Let's say that the war erupted when Netheril caught several spies from Cormyr in Shade Enclave, and despite Suzail's protests, executed all of them. Cormyr declares war on Sembia, and in doing so, Netheril as well. Let's also say that Sembia doesn't have any plans to try to rebel aginst Netheril, regardless of how badly the war goes in turns of profits, mostly because Cormyr is currently in the process of beseiging Sembian lands. The Cormyrians can count on assistance from the Sembian resistance though.
I understand it probably wouldn't look good for Netheril at first: Cormanthor's teeming with fey, and Netheril is surrounded on all sides. Yes, I know the outcome of the war depends on me as the DM, but I want more input. If the coalition (Cormyr+allies) won, what would be defined as "won"? As long as Shade Enclave is active, Netheril would be a threat, and I'm pretty sure all of Netheril's cities are guarded with great magic, so it wouldn't be so easy to merely have them crashing to the ground with a few spells.
-I'd go with the Netheril/Sembia and Najara coalition. Netheril rules Sembia with absolute authority, and personally speaking, I don't think that Najara adds much to the mix. In other words, they are expendable to the alliance. With Cormyr, Myth Drannor, Evereska, the Dalelands and the Silver Marches, you have a lot of conflicting personalities, a lot of conflicting policies, a lot of conflicting races, and so on. I can see all of that working to their disadvantage.
-Remember, the City of Shade and Waterdeep/Evereska/Cormyr already came into conflict with each other in 1,372 DR, and overall, I think that the Shadovar came out the ultimate winners. In 1,479 DR, with the Shadovar being that much more empowered, with the absorption of the economic behemoth that is Sembia...
Um...because a cold war is currently brewing between the two coalitions, and a war seems pretty likely at this point?
-Have they exhausted all forms of diplomacy!? Will no one listen to reason!?
In general, I don't think Netheril would do anything to provoke a war not in its best interest and I think that Cormyr's allies would put restraint on Cormyr like not offering help if they go to war over a few spies getting executed. That is what happens to spies and they have chosen to sacrifice their lives in service to their country (Cormyr.) It would be written off. Netheril didn't write it off in the past because they could gain advantage by thumping Cormyr for a few days.
Argument: the Cormyrans fought, and defeated the Sembians even after they had fallen under Netherese sway--and the text does not suggest that Cormyr had allies during that war. Sembia fighting Cormyr AND Myth Drannor/the Dalelands would probably fall quickly, particularly now that they don't have that wonderful fortress of Daerlun to guard their border.
Najara is strong, but I doubt it can seriously project force against Luruar. After all, while the text says that it is powerful and large, people don't really know that its there. This speaks of a nation that cannot mobilize its population effectively.
The question is where do the Netherese move? Without Sembia, the Netherese simply do not have the manpower to fight off the 'Good' coalition, which would lead me to believe that they would attack Cormyr in the event of a war. Then again, the magical might of Evereska and the weaker kingdom of Luruar might make for tempting targets, leading them to move west initially.
I think the good guys win, but it isn't easy. Netheril itself doesn't fall, but Sembia is liberated. Najara plays little role in the fighting beyond raids into Luruar and Evereska.
Plus who knows what other allies? Politics makes strange bedfellows. Perhaps an alliance between Calimshan and Netheril for genasi/primdorial magics in exchange for Cormyr and allied slaves. Waterdeep and Balder's Gate finacing the Cormyr side?
To build in this campaign, your going to have to do some background building to see where the alliances lie.
There are the wild cards to look at. Selunarra or the Non-Shade Netherese could become involved. Also the nobles in Cormyr who wish to return to the domination they had over the commoners might side with the royal like Shades, at the worse/best moment. Plus the Sand Kings in Netheril and the random resistance in Sembia would also come into play.
Plus who knows what other allies? Politics makes strange bedfellows. Perhaps an alliance between Calimshan and Netheril for genasi/primdorial magics in exchange for Cormyr and allied slaves. Waterdeep and Balder's Gate finacing the Cormyr side?
To build in this campaign, your going to have to do some background building to see where the alliances lie.
I don't see the Netherese gaining a lot of allies. They are pretty much opposed to everyone and everything, and their motives are fairly transparent. Maybe the Fire Knives???
On the other hand, the Cormyrans might see some rather powerful (and strange) allies. The Zhentarim have an axe to grind with the Netherese, and their connections with the Sand Kings may well come into play (albeit after the Netherese have already suffered some defeats). The description of Daerlun as host to Sembian volunteer fighters indicates that resistance to the Netherese might be widespread and deep--Cormyran and Dalelander armies might expect to be greeted with a widespread uprising of anti-Shadovar Sembians.
-Just some food for thought. ;)
I think that more importantly none of the power groups can go to war. Something would have to go terribly wrong, Dr. Strangelove style, to make that happen. Netheril can't afford to go to war because they would be more likely to lose control of sembia than to make any real gains against cormyr or cormanthor. Likewise, after the destruction of Tilverton and Ordulin, the good guys don't want to risk thousands of innocent lives even if they are likely to win.
The thesis is that war has happened, not why war wouldn't happen.
Since many of the Shar followers are nihilists and the primordials are about destruction, any possibility that in a war some shades would go to great links to awaken a primordial or two and turn them loose on the GOOD GUYS?
