Have designers taken something they thought was a problem with pre-4E and actually turned it into a real problem with Shar in 4E? Discuss your thoughts on the Sharry Shar-ness of the Shar-gotten Realms here!
Anyway too much of a villain is fine in the end because in a game where players are playing heros it is nice to have big threats running about. Making a deity a villain though is almost as bad as making a deity a hero or a uber NPC. Hopefully they downplay the gods and work on the organizations that use the gods for their own ends. That to me is more important than making the gods uber NPCs.
I don't mind Shar; in fact, had they just left her alone, she was pretty cool.
But making a goddess who is all about 'secrets' and doing things 'from the Shadows' as an in-your-face badguy means the designers did not even understand her.
Seriously - what about her has anything to do with Shadows anymore? An empire dedicated to her portfolio exists in the middle of a BRIGHT desert, for Crisakes!
Edit: I have to agree with Rauric - although 4e expanded on many of 3e's mistakes, most of the garbage we hate so much started in 3e.
There ya go in my Realms Mask has Intrigue, Thieves, and Secrets as his whole schtick! This lets Shar be the BBEG god of the FR. At least in my game.;)
His cult is slowly (and SECRETLY!) rising in Faerûn, mostly to the south of the Inner Sea (he's a forgotten Chondathan deity IMG). He's biding his time, and oh-so-carefully taking 'little bites' out of Shar's church.
The new Shar should just be about trying to take over the Realms IMO.
-Ending it, rather. That's her ultimate goal.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) ;)
Shadow stuff is everywhere and it all leads to Shar....back in 2E I thought she was kinda cool but now I can't stand her and every 4E character I make now has a grudge against Shar.
-The problem is really mainly with the Shadovar. Does anyone agree?
I agree, LK, though I wouldn't necessarily call it a problem. I like the Shadovar too much to think of it that way. I'm glad "Netheril" is reborn, just as I'm glad Myth Drannor is reborn, and Cormyr's going strong. It creates an exciting world with very visible forces for good/evil, freedom/conquest, or what have you.
The fact that Shar casts such a huge shadow over the new Realms (pun mostly incidental) doesn't mean she'll play a role in all, or even in many, of my games. Most people of Faerun likely have no idea how close she is or isn't to accomplishing her goals, or even what her goals truly are.
Thus, while she definitely seems to be the BBEG of the Realms, now, I wouldn't go so far as to call them the Shar-gotten Realms. Though, I must admit, that was pretty clever, Therise.
Further in regard to Shar:
One would think Shar is finally ready to make her big push for the end of all things, seeing as she has an Empire more or less in her service. As much is said, in fact, in the novel Shadowrealm. Of course, it's said by a drug-addled cultist, so... :shrugs:
Not every Shadovar truly serves Shar. They seem to serve first Netheril, then themselves, and then, finally, Shar. It really doesn't matter, though, what most Shadovar are doing, as much as what Rivalen, her Chosen, is doing. Recent events in the novels likely make him the most powerful living Sharran in Faerun. Combine Rivalen with the forces of Netheril, the death of Mystra, etc... and she may finally be in a position to make her move.
I'm happy to see the other deities of the Realms having a major influence. I think the complaints about her are overblown; more of a pet problem for a few people on the forums who hate the direction WotC took the Realms than a real issue for 3rd and 4th Edition Realms Dungeon Masters.
Where is the “big impact” of Shar on the 4E Realms? She helped to form the Shadowfell, but all the planes have undergone a transition.
She’s present in the adaption of the H1: Keep on the Shadowfell adventure for the Forgotten Realms, which I’m running every other Monday for my players. I don’t get the “blunt instrument” feeling from how that conversion portrays her worshippers and the actions of her minions.
Rather, their influence is subtle and insidious.
Personally, I really wish they would stop portraying the Gods as high level NPC idiots (Tyr and Helm, Mystra being killed by Cyric etc etc) and instead focused on what their churches and servants do. The whole 4E "Gods are distant" idea they have inserted into the general "assumptions" I seriously hope holds true for once. At this point, Shar has more than enough power and influence to run over Faerun or at least make an attempt to. This does mean that games involving Shar are super easy to run and write, but it's never fun to write a game for me when the PCs can guess the primary antagonist one adventure into the game easily. So I've been very careful to avoid writing anything to do with Shar and such for my first 4E realms games. This means later I can introduce Shar as a more significant antagonist without giving the game away so obviously to my players.
and so are her chosen
so there.
Replaced Our Lady of Mysteries with Selune's sister... gotten another uber-deity.
She is to powerful now.
even if Selune is equally as powerful, Shar is to powerful.
Return Mask
Return Mystra
OR
Elminster for godhood in 09
and
The Simbul for goddess in 09
the god of wizards
the goddess of sorcerers
nough said.
Shar and her Chosen are to powerful
I just like my themes to be in order. Shar is a bit mixed up and it bugs me.
I just don't like how her portfolio does not mesh with her implementation. Like Markus said, the goddess of shadows should not be moving her pieces out in the open for all to see. Furthermore, she is a nihilistic goddess, and returned netheril is anything but.
I just like my themes to be in order. Shar is a bit mixed up and it bugs me.
I think Shar still operates in the shadows. It doesn't strike me as odd that some of her devotees, namely the Shadovar and her Sembian worshipers, operate more openly than in the past. She uses them when she wills, and leaves them to their own devices when it suits her. Most Sharrans are still creeping about to their hidden shrines and serving her in secret in whichever way they perceive best.
The reborn Netheril doesn't serve Shar directly, in truth, rather some of its rulers do. Even among the Princes, devotion to Shar takes a back seat to Netheril's interests, and even to personal agendas in some cases.
Rivalen is the exception, and is the only one we've truly seen come to terms with Shar's ultimate plan for dissolution. Maybe Telamont and some of the Princes are on board as well, but I don't get that impression. If anything, Telamont seems annoyed that Rivalen may eventually put Shar ahead of the Empire. Even Rivalen feels conflicted and hopes to delay the end as long as possible, giving his people their heyday before the end.
I think Shar's as sneaky and secretive as ever. She'd be a fool not to use Netheril to accomplish her aims, but their openness doesn't imply she's suddenly going to drop her own secretive modus operandi. In truth, the Shadovar aren't that open a people, anyway. They openly worship Shar, true, but no one really knows what they have planned at any given time. This is a reflection of their goddess, in my opinion; as well as simply a wise choice by Telamont and his sons.
