1: Q:Why would the Shades want anything to do with The underdark?
A: They don't, it's just something new other than a new novel with new hero soloing the dark armies of the world!
Q: Do you really think the Shades can defeat the Drow in their own homeland?
A: Shades can do anything Drow can and more: Life span is eternal, self body healing, shadowstepping
Q: Even with Lolth there?
A: Shar has always been an over-diety, Lolth just recently somehow became one because RAS overpowers Drow to the 10th power.
Do "bad guys" never fight other "bad guys"?
-Bad guys fight bad guys all the time. Lords of Darkness, using that as just one example, states how the Fey'ri and the Eldreth Veluuthra have come to blows in recent years.
Why can't the Shade Enclave roll into the underdark having a clear advantage over Drow since all drow can do in the dark is infered vision while the shade use the darkness like a tool.
-Teleportation into and through the Underdark does not function, because of the of the magic of the Faerzress'. That said, how would you logistically get a large structure like the Shade Enclave literally into the Underdark?
-Drow do not have Infravision, as Infravision does not exist in 3e. Rather, they now have Darkvision, just like the Shadovar.
1: Q:Why would the Shades want anything to do with The underdark?
-Indeed, and it is a question that would need answering.
Q: Do you really think the Shades can defeat the Drow in their own homeland?
-Define Drow homeland, as the Underdark is a conflageration of independent city-states, rather than a unified nation.
A: Shar has always been an over-diety, Lolth just recently somehow became one because RAS overpowers Drow to the 10th power.
-Shar is not an over-deity, nor is Lolth. Both are Greater Powers, as opposed to Intermediate or Lesser Powers.
They look down apon the ground and those that dwell there (fall back from old times) why would they, of all people, want to look up?
Evil fights evil all the time... thats what sucks about being evil... you are fighting on two fronts all the time.
And RAS didn't overpower the Drow... he just made them popular. They have always been a very strong race.
Its hard to beat anyone when on THEIR home turf. The Drow would find it hard to conquer shade and shade would find it hard to conquer the Drow... The Drow have numbers, but shade has the ultimate affinity to darkness itsself. But actual Shade(race) numbers are only in the couple of thousands (if that) while the drow number in the 100's of thousands if not over a mil (my own speculation)
Rivalen is by no means an average shade. Nor are more than a handful of shade of his power around either. There are a good number of drow about of his power though (no, neither Drizzt, Zak, nor Jarlaxle belong to that category).
Most high would not beat Matron Baenre, since she's dead already. And it is not certain that he would were she still alive. For a) it depends on the author, b ) it depends on what WoC want and c) any wizard would be quite wary going head to head with one of the most valued priests or priestesses of any deity.
Instead, I see the shades both working with and against drow, more in a political game to influence their control in specific areas of the underdark. Drow and shades would make powerful allies - unfortunately drow are not really very trustworthy to work with, if only because alliance with one house nearly automatically means enmity with another.
Shar and Lolth likely don't go along well either, but they might be able to ignore each other as long as they don't tread on each others turf. Drow and shades might work together (they have in the past) for specific goals, then disband and next time go for each others throats.
The Drow would find it hard to conquer shade and shade would find it hard to conquer the Drow... The Drow have numbers, but shade has the ultimate affinity to darkness itsself. But actual Shade(race) numbers are only in the couple of thousands (if that) while the drow number in the 100's of thousands if not over a mil (my own speculation)
Say that after ShadowStorm and they become a powerhouse. Lolth is sure getting powerful when so many drow kill each other off every minute or so, while the world envolpes in darkness and the Shade enclave is busy kicking ass and taking names conquering a few areas at a time. Drow are chaotic and only seek to destroy each other for thousands and thousands of years acomplishing nothing other than in the underdark. While you have the Shades who are all about buisness and unlike retarted drow who sacrfice people they don't like (zak), the shades put them to use such as the Mind Mage and make the worthless actually worth something.
(no, neither Drizzt, Zak, nor Jarlaxle belong to that category).
They are better or worse you are saying?
