Combatants
Silver League:
-Cormyr
-Evereska
-Myth Drannor
-United Dales Council
-Luruar
-Algarond
-Zhentarium (believe it or not)
Shadow League (bet you can't guess who the first nation is)
-Netheril
-Sembia
-Thay
-Najara
The back-story is pretty much this. Deciding that now is the time to attack, Netheril makes several deals with nearby neighbors.
The Twelve Princes strike a deal first with Najara. In exchange for supporting Najara slave collecting in the nearby lands, Najara would contribute all it could to the fall of Cormyr. Netheril itself would handle Evereska and Luruar. Najara agreed as a unified government.
Now it was Thay's turn. Meeting in Szass Tam's personal quarters, the Twelve Princes learned of Tam's attempt and failure to perform a powerful ritual. They strike another deal---if the Shadovar help Tam with his ritual, then Thay would contribute all it could to the fall of Algarond and later Cormyr. Tam suddenly realizes the Princes had just set themselves into a trap: they have no idea what the purpose of Tam's ritual was, and if they indeed could help him, he would turn on them and rule ALL of the North with an iron fist and eventually, all of Faerun. With these brooding thoughts in mind, he agrees.
War is coming to the Heartlands.
So...who here thinks the Silver League will own the Shadow League or the other way around?
-Anyway, I am voting for the Silver League. The reason is that Netheril and Thay are the two major powerhouses in the Shadow League. Both have end goals in which either nation rules absolutely. Because of such conflicts, there is invariably going to be interfighting that weakens that alliance.
And as for Thay and Netheril as the main powerhouses and turning on each other...welcome to evilism, mah friend.
No, I didn't ASK it per se, but I introduced it as a campaign idea in an earlier post. Now I'm just seeing what other people think.
-Alright, I knew I saw this somewhere before, so...
And as for Thay and Netheril as the main powerhouses and turning on each other...welcome to evilism, mah friend.
-Them's the ropes.
-If you're going to contribute, can you contribute in a meaningful way, please?
How is my giant cricket not meaningful? Elaith battled one in Elf song.
If it's the later fact then they could easily pull it off, but neither Netheril or Thay and possibly Sembia will lose whilst on their home turf. It's one of those wizard things..
I wonder: would Rashemen actually side with the Silver League, or perhaps be an ally of it? Thay would probably try to take it in the ensuing chaos.
-Neither, maybe. Allying themselves with the Silver League might then prompt Thay to invade, bolstered by the strength it was receiving from her ally. Being a neutral party, Thay might ignore Rasheman, while dealing with the Silver League.
How is my giant cricket not meaningful? Elaith battled one in Elf song.
-It was not relevant to the topic.
Alternately, they might try to invade Turmish, and from there the Dragon Coast region, and attempt to open a second front on Cormyr from the south with the intention of hamstringing the navy and keeping them from safely deploying reserves from their coastal cities by pinning them down with the threat of seaborne invasion across the Lake of Dragons. Convoluted perhaps, but if you're going with the World War Faerun idea, might as well go all the way. Just some thoughts off the top of my head.
Rashemen probably wouldn't ignore Thay though. Doesn't Thay have Rashemi slave stock?
-Look at things from the Rashemi point of view: Thay is suddenly empowered. They are dealing with some other nation at this current point in time, though, and ignoring us. Let's not do anything to make them remember us, because, in their newly empowered state, they can actually win this time.
Thay can’t really provide any assistance to any of the other members, other than to continue tying down Aglarond. Aglarond is not really that important to this whole equation due to its issues with projecting power. Both lack Navies. Aglarond has held back Thay for a very long time. The Shadovar will very much realize what Szass Tam’s ritual is about and then they will come to blows. The very idea of the two allying in the first place is ludicrous. Regardless of what happens in this little corner of the world it won’t affect other areas for some time.
Najara is quite defensible, the problem is the terrain that makes it defensible also makes it equally difficult for it to project power. Also should it manage to overcome these negatives it must be victorious quickly, because other kingdoms surround it who would tear it to pieces if it gets bogged down. If it were to attack anything Evereska would be it’s only viable target, and we all know just how tough a nut to crack it is. A number of city states may see this as an opportunity to secure trade routes, and others might even be inspired by their god to crusade against Najara. Remaining obscure and waiting for someone to weaken is their smartest course. They gain little from an alliance with humans they cannot trust, and risk much.
Sembia, does anyone really believe that Sembia rests comfortably under the beneficent rule of their Shadovar masters? Does anyone really believe the Sembians are loyal to Netheril? Sembia is loyal to what it has always been loyal to GOLD. Sembia is the weakest link in this whole scenario, because if it falls the tenuous links of this alliance completely unravel. It’s social make up begs for the powerful to rule, and those rule through money. War is not good for trade, and every day that passes Sembia will be more apt to throwing off the yoke of Netherese rule.
Netheril is surrounded by enemies. Any attempt to project real power will result in a weakening that can be taken advantage of. This is Netheril’s dilemma. It has nowhere to expand so it must go to war sooner or later. In terms of population baring some sort of mass migration it must be much lower than the lands surrounding it. The only strength it has is its mystic might, and two floating citadels. These are serious advantages that are hard to quantify. Of course any real advantage in magic will have to come from Ritual Magic, but even this is counterbalanced by their enemies. Remember it only takes a single 30th level Wizard to float a rock the size of a city into one of the Shadovar cities. In other words don’t expect to see them used where real opposition exists. Lets also not forget that Fzoul Chembryl will be waiting for the right moment for vengeance. So while Netheril might need to seek for means to expand it’s power, outright war would very likely result in utter disaster. This of course is not taking into account the Feywild and how much of a world of hurt could come streaming out of the Border Forest at exactly the wrong time.
So to describe an overall strategy for the Silver Alliance who have the most to gain from this. Luruar and Evereska make noise in the direction of Netheril, standby to launch raids, provide funding to focus of main effort, while providing defensive support to each other against any expedition by Najara. Cormyr uses its Royal Navy and privateers to blockade Sembian ports, rerouting traffic to their own ports and buying cargos at fair prices. This should prevent the rerouted merchants from fomenting any trouble. The Cormyrian Army clamps down on mountain passes, and muster forces on the Sembian border along with the majority of its War Wizards. The Dales and Myth Drannor raid soft targets in Sembia, and shift a large contingent to Daggerdale. Aglarond pins down Thay, and ensures that diplomatic channels with Rashemen are open. Aglarond may also seek to approach other bordering cities and nations. No one likes the undead, much less a nation full of them.
