or does it just up and only list the core three again??
Please direct statements here: [thread=1125314]Thread about Manual of planes already on General Discussion[/thread].
why? thats a very different topic... This thread should be in the realms general or realms lore section.
to answer your question though, FR itself has converted to the axis cosmo system.
There isn't any information on how the dominions transfer, but it shouldn't be to hard to simply rename core ones to the names given in the FRCS. Or simply say that both sets exist, the dominions in the FRCS have very specific uses (cynosure, the supreme throne) but others (like celestia) work perfectly with the MoTP.
why? thats a very different topic... This thread should be in the realms general or realms lore section.
I don't disagree with the FR alternative, but the thread answers his second question with the first post, even:
Things Included that I Didn't Expect:
The Great Wheel is still around. It's an alternate take on the planes, but it's still there for those who just couldn't bear to see it go.
The Blood War is given a pretty good write up. It gives good details on why it's not currently raging...and what will set it off again.
I'd be surprised to find it doesn't address FR later in that thread.
that would have been a repeat.. see page 80 of the FRCG, it clearly handles all this information.
The MotP, in regards to the World Axis, states:
Although various campaign settings may have their
own arrangement of planes, the default planar structure
of the D&D game is the World Axis cosmology.
-pg. 12
However, there is a chapter on customizing the planes to suit whatever tastes you have. Under the Customizing the Cosmology section:
The World Axis cosmology only represents one of
many possible planar arrangements for a D&D
campaign. It’s the default setting, and all upcoming
4th Edition DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game products
assume that the World Axis cosmology is the one
you’re using in your campaign. However, you can
create your own cosmology for your campaign.
-p. 13
Then it goes on to give a few basic guidelines for restructuring the cosmology, such as:
We recommend leaving the parallel planes and
fundamental planes in place. Many spells, effects,
and monsters are tied to the Astral Sea, Elemental
Chaos, Feywild, and Shadowfell. If you eliminate
these “structure” planes, you may create gaps in the
game rules. For example, if you get rid of the Shadowfell
or greatly alter it, the Shadow Walk ritual would
have to be changed, too. Relatively minor alterations
are possible. If you don’t want a goddess of death on
your plane of shadow, you can remove the Raven
Queen and her palace of Letherna, and move a similar
deity of death to the astral dominions. It won’t
interfere with any rules operations in the game.
-p. 13
So they make it as easy as possible to adopt any setting or combination of settings over to the Axis. To have listed FRs cosmology independently, they would have had to do the same for each and every campaign setting. I'm glad they didn't do that. That's simple enough that anyone should be able to do it. It's as easy as plug-and-play with renaming a few things to suit your tastes.
1.you are discussing how to restructure the planes...
2.he/she asked how to restructure the planes to match the FRCS....
you are correct on how to do #1
but #2 is different, you make it sound like you have to change things... when all you have to do is add the dominions and elemental realms
frcs 60
Toril and Abeir, held together in the natural
world, are situated amid other planes of existence.
Most theoreticians place the Astral Sea, domain of
the gods and resting place of their dominions, above
the world. A mixture of energy and elements exists
below in the Elemental Chaos; at its bottom, the
Abyss roils with demonic malice. Alongside the world
are its reflections: the mystical Feywild, a place of
boisterous life and magic, and the gloomy Shadowfell,
a dim realm of decay and apathy.
Toril and Abeir, held together in the natural
world, are situated amid other planes of existence.
Most theoreticians place the Astral Sea, domain of
the gods and resting place of their dominions, above
the world. A mixture of energy and elements exists
below in the Elemental Chaos; at its bottom, the
Abyss roils with demonic malice. Alongside the world
are its reflections: the mystical Feywild, a place of
boisterous life and magic, and the gloomy Shadowfell,
a dim realm of decay and apathy.
great wheel is an example, you can organzie them anyway you want (basically you can recycle the old MoTP for the most part)
Does this tome contain anything useful to a DM that plans on staying pre-Spellplague?
Just curious, are you playing 4E?
I'm sure I wouldn't need to ask if I spent more time on the boards. I have always assumed most who disliked the post-Spellplague Realms hadn't moved to 4E. The two aren't mutually exclusive, but it seems to play out that way more times than not. Again, I'm just curious, with no hidden agenda or bias.
