I've always used it as a natural science with no magic involved but rumored by craftsman and wizards as magical so the average joe wouldn't make it.
As for it's use in 4e, I don't think it would work any differently and the renissance weapons table (found in the 3.5 DMG) wouldn't change. Just add a proficiency bonus of a +2 or +3 to them and wham, new gunns for your 4e Realms!
Firearms in Forgotten Realms...
Also includes Cyber-Daves 4e firearms rules.
I've always used it as a natural science with no magic involved but rumored by craftsman and wizards as magical so the average joe wouldn't make it.
-That, for the most part, how I handle gunpowder in my own setting.
Basically, it boils down to this - Smokepowder can be used in primitive Blackpowder weapons (it says so in the Spelljammer rules), and we know from Watercourse that it has the SAME chemical formula as Gunpowder, and that the words 'Gunpowder' is used interchangably with 'Smokepowder' and 'Thunder Powder' (IIRC) in the Empires trilogy.
Ergo, one can surmise that Smokepowder IS indeed Gunpowder, buuut... has a dweomer placed upon it to circumvent 'Ao's refusal' (or whatever the heck you want to call it), which automatically blocks any tech higher then steam-power from working within Realmspace.
I've turned it into a Feat (Enchant Smokepowder), rather then make it a spell, since non-Mages in Kara-Tur can create it. I suppose it can also be a spell, learnable by priests of Gond (which would make a lot of sense, since it originated with them, I would imagine).
BTW, just for the record - I've created the Skyfire Guild in Kara-Tur, which keeps the Feat/Formula top-secret, in order to still maintain some control over the substance, and not just anyone can manufacture it (otherwise the guild comes after them... and do you really want a guild based around explosives to be your enemy?)
Just my
Thank Bejebuz that place is gone.
Smokepowder is SO 2nd edition.
Thats why I'm going with Uzzys in the kara-Tur material.
I was saddened when I read the description of Loudwater Apothecary (area 9) talking about gunpowder. That's a small town in the middle of nowhere and the apothecary's proprietor is neither a mage nor a priest of Gond.
I hope with Lantan gone we never hear gunpowder or smokepowder again.
Uzzys though are a great idea ;)
Put 'em all together and you got yourself a party. :D
Uzzys, Katanas, Midgets, and Monkeys all make everything more fun.
Put 'em all together and you got yourself a party. :D
Actually, midgets and monkey's make a party.
Adding Uzzi's and katana's creates a massacre.
Add them to FR and you get vomit.
I was saddened when I read the description of Loudwater Apothecary (area 9) talking about gunpowder. That's a small town in the middle of nowhere and the apothecary's proprietor is neither a mage nor a priest of Gond.
Normal people aren't allowed to be alchemists? That makes no sense.
Normal people aren't allowed to be alchemists? That makes no sense.
-Not if they don't have the knowledge of how to make the substance, no.
-Not if they don't have the knowledge of how to make the substance, no.
So, why does one have to be a priest of Gond or a wizard to know how to make smokepowder?
Being a spellcaster is apparently necessary for the magical input in the smokepowder recipe.
The recipe for smokepowder is the intellectual property of the church of Gond, and they don't like to share it.
Why couldn't someone have researched it independently?
Being a spellcaster is apparently necessary for the magical input in the smokepowder recipe.
It's just gunpowder with another name, isn't it?
Why couldn't someone have researched it independently?
It's just gunpowder with another name, isn't it?
Why so many questions? :p
We repeated everything there was to know about smokepowder in the other thread I linked to above.
The Kara-Turans already had smokepowder for centuries by the time Gond arrived on Lantan and taught people there the secret. It's not impossible for independent discovery (on Earth, the Koreans reversed engineered the Chinese gunpowder for themselves), and the Thayans might have done so for their bombards. But then, the Gondar are quick to say "that's our intellectual property" and thwart all efforts. It's possible, but unknown if anyone actually succeeded (the Thayans went back to arcane bombards).
Smokepowder works the same as gunpowder, but seems to be put together a little differently. It's been said to be magical, Craft Wondrous Item is needed to craft it in 3e even though no spell is required. In 2e, it was priced as magical to limit its availability, but was apparently not magical at all.
It's not magical.
Since it is a canon fact that gunpowder does not work in the Realms, and yet Gunpowder weapons will work if you use Smokepowder in them, the two must be the same exact thing, with the only difference being that somehow Smokepowder bypasses whatever 'field' operates around Realmspace, dis-allowing 'high-tech'.
That is why I say the powder itself is NOT magical and anyone can create it. It just takes a priest or a wizard to 'energize' it (in other words, make it so it bypasses the rules - which is exactly what all spells do anyway - break the laws of physics).