Eventually the shut down in trade, and constant raids will wear at the Sembians. Additionally the lack of supplies will damage Netheril’s ability to project force, and feed it’s populace. This will demand action. At this point they may risk one of their floating cities to provide a forward base. How it goes from here is up to complete speculation. Can the Silver Alliance bring down one of these floating cities? If the answer is yes, Sembia will be cut off from Daggerdale, and dismantled. This of course offers up a new dilemma of what to do with Sembia?
Regardless I see Sembia falling, Najara pulling out, Thay doing business as usual, and a few years later Fzoul eating a nice cold dish of revenge.
-The Netherese and Thayans are accomplished masters of magic. What if they can quickly transport troops to each other via mass teleportation circles? Geography wouldn't mean much if they were teleporting everywhere
-They probably don't need navies anyway when, again, magic could summon up some terrible fleet of aquatic monsters.
-It states that Sembia is firmly under control of Netheril. There isn't that much resistance to the Shadovar, and the Sembians are profiting nicely from the Netherese. (Shadow Caravans anyone?)
-Najara has plenty to gain from increased slave stock from Netheril. They know that the Shadovar profit them greatly with their assistance. Najara doesn't even have to try to conquer Evereska: it could merely harrass it until Netheril has conquered Luruar.
-Netheril's army strength isn't mentioned, but I know for sure many of their mages match or exceed the War Wizards or Myth Drannor.
-Look at the Dutch. They were rich and thus had a very powerful merchant fleet. Who says Sembia isn't the same? Their navy, while probably not as well-trained or disciplined as Cormyr's Royal Navy, will not be easy to destroy. In fact, with Netheril assistance, Sembia might be able to re-rout the Blue Dragons. This is where the PCs come in.
-If Thay has managed to install a fortress in Aglarond and Aglarond hasn't even responded to it, what makes one think the kingdom will be able to overpower Szass Tam's legions? Also realize, although Algarond fended off Thay's latest sieges, it has been considerably weakened. Another attack, especially with help from Netheril, would cripple it. Again, PCs come in.
-I realize the Shadovar will eventually realize Szass Tam's real effects of the ritual, and I want this to be the climax of the campaign: a reluctant alliance of the Silver League and Netheril against Thay, who has by now, thanks to Shadovar assistance, become the most powerful country in Toril. Its undead legions are pulled from every corner of the megacontinent, from Koryo to Calimshan to Zakhara. If it was saved by the PCs earlier, or if Algarond managed to fend off Thay's earlier attack on its own, by now, would be a massive battlefield, with allied armies from the Silver League/Netherese combined, against Thay's recently released flood of undead and other horrors. It's up to the PCs to find Szass Tam and kill him before his ritual is complete.
Ultimately, although I like your realistic way of thinking, Szass Tam or the Shadovar could pull up anything nasty via magic. Perhaps demon/goblinoid/orc mercenaries strengthen Netheril's armies, maybe from the Border Forest or from other realms. Thay's numberless undead legions would be more than a match against puny Algarond, and if Algarond tried to evacuate by sea, who knows what would be conjured out of the water?
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) ;)
Your view of this is realistic. You got to consider a few things:
-The Netherese and Thayans are accomplished masters of magic. What if they can quickly transport troops to each other via mass teleportation circles? Geography wouldn't mean much if they were teleporting everywhere
Well what's good for them is also good for the opposing side. Not to mention getting troops to a location is less than half the battle. Then you have to supply them. The bill in g.p. value to do any of this would bankrupt them. Also this assumes no action is taken to disrupt said rituals.
-They probably don't need navies anyway when, again, magic could summon up some terrible fleet of aquatic monsters.
And once again magic can banish said aquatic monsters. I did assume near parity in magical resources. To do otherwise is to stray away from the way the geo-political situation in the setting is set up. If magical parity does not exist the situation in the FRCG would never have settled into an uneasy detente. Someone would simply dominate.
-It states that Sembia is firmly under control of Netheril. There isn't that much resistance to the Shadovar, and the Sembians are profiting nicely from the Netherese. (Shadow Caravans anyone?)
Yes it implies quite simply that they are happy as long as they make money, they are happy. Good old Sembians greedy as ever. If they suddenly are not making as much money, and an opportunity presents itself to make more I think their "LOYALTY" would certainly waver. They are not in it for the Netherese, they are in it to make money, add forced religious conversion for the commoners and you have a recipe for disaster.
-Najara has plenty to gain from increased slave stock from Netheril. They know that the Shadovar profit them greatly with their assistance. Najara doesn't even have to try to conquer Evereska: it could merely harrass it until Netheril has conquered Luruar.
Once again look at the map. The terrain Netheril would have to attack over is horrendous, and I know magic. Once again magic parity is required or things would not be believable in the least. Najara profits much more by continuing to quietly grow, rather then making the mistake of becoming a target. Also going after Luruar would probably be the worst target Netheril coul dpick in this situation, since it would guarantee a rapid obliteration of Sembia. Netheril is in the unenviable position of being surrounded by potential enemies.
-Netheril's army strength isn't mentioned, but I know for sure many of their mages match or exceed the War Wizards or Myth Drannor.
Once again magic parity in this situation has to be assumed or else things would not be as they are. If there ability to use Ritual Magic was so much greater, they would have invaded and rolled countries over long ago. The way things are described it appears to be more of an everybody is too afraid of the cost to want to find out. The conquering of Sembia by the Shadovar was an attempt to solidify their position by gaining the manpower to back up the other half of the equation.
-Look at the Dutch. They were rich and thus had a very powerful merchant fleet. Who says Sembia isn't the same? Their navy, while probably not as well-trained or disciplined as Cormyr's Royal Navy, will not be easy to destroy. In fact, with Netheril assistance, Sembia might be able to re-rout the Blue Dragons. This is where the PCs come in.
Sembia definitely has a merchant fleet. It ain't trading when its fighting a war is it? If we are going to assume Blue Dragons are available to the Netherese, well lets bust out some Silvers for Myth Drannor. I understand you want to do this for a campaign, I am just trying to help you out.
-If Thay has managed to install a fortress in Aglarond and Aglarond hasn't even responded to it, what makes one think the kingdom will be able to overpower Szass Tam's legions? Also realize, although Algarond fended off Thay's latest sieges, it has been considerably weakened. Another attack, especially with help from Netheril, would cripple it. Again, PCs come in.
