But what I positively miss are all those old gods, and sorry but those "new" gods are speak not to me at all. There are so many missing divine aspects which are just not really covered, and many cool and interesting gods are gone or absorbed. In this case WotC just did a bad job IMO. Here are some highlights of gods I really want to see back:
- Lathander: Sorry but Amanauthor just doesn't do. I liked the positive attitude of the Morninglord way more than the stern lawful Sun God we have now. Lathander had something youthful, optimistic, and not the aspect of a supreme judge.
- Mask: Where is the god of thieves? How can a world live without a trickster god of thieves??
- Helm & Tyr: I just don't feel with Torm. Again, Helm and Tyr were gods I could "feel", who felt kinda inspiring, but Torm, I connect nothing with him. Watchful Helm and honorable Tyr just were cool gods.
- Ellistrae: I am just profoundly shocked over her death. For me as a good-Drow-fan, Ellistrae was always of the greatest importance, and no Corellian just does NOT do! He was the one who curses the Drow and now the good Darkelves are under his domain? NO FRIGGING WAY.
- Mystra: Last but not least. Yes it makes the sense of the Spellplague, but for me Mystra was always some sort of benevolent goddess of pulling strings, with Mystras chosen who helped the good cause of the Realms. Via Elminster and others. Now Elminster is mad, Khelban is dead and the Chosen of Mystra are all but faded away. Even if Mystra returning would not have the same power over magic as before, maybe more a goddess of "heroes" and "civilization" or so.
I miss these gods. And yes you can say, we can make our own setting where they still live, you just get it pushed into your face in any official material that they don't. I prefer the official settings and seriously request WotC to bring them back. I always felt that too much god-dying never was a good thing, and IMO one of the weak spots of D&D. I kinda prefer my gods to be... well gods. Who just stay in power. Maybe kill one or two over a LONG period of time as some sort of exciting story, yes, but this is way too much.
No, elven high magic and Corellon having to go along with the will of his followers was what cursed the drow, and he hasn't been depicted as particularly hating them since, Demihuman Deities for example notes that there are a few drow in his clergy. So yes, Corellon taking care of the good drow makes perfect sense and is as it should have been all along. Eilistraee was a pointless failure of a goddess that did nothing to get the good drow to actually be elves and just let the matriarchy continue. Glad she's gone.
I'd be annoyed that you forgot Vhaeraun, but I maintain that he isn't dead anyway. You did forget Selvetarm and Kiaransalee though.
I'm annoyed that Rilifane Rallathil is STILL missing. They haven't said he's dead to my knowledge, but they haven't said anything about him being alive either.
But yeah, the whole 'People are too stupid to deal with more than three gods, let's kill a bunch of them' annoys the hell out of me.
sneaking back in the past, he hides 4 enclaves and later warns HAlruua to hide and where.
Halruua wasn't destroyed, they got out of the place 8 months before the plague and now live within it inhabiting 4 netherese enclaves.
4 enclaves of Halruuans verses two enclaves of shade....
and Eilistraee isn't dead, she just gave up her divinity and they key word in that book is Feigned death.
I ne'er liked Tyr or Torm so.....
oh wait, this is fan ficed......
its your realms, if you want Helm back, than Helm never died.
In my realms, the Crown Wars never happened and the elves still rule Faerun.
I'd need to *have* a Realms first, but.
I say get rid of them all, make the designers kill something else for once...;)
Also Brandobaris, Erevan, and Baravar are still very much alive.
I plan, at some point, to run 1E's classic D1-D3/Q1 series as part of campaign to see Eilistraee returned and Lolth (possibly) slain (with Shar potentially taking up the slack... or Graz'zt). (And, IMC, Eilistraee is the Maiden of the Moon in the Feywild: an archfey but no longer a deity.)
In a similar way, why not have a campaign to "off" Amaunator? I've always viewed Amaunator as a closet tyrant. Maybe this side of his nature becomes more pronounced and your campaign becomes about finding a way to restore Lathander so the tyrant part of his nature dies.
(All that said, I am also thinking about going back to the FR of 1372 DR with the multitude of deities and maps that do not suck. In the meantime, I'm getting some value out of the 4E setting while I get a solid handle on the rules.)
Taco?
-Cal
You know, recently reading into 4e Faerun I am by and large positvely excited. Even tho many destroyed realms to the south are kinda sad, I knew them only barely, sticking mostly to computer games until recently.
But what I positively miss are all those old gods, and sorry but those "new" gods are speak not to me at all. There are so many missing divine aspects which are just not really covered, and many cool and interesting gods are gone or absorbed. In this case WotC just did a bad job IMO. Here are some highlights of gods I really want to see back:
- Lathander: Sorry but Amanauthor just doesn't do. I liked the positive attitude of the Morninglord way more than the stern lawful Sun God we have now. Lathander had something youthful, optimistic, and not the aspect of a supreme judge.
- Mask: Where is the god of thieves? How can a world live without a trickster god of thieves??
- Helm & Tyr: I just don't feel with Torm. Again, Helm and Tyr were gods I could "feel", who felt kinda inspiring, but Torm, I connect nothing with him. Watchful Helm and honorable Tyr just were cool gods.
- Ellistrae: I am just profoundly shocked over her death. For me as a good-Drow-fan, Ellistrae was always of the greatest importance, and no Corellian just does NOT do! He was the one who curses the Drow and now the good Darkelves are under his domain? NO FRIGGING WAY.
- Mystra: Last but not least. Yes it makes the sense of the Spellplague, but for me Mystra was always some sort of benevolent goddess of pulling strings, with Mystras chosen who helped the good cause of the Realms. Via Elminster and others. Now Elminster is mad, Khelban is dead and the Chosen of Mystra are all but faded away. Even if Mystra returning would not have the same power over magic as before, maybe more a goddess of "heroes" and "civilization" or so.
I miss these gods. And yes you can say, we can make our own setting where they still live, you just get it pushed into your face in any official material that they don't. I prefer the official settings and seriously request WotC to bring them back. I always felt that too much god-dying never was a good thing, and IMO one of the weak spots of D&D. I kinda prefer my gods to be... well gods. Who just stay in power. Maybe kill one or two over a LONG period of time as some sort of exciting story, yes, but this is way too much.
The last paragraph is the problem. Nothing is stopping you from bringing them back if it suits the needs of your campaign. I don't view FR lore as set in stone, and I usually have to remind PCs familiar with the setting that it's ultimately the DM's world.
Imruphel...you are--by far--the epitomy of all that is right and wrong with FR these days.
Taco?
Thank you... I think. ;)
When they are strongly story-driven they are acceptable and even fun, since they lead to more potential storyline ideas. Helm killed by Tyr who after commits suicide out of guilt is great, the whole "Lathander thing", bearing some kind of Aumaunator seed that comes back to his true identity was suggested in late 3.5ed material and was creative...
What I consider to be an ugly work, is what WotC has done to a lot of "lesser" deities. I had an half acquatic elf once who worshipped Eldath. Dead. Better, wiped out. As all the others you mentioned before.
And, the one that bothers me most, Mystra. Shar wanted her dead, as well as Cyric, everyone in the multiverse knew that. The end seemed almost obvious. But it's obvious as well that the purpose of her death was to re-shape the world to fit the new 4th edition rule's set, and not the other way around.
WotC is a company which does business in order to earn money, I get that. They establish what kind of product has to be sold to maximize the money, I get that too.
But to have a new set of rules made for teenagers kill a Deity and emasculate an entire realm, obliterating meanwhile the concept of "Wizard" born long ago with D&D... THIS is really crappy...
She is no longer a deity though. Those who 'worship' her are now likely primal characters, or receive any divine powers from another deity.
Gomez
DDI FR article on the realm of Sarifal in the Moonshaes.
A little more at length (& in my own words):
Eldath is considered a primal spirit of Toril in 4e mechanical terminology, as is Nobanion. Lurue is considered an archfey tied to the feywild (as some hope or suspect Eilistraee has become). This can have as much or as little effect on your game as you like.
Source is the Realmslore: Sarifal article on the Moonshaes.
"Oft featured in song, Myrloch is a large
freshwater lake; its 800 square miles are deep, cold,
and clear. ...man-made islands on the loch, called
crannógs. ...these small islands
served as shrines to the lake spirit Eldath. A hand-
ful of crannóg remain today, preserved by nereids in
service to Sarifal."
The entire thread:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
OP:
There are so many missing divine aspects which are just not really covered, and many cool and interesting gods are gone or absorbed.
The examples above of deities being reinterpreted as different types of entities sets a certain amount of precedent for similar treatment of other unmetioned deities. And....If you are wanting to follow canon, technically it says many gods are "dead, gone, or missing"...which means your answering of the questions on your own is practically written into canon itself. None of that will necessarily make you feel better, especially where your favorites are called out as dead and you don't want to change that, but just pointing it out for the possible benefit of the "canonical equations" part of the brain.
As for the others, I really, really hate Torm. Switch Helm and Torm in that whole thing, and I'd be fine. :P
And I still want an article with info about Shaundakul. Even if he's just an archfey who watches over Myth Drannor or some such.
I'm expecting Mask's return in Kemp's upcoming trilogy, so I'm not worried there.
I agree with that completely.
I do not miss mystra at all - maybe I just have "Chosen Overload". I like the new darker Realms. Don't need super heroes running around all over the place.
Anyway, it is your game - bring them all back!
Or wait for teh 5th edition when Mystra is back!!
I'm expecting Mask's return in Kemp's upcoming trilogy, so I'm not worried there.
As for the others, I really, really hate Torm. Switch Helm and Torm in that whole thing, and I'd be fine. :P
And I still want an article with info about Shaundakul. Even if he's just an archfey who watches over Myth Drannor or some such.
Isn't there that tripartite diety theory/blasphemy where the three gods of justice and protection stuff were rumored to be one (Tyr/Helm/Torm)?? That could be tapped into. Yeah, I was also a bit surprised that it was Torm who was left standing. Hrmph. But I guess they needed a do-goody paladin god....no wait, they kept Bahamut too. Hehe. (No offense to Tormites. In fact, here's a piece of wood. It's on me.
)As for Shaundakul as an archfey...watching over Myth Drannor even.....I was thinking something along those lines in regards to helping integrate non-elves into Corellon's church. If Corellon was the one who saved Shaundakul during/after the spellplague and helped him become an archfey it could be highly symbolic among mortals of his acknowledgment/reaching out to non-elves.
I'm expecting Mask's return in Kemp's upcoming trilogy, so I'm not worried there.
As for the others, I really, really hate Torm. Switch Helm and Torm in that whole thing, and I'd be fine. :P
And I still want an article with info about Shaundakul. Even if he's just an archfey who watches over Myth Drannor or some such.
