I started playing the Forgotten Realms back in the days of AD&D. At the time, I really liked them. However, as my tastes (and the game) progressed, I have had a bit of a falling out with the realms. I tend to dislike straight up European style (ala Lord of the Rings) fantasy these days. Grayhawk, Dragonlance, and Forgotten Realms have all been on my less favorite setting list for a while. Indeed, I purchased the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign setting, and it did little more than sit on my shelf for its entire lifespan. The style of settings I tend to prefer is stuff like Eberron (for its magic-punk and pseudo contemporary magic-tech elements), Planescape (for its metanarrative and self reflexive narrative elements, and its similarities to the feel of stuff like the old Elric novels), Dark Sun (for its post-apocalyptic, almost bronze age/connan the barbarian like feel). Now, if the realms was the same realms of the past I know I would have no interest in it. But, with its changes, it MIGHT be something I am more interested in. Now, I know I am going to pick up the Forgotten Realms Players Guide (to plunder its crunch and mechanics for other games and settings), but I am curious: based on my stated tastes, is there anything about the Campaign Guide that might interest me as a DM? Even if I don't want to use the setting as a whole, will it give me information that I might find useful/plunder for my games in other settings?
Thanks for your input in advance.
Edit - I realize that might have come off as a bit too breezy, but I was serious. Are you asking because you want to play in the Realms, or are you asking because you don't know if you want to play in the Realms?
My only dilemma is where to set my campaign!
Do you want to run a game in 4e Realms?
Edit - I realize that might have come off as a bit too breezy, but I was serious. Are you asking because you want to play in the Realms, or are you asking because you don't know if you want to play in the Realms?
I'm honestly not sure if I want to run a game in the 4e realms. The points of light bit makes it a little more interesting to me... but if its anything like the straight up European fantasy that the old realms was, I won't be running a game in it. Eberron, Dark Sun, and Planescape will likely be more my thing. That being said, if the book has elements I might be able to plunder for other settings, then it still might be worth me picking it up...
That being said, if you still don't plan on actually running or playing a Realms game, don't bother. By itself, it doesn't have much in the way of game content, and it's not really the most interesting reading.
I would suggest, before you make your decision, read Swordmage to see if the updated flavor of the setting is more to your taste (the impression I get from it is that things have advanced a bit from the middle renaissance milieu to just a few steps shy of Enlightenment-era culture due to the unpredictability of magic forcing about half a century's worth of development on a stagnating society).
That being said, if you still don't plan on actually running or playing a Realms game, don't bother. By itself, it doesn't have much in the way of game content, and it's not really the most interesting reading.
Thank you Chris. That is exactly the sort of stuff I am looking for in order to make my decision.
I was wondering how you think the setting is the same as it has always been? In my opinion, the setting is nothing like it used to be except for the names of countries, long-lived individuals, and certain deities. I'm glad you are enjoying 4E and the changes to the realms.
-Go to a book store. Skim the book. If you like it, buy it. If you don't, then don't. That's all there is to it.
What he said
Care to quantify that Merrik? I understand why YOU wouldn't bother.
I have read it. Despite my serious problems with the changes, the sourcebook itself is just an inferiorr product IMHO. There is much less info than in previous REalms books. The info on each nation is too minimal for my tastes. I like info on political structures, NPCs, etc etc
Having skimmed these forums and read a whole lot of posts before I posted this (I wanted to get a feel for the posters who will respond to me) I have come to understand that you neither like 4e, nor the 4e realms, no?
Thats wrong actually. I have been a proponent of 4e. other than the new magic system, I like 4e. However, I hate the 4e realms. Except for the Returned Abeir part. Thats pretty cool actually
From what I understand, you are going to be playing Pathfinder instead?