Just kind of a wacky thought here:
Since many of the Shar followers are nihilists and the primordials are about destruction, any possibility that in a war some shades would go to great links to awaken a primordial or two and turn them loose on the GOOD GUYS?
The Shadowfell is in as much danger from the Primordials as the Prime Material. It's unlikely the Shades would knowingly unleash Primordials who could destroy BOTH worlds at the same time.
At least, that's how I understand it...
The thesis is that war has happened, not why war wouldn't happen.
Then you have to explain why it happened before anything could make sense or even be able to create a justifiable hypothesis on the subject.
A war with the Netherise is always going to have a political aspect. We have to know who they went to war with and why.
Alliances created or lost in a war with one nation can be the exact opposite with another.
As I said, this is a non-topic--that is, until such clarifications are made.
Another non-helpful answer is that the Cormyr coalition wins in daylight but Netheril does better at night. So Cormyr should plan to campaign in spring and summer, then ask for a 'temporary' cease-fire just before harvest.
Wild card: Elminster lives in the Dalelands. At least one other of Mystra's Chosen is not far away, living in hiding. Do you think this is a coincidence? (I do not think they are planning to stop or win a Netherese War - their likely motivations are elsewhere.)
Netheril is also Shar's vessel of choice in the world; if the shades start losing, they might get a divine reinforcement. However if the shades are losing big-time, she will abandon them to their own devices. Do any of the other gods have a reason to intervene for / against either side?
I agree that Najara will not be a major factor in a war. The serpent folk clearly are trying to stay not-noticed by their neighbors. (The current ruler is uncommonly inept at it, though.) Najara will continue to be a place where nothing exciting ever happens and nobody ever goes.
I suspect that the outlines of the campaign will be:
1) Cormyr and Myth Drannor attack Sembia on two fronts, while fortifying the Netherese borders. The Dalelands are liberated easily (for internal and external reasons) but the conquest of Sembia bogs down around fortified cities.
2) Evereska launches a spoiling attack on Netheril, trying to prevent them reinforcing Sembia. This may or may not provoke a counter-attack.
3) Netheril unloads everything they can spare towards Sembia, trying to pick up a wide zone of control rather than just a shoestring. Scorched-earth tactics on the flanks, ala Tilverton, would be appropriate to prevent further interference.
4) A major battle near a Sembian fortified city when Netheril tries to raise the siege. The winner here will be able to negotiate a favorable peace (get back all losses and keep all conquests) if both sides are too hurt to continue high-pace operations.
5) Do you have any really high-level PCs? Netheril absolutely relies on Shade Enclave as the root of its power. Have somebody try to take it down. Literally.
5b) As an alternative, Sakkors (the flying city in Sembia) would be a good target - knock it out of the sky and the Sembian resistance decides you have the power to win in the end, and joins you en masse.
6) Netherese 'secondary fronts' try to hassle Cormyr and Myth Drannor. Spoiling attacks and raids seek to draw attention and resources away from the major fronts. This would include high-magic and deep penetration activity.
7) Luruar, Grey Vale, Waterdeep, and other places send adventuring parties / troublemakers / raids to bother the Netherese while they are tied up elsewhere. Just to keep the shades too busy to plot against any outsiders.
Cormyr and Sembia both have coastlines. What do the other countries - and the pirates - think of the situation? Tymanther for instance might try to form an alliance of convenience if one side is obviously winning - not to do serious harm but be a thorn in the side and base for privateers &c.
Amn is always looking for a profit. Mercenaries might make their way towards the fighting theater. Will they tear up the landscape along the way? They could provide an unwelcome rear-door attack on Cormyr. Even if the kingdom blows the first guys away - and they probably will suffer from surprise - that is men and equipment not able to face Netheril.
Then you have to explain why it happened before anything could make sense or even be able to create a justifiable hypothesis on the subject.
A war with the Netherise is always going to have a political aspect. We have to know who they went to war with and why.
Alliances created or lost in a war with one nation can be the exact opposite with another.
As I said, this is a non-topic--that is, until such clarifications are made.
Scrinoverlord presented the casus belli in his opening post.
Elaborate with specifics, then we have a topic.
No. He spoke of the factions involved.
Elaborate with specifics, then we have a topic.
to repeat: Netheril caught and executed Cormyran spies in Shade Enclave. Cormyr responds by mustering an alliance of itself, the Dales, Myth Drannor, Luruar, and Evereska, and declaring war.
-Remember, the City of Shade and Waterdeep/Evereska/Cormyr already came into conflict with each other in 1,372 DR, and overall, I think that the Shadovar came out the ultimate winners.
IIRC the war between Cormyr and Shade Enclave was a draw. At the battle of Tilverton both sides lost too many soldiers to continue the war. It could even be called a cormyrean victory as they would be easier able to conscript replacements and were just unable to lay siege to flying rock. Shade's army was indeed crippled by the loss of so many soldiers
IIRC the war between Cormyr and Shade Enclave was a draw. At the battle of Tilverton both sides lost too many soldiers to continue the war. It could even be called a cormyrean victory as they would be easier able to conscript replacements and were just unable to lay siege to flying rock. Shade's army was indeed crippled by the loss of so many soldiers
-Ultimatley, like I said, I consider the Shadovar to be the winners of the conflict. They survived everything, which is a plus in their favor. They survived everything, and did what they did shortly after arriving back in Faerûn, with very few allies. They survived everything, and did what they did shortly after arriving back in Faerûn, with very few allies, and were fighting a multi-front battle, with the Phaerimm, and then Cormyr, and Evereska. They survived everything, and did what they did shortly after arriving back in Faerûn, with very few allies. They survived everything, and did what they did shortly after arriving back in Faerûn, with very few allies, and were fighting a multi-front battle, with the Phaerimm, and then Cormyr, and Evereska, and ultimately (I think) came out stronger than they were when they went in.