Most high would not beat Matron Baenre, since she's dead already. And it is not certain that he would were she still alive. For a) it depends on the author, b ) it depends on what WoC want and c) any wizard would be quite wary going head to head with one of the most valued priests or priestesses of any deity.
Yeah right, all Baenre does is talk and be old. You got mad jokes. Rivalen is a high preist of Shar and it is said that he could not overmatch his father if it came down to that.
They are better or worse you are saying?
They are no match for a spellcaster of equal power and there are many of such spellcasters about. You'd know that, if you'd read the rules and novels about decent spellcasters.
Yeah right, all Baenre does is talk and be old. You got mad jokes.
And you'd better watch your tongue. I told you why Baenre just spoke, she was not meant to do something else. Any apprentice gamer, designer or author will tell you that without much of a thought (i.e. spellcasting), she could have erased half of Menzo if it had struck her fancy. And so could any other caster of her power, mage or priest alike.
Rivalen is a high preist of Shar and it is said that he could not overmatch his father if it came down to that.
So what? Does that tell you anything about Lord Shade's actual power? It does tell you a bit about his power, i.e. he's good enough to beat a dragon (as are many others, try the Archwizards Trilogy and look out for the Chosen of Mystra), his father is good enough to beat him. It does not tell you anything about how either of them would fare against say Gromph Baenre or - since we spoke about her - Matron Baenre.
But enough goading for today. There is no point arguing. This is much like someone going on about how good or bad Christianity is as opposed to Hinduism or Islam, without having ever touched The Bible himself.
Shades do not have enough shades I think to really attack anything full force
either. They have humans as soldiers but not as many shades.
Ok, 100th time woman, I do not play this DnD game. I do not read the rules, everything I have mentioned is strictly from the novels. Call me ignorant, I don't care, but you have been oblivious to the fact that I've mention this countless times and yet you still try to use it against me. And as for your bible theory, I wouldn't trust the work of a so called God if he let man write it, when man is clearly imperfect. And since you are the one who knows the DnD stuff, why don't you pull out the Stats for me of Rivalen and other such Drow you seem so proud of. Hell, since Kemp post here reguarly, maybe he can throw down some Most High stats.
Hence I pointed at the ill-adviced attempt to use saga or mythology heroes and heroines on some real world issue. It does not match. Likewise, actions of D&D-novel heroes and the the setting and game rules do not always match. Drizzt, for example, walks through rows of orc warriors galore - which is no wonder, as he is level-wise far superior. A couple of slashes, either in novel or game will see off the orc warrior. Yet, he does have his troubles killing giants, since they are far more difficult opponents. This does not always relates well into novels though (not least in RAS' novels) and hence they cannot always be trusted nor can they be used as standards. Try to keep in mind that the novels are based on the game, not vice versa.
I see no reason to pull out any stats, as you most likely have no clue what they mean. If you want to learn, have a look into Lords of Darkness (Rivalen) and the Menzoberranzan boxed set (all the major drow are in there). Both are available as PDFs for less than $ 5 at e.g. paizo.com or RPGnow.
As for the Bible ... no theory of mine. See, I didn't want your opinion on that, but trying to show that this is a vein attempt since you keep ignoring what I and others said above.
I see no reason to pull out any stats, as you most likely have no clue what they mean.
Educate me please? I'm sure 10 mins out of your time wouldn't hurt on a PM. I'm not about to go as far as buy a DnD rule book manual for a hypothetical win over a debate.
Hey Rauric, thanks for replying to my post now and not throwing the EB-Bash thing. I apperciate it buddy.
Educate me please? I'm sure 10 mins out of your time wouldn't hurt on a PM. I'm not about to go as far as buy a DnD rule book manual for a hypothetical win over a debate.
The problem is, that it will not take 10 minutes.
Since shades are drow 2.0, I suppose it makes some sense. I suspect the dark goddess - what shall we call her? - I suspect Llar (Sholth?) will encourage them to squabble as she does the drow, but never allow it to progress far enough to weaken her. As for who is more powerful. There are stats for most of these characters lying around, but power only lasts until a writer decides to make someone better. Don't put all your money on one horse. You will always lose.