Not true. I am looking into Pathfinder as a possible alternative and it seems somewhat interesting but I have made no such decision. Perhaps after I review the Campaign book I will
You loved the old realms?
who doesn't? I have been w/ the realms since I bought that 1e Grey Box. Greyhawk and Mystara are old memories for me now
Drunken_Master_Nowak,
I was wondering how you think the setting is the same as it has always been? In my opinion, the setting is nothing like it used to be except for the names of countries, long-lived individuals, and certain deities. I'm glad you are enjoying 4E and the changes to the realms.
For the most part, my games have been set largely in the Dales or Waterdeep, and those areas are pretty much the same as they ever were, only with 100 years of time gone by. Sure, if your campaign was in Unther, or the city of Zhentil Keep, or Calimport, you're going to find the new Realms to be a jarring change. I am finding it all very easy to adapt to.
Most of the original gods are still there, most of the old countries and cities are still intact, and most of the old organizations are still functioning (although some, like the Harpers and Red Wizards have changed focus). I can still run a Waterdeep campaign with brawls in the city streets, political intrigues between city factions, songs and tales from bards at local watering holes, and exploration of crypts and dungeons. Likewise, the flavor of Cormyr and the Dales are intact, more or less. And I find the new areas like Akanul very interesting. I'm currently running Keep on the Shadowfell & Thunderspire Labyrinth in the Thunder Peaks area, and the "feel" of the Realms is still there, for myself and my players.
The players have changed, and the board has changed a bit, but the game remains the same to me. Rediscovering the Realms is - for my part, at least - going to be a pleasure.
Cyber-Dave
You loved the old realms?
who doesn't?
Everyone loves the old realms. Especially Cyber-Dave, who has stated several times how much he loved it and how much he hopes Realms 4e will be just like it.
:D
Buy the Book.
Even if you don't run a Realms game, its full of of generic bits you should find useful when running any 4e world.
Actually, now that I come to think of it, Waterdeep or Baldur's Gate would make a really good setting for my campaign based loosely on The Phantom of the Opera...
----
However, I must reiterate - I wouldn't get it unless you actually plan on using it for the setting. If you just want to borrow a bit here and there, I don't think it would be worth it unless you plan on borrowing a lot (for example, if you wanted to take the whole of Returned Abeir - a whole new continent that can be effectively used as a setting in its own right - plus a bit here and there that catches your eye, it might be worthwhile. If, however, you'd just want to lift Cormyr, Baldur's Gate, Calimshan and the Five Companies of Halruaa, then it wouldn't be a worthwhile investment).
What he said
-It's the best advice out of everyone who's contributed. It's the only way the OP will know for sure.
Well, most of your issues with it will be gone with this edition... except for the major one. Like I said, the flavor that I get from it is more of a 16th-17th century vibe than a 12th-15th, but it's still very European: it's just moved on from the medieval to the baroque--well... neo-baroque. A close analogue would be the adventure fiction of Alexandre Dumas, particularly The Count of Monte Cristo.
Actually, now that I come to think of it, Waterdeep or Baldur's Gate would make a really good setting for my campaign based loosely on The Phantom of the Opera...
----
However, I must reiterate - I wouldn't get it unless you actually plan on using it for the setting. If you just want to borrow a bit here and there, I don't think it would be worth it unless you plan on borrowing a lot (for example, if you wanted to take the whole of Returned Abeir - a whole new continent that can be effectively used as a setting in its own right - plus a bit here and there that catches your eye, it might be worthwhile. If, however, you'd just want to lift Cormyr, Baldur's Gate, Calimshan and the Five Companies of Halruaa, then it wouldn't be a worthwhile investment).
I heard Abeir has something to do with giants and whatnot? Can anyone give me a bit of some info about the place? Maybe it will be useful to me as a Xen'Drik style continent...
Abeir- abberations, dragon overlords, and primordials.
Even if you don't run a Realms game, its full of of generic bits you should find useful when running any 4e world.
I haven't found that to be true.
The one thing I did like for another campaign would be the Returned Abeir stuff. That in and of itself would be a cool place to campaign in 4e. Name it soemthing else if need be.
