Topic. I don't think this was ever covered, so let's have some random useless speculation. What did Vhaeraun and Eilistraee do before they got kicked out of the Seldarine?
Eh. I'd say Eili was for hunting and Vhaeraun... maybe thievery?
Those would be the most obvious things, but they also run immediately into conflict with Solonor Thelandira and Erevan Ilesere, hence my pondering of what exactly they were even supposed to be doing, since the most obvious thing for both of them would have already been covered.
They were good for nothing, hence not making it to 1479DR. E was good for 13 year old males, and their fantasies. V was a waste of space.
They were good for nothing, hence not making it to 1479DR. E was good for 13 year old males, and their fantasies. V was a waste of space.
Those are fighting words. ;) Well, at least on Vhaeraun. E was a waste of space good for fantasies and little else.
Vhaeraun however was awesome.
Not really, but knock yourself out.:P
Ah, a shame how fast some people are to pigeonhole and then dismiss a deity. I quite liked Eilistraee, thanks, and I am neither 13 nor was she the basis of fantasies. But by all means, you two carry on with your little crusade.
37 and I still have fantasies about her!
One was the goddess of Butt Azz Neckedness and the other the god of Soppy Emo Rage. Actually I couldn't find the answer anywhere either so I'm curious as to what the real one turns out to be.
Where's LK when you need him?
i dont think i can answer this with anything not offensive, except to say look them up on wiki and you will see how ignorant this whole post really is.
Ah, a shame how fast some people are to pigeonhole and then dismiss a deity. I quite liked Eilistraee, thanks, and I am neither 13 nor was she the basis of fantasies. But by all means, you two carry on with your little crusade.
+3
Where's LK when you need him?
I don't think he's even aware that the boards are back up. If he is, he's chosen not to involve himself yet.
Oh, and for those of you who aren't aware: Vhaeraun > Eilistraee. You know it to be true, even if you refuse to recognize reality.
EDIT: And Iluvrien, I wouldn't let anything said on these boards get to you. I think Nai Calus meant it strictly as a joke; same goes for things Ol' Dirty Delta says. And myself. And Nightseer when he's around. And pretty much most of the motley crew that is this board's residents. Gods, I'm missing my smilies right now!
I should imagine that LK is still completely over at CK if he is anywhere there days. Ah well, we shall have to see.
As for being perturbed by things I might see here... I have to say thankyou, lordmanshoon, I needed that chuckle. After having some fairly impressive argum...discussions with people like Misc, Meldread and Aegeri in the past I promise you, this thread bothers me not at all ;).
i dont think i can answer this with anything not offensive, except to say look them up on wiki and you will see how ignorant this whole post really is.
We're clearly reading different wikis then, since neither Wikipedia or the FR wiki or for that matter Demihuman Deities mentions what they were the gods of before being cast out of the Seldarine. We know what they do *now* as drow gods, but we don't know what they did before. (And if you're complaining about Eilistraee, she was cast out too, just that in her case it was voluntary. She's still been kicked out.)
What I'm talking about is stuff like what we know about Lolth. She was Araushnee, elven goddess of destiny, artisans and dark elves. We know what she did back then. Hence the pondering of what the kids did. And as already stated, the most obvious things that are most related to what they do now are kind of already covered. Vhaeraun, Elven God of Thieves, kind of clashes with Erevan Ilesere, Elven God of Pretty Much The Same Thing, And Other Things Besides.
Eilistraee I suppose could have been the goddess of dancing, though that's a really narrow focus even for a Demigod.
So, not sure why the thread offends you so much. *shrug*
Where is LK, anyway? He'd probably just confirm my suspicion that this isn't actually covered anywhere, hence my call for speculation. :p I don't think he's at Candlekeep, last I saw his sig there it still said he was taking a break due to someone who'd annoyed him.
And yes, I'm rarely serious. Look at all my posts trying to convert people to worshipping Corellon. In real life. :P (Unless it's not liking Eilistraee. I really do actively dislike her for reasons this thread isn't about. :P )
so let's have some random useless speculation.
This was the key to the whole thread.:razz:
Eiliistraee was the goddess of the good drow, the hunt, the dance variouis other things iirc, which I may not.
V on the otherhand was the god of male drow, thieves, etc.
Vhaeraun was the god of obedience to mommy dearest, lack of foresight, and regrets.
Eilistraee was the goddess of obedience to daddy, lack of hindsight, and futile ambitions.
There. Question answered. 
(These smilies need to be put down like rabid dogs. This is supposed to convey laughter? I think not.)
