I'm writing my first adventure in a new campaign and they are starting in the new world power, Baldur's Gate.
My question is siple, how much past the walls has the city grown? The party is apporaching from the north, so how far out would they be before they start hitting the outskirt villages and communities? 5 miles from the inner city? 10 miles? 20 miles?
I was thinking 10 miles north of the city and then about 20 miles south of the river with the southern half being the more run down, thrown together section.
Opinions?
The other option would be to array them on axis along the main roads and river in a sort of star formation and extend it out farther from the city. This would be more natural as proximity to river and roads would allow food and commodities to more easily reach the population. Of course the previous hellhole description might be more fun to run....
Anyway, i would imagine it could be quite a sprawl as squatters would like a bit of a backyard to grow veggies in and maybe keep a goat or two. So easily some 25-50 sq meters/person with roads and all counted.
Now on a base 2km and extending with a radius 20km cone, how many 50sq meter refugee howels can one fit in?
ie Baldurcity)2km---20km---) Area? Assuming about a half circle.
Guess thats subtracting one from the other..
http://www.mathgoodies.com/lessons/vol2/circle_area.html
First one: 3sq km
Second: ~1200sq km
Halving the second = 600-neglible..
600 sq km/50 sq m = 600*20.000
Err.. guess a 20km radius can fit millions :P
Or if assuming 1 hectare each, ie 600*100 = 60.000
Now thats more like it.
I would assume all livestock would have eventually moved to the outer rim, as the layout of the new 'warren-scity' became more stable.
The place had a century, so I would think certain people became prominent, even among the lower classes, and a few 'better buildings' would exist for local authorities (who probably started out as local gang-bosses and worked their way into more established positions within the city's infrastructure).
Also assume several different peiods of development, which mean at least two 'rings' of ramshackle buildings around the original city, with the first ring eventual becoming as built-up as the main city, and the last ring being the most recent arrivals living in the most squalid conditions.
Sounds a lot like Calimport.
hmm.. well there people are properly walled in, and further controlled via walls dividing into two sets of subsections. Mostly to keep hordes of slaves from rioting i guess.
The potential rebellions could always be controlled.. and then killclouding the whole subsection :P
Baldur's gate map from Baldur's gate game
-See, I knew there'd be a map out there.
Sounds a lot like Calimport.
-Calimport was also a lot cleaner, a lot more civilized.
The Baldur's Gate CRPG representation is much smaller than the actual city should be, but I like it nevertheless--I think it's true in spirit if not in scale, if that makes any sense.
-Makes plenty of sense. Especially when you take into account that it's supposed to be a metropolis, and that map looks a bit small for a metropolis.
-Makes plenty of sense. Especially when you take into account that it's supposed to be a metropolis, and that map looks a bit small for a metropolis.
It might make for a nice central core to work from. Perhaps the new BG has a number of rings that were built around that central core, then refugees glommed on in small pockets attached to the outside of that - leading to a "patchwork" type of city. Instead of clear districts like Waterdeep, perhaps it really looks more like a quilt.
-Makes plenty of sense. Especially when you take into account that it's supposed to be a metropolis, and that map looks a bit small for a metropolis.
Yeah. And I'm glad my post made sense.:D
The Baldur's Gate CRPG representation is much smaller than the actual city should be, but I like it nevertheless--I think it's true in spirit if not in scale, if that makes any sense.
(giggle)
Actually, I was thinking that it doesn't make any sense at all when I looked at it. Granted, it's a quaint little layout, but nowhere near the size or layout to accommodate 42K+ people.
As for the rings everyone speaks of--I doubt it. This place has become a sprawl. Picture a paint ball shot directly into the ground and there you go.
(giggle)
Actually, I was thinking that it doesn't make any sense at all when I looked at it. Granted, it's a quaint little layout, but nowhere near the size or layout to accommodate 42K+ people.
I meant that the way the city is used in the game conveys what I think Baldur's Gate should feel like. I wasn't too clear on that, but there you go.