And everyone else sits around while they do this. If we are playing with vertical and spatial envelopment via magic and allies, both sides get to play the game. You see whoever commits to this line of reasoning first loses. Netheril send a whole lot of forces to Thay to crush Aglarond. The rest of us know where all these Shadovar are coming from and concentrate on their main source. So you get Aglarond and Netheril loses their home base, because the Silver Alliance concentrates its force where you are suddenly weaker. They are not reacting to your ill considered attack, now you must react to their better considered attack. The Netherese and Thay both have well known, and fewer centers of power than the Silver Alliance. These centers are both what needs to be most protected and at the same time is where their power projects from. This places them at a net disadvantage in this game of magical leap frog.
-I realize the Shadovar will eventually realize Szass Tam's real effects of the ritual, and I want this to be the climax of the campaign: a reluctant alliance of the Silver League and Netheril against Thay, who has by now, thanks to Shadovar assistance, become the most powerful country in Toril. Its undead legions are pulled from every corner of the megacontinent, from Koryo to Calimshan to Zakhara. If it was saved by the PCs earlier, or if Algarond managed to fend off Thay's earlier attack on its own, by now, would be a massive battlefield, with allied armies from the Silver League/Netherese combined, against Thay's recently released flood of undead and other horrors. It's up to the PCs to find Szass Tam and kill him before his ritual is complete.
Well this makes it sound as if the Shadovar would be so imprudent as to allow Szass Tam to get the upper hand. Of course if your last bit is what matters, do you really need armageddon as a backdrop.
Ultimately, although I like your realistic way of thinking, Szass Tam or the Shadovar could pull up anything nasty via magic. Perhaps demon/goblinoid/orc mercenaries strengthen Netheril's armies, maybe from the Border Forest or from other realms. Thay's numberless undead legions would be more than a match against puny Algarond, and if Algarond tried to evacuate by sea, who knows what would be conjured out of the water?
Throughout you have assumed that magical parity or near parity does not exist. If it does not exist in this scenario realize that what has gone before makes little sense, and the detente evident in the setting would never have come about.
In discussing this I really have to question what you want out of this. It sounds as if you really won't have anything left after you are done with this magical doomsday. I would advise against something on this scale as a planned campaign. They usually sound better than they play out.
As to teleporting troops... possible perhaps, but given what I know of 4e's limitations on teleportation, a lot of the advantage of vertical envelopment, or even simple strategic redeployment, is lost by absolutely needing to hold a piece of ground to maintain a resupply point, and hence vulnerability to being disrupted and rendered ineffective if that link is lost. No supply, no army... at least not one worth fielding in a war. Even worse, in the strategic redeployment scenario, having that link cut is going to place remarkable strain on your allies supply situation as well, weakening not just you, but them as well as they pick up the burden of having to supply not only themselves, but your cut off troops.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) ;)
Second, I'm gonna do what I do best and counterattack in any way I can.
-Bankrupt? And who says Szass Tam can't just pull out infinite gp from his pocket? Level 33 bad-ass anyone? The Netherese got Sembia under their thumb for a reason--probably out of money. LOTS.
-Magic probably wouldn't necessarily banish said monsters. Say the Shadow League got the Aboleths on their side. These creatures would be very hard to simply kill/banish with a flick of a wand. They have their share of...I can't call it magic, but special abilities. Also mind the Shadovar/Thayan wards that could protect this living fleet. Which is entirely dispellable--hence the PCs.
-The Empire of Netheril is probably well aware that Sembia was, and continues to be, a country of wealth and greed. In order to specifically counter what you implied, they would probably barter a deal with the merchant princes to keep Sembia under Shadovar rule and fight Cormyr.
-I wouldn't say a Netherese assault on Luruar would result in disaster. Sembia seems to hold its own, at least for a while, against Cormyr, although that war 40 years ago would probably say otherwise.
-The Twelve Princes are probably well aware of the fact that they're literally surrounded by determined neighbors, and this is why, again, they would probably hire as many mercenaries as possible. Goblonoids, orcs, demons, or veteran soldiers could probably fight for Netheril ('s gold).
-Netheril's magic power would be a tough fight, that's for sure. I'm pretty sure the reason why it hasn't rolled over its neighbors long ago was due to the fact that either a)Sembia wasn't under its thumb yet, b)The Twelve Princes didn't feel very confident as they do now when the Northern Wars begin, and c)They probably didn't even have enough military power at the time. This time, with mercenaries and Najara behind it, Netheril would be a much bigger threat than initially described.
-O-o...the Blue Dragons are the navy of Cormyr. I think you mistook it for Sembia's navy.
A big merchant fleet would probably equal a powerful military fleet. It isn't hard (at least with the assistance of magic) to re-fit it for war. And then, consider the magical protection the fleet could get. You did say it could be counterspelled, and this is entirely possible, but then the OTHER side tries to DE-counterspell the counterspellars, and...thus, a battle begins.;)
-Although I'm well aware of the fact that both sides have adepts at magic, you gotta realize that, as a major power in Faerun, Netheril probably wouldn't have to send regular troops to Thay to destroy Aglarond. It's a simple matter of conjuring up legions of shadowthings from the Shadowfell to assist the Thayan undead/monster armies, while at the same time it's a simple matter for the Silver League to get help from the Feywild. Massive battle ensues.
Although as you said these things from the Shadowfell could be destroyed by magic, the Shadovar are probably well aware of this and make sure they're as protected from magic as possible. Again, a battle ensues.
-Pretty much. Szass Tam has nearly completed his ritual thanks to the Shadovar and the PCs find only but a taste of what could be. If he is this powerful now, by flooding Faerun with undead horrors pulled from every corner of the earth, just think of what he could be when the ritual is finally done. It isn't necessarily Armageddon (at first), but it quickly becomes apparent that it WILL be the end if they don't haul ass to Thay.
-After said magical apocolypse, the campaign's over. Or at least, if the PCs want it to be over. There's still things to do: perhaps join in a Amn/Baldur's Gate/Waterdeep colonization effort to a far-off continent in a European-style discovery of a New World. Or, if they haven't by now, transcend the physical world and go on to fight the evil gods or the archdevils themselves.
Or, we just start a campaign in Kara-Tur. :]
First off, glad we're actually having a conversation that doesn't involve shouting. I presented a similar question like this in another board and was promptly flamed. =D
Second, I'm gonna do what I do best and counterattack in any way I can.
-Bankrupt? And who says Szass Tam can't just pull out infinite gp from his pocket? Level 33 bad-ass anyone? The Netherese got Sembia under their thumb for a reason--probably out of money. LOTS.