Isn't there that tripartite diety theory/blasphemy where the three gods of justice and protection stuff were rumored to be one (Tyr/Helm/Torm)?? That could be tapped into. Yeah, I was also a bit surprised that it was Torm who was left standing. Hrmph. But I guess they needed a do-goody paladin god....no wait, they kept Bahamut too. Hehe. (No offense to Tormites. In fact, here's a piece of wood. It's on me.
As for Shaundakul as an archfey...watching over Myth Drannor even.....I was thinking something along those lines in regards to helping integrate non-elves into Corellon's church. If Corellon was the one who saved Shaundakul during/after the spellplague and helped him become an archfey it could be highly symbolic among mortals of his acknowledgment/reaching out to non-elves.
The three gods thing is from an article by Eric Scott De Bie, if that helps. Don't remember the name of the article off the top of my head, but it's quite a good read.
We need an article for characters to be able to worship archfey in a manner similar to gods.
Dragonlance was an easy world to run (albeit boring). Why did the Realms gain popularity over the years? It wasn't because it had too many deities. Dungeon Masters have, and always will have, the ability to make the gods as important or uninvolved as they wish in their campaigns.
I started playing D&D when the 1E/2E switch was underway, and I found nothing complex at all about the deities. My first character ever was a priest, and the most challenging thing I had to learn was to which spheres a deity granted access. Whether or not a deity/demigod was an aspect of a greater power never bothered me as a player, or as a DM. If a player wanted to play a PC who worshipped one of the gods, I could accommodate that. To me, the "restrictions" placed on players with certain deities made character development more rich. One of my best players had great fun trying to play a character who worshipped Eldath. Being so non-violent that you use a net as your primary weapon was challenging. Lecturing others to "try not to hurt the goblins too much" got everybody laughing (including this DM) but he played that character to the hilt. Some people played a fighter that didn't really worship any god, and they usually picked Tempus as their patron deity. They just tossed a copper piece in his temples whenever they happened upon one, and that was the extent of their involvement with the gods.
The problem with 4E is that the removed the choices from the books, and more importantly, from the characters. Yes, we can (and my group does) use the 3E books extensively.
For those who are interested, in Ed Greenwood's personal campaign (he created the FR setting for those who don't know) he hasn't even reached the Time of Troubles yet.
One thing seems clear: the Realms cannot exist as the Realms without Mystra and the Weave. You're creating a totally different game and calling it "Forgotten Realms" to get people to buy it. Tossing in a few names that people know doesn't make it the Realms. WoTC may own the legal rights to what is or is not published under the D&D brand, but I'm not wasting any money on another set of books that ruin a campaign setting both me and my players have loved for over two decades.
All of that aside: switching to 4E requires you to jump your campaign ahead 100 years... that doesn't bode well for any of your characters who happen to be playing humans. The switch to 2E made characters choose between sticking with worshipping Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul or switching to Cyric. For people to whom this was an important choice, it had ramifications. For most players, they didn't care that any gods had died; especially not evil ones. 3E brought in Kelemvor, and another choice was required. These important (yet small) changes made the Realms grow, but in a way that could be incorporated into a campaign slowly, and without a lot of impact on the stories and adventures being run. I felt the editors carefully sculpted and created a newer, better Realms.
The fourth edition was done by a blind, deaf, one-armed, one-legged man with a machete, and what was left was offered up as "here you go. Welcome to the new Forgotten Realms."
For my part, my campaign will never reach the Spellplague. For those who choose to embrace it, great. But I'm not letting WoTC rain on my parade.
And frankly, I don't think it's "fixable" at this point unless they say this 4E Realms thing never happened (and that's not at all likely). So I have to be content with the things I did like about 1E, 2E and 3E.
It's unfortunate, but thems the breaks.
At this point, it's been quite a while since the 4E Realms changes were put in place. For those of us who don't recognize the Realms in this new form, there are choices. The biggest one is this: if you don't like the changes, don't buy it. I bought the 4E FRCG and was so dissatisfied that I eventually returned it to the store.
And frankly, I don't think it's "fixable" at this point unless they say this 4E Realms thing never happened (and that's not at all likely). So I have to be content with the things I did like about 1E, 2E and 3E.
It's unfortunate, but thems the breaks.
100% Agreed.
This. Although I still refuse to admit that Vhaeraun is dead, even in 4E FR. :P He's just waiting.
That's the spirit! (no pun intended)
One thing seems clear: the Realms cannot exist as the Realms without Mystra and the Weave. You're creating a totally different game and calling it "Forgotten Realms" to get people to buy it. Tossing in a few names that people know doesn't make it the Realms. WoTC may own the legal rights to what is or is not published under the D&D brand, but I'm not wasting any money on another set of books that ruin a campaign setting both me and my players have loved for over two decades
One thing Ed Greenwood's always been clear on is that it has always been completely possible that everything anyone "knows" about the gods could be completely wrong. Ed has dropped hints in his own campaign for years that all the gods are just aspects of a single supreme being, along with several other possibilities. Ed did this to avoid offending anyone's religious sensibilities as well as to allow for changes. Mostly its been used since 4e as a way to say "Mystra isn't really dead".
For me, I like to use it as a way to say the Mystra and the weave business never actually applied. That was what Mystra told people was going on, and people bought it.
One thing seems clear: the Realms cannot exist as the Realms without Mystra and the Weave. You're creating a totally different game and calling it "Forgotten Realms" to get people to buy it. Tossing in a few names that people know doesn't make it the Realms. WoTC may own the legal rights to what is or is not published under the D&D brand, but I'm not wasting any money on another set of books that ruin a campaign setting both me and my players have loved for over two decades
One thing Ed Greenwood's always been clear on is that it has always been completely possible that everything anyone "knows" about the gods could be completely wrong. Ed has dropped hints in his own campaign for years that all the gods are just aspects of a single supreme being, along with several other possibilities. Ed did this to avoid offending anyone's religious sensibilities as well as to allow for changes. Mostly its been used since 4e as a way to say "Mystra isn't really dead".
For me, I like to use it as a way to say the Mystra and the weave business never actually applied. That was what Mystra told people was going on, and people bought it.
Interesting, because that doesn't seem to go with what I read in a response from Ed on the Candlekeep forums from several years ago. I'll have to find the link and post it.
I wonder wehther what Ed thinks and what the WotC design team thinks are the same thing.
Just look at how elminster is presnted in the 4th ed FRCG, and then how he is presnted in the novel (ok, I only read teh first chapter, I am waiting for the soft cover before I really read it), and the messages in that same novel vs. the continuing claim by WotC that Mystra is really, really, very dead (something I myself actually had stated in one RPGA adventure, so pot/kettle, etc).
Anyway, I have been told repeatedly that they won't bring back dead gods. I know that the unspoken second sentence is 'until we change our mind'. And, in the end, I did break that rule (if only because RPGA adventures are no longer 'canon').
But I'll be sure to talk to some people at Gencon this august (I'm going, woot!).
Gomez
Ed is too professional to answer such questions other than in the most polite and evasive way.
I am just musing.
Gomez
Just a suggestion.
Because for serious: Helm.
Downshadow alone made Matt James (something of a Helm fan) run screaming around the hotel at GenCon when he read it.
I'm eagerly anticipating his reaction to the next novel (conveniently entitled Shadowbane). It's a whole thing.
Cheers
By Helm its out??
September, good sir. September.
Though knowing me, there will of course be lots of teasers and tie-ins and stuff to tease your appetite before the book itself is available.
Cheers
By Helm its out??
September, good sir. September.
Though knowing me, there will of course be lots of teasers and tie-ins and stuff to tease your appetite before the book itself is available.
Cheers
Neverwinter is coming out sooner, in August right? Shouldnt we be gettin some teasers for that one? ANything you can share? Will it have Essential style builds for the Swordmage? Perhaps some Themes? Im really hopin for some Realms specific Themes, and a cool fold out map of the city and its environs, well!?
I hope/suspect you'll really like new class, as well. One word: Bladesinger.
Cheers
now if it has a write up for Helm in it...
(sorry ERik, I couldnt resist the long long long long part, it was bugs bunny momment)
Oh.. and Erik's books are always on my "to buy" list... I just had more money with which to pick them up.
Also, Eric, good job on Shadowfell. I'm curious, was the crossroad thing with the corpse you? Cuz that's one of my favorite things in any of the campaign books for 4e.
Also, Eric, good job on Shadowfell. I'm curious, was the crossroad thing with the corpse you? Cuz that's one of my favorite things in any of the campaign books for 4e.
Difficult to say, as that whole project was extremely collaborative. I do recall that I was heavily involved in the concepts behind Dead Man's Cross, though I think it was either Matt or Andy that nailed the corpse up there. (Which I highly approved, naturally!)
Though I do want to say the Dark Lady fountain was totally me. :D
Cheers
P.S. There's an interview for the Shadowfell boxed set floating around a couple places online. I should really post that on my website/blog and stuff! (Like this!)
One thing: Switching editions doesn't require updating the realms. you can play a 4e game with 3e fluff.
Many +1s right here. In fact, the first game of my 4e FR campaign starts in two days. My campaign is set in 1368 DR, just after Kelemvor becomes the god of the dead.
I *HATE* what 4e did to the realms, and in particular, I am mostly unhappy with what that conversion did to the gods. Some of my players asked about the Spellplague, and I said, "you know, much of those effects can be related to what happened in the Time of Troubles, as some sort of latent effect." So that's what I did.
So, my gamers get 4e mechanics, but 3.x (and prior) lore, and that works just fine for us. Yes, it DOES require paying a bit of attention when they are making characters, but I haven't really found anything MECHANCIALLY in 4e that doesn't fit with 3.x, or that I can't make fit.
Once you by the setting, it is yours to do with you as you please.
And for all of you Torm haters, he's my favorite of all the gods (but prior to what they made him in 4e - and the novel, Tantras, was what made me really like him.) But now my game has Tyr and Helm back (two gods that I reall like), as well as Mask and a whole host of others.
Mark
His death more than anyone's got to me, but then I am a sort of "drow fan". One of my two main characters is a priest of his, and another drow female I have is rather obsessed with Vhaeraun, so I hope he comes back...
I agree with what one poster said about Eilistraee though; I felt she was overall useless and just as much a matriach as her mother. To have the good drow follow Corellon, who is the father of ALL elves, just makes sense to me. I was long ago going to have a good drow follow him, but I've since developed him down a very different path.
All I know is, I'm going to go apesh*t if they kill of Bahamut. I don't like reading that Tiamat is growing so strong, makes me worried! Bahamut is my favorite god of all time, and maybe he doesn't get a lot of attention (until now) but he was still one of the first gods in existance under Ao.
I don't know what happened to Helm, was he actually killed? I know Mystra died during the Empyrean Odyssey. I've heard rumors that the remaining divine power of hers that was shared in her Chosen may be able to be used to resurrect her, so she may be back in 5e.