When you cast a fly spell on a wizard, he doesn't 'grow wings', he is just able to (temporarily) break the laws of gravity. The wizard is still the same wizard either way.
Keep in mind that the Shou have had access to smokepowder for thousands of years - long before Gond revealed its secret to his followers.
Precisely.
And the guys making it are ordinary folk- its used for simple fireworks, and readily available to anyone with the money.
I picture there being big factories (in K-T) - WELL away from populated areas - and a priest/Wizard comes in at the end of the day, waves his hands and mumbles some mumbo-jumbo over the place's output for the day.
So one magical person could readily 'enchant' massive quantities, since he is not taking the time to pesonally make the mixture.
In the west, only the priest of Gond and a few others (like certain Thayan Wizards) know the precise formula, so it requires them to do all of the 'grunt work' as well, which slows the whole process down and limits the amount that can be made, which also happens to drive the cost up considerably.
A person could make a fortune just bringing the stuff in from Kara-Tur... but imagine the logistical nightmare of trying to transport the stuff.
One Red Dragon, Salamander, or fire Eelemental, and your goose is cooked... literally.
Keep in mind that the Shou have had access to smokepowder for thousands of years - long before Gond revealed its secret to his followers.
And...? What's even the point in that? Simply to align it to our own real history?
And the guys making it are ordinary folk- its used for simple fireworks, and readily available to anyone with the money.
I picture there being big factories (in K-T) - WELL away from populated areas - and a priest/Wizard comes in at the end of the day, waves his hands and mumbles some mumbo-jumbo over the place's output for the day.
When you can hire a decent wizard to come in and cast illusions of great grandeur, what the hell is the point of creating smoke powder for fireworks?
A person could make a fortune just bringing the stuff in from Kara-Tur... but imagine the logistical nightmare of trying to transport the stuff.
-That's what the players in my game began to do, once upon a time.
When you can hire a decent wizard to come in and cast illusions of great grandeur, what the hell is the point of creating smoke powder for fireworks?
For the pretty lights and loud booms. you "hoity-toity" scotch drinking person
For the pretty lights and loud booms. you "hoity-toity" scotch drinking person
Eh, still trying to get on the scotch. Two different tastes, that Jim Beam and Glenlivet. Though, the latter definitely makes you more:
As for "hoity-toity," after you've had a glass of EB or BE, well, things are seen in a different light. I suggest everyone get off that and quickly. Poor judgment do such things cause.
(Yes. That was me in Yoda mode.) will do the same. Go figure.I think I will go crawl back to Dongarten until I can come up with a proper retort for you.
Bring me a taco back, will ya? Hear they're tasty there.
Back on topic. IMO the idea of Smokepowder/gunpowder would have been the beginng of opening the doorway to have more "real" world theories into FR that would begin to take away from the pure "fantasy" of this realm. I'm glad they kinda swept this under the rug so to speak.Yeah. Do that.
Bring me a taco back, will ya? Hear they're tasty there.
Anything for the Judge. Hot sauce or no?
Anything for the Judge. Hot sauce or no?
Control your own scotch before you reply next time, eh?
-Eh, I don't think so. In my own setting, gunpowder/smokepowder/whatever you want to call it exists, and is somewhat common in some places. One of my PCs regularly uses a pistol. I don't think that this has ever made my setting "less" fantasy or anything, however.
-Understood. Can you explain the 'IMO'? Like I said, I've never encountered that before, or even hints of it, despite using it.
Ah I see I am still not quick enough to snatch the pebble from the true "Master of the Obvious"(it echos) hand.
-I am asking why you think that introducing things like gun/smokepowder is a doorway for minimalizing the fantasy elements, and so on.
When you can hire a decent wizard to come in and cast illusions of great grandeur, what the hell is the point of creating smoke powder for fireworks?
Because Kara-Tur is VAST, and Wizards (Wu-Jen) are not avalable in every tiny village, but any idiot can light a fuse. ;)
Magic is VERY different in the Eastern Lands, and it is well-regulated and controlled (especialy in the island-nations of Wa and Kozakura).
Wu Jen either work for the state, or they are evil: There is nearly no canon Mages that are both good and independent of the state, and the one or two I have found have done 'community service' in one form or another.
In Kara-Tur, you either work with the Gov't, or you are it's enemy - that how a well-oiled bureaucracy functions.
Warning: Homebrew!
Also, I'm thinking about spinning the 'Skyfire Guild' as an outgrowth of a particular church (Shu Chia), to give them some connection to the Realms lore. Therefore, the Monks of Shu Chia would be the ones who cast the spells over the powder, and the factories would exist alongside monasteries to that god (who may very well be the Eastern version of Gond in the 4e Realms).