I'm going to put myself in some danger of being showered in rotten fruit here, but it should be pointed out that Llolth and Shar are getting merged in 4e. :p
What???
Do you have a link???
This is madness! This is blasphemy!
I'm going to put myself in some danger of being showered in rotten fruit here, but it should be pointed out that Llolth and Shar are getting merged in 4e. :p
And where, exactly, has this been confirmed?
Please show us your sources.
I'm going to put myself in some danger of being showered in rotten fruit here, but it should be pointed out that Llolth and Shar are getting merged in 4e. :p
-There are theories that this is going to be happening, but thus far, we have not seen anything concrete. The closest we have, right now, to such a thing, is a minor cult in the Underdark beneath Thay, that has been worshipping Lolth and Shar as a merged entity. That neither deity answers their prayers, and has activley attempted to destroy them shows that neither approves, and thus, makes that this is true in the Forgotten Realms all the more unlikely.
And Amuanator was definitely not Lathander in several sources as well... ;)
-Yeah, well, that was thrown out the window.
As could the Shar/Lolth being seperate deities thing...
See, this is when people start rumours and they grow arms and legs. Methinks many of us were posting in that very thread where the idea was heralded for the first time, with no substance at all to back it up. It was just an idea. Not saying that it can't happen, but Lolth and Shar are very seperate beings with very separate objectives. There is no reason whatsoever to link these two goddesses. Lolth looks for power and the dominance of her chosen race, while Shar wants to destroy all of it in a wave of perfect nihilism.
the maps are not likely to exist
and surviving part isnt going to work.
teleport magic doesnt work, light attracts monsters( cooking fires, not torches), caravan animals, supply lines,3 dimensional ambushes, and if you are not a shade, or even if you are in 4e, the darkvision part is gone, so near vision, and not to mention natural hazards
well short range teleportation might work, but it isnt worth it, 500 ft, easier to take a wagon
Sure, nothing whatsoever to back it up, I'll agree there. But considering its a ludicrous and utterly illogical idea to put forward, it does by merit of being exactly that, have a decent chance of happening in the 4e Realms. ;) :D
Well, when you put it like that...
There is no reason whatsoever to link these two goddesses. Lolth looks for power and the dominance of her chosen race, while Shar wants to destroy all of it in a wave of perfect nihilism.
-As has been discussed, the link between the two would be the semi-defunct Thayan cult of the She-Spider (or something to that effect), which linked the worship of Lolth and Shar.
Q:Why would the Shades want anything to do with The underdark?
Mineral rights, portal traffic, search for lost Netherese lore, etc. There is only so much room for urban sprawl on a floating mountain. Lightless corridors that can sustain life (rothe, fungi, etc) might seem attractive.
Q: Do you really think the Shades can defeat the Drow in their own homeland?
Probably not.
-Homefield advantage is a huge factor in warfare, as a current little desert skirmish might illustrate. Defender has all the geographical advantages (safeways, cover, hidden caches, etc), indigenous support, local intel, language, and more motivation to fight (home vs. $).
-Drow have larger numbers too, especially w/ slave holdings. Excellent magical support as well (SR woudl be immense in mass combat), etc.
-Shadovar forces are not all Shades. Shades are rare and a gift reserved for the badasses, but they are a unified, cohesive force to be reckoned w/. They are better organized though and more militaristic than drow.
-Drow are prone to infighting and predation from other Underdark races. Power is through fear, not respect. It is likely, in a weakened state from a protracted war, duergar and the like would take advantage and attack (War of the Spider Queen?), cut a deal w/ the Shadovar, etc. No love lost over every race and the drow, still, they are so tenacious and cunning, it might prove more work than worry for the Shadovar.
Q: Even with Lolth there?
The divine aspect is always a wildcard. Impossible to answer. I sincerely doubt she would let her source of power be killed off so readilly despite flippantly sacrificing even powerful drows at her whimsy.
Shadovar forces are not all Shades. Shades are rare and a gift reserved for the badasses, but they are a unified, cohesive force to be reckoned w/. They are better organized though and more militaristic than drow
I think this is an important point.