I guess I'm just reiterating my happiness with the setting as is. It's just my opinion, and I'm not implying that others feel "wrongly".
As to Shar being as omnipresent as Mystra was: I'll consider that thought when Rivalen starts putting his nose into ever major happening in the Realmsverse, as Mystra's Chosen did. I guess we'd need all his brothers to wholeheartedly embrace Shar as well, so that the Lady could have a whole gaggle of Chosen to meddle in the affairs of others. One Chosen would never do the job, after all. One must have a dozen or more to truly make their meddlesome presence felt. We'd have the Twelve Princes in place of the Seven Sisters. ;)
I'm not sniping at fans of Mystra's Chosen. They are/were fine characters. I'm just pointing to the huge difference, in my opinion, between the current situation and the past.
Anyway this may change her views on entopy. Perhaps that aspect of her will die off. With enough people worshipping her perhaps she will not feel the loss and sadness she has felt for eternity.
I just don't really see her portfolio as something to truly justify her power-level, even during 2e.
True.
Maybe much of her power is inherent, rather than a result of a vast sea of worshipers? That would make one wonder what Selune's been doing all these millenia, though.
In the end it may be Netheril that changes Shar. If they force her to be in "the Spotlight" like they are doing then she may have to alter herself since in the end it is the people of Toril that make the gods what they are IMO.
That's an interesting thought. I can't imagine Shar as the Unaligned Goddess of Empire-building, though.
Perhaps that aspect of her will die off. With enough people worshipping her perhaps she will not feel the loss and sadness she has felt for eternity.
Shar would be the emo kid that found acceptance!?
That "aspect" is Shar as far as I can tell. Is she anything more than nihilism-personified and a desire to end everything? I can't imagine her as anything else.
Whether her power is inherent versus gained through worship is probably debatable.
And an fruitless debate that would be. I never really had thought of it before. I think it's an interesting point, and one I might file away for potential future use.
Certainly entropy is a natural force, but at its core, entropic force isn't about ultimate destruction, its about change from one form/state to another in an everturning cycle of transformation. What she represents in canon are things I would view as ultimately weak when it comes down to it... what she should be is another matter entirely however.
I admit I have limited exposure to Shar (and/or her minions) through any sources outside the gaming supplements. "The Twilight War Trilogy" was centered on Shar's designs for Faerun, but other than this one series, I've read very little else.
All that said, I always thought Shar's goal is to end all things; not to destroy them, recreate them, or whatnot, but to literally bring all of creation to void, nothingness, or what have you. Entropy seems the goal of a creature much like 4E's Primordials, and less that of Shar. These Primordials seek to undo the Gods' work of fashioning the world(s), Shar seeks to undo everything, bringing things back to the void of nothingness before even Ao's creation of the primordial chaos.
At least, that's how I always understood her, and Paul Kemp presented her in much that way in the series I named above. That doesn't mean it's the only way, or that it's even in line with previous lore. To that I wouldn't presume to speak. Moreover, I could've misunderstood your post entirely. ;)
...I have a hard time imagining a world where everything didn't want to exist, from the people to the animals to the rocks... spiritually speaking anyway for a lot of it.
Agreed. This would make Shar's worship singularly unappealing for most reasoning beings, one would think. There are those despondent or foolish enough, though, I guess. Shar doesn't offer even a bleak future, she offers no future at all. I'll pass, thank you very much.
While I haven't ever really liked the Shadovar, as I think the idea of Netheril Reborn was one of the more ill-conceived plotlines 3e brought about, along with the Shadow Weave, which was what really killed any fondness for her that I had, I like her as a deity even less.
I didn't initially like the return of the Shades, either. They seem to fit very well, though, in the new 4E Realms. I like the balance of Netheril and it's Sembian puppets against Evereska, Luruar, Myth Drannor, the Dalelands, and Cormyr. It has reenergized things, in my opinion.
Neither did I ever really like the Shadow Weave. I didn't hate it, but I could've done without. I honestly like the Weave-less Realms most of all, regardless of whether it's a retcon of how magic works and/or is accessed by mortals in the setting.
-See, it's like I said: The Shadovar.
Now you sound like a paranoid citizen of Cormyr, LK. :P
She’s present in the adaption of the H1: Keep on the Shadowfell adventure for the Forgotten Realms, which I’m running every other Monday for my players.
This is interesting news, indeed. We are hoping to soon play this module to start an FR Campaign. I hope to play a Shadovar Shadar-Kai Swordmage, so I look forward to seeing if Shar's involvement=Shadovar involvement. It would be tough for my PC to start fighting against his own people at 1st level. If that's the case, I may have to fall back on a Sun Elf, Moon Elf, or even Star Elf Swordmage PC. I hope not, as I'm really looking forward to my PC just as he is.
I don’t get the “blunt instrument” feeling from how that conversion portrays her worshippers and the actions of her minions.
Rather, their influence is subtle and insidious.
I agree.
If you're basing this opinion in part on your experience running KotSF, then I'm all the more pumped to start playing. There's nothing like uncovering sinister cultists and saving the world (or a part of it, at least) at 1st level! (Just from the pre-release advertisements for KotSF, I can only assume that's the general flow of the module).
While I haven't ever really liked the Shadovar, as I think the idea of Netheril Reborn was one of the more ill-conceived plotlines 3e brought about,
For the record: The idea behind the Shadovar was twofold.
One: Support the presence of the Shadow Weave in the Realms in order to diminish the giant Mystra/Chosen presence in the setting (before you lore fanatics take out your pitchforks: Yes, this was a problem).
Two: Bring in an effective group of bad guys that do bad things and succeed at them.
Consider that beforehand you had Red Wizards and (especially) the Zhentarim who were like Keystone Cops. Bumbling, failing, never succeeding no matter how hard they tried. Under TSR’s management (before WotC bought D&D from them), their rules were that evil could not win.
That changed under WotC’s management, so having the Shadovar around gave us a more balanced Realms.
I’d also like to say that I don’t see Shar and the Shadovar as the same thing, because they are not. One isn’t subservient to the other. I think The Shades have always been their own people and have been properly portrayed as such in the novels and sourcebooks.
I agree. If you're basing this opinion in part on your experience running KotSF, then I'm all the more pumped to start playing. There's nothing like uncovering sinister cultists and saving the world (or a part of it, at least) at 1st level! (Just from the pre-release advertisements for KotSF, I can only assume that's the general flow of the module).
