-The Sharn seem to predate the Dark Disaster, however. We don't know exactly when the Sharn came into being, how they came into being, or many other societies that they have collected into their communal mind. They date back to as early as the Sarrukh, if I am not mistaken.
Never really developed the idea much though, was mainly meant as a way to drop obscure hints here and there, and in the case some players wanted to muck around with chronomancy.
-The Sharn, or Fhaorn'Quessir (Transformed People) are a collective sentience formed by individuals from civilizations that were on the brink of total annihilation. The Sharn collective contains a shared sentience that has, over the years, collected a great deal of arcane knowledge, from various societies that no longer exist. Miyeritar is one example. During the Dark Disaster, by whatever means, certain Dark Elves were able to come into contact with the Sharn collective mind, and become part of the Sharn collective mind, thus turning into Sharn themselves, and imparting the knowledge of Miyeritar into the Sharn collective mind.
-The Sharn seem to predate the Dark Disaster, however. We don't know exactly when the Sharn came into being, how they came into being, or many other societies that they have collected into their communal mind. They date back to as early as the Sarrukh, if I am not mistaken.
Yes...I remember reading somewhere that the Phaerimm were created by the Imaskar...but even so I know I have read that the Phaerimm have battled the Sarrukh Empire.
The Sarrukh Empire predates the Imaskar so...
Anyhow that was a 4e take on Sharn, so it appears that in 4e they formed around -10,500.
There is a problem I can see, though...
The whole Sharn vs Phaerimm conflict...
I think if Phaerimm and Sharn coexisted during the whole Sarrukh thing...there would be a second Sharnwall somewhere...
Then again I do not believe that the Phaerimm were employing the same disastrous magics that they did versus the Sarrukh (who kinda killed themselves)...as they did versus Netheril.
It seems that in 4e...instead of them being primordial beings...that they are trying to treat them as a sort of first spellscarred...
Makes about as much sense as Kir-lanans serving a Goddess....
Anyhow that was a 4e take on Sharn, so it appears that in 4e they formed around -10,500.
-If the FRCG/FRPG says that the Sharn were created in -10,500 DR (honestly, I don't remember reading that part, but I've only skimmed through both books), ignore it. The Sharn had to have predated that date, in order for the Miyeritari to join into the already existing Sharn collective.
There is a problem I can see, though...
The whole Sharn vs Phaerimm conflict...
I think if Phaerimm and Sharn coexisted during the whole Sarrukh thing...there would be a second Sharnwall somewhere...
Then again I do not believe that the Phaerimm were employing the same disastrous magics that they did versus the Sarrukh (who kinda killed themselves)...as they did versus Netheril.
-The Phaerimm, when they've surfaced are destroyers. Sharn, when they've surfaced, are collectors. The two have a fundamental difference and conflict right there, all other things aside.
Makes about as much sense as Kir-lanans serving a Goddess....
-Pfft, Kir-Lanan serving Shar...Ha, ha, ha...Wait...
I know it says it somewhere but I am having trouble locating it...
Imaskar went down before Netheril went down...and to me if the Phaerimm were around before Imaskar there would have been a conflict for much the same reasons as the phaerimms conflicted with Netheril.
It does not make sense that you have the phaerimm and the sharn coexisting for a long period of time without other Sharn Walls around.
-If the FRCG/FRPG says that the Sharn were created in -10,500 DR (honestly, I don't remember reading that part, but I've only skimmed through both books), ignore it. The Sharn had to have predated that date, in order for the Miyeritari to join into the already existing Sharn collective.
-10,500 works because that is when the backlash happened and supposedly it was the Miyeritari that trapped the backlash on a demi-plane (and were trapped and consumed as well)...and this would be the point where the sharn collective started to form as the magical energy of the backlash consumed the Miyeritari.
The only problem I have, though, was that I could have sworn that sharn were primordial and greatly predated that event.
In the meantime, I highly suggest checking out the novel Blackstaff by Steven E. Schend for more details.
And here's some further focus on the Sharn from Sage Schend himself:-
"Sheesh. A week to come back and answer this. I'm ashamed. My bad.
Well, I'll confess that I'd never really made a study of the Sharn Wall, but here's my take on it and why elves couldn't repair it.
