From what I'm understanding, in order to indicate that certain Drow are good, their skin becomes LIGHTER. So darker skin = evil; lighter skin = good.
Does anyone else think that's a monumentally bad idea? I'm not at all in favor of being PC, but I almost spit out my beer when I first read that (if it hadn't been McEwans I might have gone ahead and spit it).
Anyway, I'm using a little hyperbole, but in the end I have to say this cracks me up. WotC couldn't have been more obvious about it if they'd tried
Now, as to whether this is a 'good idea' or not, simply from the standpoint of RL racial overtones... eh, I'd say it's really no worse than the general notion of Drow and Surface Elves. We already had the paradigm that the light-skinned elves were usually good, and the black-skinned ones were horribly evil monsters. There were exceptions to both, of course, but that's been the general rule. As unfortunate as it may be, I think we're more or less stuck with the notion of Drow as they are - they're too impressed on the general gaming consciousness as such.
Personally, I'm more inclined to go a different route if/when I come up with my next campaign world. I will likely cast the 'Dark (evil) Elves' more in the mold of those in the Warhammer universe (pale skin, usually dark haired but can vary) or of the Shadow Elves of classic D&D's Mystara (pale skin, light hair color), at least in terms of physical description.
The change to lighter skin for good ones just seems to pile on a bit. An imaginary (and not serious) discussion at the development table:
Dev1: Hey guys, what we working on today?
Dev2: Well, we're going to have a whole bunch of "good" Drow in the setting.
Dev1: Oh, cool. Sounds like fun.
Dev3: Yeah, only problem is, we don't know how to distinguish these good Drow from the bad ones. We've thought they might wear special tabards or something, but that seemed kind of lame.
Dev1: (nods)
Dev2: I've got an idea, why don't we make their skin lighter than the bad ones, so they're not as "bad" as the others?
Dev1: (scratching head) You mean so that people know they're not as bad because their skin isn't as dark?
Dev2: Sure. I mean think about. When you're walking down the street and you see a dark guy coming the other way, don't you get scared and want to cross to the other side?
Dev1 and Dev3: (nod)
Dev2: But when you see a white guy you're not scared, right?
Dev1 and Dev3: (shake heads)
Dev2: Ok. That's because we all know the darker a person's skin is, the more likely it is they're bad. So why not just incorporate that into the game.
Dev1: (pauses thinking) You know, that's not bad. I like it.
Dev3: Me too. We're doing it.
Dev2: We could even have Drow's skin get a little darker everytime they do something bad, and lighter when they do something good, until the really good ones end up as white as you and I!
Dev1: Awesome. 'Hey Timmy, did you take a cookie without asking?' 'No, Mama.' 'Don't lie to me boy, your skin wasn't that dark this morning!"
(laughter all around)
Dev1: Well, now that that problem is solved, you guys want to knock off and grab a Pabst?
Dev2: Heck yeah!
Dev3: Git 'er done!
What occured was that (most/all of) the good ('redeemable') drow were transformed into their original, pre-curse selves - Ssri'Tel'Quessir, or "Dark Elves". Though swarthy in complexion, they were not the obsidian-skinned drow. Basically, this is what most of the Drow were prior to the events in the Crown Wars that led to the creation of the Drow, according to FR lore.
-This is correct (with the exception that Ssri'Tel'Quessir does not translate to 'Dark Elves'. We don't have the exact translation. I hypothesize that 'Ssri' means 'south', meaning that the Ssri'Tel'Quessir were the 'People of the South'). In the climax of The Lady Penitent trilogy, select Drow who meet specific criteria have the High Magic Ritual that caused the Drow to transform such that they physically matched the darkness in their hearts reversed. Thus, the revert into the forms that the race had before the Descent of the Drow at the end of the Fourth Crown War. Rather than being ebon-skinned, with light manes of hair, Dark Elves are dusky-skinned, with dark manes of hair, much like the Green/"Wild Elves" they were retconed into being a part of in AGHotR. The notion of Dark Elves is not a new notion, and has existed at least since Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, as that is the earliest supplement I can think of that contains this information. Perhaps the Evermeet sourcebook and/or novel, if either are earlier sources.
-All that said, as discussed in another thread, the notion that skin color determines relative "goodness" or "badness" is untrue, and was debunked.
In all fairness to the designers, the nature of the pre-Descent dark elves was established a long time ago. That they're being reverted now really isn't associated with that (and it's not like they could make them darker skinned :P ).
