...you can try and ask the author himself about where he got his source material for the novel....
-That is a good answer.
Actually I believe mention of Shandaular goes all the way back to the FR gray box, however it has almost always carried the same description, namely the portal,the other Shandaular (in the Shaar), and its role as the last city of Ashanath to fall before the total rule of a unified Narfell. Beyond that (and the wraiths that fill the streets) it's been mostly a mystery until now.
The other sources that come to mind are the FR Campaign Setting, Unapproachable East (listed as the City of Weeping Ghosts), and Lost Empires of Faerun, though I believe the latter speaks mostly of the southern Shandaular, known to the Shaaryan tribes as the Council Hills (ah yes, also in Shining South).
Add in my story (with some much appreciated, unpublished lore and advice from Eric Boyd and George Krashos) and that's about all the published lore that I'm aware of.
The Ilythiiri angle came from my suggestions to James to tie his novel into some of the new dates and events that were slated to appear in GHotR (specifically the Ilythiiri presence in Narathmault a.k.a. Dun Tharos).
More information on Shandaular was obtained from the complete and unedited write-up of the "Sunphelm of Shandaular" by Eric Boyd which appeared in a very barebones fashion in the "Shining South" sourcebook (p.59).
When this book hits my shores, I'm keen to see just what James came up with.
-- George Krashos
After that, I wound-up creating some homebrew lore, because I don't like coincidences - there were two seprate groups of Illuskans that 'accidently' went through portals in the Lake Ashane region, and I decided that the two portals were actually one and the same (part of a 3-way system), and that the Nentyarch sealed up the one the first group came through, and the second group went looking for the first YEARS later and wound up coming out in the southern portal because the northern one had been sealed (so the magic shunted them to the next one in line).
This assumes that a) the Sarrukh created all three (I'm including the mysterious 'unspecified' portal somwhere in the Illuskan regions), and b) that the southern one once connected back to the north eastern (Illusk) one, but is now malfunctioning (DM can determine if it works or not, and it could very well wind-up dumping characters into the frigid Northern Ocean around the Sea of Floating Ice).
So no more coincidence of two seperate but VERY similar events. ;)
P.S. - you may want to read the Shaundakal entry in F&A, since the city was named for him, but I don't really see anything in their about it (odd, that). Still... it proved to be a rather interesting entry regardless.
When this book hits my shores, I'm keen to see just what James came up with.
You may want to check your local bookstore Krash. I've had my copy for some weeks now.
The Ilythiiri angle came from my suggestions to James to tie his novel into some of the new dates and events that were slated to appear in GHotR (specifically the Ilythiiri presence in Narathmault a.k.a. Dun Tharos).
-Yeah, this was the part that intrigued me (though, as I said, I initially picked up the book for Rasheman). Being that you were the one who suggested it, can you provide any new information about the Ilythiiri presence there?
thought Shaundaular was too young to be dealing with Ilythiiri
-Have you read the book?
you know the one with Bruenor in full flight from the keep when he was young..... er younger....
btw there is no such book, but none the less it would have been a great read.
I did read weeping ghosts though and enjoyed it.
-Yeah, this was the part that intrigued me (though, as I said, I initially picked up the book for Rasheman). Being that you were the one who suggested it, can you provide any new information about the Ilythiiri presence there?
Well, I haven't read the book so I'm not sure where James went with the Ilythiiri angle that I dreamt up a while ago. But I can tell you why I came up with the angle in the first place.
In drawing together the disparate lore on the Rashemi, Narfelli and Raumathari for a timeline on the eastern parts of the Realms (which currently sits unfinished on my HD) I realised that the Narfelli that fought in the Orcgate War didn't come across as the bloodthirsty, demon-worshipping, debased humans that later lore portrayed them as. As such, I surmised that this change in their society had to have occurred after that conflict.
In trying to come up with a reason for why these humans would have been corrupted so in such a short time I reasoned that Dun Tharos was a place of great evil and that when they stumbled across it, that was the catalyst for their path to demon-worship.
I had already placed the elves of Lethyr in the woodlands because I needed their High Magic to stop the spread of the Great Glacier southward and ameliorate the climatic effects of this natural phenomenon (having paid attention to fan comments over the years that no lands/creatures etc should be able to live so close to it) and then extrapolated that they too had stumbled upon Dun Tharos and decided (in typically paternalistic fashion) to exclude "lesser" races (i.e. humans) from contact with the place for fear of what it would do to them. As such, they acted as the guardians of Dun Tharos preventing access to the place to other races.