The Sharn, at least as I've always posited them since the summer of 1991, are a uniquely amalgamated race with unique mindsets due to the collective consciousness of it all.
Given that WotC never officially set the sharn up as X+Y+Z creatures and instead left it wide open, that allowed me the freedom to set up BLACKSTAFF and its climax the way I did. Thus, my take should not be seen as excluding any other interpretations, just adding details as I see `em.
The simplest answer--it's not JUST Elven High Magic. It's MORE than that, though elven High Magic formed the skeleton on which it's built.
The long answer--Remember that the sharn are a combined 3 GRAND Mages, perhaps an additional elven High Mage here and there, plus a whole lot of elves (of all stripes, including sea elves, IMO), AND a whole lot of other races, each of them bringing their own magics and potentials with them. Once merged, the collective understanding of magic within the sharn increased and they were able to do things they'd normally never be able to do....like create a construct like the Sharn Wall. So, if elves were ever willing to share the knowledge of High Magic with gnomes and dwarves and centaurs, they might learn that there are other thoughts and other processes that other cultures know about that could work with their High Magic. But since many elves with High Magic see themselves as above all that and/or unwilling to share tel'quessir secrets, they don't get to learn about other races' secrets and magics.
Stray ideas--The above isn't to suggest that every race has its own version of High Magic. It's more that the Sharn Wall is the culmination of special tricks and a unique mixture of ideas and spells woven together by High Magic. With their new and unique perspectives, sharn could take dwarven rune magics and carve them inside the Sharn wall in three dimensions, creating entirely new runes never seen carved into rock before. Sharn could also take advantage of gnomish understandings of illusions and build very special, very sturdy illusions that served also to bulwark the Sharn Wall (and to delineate what they were would ruin the illusion, ja?).
Get the idea now? That's the true power of the Sharn, and some of that power got pulled into use in restoring Rhymanthiin. All Khelben and his assembly of wizards et al restored a 50 mile radius plot of the High Moor to health and they helped restore the original bodies/races/minds of many within the Sharn. It was the Sharn itself/themselves (using those same wizards et al as magical support and mental support ala supporters of High Magic) who created the city of Rhymanthiin with their unique magics.
Steven"
Where was it that the Imaskar created the Phaerimm. I know there is contradictory evidence...
-I vaguely recall something like that, though, it's hazy to me as well.
-I vaguely recall something like that, though, it's hazy to me as well.
I have poured through so many pages looking. When I read it it made logical sense. Something about the whole Imaskar creating phaerimms seemed in line, especially considering their other creations.
I could have sworn that it was something in lines that the phaerimm were created as servants and when they started to turn upon the Imaskari they were already in bad standings due to divinity.
The fundamental problem I have with phaerimm and sharn coexisting on the world for such a long period of time is that, like you said their fundamental natures oppose. If it is the case they would have came into conflict well before the fall of Netheril.
-The Sharn seem to predate the Dark Disaster, however. We don't know exactly when the Sharn came into being, how they came into being, or many other societies that they have collected into their communal mind. They date back to as early as the Sarrukh, if I am not mistaken.
The sharn do not date back to the Days of Thunder.
The sharn as we know them today—oily black skin, three heads, bizarre tri-hand arms and all that—did not exist until the Dark Disaster. They are the direct result of the Killing Storms which destroyed Miyeritar.
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The sharn as we know them today—oily black skin, three heads, bizarre tri-hand arms and all that—did not exist until the Dark Disaster. They are the direct result of the Killing Storms which destroyed Miyeritar.
Which was in the first post.
The Miyeritaari didn't join a pre-existing sharn collective. I assure you that the Sharn collective—Ed hates the term “collective” by the way—didn’t exist until it was created during the Dark Disaster.
-I vaguely recall something like that, though, it's hazy to me as well.
It's referenced in the entry for the Deep Imaskari on pg. 9 of Underdark.
I will note however that there is evidence to suggest that at least 3 populations have undergone the transformation into phaerimms at various points in Faerûn's history.
I will note however that there is evidence to suggest that at least 3 populations have undergone the transformation into phaerimms at various points in Faerûn's history.
-Which three? Where could I look to find this info.