I am glad to see others who think--know!--that Vhaeraun isn't really dead... just waiting in the shadows, as is his way!!
His death more than anyone's got to me, but then I am a sort of "drow fan". One of my two main characters is a priest of his, and another drow female I have is rather obsessed with Vhaeraun, so I hope he comes back...
This was covered in the dead drow deities thread.
I liked Vhaeraun, I really did. But he's dead, dude, there was even a body. Some people have made claim that "there was no body" To them, I invite to read the second book of the Lady Penitent Trilogy again. During the Lolth/Eilistraee interludes, they look into the Astral Plane and see his body, with huge, sword slashes in it.
And there was one heretic among the Nightshadows who served the Masked Lady that Vhaeraun was only partially killed by his sister, that not only his power, but his sentience, was still present inside Eilistraee, hiding, plotting, and waiting. But that guy was pretty much alone on that, and even if he WAS right, Eilistraee got beheaded.
I agree with what one poster said about Eilistraee though; I felt she was overall useless and just as much a matriach as her mother. To have the good drow follow Corellon, who is the father of ALL elves, just makes sense to me. I was long ago going to have a good drow follow him, but I've since developed him down a very different path.
I'll agree that Eilistraee was just as sexist as her mother. But I, personally, LOVED the scene at the end of Ascendancy when Corellon's longsword slaps Lolths hand from the sava board and addresses her as Aurushnee.
All I know is, I'm going to go apesh*t if they kill of Bahamut. I don't like reading that Tiamat is growing so strong, makes me worried! Bahamut is my favorite god of all time, and maybe he doesn't get a lot of attention (until now) but he was still one of the first gods in existance under Ao.
I think Bahamut's safe. Compared to other deities of his deific category (I think he's an intermediate deity), he's still a freaking dragon. Among intermediate deities, Bahamut is to them what a dragon is to a mortal adventurer. It would take a greater deity to kill him, and Io's still got his back.
Lolth is a liar, Vhaerun and Eilistraee are still alive. She showed you what she wantd you to see a dead body. the queen of chaos is not to be trusted.
furthermore, alot of us dont like that trilogy and don't consider it part of the realms regardless of anyone else's oppinion.
[...]I am glad to see others who think--know!--that Vhaeraun isn't really dead... just waiting in the shadows, as is his way!!
His death more than anyone's got to me, but then I am a sort of "drow fan". One of my two main characters is a priest of his, and another drow female I have is rather obsessed with Vhaeraun, so I hope he comes back...
This was covered in the dead drow deities thread.
I liked Vhaeraun, I really did. But he's dead, dude, there was even a body. Some people have made claim that "there was no body" To them, I invite to read the second book of the Lady Penitent Trilogy again. During the Lolth/Eilistraee interludes, they look into the Astral Plane and see his body, with huge, sword slashes in it.
[...]I agree with what one poster said about Eilistraee though; I felt she was overall useless and just as much a matriach as her mother. To have the good drow follow Corellon, who is the father of ALL elves, just makes sense to me. I was long ago going to have a good drow follow him, but I've since developed him down a very different path.
I'll agree that Eilistraee was just as sexist as her mother.
[...]
Sigh... this again. Eilistraee is not sexist, at all. The fact that she had only priestesses doesn't mean that she thinks that males are inferior, or something. She would welcome and love any male drow, because her purpose (and how she is intended to be by her designer) is to be a mother-goddess for ALL drow (and probably this aspect of her is why the designer ruled her to have only female clergy) . Besides, being sexist would be antithetic to what she stands for: freedom of life and self expression, and open minded acceptance of all beings who revel in life, with no discrimination or prejudice, and a deity cannot act against what he/she represents.
In novels they had fun depicting her and her priestesses as sexist, but according to the sourcebooks this absolutely is not the case. So here we have novels contradicting sourcebooks, and I don't see ANY reason to pick the worse version of Eilistraee between the two.
About the uselessness thingy, she's definitely not. What she represents (what I said above) is unique in the pantheon, as are the ways she uses to ''redeem'' the drow. She fights against the senseless injustice inflicted to the Dark Elves and to break the shackles they're bond to now, but in doing so she forgoes the harsh and violent approach and tries to open the drow's mind to different possibilities. By showing the Dark Elves kindness and affection, giving them value as individuals for what they are (which proves false the assumption at the base of lolthite dogma that the individual and life are intrinsically worthless, and what gives them value is dominating others), encouraging them to express themselves through creation and reveling (song, art, dance, helping the ones in need of it etc... which are more of tools for her, rather than her main theme), Eilistraee proves to them, with actions, that life outside Lolth's pointless dogma is possible, and helps them to find their own path to redemption and to the kind of free life that they were unjustly denied. And the result of this approach is that all of this comes spontaneously through understanding, as it should, and is not forced.
So her purpose is not at all a useless and depth-less ''get Lolth'' (why would she even care about her mother's games of power?), which -alas- is what (AFAIK) she did in the novels.
Same goes for Vhaeraun. He's unique and can't be replaced by -say- Mask because he, like his sister does, opposes to the idiocy of Lolth's dogma, and wants to free the drow from its burden and its consuming, eternal, mind numbing inner struggles (whose only purpose is to turn the drow into Lolth's personal puppets and tools of revenge), and the way he does it compliments Eilistraee's. Where his sister tries to open her followers minds to alternatives to give them their life back, Vhaeraun wants the drow to regain the influence and splendor that they lost after their pointless banishment, and wants them to be united and strong, not agonizing due to childish infighting. And to put this in practice he encourages rebellion (which is what he stands for, at the end of the day), and doesn't think twice before using subtle intrigues to weaken the frail lolthite balance, and to set foot and create networks on the surface. So, while being evil, he -almost paradoxically- actually does this for the drow, kinda like Eilistraee, and the two of them represent in an very cool way the two different and complimenting approaches to their liberation, freedom vs rebellion (in fact, it would have made sense if they had been allied, and IMO it is likely that Eilistraee never killed Vhaeraun, but that they decided to team up, and the Masked Lady was just the product of this temporary alliance, while the corpse was a sort of trick to deceive Lolth).
So they're far from being useless/redundant/whatever, and cannot be replaced by any other deity (and absolutely not Corellon, given that the genius move which doomed an entire race for no reason was approved by him, and that he didn't move a finger to help his daughter and just stepped in to grab the result of her work, not even caring about her or his son), and there is no reason why this should happen, because they add a lot of depth to the drow. Actually these two deities are the only thing that keeps them from being a bunch of one-note, frustrated, brainwashed, spineless (and a bit idiotic) zealots. In fact -personally- I don't care about the drow, they're just annoying to me (and the explanation of how their society hasn't collapsed upon itself yet is sooo cheap), but I care a lot about E and V, their followers and what they stand for.
Anyway, about them being definitely, forever ''dead'': tsk.. tsk... really? No deity in the Realms is, and I'd wait till next month to say anything about this. There are some damn encouraging hints out there about brother and sister returning to the Realms with the upcoming Menzoberranzan sourcebook (and seeing a preview map of some place in the Feywild that seems to be a kind of HQ for them, I could even speculate that they're going to be allied, which would be awesome).
About Helm, his fate was completely ridiculous. He was slain by Tyr for having (apparently) stolen his gf (lol, seriously, were they kidding us there?...). Luckily, Eric S. de Bie is working on this in his novels.
No it said Tyr fell in battle against hordes of demons after giving up his divinity.
Lolth is a liar, Vhaerun and Eilistraee are still alive. She showed you what she wantd you to see a dead body. the queen of chaos is not to be trusted.
furthermore, alot of us dont like that trilogy and don't consider it part of the realms regardless of anyone else's oppinion.
Well, it wasn't Lolth who presented that image, so you can't really implicate her in that kind of a deception, if it was one at all.
I personally, DID like that trilogy. Clearly, it was a part of the 3e-4e transition and an attempt to "clean up" the pantheons by making the list of FR deities shorter and more manageable. But it was done in a way that made sense. I especially liked the use of Elven High Magic (epic level stuff) to wipe out a demigod in a particularly inventive fashion, and while I prefer Vhaeraun to Eilistraee, the combination of the two made sense, and she more openly opposes their mother, and they both have similar goals (albeit wildly different methods). It was interesting to see how absorbing her brother compromised her integrity, and made her much more interesting.
Sigh... this again. Eilistraee is not sexist, at all. The fact that she had only priestesses doesn't mean that she thinks that males are inferior, or something. She would welcome and love any male drow, because her purpose (and how she is intended to be by her designer) is to be a mother-goddess for ALL drow (and probably this aspect of her is why the designer ruled her to have only female clergy) . Besides, being sexist would be antithetic to what she stands for: freedom of life and self expression, and open minded acceptance of all beings who revel in life, with no discrimination or prejudice, and a deity cannot act against what he/she represents.
In novels they had fun depicting her and her priestesses as sexist, but according to the sourcebooks this absolutely is not the case. So here we have novels contradicting sourcebooks, and I don't see ANY reason to pick the worse version of Eilistraee between the two.
Even older sourcebooks flat-out said that her clergy was exclusively female (such as 2e's Demihuman Deities). The novels were the only times it's even possible to depict actual attitudes of characters and deities, and they're considered canonical. Furthermore, just because she advocates freedom of life, self-expression, and acceptance doesn't mean she doesn't have her own prejudices. There's nothing antithetical nor contradictory about that. Just like there's nothing contradictory about a Lawful Good character having a greedy streak or a short temper.
The Dark Maiden may have advocated redemption of males as well as females, but males did not hold as high of a place in her esteem as females did. Much like her mother, she held that females were the only ones worthy to recieve her special graces and individual blessings. Males were delegated minor roles, such as physical labor, tending to the upkeep of temples, and foot soldiers in combat. That's sexism, plain and simple.
Vhaeraun had his own prejudices. He resented the matriarchal structure of Lolth's domination. However, unlike his sister, he did not force females into subservient or lesser roles. Males find his clergy more appealing, but females are by no means restricted from joining his clergy. The practice of being a traitor-priestess who gained clerical benefits from both Vhaeraun and Lolth, existed for centuries (Shakti Hunzrin being one). Thus, we can see that while both Vhaeraun and his sister both advocated the return of drow to the surface (albeit with wildly different motivations and methods) and oppositioin to Lolth, only Eilistraee continues their mother's tradition of sexual segregation. Hence, sexism.
