Simbul's Tempest and Mythal Spark - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Simbul's Tempest and Mythal Spark

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
The_Simbul_of_Aglarond
Dec 08, 2009 22:42:28 Why do neither of these spells include the INT modifier of the caster in their damage rolls?

Virtually every attack power with variable (i.e. roll dice) damage includes the modifier of the relevant ability score, yet neither of these do. Even the powers of paragon paths that are not class specific (and thus do not have a set primary ability score) still have their damage values increased by a selected ability modifier.

Is this intentional for some obscure invisible mathmatical reason, or is it a typo?
#2
Doombringer_of_Hoar
Dec 09, 2009 6:26:17 I don't know why you don't get your Int mod to the damage. Maybe they felt that the other benefits of the Power was enough?
#3
Diffan
Dec 09, 2009 7:52:08 The Mythal's Spark has a huge area (5 squares) and it targets will, a defense that is often lower than Fortitude or Reflex. In additon, it's effect holds creatures in place by not letting them teleport and they cannot use powers with Healing in the keyword. It's pretty powerful considering it's a 3d10 damage for a Controller class.

As for the Simbul's Tempest, this power is extreamly useful at the later Paragon tier and Epic tier where many creatures place debilitating effects that a save can end. This power will pretty much remove at least 1 condition on you if you hit multipul targets and with the possibly all conditions being removed. In additon, it's 5d10 and it's force, so it hits incorporeal creatures as well.

#4
The_Simbul_of_Aglarond
Jan 16, 2010 23:24:13 I am aware of the secondary properties of these spells. For the moment I am going to set aside my disagreement with the idea that the effects are valuable enough to make it too powerful to include an ability modifier. Instead I am going to, for the sake of arguement, assume they would be 'too powerful' with the added damage of the relevant ability modifier in order to make a more important point:

The issue is that by not applying an ability modifier they contradict the core mechanics of D&D.

At its very basic level D&D is a game of variable AND consistent numbers, applied together to determine a range of success/failure of a given action.

The variable numbers--which come from rolling dice--represent chance, fate, luck, or anything else you want to include under the numerous random minor elements that can affect the success or effectiveness of a given attack or action. These are represented by a d20 roll, damage roll, saving throw, etc

The consistent numbers--those which are a (usually) consistent value and added to the dice roll--represent things like training, aptitude, or the raw power or talent of the acting character. The consistent numbers serve to raise the bar on the minimum possible damage of an attack, so that even on a very bad day a well trained or skilled character can still acchieve a result equitable to their skill. These are represented by ability modifiers, skill training bonuses, profciency bonuses, etc.

If the rationale for not applying the INT modifier to these attacks is because the secondary effects would be too powerful (and I do not necessarily concede that they are) then they should simply reduce the amount of damage DICE to compensate. The maximum potential damage would not be increased, but the minimum potential damage would be raised to make the attack worth using even on a poor damage roll (just like virtuallyevery other attack power in the game). 3d10 damage for a controller class is not that impressive when it can potentially only inflict only 3 points of damage.

Now as to the issue of their effects; compare the damage, area, and secondary effects of Simbul's Tempest and Mythal Spark to Closing Spell or Maelstrom of Chaos. The former two paragon path powers are more than equitable in terms of area and damage, and their secondary effects are very potent. The only difference is that the two Forgotten Realms paragon path powers do not include an ability modifier, but the two standard paragon path powers do.
#5
Diffan
Jan 24, 2010 4:59:17
I'm away from my books right now so I can't delve into comparing the Simul's Tempest and Mythal Spark to other Wizard spells of the same level. And I doubt you'll get a straight-forward answer from WotC so in your position, i'd just add in the Ability modifier to the damage line anyways. If your correct, it won't make the spell anymore powerful than others of it's peers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 The_Simbul_of_Aglarond Dec 08, 2009 22:42:28	Why do neither of these spells include the INT modifier of the caster in their damage rolls? Virtually every attack power with variable (i.e. roll dice) damage includes the modifier of the relevant ability score, yet neither of these do. Even the powers of paragon paths that are not class specific (and thus do not have a set primary ability score) still have their damage values increased by a selected ability modifier. Is this intentional for some obscure invisible mathmatical reason, or is it a typo?
#2 Doombringer_of_Hoar Dec 09, 2009 6:26:17	I don't know why you don't get your Int mod to the damage. Maybe they felt that the other benefits of the Power was enough?
#3 Diffan Dec 09, 2009 7:52:08	The Mythal's Spark has a huge area (5 squares) and it targets will, a defense that is often lower than Fortitude or Reflex. In additon, it's effect holds creatures in place by not letting them teleport and they cannot use powers with Healing in the keyword. It's pretty powerful considering it's a 3d10 damage for a Controller class. As for the Simbul's Tempest, this power is extreamly useful at the later Paragon tier and Epic tier where many creatures place debilitating effects that a save can end. This power will pretty much remove at least 1 condition on you if you hit multipul targets and with the possibly all conditions being removed. In additon, it's 5d10 and it's force, so it hits incorporeal creatures as well.
#4 The_Simbul_of_Aglarond Jan 16, 2010 23:24:13	I am aware of the secondary properties of these spells. For the moment I am going to set aside my disagreement with the idea that the effects are valuable enough to make it too powerful to include an ability modifier. Instead I am going to, for the sake of arguement, assume they would be 'too powerful' with the added damage of the relevant ability modifier in order to make a more important point: The issue is that by not applying an ability modifier they contradict the core mechanics of D&D. At its very basic level D&D is a game of variable AND consistent numbers, applied together to determine a range of success/failure of a given action. The variable numbers--which come from rolling dice--represent chance, fate, luck, or anything else you want to include under the numerous random minor elements that can affect the success or effectiveness of a given attack or action. These are represented by a d20 roll, damage roll, saving throw, etc The consistent numbers--those which are a (usually) consistent value and added to the dice roll--represent things like training, aptitude, or the raw power or talent of the acting character. The consistent numbers serve to raise the bar on the minimum possible damage of an attack, so that even on a very bad day a well trained or skilled character can still acchieve a result equitable to their skill. These are represented by ability modifiers, skill training bonuses, profciency bonuses, etc. If the rationale for not applying the INT modifier to these attacks is because the secondary effects would be too powerful (and I do not necessarily concede that they are) then they should simply reduce the amount of damage DICE to compensate. The maximum potential damage would not be increased, but the minimum potential damage would be raised to make the attack worth using even on a poor damage roll (just like virtuallyevery other attack power in the game). 3d10 damage for a controller class is not that impressive when it can potentially only inflict only 3 points of damage. Now as to the issue of their effects; compare the damage, area, and secondary effects of Simbul's Tempest and Mythal Spark to Closing Spell or Maelstrom of Chaos. The former two paragon path powers are more than equitable in terms of area and damage, and their secondary effects are very potent. The only difference is that the two Forgotten Realms paragon path powers do not include an ability modifier, but the two standard paragon path powers do.
#5 Diffan Jan 24, 2010 4:59:17	I'm away from my books right now so I can't delve into comparing the Simul's Tempest and Mythal Spark to other Wizard spells of the same level. And I doubt you'll get a straight-forward answer from WotC so in your position, i'd just add in the Ability modifier to the damage line anyways. If your correct, it won't make the spell anymore powerful than others of it's peers.