Amn is always looking for a profit. Mercenaries might make their way towards the fighting theater. Will they tear up the landscape along the way? They could provide an unwelcome rear-door attack on Cormyr.
This is a good point. Cormyr has expanded in size and influence over the last 100 years, so has more to defend.
If Amn (or even Netheril/Sembia) could find the means to raise a force against Cormyr’s southern flanks (maybe fund the Draeven Mauraders or strike a deal with the mercenary Zhentarim at Darkhold or mercenaries from Westgate), they could open another front against Cormyr along the sourthern shores of the Dragonmere and perhaps stall any northern offensive underway as Cormyr is forced to re-direct resources to deal with the new threat against Elversult and Teziir.
to repeat: Netheril caught and executed Cormyran spies in Shade Enclave. Cormyr responds by mustering an alliance of itself, the Dales, Myth Drannor, Luruar, and Evereska, and declaring war.
No. I got that. So forgive me for wording and expression.
The fact that Cormyr would declare war on Sembia after the execution of some of its “spies” in Shade Enclave makes no sense to me. The risks are too great. From the start, you wouldn’t even acknowledge they were there in the first place.
In which case, any declaration of war would requires politics. The higher chain that weighs and balances the pros and cons involved with putting a nation at such risk.
Scrinoverlord speaks of “power blocs.” That does not constitute active participation in his hypothetical war. Or, at least in battle. Perhaps he meant that all decided to go at it, but there are still no specifics as to why all of them would jump in and risk all to take out Netheril over some executed spies.
This is why I find this to be a “non-topic.” Scrinoverlord needs to lay more foundation before a war is even hypothetically possible.
No. I got that. So forgive me for wording and expression.
The fact that Cormyr would declare war on Sembia after the execution of some of its “spies” in Shade Enclave makes no sense to me. The risks are too great. From the start, you wouldn’t even acknowledge they were there in the first place.
In which case, any declaration of war would requires politics. The higher chain that weighs and balances the pros and cons involved with putting a nation at such risk.
Scrinoverlord speaks of “power blocs.” That does not constitute active participation in his hypothetical war. Or, at least in battle. Perhaps he meant that all decided to go at it, but there are still no specifics as to why all of them would jump in and risk all to take out Netheril over some executed spies.
This is why I find this to be a “non-topic.” Scrinoverlord needs to lay more foundation before a war is even hypothetically possible.
Well how I see it is, the spies could:
-be highly renown, and to see them suddenly dead would probably cause at least a stir within the Cormyrian population.
-have been executed at the precise time Cormyr's Foril died and, headless, a coalition of nobles declare war on Netheril;
-All of the above?
What I thought was, because tensions are so damn high between Cormyr and Netheril, the boiling point would probably explode at the execution of spies. Why would they acknowledge the spies to be theirs? Well, perhaps the Cormyrians see this as a opportunity to annex more parts of Sembia after their shadowy governors executed the spies, thinking their backs would be covered from their allies.
By all means though, present a more "realistic" starting scenario. I'm planning to do a "Northern War" campaign (again), and I could use constructive criticism to sharpen myself. However, what I don't really want is a WWI-like scenario (AKA the politics and military alliances are so criss-crossed and confusing that one wouldn't be surprised if a country declared war on itself). This is why I presented a simple scenario: execution of (well-known?) spies. By all means, present a better scenario if it helps me. (I'm not as lore-tuned as you guys, as I have not read any FR novels, another reason to help.)
The reason I could see Najara side with Netheril is because their king might see profit from this. How? What if the Twelve Princes promised to help the serpent kingdom with gathering slaves from the surrounding country?
No. I got that. So forgive me for wording and expression.
The fact that Cormyr would declare war on Sembia after the execution of some of its “spies” in Shade Enclave makes no sense to me. The risks are too great. From the start, you wouldn’t even acknowledge they were there in the first place.
In which case, any declaration of war would requires politics. The higher chain that weighs and balances the pros and cons involved with putting a nation at such risk.
Scrinoverlord speaks of “power blocs.” That does not constitute active participation in his hypothetical war. Or, at least in battle. Perhaps he meant that all decided to go at it, but there are still no specifics as to why all of them would jump in and risk all to take out Netheril over some executed spies.
This is why I find this to be a “non-topic.” Scrinoverlord needs to lay more foundation before a war is even hypothetically possible.
he does not.
this is DnD, not a history class. as much as it's fun for DMs to wargame and plan all this stuff out--alliances, secret agreements, power-sharing agreements, post-war plans--little of that adds to the gaming experience.
it's enough that Cormyr has forged this alliance, that Netheril has executed Cormyran spies, and that Cormyr feels that the time is right for war.
the only thing i'd add to it, is that perhaps the spies were in some way connected to the PCs, that their executioner is a villain that they face down in the final confrontation, and maybe have some things leading up to the war--perhaps the PCs were supposed to have been a part of this spy ring, but just missed the rendevous because they were delayed in some adventure?