About the uselessness thingy, she's definitely not. What she represents (what I said above) is unique in the pantheon, as are the ways she uses to ''redeem'' the drow. She fights against the senseless injustice inflicted to the Dark Elves and to break the shackles they're bond to now, but in doing so she forgoes the harsh and violent approach and tries to open the drow's mind to different possibilities. By showing the Dark Elves kindness and affection, giving them value as individuals for what they are (which proves false the assumption at the base of lolthite dogma that the individual and life are intrinsically worthless, and what gives them value is dominating others), encouraging them to express themselves through creation and reveling (song, art, dance, helping the ones in need of it etc... which are more of tools for her, rather than her main theme), Eilistraee proves to them, with actions, that life outside Lolth's pointless dogma is possible, and helps them to find their own path to redemption and to the kind of free life that they were unjustly denied. And the result of this approach is that all of this comes spontaneously through understanding, as it should, and is not forced.
So her purpose is not at all a useless and depth-less ''get Lolth'' (why would she even care about her mother's games of power?), which -alas- is what (AFAIK) she did in the novels.
I didn't agree with the "useless" part of his post, either, which is why I explicitly only agreed with his comment about Eilistraee being sexist. However, I don't think Lolth is as one-dimensional as you try and paint her. Whie she was for a long time, recent novels (the War of the Spider Queen onwards) have given her much more depth. For example, WotSQ emphasized her love of, and devotion to, Chaos, something that her children have not fully embraced, as the drow attempt to USE chaos for self-aggrandizement and empowerment, instead of truly embracing the flow of Chaos. The Lady Penitent Trilogy further depicted her as a weaver of very complex webs, as she used her game with Eilistraee to eliminate all other competition from the drow pantheon, under the guise of only targeting her daughter. Now we have the storyline about the Rise of the Underdark, and her ambition and long-range plans (the guiding the drow to the Underdark as a crucible to forge them into a deadly weapon) finally coming to fruition.
Same goes for Vhaeraun. He's unique and can't be replaced by -say- Mask because he, like his sister does, opposes to the idiocy of Lolth's dogma, and wants to free the drow from its burden and its consuming, eternal, mind numbing inner struggles (whose only purpose is to turn the drow into Lolth's personal puppets and tools of revenge), and the way he does it compliments Eilistraee's. Where his sister tries to open her followers minds to alternatives to give them their life back, Vhaeraun wants the drow to regain the influence and splendor that they lost after their pointless banishment, and wants them to be united and strong, not agonizing due to childish infighting. And to put this in practice he encourages rebellion (which is what he stands for, at the end of the day), and doesn't think twice before using subtle intrigues to weaken the frail lolthite balance, and to set foot and create networks on the surface. So, while being evil, he -almost paradoxically- actually does this for the drow, kinda like Eilistraee, and the two of them represent in an very cool way the two different and complimenting approaches to their liberation, freedom vs rebellion (in fact, it would have made sense if they had been allied, and IMO it is likely that Eilistraee never killed Vhaeraun, but that they decided to team up, and the Masked Lady was just the product of this temporary alliance, while the corpse was a sort of trick to deceive Lolth).
They could have been allied, except that Vhaeraun was ruthless and cruel. He sought power of his own, and advocated using any means to acquire it. Eilistraee, on the other hand, was still Good aligned, andcould not condone her brother's methods. Vhaeraun also preached a heresy of elven unity, that all elves (including drow) should unite and subjugate all other races. Eilistraee sought peace and harmony. Vhaeraun's methods would have led to a war between the humanoid races. A war that, given Vhaeraun's ethnocentric worldview, he believed the elven races would win. Vhaeraun viewed his sister as weak and useless, and he resented her near-success at turning his son, Selvetarm, to her side (until Lolth tricked him into absorbing Zanassu), as well as resenting such success as she has had in gaining converts. Had he succeeded in assassinating her, the reverse would have happened, and his congregation would have at least doubled, and given him a much larger foothold on the surface. As a master of stealth, guile, and assassination, his only hope would have been to catch her unawares (as she was the more formidable in head-on face to face combat). Knowing, as he did, of the great game being played between Lolth and Eilistraee, he took a great risk (one he judged worthwhile due to the potential gains), and attempted to assassinate her while she was busy with their mother. A gamble that would have succeeded if she hadn't been forwarned of the attack. If you recall, Quarlynd notified Eilistraee's faithful of the Nightmasks' intent prior to them casting the spell.
This is more evidence that his death was likely NOT a deception. Vhaeraun and Eilistraee were violently opposed. While they both opposed Lolth, they were each other's greatest rivals for the destiny of surface drow. Vhaeraun would not be able to succeed in a fair fight (indeed, he did not), and was betting on catching her off-guard.
So they're far from being useless/redundant/whatever, and cannot be replaced by any other deity (and absolutely not Corellon, given that the genius move which doomed an entire race for no reason was approved by him, and that he didn't move a finger to help his daughter and just stepped in to grab the result of her work, not even caring about her or his son), and there is no reason why this should happen, because they add a lot of depth to the drow. Actually these two deities are the only thing that keeps them from being a bunch of one-note, frustrated, brainwashed, spineless (and a bit idiotic) zealots. In fact -personally- I don't care about the drow, they're just annoying to me (and the explanation of how their society hasn't collapsed upon itself yet is sooo cheap), but I care a lot about E and V, their followers and what they stand for.
I like them for much of the same reason, that they diversify the drow. I don't think that the drow are as spineless nor idiotic as you claim, but it does keep them from being cookie-cutter villains.
Anyway, about them being definitely, forever ''dead'': tsk.. tsk... really? No deity in the Realms is, and I'd wait till next month to say anything about this. There are some damn encouraging hints out there about brother and sister returning to the Realms with the upcoming Menzoberranzan sourcebook (and seeing a preview map of some place in the Feywild that seems to be a kind of HQ for them, I could even speculate that they're going to be allied, which would be awesome).
Yes, but other deities they have brought back have some justification for. Mystra, for example, has invested a portion of her own power into her Chosen (and they retain their benefits from that), so arguably, that could provide the divine essence necessary to facilitate her rebirth (much like the Bhaalspawn Saga, and the divine essence of Bhaal providing the fuel for his rebirth). There has been hints for YEARS that Lathander has some connection to Amaunator (the fact that various ancient cults to Amaunator have retained divine power, the fact that Lathander appeared as a GREATER DEITY well after the fall of Netheril, that cult of Lathanderites that have always maintaing that he was Amaunator, etc.). Bane's demigod son Iyachtu Xvim was similar to Bhaal's plan, except that it was much more well-organized, well-executed, and more focused in power (as befitting a Lawful Evil Greater Power). Myrkul has actually survived, despite having no physical form or divine portfolio (which would make him a bodiless rank 0 deity inside the Horned Headdress). But some other deities are definetely dead. Liira, Ibrandul, Mystryl, and plenty of others have been dead for a long time in FR lore. Furthermore, other demihuman deities (and other pantheons) have died. Why is there no uproar over Laduergar and Deep Duerra? Rillifane Ralathil is MISSING (and presumed dead). No one seems to give a rat's behind over the complete dissolution of two entire pantheons (Untheric and Mulhorandi). I know I don't. Untheric was gone by the time I got into FR (2e), and Mulhorand was just a cheap imitation Egyptian pantheon cut-and-pasted (poorly) into an unrelated setting.
About Helm, his fate was completely ridiculous. He was slain by Tyr for having (apparently) stolen his gf (lol, seriously, were they kidding us there?...). Luckily, Eric S. de Bie is working on this in his novels.
Well, in the Empyrean Odyssey, the followers of Tyr were expressing discontent for YEARS about Tyr's behavior change while having a girlfriend. I was never really that into Helm. To me, Helm always seemed like he was an animated suit of armor that did whatever Ao told it to. Like a divine golem. His personality was very wooden, and his portfolio (duty and protection) was something that could have been passed on to other, more interesting deities who have more personality (like Torm), and whose portfolio already more or less overlapped Helm's.
Good riddance, there.
Sigh... this again. Eilistraee is not sexist, at all. The fact that she had only priestesses doesn't mean that she thinks that males are inferior, or something. She would welcome and love any male drow, because her purpose (and how she is intended to be by her designer) is to be a mother-goddess for ALL drow (and probably this aspect of her is why the designer ruled her to have only female clergy) . Besides, being sexist would be antithetic to what she stands for: freedom of life and self expression, and open minded acceptance of all beings who revel in life, with no discrimination or prejudice, and a deity cannot act against what he/she represents.
In novels they had fun depicting her and her priestesses as sexist, but according to the sourcebooks this absolutely is not the case. So here we have novels contradicting sourcebooks, and I don't see ANY reason to pick the worse version of Eilistraee between the two.
Even older sourcebooks flat-out said that her clergy was exclusively female (such as 2e's Demihuman Deities). The novels were the only times it's even possible to depict actual attitudes of characters and deities, and they're considered canonical. Furthermore, just because she advocates freedom of life, self-expression, and acceptance doesn't mean she doesn't have her own prejudices. There's nothing antithetical nor contradictory about that. Just like there's nothing contradictory about a Lawful Good character having a greedy streak or a short temper.
The Dark Maiden may have advocated redemption of males as well as females, but males did not hold as high of a place in her esteem as females did. Much like her mother, she held that females were the only ones worthy to recieve her special graces and individual blessings. Males were delegated minor roles, such as physical labor, tending to the upkeep of temples, and foot soldiers in combat. That's sexism, plain and simple.
Eilistraee promotes open minded acceptance and understanding of the diversity. In some 2e book it even says that she welcomes all the beings who revel in life and free self-expression, without citing ANY discrimination. So being sexist IS antithetical to what she stands for and to her goal of freeing and opening the drow minds and hearts to a different kind of life (which includes harmony among every being), because it cannot be if sexism and prejudice are present. In fact they would preclude to the gender considered ''lesser'' the freedom of expressing and fulfilling themselves, being them relegated to lesser roles, therefore causing discomfort and bitterness and not happiness and unity. So sexism (in the sense of considering one gender better than the other) from Eilistraee's side wouldn't make any sense, because she -being a deity- can't behave against her own ideas (besides, doing so would be stupid).
Note that I've never said that the Dark Maiden hasn't a gender-selective clergy, but having it=/=sexism. As I said, Eilistraee is intended to be a mother goddess for the whole drow race, so it is likely that having only female priestesses is due to flavor reasons (even tho it is unfitting for what she wants to create).
Besides only a small percentage of Eilistraee's followers -as in the cult of many deities- are clerics. All the rest, men and women alike, are on the same level and have the same possibilities, and priestesses would accept advices from the ones (no matter what their gender is) who know better than them about the matters involved in their issues, when an important decision has to be taken (and heck, in a 3e sourcebook it is even said that the most groups of followers of the Dark Maiden have no hierarchy).
About physical labor and foot soldiers, women followers of the Dark Maiden are charged with those activities, just like men, with no exception (priestess must even go on regular patrols to help and feed the ones in need, and they must take care of their tools and of the structures used as sanctuaries), and some of the latter (like Elkantar) can even get to occupy positions who put them above priestesses in the ''chain of command'' (as much as such a thing is present among the free-spirited Eilistraeeans). Mind you tho, I don't like this aspect (the priestesses only thingy) of her as well, as it really prevents her from shining as she could.
