (Sp) adventure, the last in 3 ed. I could be wrong though.
I'll check this out.
Anyway, this could be a truly epic adventure, though I personally wouldn't let Selunarra return to Faerun.
A few things might keep the city itself from returning,...
Maybe they simply don't want to return? Faerun is a strange land now, where they would have many enemies. And it would take them a long time to collect all kind of information, as the shades did when they returned. And imo if Opus returns, and Shade discovers their return, I think they would instantly attack the new guys if they don't surrender to the shades, and eventually Opus would share the fate of Zhentil Keep.
-Anyway, I've always greatly disliked the Opus Enclave. It stinks too much of "Shade is an evil enclave worshiping (in 3e) Shar, so we need a good enclave worshiping (in 3e) Selûne to balance the equation".
-Anyway, I've always greatly disliked the Opus Enclave. It stinks too much of "Shade is an evil enclave worshiping (in 3e) Shar, so we need a good enclave worshiping (in 3e) Selûne to balance the equation".
Yeah, in that sense it does feel a bit "forced".
-They do have some copies of the Nether Scrolls, taken from Myth Drannor.
-Anyway, I've always greatly disliked the Opus Enclave. It stinks too much of "Shade is an evil enclave worshiping (in 3e) Shar, so we need a good enclave worshiping (in 3e) Selûne to balance the equation".
Well, in the Waterdeep sourcebook, one of the characters from the enclave worshiped the old Mystra of Netheril. So it is possible that some of the older gods are worshiped by the people of Opus. Most likely worship Selune, yet there is are other gods who might have small shrines there.
Opus is more an open religion city then Shade. I can see small groups of Kelemvor, Jergal, Chauntea, Amanuator Sune, Milil, Oghma, Sharess, Tymora, Llira and even Tempus. The first two are a Netheril god and his replacement. Chauntea is another Netheril deity. The fourth is a reborn Netheril god. Sune has many of the same portfolios in the past as Selune and could be seen as her daughter, like Tymora is seen as Tyche's daughter. Milil and Oghma would appear to the bards and artists who likely inhabit the city like in it's heyday. Sharess and Llira are close by and can be seen as daughters or granddaughters of Selune. Tempus replaced Gargos, yet there is likely few Gargos worshipers due to his alignment. The Red Knight and Valkur might have a presence.
So while it is likely to be mostly good people, there is more likely to be more variety in their culture then Shade.
Another point... it is likely easier to have a secret evil group from Opus then a secret good group from Shade.
Just a comment.
Well, in the Waterdeep sourcebook, one of the characters from the enclave worshiped the old Mystra of Netheril. So it is possible that some of the older gods are worshiped by the people of Opus. Most likely worship Selune, yet there is are other gods who might have small shrines there.
-Maybe, maybe not. Remember, in 2e, the people of the Shade Enclave primarily worshiped Tyche (specifically, the part of her that bestowed bad luck, so that would be Beshaba), but 3e retconned it to be Shar, and Shar only (or, did not explain where Tyche/Beshaba's worship went. In keeping with the "good/evil" mantra, I could see the Opus Enclave being only Seluûnarian in nature, to combat Shade, which is only Sharran in nature.
-Maybe, maybe not. Remember, in 2e, the people of the Shade Enclave primarily worshiped Tyche (specifically, the part of her that bestowed bad luck, so that would be Beshaba), but 3e retconned it to be Shar, and Shar only (or, did not explain where Tyche/Beshaba's worship went. In keeping with the "good/evil" mantra, I could see the Opus Enclave being only Seluûnarian in nature, to combat Shade, which is only Sharran in nature.
Except for the Cannon Worship of Mystra under her Netheril name (I forget how to spell it), so at least one other faith is worshiped there. Or was, so why not any others?
Source "City of Splendors:Waterdeep" the paladin example character for the Order of the Blue Moon (I think that's it, he's an aasimar from Selunarra. Not for the fact he can be banished back to the Gates of the Moon).
Except for the Cannon Worship of Mystra under her Netheril name (I forget how to spell it), so at least one other faith is worshiped there. Or was, so why not any others?
-Mystryl.
-Again, I understand what you are saying. The fact that the Shade Enclave was wholly changed to a Shadow Weave-using Shadow Enclave filled with Shadovar Shades makes me believe that the Opus Enclave, if ever given more than a paragraph or two in passing, to highlight that it exists, will be similarly remade to be all-things Selûnian.