It's possible that Erevan and Solonor didn't exist back then and were introduced as replacements.
Or it was all Erevan's scheme (Lolth) initially cause of the portfolio overlap.
In the end, there's plently of portfolios around to share.
My theory is the following:
Before the descent, Solonor Thelandira was the goddess of survival and the wildernis, while Eilistraee was the goddess of the hunt and dance. When Eilistraee was cast down, Solonor took over the hunt portfolio.
Erevan Ilesere was the god of chnage and misshcief, whiel Vhaeraun was the god of thieves. When Vhaeraun left, Erevan took the thieves in his portfolio.
Just a theory, but it would work (not that we'll ever know the truth).
Gomez
Agreed. That would fit quite nicely.
Eilistraee stepped down voluntarily to keep an eye on her brother V as they were cast from Avandor, and as self-penance for almost killing Corellon. She tried to save him, but her arrow struck him in the heart. (Chapter 4 ending in "Evermeet")
E and V are children of Araushnee (who became Lloth) and Corellon.
All the details are there if you read the Cunningham novel "Evermeet".
Very good Novel. I found myself rooting for the Elf-Eater.:D
Well met, Salani.
You would, you louse. ;p
I like Gomeztoo's idea.
I also like how most of the posts in this thread have entirely missed what I was asking. XD
*has read Evermeet, yes. Thrice.*
Corellon invested all the second generation Seldarine with specialised parts of worship shown by his early elven worshippers so they didn't stray to non elven gods. His creation of "favored" sun and moon elves had created enough room for this specialisation to emerge within the Seldarine. Araushnee (fate and dark elves), Sehanine (moon and moon elves), Rillifane (woodlands and green elves) and Sashelas (oceans and sea elves) are first generation Seldarine governing whole racial elven groups and advised Corellon on all the specialised matters concerning their own patron worshippers.
Erevan (mischief), Solonor (woodland skill), Aerdie (mastery of air) and Hanali (fey attraction) all can be seen as second generation Seldarine as well, but with a definate preferance for the less warlike sun and moon elves. Fenmarel (beast mastery) might have been called upon far more oft by the green elven clans because of the prominance of beasts in the verdant forest in the dawn ages as their patron Rillifane had more affinity with plantlife.
The nature of the dark elves [given by Corellon to Araushnee to appease her for sleeping with Sehanine and begetting the magicly adept eladrin elves] made it apt for them to have some special care enacted for them aswell, as they we're a very ambitious and warlike clan amongst the early elves.
Eilistraee had the spheres of Joy and Music amongst the dark elves but her personality showed an uncanny love for the hunt. This indicates the dark elves might had been known to have the most enchanting singers and dancers amongst the elves, and had great joy in bringing down large beasts in moonlight hunts.
Vhaerun shared his mothers cleverness but was largely invested with guidance of the mischievous nature of the more ambitious fickle and warlike dark elven worshippers. I think he orginiated with the spheres ambition and mischief.
I also like how most of the posts in this thread have entirely missed what I was asking. XD
Well, if you like, I'll give it another go.
Eilistraee was practicing archery and exploring Arvandor. She probably found the greatest enjoyment in the home of Rillifane, since a dense forest is her favorite locale. I supposed she developed a bond with the divine equivalent of nature. She also probably tried to help mommy with whatever tasks she could manage, though if Araushnee ever truly appreciated her effort is beyond me. Corellon probably enlisted her service too for little things, but showed gratitude.
Vhaeraun was most likely a lone wolf even back before his fall. That's the impression Evermeet gives me. I can see him exploring Arvandor merely to find small little pockets of isolation where he can go to be alone and relax, without having to worry about others calling on him. I'd say Vhaeraun may have been polite around the other deities simply to avoid insulting them and turning them vindictive. I don't know if he would have been practicing thievery at this time, since the trail would eventually lead back to him. Other than that, he just helped Araushnee, probably not out of the adoration Eilistraee showed for her, but because she forced him to aid. Alternatively, we could twist this around: Vhaeraun helps Araushnee to win her appreciation and confirm she loves him, but never receives any emotional support, leaving him bitter.
To the easily offended there were a few jokes thrown into the topic to have some fun. Nobody ever really got offended when LK would flirt with Rino or some other silly stuff. Just relax. 
To the OP V just seemed to be an alternative god that male drow could worhip. Since his worship was a secret in many areas I guess sneakiness became part of his being. Eli was an alternative for good drow.