All of this means that we have some novels contradicting sourcebooks here, because the latter never talked about discrimination or prejudice against the males, setting aside the single gendered clergy (which, again, is likely related to a flavor matter), and -again- I don't see any reason to take the worse version of Eilistraee over the better.
About the uselessness thingy, she's definitely not. What she represents (what I said above) is unique in the pantheon, as are the ways she uses to ''redeem'' the drow. She fights against the senseless injustice inflicted to the Dark Elves and to break the shackles they're bond to now, but in doing so she forgoes the harsh and violent approach and tries to open the drow's mind to different possibilities. By showing the Dark Elves kindness and affection, giving them value as individuals for what they are (which proves false the assumption at the base of lolthite dogma that the individual and life are intrinsically worthless, and what gives them value is dominating others), encouraging them to express themselves through creation and reveling (song, art, dance, helping the ones in need of it etc... which are more of tools for her, rather than her main theme), Eilistraee proves to them, with actions, that life outside Lolth's pointless dogma is possible, and helps them to find their own path to redemption and to the kind of free life that they were unjustly denied. And the result of this approach is that all of this comes spontaneously through understanding, as it should, and is not forced.
So her purpose is not at all a useless and depth-less ''get Lolth'' (why would she even care about her mother's games of power?), which -alas- is what (AFAIK) she did in the novels.
I didn't agree with the "useless" part of his post, either, which is why I explicitly only agreed with his comment about Eilistraee being sexist. However, I don't think Lolth is as one-dimensional as you try and paint her. Whie she was for a long time, recent novels (the War of the Spider Queen onwards) have given her much more depth. For example, WotSQ emphasized her love of, and devotion to, Chaos, something that her children have not fully embraced, as the drow attempt to USE chaos for self-aggrandizement and empowerment, instead of truly embracing the flow of Chaos. The Lady Penitent Trilogy further depicted her as a weaver of very complex webs, as she used her game with Eilistraee to eliminate all other competition from the drow pantheon, under the guise of only targeting her daughter. Now we have the storyline about the Rise of the Underdark, and her ambition and long-range plans (the guiding the drow to the Underdark as a crucible to forge them into a deadly weapon) finally coming to fruition.
Lolth is one dimensional because she's all about getting power and dominating others for no real purpose and indoctrinating people, convincing them that they have no intrinsical value beside their power. Her motivation for doing so don't go beyond power itself, i.e. ''for the sake of it''. Weaving intrigues doesn't give a character depth. You can write how much you want about someone who only kills things, but he/she will remain just a killer, with no real motivations. Same goes for Lolth. She just weaves plots to conquer the world, and that's it. She never changes (except that she morphs) and her motivation will always be the pointless power for the sake of it, to boost her ego, without any real trait to make her a character with depth. Rather, with every new ''awesome, unstoppable plan to make the world crawl at her feet'' her ego inflates, and she becomes ever more a parody of a goddess. Villains should have stronger reasons to do what they do than ''because'' in order to not be trivial.
Same goes for Vhaeraun. He's unique and can't be replaced by -say- Mask because he, like his sister does, opposes to the idiocy of Lolth's dogma, and wants to free the drow from its burden and its consuming, eternal, mind numbing inner struggles (whose only purpose is to turn the drow into Lolth's personal puppets and tools of revenge), and the way he does it compliments Eilistraee's. Where his sister tries to open her followers minds to alternatives to give them their life back, Vhaeraun wants the drow to regain the influence and splendor that they lost after their pointless banishment, and wants them to be united and strong, not agonizing due to childish infighting. And to put this in practice he encourages rebellion (which is what he stands for, at the end of the day), and doesn't think twice before using subtle intrigues to weaken the frail lolthite balance, and to set foot and create networks on the surface. So, while being evil, he -almost paradoxically- actually does this for the drow, kinda like Eilistraee, and the two of them represent in an very cool way the two different and complimenting approaches to their liberation, freedom vs rebellion (in fact, it would have made sense if they had been allied, and IMO it is likely that Eilistraee never killed Vhaeraun, but that they decided to team up, and the Masked Lady was just the product of this temporary alliance, while the corpse was a sort of trick to deceive Lolth).
They could have been allied, except that Vhaeraun was ruthless and cruel. [...]
When the situation is pressing, people with similar immediate goals can easily ally, even if their methods are widely different. Also Vhaeraun's death can easily be a deception or something. I really don't see Eilistraee killing Vhaeraun (yes, she could've defended herself without killing, maybe talking him into an alliance after having defeated him), and Vhaeraun recklessly charging into Eilistraee's plane is not something he would do. And having brother and sister allied would've been infinitely cooler.
So they're far from being useless/redundant/whatever, and cannot be replaced by any other deity (and absolutely not Corellon, given that the genius move which doomed an entire race for no reason was approved by him, and that he didn't move a finger to help his daughter and just stepped in to grab the result of her work, not even caring about her or his son), and there is no reason why this should happen, because they add a lot of depth to the drow. Actually these two deities are the only thing that keeps them from being a bunch of one-note, frustrated, brainwashed, spineless (and a bit idiotic) zealots. In fact -personally- I don't care about the drow, they're just annoying to me (and the explanation of how their society hasn't collapsed upon itself yet is sooo cheap), but I care a lot about E and V, their followers and what they stand for.
I like them for much of the same reason, that they diversify the drow. I don't think that the drow are as spineless nor idiotic as you claim, but it does keep them from being cookie-cutter villains.
When I say spineless, I mean in their will (almost all of them don't even have real control on their life...). They are brainwashed and close minded, incapable of thinking out of the boundaries set by Lolth in order to make perfect puppets out of them. This leads them to be one-note caricatures (we could even replace them with bots, if not for the natural and obvious differences in their personality), as nearly all of them have the same freaking goal in their life and everything they do is aimed to it (yes, they let it influence all of what they do in their life): dominating and inflicting pain for the sake of it, because their goddess says that it is the only way to live (so it must be true, ofc). And this makes most of them frustrated, as they see themselves intrinsically worthless as individuals (because the dogma says so, therefore -again- it must be true) without someone to dominate and torture, and their end-goal is nigh impossible to reach. I read in the 3e DotU that drow even hate themselves out of the frustration of not having enough ''powah'', just like they -stupidly- hate and blame everyone else for it. Even happiness is considered to be a sign of weakness among them, because it means being satisfied with what you have, and this is obviously something to squirm at in disgust for them. So they hate and... uhm... well, they plot for their status and freak out in frustrated rage when they don't succeed (to just hate even more because of it).
Their society isn't much different from the church-dominated Middle Age one (even complete with the ''Burn the Heretic'' idiocy), with the difference that the drow plot agaisnt each other all day long, to the point of risking self destruction. And the explanation about how such pointless organization has endured the passing of time is... Lolth keeps them at bay with her leash. Bleh, this is pretty much the epitome of submission -and of being spineless-, as Lolth's success depends on the drow and they have the full potential of making her crawl back to her hole. Instead they choose to bow their head (actually they prostrate themselves in fear, besides living in constant fear of each other) and to obey to her dogma to the point of fanaticism and zealotry (and even the few ones who try to subvert the matriarchy actually do so while respecting Lolth's tenets, showing how deep the indoctrination is). As I said, a bunch brainwashed, one-dimensional people, if we consider how they really live (and exclude Eilistraeeans and Vhaerunites). Lame pawns of a deity with ego problems and not at all charismatic villains (I could even pity them, in a sense...), that's what the drow came back to be.
Anyway, about them being definitely, forever ''dead'': tsk.. tsk... really? No deity in the Realms is, and I'd wait till next month to say anything about this. There are some damn encouraging hints out there about brother and sister returning to the Realms with the upcoming Menzoberranzan sourcebook (and seeing a preview map of some place in the Feywild that seems to be a kind of HQ for them, I could even speculate that they're going to be allied, which would be awesome).
Yes, but other deities they have brought back have some justification for. [...]
I personally, DID like that trilogy. Clearly, it was a part of the 3e-4e transition and an attempt to "clean up" the pantheons by making the list of FR deities shorter and more manageable. But it was done in a way that made sense. I especially liked the use of Elven High Magic (epic level stuff) to wipe out a demigod in a particularly inventive fashion, and while I prefer Vhaeraun to Eilistraee, the combination of the two made sense, and she more openly opposes their mother, and they both have similar goals (albeit wildly different methods). It was interesting to see how absorbing her brother compromised her integrity, and made her much more interesting.
If a deity is valid and flavorful, this alone is a good reason to bring him/her back, and it is always fully possible because a good story can undo anything. And this is really the case of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Besides being awesome deities, unique and standing for meaningful concepts on their own, they have been treated really bad in those novels, and this should be corrected by bringing them back. Not only their demise, but also the unfitting depiction. Vhaeraun was depicted as a reckless fool in his direct assault to his sister, while his modus operandi always involves intrigue and deception. Eilistraee was depicted as sexist and a ''get Lolth'' kind of deity, while she should be a symbol of the opposition to the meaningless injustice inflicted to the Dark Elves and of the hope of redemption, freedom and life for ALL of them. About giving back to the drow their own life, not killing stuff.
Even her act at the end was kinda unfitting. She purposefully gave herself to free her followers from that Balor Curse (and that's totally fitting, even if the whole concept is kinda stupid itself. Original Sin? Really? Do the drow need to be even more pathetic than they normally are? And what is Eilistraee supposed to be? FR Jesus?), but what about all the other drow? By doing what she did, basically said to every other dark elf ''either you spontaneously redeem and become one of my follwers -yes, I don't care if you haven't ever heard of me- or I don't care about you'', not to mention depriving the ones not yet born of any chance of freedom and redemption.
It's not what Eilistraee would do. This is the whole ''unwilling were cast down'' thingy that the Dark Maiden -having as purpose the mothering of ALL the drow race- would never even take in consideration. She can't actually 'redeem' the ones who're already seeking alternatives to Lolth, she can just help and love them. It's the others, the ones still brainwashed (which are the VAST majority of the race), that need her support the most, and to whom the goddess decided to dedicate much effort. So no, the ending doesn't make much sense. E and V demise was wasteful, as none of them achieved any significant progress in their goal with it, neither it brought any significant change to the drow in that sense (the undoing of the descent on the -few- followers of E. was brought by the High Magic ritual, not by the sacrifice of the goddess).