The OP seems to think (forgive me if I am wrong) that all shadovar are shades. The transformation is reserved for the elite of the city. Their number is among hundreds ( maybe a few thousands).
Drows are always drows.
Picture what happened to the Dambrathans. Then rememeber the Netherease had some experience with the Drow in the Sargauth Enclave (Undermountain) - true, it was only after the Netherease fell that the Drow were finally able to overrun the Melairkyn Dwarves, but I get the feeling that the learned early on not to press into Drow-controlled regions.
There was also an underground highway that lead from Netheril to the Northern Dwarf land (city of Ascore - don't remember the country name), and the Shades are busily doing some serious digging in the area. The Netherease and Dwarves TOGETHER kept the great Undeground passage (can't remember the name ATM) clear of Drow and other Underdark types, and after netheril fell the passage was 'lost' to the Dwarves (but also recently re-used by Northern Dwarves during Obould's war with Mithral hall).
Obviously, the Netherease new about and had their own troubles with Drow, and although it appears they usually were able to fend them off, it looks as though it was only through determination and constant vigilance that they were able to do so.
The city of Shade is only one Enclave (yeah.. I know that got another one now..), and if all the Enclaves and Empire combined barely kept the Drow in check in the few Netherease subterranean settlements, then it stands to reason that Shade just doesn't have the resources to commit to such a monumental undertaking at this time.
Drows are always drows.
The plural of Drow is Drow. ;)
I think this is an important point.
The OP seems to think (forgive me if I am wrong) that all shadovar are shades. The transformation is reserved for the elite of the city. Their number is among hundreds ( maybe a few thousands).
Drows are always drows.
-If I remember my math correctly, that I did in the Shade v. Evermeet thread (and I don't 100%), the city of Shade had about 25,000 residents in total, including slaves. If even 10% of the city is composed of Shades- and that is, in reality, a very exaggerated number- that's only 2,500 Shades in the city.
...(yeah.. I know that got another one now..)...
-At this point in time, the Sakkors Enclave is still quite empty, having only recently been risen from the bottom of the sea. The Source (the sentient mythallar) does still exist on the enclave, but is non-respondant to anyone but Magadon.
The point being the Underdark is and should be a place of great weakness for Shadovar, objects and individuals do not have shadows there without some source of light which a Drow could snuff in a heartbeat.
In my campaign I address this, making Shade more neutral and making shadow magic act at least somewhat like a shadow. For instance an Eclipse is a major event for Shade, when the whole region is inside a single shadow, the floor of a canyon runs with shadow most of the day... and so on.
Night might just barely pass as the shadow of the world (with no moon or stars), but there is no reason for shadows under the Earth.
-If I remember my math correctly, that I did in the Shade v. Evermeet thread (and I don't 100%), the city of Shade had about 25,000 residents in total, including slaves. If even 10% of the city is composed of Shades- and that is, in reality, a very exaggerated number- that's only 2,500 Shades in the city.
I have had Shade purchasing through the Zents, Drow, and various evil dragons enough slaves/refugees/servants to fully populate the city at this point. There is no reason for it to remain under-populated, however there is no reason for it to have more Shadow Mages...so the above is half right.
It'd be like a general taking an army to conquer Mount Everest -- sure he'd get his 15 minutes in fame, only most of his troops would be dead or dying and he'd have nothing to bring back home besides a photo of himself standing at the top trying to look important.
Night might just barely pass as the shadow of the world (with no moon or stars), but there is no reason for shadows under the Earth.
-Shadow = the absence of light. With a cave above you, under you, and to your left and right, there's plenty absence of light.
I have had Shade purchasing through the Zents, Drow, and various evil dragons enough slaves/refugees/servants to fully populate the city at this point. There is no reason for it to remain under-populated, however there is no reason for it to have more Shadow Mages...so the above is half right.
-Of course, they don't have the capability to do all of that.
-If I remember my math correctly, that I did in the Shade v. Evermeet thread (and I don't 100%), the city of Shade had about 25,000 residents in total, including slaves. If even 10% of the city is composed of Shades- and that is, in reality, a very exaggerated number- that's only 2,500 Shades in the city.