Hello Tallric:
Then you're in for a treat, IMO. H1 is a fun adventure that easily lends itself to adaption. I've been able to tweak the back-story even more to make it fit the history of Cormyr in the 4E Realms, but I don't want to give it away.
This adventure is definitely one that's meant to be played. Uncovering any secret Shar holds close is always fun for player characters (and the DM).
I’d also like to say that I don’t see Shar and the Shadovar as the same thing, because they are not. One isn’t subservient to the other. I think The Shades have always been their own people and have been properly portrayed as such in the novels and sourcebooks.
Agreed.
I get the impression that 9 out of 10 Shadovar are more dedicated to the Empire than to Shar.
Hello Tallric:
Then you're in for a treat, IMO. H1 is a fun adventure that easily lends itself to adaption. I've been able to tweak the back-story even more to make it fit the history of Cormyr in the 4E Realms, but I don't want to give it away.
This adventure is definitely one that's meant to be played. Uncovering any secret Shar holds close is always fun for player characters (and the DM).
Nice response. You've got me all fired up to play without giving away a single thing! I'm glad you and your group are enjoying it so much. I think I need to expedite the process for our group just a bit.
Our DM looked over the FR Adaptation article in DRAGON Magazine and was happy with it. We had to come up with backstories placing our six PCs in Cormyr, so I assume that's where we'll be visiting said fortress, as well.
For the record: The idea behind the Shadovar was twofold.
One: Support the presence of the Shadow Weave in the Realms in order to diminish the giant Mystra/Chosen presence in the setting (before you lore fanatics take out your pitchforks: Yes, this was a problem).
Two: Bring in an effective group of bad guys that do bad things and succeed at them.
Consider that beforehand you had Red Wizards and (especially) the Zhentarim who were like Keystone Cops. Bumbling, failing, never succeeding no matter how hard they tried. Under TSR’s management (before WotC bought D&D from them), their rules were that evil could not win.
That changed under WotC’s management, so having the Shadovar around gave us a more balanced Realms.
I’d also like to say that I don’t see Shar and the Shadovar as the same thing, because they are not. One isn’t subservient to the other. I think The Shades have always been their own people and have been properly portrayed as such in the novels and sourcebooks.
I get the reasoning behind them, always did, don't agree with it but that's neither here nor there, but I still think it was an ill-conceived plotline. Better in my opinion to introduce something new, rather than dredging something from the past and reinforcing the idea that the folks in the present are that incompetant and need to be taught a lesson by the masters from the past. I'd have been much happier had they simply replaced the leaderships of various organizations with much more competant people and started moving them, rather than dredging up a people from a failed civilization and showcasing them as the new BBEG.
While I don't agree that Mystra and her Chosen were a problem, unless you let them be of course, I can understand why some would have that impression from their overexposure. I can even understand why a counterbalance would be introduced, and don't really have a problem with the idea when it comes down to it. What I do have a problem with is the means they chose to accomplish that end... there were so many better ways of going about it, and they gave us some incoherent and inconsistent nonsense about a Shadow Weave and a long-dead empire rising again? Couldn't they have just introduced a new form of magic that harnessed raw magic safely through implements and bypassed Mystra altogether, differentiated in the fluff, rather than the mechanics? Couldn't they have come up with something new to introduce, rather than just skimming the lore and popping a floating city into the Realms and compounding those perception problems with magic being too powerful by escalating the situation even further? Maybe come up with a group that used magic in more modern ways, who simply outmaneuvered everyone else by using the same tricks in different ways? I think that would have illustrated the idea that maybe these Chosen were past it and not able to keep up to date, and had to make room for new heroes to take up the mantle from the old guard and lead us into a brave new era just as well as blowing everything up...
I do agree with your assessment on Shar and the Shadovar though.
Now you sound like a paranoid citizen of Cormyr, LK. :P
-Well, it's not as if it isn't true. It's the common denominator in 99% of these responses.
-Well, it's not as if it isn't true. It's the common denominator in 99% of these responses.
I guess the whole thing is a matter of perception, really, both in-game and out.
Is Shar any more powerful than ever before? I'm inclined to say no, but will gladly be corrected if need be.
Is she more on the minds of people of Faerun (and the gamers of Faerun) since an Empire mandates her exclusive worship? Likely, yes.
So I guess it really is "all about the Shadovar". Regardless of the religious inclinations of individual Shadovar, they are an empire of Sharrans both legally and in the popular consciousness of Faerun. The perception isn't limited to the fantasy world of Faerun, either, it would seem. We're all spending a lot more time discussing Shar than in times past. And, as you say, 99% of the posts directly implicate the Shadovar.
For better or worse, they, and Shar by extension it would seem, have a more looming role in the 4E Realms. I like it, but can understand how others might not.
That's an interesting thought. I can't imagine Shar as the Unaligned Goddess of Empire-building, though.
I am sure you could not believe the Realms could live without Mystra but it happened. The gods do exist (IMO) to serve the mortals living on Toril at the end of the day. Shar thinks she is aqcuiring more power by accumilating more followers but in truth she is just forging a bigger chain for herself and she may have to follow more rules than she did when she was just a goddess of primordial shadow hording secrets and crying on her bed.;)
I can also see Shades eventually chafing under the Theocracy mandates and power. This is where Mask or some other god comes in...
Shar thinks she is aqcuiring more power by accumilating more followers but in truth she is just forging a bigger chain for herself and she may have to follow more rules than she did when she was just a goddess of primordial shadow hording secrets and crying on her bed.
Another good point. I'm curious to see if such a situation plays out in the novels.
I can also see Shades eventually chafing under the Theocracy mandates and power.
Shadowrealm Spoiler
Even Most High Telamont seems more than a little annoyed when Shar's designs interfere with his acquiring Sembia.
Excepting Rivalen, I got the impression that the Tanthuls are dedicated first to Netheril, then to Shar. Even Rivalen is sorely put to the test in terms of where his loyalties lie. He wiggles free of the conundrum in the end, but his time will come.
Excepting Rivalen, I got the impression that the Tanthuls are dedicated first to Netheril, then to Shar. Even Rivalen is sorely put to the test in terms of where his loyalties lie. He wiggles free of the conundrum in the end, but his time will come.
Where is the “big impact” of Shar on the 4E Realms?
HELLO!
She CAUSED 4e!
The entire world is diffeent because of the Spellplague, which she was responsible for. 'Impact' is a bit of an understatement, IMHO.
I can't look at the map without it screaming "Shar!" at me (and not just because its all 'dark and smudgy' looking).