Well how I see it is, the spies could:
-be highly renown, and to see them suddenly dead would probably cause at least a stir within the Cormyrian population.
Spies can only be renowned in the upper echelons. That’s why they are “spies.” It’s a secret thing—Cormyrian’s at large would not know of them.
-have been executed at the precise time Cormyr's Foril died and, headless, a coalition of nobles declare war on Netheril;
I’d have to read more into that, but, from previous exposure to Cormyrian society, they would be more concerned with fighting among themselves for power than coming together for a common purpose that didn’t threaten them or their station.
Besides, as I continue to state, this is a war that supposedly involves more than two countries—what sways the others to join the Cormyrian cause?
What I thought was, because tensions are so damn high between Cormyr and Netheril, the boiling point would probably explode at the execution of spies. Why would they acknowledge the spies to be theirs? Well, perhaps the Cormyrians see this as a opportunity to annex more parts of Sembia after their shadowy governors executed the spies, thinking their backs would be covered from their allies.
I just don’t see this. Nothing personal, my man, but I find this naïve at best.
By all means though, present a more "realistic" starting scenario. I'm planning to do a "Northern War" campaign (again), and I could use constructive criticism to sharpen myself. However, what I don't really want is a WWI-like scenario (AKA the politics and military alliances are so criss-crossed and confusing that one wouldn't be surprised if a country declared war on itself). This is why I presented a simple scenario: execution of (well-known?) spies. By all means, present a better scenario if it helps me. (I'm not as lore-tuned as you guys, as I have not read any FR novels, another reason to help.)
Sorry, Butch—I think you have an excellent idea for a campaign. But such a thing is a complicated matter to me.
And trying to incorporate your PC’s into is even larger. I feel it needs to be plotted securely.
The reason I could see Najara side with Netheril is because their king might see profit from this. How? What if the Twelve Princes promised to help the serpent kingdom with gathering slaves from the surrounding country?
Possibly, but that is simply one.
Either way, shoot for it. Sounds great to me—just be sure you know the reasons when your PC’s start asking about the why’s and how’s.
he does not.
Yes, he does. At least to my mind.
If my DM suddenly just said “such and such is going to war,” then I would ask “Why?” And, while I could go along without an explanation for some time, I would need one eventually if it was the focus of a campaign.
As for the post, if his question is, “What if …,” then, yes, he needs more info.
His question should be “What happens when…,” to be more to the point. And, even then, he needs more specifics.
this is DnD, not a history class. as much as it's fun for DMs to wargame and plan all this stuff out--alliances, secret agreements, power-sharing agreements, post-war plans--little of that adds to the gaming experience.
I agree and disagree. As I stated to him, go with it.
I say do whatever you want in this game.
But have it make sense when you do.
Alliances, secret agreements, power-sharing, etc. can be very much a focal point in a campaign. In fact, I guess I am just blessed to have had those DM’s that found such things important.
it's enough that Cormyr has forged this alliance, that Netheril has executed Cormyran spies, and that Cormyr feels that the time is right for war.
I’m sorry, but I feel that is extremely short sighted.
To act upon such a thing would be foolish.
the only thing i'd add to it, is that perhaps the spies were in some way connected to the PCs, that their executioner is a villain that they face down in the final confrontation, and maybe have some things leading up to the war--perhaps the PCs were supposed to have been a part of this spy ring, but just missed the rendevous because they were delayed in some adventure?
Now, there you go. But, that only applies to the PC’s involvement. Not the war itself.
I’m sorry, but I feel that is extremely short sighted.
To act upon such a thing would be foolish.
not if the King Foril [?] thinks he can win.
if Team Good Guys believes that their alliance is more powerful than Netheril's, Cormyr may take advantage of the situation and attack. breaking the cormyran spy ring would simply be the provocation needed to begin the war. it need not be more complicated than that.
now, if a DM wishes, he can make things infinitely complicated... involving a dizzying array of factions, betrayal on betrayal on betrayal, ancient secrets that tangentially relate to the present, extra-planar invasions and needless tourism to the far corners of the world and beyond, overwrought NPC monologues, and boringness that protracts gameplay... but KISS* tends to work in DnD campaign plotting, imho.
*Keep It Simple Stupid
*Keep It Simple Stupid
And the stupid keep it simple.
It's called ignorance is bliss. Got ya.
I can appreciate the need/desire to lay a firm foundation for a plot, but that's no excuse to throw insults at others who are more free-form.
Let's just live and let live people and move this thread back on track.
::::::::
OK. As a DM I would be perfectly comfortable with Scrinoverlord's opening scenario. This is because it's not generally necessary to have a solid basis for a plot of this type down beforehand.
How you measure the amount of detail you need depends on the type of players you have, their characters (that is, do the characters have access to secret information and war plans for Cormyr?) and what motivates them.
What I've found when running wide ranging scenarios like this is that it's easier to have the framework of a metaplot in mind, then let the player's decision during play guide me on what holes I need to fill in.
It's never so simple as a player asking "Why?" and then the DM just giving up the whole story to him/her. Game doesn't work that way.
