Anyway, while coming up with ways the world of Abeir might differ from it's cousin (and how this would affect Returned Abeir) I found myself wondering what would happen to the souls of the dead of that world.
I doubt they'd go to the Fugue Plane, after all the gods have no power on, or real awareness of, Abeir itself so it would be strange if they went to the same place after death, especially since you think Kelemvor would've noticed the vast swarm of faithless piling in from another world. Of course that raises a few questions:
1) Where do the dead go on Abeir?
My favourite answer for this was that the Dawn Titan Telos was the custodian/devourer/guardian/guide/etc of the dead on Abeir. Assuming you run with this, with Telos' disappearance one can presume the numbers of undead on Abeir skyrocketed.
2) What about Returned Abeir?
Presumably the population of the new continent now go before Kelemvor when they die. If so that's a huge boost in the number of 'faithless' all at once. Should have some interesting implications for Faerunian theology.
In any case, this is intended to be a general speculation thread to that affect. Feel free to add your own questions, come up with your own answers or just build on mine. Enjoy!
As I put forth in the other thread, my notion is that, outside of this confusion, Abeiran funerary practices are probably ritualized affairs involving the cleansing or otherwise warding of departed souls before they can proceed to the afterlife (possibly reincarnation, merging with the elemental spirits of the land, or perhaps being interred within family/community shrines to serve as oracular ancestral spirits). Failure to carry out these rites leaves a soul vulnerable to the Shadowfell, and bears the very real possibility of them becoming corrupted and reemerging into the living world as undead. We already know that Abeir plays host to an entire underworld society of the restless dead; this would go quite a ways towards explaining how it got to be that way.
So far as the nuances of the last rites, that's mostly a matter of roleplaying rather than game mechanics, as I see it. But, it makes for a great background hook. One possible interpretation is that Telos, prior to displacement, served specifically in that his own spirit, or a portion thereof, was what was summoned and served as that guide through the Shadowfell to the soul's final resting place, wherever that might be--and now he's just not coming around to do his job.
As to that final resting place, if you go with that angle--it seems implied that there's been a degree of separation between Abeir and the Astral Sea/Outer Planes (whichever cosmology you like) in the first place, with the Shadowfell serving as the purgatorial transition through which all Abeiran souls must pass.
At the moment, I'm seeing some highly entertaining possibilities for adventures of a Planar nature based around some of these details; having PCs square personally with the disappearance of a primordial (and subsequent reemergence as the sinister force behind the Warlock Knights of Vaasa) and the sudden disarray in the Fugue brought about by the arrival of wayward Abeiran souls. (this just oozes with convoluted Planescape-y goodness)
-Anyway, I am of the opinion that the dead on 'Abeir' go through the same exact process that the dead on Faerûn go through: physical death, traveling to the Fugue Plane, having their spirit/soul picked up by their patron/being judged by Kelemvor. 'Abeir' is a "planet" that exists within Realmspace, on the Prime Material Plane. It's only because it's a massive retcon that we haven't seen it in any Spelljammer products. As such, those on 'Abeir' have the same things happen to them that the people of 'Toril' do, that the people of Selûne do...
-This belongs in the Realmslore section. No worries, I'll have it moved.
-Anyway, I am of the opinion that the dead on 'Abeir' go through the same exact process that the dead on Faerûn go through: physical death, traveling to the Fugue Plane, having their spirit/soul picked up by their patron/being judged by Kelemvor. 'Abeir' is a "planet" that exists within Realmspace, on the Prime Material Plane. It's only because it's a massive retcon that we haven't seen it in any Spelljammer products. As such, those on 'Abeir' have the same things happen to them that the people of 'Toril' do, that the people of Selûne do...
But wouldn´t Kelemor have known that about 50% of all souls that came to him were faithless? Thats kinda tough to believe.
But wouldn´t Kelemor have known that about 50% of all souls that came to him were faithless?
-Why would 50% of the souls that come be him be faithless?
-Why would 50% of the souls that come be him be faithless?
Correct me if I am wrong, but on Abeir they had no gods, they only had primordials and their steeds the Dragons. Now Priordials aren´t gods and they don´t live in their own planes, so there is no Afterlive insurance.
So it might well be, that at least the more powerful 'Dawn Titans' of Abeir have powers similar to the 'Primordial-Deities' of Toril
Primordials might not be gods per definition, but Akadi, Grumbar and the other 'elemental gods' seem to be deities in their own right as they have their own 'realms' amid the elemental chaos and apparently are divine enough to grant spells to their priests.
So it might well be, that at least the more powerful 'Dawn Titans' of Abeir have powers similar to the 'Primordial-Deities' of Toril
Okay checked FRCG and they seem to have priests Realms and Sphere´s so if that means they have clerics...they are gods enough for me.