Like I said already, I used to not care one way or the other about Shar - She was there in the background if I needed her for something. Now I would never use her because she's already been used to death.
The entire world is different because of the Spellplague, which she was responsible for.
That was Cyric.
Shar "aided and abetted" Cyric in his efforts, but it's not Shar currently imprisoned for the deed.
We now return you to you regularly scheduled promise to vacate. Chop chop!
I'm really trying to keep to my promise and not post anymore, but I have a few days left yet, and this just slapped me and called me Sally -
-Consider yourself slapped. (Now all I need is a Bevis and Butthead face slap smilie)
-Now what about your sock-puppets. Will you still post under them?
That was Cyric.
Shar "aided and abetted" Cyric in his efforts, but it's not Shar currently imprisoned for the deed.
-Someone mentioned my Master? :D My ears were starting to itch. ;)
18DELTA (Chosen of CYRIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Anyway, I quite like the idea of Shar. But the way she's been used over the years is quite at odds with that idea, even more so in 4th Edition. In my home games, I give Shar the portfolio of Entropy, and keep her in the deep background. So Shar's safe in the knowledge that she will win.. eventually. (And that any actions taken against her only contribute to her eventual success, something that she loves the irony of)
-Now what about your sock-puppets. Will you still post under them?
I'm not you. :P
Both my accounts use the same name.
We now return you to you regularly scheduled promise to vacate. Chop chop!
Whether or not Markus ultimately decides to leave is up to him, and this thread is not the place to discuss his personal decisions, much less be snotty toward him. I hope Markus stays.
That said, let's get back to the Sharry Shar-ness of the new Shar-gotten Realms. Love it or hate it, let's discuss that here, and not discuss other posters.
While Cyric may have wielded the blade, its clear he didn't have anything resembling the intelligence to tie his shoelaces, let alone kill a greater god. So Shar was needed for the actual plan.
Well said. I find it interesting that out of the three most unpopular gods one gets killed off in a - how do I put it gently? - incredibly lame way because she was so powerful, influential and omnipresent and allegedly made good storytelling so difficult, whereas the other two get to cause the cataclysm that brings 4e about in the first place. So it's no more plane-hopping for Cyric, but apart from that he and his church stay the same, and Shar is the most powerful, influential and omnipresent goddess right now, it seems. (And it doesn't matter if someone points out that she's not involved with region X, kingdom Y or people Z - the same could have been said about Mystra. Still, I think the strong focus on Shar can't be denied. Appearances matter.) Never mind that she of all gods should have stayed in the background.
I find the reasoning of the designers for implementing changes (and their decision-making process as to how to do so) really difficult to comprehend. They kill off Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul - no great loss for me (except for Bane maybe), and with Kelemvor we got a god of death whose church is actually interesting, makes sense within the society and is far from being the cliché Myrkul and his religion were -, but they're sorely missed by many, many fans. Eventually WotC gives in and decides to bring Bane back. "Yeah, but how? He's dead." - "Why don't we... I dunno... let him burst forth from Iyachtu Xvim?" - "Uhhh... how? Why?" - "Dunno. 's cool." So we got Bane back, and the Fzoul storyline of 3e really made you think that under his banner the eastern faction of the Zhents would slowly build up an empire of its own, did it not? For some reason, despite WotC's PoL fetish and all, they decided against it. Can't have Shar as the evil deity with Bane running around causing major stirrups. How did that decision-making process go down? "I want Shar." - "Rich, look, we've already put things in motion for Bane, he—" - "I want Shar." - "But we've gone through all the trouble to build up Fzoul and effect a schism within the Zhentarim so we could have the Zhents of old as well as a new organization that threa—" - "I want Shar." - "C'mon, I know you like her, but really, the goddess of secrets as the major evil deity of the Realms? Don't you think that maybe she doesn't really fit?" - "I want Shar." - "Oh, what the heck, do whatever you want, I'm out."
Then there's Cyric. I may know the wrong people, but to me it always seemed he was the most unpopular god right from his inception. Sure, having watched an extremely powerful god when he was still a mortal doesn't make it easier to take him seriously, but the novels really go out of their way to present him in the most ridiculous light possible - which doesn't do his rep with the fans a favor. Still, he's the god of early 3e FR, featured left, right and center. WotC wanted him to be a major bad*beep* to replace the three bad*beep*s that got killed off, they just didn't know how to get the point across and instead settled on portraying him like a bumbling idiot not fit to carry the groceries of the Dead Three.
Eventually he gets replaced by Shar, the mysterious goddess of the night with a rather nice backstory who's always lurked behind the scenes like a black widow in her net since time immemorial. Maybe WotC felt they had overdone it with Cyric and needed a replacement - but Shar? Let alone the fact that the setting never needed an omnipresent evil über-deity that gets much more coverage than the others, but if you absolutely, positively needed an evil god in the limelight, Bane would have lent himself as one, the idea really suggested itself, and as I said, for a time WotC seemed to plan to go with it. Shar in such a prominent position, however... this is like saying Chauntea suddenly declares war on all farmers because she's dating Silvanus and, to impress him, doesn't want to be Mother Earth anymore. It's not consistent with the premise. (Actually, I wouldn't put such an idea past WotC, considering that the way they portray the gods they rather come across as the Three Stooges than divine beings.)
So Mystra gets killed because there's a perception outside the FR community that discourages some people from buying the setting. The designers' darlings however, coincidentally not very popular with the people inside the FR community, get a promotion - although they fit the Mystra bill perfectly, maybe even better than Mystra herself. Gotta love it.
DB
So Mystra gets killed because there's a perception outside the FR community that discourages some people from buying the setting.
Outside the setting only? Not so. Inside, too.
The designers' darlings however, coincidentally not very popular with the people inside the FR community, get a promotion -
I'll grant you Cyric, but surely not Shar. The tiny little subset of the FR Community that bothers to post about the setting online hardly represents the greater community in its entirety.
although they fit the Mystra bill perfectly, maybe even better than Mystra herself. Gotta love it.
How so? I get the basic idea of what you're saying i.e., having a deity or two "at the top" of the heap, but where are the similar negatives for Realms DMs and the wider gaming community that Mystra and her omnipresent Chosen brought to the table?
It seems to me like irony is being manufactured here, as opposed to actually being present.
I'm not you. :P
Both my accounts use the same name.