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I'm not sure exactly what you're saying LK. Are you quoting some source I'm unfamiliar with?
The Miyeritaari didn't join a pre-existing sharn collective. I assure you that the Sharn collective—Ed hates the term “collective” by the way—didn’t exist until it was created during the Dark Disaster.
-Let's look at this logically:
-The Dark Disaster had to have been a sudden happening. It was cast via an Elven High Magic Ritual, so the actual casting of it, in all likelihood, took some time. The actual Killing Storm descending upon Miyeritar, however, did not seem to take much time in devastating the nation. It hung for months over what is now the High Moor, but that does not mean that the spell took long to kill. No texts anywhere talk about refugees fleeing from Miyetitar to the Vyshaanti Empire, or Ilythiir, or Shantel Othrier, or anywhere else, so we shouldn't assume that there were. It seems that the Killing Storm sprung up instantaneously over all of Miyeritar, and began killing with extreme efficiency.
-Now, the fact that the Vyshaanti were the ones that cast the spell is something that we, as readers know, but historians don't likely know. After all, the Ilythiiri were blamed (wrongfully, of course), and "took the hit" because of it. Had people known that the Vyshaanti were brewing The Killing Storm, something would have been done.When the Vyshaanti saw the power of Elven High Magic applied to the Drow during the Descent, they began operations to make sure that the same could not be done to them. So, this demonstrates that, at the time, when one nation discovered that another was, or possible could unleash a massive cataclysm on their land, or on their people, the political climate was such that the nation was not paralyzed in protecting/defending itself or it's people, and did what it's rulers deemed necessary. But, nothing was done, and blame was shifted away from the Vyshaanti. This demonstrates that, at the time, the casting of the Killing Storm was something that came as a surprise.
-Keeping in mind that the Killing Storm engulfing Miyeritar was a surprise, how do you explain a group of Selu'Taar, as well as various others, such as the Gnomes, and the Centaurs, and anyone else that might have been involved in joining the Sharn collective, were aware of this? Certainly, if they were, logic dictates that they'd (A) Inform others of the Vyshaanti's insidious plot, that Ilythiir got blamed for, and/or (B) Do something to stop it. Transforming themselves into the Sharn did neither.
-Now, let's take a look at this actual moment. The ritual that was originally cast, to turn the "selected Miyeritaari" into Sharn, had to have taken time. Looking at the chart on pg. 128 of Cormanthyr: Empire of Magic, the most basic Elven High Magic spells need a tenday to prepare, meditate, attune, and cast. Now, presuming that the spell did take a tenday to prepare, meditate, attune, and cast, it defies logic that the Miyeritaari who became Sharn completed their casting right before, or during the Killing Storm. The odds of that are the same as getting a black eye as a result of a stampede of wild elephants- and one baby zebra- running through your house between 3:55 and 4 PM on the Fourth of July, during a hailstorm.
-Alternatively, pre-existing Sharn came to Miyeritar. This makes a great deal of sense more. We have been told that the Sharn are "preservers", that they collect the knowledge- and literal citizens- of magical civilizations that are on the brink, or already gone. Miyeritar, at the time of the Killing Storm, was just this- a civilization on the brink of utter removal. That Sharn could appear out of nowhere, we already have precidence for- their "appearing out of nowhere" in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy. Now, keeping this in mind, Sharn appear in Miyeritar, and take with them residents who are later added into the Sharn collective.
-Their problematic appearance is already explained by the fact that they have a knack for doing so, and that they are preservers, who seek to preserve the type of knowledge that numerous citizens in Miyeritar had. The problems associated with select magicians creating the Sharn Collective just as the Killing Storm was destroying them, on the other hand, remains problematic.
-At this point, my fingers are cold and cramped.
-Alternatively, pre-existing Sharn came to Miyeritar. This makes a great deal of sense more. We have been told that the Sharn are "preservers", that they collect the knowledge- and literal citizens- of magical civilizations that are on the brink, or already gone. Miyeritar, at the time of the Killing Storm, was just this- a civilization on the brink of utter removal. That Sharn could appear out of nowhere, we already have precidence for- their "appearing out of nowhere" in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy. Now, keeping this in mind, Sharn appear in Miyeritar, and take with them residents who are later added into the Sharn collective.