(giggle)
Actually, I was thinking that it doesn't make any sense at all when I looked at it. Granted, it's a quaint little layout, but nowhere near the size or layout to accommodate 42K+ people.
As for the rings everyone speaks of--I doubt it. This place has become a sprawl. Picture a paint ball shot directly into the ground and there you go.
-That'd make it extremely boring, walking from neighborhood to neighborhood.
-That'd make it extremely boring, walking from neighborhood to neighborhood.
True. At least, they'd have to show the city in small slices, as with Athkatla in BG2 (the city is huge, but you only get to see tiny parts of it).
True. At least, they'd have to show the city in small slices, as with Athkatla in BG2 (the city is huge, but you only get to see tiny parts of it).
-Haven't played either, but I am mostly sure they do the same thing in Icewind Dale II, which I have played.
(giggle)
Actually, I was thinking that it doesn't make any sense at all when I looked at it. Granted, it's a quaint little layout, but nowhere near the size or layout to accommodate 42K+ people.
As for the rings everyone speaks of--I doubt it. This place has become a sprawl. Picture a paint ball shot directly into the ground and there you go.
I'd think more "star" shaped, with the first refugees setting up close to the roads or the river, and as more arrive gradually extending further from the walls and beginning to fill in the areas between the roads. It's the pattern you see in most shanty towns nowadays, and it can be traced to some degree in older cities such as London. There may well have been a few existing villages "swallowed up" by the expanding city and those might have retained a lot of their old character, but elsewhere there are going to be districts with a distinct ethnic character. Probably the core of the area with a market, shrines to a few popular gods (or shrines to the gods whose clerics took part in the migration), some of the wealthier locals homes, and a surrounding area with poorer individuals. I wouldn't expect much of a planned road network or sanitation. I would expect clerics of Ilmater to be around, lots of street gangs and various rather bizarre cults.
Baldur's gate map from Baldur's gate game
Ahhh, I really miss that game.
I'd think more "star" shaped, with the first refugees setting up close to the roads or the river, and as more arrive gradually extending further from the walls and beginning to fill in the areas between the roads. It's the pattern you see in most shanty towns nowadays, and it can be traced to some degree in older cities such as London. There may well have been a few existing villages "swallowed up" by the expanding city and those might have retained a lot of their old character, but elsewhere there are going to be districts with a distinct ethnic character. Probably the core of the area with a market, shrines to a few popular gods (or shrines to the gods whose clerics took part in the migration), some of the wealthier locals homes, and a surrounding area with poorer individuals. I wouldn't expect much of a planned road network or sanitation. I would expect clerics of Ilmater to be around, lots of street gangs and various rather bizarre cults.
Finally someone whose thoughts I can appreciate!
(giggle)
Actually, I was thinking that it doesn't make any sense at all when I looked at it. Granted, it's a quaint little layout, but nowhere near the size or layout to accommodate 42K+ people.
As for the rings everyone speaks of--I doubt it. This place has become a sprawl. Picture a paint ball shot directly into the ground and there you go.
I think of the Gate presented in the game as jsut the city centre.
-That'd make it extremely boring, walking from neighborhood to neighborhood.
And?
I do hope this is sarcasm, ‘cause with you in Brooklyn and I in Chicago, I think we are both aware of the neighborhoods and the degree of “boring” walks it takes to get from one neighborhood to the next.
It’s why Baldur’s Gate now has Yellow Carriage. Duh.
I'd think more "star" shaped, with the first refugees setting up close to the roads or the river, and as more arrive gradually extending further from the walls and beginning to fill in the areas between the roads. It's the pattern you see in most shanty towns nowadays, and it can be traced to some degree in older cities such as London. There may well have been a few existing villages "swallowed up" by the expanding city and those might have retained a lot of their old character, but elsewhere there are going to be districts with a distinct ethnic character. Probably the core of the area with a market, shrines to a few popular gods (or shrines to the gods whose clerics took part in the migration), some of the wealthier locals homes, and a surrounding area with poorer individuals. I wouldn't expect much of a planned road network or sanitation. I would expect clerics of Ilmater to be around, lots of street gangs and various rather bizarre cults.