-:P
-:P
-I would hate to see you leave Markus. Who would argue with LK around here? When you and him argue it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling on the inside. Or it could be gas? :P
-On topic before Therise smites my goofy ***. Shar was the tool folks get it right. ;)
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric, with no axe to grind unlike some people around here!) :embarrass
Outside the setting only? Not so. Inside, too.
It was unfair of me to word it that way, you're right - inside, too. But what I was driving at is that Mr. Baker himself expressly said one of the reasons why Mystra had to go was because of potential FR players.
I'll grant you Cyric, but surely not Shar. The tiny little subset of the FR Community that bothers to post about the setting online hardly represents the greater community in its entirety.
Very true, but we all have to base our extrapolations on something - otherwise we couldn't talk about anything that hasn't been scientifically proven beyond a doubt. It's possible that the share of Shar-detractors on this and other FR-related message boards is much higher than their share in the entire community. I just don't see any reason why that should be so and therefore think it unlikely.
How so? I get the basic idea of what you're saying i.e., having a deity or two "at the top" of the heap, but where are the similar negatives for Realms DMs and the wider gaming community that Mystra and her omnipresent Chosen brought to the table?
We've talked a lot about these subjective negatives in other threads, and it's obvious that one person's negative is the other one's positive and vice versa. You see, I've never cared much for Mystra (let's not go into the question why right now), and I didn't like the prominence of her Chosen. (However, I fault the horrible novels for that, not the setting.) But that doesn't mean that I have to agree with people who claim they were objectively detracting from the fun and / or made good storytelling in the Realms harder. I didn't care for them, but that doesn't mean that no one can make good use of Mystra and her Chosen. To me they've never presented a problem, I could easily live with them without even having to take them out of the setting - just by simply not focusing on them or altering them to fit my needs better.
Same with Shar and Cyric: Some people don't feel bothered by the strong focus on them. No problem. I'm not saying they objectively detract from the fun and / or make good storytelling in the Realms harder. Still I think it's exactly the same with Mystra.
It seems to me like irony is being manufactured here, as opposed to actually being present.
At best, I think that WotC's official reasoning as to why Mystra had to go while Shar and Cyric not only stay but get the star treatment is hypocritical and that their way of hitting you over the head with a mallet to make you see how cool they are - and that because of that it's okay to feature them so prominently - lacks... sensibility. Call it what you will, I can see the irony quite clearly ;)
DB
As to what point of view represents 'the entire community', none of us has the answer to that. Maybe when we read that, it might be better to interpret it as 'the majority of folks I know who've expressed an opinion on the matter' and not get caught up in some semantical garbage, when it was probably said for the sake of brevity, rather than some malicious motive to misrepresent others.
How so? I get the basic idea of what you're saying i.e., having a deity or two "at the top" of the heap, but where are the similar negatives for Realms DMs and the wider gaming community that Mystra and her omnipresent Chosen brought to the table?
I agree. Shar is annoying in an equally as bad way as Mystra and her Chosen were, but it's a different kind of annoying. It's unlikely to derail games, it's more a case of the fact Shar is so omnipresent in everything at the moment it's a matter of writing around her. I can think of numerous reasons why Shar would be involved in ALL three of my campaigns, that's how easily she fits into everything because she's become a little sledgehammer like. Her power and influence means she can work with anything and it's more explaining why Shar isn't involved as opposed to why she wants to get involved.
Shar doesn't have "utter campaign derailment" factor though, so I can easily do something about her in the background (Mask is the absolutely obvious candidate here) and then remove the problem easily. As nobody I am playing with would EVER go looking for Shar or the princes unless they were absolutely suicidal it is just a matter of writing around her. Something that can be easily done because the only person it affects is just how I think about and justify my plots.
Kinda like if the PCs are supposed to be the stars, and the DM and authors are supposed to have freedom to tell the stories they want, why is it that Shar (and to a lesser extent Cyric) are being shoved straight into the spotlight as dominant figures, when having a figure (Mystra) supposedly dominating the setting was the reason for pruning them in the first place? The logic fails me as to why the two cases are any different. Even as far as the Chosen of Mystra are concerned, you get the exact same thing with the Princes of Shade. Where's the difference, beyond alignment?
As to what point of view represents 'the entire community', none of us has the answer to that. Maybe when we read that, it might be better to interpret it as 'the majority of folks I know who've expressed an opinion on the matter' and not get caught up in some semantical garbage, when it was probably said for the sake of brevity, rather than some malicious motive to misrepresent others.
Villains in the spotlight are ok, heros other than the stars of the show not so much. It is like having a Spider-Man comic with a big name villain causing problems for years. That is good times. If in those same amount of years the comic belonging to Spidey also had Wolverine/Hulk ect. showing up every issue or every other issue then that is not so good. BBEG running amok in a RPG games is alot better than a seemingly (thanks to the novels) all powerful goddess of magic and goodness that has to seeminly affect everything in the Realms. This is all just my opinion but I think that is the gist of what the designers think as well. I think. Who knows?
To me PCs who seek out uber-NPCs is not alien but I do not know anyone that would do it and I would not do it. If I knew who they were and what they could do and I knew there was a major threat to city of Waterdeep I would send a message or a sending spell to anyone of importance in the CIty that could help. I would not expect the DM to use them in the game though to aid my group, but I would hope that they would help in little ways to help protect the city or at lest come in as the calvary if our group failed and died in the mission.
Plus you are supposed to hate Cyric and Shar because they are the bad guys. Simple as that.
Plus you are supposed to hate Cyric and Shar because they are the bad guys. Simple as that.
I don't hate Cyric and Shar because they are evil gods. I'd love it if they were just evil deities, but they aren't. I hate Cyric and Shar because they are now essentially overriding NPCs, the final BBEGs behind everything. At least Mystra and her Chosen could be ignored by DMs by simply not using them. In these new Realms, Shar and Cyric have a finger in everything, are involved at top levels in nations and in the underbellies of all dark deals in the shadows - and they're portrayed in canon as characters rather than as gods. Things started downhill with gods as characters in the ToT, and the "fixes" have all ended up being worse than the original problems.
Though to be perfectly honest, one of the reasons I stopped reading comics was that there were those same villains constantly in the spotlight, and it just got boring after a while. Been there, read that, what's next...
Otherwise though, I pretty much agree with Therise's last post.
-I would hate to see you leave Markus. Who would argue with LK around here? When you and him argue it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling on the inside. Or it could be gas? :P
I argue with everyone.. and I also like everyone (here), strangely enough.