Why assume anything like 10%?
Maybe I missed an update, but according to LoD, of the 25,000 inhabitants, only approximately 500 are full blown shades. This is not to say that others don't have similar templates like Dark creature.
When in doubt, I go to a source for the numbers.
-RW
As for shadow being the absence of light, that is not correct, a shadow is the shape of light occluded by some object, without light there cannot be shadow. Darkness is darkness, shadow is shadow. If analogy helps, think of darkness as water, a shadow is like an object cast from jello (a mixture of water and stuff) throw it into pure water and it falls apart. It is the stuff that casts the shadow that puts its stamp onto it... darkness and stuff, the echo of the object makes the shadow.
Light destroys the darkness in the shadow, darkness dissolves it. In either case the identity of the shadow is gone, so is its effectivness.
Spoilers
The Shade may indeed have something of a civil war coming. In Realms of Lore, thanks to Mask and Varra, Brennus found the necklace of his and Rivalens mother in the field of flowers that Rivalen murdered her in, which was the act that sent his father down the path of Shar. How do you expect dear old dad and Brennus to react to that finidng, especially iof they can somehow trace Rivelen to that spot, or even scry his invovlement now?
Just because the evil factions aren't fighting each other openly, doesn't mean they aren't secretively.
Why assume anything like 10%?
Maybe I missed an update, but according to LoD, of the 25,000 inhabitants, only approximately 500 are full blown shades. This is not to say that others don't have similar templates like Dark creature.
When in doubt, I go to a source for the numbers.
-RW
-I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. As it turns out, they don't even deserve that.
Shades do not have the capacity to buy slaves...? Pretty silly, if they can reclaim artifacts from around the world they can certainly lay hands on gold and gems for trade, make gateways, and put people to work planting shrubs.
-The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend, especially when you compete for the same thing.
As for shadow being the absence of light, that is not correct, a shadow is the shape of light occluded by some object, without light there cannot be shadow.
-You just reaffirmed what I just said: Shadow is the absence of light. Shadow and darkness are synonymous.
-You just reaffirmed what I just said: Shadow is the absence of light. Shadow and darkness are synonymous.
I think we need clarify, before this moves into ridiculousness, that he is speaking of a shadow, while your speaking of the essence of shadow.
Two different things.
In game terms it was always hard to deal with powers and abilities that are transparent too or trump each other. Psionics went both ways, then they decided that it was really the same kinds of effects just handled differently, so along came shadow magic, punching through shields and leaving dimension locks behind in the blink of an eye... If I had to guess they have made the various types of magic all congruent in the new system? Or what?
That of course leaves spellfire and silver fire to act as a cheat by being unstoppable...what is going to be left?
Is their a new world build going on to showcase the new rules?
I believe I read somewhere that the Shadow Weave is nor more or less a Shadow Focus for casting spells.
-Right. The Shadow Weave is gone, as the Shadow Weave, but the entire concept behind a source of shadow magic and all of that remains.
Shades do not have the capacity to buy slaves...? Pretty silly, if they can reclaim artifacts from around the world they can certainly lay hands on gold and gems for trade, make gateways, and put people to work planting shrubs.
Shade: "Alright, listen up! You maggots were brought here to make this conquered city thrive again and craft a new gem to our glorious empire!"
Farmer Slave 1: "Huh?"
Farmer Slave 2: "Brought where?"
Farmer Slave 3: "Who said that?"
Shade: "Over here! Are you fools blind?!"
Farmer Slave 1: "Yes."
Shade: "Oh, right. Uh, let me get some torches or something..."
Farmer Slave 2: "That's better."
Shade: "Don't get too comfortable, maggot! You are here to do our bidding without question!"
Farmer Slave 1: "I have a question."
Shade: "What is it?"
Farmer Slave 1: "I need to go to the outhouse... eh... inhouse... whatever it's called down here. Which way is that?"
Shade: "I didn't build this city, dammit, I conquered it! And you're not going anywhere until this place is thriving farmland again!"
Farmer Slave 2: "Hello? Crops need, like, fertile soil, sunlight, and water. What we got here is bare rock, a torch, and... well, we got water at least."