-Maybe, maybe not. Remember, in 2e, the people of the Shade Enclave primarily worshiped Tyche (specifically, the part of her that bestowed bad luck, so that would be Beshaba), but 3e retconned it to be Shar, and Shar only (or, did not explain where Tyche/Beshaba's worship went. In keeping with the "good/evil" mantra, I could see the Opus Enclave being only Seluûnarian in nature, to combat Shade, which is only Sharran in nature.
Is that really a retcon? Wouldn't a retcon be "oh, they never worshipped evil Tyche, only Shar?" One could offer a non-retcon explanation quite easily, i.e., 2000 years floating around the [demi](plane of) shadow[fell] makes you start appreciating shar's power very quickly...
Is that really a retcon? Wouldn't a retcon be "oh, they never worshipped evil Tyche, only Shar?" One could offer a non-retcon explanation quite easily, i.e., 2000 years floating around the [demi](plane of) shadow[fell] makes you start appreciating shar's power very quickly...
-It's a retcon, in that where all of the evidence of Tyche worship is gone, and only Shar exists. We have been told the more-or-less origins Shar's worship on the enclave. We haven't been told where Tyche's worship is/went. Until there is an explanation, I consider it a retcon. Explanations eliminate retcons. Retcons are born when there are no explanations. That's how I use the terms.
-It's a retcon, in that where all of the evidence of Tyche worship is gone, and only Shar exists. We have been told the more-or-less origins Shar's worship on the enclave. We haven't been told where Tyche's worship is/went. Until there is an explanation, I consider it a retcon. Explanations eliminate retcons. Retcons are born when there are no explanations. That's how I use the terms.
Fair enough, and i haven't read the latest Paul Kemp series, so i'm a little behind on my Shade lore. That said, though, I'll take that retcon over any of the 4E ones easily. But then, I may be the only idiot who actually kind of liked the RotA trilogy.
Spoilers from Anauroch: The Empire of Shade
Show
At the end of the adventure the scrolls are scattered across Faerun, the Shadovar end up with one, which Brennus has been studying, and they are looking for the rest.
and they can always use the Infinite Staircase if having some need for travel
Anauroch adventure was absolutely the worst 3e FR book, I'm completely ignoring that crap, ruined numerous interesting hooks and mysteries that were put out there over the years
-I also found that that one seemed to go overboard with the "coolness" factor: Shades, Myth Drannor, The Terraseer, Demons, Devils, Nether Scrolls...Too much.
-I also found that that one seemed to go overboard with the "coolness" factor: Shades, Myth Drannor, The Terraseer, Demons, Devils, Nether Scrolls...Too much.
Agreed.
As an alterntive to Selunarra, for Netheril members who are not Shar worshipping Shadow Freak...
The True Netheril movement! A movement both within and without of Netheril to convert the people to something other then Shar's ways. We know from the Sembia article in FRCG that there are people who only on the surface worship Shar. It is possible that the gods (especially Selune but also others, I can see Bane 'working' together with the more benine gods to get a powerful hold on them) would have been working on this during the hundred years.
This can work with out Selunarra, with a reduced Selunarra (let's say Shar attack and destroyed the city itself, or the full city in the realms.
Just a quick idea...
-I am all for a 'True Netheril' movement. As it is, I do not recognize the Shadovar Empire as a reborn Netheril.
The ideas that where there is a corruptible element in all good groups, there is also a small fraction of goodness in all evil... or at least non-evil. There actually might be more then one group, like a fraction for Beshaba worshipers, worshipers of Gargos/Tempus, a group for the good gods like Amauntor, Tymora and Selune and even a non-divine/arcana first group.
This could be the same case as the team up of the Oni forces, Selunites and Cyricist in Amn against the Scorpion-men before the Spellplague. Not all partners love each other, but to survive they have to team up. Add the Devas of Selunarra if you wish (Even if you keep the city in the Gates or destroy it), and you develop a power resistance. Then there are the Sand Kings as well.
Adventures could consist of recovery of the Nether Scrolls and other Netheril artifacts, rescuing and protecting of anti-Shar forces on Shade, eliminate the shades leadership so enough chaos results for the True Netheril empire to emerge.
Thoughts?
The True Netheril movement! A movement both within and without of Netheril to convert the people to something other then Shar's ways.
What if a secret group of good Halruaan wizards have moved into Shade and are "working from within" to slowly convert people and eventually overthrow the Princes and the Sharrans? Could be fun to play out, very cloak and dagger with magic.
as for Selunnara returning, I doubt they would want it, unless they're martyrs, would you move from Heaven, they probably forgot about Faerun in the first few years, Shade was in the Plane of Shadow, that's different
l
I agree that I wouldn't imagine that the entire city would return. However, I doubt very much that they have forgotten or do not know of the troubles of Faerun. They are sitting right up there near Selune and, I would imagine, still worship her. Selune is not deaf or blind to the troubles of her worshipers or even to the people of Faerun in general. Perhaps, the Selunnarans would even represent the next part of the ebb and flow of power if they returned.