If a person doesn't have backbone enough to stand-up for their opinions, then I have no respect for them.
Respect is far more important to me then just liking someone. Sometimes I'll take 'the other side' just to see how hard someone fights. Doesn't mean I care one way or the other, but a lot of very useful lore gets used to prove points, so I consider it a learning experience.
Anyhow, I don't want any 'drama' anymore, so I shouldn't have even posted this. Suffice it to say Miscellany has nothing to do with my leaving (if I still do). I enjoy the back-and-forth with hm as much as anyone. ;)
I'm just... tired...
every site is the same. After awhile, it's same exact people saying the same exact things over and over. I liked it when we could just 'kick back' and talk about the Realms, but that just doesn't seem possible anymore.
Now, before LK swats me with a big "TOPIC!",
I'd like to say this - I Like when things aren't given too much attention. That is one of the things I like about 4e FR (yes, I said it...) - the plan is to NOT go into much detail about stuff so that we can spin things our own way.
Whats that have to do with the topic? Welllll... in 1e/2e FR, Shar was ignored for the most part. She was there, but she didn't get a lot of camera-time. Now she is center stage; this goes against the way I like things. I never used Elminster or the Chosen, because I don't want 'larger-then-life' NPCs and plots to overshadow my players.
That is why I am against the novels, even though I tend to enjoy most of them. The sourcebooks present everything perfectly (IMHO), but when you satrt to read stories about the heavy-hitters in the setting, then you wind up with the problems that escalated in 3e and caused 4e FR to happen.
The way I see it, the process wasn't eliminated, despite promises to the contrary. I think my biggest problem with 4e FR is that instead of fixing the problems, they just tossed them out and replaced them with new ones. It is only a matter of time before people start complaining about 'Super-Shar' and 'Uber-Cyric' and 'monolithic Thay'.
In fact... its started already. Like most modern medications, they have chosen to address the symptoms and not the problem itself. You can sit back and say we are imagining things... but wasn't it the designers who themselves said that the setting needed to be changed because of people's perceptions, however false those perceptions were? Basically, what that means is that it IS a problem if people perceive it as one. Right or wrong, the problem now exists.
My point is that they haven't fixed anything - Shar became the new Mystra, and I think she is even worse. At least you were able count on Elminster and the seven to not be home most of the time, but the Shadovar are always there. I could avoid the old 'problem spots' in FR with ease... but not so any more. How do I tell my players the Empire of Shade "isn't home"?
Back to off-topic:
Like I said... no drama... just my feelings on the matter. I've come to a decision about what I will run... for now... and its not 3e or 4e.
I have always liked MERPs and Rolemaster, but the last time I tried to run it the group I was with didn't care for Middle Earth. This time my players are big fans of Tolkien - probably because of the LotRs movies - and I will most likely run that in the near future.
No 4e FR, no 3.5 Realms, and no 3P Golarion either... just high-fantasy with a system I really like.
In my life, I loved them all --- Mark
Suffice it to say Miscellany has nothing to do with my leaving (if I still do). I enjoy the back-and-forth with hm as much as anyone. ;)
See there, all you conspiracy freaks? It's not always my fault! ;)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Remember, Mark, that neither the Shades nor the many princes of Shade are like Chosen, busily flitting about at Shar's beck and call.
I still think you're spearheading the next great internetz myth (Shar + Cyric = the New Mystra Problem), tho.
Like my sig says (and has for awhile - I just haven't been on this alt lately) - people should play whatever they like, and not listen to a bunch of faceless posters on the Internet.
If it make you happy, go for it.
How do you feel about the HUGE influence of Shar on 4E Realms, given that one of the major complaints (supposedly) about pre-4E was "too much Mystra"?
Have designers taken something they thought was a problem with pre-4E and actually turned it into a real problem with Shar in 4E? Discuss your thoughts on the Sharry Shar-ness of the Shar-gotten Realms here!
I love Shar, even though she don't love me back. She is pure in her darkness; the end of all things, even death. She just IS. IMO, there are two absolute forces in the universe: chaos and the void. Shar represents that which was before Chaos birthed light and other lesser abominations into the peaceful darkness of the void. Shar is antithesis to all things existent in the multiverse, so of course she is hated by them. She is alone in her power and majesty, even with all of her "followers". Even the Netherese do not truly understand her. And I like that flaw in her faith.
The concept of Mystra was good. But the way they had her meddle in anything that wasn't truly bad for magic set me off. I guess I like Boccob's indifference more than Mystra's noseyness. And how many times did Mystra die? Helloooo, sometimes, deities really can't take the hint or learn from their predecessor's lessons. Shar would have left Mystra alone if magic remained neutral instead of taking Selune's (and all that is good) side.
I think the designers made a smart move with Shar's "ascendance". She doesn't just represent evil (as the goodies foolishly perceives) but the end of all things. No afterlife, no heaven/hell/betweener, no nothing. It is a fearsome concept. It's the epic struggle between existence (in w/e its form) and oblivion.
See there, all you conspiracy freaks? It's not always my fault! ;)
Of course it is... except when its LK's fault. Rules of the Omniverse there buddy. ;)
Remember, Mark, that neither the Shades nor the many princes of Shade are like Chosen, busily flitting about at Shar's beck and call.
I still think you're spearheading the next great internetz myth (Shar + Cyric = the New Mystra Problem), tho.
I wouldn't say its Shar + Cyric = New Mystra Problem myself...
I'd characterize it more like Shar = New Mystra Problem, and Cyric = Same Cyric Problem. :P
So yes, we may very well be generating the next great internet 'myth'. But hey, Shar's a problem for my Realms! :D
Villains in the spotlight are ok, heros other than the stars of the show not so much. It is like having a Spider-Man comic with a big name villain causing problems for years. That is good times.
That depends - it can get old quite fast, but I see your point nonetheless.
If in those same amount of years the comic belonging to Spidey also had Wolverine/Hulk ect. showing up every issue or every other issue then that is not so good.
Every (other) issue, right. But what about all those guest appearances and even crossovers comics are known for? What forces you to use Mystra's Chosen every (other) session? In my 19 or 20 years of GMing in the Realms, I've never had a situation in which I felt I had to use them. Not. Once. I had phases in which the strong focus on them (and the way they were used since it was antithetical to how I felt they should be used) annoyed me so much I simply ignored them; I had phases in which I couldn't even look at the name Elminster or Storm because of the abysmal novels it was my grave misfortune to stumble upon; and I had phases in which I really loved working with the premise and turning the Chosen into interesting and believable characters the players were actually dying to meet. I just can't remember for the life of me where it says that the novels' focus has to be the setting's focus, and that if you're not using Mystra's Chosen all the time, you're not a true FR player.