Farmer Slave 3: "Maybe they want us to grow seaweed."
Farmer Slave 2: "Haha! That was a good one, Bob! I mean, Farmer Slave 3."
Shade: "Silence! I kill you!"
Farmer Slave 2: "Sorry."
Shade: "I had you maggots hauled down here because you're supposed to be farmers! So start farming!"
Farmer Slave 3: "Farm what? We told you already, there's nothing here."
Shade: "Enough with this nonsense! If the drow could have farms here, so can we! Because we're tougher than they are!"
Farmer Slave 2: "Yeah, well obviously you're not smarter."
Shade: "We crushed every last one of them! We took their precious city! They fell before us like crops in a storm!"
Farmer Slave 2: "So we noticed..."
Farmer Slave 3: "Speaking of crops, when are we going to eat? I'm hungry."
Farmer Slave 1: "Look, I really, really need to go!"
Shade: "..."
I have never liked the oversight that is persistent in the Sade/Shadow themes, that being that absolute darkness is just as shadowless as brilliant sunlight. Twilight and dawn are when shadows are longest and strongest, there are no shadows except artificial ones at midnight.
The point being the Underdark is and should be a place of great weakness for Shadovar, objects and individuals do not have shadows there without some source of light which a Drow could snuff in a heartbeat.
[...]
Night might just barely pass as the shadow of the world (with no moon or stars), but there is no reason for shadows under the Earth.
Actually, I recall in one of the Shadow magic trillogies, the one with that elf from Evreska (sorry it has been a while), that they addressed this very issue. It was said that even the underdark is shadow. Since on the prime material plane there is a static source of true light (the sun) anything blocked from that (or any other light source) is shadow. You can not argue that having a mile of earth above you does not block out the sun any more than you can argue that the tree above your head does not create shade. It is just that the amount of shade is too massive for you to recognize it as such.
Effectively the Underdark is one of the purest sources of shade on the prime material plane. What better tree could you ask for to shield you from the sun's light?
Why assume anything like 10%?
Maybe I missed an update, but according to LoD, of the 25,000 inhabitants, only approximately 500 are full blown shades. This is not to say that others don't have similar templates like Dark creature.
When in doubt, I go to a source for the numbers.
-RW
What's with you and Drow? Always defending them like it's your mother or something. The most high would wipe the floor with the top drow. And he's not even a presit of a God. Just pure skill on his part unlike Cale or Rivalen or Matron mothers who need the backing of a Diety because they can't rely on themselves.
Actually, I recall in one of the Shadow magic trillogies, the one with that elf from Evreska (sorry it has been a while), that they addressed this very issue. It was said that even the underdark is shadow. Since on the prime material plane there is a static source of true light (the sun) anything blocked from that (or any other light source) is shadow. You can not argue that having a mile of earth above you does not block out the sun any more than you can argue that the tree above your head does not create shade. It is just that the amount of shade is too massive for you to recognize it as such.
Effectively the Underdark is one of the purest sources of shade on the prime material plane. What better tree could you ask for to shield you from the sun's light?
Yeah seriously, the Shade would pumble the underdark. They just see it as a joke and let the Drow waste time in the sewers having war with each other instead of acomplishing something. Because you know, Lloth can take out all hundread+ deties including AO according to them. And Shar/Lanthander/Mystria and any other greater deities aren't as smart as Lloth because they have no Drow followers. So I guess all other dieties are just wasting their time until they see the true potiental of the underdark right?
They don't have to be like the religious nutters who inhabit this particular crystal sphere you know...
Heaven (and Hell) help those who help themselves. ;)
They don't have to be like the religious nutters who inhabit this particular crystal sphere you know...
I don't understand. (BTW updated my last post, re-read it if you care to do so).
As to shadow existing in the Underdark... shadow doesn't exist without light. No light, no shadow... just darkness. Big difference between diminished light and the absence of light...
As to shadow existing in the Underdark... shadow doesn't exist without light. No light, no shadow... just darkness. Big difference between diminished light and the absence of light...