-I also found that that one seemed to go overboard with the "coolness" factor: Shades, Myth Drannor, The Terraseer, Demons, Devils, Nether Scrolls...Too much.
It went a little overboard, but it was also basically the end of 3.5 forgotten realms and I imagine the authors wanted to make a big adventure series with a big ending so I can forgive them for their overexcitement.
I doubt that Opus is a place full of Selunite religious zealots dedicated to holy wars against Shar, it's a place of art and freedom
think it should be one minor group of traditionalists, acting as planewalker agents, fighting behind the scenes, but the majority of the current generations would have a mindset alien to Faerun affairs, similar to local celestial population
I doubt that Opus is a place full of Selunite religious zealots dedicated to holy wars against Shar, it's a place of art and freedom
I just found that out from you earlier (so jealous -_- ) and I agree that it would be a few people not the entire city.
so if I write this before any official article comes out, it will be posted here
It might have been a bit much, true...though the rest of my group seemed to enjoy the story, especially as a capstone to the entire adventure arc.
Well, that's all that matters then.
The ideas that where there is a corruptible element in all good groups, there is also a small fraction of goodness in all evil... or at least non-evil. There actually might be more then one group, like a fraction for Beshaba worshipers, worshipers of Gargos/Tempus, a group for the good gods like Amauntor, Tymora and Selune and even a non-divine/arcana first group.
This could be the same case as the team up of the Oni forces, Selunites and Cyricist in Amn against the Scorpion-men before the Spellplague. Not all partners love each other, but to survive they have to team up. Add the Devas of Selunarra if you wish (Even if you keep the city in the Gates or destroy it), and you develop a power resistance. Then there are the Sand Kings as well.
Adventures could consist of recovery of the Nether Scrolls and other Netheril artifacts, rescuing and protecting of anti-Shar forces on Shade, eliminate the shades leadership so enough chaos results for the True Netheril empire to emerge.
Thoughts?
I think there should be factions/people/whatever focused more on Netherese magical traditions over deities (not everyone should be highly religous).
I doubt that Opus is a place full of Selunite religious zealots dedicated to holy wars against Shar, it's a place of art and freedom
Yes, seconded.
I intended to write about the whole Selune's realm when I get some free time and include my friend's description of Opus (have to translate it to English first and it had some weird concepts, e.g. black and white holes)...
-Where are you from? It's always bugged and thrown me for a loop...
Another thought for the return of some of the Devas to Toril... Overpopulation. For eighty years at least, they have lived close to Sune who holds the same sphere as Selune once held. It is possible without the threats of the Spellplague on Toril, they could have had a population explosion. Which given the resources of a magical city in another plane, would need expansion. So why not have a limited return to Toril?
Just some quick ideas.
-Where are you from? It's always bugged and thrown me for a loop...
Croatia
Croatia
-A ha! Well, now I know! Thank you. I'll be able to sleep better at night now. ;) :P
-Keeping it in the Gates of the Moon is nothing I have a problem with. I mean, that's where it is right now, so nothing would really be changing, except for giving it some coverage. As a "retreat", I don't know if I like that. As a regular old city, but in the Gates of the Moon, that's fine with me.
Just a quick idea...
What if instead of causing a return to Netheril, Selunarra instead tries a longer term goal. What if they sent teachers of those who are experts in the arts among those who would fight the Shades? What if they aided the Anti-shade forces in gaining the equipment they would need to fight the Shades like a copy of the Nether Scrolls, ancient spellbooks, magic items, or other things?
Basically with the exception of a few Devas, who would become PC characters, the Selunarra people would give the tools and advice for the collective people of the realms to fight and counter the shades. Perhaps even helping to adapt the magics of Netheril into some different and/or powerful magics. I can imagine what Nether scroll theory could do to say elven/eladrin or dwarven magics if it taught the gnomes their ability to become invisible. Or even Genasi, Tieflings or Dragonborn.
Thoughts?
I'm just sayin'.
Vancian magic only goes up to level 9, but the Netherease system had spells going way past that, Mystryl's Weave used something related to the Vancian system, but not exactly the same as it (as Mytra's Weave did).
For all we know, the current (4e) system could be closer to the Netherease version then the 1e/2e/3e version.
Of course, that would against against the canon Arcane Age lore, but retcons seem to be the way of things lately, so I can see it.