I heard Abeir has something to do with giants and whatnot? Can anyone give me a bit of some info about the place? Maybe it will be useful to me as a Xen'Drik style continent...
It's actually closer to Argonessen, since the nations on Returned Abeir are mostly run (or at least, bullied by) dragons. Basically, the titans ruled there until they were overthrown by the dragons and either banished or driven beneath the earth. The dragons set up isolated dracocracies according to their own tastes (for instance, there's one region that most closely resembles the city-states of medieval Italy, which are fairly self-run except that their draconic overlord comes to visit every so often to collect tribute, and if she isn't happy with the way things are run she initiates a regime change by eating the previous ruler; there's another one that is similar to imperial China and Japan, with the draconic upper classes using the peasantry of their fiefs in private wars to exterminate each other while attempting to curry favor with the Empress).
I hated the abundance of high level NPC's.
I never understood this complaint w/ the Realms. Yes, it had many uber-NPCs. So what? There was no law that they had to have anything to do w/ your campaign. Heck, the DM could have just bumped them off. Don't like El? OK, The Zhents assassinate him in your campaign. Don't like Khelben? Fine, he's trapped in the Abyss. Bye bye
I hated the intense amount of detail that every inch of the landscape seemed to be covered by.
Another common complaint and as opposed to the last, I could see this being an issue for a DM. I loved the details and played off them as much as possible.
I hated the fact that I felt like there was very little room for me to be creative with the old realms.
I feel there is a ton of room for creativity. In fact, I feel the abundant details leads to creativity
I haven't found that to be true.
Neither have I. The Five Companies, maybe, and possibly the Malaugrym - and I think that Erlkazar is just begging to be ripped out of Faerun by the Dark Powers and shoved into Ravenloft - but I wouldn't pay for the whole book just for those. And if all I wanted was Abeir, I'd convince someone else to buy the book and then just borrow it
I never understood this complaint w/ the Realms. Yes, it had many uber-NPCs. So what? There was no law that they had to have anything to do w/ your campaign. Heck, the DM could have just bumped them off. Don't like El? OK, The Zhents assassinate him in your campaign. Don't like Khelben? Fine, he's trapped in the Abyss. Bye bye
The problem lay more on the players' expectations. Same with the lore: if the players were familiar with it, they often didn't bother to distinguish between what they knew and what their characters knew. For instance, when playing the Shadowdale adventure, when we came across a cryptic riddle that pointed the way to a tomb under a skeletal dragon (I don't remember the significance of this), our group stopped play for an hour and a half arguing using out of character knowledge about what the clue meant. I still have no clue what it meant, because I knew nothing at all about the lore and thus spent that hour in excruciating boredom. Yes, this was metagaming. Yes, our GM should have stopped it. But he didn't, and not every GM is going to.
I mean, look it over, certainly - but I'd wait.
skimm through it, if ye like it buy it, if you dont like it, then dont.
if you aint got the gold for it, then the point is dont be getting it
otherwise read swordmage, blackstaff tower, the thay trilogy, and the twilight war stuff....If you dont like what you read, then its just not for you.
you can actually also read some of the articles in dragon and the eatures section.
I fear we may get more out of the ddi articles then the frcs $e.
1.) The actual gamer who plays tabletop games and needs some material to facilitate that-
and
2.) The world afficionado who loves fantasy realms and likes "tour guidebooks" of imaginary worlds.
I think that customer #1 would buy this for the setting information IF they're never played in the Realms before and want to play 4e D&D games.
Also, I think that customer #2 would be extremely disappointed in this guidebook. I don't think many customer #2-types are going to continue being Realms fans given the "writing style" (if you can call it that) of these guides. They're so dry and devoid of in-depth detail that they're nigh useless for setting fans trying to learn more of the story of FR.
Finally, I think that many of the people on this board are customer #2's, and probably aren't buyin'. I know I am (not buying).
being secretly overrun by Sharrans
And that pretty much sums up the whole new version of the setting.