BBEG running amok in a RPG games is alot better than a seemingly (thanks to the novels) all powerful goddess of magic and goodness that has to seeminly affect everything in the Realms.
Here I have to agree with you.
To me PCs who seek out uber-NPCs is not alien but I do not know anyone that would do it and I would not do it. If I knew who they were and what they could do and I knew there was a major threat to city of Waterdeep I would send a message or a sending spell to anyone of importance in the CIty that could help. I would not expect the DM to use them in the game though to aid my group, but I would hope that they would help in little ways to help protect the city or at lest come in as the calvary if our group failed and died in the mission.
That's more or less the way Ed intended his high-level characters to be used.
Plus you are supposed to hate Cyric and Shar because they are the bad guys. Simple as that.
Well, you can cast Adam Sandler as the big bad guy in every movie from now on, and you can be absolutely sure I'll hate him passionately. That doesn't mean that the characters he portrays are interesting, well-written or well-acted. In fact, chances are they're neither.
DB
It's only fair it dooms 4e as well.
Just kidding... I find myself caring less and less about FR these days.
Couldn't sleep last night, so I drew up a map of a Homebrew World, which I may decide to render in PS. I was thinking about Middle Earth, which has the same basic problem that FR had - everyone knows it well.
So now I'm thinking MERPs rules with a world not-quite Tolkien. Perhaps a world where the 'Dark Lord' won, for a time, and is now just recovering...
Sort of like Tolkien meets Eberron. :P
So now I'm thinking MERPs rules with a world not-quite Tolkien. perhaps a world where the 'Dark Lord' won, for a time, and is now just recovering...
If that's what you're looking for, I'd strongly recommend Midnight, a truly wonderful setting - and even a rather original one, if you can get past its groundwork which is more than just a little bit inspired by Tolkien.
DB
In fact, I'll be borrowing from everywhere.
I had to search like hell to find my old thread (which had been moth-balled already) about a homebrew I was thinking about... I think I'll use that as my basis.
I'm going to try my hand at a completely non-FR style map... wish me luck. Thus far I've just been copying the style of others; this should be a real test for me.
I'm going to try my hand at a completely non-FR style map... wish me luck. Thus far I've just been copying the style of others; this should be a real test for me.
-Don't use MS Paint. My maps just don't look "up to par", sadly.
It has a steeper learning curve then most, and doesn't offer pre-made mapping tools, but the possibilites are endless using that.
I'd recommend that site for folks just looking for great maps - I'm a hack compared to most of those guys.
Anyway, I've been studying the tutorials there and trying some new things, and I think I'll be making some changes in the near future. My maps will still use the color palette of the FR ones, but I think I'm going to be 'fancying-up' the mountains, and perhaps the woods.
This way they'll still look like they belong in FR, without me having to copy someone else's work.
Hopefully it won't turn out to be an eyesore.
Edit: My apologies to the OP and the Mods for the off-topic chatter. :embarrass
I've always felt that Shar was underpowered. She was one of the original deities, (IMO) her and Selune should have a much larger influence in all the realms. It always seemed strange to see them as non-greater gods in the various setting material
-Selûne truly got the raw end of the deal. When was the last time you heard something mention her? She's Shar's sister, her proverbial twin, her equal, her archenemy...
-Selûne truly got the raw end of the deal. When was the last time you heard something mention her? She's Shar's sister, her proverbial twin, her equal, her archenemy...
Yep. In the FRCG (3e Realms) Selune is listed as an "Intermediate Goddess", while Shar is a "Greater Goddess". Seems strange. One would think Selune would be of comparable power in the beginning, and have more worshipers in general. The number of worshipers each has is open to debate, of course, especially in view of the secretive nature of most Sharrans. Still, it never seemed "right".
I see no sign of Selune stepping up her game, either, in the post-Spellplague Realms.
-There is the whole "Her DR waxes and wanes with the moon cycles", which explains her periodic increase and decrease in relative power, but I was really talking more about her presence in the setting being minimalized to near complete obscurity, in terms of Forgotten Realms products.
It always seemed to me that she should've been one of the major forces for Good in the FR, given her benevolence and role in its creation. Of course, it's never really been that way, as you allude.
How do you feel about the HUGE influence of Shar on 4E Realms, given that one of the major complaints (supposedly) about pre-4E was "too much Mystra"?
It sucks, I hate it.
I like that Shar was more involved, however it is silly that the other side of the coin wasn't as emphasized.
Cyric was the weapon, Shar's hand weilded it. Doesn't make him any less of a tool though...
Cyric is a tool in more ways than one.
I suppose I can see your point there, but I've still no idea why any player would go seeking out iconic NPCs in the first place... its just an alien concept to me, and apparently to the group I DM for.
It's an alien concept to me, too. If it's a problem for other people, it's THEIR problem, not mine, and I don't have to care about it.
The concept of Mystra was good. But the way they had her meddle in anything that wasn't truly bad for magic set me off. I guess I like Boccob's indifference more than Mystra's noseyness.
Most gods in the Realms "meddle", to some extent, in the affairs of mortals.
Shar would have left Mystra alone if magic remained neutral instead of taking Selune's (and all that is good) side.
Magic was neutral.
Was Shar ever less than a greater power? Don't recall it if she was.
I'm pretty sure she's always been a greater power.
It always seemed to me that she should've been one of the major forces for Good in the FR, given her benevolence and role in its creation. Of course, it's never really been that way, as you allude.
Also, I didn't like how Selune was more or less replaced by Mystra as Shar's archnemesis.
Mystra wasn't a problem. Mystra and her chosen had the appearance of a problem. But as we now know, appearances are everything with the Realms. ;)
Agreed, and I'll continue by quoting Mr. Greenwood (25 dec. 2005 reply);
This is one of the unfortunate distortions caused by Realms fiction (the result of TSR and later WotC editors wanting me to write Elminster, Elminster, and more Elminster): many observers of the Realms tend to think Elminster and the Seven have something of the widely-accepted social status in the Realms of rock stars or Hollywood celebs, known and constantly talked about by all. The truth is, for the majority of arcane spellcasters, they're names out of legend or tall tavern tales, who may or may not really have done this or that. Most wizards in the Realms certainly don't live their lives ever expecting to meet Elminster. And, yes, El had been keeping a low public profile for some years prior to the story, living and working (on behind-the-scenes stuff, not coercing rulers and having public confrontations with VIPs) in various disguises or personas while in Faerûn and travelling often to other planes and continents.