The only reason I am against the rules at all is because they made some grand, sweeping statements about them, and I don't think they lived up to the hype.
Are they any good? Probably... but so was 3e. Really no point in switching, IMHO, if they both have their ups and downs. If they had come out with a set of rules that blew me away, which is what I was anticiapting, I would have switched in a heartbeat (like I did from 2e to 3e).
So I'm not being so negative anymore - just an overall when it comes to the rules.
The post-Spellplage disaster they call FR, now THAT is another story. Very, VERY disappointing, to say the least. To me, its like eating fat-free snacks, or non-alchohalic beer.
Basically, your just going through the motions, but the payoff is somehow missing...
My real point, though, was weather or not this book would prove useful to someone staying 3e/3e, both rules and world. That may seem like an odd question, but I know people who still buy the 3e products, even though they run 2e FR in 1359. The plothooks and storlines and all the other goodies make the books worth buying in any edition.
Hell, I have have splatbooks from a dozen or more systems I've never run, and probably never will, but the subject-matter interested me enough to buy them and harvest them for ideas.
Basically, if I'm not playing 4e at all, would I still be able to walk away with some good stuff from this?
but FR isn't great wheel, if it was, then it'd address his problem. FR isn't and hasn't been great wheel.
It was for the majority of its history in print. It wasn't till 3e that it was retconned into a different cosmology. And 4e rather abruptly changed the cosmology again for the second time in less than a decade. But the vast majority of FR's lore as it pertains to the planes and planar influence on FR was created within the frame of reference of the Great Wheel cosmology.
It was for the majority of its history in print. It wasn't till 3e that it was retconned into a different cosmology. And 4e rather abruptly changed the cosmology again for the second time in less than a decade. But the vast majority of FR's lore as it pertains to the planes and planar influence on FR was created within the frame of reference of the Great Wheel cosmology.
I am aware of this, and also appreciate the notion. But the OP's question was on conversion using the FRCS (which does use the axis cosmology). And the end all beat all answer is that the current realms cosmo doesn't need any conversion at all (nor will Eberron), you just have to add extra dominions.
Spelljammers are now used to sail/travel the Astral Sea. I prefer this method of jamming than the flying through space 2E version. There are more planar monsters in it if you are playing 4E.
If you have other Planes books you may not need this but I am sure people can find ways to link this to their current games especially if it is set in 4E.
in your case marcus, I'd recommend the 3e MoTP. Unless you have a genuine interest in the axis cosmology.
Is there also an 'Allies' cosmology? :P
There are some neat things that can be mined from the Planes book.
Spelljammers are now used to sail/travel the Astral Sea. I prefer this method of jamming than the flying through space 2E version.
THAT alone might make it worth my buying. Are there lots of details and lore, or is it all summed up in what you said there?
Thats the way I always preferred it myself. In retrospect, a LOT of the 4e design decisions I would have also made... I think I would have just presented them in a way that wasn't so... hostile... to the current fans.
I even shifted Evermeet back to Faerie and had Chult seperated from the mainland several years ago... maybe I should change my locks.
I was vehemently anti-4e Rules, but I'm coming around... a bit. Still not sure if I'd ever run it, but I'd like to try playing in someone else's game.
The only reason I am against the rules at all is because they made some grand, sweeping statements about them, and I don't think they lived up to the hype.
Are they any good? Probably... but so was 3e. Really no point in switching, IMHO, if they both have their ups and downs. If they had come out with a set of rules that blew me away, which is what I was anticiapting, I would have switched in a heartbeat (like I did from 2e to 3e).
So I'm not being so negative anymore - just an overall when it comes to the rules.
Understood.
The post-Spellplage disaster they call FR, now THAT is another story. Very, VERY disappointing, to say the least. To me, its like eating fat-free snacks, or non-alchohalic beer.
Basically, your just going through the motions, but the payoff is somehow missing...
I can completely understand this. I like the new Realms, but that's largely due to the fact that I wasn't deeply invested in the Pre-Spellplague Realms. While I'm a fan of the new, I do mourn for the dedicated fans of the original. If that had happened to one of my favorite settings, I'd be disgusted.
My real point, though, was weather or not this book would prove useful to someone staying 3e/3e, both rules and world. That may seem like an odd question, but I know people who still buy the 3e products, even though they run 2e FR in 1359. The plothooks and storlines and all the other goodies make the books worth buying in any edition.