18DELTA
And that pretty much sums up the whole new version of the setting.
No offense Alediran, but if the above is what you have to say, please stay out of my thread. Neither the 4e hatemongering you have in your sig, nor posts like the one I just quoted, are of any help to me. You hate 4e, you hate 4e realms, and I get that. I also don't really care. Personally, I think 4e is the best mechanical iteration of D&D ever. But this thread is neither the time nor the place for either of us to argue our position. There are enough other battleground threads in this forum for you to find one, and dig yourself a trench, if that is what you want to do. If you care to post something that actually responds to my original post, or someone else's post, in a constructive manner, then your input is more than welcome.
The book is definitely worth the money, if just for the story. The Moonshae Isles and Returned Abeir would fit well into any campaign, and there are an abundance of ideas that you can take and shape to your own ends.
I'm still deciding how I feel about all the changes, but I definitely understand why it changed. Go for it, it's only 40 bucks!
I never understood this complaint w/ the Realms. Yes, it had many uber-NPCs. So what? There was no law that they had to have anything to do w/ your campaign. Heck, the DM could have just bumped them off. Don't like El? OK, The Zhents assassinate him in your campaign. Don't like Khelben? Fine, he's trapped in the Abyss. Bye bye
Another common complaint and as opposed to the last, I could see this being an issue for a DM. I loved the details and played off them as much as possible.
I feel there is a ton of room for creativity. In fact, I feel the abundant details leads to creativity
Fair enough. There is a lot of battle-ground threads in this forum already, so I am going to avoid turning this thread into another one. I don't care to argue the point either way. Its fair that you don't agree, and feel the way you do. None the less, I still feel the way I do, and still dislike the old Realms for those reasons. Its also not that I am not well read in the Realms. I am. I have owned the original realms box set, the menzoberanzan (spelling?) boxed set, the 3e realms campaign setting, a friend of mine owned the Undermountain boxed set... I even played the old Shadowdale trilogy back when it first came out. Plain and simple, my experience with the realms have led to my current opinion of the (old) realms. My current opinion is very different from yours.
What LK (and others) have said - look it over before buying it; no one else can tell you if you'll like it except you.
The one thing I did like for another campaign would be the Returned Abeir stuff. That in and of itself would be a cool place to campaign in 4e. Name it soemthing else if need be.
I already have...
I call it Perkinsbarf. :D
True, that. Hopefully your options aren't limited like mine - the local game stores in my area shrink-wrap all their merchandise.
Then you should hit them with sharp sticks.
And that pretty much sums up the whole new version of the setting.
-Nope. It's not a secret anymore. ;)
People think a book of campaign ideas is worth $40? - I am getting old.
-I certainly don't. Even if this new book was more like the FRCG , AGHotR, and the DM's Guidebook to the Realms combined, it'd still not be worth it. No game book should be $40.
-I believe the FRCG is $29.99, though.
--I believe the FRCG is $29.99, though.
who pays that?
who pays that?
-In bookstores, that's the price (again, I think). Whether or not you want to pay that price is up to you.
-In bookstores, that's the price (again, I think). Whether or not you want to pay that price is up to you.
I believe its 39.99 and you can get it on amazon for about $24 and you could have got it last week at buy.com for the same price
I guess I would agree with what some others have said: you should either buy or not-buy based on what type of buyer you are. I think there are two types of D&D book-customer.
1.) The actual gamer who plays tabletop games and needs some material to facilitate that-
and
2.) The world afficionado who loves fantasy realms and likes "tour guidebooks" of imaginary worlds.
I think that customer #1 would buy this for the setting information IF they're never played in the Realms before and want to play 4e D&D games.
Also, I think that customer #2 would be extremely disappointed in this guidebook. I don't think many customer #2-types are going to continue being Realms fans given the "writing style" (if you can call it that) of these guides. They're so dry and devoid of in-depth detail that they're nigh useless for setting fans trying to learn more of the story of FR.