My problem with Eli was she should have made her "church" more accepting of males. She should have allowed them to be equals. Instead she continued the matriarch schtick that drow society was used to and spurned the males in the long run making them flee to V. Perhaps this was done because she thought she would acquire more females by making her religion something they were familiar with and perhaps over time she would have changed the rules a bit.
Elven, not Drow. ;P
I'm pondering about *before* Araushnee betrayed Corellon. Before Vhaeraun got kicked out of the Seldarine and Eilistraee voluntarily banished herself. Back when they would have been Elven, rather than Drow, gods. There weren't even drow back then as far as we know.
That's what I mean about people not even getting the question right. :p I know what they later became the Drow gods of.
My problem with Eli was she should have made her "church" more accepting of males. She should have allowed them to be equals. Instead she continued the matriarch schtick that drow society was used to and spurned the males in the long run making them flee to V. Perhaps this was done because she thought she would acquire more females by making her religion something they were familiar with and perhaps over time she would have changed the rules a bit.
My feelings exactly. The primary reason I dislike Eilistraee was that she didn't try to go the extra mile with males. She just fell back on her's mother's system. I'm fine with Lolth, because she said flat out "Males are fodder". Eili on the other hand went with "Everyone is equal. But I don't have to acknowledge that all the time.", for which I didn't care.
Meh. Her similarity to Diana or Artemis is striking. And Artemis in one of her childhood wishes was granted eternal freedom from man when she was still young and naieve. Even the spartans held offerings to her in times of war despite her popularity amongst maidens and midwives.
___
Eilistraee always accepted males, but not in the upper echelons of the clergy. That doesn't mean she forsakes the good ailgened drow males to servitor roles as the Lolthian society does.
I think a genderbased distinction fits the zeitgeist of drow and it wont chase males away that easily. A drow society based on trust, truth and joy is the reason a good aligned drow wants to escape. He wouldn't care that the institution that brings him succor, solace and advice will be run by chaste drow maidens, he would even regocnise and accept it easier because of former experiences.
Meh. Her similarity to Diana or Artemis is striking. And Artemis in one of her childhood wishes was granted eternal freedom from man when she was still young and naieve. Even the spartans held offerings to her in times of war despite her popularity amongst maidens and midwives.
I'm not at all criticizing her for her popularity amongst women. That would be silly.
Eilistraee always accepted males, but not in the upper echelons of the clergy. That doesn't mean she forsakes the good ailgened drow males to servitor roles as the Lolthian society does.
Wasn't saying she was forsaking males. She just placed severe limitations on their ability to rise through the ranks. And that whole *spend time as a woman* thing just rubbed me the wrong way. I understood it's an eye-opening experience, but if a deity can't accept you for who you are, the relationship just seems so shallow to me.
I think a genderbased distinction fits the zeitgeist of drow and it wont chase males away that easily. A drow society based on trust, truth and joy is the reason a good aligned drow wants to escape. He wouldn't care that the institution that brings him succor, solace and advice will be run by chaste drow maidens, he would even regocnise and accept it easier because of former experiences.
Eventually, though, he'd wonder why he can't rise to a certain level in Eili's world when he truly adores Eilistraee and her principles, and he wouldn't be alone in this line of thought. Eilistraee would eventually have needed to implement change in her way of doing things, lest she begin to disillusion men and lose those males she had attracted. Some/many males would eventually grow tired of not being able to ascend all the way up the ladder, even if they knew it was preferable to being a footstool in Lolth's realms. It's surprising Eilistraee's church survived so long without encountering this problem. I wouldn't be surprised if Vhaeraun snatched up disillusioned good-aligned males who wished for Eili's church to progress.
I disagree. Eilistraee's clergy doesn't share the oppressive powerhungry views the Lolthian clergy has. An Eilistraean clergy would not strive to dictate society the way the matron mothers would, enabling the escaped males to hold positions of power outside the clergy. I can see a male drow rising to a position of rulership on a surface settlement with ungrudging maidens of Eilistraee serving as counselors, strategic advisors and healers.
I just don't see the appeal Vhaerun would have for good aligned drow as he relies on the same deceptive and guarded powerstruggles the Loltian clergies show.
I disagree. Eilistraee's clergy doesn't share the oppressive powerhungry views the Lolthian clergy has.