-Magic probably wouldn't necessarily banish said monsters. Say the Shadow League got the Aboleths on their side. These creatures would be very hard to simply kill/banish with a flick of a wand. They have their share of...I can't call it magic, but special abilities. Also mind the Shadovar/Thayan wards that could protect this living fleet. Which is entirely dispellable--hence the PCs.
-The Empire of Netheril is probably well aware that Sembia was, and continues to be, a country of wealth and greed. In order to specifically counter what you implied, they would probably barter a deal with the merchant princes to keep Sembia under Shadovar rule and fight Cormyr.
-I wouldn't say a Netherese assault on Luruar would result in disaster. Sembia seems to hold its own, at least for a while, against Cormyr, although that war 40 years ago would probably say otherwise.
-The Twelve Princes are probably well aware of the fact that they're literally surrounded by determined neighbors, and this is why, again, they would probably hire as many mercenaries as possible. Goblonoids, orcs, demons, or veteran soldiers could probably fight for Netheril ('s gold).
-Netheril's magic power would be a tough fight, that's for sure. I'm pretty sure the reason why it hasn't rolled over its neighbors long ago was due to the fact that either a)Sembia wasn't under its thumb yet, b)The Twelve Princes didn't feel very confident as they do now when the Northern Wars begin, and c)They probably didn't even have enough military power at the time. This time, with mercenaries and Najara behind it, Netheril would be a much bigger threat than initially described.
-O-o...the Blue Dragons are the navy of Cormyr. I think you mistook it for Sembia's navy.
A big merchant fleet would probably equal a powerful military fleet. It isn't hard (at least with the assistance of magic) to re-fit it for war. And then, consider the magical protection the fleet could get. You did say it could be counterspelled, and this is entirely possible, but then the OTHER side tries to DE-counterspell the counterspellars, and...thus, a battle begins.;)
-Although I'm well aware of the fact that both sides have adepts at magic, you gotta realize that, as a major power in Faerun, Netheril probably wouldn't have to send regular troops to Thay to destroy Aglarond. It's a simple matter of conjuring up legions of shadowthings from the Shadowfell to assist the Thayan undead/monster armies, while at the same time it's a simple matter for the Silver League to get help from the Feywild. Massive battle ensues.
Although as you said these things from the Shadowfell could be destroyed by magic, the Shadovar are probably well aware of this and make sure they're as protected from magic as possible. Again, a battle ensues.
-Pretty much. Szass Tam has nearly completed his ritual thanks to the Shadovar and the PCs find only but a taste of what could be. If he is this powerful now, by flooding Faerun with undead horrors pulled from every corner of the earth, just think of what he could be when the ritual is finally done. It isn't necessarily Armageddon (at first), but it quickly becomes apparent that it WILL be the end if they don't haul ass to Thay.
-After said magical apocolypse, the campaign's over. Or at least, if the PCs want it to be over. There's still things to do: perhaps join in a Amn/Baldur's Gate/Waterdeep colonization effort to a far-off continent in a European-style discovery of a New World. Or, if they haven't by now, transcend the physical world and go on to fight the evil gods or the archdevils themselves.
Or, we just start a campaign in Kara-Tur. :]
None of this answers the points raised by any of us. If you want to create an RSE in your FR campaign that is clearly your prerogative. I have given you all the reasons I can think of as to why what you are suggesting is less than believable. The counterarguments you have given in response don't address any of the points in a reasonable fashion, in other words they are brushed over with a blanket statement of infinite magic, infinite gold. If you have in mind that the Shadow League spreads forth and kicks unholy butt, only to be stopped by the PC's good for you. I just know as a PC I would not find it very compelling, because it would seem to be very stock, and very contrived. Anyway I wish you luck with your game, and hope the discourse makes you think in greater detail as to what you want to do. Clearly I don't know your players and they may have none of the problems I have with what you have laid out.
None of this answers the points raised by any of us. If you want to create an RSE in your FR campaign that is clearly your prerogative. I have given you all the reasons I can think of as to why what you are suggesting is less than believable. The counterarguments you have given in response don't address any of the points in a reasonable fashion, in other words they are brushed over with a blanket statement of infinite magic, infinite gold. If you have in mind that the Shadow League spreads forth and kicks unholy butt, only to be stopped by the PC's good for you. I just know as a PC I would not find it very compelling, because it would seem to be very stock, and very contrived. Anyway I wish you luck with your game, and hope the discourse makes you think in greater detail as to what you want to do. Clearly I don't know your players and they may have none of the problems I have with what you have laid out.
Per the blanket statement of infinite gold, infinite magic--that is called the Forgotten Realms, my friend. :D ;) I greatly appreciate your input though, and even if you claim all my counterarguments were irrelevant, well, all I'm gonna say is--no matter what any of us say, anything can factor in favor of the Silver or Shadow League, for the better or for the worse. What are those factors? That's for the DM to decide.
Well, nothing's fair in Toril, is it? ;)
I re-read the Campaign Guide, and I got to say I think my counterarguments are a bit valid. I'm pretty sure I answered the points you guys tossed at me, but the problem is, you probably just don't think it's fair.
Well, nothing's fair in Toril, is it? ;)
Fine, I'll bite.
-Bankrupt? And who says Szass Tam can't just pull out infinite gp from his pocket? Level 33 bad-ass anyone? The Netherese got Sembia under their thumb for a reason--probably out of money. LOTS.
Szass Tam is a Level 30 Elite Artillery per p.275 FRCG. Nowhere does it mention that Thay has unlimited resources, nor does it mention Szass Tam gets unlimited resources. Unlimited resources in no way contributes to a setting being even remotely believable. The Netherese need an economy to afford “world conquest”. It still does not provide unlimited resources. Also in the Sembia entry there are many references pointing out that Sembia is not nearly as under the thumb as Netheril would like.
-Magic probably wouldn't necessarily banish said monsters. Say the Shadow League got the Aboleths on their side. These creatures would be very hard to simply kill/banish with a flick of a wand. They have their share of...I can't call it magic, but special abilities. Also mind the Shadovar/Thayan wards that could protect this living fleet. Which is entirely dispellable--hence the PCs.
Yes, the Shadow League is going to trust beings they can’t fathom or understand in the slightest as allies. This does not even have a shred of credibility. I can expect Szass Tam to start chanting to Chthulhu any moment now. Once again your game, don’t expect it to make any sense to others. This is one of those things that makes zero sense to me, maybe I am just a stick in the mud.
-The Empire of Netheril is probably well aware that Sembia was, and continues to be, a country of wealth and greed. In order to specifically counter what you implied, they would probably barter a deal with the merchant princes to keep Sembia under Shadovar rule and fight Cormyr.