Finally, I think that many of the people on this board are customer #2's, and probably aren't buyin'. I know I am (not buying).
This is very true. I am indeed the "Customer #2" type and after perusing the book at my local bookstore, I'm passing on it.
I'm still holding out hope for the Player's Guide next month.
I believe its 39.99 and you can get it on amazon for about $24 and you could have got it last week at buy.com for the same price
You and your damn buy.com promotions.
As far as I've see, we're talking about $30 anywhere you go. Minus "promotions," of course.
People think a book of campaign ideas is worth $40? - I am getting old.
What LK (and others) have said - look it over before buying it; no one else can tell you if you'll like it except you.
My take, being a Realms lover that doesn't truly play at this point in time?
If you are looking for depth and just like to emerge yourself in the setting--skip this purchase. You'll find everything you need on these boards. There is simply no depth, just generalizations. Ask what you are looking for here and you'll find it without the charge.
If you are looking to game in the 4e Realms and have little time to flesh out and research your own stuff, then, yes, it is worth the buy.
Also, I'll be setting up a new website soon where you can donate to compensate against my misfortune an the post-traumatic stress I am dealing with.
Please visit www.judgedookieslobotomy.com in the days ahead and spare what you can for a poor Dookie. Screw those Jerry's Kid's for now.
I’d like to be able to recommend you buy it, but I just bought my copy less than two hours ago and haven’t even read through it completely.
I’ve already started a 4E FR game in Cormyr sans Campaign Guide (we’re playing through the H series adventures) and so far it’s got a pretty classic Realms feel to it.
Based on a quick read-through, I’d say you can plunder quite a bit from this book for your own homebrew game. As to whether there are non-crunchy bits you could use for an Eberron or Planescape type game....I’m not so sure about that (yet).
Best of luck to you either way and hope to see you around these forums some more.
You and your damn buy.com promotions.
As far as I've see, we're talking about $30 anywhere you go. Minus "promotions," of course.
well, to me there is a big difference between $24 (at amazon or buy) and $40 plus tax. I believe don't get free shipping with amazon
As a final note: Westgate has a Chinatown (but the Triads are the good guys in all of this)...I'll have to work that into my current story line but I think I've got a way to make it work. That's about as non generic Euro as you can get. I have to go dream of Junks on the Sea of Fallen Stars now (Chow Yun Fat from the last Pirates of the Carribean movie teaming up with Aboleths...sweet!0.
well, to me there is a big difference between $24 (at amazon or buy) and $40 plus tax. I believe don't get free shipping with amazon
Well, I did state $30 and not $24. And I live in Chicago, where the sales tax is the highest in the nation at 10.25%--and I still didn't see it over $30.
EDIT - scratch
Then you should hit them with sharp sticks.
Yes, I should. Alas, if I were to do so, the RCMP would not be amused.
If you are looking for depth and just like to emerge yourself in the setting--skip this purchase. You'll find everything you need on these boards. There is simply no depth, just generalizations. Ask what you are looking for here and you'll find it without the charge.
You probably will get more than whats in the 4-Gotten Realms Campaign book
I believe its 39.99 and you can get it on amazon for about $24 and you could have got it last week at buy.com for the same price
-No books should be $40. I think I accidentally spent that much on the Draconomicon.
-Books should be free. I'd have a hell of a lot more money...
-No books should be $40. I think I accidentally spent that much on the Draconomicon.
at least that was actually good
-Books should be free. I'd have a hell of a lot more money...
now you're talking. of course, not too many people would want to be authors but.........
-Go to a book store. Skim the book. If you like it, buy it. If you don't, then don't. That's all there is to it.
Seconded.
Bel
at least that was actually good
-It was pretty good, yeah.
I'll add I despies both 4th and The New Realms...but that is my take on it the feel of the new setting, so take it as you will.
But I agree with Lord Karsus(who is wise beyond his years) go to a book store(or find a friend who has it) and skim it and make up your own mind.