I didn't say they were powerhungry, and they aren't oppressive in the same way Lolth's clergy is. However, when it comes to accepting males as clergymen, it's been shown that most priestesses abhor the idea of male worshippers reaching their level (such as in The Lady Penitent, which despite its questionable content, is canon). They only seem to tolerate male priests after they've experienced that "woman's world" trial, and as I mentioned, I don't care for that (for the same reasons I'd oppose a male deity imposing a "man's world" ordeal on female acolytes). Even with said experience, men are still forbidden to rise to the higher echelons. I know that most of the blame for this does indeed lie with the priestesses themselves, but Eili did nothing to change this.
An Eilistraean clergy would not strive to dictate society the way the matron mothers would, enabling the escaped males to hold positions of power outside the clergy. I can see a male drow rising to a position of rulership on a surface settlement with ungrudging maidens of Eilistraee serving as counselors, strategic advisors and healers.
While I agree that Eili's priestesses aren't dictators, they certainly do command a great deal of clout in "redeemed" communities. While I do see males coming to power easily enough, I also expect that like in many religious socities, they'd have to appeal to the conservative traditionalists. In other words, a male who promoted the idea of males entering Eilistraee's church in large numbers, or who encouraged pre-existing male priests to challenge the custom that they can rise only so far in the church, would be met with fierce resistance at every turn. True, this is to be expected, but it clashes with the idea that "all drow are equal, regardless of sex or gender", which Eili seems to hold as a virtue. Eilistraee's church would deem the man a heretic for what, in all fairness, is a motion that promotes the idea of equality, and he'd lose support. Once that support's gone, the people would most likely turn against such a ruler, for they hold the church which led them to the surface dearer than a male who wants change. Could a male ruler work? Absolutely. But unless he finds the most liberal priestesses Eili has, he's going to have to keep his mouth shut and smile and nod with what the church says. I'm sure many would genuinely agree, but odds are there would be at least one who wouldn't conform to convention.
I just don't see the appeal Vhaerun would have for good aligned drow as he relies on the same deceptive and guarded powerstruggles the Loltian clergies show.
Like I said, he'd pick off the disillusioned ones. Males who have firm (heck, moderate) faith in Eilistraee aren't going to be deceived. But males who begin to doubt Eilistraee are prime targets. And you've in part provided an answer yourself. He's deceptive; he's not going to go hardcore NE on the confused little good males; he'd only turn them off. He'll play the sympathetic ear, the one who understands their concerns and agrees that males should hold religious power. So then he invites them to come take a look at his church (the neutral followers, and those who play "benevolent" well enough), and every Vhaeraunite is wearing a kind smile and has sympathetic eyes. And their nods of concern at how the good drow males have been kept out of the clergy. Vhaeraun's faithful understand (they're guys too), and they'll give the good drow a helping hand. And before you know it, the good males, despite hearing horrible rumors back in Eilistraee's domains, have been drawn deeper into Vhaeraun's fold, until they can't escape.
She seemed to represent freedom, freedom from the UD and Lloth. So being a goddess of freedom she decides to set limitations on her clergy. Everyone is free to be part of it but only the women have freedom to reach the highest echelons of power. I am not a big fan of that stuff with the Catholic church and I never cared for it from Eli. It is not evil or tyranical, just not that smart IMO.
Some of those V worshippers may have thought differently if Eli switched a few things around with her clergy and even Portfolio. I think she should have done an alignment shift to CN and be more accepting. I think the writers could have done this instead of killing her off.
She seemed to represent freedom, freedom from the UD and Lloth. So being a goddess of freedom she decides to set limitations on her clergy. Everyone is free to be part of it but only the women have freedom to reach the highest echelons of power. I am not a big fan of that stuff with the Catholic church and I never cared for it from Eli. It is not evil or tyranical, just not that smart IMO.
Exactly.
I think she should have done an alignment shift to CN and be more accepting. I think the writers could have done this instead of killing her off.
Well, the Masked Lady accomplished this, yet she still died. Lolth, it seemed, needed to win in the eyes of the designers.
However, when it comes to accepting males as clergymen, it's been shown that most priestesses abhor the idea of male worshippers reaching their level (such as in The Lady Penitent, which despite its questionable content, is canon). They only seem to tolerate male priests after they've experienced that "woman's world" trial, and as I mentioned, I don't care for that (for the same reasons I'd oppose a male deity imposing a "man's world" ordeal on female acolytes). Even with said experience, men are still forbidden to rise to the higher echelons. I know that most of the blame for this does indeed lie with the priestesses themselves, but Eili did nothing to change this.
Those novels reminded me of Lesbian Bondage Porn...
Not that I have a problem with Lesbian Bondage Porn...
First time I heard something interesting about those novels.