Instead, let the player's natural motiviation to uncover that "why" move the adventure along.
Note: All IMO and based off of my experiences as a DM. YMMV.
But enough of debating IF the war will work or not. What I would like now is to see who thinks WHO would win.
...I'm not aware of a war between Netheril and Cormyr. (Again, I am more of an Eberron fan than anything else). Can anyone provide more details on that?
I was looking at the Backdrop: Cormyr article by Brian R. James (Dragon #365, July 2008) and found something of interest.
The article states that in 1437 (Year of the Silent Flute) Crown Prince Emvar was slain in an ambush by Sembian forces. Then, in less than a month’s time, Queen Jemra was slain by assassins targeting the King. Then the article states that, “Waves of mourning and calls for decisive action against Netheril and Sembia swept Cormyr.”
That wording is worth taking a look at because although Sembian forces were known to have slain the Crown Prince, the calls for action were not limited to just Sembia. The people of Cormyr saw Netheril as responsible.
By The Year of the Silent Tear (1439) open hostilities between Sembia and Cormyr led to full scale war.
My thought is this: What if you were to replace your high profile spies with one or more Cormyrian dignitaries of note? Perhaps one or two well-liked nobles popular with the people and close friends of King Foril? Maybe these were men who Foril became close friends with during his own pursuit of diplomacy as a youth, that later stood by their King’s side as Queen Jemra lay dying the King’s arms, and later distinguished themselves both in battle against Sembia and for their work in bringing hostilities to an end by the forging of the Treaty of Griffonfang Bridge?
If these men were on a diplomatic mission to Netheril and then “discovered” to be spies and then executed, then I think it’s entirely plausible Cormyr could go on a tear against Netheril.
You could opt to portray King Foril as a man who’s held a deep pain in his heart at the loss of his true love at the hands of Sembian agents some forty winters past. Perhaps through his advanced age and the prodding of opportunistic advisers, he’s made to be convinced war with Netheril is the only proper response to the slaying of two of his most trusted confidants and close friends.
:::::::::::::::::
EDIT: As I was writing this, I see you’ve called for an end to the “would it work” debate and made a request to see who we think would win.
OK then. My answer is that I think -baring any changes in story based on your players and their character’s actions- that Cormyr would gain a larger control of Sembia, but would ultimately cease hostilities based on pressure from Cormanthor and the Dalelands to stop the conflict.
This campaign would mark the last efforts by Foril to lead his people and would lead to the call for his son Irvel to claim the throne. I’d figure it’d be at about this same time that Irvel’s cousin Erzoured would throw his lot in with Netheril and Sembia (he’s a black hearted schemer, we’re told).
Personally, I think it’d be cool if Erzoured switched sides and then was proclaimed “the One True King” of all Sembia and Cormyr by The Shades. That’d be a hoot.
...I'm not aware of a war between Netheril and Cormyr. (Again, I am more of an Eberron fan than anything else). Can anyone provide more details on that?
-When the City of Shade first returned to the Material Plane, in 1,372 DR, they engaged in a multifront war with Evereska, the Phaerimm, and Cormyr. Some of the mentioned factions began as allies, or neutral parties, but with the Shadovar being who they are, the alliances crumbled, or the neutral parties had reason to consider the City of Shade their enemy. All in all, concerning the City of Shade and Cormyr, the major impact this had on the two was the destruction of Tilverton. A review of the conflict with specific dates can be found in Player's Guide to Faerûn.
Now as to who would win, it will obviously vary from campaign to campaign. In my campaign for instance I lean towards Cormyr and its allies winning, however it could easily be a draw. Everything my players do will ultimately have an effect on the final outcome of the conflict. As long as I keep this draw in mind as we progress, I will have a constant balance of power in mind, and if the players completely screw up well Netheril will grow in power.
Ultimately the reason I used this conflict as a basis for a campaign is that I never liked Sembia coming under the thumb of Netheril, neither do I like it being a client state of Cormyr. This offers my players the opportunity to delve into a wide variety of adventures, and roleplaying styles throughout the game, without it ever bogging down in any one type of adventure. In the end who wins should be heavily influenced by your players, and how your campaign unfolds unless you specifically want to go for a much darker mood, and their doom is ordained.
In 1372, yes, Netheril was not defeated as such. But if Cormyr could wear them down then, then they are in trouble, because 1372 is basically Cormyr's weakest point, still recovering from Azoun's death and the whole war associated with it. Basically Cormyr is able to walk out of one hugely destructive nationwide conflict, and despite being allegedly very short on people and needing lots of resources to try to weed out the orcs from the local forests, is able to take on the whole front of Netheril's army and survive - they even managed to move the population of Tilverton before it was too late, IIRC.
In the meantime, yes Netheril has had lots of time to build support and obviously has taken over Sembia, but Cormyr has basically had the best century out of anybody in the region. Not only that, but they've already sucessfully shut down Netherese expansion in Western Sembia. There are a lot of independent cities in the region which are strongly anti-kingdom of any kind, and so resist Cormyr's influence, but given that the purple dragons are trusted enough to keep the peace in some of them without taking over, I think it's pretty safe to bet that as soon as the Shades start blowing stuff up and doing anything blatantly dangerous, those cities are going to come running to Cormyr's side. And I'd bet that having half of Sembia suddenly in an alliance with the enemy would give the resistance in the rest of the cities a huge shot in the arm. Sakkors would barely be able to bring the fight to Cormyr because it'd have to spend so much time putting down rebellions.