I like that Alternative the best...
To me, though, I still have a big problem with sharn and phaerimm being around for a stretch of time...
Even though the Imaskari creating the phaerimm has conflicts. In the grand scheme of things if they were created by the Imaskari...and then the Imaskari where destroyed...it would explain them showing up in Netheril.
I think it would also help in explaining why the phaerimm and sharn have not butted heads in the past...
Well we're getting into the nitty gritty now, which my NDA forbids me to discuss. You'll have to wait until early next year to read my interpretation (reviewed by Ed and Steven mind you) of those events. But fair warning, if you're expecting the sharn to exist prior to the Dark Disaster you're going to be disappointed.
-Regardless, I've demonstrated why it's, at the least, extremely illogical for them to have been "born" at this period of time. It's not like so much information isn't illogical, though...
It's likely that I won't see said information anyway, however.To me, though, I still have a big problem with sharn and phaerimm being around for a stretch of time...
-They don't necessarily have to come into conflict. France and England were often "arch enemies", and the two coexisted without going to war with each other for plenty of time.
It's not like so much information isn't illogical, though..
...like illithids being their own grandpa?
...like illithids being their own grandpa?
-When taken in context of the convoluted mess that time travel creates, it makes sense.
-I, personally, don't like that origin for Illithid. I like the plain 'ol mundane "they evolved from something" explanation.
Well we're getting into the nitty gritty now, which my NDA forbids me to discuss. You'll have to wait until early next year to read my interpretation (reviewed by Ed and Steven mind you) of those events. But fair warning, if you're expecting the sharn to exist prior to the Dark Disaster you're going to be disappointed.
-
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Or phaerimm were exterminated from the Sarrukh times until some Imaskari/Theravelian rediscovered the process of transformation or fell to the curse
I like Karsus' idea about the sharn appearing in different civilizations, not just originating in Miyeritar. Maybe it was a contingent high magic ritual that triggers during such dooomsday events. So before Miyeritar there were sharns but they were different, each civilization whose knowledge sharn find worthy of preserving adds something of it's own, new and unique, to the ''collective'' thus transforming it into something else. Maybe they appeared during the aberration era.
I like the origin of illithids, it doesn't mean they'll be illithids again at the end of time, had a similar theory about humans.
I like the origin of illithids, it doesn't mean they'll be illithids again at the end of time, had a similar theory about humans.
Duergar
Derro
Githyanki
Githzerai
They travel back in time and still flub up. As far as my Underdark aberrant go...I always preferred aboleths...
unless...somehow...that is what the aboleths evolve into...
unless...somehow...that is what the aboleths evolve into...
-That is what I was thinking, actually, when I mentioned Illithid and evolution. I think, though, that it'd be backwards, though, because of Neothelids. Neothelid are the "purest" form of Illithid, in that they are simply the little tadpole guys allowed to grow to full size without anything else. Neothelids are pretty backwards, savage, feral creatures. Aboleth, on the other hand, are not. It's more likely, given this evidence, that Illithid- or, whatever we can call the species as a whole..."Thelids"?- evolved into Aboleth, and not the other way around.
-And, hey, go figure. Look who wrote the Illithiad? Good ol' Bruce Cordell. :coolcthul
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-That is what I was thinking, actually, when I mentioned Illithid and evolution. I think, though, that it'd be backwards, though, because of Neothelids. Neothelid are the "purest" form of Illithid, in that they are simply the little tadpole guys allowed to grow to full size without anything else. Neothelids are pretty backwards, savage, feral creatures. Aboleth, on the other hand, are not. It's more likely, given this evidence, that Illithid- or, whatever we can call the species as a whole..."Thelids"?- evolved into Aboleth, and not the other way around.
-And, hey, go figure. Look who wrote the Illithiad? Good ol' Bruce Cordell.
I think I do agree...moving from having an elder brain storing all knowledge to transmitting all knowledge to offspring seems like the evolutionary leap...
I was always under the impression, though, that illithids were just fupups and couldn't get much right...
Meanwhile...Aboleths somehow fear them...yet Aboleths bring down cities without ever being seen...
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