Even Corellon appearing at the end of book 3 of those novels can't make me buy even that one of them, and I make it a minor goal to collect D&D sourcebooks/novels that mention him heavily/have him appear. : P
Eilistraee and her church offend me greatly, especially the whole 'no you are useless to me until you spend time as a woman and keep spending time as a woman' thing, owing to a keen interest in TG/TS issues.
Vhaeraun, evil or no, is infinitely better on this account, since he at least has his traitor priestesses.
The Masked Lady would have been a decent midway point god, but yeah lawl Lolth. (Also, we all know damn well that it was Vhaeraun who killed Eilistraee and absorbed her, and that the eventual death was faked. I like my delusions and you can't make me stop having them.)
As far as a god for good drow to go to, I still prefer Corellon, who has no stupid gender preferences. (Wanna bet that most/all of the drow clergy he's mentioned as having in Demihuman Deities is males who didn't want yet another matriarchy? : P)
In my homebrew, actually, I had Vhaeraunites present(As a neutral faction, though Vhaeraun was still evil, that particular batch of his followers was mostly CN), but not Eilistraeeans. The good drow, of which there were a fair number owing the efforts over the past 400 years of a drow high priest of Corellon, worshipped the Seldarine. XP
Wow this got off-topic. Not that I'm helping matters. <_>
Those novels reminded me of Lesbian Bondage Porn...
That's... I guess "nice" will do.
Eilistraee and her church offend me greatly, especially the whole 'no you are useless to me until you spend time as a woman and keep spending time as a woman' thing, owing to a keen interest in TG/TS issues.
*nods in agreement*
Vhaeraun, evil or no, is infinitely better on this account, since he at least has his traitor priestesses.
Yep. One of the reasons that I don't fault Vhaeraun for his clergy's inequality is because it's a direct result of Lolth's manner of doing business, but flipped on its head. Odds are that if Lolth hadn't promoted females over males, Vhaeraun wouldn't do the opposite, since Lolth's inequality would be one less thorn in his side. Eilistraee, who claims to be all for equality and rights, shouldn't be influenced by Lolth's inequality policy, yet there's still a barrier between male and female worshippers.
The Masked Lady would have been a decent midway point god, but yeah lawl Lolth. (Also, we all know damn well that it was Vhaeraun who killed Eilistraee and absorbed her, and that the eventual death was faked. I like my delusions and you can't make me stop having them.)
What do you mean "delusions"? That's what really happened. Lisa managed to fool most, but not all.
As far as a god for good drow to go to, I still prefer Corellon, who has no stupid gender preferences. (Wanna bet that most/all of the drow clergy he's mentioned as having in Demihuman Deities is males who didn't want yet another matriarchy? : P)
Well, in Corellon's case, he's a lot more... in touch with his feminine side.
Lots of religions have components to them that boggle the modern mind and seem offensive to our values. Eilistraees clergy holds maidenhood and its pure chastity as one of her virtues. In fantastic settings there is lots of precedent for this. Unicorns only allow maidens on their back, swanmays are all females, gnolls have buff female packleaders, hathrans are females only etc. Even in nature there are races that have females as the dominant gender.
Because of the values of freedom in Eili's dogma I presume that a typical Eilistraean religious sanctuary holds several high level male clerics in positions of power dispite the dozen or so handmaidens that lead ceremonies. And freedom loving drow swordmasters cretainly are able to remain so even after their temporary transformation to female form as an initiation ritual. Crazier things happen in initiations when magic is available. *shrugs*
Vhaerun certainly has an appeal to drow males, in his own ways very tempting ones. But its obvious his position about the genders of his priesthood shows the drow way of antagonistic thinking about genderdevides is a deeply ingrained cultural thing going back thousands of years. I think its a large part of the appeal of the drow race.
Lots of religions have components to them that boggle the modern mind and seem offensive to our values. Eilistraees clergy holds maidenhood and its pure chastity as one of her virtues. In fantastic settings there is lots of precedent for this. Unicorns only allow maidens on their back, swanmays are all females, gnolls have buff female packleaders, hathrans are females only etc. Even in nature there are races that have females as the dominant gender.
Again, it's not that that I dislike the idea of females being favored over males. That's fine by me. It's just that in Eilistraee's case, she set out to specifically establish males and females as equals, as a part of her "new world order" for good drow. Yet she still prevented males from advancing in her clergy, despite her claims of equality. She's saying one thing and doing another, which takes away from her in my eyes. As long as that bar is still held above the heads of the males, they can't truly be *equal* in society. Eilistraee was her own worst enemy in terms of progressing.