Furthermore all of this feels rushed, not as the logic evolution of the conflict for the Dark Elves. Why starting this massacre all of sudden? What did trigger it? Lolth moving to another house? This is definitely a deus ex machina tool. And why would the Dark Maiden even care about her mother's pointless (and cruel) game. Her methods act at the level of drow minds and hearts, and don't involve using them as expendable pawns. Also, why would brother and sister accept to be constrained by their mother's rules, when they can easily keep fighting for their ideas and goals without doing so? The very premise of these events is kinda off and unfitting for the characters, a (not so much) pretty excuse to start the culling. But the purpose of these novels was just getting rid of the drow pantheon, not adding depth, flavor or characterization, and they wouldn't even have written them if it wasn't that the drow sell so much. So it's not that surprising, after all.
As for their merge, I don't see why making a character shadowy suddenly and automatically makes him/her waaay more interesting, even when the new dark ruins said character's concept (and especially if what makes the new version so good consists only of an increased sense of opposition with someone and of intrigues aimed to kill him/her).
Eilistraee's beauty is that she promotes freedom and redemption among the drow through understanding, being the first to prove them that the life she advocates is possible -and that Lolth's dogma is in truth a poisoning lie- through actions and giving the example. She does so by showing them affection and -with it- that they have a great value intrinsically (no matter what their ''station'' is or how much power they have, and rituals like the evensong -for both genders- prove this), by encouraging them to create (aiding people, spreading joy...), to make life flourish and to express themselves without bonds of any sort ( i.e. giving them back their lives, while trying to not directly interfering, leaving them the space to make their choices). This means that the lighthearted aspects of existence are tools for her to gift the drow with a life worthy to be called so.
Turning her into the Masked Lady (whose main focus is killing Lolth...) defeats this point and isn't even necessary, because she can indeed recur to violence as she is, and fights fiercely for ''her creatures'', but does so only when needed (like when her followers are threatened, as it is said in 2e sourcebooks). So she's not stupid good and her open mind and free spirit united to this fierce nature make her very interesting and unique.
Besides the ''fusion'' took away flavor from both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. It would've been much, much more interesting to explicitly see her and her brother allied for a time, trying to come to compromises over the methods to use in order to free the drow, even overcoming their hostility, smoothing their rough edges and leading to changes on both sides. After all, I said it in my other post, they are sister and brother and compliment each other -freedom vs rebellion-, being united by the very thing that divides them and making for a great dichotomy and potential story (all of which was -alas- wasted). Really, these two give so many possibilities of characterization and depth addition to the drow that I couldn't believe they decided to get rid of them.
So, at the end of the day the novels might have been good per se, but the events in them were a big waste in relation to the Realms.
All of those are very valid reasons to bring Eilistraee and Vhaeraun back. And it would make sense from a commercial PoV too, since these two deities have a lot of people who like them much, and who were miffed by the 3.5e era end events about them.
Also, as I said, it has been hinted that they're returning in this upcoming Menzo book. One of the authors said on a fansite board that Eilistraee is coming back, and there's even a map from this book which shows a place in the FeyDark (so, Post-Plague) which, according to what I read there, looks very much like a sort of new home plane for both brother and sister (which seem to be kind of allies now, re-opening the possibility of development for the dichotomy I was talking about above). So yes, we can't be certain until we see the book, but it's likely that they'll be back to the Realms soon (probably not as proper deities, but Archfeys -and I'd be glad of it- still back to action).
Well, in the Empyrean Odyssey, the followers of Tyr were expressing discontent for YEARS about Tyr's behavior change while having a girlfriend. I was never really that into Helm. To me, Helm always seemed like he was an animated suit of armor that did whatever Ao told it to. Like a divine golem. His personality was very wooden, and his portfolio (duty and protection) was something that could have been passed on to other, more interesting deities who have more personality (like Torm), and whose portfolio already more or less overlapped Helm's.
Good riddance, there.
Or... they could've made him an exarch instead of proposing such a stupid death (seriously, we're talking about -DEITIES- fighting over something like little kids... WTH?!)? You know, some people like Helm and while relegating him into a minor role can be fine, getting rid of things for simplicity sake sucks (and ALL the deities lost with the end of the 3.5e era and with the transition were removed for this reason).
However it looks like they have acknowledged this, because AFAIK Helm's fate is being revised in the Shadowbane novels.
you don't take away options by either axing it or saying that this was really that, and this is regardless of what you or anyone else thinks of those options.
trying to lure in new players to a setting that way didnt work, it helped alienate half the fanbase and all wotc got from it was a few new players and alot of MIAs.
as for the Shadowbane novels. Ebooks suck if t hats the only way to get them
Eilistraee promotes open minded acceptance and understanding of the diversity. In some 2e book it even says that she welcomes all the beings who revel in life and free self-expression, without citing ANY discrimination. So being sexist IS antithetical to what she stands for and to her goal of freeing and opening the drow minds and hearts to a different kind of life (which includes harmony among every being), because it cannot be if sexism and prejudice are present. In fact they would preclude to the gender considered ''lesser'' the freedom of expressing and fulfilling themselves, being them relegated to lesser roles, therefore causing discomfort and bitterness and not happiness and unity. So sexism (in the sense of considering one gender better than the other) from Eilistraee's side wouldn't make any sense, because she -being a deity- can't behave against her own ideas (besides, doing so would be stupid).
Note that I've never said that the Dark Maiden hasn't a gender-selective clergy, but having it=/=sexism. As I said, Eilistraee is intended to be a mother goddess for the whole drow race, so it is likely that having only female priestesses is due to flavor reasons (even tho it is unfitting for what she wants to create).
You have a very one-sided and unilateral view of things. Eilistraee promotes understanding of diversity in the sense of not judging people for their misdeeds. This is because she's the patron of the handful of members of an almost unvisersally evil race who have decided not to be evil, and most people will immediately judge drow as evil. You think that just because she preaches understanding and acceptance in that respect, that she does not have personality and individuality. You think she must follow some kind of mindless mantra that is a cookie-cutter mold of "person who preaches acceptance". And a deity can't behave against their portfolio, which is sometimes seperate from their ideals, look to Kelemvor and Mystra for perfect examples of that. But you can't have a perfect understanding of a deity or the way they work and every aspect of their personality just by looking at their portfolio. Look at Vhaeraun, Drow Males are listed as a part of his portfolio. It would make more sense for him to disallow female clergy than it does for Eilistraee to do the inverse. And yet he doesn't Granted, female clerics of Vhaeraun are much more rare than the males, but they are by no means prohibited.
Besides only a small percentage of Eilistraee's followers -as in the cult of many deities- are clerics. All the rest, men and women alike, are on the same level and have the same possibilities, and priestesses would accept advices from the ones (no matter what their gender is) who know better than them about the matters involved in their issues, when an important decision has to be taken (and heck, in a 3e sourcebook it is even said that the most groups of followers of the Dark Maiden have no hierarchy).
About physical labor and foot soldiers, women followers of the Dark Maiden are charged with those activities, just like men, with no exception (priestess must even go on regular patrols to help and feed the ones in need, and they must take care of their tools and of the structures used as sanctuaries), and some of the latter (like Elkantar) can even get to occupy positions who put them above priestesses in the ''chain of command'' (as much as such a thing is present among the free-spirited Eilistraeeans). Mind you tho, I don't like this aspect (the priestesses only thingy) of her as well, as it really prevents her from shining as she could.
Wasn't Elkantar Quilue's lover or something? Again, another parallel with Lolthite society, in that a male only gets authority when it's derived from the bedchamber of a ranking priestess.
All of this means that we have some novels contradicting sourcebooks here, because the latter never talked about discrimination or prejudice against the males, setting aside the single gendered clergy (which, again, is likely related to a flavor matter), and -again- I don't see any reason to take the worse version of Eilistraee over the better.
As you said, other books omitted mention of prejudice against males, they did not contradict it. So you are not taking the "better" version, you are choosing to accept the "incomplete" version.
When the situation is pressing, people with similar immediate goals can easily ally, even if their methods are widely different. Also Vhaeraun's death can easily be a deception or something. I really don't see Eilistraee killing Vhaeraun (yes, she could've defended herself without killing, maybe talking him into an alliance after having defeated him), and Vhaeraun recklessly charging into Eilistraee's plane is not something he would do. And having brother and sister allied would've been infinitely cooler.
You don't see Eilistraee using lethal means? What Dark Maiden have you been reading about? She uses a Bastard Sword, advocated hunting, and is perfectly willing to execute any drow unwilling to be redeemed. She's not some peace-loving, nonviolent hippie like Eldath. She's a warrior.
And as for Vhaeraun, you've got that twisted, too. You're so intent on being butthurt about hsi death that you want to go and say it was stupid and didn't make sense for him. He didn't "charge in recklessly" at all. You are actually 100% flat wrong in your assertion of that. Had he done that, then yes, I would say it doesn't make sense. Because the Masked Lord does not fight fair. He advocated stealth and assassination, and THAT'S what he did. He snuck into her realm, with the intent of assassinating her in a surprise attack. Had he been successful, the result might have been different. However, he was unaware that Eilistraee had been forwarned of his attack. D&D gods are not omniscient. And let's face it, in a fair fight, Eilistraee would win. And Vhaeraun was there to KILL HER. You think she wouldn't kill in self defense? She certainly would. Was she saddened by her brother's death? Yes, we see that in the second LP book. She would have preferred to save him, but he didn't want redemption, he wanted to conquer.
Their society isn't much different from the church-dominated Middle Age one (even complete with the ''Burn the Heretic'' idiocy),
Okay, real quick: don't use overly-contyrived hyperbole metaphors regarding historical references you clearly do not have a complete understanding of. I'm sick and tired of the reactionary parody of history that seems to permeate our society. I have a history degree, and my college professor was Dr. Paul Crawford, one of the world's leading experts on the Crusades and Middle Ages, so yes, I am telling you FOR A FACT that your metaphor is blatantly incorrect.
with the difference that the drow plot agaisnt each other all day long, to the point of risking self destruction. And the explanation about how such pointless organization has endured the passing of time is... Lolth keeps them at bay with her leash. Bleh, this is pretty much the epitome of submission -and of being spineless-, as Lolth's success depends on the drow and they have the full potential of making her crawl back to her hole. Instead they choose to bow their head (actually they prostrate themselves in fear, besides living in constant fear of each other) and to obey to her dogma to the point of fanaticism and zealotry (and even the few ones who try to subvert the matriarchy actually do so while respecting Lolth's tenets, showing how deep the indoctrination is). As I said, a bunch brainwashed, one-dimensional people, if we consider how they really live (and exclude Eilistraeeans and Vhaerunites). Lame pawns of a deity with ego problems and not at all charismatic villains (I could even pity them, in a sense...), that's what the drow came back to be.
Then you've never used the drow to their potential in a game. The drow are not fearful, quite the contray, they're arrogant. And they're bitter. They believe they have the right to "take back" what was denied them in the Descent. And they believe they have not only the right, but the power, to do so.