Perhaps, to rectify both versions, we could say that the Mythallars were like 'little Weaves', and Mystra used them as a model for her Weave post-339 DR. Then the naturally-existing magic of Toril before that time would have been more like it is post-Spellplague, and the Nethrease actually created the Vancian System for use within their Mythallar-clad cities.
Now I want to create an apprentice of Ioulaum named Jaakvance. :D
As old as it is, The Dying Earth is still just as good as it was the day it was published. If anything, you will get a far better idea of how Vancian magic works, and how Gary Gygax first saw it when he created D&D.
A must-read for any D&D fan.
Actually, the Netherscrolls are pre-Vancian.
Vancian magic only goes up to level 9, but the Netherease system had spells going way past that, Mystryl's Weave used something related to the Vancian system, but not exactly the same as it (as Mytra's Weave did).
For all we know, the current (4e) system could be closer to the Netherease version then the 1e/2e/3e version.
Of course, that would against against the canon Arcane Age lore, but retcons seem to be the way of things lately, so I can see it.
Perhaps, to rectify both versions, we could say that the Mythallars were like 'little Weaves', and Mystra used them as a model for her Weave post-339 DR. Then the naturally-existing magic of Toril before that time would have been more like it is post-Spellplague, and the Nethrease actually created the Vancian System for use within their Mythallar-clad cities.
Now I want to create an apprentice of Ioulaum named Jaakvance. :D
Plus I have read somewhere that the Shades had a single Nether Scroll, could this be how they bounced back from the Spellplague?
It seems the scrolls exist outside the universe as they adapt to the magic system they are in, as long as they remain in the same heads as in "Lost Empires of Faerun".
-They do have some copies of the Nether Scrolls, taken from Myth Drannor.
-Anyway, I've always greatly disliked the Opus Enclave. It stinks too much of "Shade is an evil enclave worshiping (in 3e) Shar, so we need a good enclave worshiping (in 3e) Selûne to balance the equation".
And isn't there an underlying truth in this statement? See, it's obvious that not all people of retured Netheril are of similar character as the Princes, but the Shades, the Princes or - built down to its quintessence - Shar holds modern Netheril in her grasp. Therefore any other netherese settlement out of her control would automatically come across as the representation of "free Netheril", no matter if it actually is Selunarra or not, or what kind of people dwell there. Perhaps it would indeed be the best to embrace the notion of the evened out equation and provide the community with a "free Netheril". That would give the players a little more room to explore for building up an image of old and new Netheril. The Shade Netheril terribly lacks the diversity old Netheril had and I suppose modern Netheril should have to be an interesting civilization.
So to me unti l either I am proven wrong by being told or I go and take a look again, the weave was created by Mystryl as a side affect when Karsus cast his legendary spell of godly proportions.
Im glad its gone, it always made me think the dnd wizards were weaker than other fantasy wizards and such.
anyway, whether Opus comes back to Faerun or it stays is fine with me.
And isn't there an underlying truth in this statement?
-There is an underlying truth in all of my statements. ;)
This topic popped up on another thread and caused some quick thoughts.
One is that the Aasimar population of the city would have to be replaced as Devas are not capable of reproduction. So something which had to be changed (either a new race, make them a known race or mix of them like human and shifters, or some kind of template).
Also curious if people have used the return in an adventure?
erdana, Arial, Helvetica">erdana, Arial, Helvetica; color:#000000; font-size:x-small">
This topic popped up on another thread and caused some quick thoughts.
One is that the Aasimar population of the city would have to be replaced as Devas are not capable of reproduction. So something which had to be changed (either a new race, make them a known race or mix of them like human and shifters, or some kind of template).
Also curious if people have used the return in an adventure?
Funny how I took that as meaning they could not reproduce with themeslves.
as there is a deva bloodline heritage feat in DDI and the cb
What would be the political/cutural/other effects on Faerun (in places like Cormyr, Shade and Sembia) if Selunarra/Opus were to return to the world of Toril? Either on purpose or some kind of side effect of the Spellplague (Displaced in time, space and dimension perhaps).
I know people don't like the idea of it popping up, but I am curious on world effects...
and the bedine would see them as allies assuming selunarra can earn their trust.
two enlcave netheril does not make.
nor does the one in Cormyr's coast added make netheril either.
( the spires mentioned in the frcg)
So since Shar has her flying city of netherese archwizards Selune also has her own? I miss the days when they still said there wouldn't be anti-paladins, because this sort of mirror-balancing is too bland
I know that's not new lore, but it still sound very unimaginative