Of course, the next question that confronted me was why the elves of Lethyr would act in such an altruistic fashion and stay there to take on this role rather than just moving on to other less dangerous woodlands. The answer was the elves of Ilythiir. I reasoned that the dark elves came to the region and built a bolthole of sorts (Narathmault) far away from their normal lands and enemies. They were responsible for the presence and prevalence of demons in the place. Previous lore had established that a portal lay between the region of Ashanath and the Council Hills. The Council Hills were close to the ancestral lands of the Ilythiiri and so I reasoned that this is how they got there. Whilst not stated anywhere, I held (and still hold) the belief that the portal was created by the sarrukh of Okoth - specifically members of the Ba'etith - but I won't go off on that tangent here.
I then surmised that when the Decent of the Drow came to pass, the dark elves were transformed into drow which shattered their magical bindings over a host of demons who ran amok (as demons do) and this coupled with their "change" saw Narathmault evacuated with the surviving dark elves (now drow) heading east and south and forming the current-day Undrek-Thoz. This was also a handy explanation for such a large drow enclave in a relatively remote area away from the normal thrust of the drow diaspora after the fall of Telantiwar.
The elves of Lethyr took on the role they did to make amends for the sins of their dark elf cousins, given that Lethyr was colonised in the aftermath of the Crown Wars with all of the emotional baggage that that conflict generated in the elves.
So in fairly convoluted fashion is an explanation as to the realmslore gyrations I had to go through to set up the premise of an Ilythiiri presence in the region. It was the combination of more than a few pieces of disparate existing realmslore moulded by my own views on the history of the eastern lands of the Realms. However, as with all such creative extrapolations, it may not work for you. If not, feel free to ignore it.
-- George Krashos
Well, I haven't read the book so I'm not sure where James went with the Ilythiiri angle that I dreamt up a while ago. But I can tell you why I came up with the angle in the first place.
In drawing together the disparate lore on the Rashemi, Narfelli and Raumathari for a timeline on the eastern parts of the Realms (which currently sits unfinished on my HD) I realised that the Narfelli that fought in the Orcgate War didn't come across as the bloodthirsty, demon-worshipping, debased humans that later lore portrayed them as. As such, I surmised that this change in their society had to have occurred after that conflict.
In trying to come up with a reason for why these humans would have been corrupted so in such a short time I reasoned that Dun Tharos was a place of great evil and that when they stumbled across it, that was the catalyst for their path to demon-worship.
I had already placed the elves of Lethyr in the woodlands because I needed their High Magic to stop the spread of the Great Glacier southward and ameliorate the climatic effects of this natural phenomenon (having paid attention to fan comments over the years that no lands/creatures etc should be able to live so close to it) and then extrapolated that they too had stumbled upon Dun Tharos and decided (in typically paternalistic fashion) to exclude "lesser" races (i.e. humans) from contact with the place for fear of what it would do to them. As such, they acted as the guardians of Dun Tharos preventing access to the place to other races.
Of course, the next question that confronted me was why the elves of Lethyr would act in such an altruistic fashion and stay there to take on this role rather than just moving on to other less dangerous woodlands. The answer was the elves of Ilythiir. I reasoned that the dark elves came to the region and built a bolthole of sorts (Narathmault) far away from their normal lands and enemies. They were responsible for the presence and prevalence of demons in the place. Previous lore had established that a portal lay between the region of Ashanath and the Council Hills. The Council Hills were close to the ancestral lands of the Ilythiiri and so I reasoned that this is how they got there. Whilst not stated anywhere, I held (and still hold) the belief that the portal was created by the sarrukh of Okoth - specifically members of the Ba'etith - but I won't go off on that tangent here.
I then surmised that when the Decent of the Drow came to pass, the dark elves were transformed into drow which shattered their magical bindings over a host of demons who ran amok (as demons do) and this coupled with their "change" saw Narathmault evacuated with the surviving dark elves (now drow) heading east and south and forming the current-day Undrek-Thoz. This was also a handy explanation for such a large drow enclave in a relatively remote area away from the normal thrust of the drow diaspora after the fall of Telantiwar.
The elves of Lethyr took on the role they did to make amends for the sins of their dark elf cousins, given that Lethyr was colonised in the aftermath of the Crown Wars with all of the emotional baggage that that conflict generated in the elves.
So in fairly convoluted fashion is an explanation as to the realmslore gyrations I had to go through to set up the premise of an Ilythiiri presence in the region. It was the combination of more than a few pieces of disparate existing realmslore moulded by my own views on the history of the eastern lands of the Realms. However, as with all such creative extrapolations, it may not work for you. If not, feel free to ignore it.
-- George Krashos
-Now thats what I am talking about. REALMSLORE at it's finest. Thank you Krash. :D
18DELTA
The idea of a puppet government on the Nar throne controlled secretly by half-demon Orcus-worshipping drow puts a big smile on my face, even though this is just pure speculation on my part.