On a more serious note, I'd like it better if the goodness or badness wasn't reflected in any physical change. Why make it obvious on sight which one's are good and which are bad? Not done with any other races. I don't see the reason to tie the two.
The notion of Dark Elves is not a new notion, and has existed at least since Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, as that is the earliest supplement I can think of that contains this information. Perhaps the Evermeet sourcebook and/or novel, if either are earlier sources.
The Greyhawk Drow predate the FR ones, though. I think the lore behind them and how they go that way was quite different. And the idea of dark elves in general certainly isn't new, and they come from mythology.
On a more serious note, I'd like it better if the goodness or badness wasn't reflected in any physical change. Why make it obvious on sight which one's are good and which are bad? Not done with any other races. I don't see the reason to tie the two.
-Dark Elves aren't necessarily "good" or "evil". The circumstances by which a great deal of Drow transformed was simply based upon heritage. Bloodline. A Drow acts and does what they do due to their environment, not their genetics. Genetically, a Drow is a tabula rasa in the Forgotten Realms, and it is their upbringing in Lolthite (or Ghaunadauran/Kiaransaleean/Selvetarmite/Vhaeraunian) society that makes them what we know them as. So, a Drow transforming from Drow to Dark Elf still thinks, feels, and most importantly, acts, as he/she always did.
The Greyhawk Drow predate the FR ones, though. I think the lore behind them and how they go that way was quite different.
-Being as that the Forgotten Realms aren't Greyhawk, what Greyhawk says on the matter doesn't matter.
-Dark Elves aren't necessarily "good" or "evil". The circumstances by which a great deal of Drow transformed was simply based upon heritage. Bloodline. A Drow acts and does what they do due to their environment, not their genetics. Genetically, a Drow is a tabula rasa in the Forgotten Realms, and it is their upbringing in Lolthite (or Ghaunadauran/Kiaransaleean/Selvetarmite/Vhaeraunian) society that makes them what we know them as. So, a Drow transforming from Drow to Dark Elf still thinks, feels, and most importantly, acts, as he/she always did.
Hmmm. I'm more familiar with the Greyhawk version to be honest. In that setting they are evil by nature. I like what Eberron did with them, however.
-Being as that the Forgotten Realms aren't Greyhawk, what Greyhawk says on the matter doesn't matter.
Wow, you really are the master of the obvious. Congrats.
I'm making a point generally about Drow. I don't recall saying it impacted the Realms, do you?
Hmmm. I'm more familiar with the Greyhawk version to be honest. In that setting they are evil by nature. I like what Eberron did with them, however.
-See above.
Wow, you really are the master of the obvious. Congrats.
I'm making a point generally about Drow. I don't recall saying it impacted the Realms, do you?
-We're talking about the Forgotten Realms.
-We're talking about the Forgotten Realms.
Yeah, I switched to making a more general statement. Sorry you didn't follow it. I realize these are the FR forums, but you might have noticed that people sometimes mention other settings when subject matter overlaps.
Now, as to whether this is a 'good idea' or not, simply from the standpoint of RL racial overtones... eh, I'd say it's really no worse than the general notion of Drow and Surface Elves. We already had the paradigm that the light-skinned elves were usually good, and the black-skinned ones were horribly evil monsters. There were exceptions to both, of course, but that's been the general rule.
Actually, I do want to point out (as I just pointed out on Candlekeep) that of the surface elves, only moon elves and perhaps avariel (and maybe lythari?) were "lily white". Gold elves are supposed to be bronze, and wood elves and wild elves are supposed to have brown/tan skin. Sea elves have blue or green skin.
-Being as that the Forgotten Realms aren't Greyhawk, what Greyhawk says on the matter doesn't matter.
Ditto.
I've mentioned before that I find a lot of the concepts brought up in the LP series to be "silly".
Let's face it, you don't get dark skin living in the Underdark. You lose all your pigmentation.
If I ever find the time to make my own campaign setting, and decide to do a Drow-like race they're going to be albino.
Let's face it, you don't get dark skin living in the Underdark. You lose all your pigmentation.
Just like the Shadow Elves from Mystara. Only I wouldn't use the same god/immortal. He looked too much like Bill Gates.
One gamer, whom I promptly kicked out, attempted to link Orcs with black people.
I don't see it.