As I said, I don't think that Cormyr would want to start such a conflict because they don't want the Shades to blow up any more cities. But there is a very strong chance that they would totally dismantle the Netherese empire if they became involved in one, even if they can't take out the flying cities themselves.
Scrinoverlord,
I was looking at the Backdrop: Cormyr article by Brian R. James (Dragon #365, July 2008) and found something of interest.
The article states that in 1437 (Year of the Silent Flute) Crown Prince Emvar was slain in an ambush by Sembian forces. Then, in less than a month’s time, Queen Jemra was slain by assassins targeting the King. Then the article states that, “Waves of mourning and calls for decisive action against Netheril and Sembia swept Cormyr.”
That wording is worth taking a look at because although Sembian forces were known to have slain the Crown Prince, the calls for action were not limited to just Sembia. The people of Cormyr saw Netheril as responsible.
By The Year of the Silent Tear (1439) open hostilities between Sembia and Cormyr led to full scale war.
My thought is this: What if you were to replace your high profile spies with one or more Cormyrian dignitaries of note? Perhaps one or two well-liked nobles popular with the people and close friends of King Foril? Maybe these were men who Foril became close friends with during his own pursuit of diplomacy as a youth, that later stood by their King’s side as Queen Jemra lay dying the King’s arms, and later distinguished themselves both in battle against Sembia and for their work in bringing hostilities to an end by the forging of the Treaty of Griffonfang Bridge?
If these men were on a diplomatic mission to Netheril and then “discovered” to be spies and then executed, then I think it’s entirely plausible Cormyr could go on a tear against Netheril.
You could opt to portray King Foril as a man who’s held a deep pain in his heart at the loss of his true love at the hands of Sembian agents some forty winters past. Perhaps through his advanced age and the prodding of opportunistic advisers, he’s made to be convinced war with Netheril is the only proper response to the slaying of two of his most trusted confidants and close friends.
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EDIT: As I was writing this, I see you’ve called for an end to the “would it work” debate and made a request to see who we think would win.
OK then. My answer is that I think -baring any changes in story based on your players and their character’s actions- that Cormyr would gain a larger control of Sembia, but would ultimately cease hostilities based on pressure from Cormanthor and the Dalelands to stop the conflict.
This campaign would mark the last efforts by Foril to lead his people and would lead to the call for his son Irvel to claim the throne. I’d figure it’d be at about this same time that Irvel’s cousin Erzoured would throw his lot in with Netheril and Sembia (he’s a black hearted schemer, we’re told).
Personally, I think it’d be cool if Erzoured switched sides and then was proclaimed “the One True King” of all Sembia and Cormyr by The Shades. That’d be a hoot.
Actually, that sounds like a more "realistic" idea for a cause of war. I think I'll side with that instead. Thanks :D
In my campaign, I'm for neither side. I let the PCs choose who they owe their allegiance to. In the game, they're all mercenaries, so they can side with either Netheril and its allies or Cormyr and its allies, or a little bit of both. (Or, they side with their gold.)
Um...because a cold war is currently brewing between the two coalitions...
What coalitions? Just because a bunch of nations are good (or evil) doesn't mean they have an implied alliance with each other. And more importantly, I haven't heard that this particular setup is in fact the case with the new Realms, which is supposed to be "points of light" anyway, right?
Therefore, this threads seems to me like yet another variation on the old "X vs. Y" theme (Elminster vs. Drizzt, etc.), where a question is asked that has so many variables that it is impossible to come to a conclusion.
PS: You do realize that some of the Dalelands--an area you mentioned as being on the "good" side--are actually under the control of Netheril/Sembia?
What coalitions?
-Scrinoverlord laid them out in his old thread.
In my campaign, I'm for neither side. I let the PCs choose who they owe their allegiance to. In the game, they're all mercenaries, so they can side with either Netheril and its allies or Cormyr and its allies, or a little bit of both. (Or, they side with their gold.)
Dude that's golden.
I really like adventures that let the player characters be the ones to tip the scales one way or the other.
What coalitions? Just because a bunch of nations are good (or evil) doesn't mean they have an implied alliance with each other. And more importantly, I haven't heard that this particular setup is in fact the case with the new Realms, which is supposed to be "points of light" anyway, right?
Therefore, this threads seems to me like yet another variation on the old "X vs. Y" theme (Elminster vs. Drizzt, etc.), where a question is asked that has so many variables that it is impossible to come to a conclusion.
PS: You do realize that some of the Dalelands--an area you mentioned as being on the "good" side--are actually under the control of Netheril/Sembia?
Yes. Tassledale, Featherdale, and Scardale are under Sembian control. Tarkhkaldale is a Netherese dale.
And last I checked, in the FRCS, it states that Evereska, Cormanthor, Cormyr and the Dalelands are close allies. If Cormyr went to war, what stops the others from joining it?
Yes. Tassledale, Featherdale, and Scardale are under Sembian control. Tarkhkaldale is a Netherese dale.
And last I checked, in the FRCS, it states that Evereska, Cormanthor, Cormyr and the Dalelands are close allies. If Cormyr went to war, what stops the others from joining it?