(Though I find it odd that you don't find Eberron European feeling...considering I found the European influences alot heavier the Realms)
Anyway to sum up:
1) Yes I am not a fan of the new Realms
2) Yes I do still see it being heavier influenced by European Fantasy
3) No I wouldn't buy it as it is also just a badly written and put together product.
4) But you should look at it yourself and judge it.
I could not be more disappointed in the FRCG. This book felt more like a Wizard's Presents book than anything else, meaning the entire book feels like a preview. The Dalelands get 6 pages. 6? Seriously? Pitiful. The whole book is like this. For the most part, anything mentioned at all get's one paragraph of information we already know, a recap, if you will. If you're lucky, it might get another paragraph of updated information. As a general rule, this book is nothing but recap paragraphs and History / Streetwise check results. Comparing this book to the FRCS from 3.0, the FRCG is an absolute flop. There is a thread around here with some tidbits from the FRCG, and if you read that thread, you will know everything of use, and I mean everything, from this book. If I could send this book back for a refund, I would. It is worth nothing to me. I can only imagine Ed Greenwood's disappointment.
I really like the map though. It's pretty.
That's not forgivable.
I can forgive people for liking 4e, even though Pathfinder is ten times as cool. I can forgive people their opinions on lots of things in a heartbeat.
But there is no excuse for bad editing just to meet a deadline. Ever.
And before you guys say a word about "You can't play 4e," I have, met the challenge and my team took 3rd place at the D+D Open at Gencon. So don't think for a minute that I've never cracked the books.
Actually, one of my main disappointments with this book IS the map. The map has errors, quite a few of them, and it was poorly proofed.
If only the horrible maps was the only problem with the book. If only.....
I strongly suggest you look at the book before purchasing. Many here have strong opinions, both pro and con, but the real truth can only be formed by your personal preferences.
Hey Alediran, if your project over at the vault ever gets off the ground, maybe we should call it the Real Realms. :D
It's the idea. I'm waiting for the moment the true fans of the setting completely shut themselves from the $ed crap and come to work in the Real Realms.
It's the idea. I'm waiting for the moment the true fans of the setting completely shut themselves from the $ed crap and come to work in the Real Realms.
I'm over there
Again... :embarrass
I was going to put a LOT of effort into re-writing the barebones setting that is 4e (there are some pretty good ideas in there that just need flehing out), but I think that same effort would be better served finishing up the FIVE major 3e projects I'm working on.
It does have more detail then I think people are giving it credit for though. For example, the section on "Faerun and Beyond" is 152 pages long and covers 56 separate locations (and that's with listing Returned Abeir and the Underdark as only two single entries. Both cover multiple locations). By comparison, the same "Geography" section in the FRCS is 132 pages and covers 50 locations.
I would not say that a double-page in the CG contains more information than a double-page in the FRCS. Mainly because the font in the CS is considerably smaller. But I would have to check this first, before blaming WotC that they want the readers to believe that more pages is the same as more lore. :D
I would not say that a double-page in the CG contains more information than a double-page in the FRCS. Mainly because the font in the CS is considerably smaller. But I would have to check this first, before blaming WotC that they want the readers to believe that more pages is the same as more lore. :D
Yes, the font does appear to be a little smaller in the FRCS but I wasn't saying that the FRCG has MORE lore then the FRCS, just that it has more lore then some here give it credit for, and that it doesn't even include the lore which will be found in the FRPG. As I said, I believe that WotC took the info topics covered in the FRCS and broke it out into two books instead of one.
It also bears saying that the text in the 4E FRCG is very economical. Not a lot of wasted words, and all of the lore tends to directly impact the game. There was a lot of wasted exposition in the FRCS and a lot of lore that didn't directly impact the game.
Yeah I agree. I think that stems from the designers thinking of the FRCG being first and foremost a gaming aid and any storytelling element was probably a secondary concern. Which is fine by me...
I don't care for the map style, though - there is too much of just one or two colors and textures. I much prefer the style of the 3rd edition maps I've seen.