As for 'motorized cartridges', in my Anchorome: 1489 campaign, I had a Gnomish built 'machine gun'. The inventor was named kaitlin, and the weapon was known as the 'Kaitlin Gun', but only two were ever actually built, because the Gnome died while testing a newer model (they tend to jam, and sometimes hurt/kill their users).
The Elves of the Holly Forest - the ONLY Elves to embrace technology - used a variant of the human firearms. They were magical devices enchanted with elemental magic. One dweomer to create a ball of metal, and the second to create a massive quantity of air in the chamber behind the metal ball (making it a gas-powered weapon, rather then chemical). These weapons were extremely difficult to make (lesser artifacts), and were NEVER given to anyone outside of that small community.
And you know the old saying - "Hollywood guns NEVER run out of ammo". :D
Yes... I am VERY big on puns when I game... :P
As far as the gameplay aspect of it I'm sure it can be fun to use depending on the DM and players. But when I saw this in novels I was reading my first thought was "Great what's next motorized carriages" . I know this is going to be short and maybe not make sense to some of you but the "fantasy" world should remain a"fantasy" world changes are ok as long as they are wqithin the rules of the "fantasy " world. Smokepowder defied the laws of magic and made it easy for a person with no power to gain power easily without the effort that every character has to otherwise go through.
-I guess I've always equated primitive firearms with fantasy, so including primitive firearms is no big deal.
-I guess I've always equated primitive firearms with fantasy, so including primitive firearms is no big deal.
Noted. But in my experience humans are very imaginative and if smokepowder were to run unchecked in this realm those "primitive weapons" can overtime become "sophisticated weapons" in no time @ all. But again to each his own and since I consider you one of the more knowledgable posters here I'm pretty sure you've made it work quite well in your realms.
Because Kara-Tur is VAST, and Wizards (Wu-Jen) are not avalable in every tiny village, but any idiot can light a fuse. ;)
And not every village or town that we have can afford fireworks. Makes things a bit more special when you have to make a trek for it. Commerce centers work that way.
But then you got guys like Gandalf riding all over Mid... errrr... Kara-Tur, with a wagonload of Fireworks for sale.
I kid... I kid.... the truth is (the way I'm spinning it) is that anything beyond a firecracker or sparkler is the province of the Guild, who not only controls manufacture and distribution, but also has a group of professionals trained in their use and to choreograph shows.
Except for them, only the nobility is allowed to get their hands on sizeable quantities of Smokepowder, and even then it requires a 'Guildsman' to oversee it's proper use (for both display and military applications).
Besides, why do people have such a hard time using Smokepowder in their Realms? Its not like bows aren't much better, and easier to obtain ammo for, not to mention a helluva lot more quiet.
Jeez, if RAS can invent 'plumbing' and pipe in natural gas to create an explosion that dwarfs one made by Smokepowder, a silly little one-shot flintlock is no big deal.
Because Kara-Tur is VAST, and Wizards (Wu-Jen) are not avalable in every tiny village, but any idiot can light a fuse. ;)
This freaking lighter isn't freaking lighting UP!
Oh there we go
I'm gonna have a gnome discover blasters and phasers one day, and pop them on an unsuspecting Realms I think... though I suspect those would be more acceptable than a blackpowder.
I'll make a High priest of Shaundakul open a Gate and summon NAVY S.E.A.L.s And SF guys :P
-Ever hear of the Howling Voice Guild, from Suikoden?
That game is the SH!T Dawg! Specially Suikoden III
So its no good?
That Guild sounds like a combination of the Skyfire Guild I'm creating and the guild of 'social assassins' called Sinanju.
Don't like putting them together - my guild is based off the one in WoT - I never said it was original - I just adapted it (and there it's called The Illuminator's Guild).
So its no good?
-No, it's very good. Ody is overcome with positive emotion and excitement just thinking about it, such that he cannot talk properly, as demonstrated above. It is the aforementioned noun, as opposed to just being the aforementioned noun.
I'm gonna have a gnome discover blasters and phasers one day, and pop them on an unsuspecting Realms I think... though I suspect those would be more acceptable than a blackpowder.
So, will the Elves split into two distinct races - the ones that follow logic, and the ones that enbrace their 'inner chaos'.
Mine did. :D
I call them the Vulcaani and the Romulari.
I even have Klingonesti. :P
If you do create Blasters, make sure to give one to some kid who gets good enough to hit an Osquip from a hundred meters...
So he can eventually take down the Shade Enclave.
Telemont: "Cale... I am your father!"
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And I didn't like Stargate, so just chuck that idea... Quantum Leap was okay though, at least the few episodes I actually watched.
Well, not even guns, but AI-controlled robots, quantum jumpers, jetplane diver bombers, even diesel-engine tanks! (Erm, sorry, not diesel, those tanks run on Firestalk Whiskey...)