I think that they would join Cormyr. They wouldn't want the Netherese to defeat the most powerful member of their alliance while they sat on their hands.
Netheril, for its part, would want to prevent the other powers from joining Cormyr. The Najarans might be helpful in attacking Evereska and keeping them busy, while mercenaries from the Moonsea might be employed against the Dales.
As for the course of the war, it could be a long or a short struggle, depending on your overall campaign needs/design. My own take on it would be that the "Silver League" would defeat Sembia and overthrow Shadover rule there. With that defeat, the various Dales would be liberated, and perhaps Moondale re-established. Sembia might be broken up into independent city-states, or maybe that villainous nephew of King Foril's set on the throne.
Netheril proper would probably sue for peace after the defeat in Sembia was finalized, but would be in no danger itself.
There's lots of chances for some really exciting adventures here, particularly on Cormyr's side: infiltrating Sharran temples, raiding flying fortresses, traveling across Anauroch, etc..
Ease up, Dookie.
Was I harsh?
Shucks—I thought that was polite. Obviously, you haven’t been around or paying attention.
I can appreciate the need/desire to lay a firm foundation for a plot, but that's no excuse to throw insults at others who are more free-form.
Don’t give me CENSORED about “free-form,” as we were agreeing on the same topic in another thread.
now, if a DM wishes, he can make things infinitely complicated... involving a dizzying array of factions, betrayal on betrayal on betrayal, ancient secrets that tangentially relate to the present, extra-planar invasions and needless tourism to the far corners of the world and beyond, overwrought NPC monologues, and boringness that protracts gameplay... but KISS* tends to work in DnD campaign plotting, imho.
*Keep It Simple Stupid
This is insulting. And just because you can’t see it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
I was simply countering his with one that was a bit blunter.
But enough of debating IF the war will work or not. What I would like now is to see who thinks WHO would win.
The Shade. Which is why you don't go to war with them without a reason.
This is insulting. And just because you can’t see it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
I didn't mean to be insulting, and I'm sorry you took it that way.
The Shade. Which is why you don't go to war with them without a reason.
why do you think Netheril would win? Cormyr defeated them--twice--and is now as strong as it ever has been.
Further, its allies in Evereska and Myth Drannor are growing, becoming more formidable...and then there are the Zhentarim, who have nothing but hatred for the Netherese and might be able to open up a southern front/insurrection against the common enemy (although the Zhents are far gone from their prime...)
The Shades are strong, though, and it wouldn't be outside of the realm of possibility for them to win a war against this coalition if that's what a DM wants for his campaign world.
And last I checked, in the FRCS, it states that Evereska, Cormanthor, Cormyr and the Dalelands are close allies. If Cormyr went to war, what stops the others from joining it?
About the only thing I could see getting in the way of an alliance moving forward is the long memories of the Elves and Half-Elves of Cormanthor.
While there’ve been about two generations born in Cormyr since the last war ended, the same is not true for the elves of Cormanthor. I’d expect them to remember quite well the costs of the last war, as well as the one before it to reclaim Myth Drannor.
If there’s no immediate threat to the elves, I could see them take the stance that it’s not worth it to invite conflict again to their lands after all the centuries of war and folly that have surrounded Myth Drannor over time.
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Howdy JD,
Shucks—I thought that was polite. Obviously, you haven’t been around or paying attention.
Been around from the get-go. You opted to play ***-for-tat and turn up the heat, then I asked you (far more politely) to knock it off.
Just doesn’t seem there’s a need for the kind of heat you’re looking to bring to this conversation, is all.
Don’t give me CENSORED about “free-form,” as we were agreeing on the same topic in another thread.
You must be mistaken. I don’t think I ever agreed with the idea that a firm plot foundation is required for the sort of scenario the OP was talking about.
http://forums.gleemax.com/community_coc.php
I didn't mean to be insulting, and I'm sorry you took it that way.
If you weren’t, then I believe you were pushing the boundaries. I think we both went back and forth enough to wonder if the other was just being a dick.
It is what it is. That wasn’t mine, and I’ll take your word that it wasn’t yours.
Though, I am not sure I believe it. ;)
It’s squashed though—let’s move on, shall we?
why do you think Netheril would win? Cormyr defeated them--twice--and is now as strong as it ever has been.
I would ask the source(s) for this before anything.
Howdy JD,
Hola, Mr. M! :D
Been around from the get-go. You opted to play ***-for-tat and turn up the heat up…
No. I held my tongue, then jumped into the waters to test things when I though it might be getting to deep.
…then I asked you (far more politely) to knock it off.
No.
You scolded, like a self superior….hmmm…whatchymacallit?
I’m not one to be spoken to as a child, nor am I much for authority.
Speak to me politely and without self assumed authority, then I will listen to you.
You must be mistaken. I don’t think I ever agreed with the idea that a firm plot foundation is required for the sort of scenario the OP was talking about.
And I wasn’t speaking of this at all.
As I said, another thread. And the point was what you called “free-form.”
I would ask the source(s) for this before anything.
the 4E campaign setting. pg. 176
and earlier before the spellplague
If you can swing it, some mage's L30 Epic Outcome would be to force the City of Shade back into the Shadowfell for keeps. Still a necessary ingredient: Paragon-to-Epic characters who can take down Shade and/or Sakkors and ground them for a good long while.