I am sure they are, which is why a war in 1479 DR and probably for some time in the future will not be an optimum choice for them. The Moonsea cities is a much more likely target, along with The Ride, for future Netherese expansion. This would have the added benefit of pressuring Myth Drannor. If they pull the trigger now they get kicked like a puppy even with a long list of allies who have nothing in common with them, and ultimately don’t benefit them.
-I wouldn't say a Netherese assault on Luruar would result in disaster. Sembia seems to hold its own, at least for a while, against Cormyr, although that war 40 years ago would probably say otherwise.
Look at the maps. Have fun with mountain warfare. Oh, that’s right we are going to use unlimited resources, and unlimited magic to teleport everything where it needs to be. So while they are doing that everyone on their border kicks in the back door. Not much fun winning if your house gets burnt down.
-The Twelve Princes are probably well aware of the fact that they're literally surrounded by determined neighbors, and this is why, again, they would probably hire as many mercenaries as possible. Goblonoids, orcs, demons, or veteran soldiers could probably fight for Netheril ('s gold).
Mercenaries cost money, lots of money. Also read “Netheril-Empire of Magic” sometime (a TSR Arcane Age product), it might enlighten you as to the Sahdes feelings about goblinoids, orcs, etc. Outside of that we are once again assuming unlimited resources.
-Netheril's magic power would be a tough fight, that's for sure. I'm pretty sure the reason why it hasn't rolled over its neighbors long ago was due to the fact that either a)Sembia wasn't under its thumb yet, b)The Twelve Princes didn't feel very confident as they do now when the Northern Wars begin, and c)They probably didn't even have enough military power at the time. This time, with mercenaries and Najara behind it, Netheril would be a much bigger threat than initially described.
Sembia has been under their thumb for a hundred years, and still it is not completely reliable. Read the entry. The Twelve Princes have not survived as long as they have by being hasty, or stupid. Once again you mention things requiring unlimited resources, or allying with power blocks who have nothing in common, cannot be relied upon, and are ultimately easily neutralized. Coordinating with them also makes you vulnerable.
-O-o...the Blue Dragons are the navy of Cormyr. I think you mistook it for Sembia's navy.
No I thought you were saying the Netherese have an alliance with Blue Dragons I did not know about.
A big merchant fleet would probably equal a powerful military fleet. It isn't hard (at least with the assistance of magic) to re-fit it for war. And then, consider the magical protection the fleet could get. You did say it could be counterspelled, and this is entirely possible, but then the OTHER side tries to DE-counterspell the counterspellars, and...thus, a battle begins.
Merchant fleets make money by trade, and by hauling trade items to market. The concept that Sembian merchant houses have instant communication with, and complete control of their fleets, reflect once again unlimited magic, unlimited resources. In reality a Merchant Captain is going to do what needs to be done for profit. Sembia has a long history of military failures because they are too self serving. Individual Captains are going to do what is best for their ship, and hence what is best for their company. So this idea of having some mighty Sembian fleet of merchant ships fitted for war is ludicrous. They are simply going to continue trading elsewhere, and come home when the fireworks die down.
-Although I'm well aware of the fact that both sides have adepts at magic, you gotta realize that, as a major power in Faerun, Netheril probably wouldn't have to send regular troops to Thay to destroy Aglarond. It's a simple matter of conjuring up legions of shadowthings from the Shadowfell to assist the Thayan undead/monster armies, while at the same time it's a simple matter for the Silver League to get help from the Feywild. Massive battle ensues.
Have you bothered to look at how things like this are handled. They require constant attention. You don’t get to summon up a horde of demons and put them on autopilot. Once again unlimited magic, unlimited resources.
Although as you said these things from the Shadowfell could be destroyed by magic, the Shadovar are probably well aware of this and make sure they're as protected from magic as possible. Again, a battle ensues.
Again unlimited magic, unlimited resources.
-Pretty much. Szass Tam has nearly completed his ritual thanks to the Shadovar and the PCs find only but a taste of what could be. If he is this powerful now, by flooding Faerun with undead horrors pulled from every corner of the earth, just think of what he could be when the ritual is finally done. It isn't necessarily Armageddon (at first), but it quickly becomes apparent that it WILL be the end if they don't haul ass to Thay.
I imagine Netheril will cheerfully help him finish designing the ritual and assist him in casting it too.
-After said magical apocolypse, the campaign's over. Or at least, if the PCs want it to be over. There's still things to do: perhaps join in a Amn/Baldur's Gate/Waterdeep colonization effort to a far-off continent in a European-style discovery of a New World. Or, if they haven't by now, transcend the physical world and go on to fight the evil gods or the archdevils themselves.
Once again your campaign to do with as you want. You did however post it here to get feedback. My feedback is as it was before. You did not provide valid counterpoints, they boil down to unlimited resources, unlimited magic. I don’t know where you get that out of the setting, but like I said it’s your game, just don’t expect meaningful input if you are going to stray so far off from the baseline. I hope you see why I do not see the point of continuing to discuss this with you. Enjoy the game.
Now, I understand you need resources to forge swords and armor, and to construct forts and ships. So no, I did not mean "unlimited resources", I meant "unlimited gold". All right, so maybe Szass Tam wouldn't be able to pull infinite gp out of his pocket. However, with Sembia as an ally, you'd think that money wouldn't really be an issue for the SL. But for the Twelve Princes, again, money probably wouldn't be an issue with Sembia. Yes, I know there are resistance cells, but both parties are evidently benefiting, and even if Sembia tried to revolt, the sight of Sakkors is enough to put them back in line.
There was mention of the monsters in the Border Forest "one day uniting under Netheril's banner". So even if the Twelve Princes don't like them, perhaps they would be that despoerate?
You don't have to feed an undead army. You don't have to inspire them or give them morale. They're ruthless undead killers, never tiring, never afraid, and I see this as a advantage on Thay's side. On the other hand, if Aglarond and its allies had clerics that were able to revoke undead, that would provide a problem. Hence, Thay's more living armies. So you saying Aglarond would be able to overrun Thay is a bit debatable.
In Najara's case, mountain warfare wouldn't be a problem if one or more of the parties are accustomed to it. Look at the area around the Shade Enclave. Mountains. Probably infested with monsters when the region was still called "Anauroch". They are probably by now wiped clean by Netheril's armies, so what makes you think mountain warfare will be an issue? And the yuan-ti of Najara are probably pretty adept at that kind of warfare, mostly because it's their homeland.