Hell, I have have splatbooks from a dozen or more systems I've never run, and probably never will, but the subject-matter interested me enough to buy them and harvest them for ideas.
Basically, if I'm not playing 4e at all, would I still be able to walk away with some good stuff from this?
Yeah, I own some of this same type of stuff, for the same reasons.
Might I suggest taking a look at Star Wars Saga Edition then MT? Great ruleset, and a definite improvement over basic 3.5e as far as I'm concerned. Fairly easy to convert things over to once you get used to it.
Star Wars Saga Edition is probably my favorite system to date. I love it. It had me really amped for 4E, though the two turned out to be drastically different. I like 4E, but I love SWSE.
have a side set on how to convert to use with the FRCS??
I just got the 4th edition MotP. So far, I think its a pretty good book. Very detailed with explaining the new cosmology and its layout.
For 4th edition FR campaigns, you can append Chapter 4 of the FRCG to it (as Serphet suggested). Except for the Nine Hells (which is pretty similar in both books but with way more detail in MotP), you want to yoink all the Dominions from the Astral Sea (starting on page 90 of the MotP) and replace and/or modify all of them with the Dominions listed on page 62 of the FRCG. Even the Dominions that are similar should be replaced and/or modified. Here's some examples:
In the MotP, Celestia is described as seven mountains while in the FRCG it is three. In addition, in MotP, Celestia contains Torzak-Belgirn, The Soulforge of Moradin, while in the FRCG, Moradin has his own dominion, Dwarfhome (granted, it does have a connection to Celestia).
Arvandor is described as an archipelago of islands in MotP. No mentions of islands in the FRCG, but it does state that the Seven Golden Hills of the gnomes is located in Arvandor (In the MotP, gnomes seem to be pretty established in the Feywild).
In the MotP, Bane resides in Chernoggar with Gruumsh (who fused it with his own dominion) where they fight an eternal war to gain control of the dominion. Bane lives in an iron fortress (Tuer-Chern). In the FRCG, Bane resides in Banehold (no connections) and Gruumsh lives in the seperate dominion Nishrek (connects to the Abyss -- oddly, in the FRCG Gruumsh lives in the Iron Fortress).
Also in the MotP, Zehir dwells within Tytherion, the Endless Night high on the barren, gloomy mesas. In the FRCG, he occupies a many-tunneled escarpment within Shar's Tower of Night.
Hestavar, the Bright City, is kinda similar to Eternal Sun, in that they are both ruled by solar deities and both have some urban landscapes (Hestavar has Methion, with its great mercantile emporiums, and ES has Waukeen's Marketplace Eternal).
Pandemonium (MotP) and The Dismal Caverns (FRCG) are kinda similar in that that they both contain many caverns and tunnels. However, Pandemonium is pretty desolate (no gods reside here) and windly while the Dismal Caverns is home to oozes, slimes, fungi and Ghaundadaur.
The rest of the dominions in both books don't share any names and/or really any features. However, its important to note that in MotP, the Demonweb Pits is located in the Abyss (within the Elemental Chaos), while in FRCG it is located in the Astral Sea.
The rest of MotP should be pretty compatible with the FRCG. Both mention the City of Brass and Githzerai monasteries in the Elemental Chaos, Mag Tureah of the Feydark, the Far Realm, Demiplanes, and the dead traveling the Shadowfell (although in MotP souls travel to Letherna--The Raven Queen's abode on the Shadowfell, while in the FRCG, many pass on to Kelemvor's Fuge Plane within the Astral Sea). You should be able to use all the other locales in both books interchangably without any problems.
For those using the 3rd/3.5 cosomology, most of this should also apply. While Tiamat resided within Heliopolis in the 3rd ed. FRCS, she gets her own dominion (Tytherion) in MotP. Bane's abode within the Barrens of Doom and Despair is now kinda its own dominion (Chernoggar--noted above).
Personally, I always found the former World Tree Cosmology a little confusing. I think the new World Axis Cosmology is way more streamlined and eliminates many loose threads. And, as mentioned above, for those who still like the Great Wheel, there is a nice sidebar (actually, almost a whole page) in the MotP that also references appropriate planes (dominions) within the book.