Netherese counter-tactic: Myth Drannor is still afraid of what is in its own basement (for good reason). If the shades are feeling overconfident, they might send trouble-makers - good old-fashioned adventurers, nothing sinister here - to mess with and/or open as many locked portals as possible.
My personal preference in background writing: Netheril Restored is a political - but not Shar-religious - empire. The lure of high magic and the heritage of overweening hubris are adequate metaplot hooks without any extra luggage.
the 4E campaign setting. pg. 176
Read it. What am I missing? I see nothing of the such.
Read it. What am I missing? I see nothing of the such.
it clearly says that despite shade assisted defenses, the cormyrans beat Sembia.
it clearly says that despite shade assisted defenses, the cormyrans beat Sembia.
Bucktooth Bejebuz, where!!!?
I just read pg. 176 & 177 line by line--again--and see nothing "clearly" stated.
Is it written in invisible ink? Do I need a black light to read it?
Is it written in invisible ink? Do I need a black light to read it?
-These are Shadovar and Shar that we're discussing here, so I wouldn't be surprised...Just like the Shadow Weave was the Weave between the Weave, the Shadow Realms are the Realms between the words...
Myrtl! Can I get a CENSORED taco already!!!
Bucktooth Bejebuz, where!!!?
I just read pg. 176 & 177 line by line--again--and see nothing "clearly" stated.
Is it written in invisible ink? Do I need a black light to read it?
if you refuse to read, i can't help you.
if you refuse to read, i can't help you.
Are we coming full circle here?
As stated, I have read it twice already--not just pg. 176, but 177 as well, just to make sure something wasn't being overlapped. I have read nothing that suggests anything you have said.
Now, if you would like to point out the subheading where the aforementioned information actually exists, then I will be more than happy to go back and read again. And, if I do find it, then I will return and say that you are correct.
But, at this point, I can only assume that you read something vague (which we know 4e is great at) and expanded it in your own perceptions to fit the argument at hand.
Sorry, Butch.
"After winning its war against Sembia forty years ago, Cormyr insisted that [Urmlaspyr and Daerlun] remain neutral."
"Shadovar magic has raised 500-foot-high walls of magically hardened obsidian around the city, the tallest curtain wall on Toril. Despite this impressive defense, Sembian control of Daerlun faltered in the face of clever Cormyrian strategems forty years ago."
1. Daerlun, at least, had defenses provided by the shades.
2. Cormyr beat Sembia in a war despite this.
3. This took place about forty years ago.
Geeze guys. It's like you all just love to fight each other this week even when it's over the silliest things.
"After winning its war against Sembia forty years ago, Cormyr insisted that [Urmlaspyr and Daerlun] remain neutral."
"Shadovar magic has raised 500-foot-high walls of magically hardened obsidian around the city, the tallest curtain wall on Toril. Despite this impressive defense, Sembian control of Daerlun faltered in the face of clever Cormyrian strategems forty years ago."
1. Daerlun, at least, had defenses provided by the shades.
2. Cormyr beat Sembia in a war despite this.
3. This took place about forty years ago.
Sweet, Bejebuz!
I can see you ORCS ripping out what you consider off-topic and offensive, but this was a valid and polite point!!
Gugh!
Ger!
Paht!
Anyway, what you say is not stated, my man. You are either mixing sources or are doing what I said Yakman was doing earlier.
But, personally, I'm not sure if that post even exists anymore.
EDIT: It does! Thanks ORCS!!
ORCS!!
The unknown factor could swing it either way. Like The silver alliance conqouring Shade only for the People of Shade to take over the Dales. The most powerful random factor are your heroes and/or villains.
And I don't do happy!!
Are you telling me that Mexico could take out the U.S. of CENSORED A. based on your measures?
That's CENSORED happy talk.
And I don't do happy!!
Are you telling me that Mexico could take out the U.S. of CENSORED A. based on your measures?
I think Mexico is perfectly capable of taking out the U.S. See, once enough Mexicans are in the U.S., then Mexico shall para-drop Special Forces Commandos into Washington D.C. and bribe all of Congress, the President, and every other governmental official with hot, toasty Mexican food. Meanwhile, the Mexican immigrants would rise up and storm local stores for absolutely no reason at all.
See? Brilliant.
But...er, yeah. To stay on-topic, I actually do remember seeing those two statements in the FRCG. But winning a war 40 years ago doesn't mean it can win again. A lot of factors can certainly influence one faction over the other.
I think Mexico is perfectly capable of taking out the U.S. See, once enough Mexicans are in the U.S., then Mexico shall para-drop Special Forces Commandos into Washington D.C. and bribe all of Congress, the President, and every other governmental official with hot, toasty Mexican food. Meanwhile, the Mexican immigrants would rise up and storm local stores for absolutely no reason at all.
See? Brilliant.
You been speaking to Bejebuz without my permission?!
But...er, yeah. To stay on-topic, I actually do remember seeing those two statements in the FRCG. But winning a war 40 years ago doesn't mean it can win again. A lot of factors can certainly influence one faction over the other.
I see no war with Sembia mentioned. As far as stated, they are contesting border cities.
And, if they succeeded, why the hell aren't they occupying them?