You seem to be one of those people that have a very rigid view on warfare, as though everything expects to happen as planned in a war, that there are no outside factors or turning points. Look, like I said, I appreciate your input, but just like you say that my arguments are invalid, I have just as much reason to claim your reasoning are void. I'd appreciate it if you were a little more soft on your tone, even if you think you're superior to me in every way. :|
I don't necassarily mean "unlimited resources, unlimited magic," so don't put it that way. I don't exactly see your "realistic" views as valid either like you see my ideas, even if you claim you put arcane power into account. Do you even know who the Shadovar are? Netherese individuals who spent too much time in the Shadowfell. So what makes you think they wouldn't have experience with shadowbeings that they conjured from, oh, I don't know, the Shadowfell?
I definitely know who the Shadovar are. Where did I say they had no experience with shadowbeings? Don't put words in my mouth that did not originate there. Read what I wrote, I was referring to the fact that controlling/summoning has changed from 3.x to 4E. Technically we don't even have rules for it, but from what other changes are in similar circumstances (animal companions) we can surmise that the days of summoning and controlling a horde of critters are over in D&D. It's pretty obvious you are using the 4E setting I only assumed you were using 4E rules.
Now, I understand you need resources to forge swords and armor, and to construct forts and ships. So no, I did not mean "unlimited resources", I meant "unlimited gold". All right, so maybe Szass Tam wouldn't be able to pull infinite gp out of his pocket. However, with Sembia as an ally, you'd think that money wouldn't really be an issue for the SL. But for the Twelve Princes, again, money probably wouldn't be an issue with Sembia. Yes, I know there are resistance cells, but both parties are evidently benefiting, and even if Sembia tried to revolt, the sight of Sakkors is enough to put them back in line.
You are forgetting that all your teleportational movements, summonings, conjurations, are all Rituals. Rituals require components with monetary value. Money is how the Shadovar keep the Sembian collaborators/government happy. Ever try getting large sums of money out of a miser for a high risk venture? My guess is not, and in this case the Sembians would certainly voice their opinion that the ROI is too low and the RISK way too high, and they would most likely offer other solutions to accomplishing their goals. Who said anything about Sembia revolting without cause? I said Sembia would be more and more likely to revolt based on the progress of the war, which based on what I have laid out has a higher chance of going poorly rather than well. Are they really going to bring Sakkors out to play when all it takes is one of two rituals to take it out. It's great for scaring the locals, but when you have serious mystic opposition it is wiser to make sure that your tools of governance don't get smacked by a big damn rock, and take out everything you so neatly stacked on it. Brash, ill considered movements are a recipe for disaster. In other words don't put all your eggs in one basket and then set the basket in the middle of a busy street.
There was mention of the monsters in the Border Forest "one day uniting under Netheril's banner". So even if the Twelve Princes don't like them, perhaps they would be that despoerate?
I really don't know where you get this from? The critters in the Border Forest are FEY, take a guess who they would side with?
You don't have to feed an undead army. You don't have to inspire them or give them morale. They're ruthless undead killers, never tiring, never afraid, and I see this as a advantage on Thay's side. On the other hand, if Aglarond and its allies had clerics that were able to revoke undead, that would provide a problem. Hence, Thay's more living armies. So you saying Aglarond would be able to overrun Thay is a bit debatable.
Once again putting words in my mouth. I never said Aglarond would roll over Thay. To succeed all they have to do is hold out. They never need to go on the offensive, in this scenario, to effectively win. Winning does not mean conquering.
In Najara's case, mountain warfare wouldn't be a problem if one or more of the parties are accustomed to it. Look at the area around the Shade Enclave. Mountains. Probably infested with monsters when the region was still called "Anauroch". They are probably by now wiped clean by Netheril's armies, so what makes you think mountain warfare will be an issue? And the yuan-ti of Najara are probably pretty adept at that kind of warfare, mostly because it's their homeland.
You do realize that no matter how much experience you have in mountain warfare, it is never fun, and never easy. You do realize that to attack Luruar or Evereska involves attacking through guess what; MOUNTAINS. Mountains are a force multiplier for defenders nine times out of ten. Attacking through mountainous terrain takes away maneuverability, speed of advance, increases your vulnerability to ambush, puts strain on supply lines, and while you are moving the opponent is digging in. So add to the fact that they may have decent field fortifications which are another force multiplier. In other words attacking through mountains is always a costly affair and will on average cost you 8 soldiers for every one of their you kill. That kind of math sucks. Lastly who is attacking Najara?
You seem to be one of those people that have a very rigid view on warfare, as though everything expects to happen as planned in a war, that there are no outside factors or turning points.
Ummmm...no. I have studied the history of warfare, experienced, been involved in practicing martial skills for roughly thirty years now. I have lead men in dangerous situations, and I have never been found wanting in my tactical and strategic analysis. In fact most of the time things I have seen coming happen. To be blunt these two alliances fail form the go just from the diplomatic angle. In order for states to cooperate they need common ground, common goals, shared areas of interest, shared spheres of influence, and a desire to cooperate. This sound like nothing more than a "We are EVILLL and we need to get together to go kick the GOOD guys butts." That is how cohesive this Shadow League seems from your description, but hey whatever, if that is how you want to go with it good for you. It's not my fault that the lack of these factors inevitably plays into any reasonable analysis of the situation. Could someone possibly come to the aid of either side? Yes, but this is something you can't prepare for or argue. It is something that needs to be dealt with when and if it occurs to the best of ones abilities, using trained knowledge, skill, sound reasoning, and gut instinct.
Look, like I said, I appreciate your input, but just like you say that my arguments are invalid, I have just as much reason to claim your reasoning are void. I'd appreciate it if you were a little more soft on your tone, even if you think you're superior to me in every way. :|
Sorry, but I disagree. I have provided you with clear objections, within the rules of the game, within the initial lore of the setting, with very basic observation that should be obvious from the real world study of politics, diplomacy, history, and warfare. In other words my observations can be backed up with real world facts with parallels. Yes I know this is a fantasy world and we have magic. This does not presumably change the base emotional make up and thought processes of beings (since after all it is just humans roleplaying if we want to go down that road), and based on that conceit we can reasonably draw a conclusion.