I think FR did a nice job in seperating the monsters that are damned from the eyes of the Multi-Ethnic Seldaine by merging them with living Shadow from the idea that Dark Skinned Elves are bad.
Actually, I do want to point out (as I just pointed out on Candlekeep) that of the surface elves, only moon elves and perhaps avariel (and maybe lythari?) were "lily white".
-Correct. Lythari are indeed "lilly white". They have white fur as well. Thus, their monikers, "Silver Shadows".
Let's face it, you don't get dark skin living in the Underdark. You lose all your pigmentation.
-They didn't get dark skin from living in the Underdark. They were cursed into the forms they wear now when the High Magic ritual that banished the Drow cast cast, and made their forms match the darkness in their hearts.
To be honest; I think that attempting to link creatures who look like living darkness personified (Drow) with people of African descent and other darker skinned peoples is actually one of the most racist things imaginable.
-And, of course, none of the sources do this. All these notions come from people. People who are either misinformed, or have "agendas".
select Drow who meet specific criteria have the High Magic Ritual that caused the Drow to transform such that they physically matched the darkness in their hearts reversed. Thus, the revert into the forms that the race had before the Descent of the Drow at the end of the Fourth Crown War. Rather than being ebon-skinned, with light manes of hair, Dark Elves are dusky-skinned, with dark manes of hair, much like the Green/"Wild Elves" they were retconed into being a part of in AGHotR.
I'll probably retcon this in my home campaign into not changing the skin but only the hair. Thanks for writing up the canonical reasoning though
If none of that is covered in the 4e FR books, what other 3.5 FR source books was that covered in (if any)?If none of that is covered in the 4e FR books, what other 3.5 FR source books was that covered in (if any)?
-What specifically? The Descent of the Drow? The retcon of Dark Elves being Green/"Wild" Elves? Something else?
-And, of course, none of the sources do this. All these notions come from people. People who are either misinformed, or have "agendas".
Agreed.
I think people who want to make this link should pause and think what that says about them.
Agreed.
I think people who want to make this link should pause and think what that says about them.
-Well, they're not necessarily "bad" people or anything (they could be promoting a reversal of such a false notion, for example), but they're misinformed, or reaching for straws for something that simply does not exist.
-What specifically? The Descent of the Drow? The retcon of Dark Elves being Green/"Wild" Elves? Something else?
Specifically where it goes into detail on the Drow losing their cursed appearance.
Specifically where it goes into detail on the Drow losing their cursed appearance.
-Oh. That is discussed in the novel Ascendancy of the Last.
-Well, they're not necessarily "bad" people or anything (they could be promoting a reversal of such a false notion, for example), but they're misinformed, or reaching for straws for something that simply does not exist.
I agree. I do think that it's just effectively something that boils down to the idea that the Evil Surface Elves were cursed to be visibly identifiable as members of the race. Likewise, I think that I never actually liked the Drow of the Underdark book because it made the Drow always dark skinned.
I felt that actually caused uncomfortable racial comparisons as opposed to being a curse from above that they'll be looking like pieces of burnt charcoal.
-Oh. That is discussed in the novel Ascendancy of the Last.
Thanks
I always had a fun argument with a player who hated the fact there were innately evil races in D&D. He stated it was an inherently racist concept.
My rebuttal was something like "You prefer player characters to indiscriminately slaughter real life humans who are probably complex beings with people who love them?"
Thanks
-No problem.
I always had a fun argument with a player who hated the fact there were innately evil races in D&D. He stated it was an inherently racist concept.
-That's silly. In D&D, evil is a very intangible, very real, very actual thing.
-Note, though, that there are different reasons for inherently evil races, so described in the Monster Manuals. Like here, there's races that are evil due to societal influences, and there are races that are evil due to nature. An example of the first would be Drow (Lolthite society makes them evil), and example of the latter would be Devils (evil incarnate).
Like those elves from the new Hellboy movie? Yeah, they look pretty sweet.
I want to see that movie! In fact, when I first saw the trailer, I quipped that the guy on the poster was a gold elf, and I didn't have a clue at the time that he actually was an elf.
And when it comes to the color of the uncursed drow, if one really wants to see something that isn't there, they only now turned into the color of real world "black" people, which is outright racist against us pasties. I mean, like, first they featured a white drow chick as a villain in that adventure, and now oh-so-conveniently drow suddenly become black people when a curse is lifted off them? Hello, prejudiced much?