If a deity is valid and flavorful, this alone is a good reason to bring him/her back, and it is always fully possible because a good story can undo anything. And this is really the case of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Besides being awesome deities, unique and standing for meaningful concepts on their own, they have been treated really bad in those novels, and this should be corrected by bringing them back. Not only their demise, but also the unfitting depiction. Vhaeraun was depicted as a reckless fool in his direct assault to his sister, while his modus operandi always involves intrigue and deception. Eilistraee was depicted as sexist and a ''get Lolth'' kind of deity, while she should be a symbol of the opposition to the meaningless injustice inflicted to the Dark Elves and of the hope of redemption, freedom and life for ALL of them. About giving back to the drow their own life, not killing stuff.
Once again, just to reiterate, Vhaeraun was attempting an assassination and NOT a "direct attack". And Eilistraee did change after the merge, she adopted some of her brother's ruthlessness, and yes, she turned a bit from her normal MO of forgiveness and redemption and became more about "getting Lolth", but that was the change in her from absobing Vhaeraun. I would go as far as to say that during that period in which she was the Masked Lady, her deific alignment shifted to Chaotic Neutral. But that's conjecture on my part.
It's not what Eilistraee would do. This is the whole ''unwilling were cast down'' thingy that the Dark Maiden -having as purpose the mothering of ALL the drow race- would never even take in consideration. She can't actually 'redeem' the ones who're already seeking alternatives to Lolth, she can just help and love them. It's the others, the ones still brainwashed (which are the VAST majority of the race), that need her support the most, and to whom the goddess decided to dedicate much effort. So no, the ending doesn't make much sense. E and V demise was wasteful, as none of them achieved any significant progress in their goal with it, neither it brought any significant change to the drow in that sense (the undoing of the descent on the -few- followers of E. was brought by the High Magic ritual, not by the sacrifice of the goddess).
You are underestimating her influence on Quarlynd's actions. He was one of her Wizard pieces on the sava board. Granted, all the individuals thought they were acting on their own free will, but it wqas still part of Lolth and Eilistraee's game. When Catavina killed Selvetarm with the Crescent Blade, it was represented, it was also represented by Eilistraee taking out Lolth's champion piece with her Knight on the sava board.
All of those are very valid reasons to bring Eilistraee and Vhaeraun back. And it would make sense from a commercial PoV too, since these two deities have a lot of people who like them much, and who were miffed by the 3.5e era end events about them.
Also, as I said, it has been hinted that they're returning in this upcoming Menzo book. One of the authors said on a fansite board that Eilistraee is coming back, and there's even a map from this book which shows a place in the FeyDark (so, Post-Plague) which, according to what I read there, looks very much like a sort of new home plane for both brother and sister (which seem to be kind of allies now, re-opening the possibility of development for the dichotomy I was talking about above). So yes, we can't be certain until we see the book, but it's likely that they'll be back to the Realms soon (probably not as proper deities, but Archfeys -and I'd be glad of it- still back to action).
Sorry, but the new excerpt article with themes from Menzoberanzan still explicitly states that Vhaeraun is dead post-Spellplague.
Or... they could've made him an exarch instead of proposing such a stupid death (seriously, we're talking about -DEITIES- fighting over something like little kids... WTH?!)? You know, some people like Helm and while relegating him into a minor role can be fine, getting rid of things for simplicity sake sucks (and ALL the deities lost with the end of the 3.5e era and with the transition were removed for this reason).
However it looks like they have acknowledged this, because AFAIK Helm's fate is being revised in the Shadowbane novels.
Like I said before, Tyr was unoriginal anyways. He's literally a cheap imitation of Norse mythology. If they want to bring back Helm, fine. But leave Tyr dead.
Besides only a small percentage of Eilistraee's followers -as in the cult of many deities- are clerics. All the rest, men and women alike, are on the same level and have the same possibilities, and priestesses would accept advices from the ones (no matter what their gender is) who know better than them about the matters involved in their issues, when an important decision has to be taken (and heck, in a 3e sourcebook it is even said that the most groups of followers of the Dark Maiden have no hierarchy).
About physical labor and foot soldiers, women followers of the Dark Maiden are charged with those activities, just like men, with no exception (priestess must even go on regular patrols to help and feed the ones in need, and they must take care of their tools and of the structures used as sanctuaries), and some of the latter (like Elkantar) can even get to occupy positions who put them above priestesses in the ''chain of command'' (as much as such a thing is present among the free-spirited Eilistraeeans). Mind you tho, I don't like this aspect (the priestesses only thingy) of her as well, as it really prevents her from shining as she could.
Wasn't Elkantar Quilue's lover or something? Again, another parallel with Lolthite society, in that a male only gets authority when it's derived from the bedchamber of a ranking priestess.
Yes, he was. However the drow at the Promenade (priestesses included) listened to him out of respect, not because he was Qilue's lover. So there's no parallel with Lolthite society here. And duties remain still the same for both men and women.
All of this means that we have some novels contradicting sourcebooks here, because the latter never talked about discrimination or prejudice against the males, setting aside the single gendered clergy (which, again, is likely related to a flavor matter), and -again- I don't see any reason to take the worse version of Eilistraee over the better.
As you said, other books omitted mention of prejudice against males, they did not contradict it. So you are not taking the "better" version, you are choosing to accept the "incomplete" version.
Ok, I get your point. Yes, I choose the ''incomplete'' version because, according to what I read in the sourcebooks, a much more positive image of the Eilistraeeans could've been possible (without sexism, because -you know- if something like this isn't mentioned, it probably means that it's not there), but they (for reasons I can't see or understand) decided to portray them as sexist in those novels. This makes very little sense, considering the goal to which the Dark Maiden dedicated so much effort and that she stands for freedom of choice, expression and fulfillment for any being. As I said, it prevents her from shining as she can. When/if they bring her back, having this BS around again would definitely suck.
Their society isn't much different from the church-dominated Middle Age one (even complete with the ''Burn the Heretic'' idiocy),
Okay, real quick: don't use overly-contyrived hyperbole metaphors regarding historical references you clearly do not have a complete understanding of. I'm sick and tired of the reactionary parody of history that seems to permeate our society. I have a history degree, and my college professor was Dr. Paul Crawford, one of the world's leading experts on the Crusades and Middle Ages, so yes, I am telling you FOR A FACT
I sincerely apologize for my gaffe and inappropriate comparison. Still, you get my point: drow are one-note, brainwashed zealots (and yes, they are very fearful of death. It is explicitly said in the 3.5e DotU). The fact that they're puppets with no value as individuals in the hands of their goddess, the ridiculousness of the life they're forced to live and their frustration prevent them from being charismatic villains.
It's not what Eilistraee would do. This is the whole ''unwilling were cast down'' thingy that the Dark Maiden -having as purpose the mothering of ALL the drow race- would never even take in consideration. She can't actually 'redeem' the ones who're already seeking alternatives to Lolth, she can just help and love them. It's the others, the ones still brainwashed (which are the VAST majority of the race), that need her support the most, and to whom the goddess decided to dedicate much effort. So no, the ending doesn't make much sense. E and V demise was wasteful, as none of them achieved any significant progress in their goal with it, neither it brought any significant change to the drow in that sense (the undoing of the descent on the -few- followers of E. was brought by the High Magic ritual, not by the sacrifice of the goddess).
You are underestimating her influence on Quarlynd's actions. He was one of her Wizard pieces on the sava board. Granted, all the individuals thought they were acting on their own free will, but it wqas still part of Lolth and Eilistraee's game. When Catavina killed Selvetarm with the Crescent Blade, it was represented, it was also represented by Eilistraee taking out Lolth's champion piece with her Knight on the sava board.
This doesn't change that Eilistraee would never turn her back to the VAST majority of the drow, leaving them in the complete inability to live freely because of ''unwillingness'' to redeem (which doesn't make any sense, btw). It is just unfitting as ending (like the premise itself -the game- is, as I explained in my previous post). The deus ex machina is evident here.
All of those are very valid reasons to bring Eilistraee and Vhaeraun back. And it would make sense from a commercial PoV too, since these two deities have a lot of people who like them much, and who were miffed by the 3.5e era end events about them.
Also, as I said, it has been hinted that they're returning in this upcoming Menzo book. One of the authors said on a fansite board that Eilistraee is coming back, and there's even a map from this book which shows a place in the FeyDark (so, Post-Plague) which, according to what I read there, looks very much like a sort of new home plane for both brother and sister (which seem to be kind of allies now, re-opening the possibility of development for the dichotomy I was talking about above). So yes, we can't be certain until we see the book, but it's likely that they'll be back to the Realms soon (probably not as proper deities, but Archfeys -and I'd be glad of it- still back to action).
Sorry, but the new excerpt article with themes from Menzoberanzan still explicitly states that Vhaeraun is dead post-Spellplague.
Yeah -alas- I've seen that (it wasn't an excerpt, just a DDI article, tho. So I wouldn't be sure of that)... We have yet to see what they did for Eilistraee, though (and the map I was talking about wouldn't make any sense if it didn't refer to the two of them, and it is definitely Post-Plague...).
Overall, call me ''butthurt'' if you wish, but this is really a sensitive topic for me (yeah, it's weird, still...). So I apologize if I've been somehow disrespecting, irritating or insulting.
That fact that this is the 22 thread in this forum and last post is 2 years old and most of the newer threads are about the 5e realms says all you need to know about the realms 4e.
for the realms, 5e FR Ed is in charge.
What's with 5e?
Linktastic link to answer your question.
And omg I hope Vhaeraun comes back >.>
Schrödinger, and yes, I suspect it is a reference to that famous thought experiment in that the gods now (it seems) can be alive or dead, but the important part is that the average adventurer on the street doesn't know which unless they can contrive some way to directly check.
It isn't a bad idea, all things considered.
And the art gallery has a "grotto of silver and shadow" in which 3 of the chambers are "Hall of the Masked" "Hall of the Dancers" and "Throne of the Lord and Lady".
Does anyone know if that refers to Eilistraee and Vhaeraun? Have they been brought back? And are they (or their followers) working together or something?