To get back on topic, Shar's seeming omnipresence in 4E realms is one of many reasons I'm homebrewing my 4E realms.
For starters My 4e map doesn't have the Netheril region.
It does, however, have a region called Netheril's Folly... :evillaugh
Cyric is a tool in more ways than one.
That word was chosen quite specifically... ;)
Nicely played, BTW. ;)
A double entendre'... your a man after my own heart.
When I'm gone, you'll have to carry on the cause of acerbic wit without me.
That word was chosen quite specifically... ;)
Heehee.
By the way, later I hope I remember to file away that great quote from Ed Greenwood (kindly posted above) for future use...
To get back on topic, Shar's seeming omnipresence in 4E realms is one of many reasons I'm homebrewing my 4E realms.
For starters My 4e map doesn't have the Netheril region.
It does, however, have a region called Netheril's Folly... :evillaugh
I'm actually happy that the Shadovar have returned. I think it would have been nice if they still collectively venerated various deities in the pantheon. The leadership could still be Sharran. Then they wouldn't be the overt threat being a nation of Sharrans makes them, though.
Honestly, in a case like this, an insidious threat is sometimes more compelling than the obvious one. If the Shadovar weren't so universally feared, even by the common man, then wouldn't that make the Sharran leadership's goals of infiltration and subversion all the easier? Wouldn't that be very "Sharran" of Shar to rely on subterfuge and misdirection?
I guess her ego must have gotten in the way this time. She couldn't have even the peons worshipping any other deity.
Or, perhaps more truly, the "powers that be" thought that approach to subtle. :shrugs:Which I find amusing no end, for a variety of reasons... too much "showing the monster" I think, at least from my point of view.
Yep. One would think the Goddess of "Darkness", "Secrets", "Dark Secrets", and "Super Secret Secrets" would be able to think this one through a little better...
This is the one point I considered changing for our games at home. It would amount to such a deviation for the setting as written, though, that I've elected to give it a chance as written, for now.
This is the one point I considered changing for our games at home. It would amount to such a deviation for the setting as written, though, that I've elected to give it a chance as written, for now.
I don't think it's a big deal if you deviate from the setting as written. It is after all just a game, and the point is to have fun, not follow the official setting slavishly.
I suspect that was in the "more effort than its worth" line of reasoning, rather than the adhering to canon line of reasoning.
True, that might have been the case.
First, more broadly, I like the distinction made between having too many uber NPCs vs. having too many uber villains. The former crowds the PCs while the latter crowds the DM....arguably, of course.
On Shar, I too have been a bit perturbed that she seems so open now. It seems she's going to make her big gambit and then be smacked down and then we'll have no Shar anymore at all. There'll be nothing left!
(Or wait--is that what she wants??) I don't hate it or anything and I haven't given up hope in the designers, but so far I think I like her more in the older lore......more mysterious and creepy and stuff.Coming from this point of view, however, there are still two positive spins on the current situation that seem apparent to me:
1) All of the empire building and world domination is a cover for something far more insidious she's up to, or
2) Widespread paranoia that she is behind everything IS the new Shar. Very tricky, but it could end up working.
Its all a matter of perception, and false perceptions doomed 3e.
It's only fair it dooms 4e as well.
Actually seems that happening already to some extent. I think it's just a natural progression from poor precedent and nothing done to fix that.
Just kidding... I find myself caring less and less about FR these days.
Couldn't sleep last night, so I drew up a map of a Homebrew World, which I may decide to render in PS. I was thinking about Middle Earth, which has the same basic problem that FR had - everyone knows it well.
So now I'm thinking MERPs rules with a world not-quite Tolkien. Perhaps a world where the 'Dark Lord' won, for a time, and is now just recovering...
Sort of like Tolkien meets Eberron. :P
I've felt the same and starting making up a new setting. I have outlines and a rough map. Thanks for the cartography site link btw, looks handy.
I find it more fun to create something new rather than picking up broken pieces of a setting that may take the same effort (or even more) to get together again the way you like. What is worst is that after this big boom, the next one is always right around the corner with how WotC seems to set up these product lines.
The Shar-hate, or Cyric-hate, or Abeir-hate, or the unceasingly popular Drizzt-hate, or my personal favorite residual postmortem Mystra-hate (a morbid, transcendental, necro(philic/phobic), dead horse beating sort of hate) will eventually force a drastic cacophonous cataclysm some where down the road.
As to Shar being too open now, well you know when you are looking at the big bad world threatening evil center of apocalyptic doom, you probably are not paying too much attention to anything else.
As to Shar being too open now, well you know when you are looking at the big bad world threatening evil center of apocalyptic doom, you probably are not paying too much attention to anything else.
Well, some people object to that portrayal of the deity Shar, or the idea that Faerun should even have a "big bad world threatening evil center of apocalyptic doom" in the first place.
True, that might have been the case.
Sorry for the belated input. I've been otherwise occupied for several days.
This was kind of what I meant, but might be better stated: "More trouble than it's worth since I'm not yet sure that I don't like the current core as is." I'm not sure that Netheril's lack of religious choices is a huge deal at this point. Maybe later it will be; but, at the moment, I don't care enough to make a houseruling that will affect our entire group.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks
As to Shar being too open now, well you know when you are looking at the big bad world threatening evil center of apocalyptic doom, you probably are not paying too much attention to anything else.
My problem is she's neither interesting as a "world threatening evil center of apocalyptic doom" and she only got there because everyone else was involved in a gigantic idiot plot. There is also a lot known about her (as an antagonist) and this goes completely against what kind of villain that Shar is supposed to be.
Lets see I don't hate Shar. I don't hate Mystra. I don't hate their minions. I do hate the way they are all depicted in the novels.
QFT.
Its not the game, or the rules, or the setting....
Its in the craptastic presenation.
Sorry for the belated input. I've been otherwise occupied for several days.
This was kind of what I meant, but might be better stated: "More trouble than it's worth since I'm not yet sure that I don't like the current core as is." I'm not sure that Netheril's lack of religious choices is a huge deal at this point. Maybe later it will be; but, at the moment, I don't care enough to make a houseruling that will affect our entire group.
Understood--as always it's your game, and it's up to you to play/run it as you see fit.