If the same is true for Abeirs Primordials it could work, but I have seen nothing that states that thats the case. If course there could be a separate afterlive plane for everone on Abeir, or even reincarnation.
Correct me if I am wrong, but on Abeir they had no gods, they only had primordials and their steeds the Dragons. Now Priordials aren´t gods and they don´t live in their own planes, so there is no Afterlive insurance.
Not to mention that page 200 of the FRCG and the Order of the Dawn sidebar on page 201 seem to indicate that very few people on Abeir even worship the Dawn Titans, given that their draconic rulers go to extreme lengths to stamp their cults out, and the primordials themselves don't seem to make much effort to evangelise.
1) Where do the dead go on Abeir?
Into the ground.
Well, it's true.
As for an afterlife? Maybe it's like in the "core setting", where no one knows where the souls of deceased people go. If you really want to be adventurous, make it so there is no afterlife. That might not be popular with some players, but personally I'd be fine with it.
Into the ground.
Well, it's true.
As for an afterlife? Maybe it's like in the "core setting", where no one knows where the souls of deceased people go. If you really want to be adventurous, make it so there is no afterlife. That might not be popular with some players, but personally I'd be fine with it.
I'd find that kind of interesting actually, although it'd take a little thought to fit that into a cosmology that includes undead, resurrection magic and parallel worlds where the dead go to the fugue plane. Would it mean that humans on Abeir don't have souls? (and if so what are the ethical implications of that?) Or do souls just fade away into nothingness after some time has passed Eberron-style?
Into the ground.
Well, it's true.
As for an afterlife? Maybe it's like in the "core setting", where no one knows where the souls of deceased people go. If you really want to be adventurous, make it so there is no afterlife. That might not be popular with some players, but personally I'd be fine with it.
Yes, in the core setting the souls wind up in the Shadowfell until they fade away or are used by some necromancer, this could be why the Eminence of Araunt exists on Abeir, many of the souls are enlisted by the Eminence.
Bel
I'd find that kind of interesting actually, although it'd take a little thought to fit that into a cosmology that includes undead, resurrection magic and parallel worlds where the dead go to the fugue plane. Would it mean that humans on Abeir don't have souls? (and if so what are the ethical implications of that?) Or do souls just fade away into nothingness after some time has passed Eberron-style?
Glad you find it interesting.
The "fade-away" option was more in line with what I was thinking. It's possible to have a soul without there being any afterlife to go to. Maybe the people of Abeir wouldn't even consider it desirable to continue life after death.
That said, even if the people of Abeir didn't have souls, I don't think that would mean their lives were of no worth or meaning (not sure if that was among the ethical implications you were wondering about).
Correct me if I am wrong, but on Abeir they had no gods, they only had primordials and their steeds the Dragons. Now Priordials aren´t gods and they don´t live in their own planes, so there is no Afterlive insurance.
-"Abeir" is for Primordials, that's right, but why wouldn't they accept the spirits/souls of their dead? Demonlords do(did?), Archdevils do (did?), so why would this be different?
-"Abeir" is for Primordials, that's right, but why wouldn't they accept the spirits/souls of their dead? Demonlords do(did?), Archdevils do (did?), so why would this be different?
Perhaps they do, although that raises the question of what qualifies as 'their' dead, (Everyone on Abeir? Or the very few that actually worship the Titans?) and what they actually do with the souls of the dead, since they don't appear to have their own demi-planes that they reside on. (The FRCG seems to imply most of them sleep beneath Abeir's continents)
-"Abeir" is for Primordials, that's right, but why wouldn't they accept the spirits/souls of their dead? Demonlords do(did?), Archdevils do (did?), so why would this be different?
I am not quite shure what happens if a devil or demon can claim a creatures soul after it´s death. I guess it could be used to power evil spells or creatures, or get transformed into a low demon/devil that´s bound to a specific lord.
They don´t provide an afterlife for the faithfull like the gods do (did?), the elves seem sometimes quite eager to die and walk Arvandor together. Without such a fate the willingness of elves to sacrifice their lives for something (Mythal creation) seems a bit missplaced.
In real live most of us aren´t all that certain what awaits us after death - so I like it that at least my characters have something waiting for them. It just helps my vision of heroic storytelling - and if there was no afterlive, letting a character die after an heroic sacrifice would be unthinkable if the group can access raise dead rituals.
I am not quite shure what happens if a devil or demon can claim a creatures soul after it´s death.
-I used the double tenses, as that I don't know how things work in 4e. In 3e, they get their souls, but in 4e, I don't know.