Whilst not stated anywhere, I held (and still hold) the belief that the portal was created by the sarrukh of Okoth - specifically members of the Ba'etith - but I won't go off on that tangent here.
Hmmmm... now I wonder if my (same) idea was actually derived from earlier conversations with you.
Still, you should consider what I have said - that the two seperate two-way portals were in fact a single three-way system.
I also kind of like the idea of the Illuskan gate to be at Sea (part of a section that was submerged after the Sundering?) or next to it - perhaps in a Sea cave, and the other end being in lake Ashane, or on its edge (another Sea-cave?).
Just the picture of Illuskan 'Norseman' sailing their Longships accidentally into Lake Ashane tickles me in ways that... well... I shouldn't be tickeld at my age. :P
Hmmmm... now I wonder if my (same) idea was actually derived from earlier conversations with you.
Still, you should consider what I have said - that the two seperate two-way portals were in fact a single three-way system.
I also kind of like the idea of the Illuskan gate to be at Sea (part of a section that was submerged after the Sundering?) or next to it - perhaps in a Sea cave, and the other end being in lake Ashane, or on its edge (another Sea-cave?).
Just the picture of Illuskan 'Norseman' sailing their Longships accidentally into Lake Ashane tickles me in ways that... well... I shouldn't be tickeld at my age. :P
Norseman:"Arrgh, captn', it suddenly just got all foggy.
Captain:"Shut ye trap and keep rowing you good for nuthin' dogs and maybe we'll reach Ruathym by-hey, why is there a naked lass rising out of the water???"
Norseman:"Yeah, an' ders' more than one and-Tempus's oversized cod!!!Der' tryin' to board the ship, we've gotta st-argghhhh."
Captain:"Rufus no! Damn it.."
Norseman:"Land ho' captin', maybe we can ask those masked women standing at shore to help us. Eh' wenches!! Over here! Help us out and we'll give y'll the time of your lives."
Well, I haven't read the book so I'm not sure where James went with the Ilythiiri angle that I dreamt up a while ago. But I can tell you why I came up with the angle in the first place.
-Thank you, sir, for all that. Quite interesting. Anything illuminating Ancient Ilythiir is good stuff.
Thanks for the explanation George, you're as helpful as always. But that makes me wonder, is there still a Ilythiri presence underneath therethat never fled Narathmault? If there is, how much of an influence did they have on the Nars and their empire?
The idea of a puppet government on the Nar throne controlled secretly by half-demon Orcus-worshipping drow puts a big smile on my face, even though this is just pure speculation on my part.
An insane, evil dark elven "aerthil" (their name for a baelnorn) deep beneath Dun Tharos using magic over the years to connive over, manipulate and control those that walk above. Driven mad millenia ago by the whispers of Wendonai, Derath Sethomiir would make a great behind the scenes protagonist for the region and works very, very well as an explanation for a few things that I've been 'papering over' in my eastern history. Thanks for the hook - it's a good one.
-- George Krashos
An insane, evil dark elven "aerthil" (their name for a baelnorn) deep beneath Dun Tharos using magic over the years to connive over, manipulate and control those that walk above. Driven mad millenia ago by the whispers of Wendonai, Derath Sethomiir would make a great behind the scenes protagonist for the region and works very, very well as an explanation for a few things that I've been 'papering over' in my eastern history. Thanks for the hook - it's a good one.
-- George Krashos
No problem George, glad to help.
An insane baelnorn works well. It would be fun in fact, if he was breeding drow half-fiends underneath Dun Tharos and plans to release the Demon Lord Eltab from the demoncyst he is trapped in to lead his army.
An insane, evil dark elven "aerthil" (their name for a baelnorn) deep beneath Dun Tharos using magic over the years to connive over, manipulate and control those that walk above. Driven mad millenia ago by the whispers of Wendonai, Derath Sethomiir would make a great behind the scenes protagonist for the region and works very, very well as an explanation for a few things that I've been 'papering over' in my eastern history. Thanks for the hook - it's a good one.
-- George Krashos
-Wow, sir you Rock.
18DELTA :D
-Just because it's mentioned, the novel illuminates that it was Geirildin Sethomiir who summoned Wendaoni, to serve Ilythiir. That, I appreciated seeing.
Just curious, do you mean you appreciate getting a specific name, or that Geirildin Sethomiir is a name you appreciate hearing because he's been mentioned elsewhere before?
Just curious, do you mean you appreciate getting a specific name, or that Geirildin Sethomiir is a name you appreciate hearing because he's been mentioned elsewhere before?
-Getting a specific name.