I don't think I am superior to you, or anyone. As far as being soft, when it comes to strategic, and tactical discussions I can do nothing but argue in the most aggressive manner possible. You either convince me you are correct in your analysis using reason or you admit that the situation is based on hope and bias. I realize this is not the real world, and it does not carry any weight in lives, but that is how I have always approached these situations, so where as I apologize for the tone, it is something that is second nature to me in these kinds of discussions. From a gaming viewpoint as DM I want to provide something that holds up under intense scrutiny, and as a player I want the same thing. As you have described the build up, and the reasoning behind the scenario it is lacking. If it is lacking from the beginning how does it withstand the scrutiny of players, and most importantly how does it keep their interest. I don't know your players, so I don't know. I do know that if I tried to run this for my players using your comments as a guide for this campaign, it would be a disaster, and they would tell me so.
I definitely know who the Shadovar are. Where did I say they had no experience with shadowbeings? Don't put words in my mouth that did not originate there. Read what I wrote, I was referring to the fact that controlling/summoning has changed from 3.x to 4E. Technically we don't even have rules for it, but from what other changes are in similar circumstances (animal companions) we can surmise that the days of summoning and controlling a horde of critters are over in D&D. It's pretty obvious you are using the 4E setting I only assumed you were using 4E rules.
Oh no. Although I love to use the pre-Spellplague Realms a lot for certain dissident groups, I am using the 4E Realms with 4E rules. And even if the rules have changed from 3e to 4e, that shouldn't turn the Realms into a world that has to be run by game rules or monster statistics. Those are reserved for the actual gameplay. So just because it's not mentioned that PCs can no longer summon things anymore doesn't mean NPCs can't.
You are forgetting that all your teleportational movements, summonings, conjurations, are all Rituals. Rituals require components with monetary value. Money is how the Shadovar keep the Sembian collaborators/government happy. Ever try getting large sums of money out of a miser for a high risk venture? My guess is not, and in this case the Sembians would certainly voice their opinion that the ROI is too low and the RISK way too high, and they would most likely offer other solutions to accomplishing their goals. Who said anything about Sembia revolting without cause? I said Sembia would be more and more likely to revolt based on the progress of the war, which based on what I have laid out has a higher chance of going poorly rather than well. Are they really going to bring Sakkors out to play when all it takes is one of two rituals to take it out. It's great for scaring the locals, but when you have serious mystic opposition it is wiser to make sure that your tools of governance don't get smacked by a big damn rock, and take out everything you so neatly stacked on it. Brash, ill considered movements are a recipe for disaster. In other words don't put all your eggs in one basket and then set the basket in the middle of a busy street.
Why would it only take a few rituals to take out? Do you really think that Netheril wouldn't guard it closely? No, I am not referring to unlimited magic, I am referring to common sense, especially given Netheril's history.
I really don't know where you get this from? The critters in the Border Forest are FEY, take a guess who they would side with?
I'm gonna have to comb my Campaign Guide to spot this again, but there was mention of it (or so I think).
Once again putting words in my mouth. I never said Aglarond would roll over Thay. To succeed all they have to do is hold out. They never need to go on the offensive, in this scenario, to effectively win. Winning does not mean conquering.
You know, someone once asked "who would win in non-nuclear war, NATO or Warsaw Pact?". "Oh, Warsaw Pact", someone else in the class said, "because it be really hard to conquer the Warsaw Pact--the Soviet Union and its satellite states make up a huge chunk of the world!"
You can already see the faults with that little convo. Cut off the head of the snake, and the body dies. In this case, Moscow. In NATO's case, that would depend. Paris. Brussels. D.C.
Aglarond pins down Thay,
That is exactly what you said. Aglarond would not be able to pin down Thay without help from Cormyr, which would probably be busy with Sembia.
You do realize that no matter how much experience you have in mountain warfare, it is never fun, and never easy. You do realize that to attack Luruar or Evereska involves attacking through guess what; MOUNTAINS. Mountains are a force multiplier for defenders nine times out of ten. Attacking through mountainous terrain takes away maneuverability, speed of advance, increases your vulnerability to ambush, puts strain on supply lines, and while you are moving the opponent is digging in. So add to the fact that they may have decent field fortifications which are another force multiplier. In other words attacking through mountains is always a costly affair and will on average cost you 8 soldiers for every one of their you kill. That kind of math sucks. Lastly who is attacking Najara?
All right, attacking either Evereska or Luruar would be pretty challenging. Let's say that the Silver League somehow managed to pierce Netheril's homeland. Would that be treacherous and dangerous? This isn't a sarcastic question, I really want your input on this.
Ummmm...no. I have studied the history of warfare, experienced, been involved in practicing martial skills for roughly thirty years now. I have lead men in dangerous situations, and I have never been found wanting in my tactical and strategic analysis. In fact most of the time things I have seen coming happen. To be blunt these two alliances fail form the go just from the diplomatic angle. In order for states to cooperate they need common ground, common goals, shared areas of interest, shared spheres of influence, and a desire to cooperate. This sound like nothing more than a "We are EVILLL and we need to get together to go kick the GOOD guys butts." That is how cohesive this Shadow League seems from your description, but hey whatever, if that is how you want to go with it good for you. It's not my fault that the lack of these factors inevitably plays into any reasonable analysis of the situation. Could someone possibly come to the aid of either side? Yes, but this is something you can't prepare for or argue. It is something that needs to be dealt with when and if it occurs to the best of ones abilities, using trained knowledge, skill, sound reasoning, and gut instinct.
It seems, then, that in order to create the perfect scenario, we must have nothing that is too realistic, or too campy. I can definitely see the Shadow League as a very strained alliance. For one, Thay doesn't worship Shar (to my knowledge). Nations usually work better together under a common philosophy or religion (like WWI and WWII, although the UK did declare war on Finland).
Let's go back to the idea of Netheril trying to get otherworldly beings on its side, going as far as to recruit demons from the Abyss. I understand that this would not go well in the very end, and the Shadovar actually don't have experience with things from the Abyss (?). Even if Netheril recruiting goblonoids, orcs, and other things to fight for it would seem moderately dangerous at best, would Netheril be that desperate? Maybe. This probably wouldn't go well with you and your groups since from what you're saying, you tend to lean towards more...ah, realistic warfare.
Sorry, but I disagree. I have provided you with clear objections, within the rules of the game, within the initial lore of the setting, with very basic observation that should be obvious from the real world study of politics, diplomacy, history, and warfare. In other words my observations can be backed up with real world facts with parallels. Yes I know this is a fantasy world and we have magic. This does not presumably change the base emotional make up and thought processes of beings (since after all it is just humans roleplaying if we want to go down that road), and based on that conceit we can reasonably draw a conclusion.
Well said.