Did you not read the kids post? According to the guidelines he set out, there is pleanty of shadow in the underdark. There is no such thing as pure darkness unless your in some black hole?
As to shadow existing in the Underdark... shadow doesn't exist without light. No light, no shadow... just darkness. Big difference between diminished light and the absence of light...
-A tree blocking the sun and causing a patch of blocked light on the ground would be considered shadow, correct? So, how does the ground blocking the sun and creating a patch of blocked light in the Underdark differ?
Tree blocking the sun simply blocks direct lighting and creates an area that is only semi-illuminated compared to the prevailing light conditions... the area is still illuminated, just indirectly, which is the shadow part. No illumination, no shadows... just darkness. The whole sun as source of all light thing just strikes me as... odd in the extreme. And no, I wouldn't count night on the surface as true darkness, even during a full moon, since stars provide a certain level of illumination.
-The Underdark produces it's own sources of indirect illumination as well, via Faerzress' and luminescent lichens.
What's with you and Drow? Always defending them like it's your mother or something. The most high would wipe the floor with the top drow. And he's not even a presit of a God. Just pure skill on his part unlike Cale or Rivalen or Matron mothers who need the backing of a Diety because they can't rely on themselves.
I wasn't even defending Drow in your quote of mine. I was pointing out that there aren't that many true shades in the city.
That said, you can't say they'd win or lose with any conviction, without knowing the numbers. So your post is speculation based on an uninformed opinion. Comparatively, in an example you'll relate to, it would be saying that the Marines beat the Airforce before knowing there is only one marine, and 10,000 Airforce Personnel.
You need to separate you irrational hate for the Drow from the discussion if you are to hope to rationally decide a victor. If you can not do this, then your profile lies, in the claim that you do what I do but better. ;)
To the ongoing debate of Shadow VS. Darkness, it's become an argument of semantics.
At it's core darkness is nothing more than the deepest of shadows. It is the complete absence of light, where the shadow of a tree is merely the partial disruption of light.
The intensity does not make one more or less than the other. People just happen to apply different terms to the two, and without looking at it scientifically, assume there is a difference. Don't let a flawed system of description/ communication fool you into differentiating between two things that are inherently the same.
-RW
Even from a physics point of view, I see a huge difference between a complete absence of something and a diminishment of something.
Then those areas would indeed have shadow... but its nothing to do with the sun, which was ultimately my point.
-I originally used the Sun, but the native light in the Underdark works to perform the same task, so...Didn't think of it sooner, though.
Even from a physics point of view, I see a huge difference between a complete absence of something and a diminishment of something.
-Concerning light, I don't agree. I'll ask Dan.
Please do, I'd be curious to know how that's defined 'officially'.
-He's away right now, but when/if I get a hold of him, while I'm on right now, I'll let you know.
As light emissions as we know them, prime example being the sun, can not be destroyed, they must therefore be converted to something else. In the case of the sun, that something else is infrared. A spectrum we can not see with the naked eye, thus we have areas we refer to as darkness.
Now, the degree of shadow is directly proportionate to the amount of light readily available -- white light as we call it -- by which the human eye can take in, and show for us colours and shadows.
The sensitivity of our eyes allow us to see minor shadows as areas that appear darker than those flooded fully with light. Unfortunately as the source of light continues to diminish, so to does our ability to see the world around us.
Now, despite the impression of absolute darkness, the truth behind it as I have stated is quite different. All manner of visual aquity is based upon the ability to have light reflected back upon an optical source and interpreted by a "Brain". Whether that brain is is chemical, electrical, or a combination of the two is irrelevant. This is why a cave that appears lightless can be viewed with various pieces of technology. Enhancing our own eyesight to the point of taking in more light, or shifting into a more viable spectrum all together.
Regardless of whether you immediately grasp shadow and darkness as one and the same, you must now admit that by the narrower definition of shadow, darkness as we know it remains what you would call shadow, simply by merit of light remaining.
Thus the debate can end. ;)
-RW
P.S. True darkness would be the absolute absence of light. A concept that can only exist in a perfect void.
-Thank you, RW, for both summing up and elaborating on all of this.