Not disputing any of that. Just saying that an organized structure to its layout is not feasible.
And, as brought up with LK, there would be plenty of “neighborhoods” as you suggest.
I think of the Gate presented in the game as jsut the city centre.
Very well could be. My point is that you can’t build off that. Even the city center would have been completely overwhelmed and changed during such times and by time. Take the structures you see in the map and multiply them, destroy them, fill in the spaces with others less “quaint,” etc.
Baldurs Gate is not pretty and nor is it structured. Unless, that is, you take in the structures of society that have developed within those "fiefdoms" created throughout the city. Much in the way Bluenose is stating.
And?
I do hope this is sarcasm, ‘cause with you in Brooklyn and I in Chicago, I think we are both aware of the neighborhoods and the degree of “boring” walks it takes to get from one neighborhood to the next.
-Just an observation, not sarcasm. It would not be a very fun game if distances were taken literally.
Very well could be. My point is that you can’t build off that. Even the city center would have been completely overwhelmed and changed during such times and by time. Take the structures you see in the map and multiply them, destroy them, fill in the spaces with others less “quaint,” etc.
Baldurs Gate is not pretty and nor is it structured. Unless, that is, you take in the structures of society that have developed within those "fiefdoms" created throughout the city. Much in the way Bluenose is stating.
True, though I was just sying wahts on the picture and not tryig to contribute to the question of BG in 1479:P
-Just an observation, not sarcasm. It would not be a very fun game if distances were taken literally.
And, if I ever had a DM that actually made me play through the walking distance than simply fast forwarding through such things, I would repeatedly peg him in the head with D20’s until he figured out his error.
True, though I was just sying wahts on the picture and not tryig to contribute to the question of BG in 1479:P
Then thanks for nothing.
I’ll ask you to leave your $10 donation in the box and travel back to CGI world.
And, if I ever had a DM that actually made me play through the walking distance than simply fast forwarding through such things, I would repeatedly peg him in the head with D20’s until he figured out his error.
-When I first started DMing, once I got over that "hump"- you can just 'fast forward travel, "zooming in" when you want to have a specific encounter- I became a good DM.
Then thanks for nothing.
I’ll ask you to leave your $10 donation in the box and travel back to CGI world.
Ill just leave a link to a CG worth 10 USD:P
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/Alkasyn/wallpaper_alex_popescu_01_1600.jpg
Ahhh, I really miss that game.
The best one around. I like it even better than the sequel. However, not very much ;) They both absolutely rock. But on which message board do I tell this ;)
-When I first started DMing, once I got over that "hump"- you can just 'fast forward travel, "zooming in" when you want to have a specific encounter- I became a good DM.
You can, if you don’t make it a habit. You force some travel here and there and let them skip through now and then. As long as they don’t suspect, then it is all good.
Waste precious real time traveling in game time all the time? No.
Ill just leave a link to a CG worth 10 USD:P
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/Alkasyn/wallpaper_alex_popescu_01_1600.jpg
That’s my summer home, fart boy!! You peeking in my windows now??!
I'm building up from that for my purposes, obviously. A sprawling city outside the walls called North Gate, the old city called Old gate, a trio of earth motes that fly over the river itself that house the Grand Duke's keep and the Flaming Fists Citadel called River Gate, a well built walled city south of the river used mainly for trade with the southern half of the sword coast called New Gate and a sprawling network of dirt roads and twisting, winding throughways and ramshackle homes and lean tos called South Gate, or more widely known as The Web. Major trade routes lead around the southern district and are well guarded.
I know this violates some of the seediness of the description, but I don't want it to be a rampent sesspool or else why would anyone go there to trade? They wouldn't they'd go south to Athkatla or north to Waterdeep. So I made it like New York or LA, with some nice parts and some slums, felt more realistic to me.
FYI - there is a GREAT pic of old Baldur's Gate on page 145 of the Reader's Guide to RA Salvatore's The Legend of Drizzt.
Hmm, perhaps I will pick up that book after all.