I think the real problem with the gunpowders is that people take them too seriously as a fundamental factor of the Real World. Well, that's true to a large extent, but my thought is that the DM doesn't have to make them matter that much. Low-key them, like.
Gunpowder doesn't even have to be magical in principle - throw in a magically flammable plant as an ingredient and gunpowder no longer is so un-fantasy.
Just my opinion.
I think the real problem with the gunpowders is that people take them too seriously as a fundamental factor of the Real World. Well, that's true to a large extent, but my thought is that the DM doesn't have to make them matter that much. Low-key them, like.
-Right. Like I said, concerning my own setting, *I* am the one in charge. I don't want the presence of gunpowder to "mess things up". So, as the one in charge, I make them, as you say, "low-key".
And I didn't like Stargate, so just chuck that idea... Quantum Leap was okay though, at least the few episodes I actually watched.
But he leaped one too many times, and wound-up as Captain of the Enterprise. :D
I think we need to have a summit meeting over at Babylon 5 about all this, and discuss the future of Galactica. We may need to sacrifice her to take-out the Doctor's Tardis.
Or deploy Moya against the Cylon Peacekeepers... maybe Lexx as well...
I don't know what's worse, those Borg, or the Terminators....
Only if my Romulari can ride corrupted Rocs and call them Birds of Prey. :D
Darn, for a second there I thought you were referring to Huntress, Oracle and Black Canary when you said Birds of Prey. :D
As far as smokepowder goes, I am pretty ambivalent. I like the idea for the most part, but sometimes it just doesn't fit right. Ultimately, I would base it on the group of players and the geographic location of the campaign. It would work very well in a far east, high seas, or Lantan game, but not too many other places.
But he leaped one too many times, and wound-up as Captain of the Enterprise. :D
I think we need to have a summit meeting over at Babylon 5 about all this, and discuss the future of Galactica. We may need to sacrifice her to take-out the Doctor's Tardis.
Or deploy Moya against the Cylon Peacekeepers... maybe Lexx as well...
I don't know what's worse, those Borg, or the Terminators....
Well since the Borg no longer exist its those pesky Terminators though I hope no one figures out that one of them is "The Guvenator"
As long as Smokepowder doesn't expand in the realms(I know some of you disagree) then I'm ok with it being a small part of the realms:invasion:
As long as Smokepowder doesn't expand in the realms(I know some of you disagree) then I'm ok with it being a small part of the realms
-Exactly. That's my policy, and I'm sticking to it.
By the by though, Smokepowder probably has to "expand" on some level, or it would never provide the propulsive force needed to propel a projectile. :D
But he leaped one too many times, and wound-up as Captain of the Enterprise. :D
I think we need to have a summit meeting over at Babylon 5 about all this, and discuss the future of Galactica. We may need to sacrifice her to take-out the Doctor's Tardis.
Or deploy Moya against the Cylon Peacekeepers... maybe Lexx as well...
I don't know what's worse, those Borg, or the Terminators....
They got rid of the Borg? Hmmm... never cared for them, so good riddance I say.
By the by though, Smokepowder probably has to "expand" on some level, or it would never provide the propulsive force needed to propel a projectile. :D
Yeah it turned out that millenia ago (Spoiler if you planning on reading David Mack's Destiny triology) A race called the Calier? had to forcefully combine with a human to survive and somehow the combination got warped and the protocol "assimilate and expand" beame the main programming instead of "combine and survive". In the end the 24th century Caelier teamed up with the Enterprise and found that Caelier aspect that was warped and absorbed it back into themselves thus no more Borg. Funny that a Human was reponsible for the greatest threat that Humanity had ever come across isn't it
But anyway my worry about Smokepowder was that it would take the place of say"Fireball" and provide people with an easy form of destruction.And in Passage to Dawn pirates had already had arquebuses(cannons) on their ship.
As to smokepowder taking the place of a fireball... it doesn't seem that likely to me. I'm not going to point out however that arquebuses were proto-rifles without the actual rifling, not cannons... at least historically speaking as far as I'm aware.
They were extremely slow to reload, dangerous to use, and very inaccurate over any sort of range. They still packed power, and if used in large numbers, fatal to any lightly armoured formation.
The tactical effectiveness of arquebusiers could not be proven effective until the Battle of Pavia (1525, I think?) because of all the disadvantages piled up on it; so I don't think it would be much of a problem if one of my players pulled one out mid-battle. The true problem with the guns is when they turn up in large numbers.
To conclude, yeah, gunpowder need to be uncommon.
Ia m supprised that no one has mention the spell jammers ships and the smokepowder they use.
In case anyone is looking for a more up to date version of my 4e firearm rules, they can be found in my signature under my 4e Renaissance fantasy rule set (which I specifically designed for use with my personal vision of my 4e Forgotten Realms setting games).