I don't think I am superior to you, or anyone. As far as being soft, when it comes to strategic, and tactical discussions I can do nothing but argue in the most aggressive manner possible. You either convince me you are correct in your analysis using reason or you admit that the situation is based on hope and bias. I realize this is not the real world, and it does not carry any weight in lives, but that is how I have always approached these situations, so where as I apologize for the tone, it is something that is second nature to me in these kinds of discussions. From a gaming viewpoint as DM I want to provide something that holds up under intense scrutiny, and as a player I want the same thing. As you have described the build up, and the reasoning behind the scenario it is lacking. If it is lacking from the beginning how does it withstand the scrutiny of players, and most importantly how does it keep their interest. I don't know your players, so I don't know. I do know that if I tried to run this for my players using your comments as a guide for this campaign, it would be a disaster, and they would tell me so.
Hope and bias? I would say, again, that warfare can be flexible. There are plenty things you have to factor in from many different points, not just geography, resources, or commerce. While I agree Netheril's in a very tough spot at the moment, I don't think it will go down with a whimper.
I do run into some picky players, but for the most part a lot of my groups really don't delve into 500-page essays about how Netheril decided to go on the attack.
Oh no. Although I love to use the pre-Spellplague Realms a lot for certain dissident groups, I am using the 4E Realms with 4E rules. And even if the rules have changed from 3e to 4e, that shouldn't turn the Realms into a world that has to be run by game rules or monster statistics. Those are reserved for the actual gameplay. So just because it's not mentioned that PCs can no longer summon things anymore doesn't mean NPCs can't.
This may be true, but how do you expect to carry on a conversation with anyone, if you are going to change the baseline on the fly to support your argument. I don't know that you are going to allow people to summon hordes of demons. Of course then this brings up the question of why GOOD INC. is not summoning "GOOD" extraplanar critters, unless that is something that we find out the next time you don't have a real answer.
Why would it only take a few rituals to take out? Do you really think that Netheril wouldn't guard it closely? No, I am not referring to unlimited magic, I am referring to common sense, especially given Netheril's history.
Sakkors and Shade Enclave are essentially rocks with cities on them. What happens when the Ritual Shift Mote is used on an existing Earth Mote and used to essentially kamikaze it into one of these cities. The other Ritual was Raise Land, just in case you need to produce an earth mote. So for the whopping price of 50,000gp or 175,000gp you can say good bye to one of them. Very affordable for the Silver Alliance, of course Sakkors and Shade Enclave are worth so much more to the Shadovar intact. It make no sense to risk them in actual battle, they are big, slow, easy targets.
I'm gonna have to comb my Campaign Guide to spot this again, but there was mention of it (or so I think).
If you find it please post page numbers, I looked and could not find it.
You know, someone once asked "who would win in non-nuclear war, NATO or Warsaw Pact?". "Oh, Warsaw Pact", someone else in the class said, "because it be really hard to conquer the Warsaw Pact--the Soviet Union and its satellite states make up a huge chunk of the world!"
You can already see the faults with that little convo. Cut off the head of the snake, and the body dies. In this case, Moscow. In NATO's case, that would depend. Paris. Brussels. D.C.
Thanks for the history lesson, I lived through it. How is this relevant to the conversation at all unless you want to bring it up in support of the Silver Alliance. Think about what you are saying.
That is exactly what you said. Aglarond would not be able to pin down Thay without help from Cormyr, which would probably be busy with Sembia.
Is Thay sending troops elsewhere while Aglarond is sitting on its border? Probably not. Hence it is pinned down. It can't project power sufficiently to matter. That is all Aglarond needs to do. Aglarond has been fighting Thay for over a hundred years, I think they can hold on at least one more year without outside help.
All right, attacking either Evereska or Luruar would be pretty challenging. Let's say that the Silver League somehow managed to pierce Netheril's homeland. Would that be treacherous and dangerous? This isn't a sarcastic question, I really want your input on this.
Why would they? The strategic weak points of Netheril lie in Sembia. It is the source of wealth, the basis of their economy, their link to the rest of the world, their link to resources, Netheril needs Sembia to survive and grow. Without Sembia they are essentially a cabal of Shade Wizards who are overreaching their grasp. If Sembia goes down, Netheril is in a world of hurt. All Luruar and Evereska need to do, is mobilize and make a lot of noise, enough to keep Netherese eyes on them. Cormyr is the principal attacker on Sembia, and Myth Drannor and the Dales make sure that the Netherese can't reinforce Sembia. Sembia is the key, not Netheril. Sembia is also where Netheril is weakest, and it is the only place that the Silver Alliance can attack without exposing themselves.
It seems, then, that in order to create the perfect scenario, we must have nothing that is too realistic, or too campy. I can definitely see the Shadow League as a very strained alliance. For one, Thay doesn't worship Shar (to my knowledge). Nations usually work better together under a common philosophy or religion (like WWI and WWII, although the UK did declare war on Finland).
Let's go back to the idea of Netheril trying to get otherworldly beings on its side, going as far as to recruit demons from the Abyss. I understand that this would not go well in the very end, and the Shadovar actually don't have experience with things from the Abyss (?). Even if Netheril recruiting goblonoids, orcs, and other things to fight for it would seem moderately dangerous at best, would Netheril be that desperate? Maybe. This probably wouldn't go well with you and your groups since from what you're saying, you tend to lean towards more...ah, realistic warfare.
Recruiting Goblinoids, Orcs, and other such forces is something the Netherese would find distasteful in the past, who knows they might use them in the current age. My point is this and this responds to the rest of your post as well, you don't have to go this big to get what you want. Involving the Shadow League actually weakens Netherils position. It removes their flexibility, it announces their intentions, it makes them a more obvious threat, it is not something they would likely do. Recruit humanoids and pay them to raid your foes, don't acknowledge them. They are not really useful militarily, because well they could turn on you at any moment. Much better to have them raid your opponents with the assistance of some advisors that you won't acknowledge as being yours. It is much better for Netheril to expand into the Moonsea region, they are already divided, and don't have any truly large military forces. Not to mention Myth Drannor and Cormyr would be hard pressed to aid anyone significantly especially on the North Shore. Time is Netherils friend, haste is not. None of the members of the Shadow League really offer anything to them, they only offer liabilities and concerns. Most of the Silver Alliance already cooperates, but now you would give them a reason to mobilize. It really is a lot like the dance between Nazi Germany, the UK, France, and Russia.
Thanks for the history lesson, I lived through it. How is this relevant to the conversation at all unless you want to bring it up in support of the Silver Alliance. Think about what you are saying.
Just emphasizing on what you said---you don't have to take over an entire country to put it out of commission.