And when it comes to the color of the uncursed drow, if one really wants to see something that isn't there, they only now turned into the color of real world "black" people, which is outright racist against us pasties.
-The Dark Elves have always been of a dusky skin color and dark hair color. This is nothing new.
-The Dark Elves have always been of a dusky skin color and dark hair color. This is nothing new.
Dusky skinned and pale hair, you meant?
Dusky skinned and pale hair, you meant?
-Sources vary. That, of course earns a: '
'So Ed's drow were white in the start?
-Yeah, crazy albinos (which can be construed as another negative stereotype). Their presence was never canon, however, and is apocryphal.
-Sources vary. That, of course earns a: '
Nay ... only the "newly created dark elves" vary from the sources we had. Why that is the case nobody knows for certain. Well, some people do, of course.
Nay ... only the "newly created dark elves" vary from the sources we had.
-Yes, hence the part that sources vary. ;)
Their presence was never canon, however, and is apocryphal.
What do you mean by that? Where and when did the albino drow appear?
What do you mean by that? Where and when did the albino drow appear?
-They appeared as such in his notes before the setting was sold to TSR. When the setting was turned into a D&D setting by TSR, the instituted the albino Elves that existed in the Underdark with the Drow. Thus, their existence in the setting was never official...Apocryphal.
-Albino Drow appear, and are existent, but they are not the Albino Elves that were originally envisioned in the Underdark.
the instituted the albino Elves that existed in the Underdark with the Drow. Thus, their existence in the setting was never official...Apocryphal.
If I understand this right (I don't really understand the "the instituted the albino Elves" part), TSR replaced the albino elves with drow and gave the new drow the same position once held by the albino elves?
-Albino Drow appear, and are existent, but they are not the Albino Elves that were originally envisioned in the Underdark.
That sounds interesting. Are they a separate group or just a note "drow can also sometimes be albinos"? If they're a separate group, what source books (if any) do they appear in? They sound quite interesting and might be something I want to include in my 4e FR campaign
Now we got the dark drow in the Realms and the whole history of them - how they came about, what they had been in days gone bye and all - was developed later on. It can be found (substantial info, that is) in Cormanthyr and Demihuman Deities. During the whole War of the Spider Queen scenario, the designer of City of the Spider Queen introduced (AFAIK) the albino drow, i.e. a drow that has no pigmentation and looks much like an surface elf. A rare occasion and these "albino drow" got their full write up - rule-wise - in the new Drow of the Underdark.
But colour-coding seems to work. Dragons used to be that way; simplifies things for adventurers.
Ain't that complicated ... now, IMHO, Ed envisioned his "subterran elves" of the "his" pre-TSR-Realms as albino elves, much like creatures living in the darkness loose their pigmentation (become pale / white) - much like in "real life". TSR apparently liked the idea of incorporating Gary Gygax' dark and evil "drow" into the FR better and hence they substituted the elves Ed had in store with Gygax's mean drow. Whether that is true or not only Ed can answer, of course.
Thanks, I understand that
During the whole War of the Spider Queen scenario, the designer of City of the Spider Queen introduced (AFAIK) the albino drow, i.e. a drow that has no pigmentation and looks much like an surface elf. A rare occasion and these "albino drow" got their full write up - rule-wise - in the new Drow of the Underdark.
Aaah okay. So they're not a separate group who've formed their own society, they're just albinos who happen to be drow?
Aaah okay. So they're not a separate group who've formed their own society, they're just albinos who happen to be drow?
Exactly, just "albino drow" and a very rare occurance at that. Of course, drow matrons apparently "value" these albinos and rear them carefully, as they can be send to the surface as ultimate spies.
If I understand this right (I don't really understand the "the instituted the albino Elves" part), TSR replaced the albino elves with drow and gave the new drow the same position once held by the albino elves?
-More or less, right.
That sounds interesting. Are they a separate group or just a note "drow can also sometimes be albinos"? If they're a separate group, what source books (if any) do they appear in? They sound quite interesting and might be something I want to include in my 4e FR campaign
-In Drow of the Underdark, albino Drow get information about them. They aren't their own separate race, and it's a case like in real life, where every so often, an albino appears in the total population.
-Note that these albino Drow aren't the same things as the albino Elves that Ed Greenwood envisioned in the Underdark. Well, not necessarily, anyway.