I was in charge of the Eilistraee portion of the book. I asked (begged might be a more accurate term) for that section, because I love the Dark Maiden and wanted her to have a role in the book, since she has had such a prominent presence in the Forgotten Realms. As Brian said on the Candlekeep forum, the section that addressed Eilistraee and Vhaeraun heading into the future did not make the final cut. We worked very hard on it and fought as hard as we could to include it. Ultimately, the decision lay with the editors. [...] While I cannot share the text of what I submitted to WotC, Irennan is pretty much spot on in our idea of how to keep consistent with the old lore while returning Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. The Masked Lady sacrificed her divinity and returned as an archfey -- actually two archfey. Vhaeraun and Eilistraee lost their names in the sacrifice and only have their ancestral titles of the Mask on the Moon and the Dancing Maiden. While the archfey cannot grant spells, PCs would directly interact with the spirits of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. They rule from the Grotto of Silver and Shadow (the map was included in the map pack released with the Puzzle game), which has fallen into ruin in the centuries that they were gods. So drow servants of the Lord and Lady have two great tasks -- fight the oppression of Lolth while reclaiming a feydark realm from the wilderness and evil fey such as the fomorians. This gives judges two great campaigns - one based entirely in the feydark and dealing with other fey and one in the Underdark continuing the fight against Lolth and her minions. The followers would be far fewer than before, making every PC who serves the Lady and the Lord that much more important. Also, servants of Lolth are searching for the hidden Grotto and hunting the Lady and the Lord's followers constantly. Being a servant of the archfey would be a harrowing experience of a rebel, fighting overwhelming odds. I second Brian's recommendation to let WotC know that you want the material with Eilistraee and Vhaeraun .If other people ask for it, they may publish the cut content as a DDI article. I still have all the text and could put it together into DDI format within a week.
I sent a mail to their customer service and started a thread in the DDI forums in the hope that they will release this conetent as a DDI article. If you wish to support this request, the topic is here. Who knows, maybe if people express their interest, they'll actually listen... or maybe they'll include this lore somehwere in 5e, but I'd like to not have to wait years to see it.
for the first and last time. The Chronomancer faked his death with a clone so many centuries ago and has been watching in the background as Mystra's chosen have been doing their goddess's work. Having gone from Aethiest to a Silvanus worshiper, he went foward in time and watched it all happen.
sneaking back in the past, he hides 4 enclaves and later warns HAlruua to hide and where.
Halruua wasn't destroyed, they got out of the place 8 months before the plague and now live within it inhabiting 4 netherese enclaves.
4 enclaves of Halruuans verses two enclaves of shade....
and Eilistraee isn't dead, she just gave up her divinity and they key word in that book is Feigned death.
I ne'er liked Tyr or Torm so.....
oh wait, this is fan ficed......
its your realms, if you want Helm back, than Helm never died.
Oh wow i didn't know that either what book does that appear in I've been meaning to get the most recent novels from the drow the war of the spider queen and lady penitent series.
Oh wow i didn't know that either what book does that appear in I've been meaning to get the most recent novels from the drow the war of the spider queen and lady penitent series.
It should have been included in a drow sourcebook published the last year: both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were supposed to be back as archfeys. That lore was left on the cutting floor...
Cyric: and what does that dead fool want to say?
Secretary: He says he's back and for you to come get murdered.
Cyric: HE's dead and I am the greatest god in all of faerun.
Secretary: He says he's coming and taht Bane and his lovely associates were coming as well.
Cyric: Ha, let them come I killed taht bimbo mystra and I will murder them too.
Supreme torliet secretary :Hey Lord Cyric, Bhaals on the phone.
Cyric: and what does that dead fool want to say?
Secretary: He says he's back and for you to come get murdered.
Cyric: HE's dead and I am the greatest god in all of faerun.
Secretary: He says he's coming and taht Bane and his lovely associates were coming as well.
Cyric: Ha, let them come I killed taht bimbo mystra and I will murder them too.
Cyric was never heard from again...
Supreme torliet secretary :Hey Lord Cyric, Bhaals on the phone.
Cyric: and what does that dead fool want to say?
Secretary: He says he's back and for you to come get murdered.
Cyric: HE's dead and I am the greatest god in all of faerun.
Secretary: He says he's coming and taht Bane and his lovely associates were coming as well.
Cyric: Ha, let them come I killed taht bimbo mystra and I will murder them too.
Cyric was never heard from again...
you forgot to say how it happened
Supreme torliet secretary :Hey Lord Cyric, Bhaals on the phone.
Cyric: and what does that dead fool want to say?
Secretary: He says he's back and for you to come get murdered.
Cyric: HE's dead and I am the greatest god in all of faerun.
Secretary: He says he's coming and taht Bane and his lovely associates were coming as well.
Cyric: Ha, let them come I killed taht bimbo mystra and I will murder them too.
Cyric was never heard from again...
you forgot to say how it happened
I think the story speaks for itself
Okay, Bhaal comes back (Murder at Baldur's Gate prediction perhaps) for a little tag-team and they both relentlessly batter Cyric till he's more divine pulp than god... Better? ;)
Supreme torliet secretary :Hey Lord Cyric, Bhaals on the phone.
Cyric: and what does that dead fool want to say?
Secretary: He says he's back and for you to come get murdered.
Cyric: HE's dead and I am the greatest god in all of faerun.
Secretary: He says he's coming and taht Bane and his lovely associates were coming as well.
Cyric: Ha, let them come I killed taht bimbo mystra and I will murder them too.
Cyric was never heard from again...
you forgot to say how it happened
I think the story speaks for itself
Okay, Bhaal comes back (Murder at Baldur's Gate prediction perhaps) for a little tag-team and they both relentlessly batter Cyric till he's more divine pulp than god... Better? ;)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bifmj1O3D24
watch the whole video for your answer
Supreme torliet secretary :Hey Lord Cyric, Bhaals on the phone.
Cyric: and what does that dead fool want to say?
Secretary: He says he's back and for you to come get murdered.
Cyric: HE's dead and I am the greatest god in all of faerun.
Secretary: He says he's coming and taht Bane and his lovely associates were coming as well.
Cyric: Ha, let them come I killed taht bimbo mystra and I will murder them too.
Cyric was never heard from again...
you forgot to say how it happened
I think the story speaks for itself
Okay, Bhaal comes back (Murder at Baldur's Gate prediction perhaps) for a little tag-team and they both relentlessly batter Cyric till he's more divine pulp than god... Better? ;)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bifmj1O3D24
watch the whole video for your answer
Ahahaha, brilliant!
Doombringer_of_Hoar wrote:
Mystra dead? Perhaps she was too gentle to survive.
But i think there are many who still follow her, and perhaps she lives in their hearts in her mysterious ways, even if it's not significiant religion.
Reminds me of Real Religion's 'Hidden Treasures', which can be spiritual experiences expressed in works of Art, and other.... Maybe some people found old Mystran Artifacts and were inspired to secretly follow her.
There's room for roleplaying follower of dead Godess anyway in my opinion.
Mystra is not dead. She returned in 1479 DR and assisted adventurers in defeating Lolth.
Mystra returned to the Forgotten Realms in 1479 DR. A vestige of Mystra had survived her death in 1385 DR, and was guiding her Chosen to aid in her renewal. The Simbul was tasked to close multiple rifts in the Weave and between realms. In doing this task, she absorbed much Silverfire and Blue Flame. The Simbul gifted all of that energy to Elminster, who in turn freely returned it to Mystra in a cave within the King's Forest of Cormyr. This new Mystra was a combination of the memories of Mystra and Midnight/Mystra, and presumably of Mystryl as she had drawn her memories from the Weave rather than from personal experience. Mystra's return was highlighted as part of the Dungeons & Dragons Encounters adventure War of Everlasting Darkness by Wizards of the Coast in 2012. She assisted the adventurers in defeating Lolth and her efforts to plunge Faerun into everlasting darkness, which would have allowed the drow to invade and conquer the surface realms.
NOW i had time for reading whole first article
thanks for corrections.
I'm wondering what is going to happen to the Mulhorandi pantheon in the 5e.
The big problem I've always had was that many of the important gods are very young. You can't use Kelemvour or Myrkul for an ancient tomb that is over 3000 years old. You can however use the Mulhorandi pantheon. Osirus and Set are great gods that I've always used in my FR games and I hope they return.
Mulhorandi deities never went nowhere as far as I'm concerned... totally agree about the new gods too, only so many times you can keep using the same six gods (so to speak) who actually have longevity in the setting.
I don't have a copy of Grand History of the Realms handy, but the whole Torm / Tyr / Sune love triangle rivalry did not sit well with me. C'mon, how many times has Sune made it plain that her heart is set upon mortals? And why on earth (or wherever) would two gods of honor both decide they cannot ask the other in person to explain their view of what is going on?
Given that Tyr is an import from Norse mythos (see how he came into the Realms), it would have made more sense to have him receive a call to return home; they need him. BADLY. He therefore hands his faithful to Torm and Helm until he can return (which may be never). His departing blessing causes mixed-heritage divine aspects and provides a new plot line to explore.
Mystra is "killed" every time WotC produces a new Edition. This is meta-gaming on the highest scale. In the game world, wouldn't the other Good / Unaligned gods notice that the Goddess of Magic has become very fragile and help her set up defenses? Whether she wants the help or not? Would it not be right to give her the services of a future-seer exarch, who is tasked with detecting threats to her life and warning her in good time? Maybe Helm personally ought to move into Dweomerheart long enough to fortify the place adequately?
The so-called "punishment" meted out to Cyric and Shar suggested to me that one Epic campaign arc would be discovering what had happened that so weakened and distracted the gods of Good. Then destroy it (that ought to be humiliating: a band of mortals takes down the best-thought-out Divine plan since the Creation of the World). IMHO, the gods of Good plus Selune (Shar's twin) should have imprisoned Cyric until trial; let him boast and used that as evidence; attacked Shar with intent to imprison her as a co-conspirator to dei-cide; execute Cyric for dei-cide.
This year's Battle Interactive (The End and the Beginning) touches upon the Sundering. No spoilers here just hints from Winter Fantasy: our Epic table discovered a part of Shar's plot to create a Shadow Weave, and took justice into their own hands. The rest of us brought long-delayed justice to another important issue. We also discovered what the Spellplague truly is; knowing that, the large majority of the BI endorsed and attempted to implement a plan to banish it from Faerun. (Future players: you want to tackle this endeavor, if the opportunity comes up. RealmsFans will thank you.)
Back when "Karsus" roamed these Boards, there was a thread discussing how to resurrect Auppenser, god of psionics. That subject could be re-opened since - pay no attention to my swelled head behind the curtain - a very plausable way was described to make him an active presence again (not exactly a deity, because his origin was presumed to be a psionically adept L30 mage with a particular Epic Destiny). He probably has to lose the portfolio of wealth alas. But no other deity has the portfolio, so he will not be an unnecessary duplicate.
I do agree with thinning down the huge and duplicative pantheon of gods. Mulhorand and the historical Egyptian pantheon, Chessenta and the historic Sumeric pantheon, I did not see the point.
It's kind of amusing to consider two claimants for God of Death constantly trying to kill each other for the post, but eventually it gets boring. The two would weaken each other so a third claimant could take over, no? (This is where God of Assassins comes from, I think.)
Bane married Loviatar as part of the Spellplague-era chaos. This is funny and ironic. You do realize that, to truly get Lovitar's goat and show his superiority over her, Bane has to commit an act against his own essential nature as god of Tyranny. He has to make her commit an act against her own nature - willingly submit to his desires - and that cannot be done by Evil. Maybe part of the Sundering will be a divorce?