Because of the values of freedom in Eili's dogma I presume that a typical Eilistraean religious sanctuary holds several high level male clerics in positions of power dispite the dozen or so handmaidens that lead ceremonies.
While that's certainly possible, it hasn't been the case in past lore, most notably in the LP trilogy, in which male Eilistraeen priests are pretty much anomalies, bordering on non-existent, until Vhaeraun's faithful convert.
And freedom loving drow swordmasters cretainly are able to remain so even after their temporary transformation to female form as an initiation ritual. Crazier things happen in initiations when magic is available. *shrugs*
I did point out the transformation was temporary. No need to italicize it for emphasis. But the idea that you have to spend time as a different sex seems extreme to me. It's certainly enlightening, but the idea that you can't be accepted for who you are, a male who's never been a female, strikes me as disheartening (much as the opposite would).
From the standpoint of someone who knows a thing or six about TG/TS, it's absolutely *horrifying*. Being forced to live as a member of the wrong sex for any length of time is awful and torture on many, many levels. Add in 'you must do this or you are unworthy' and it's just as apalling as anything Lolth does, possibly more so.
Vhaeraun actually promotes gender equality as well, and does a better job of it. He'll actually let you be a priestess of him if you're female. Better yet, he'll even let you screw over Lolth doing it by simultaneously being a priestess of *her*. And he won't insist that you spend time as a man first, either.
Corellon being more in touch with his feminine side is part of why he appeals to me. :P
Corellon being more in touch with his feminine side is part of why he appeals to me. :P
I am not going to comment...
From the standpoint of someone who knows a thing or six about TG/TS, it's absolutely *horrifying*. Being forced to live as a member of the wrong sex for any length of time is awful and torture on many, many levels. Add in 'you must do this or you are unworthy' and it's just as apalling as anything Lolth does, possibly more so.
If we still had the applauding smilie, I'd be using that right now. Seriously. This is exactly what I mean.
He'll actually let you be a priestess of him if you're female. Better yet, he'll even let you screw over Lolth doing it by simultaneously being a priestess of *her*. And he won't insist that you spend time as a man first, either.
Quite true.
Corellon being more in touch with his feminine side is part of why he appeals to me. :P
Shevarash, Rillifane, or Erevan > Corellon. Just have to stay true to myself.
As long as he doesn't start posting while in drag...or does he already post in drag?
Who, me or LM? :P
I can't speak for him, but no, I don't do drag. :p
And drag, at least as the term is defined in my mind, would be more of a transvestite thing, which is another issue from TG/TS almost entirely, although rather beyond the scope of this forum. :P Any Trans person dressing opposite their biological sex is almost certainly doing it to try to 'pass', usually as part of the transitioning process.
FtM drag would be utterly boring anyway.
I suppose phrasing it as Corellon being in touch with his feminine side is the wrong way of putting it, since yeah that does give bizzare mental images. It's more that it's appealing to have a god who's both male and female and doesn't have a problem with either part of it either in him/her/itself or others.
On-topic, uh... Eilistraee sux, Vhaeraun rox? y/n? *hides*
Who, me or LM? :PI can't speak for him, but no, I don't do drag. :p
I believe he was speaking to you. Though I don't do drag either.
I suppose phrasing it as Corellon being in touch with his feminine side is the wrong way of putting it, since yeah that does give bizzare mental images. It's more that it's appealing to have a god who's both male and female and doesn't have a problem with either part of it either in him/her/itself or others.
True.
On-topic, uh... Eilistraee sux, Vhaeraun rox? y/n? *hides*
Why hide? We all know it's fact, my friend.
Buffalo Bill Cody dressed in drag in Silence of the Lambs...
You OK there, Del? :P
oh good grief......
You OK there, Del? :P
I expect this is some sort of Cyricist ritual, to further promote randomness and chaos.
You OK there, Del? :P
I expect this is some sort of Cyricist ritual, to further promote randomness and chaos.
That or he's disturbed by what I've implied about myself and is using bizzare mental images to get the mental image out of his mind.
Eilistraees clergy holds maidenhood and its pure chastity as one of her virtues.
"Maiden" means a an independent woman. I don't think chastity has anything to do with it, as those women definitely had male lovers (even though few of them were other than temporary entertainment).
As to genderambiguity - what does it matter if you can't tell a person's gender? I have a andrygonous brother and sister in my game. Afiak, nobody has noticed yet that they are identical twins...
Agreed. It's higly likely you're right in the more sexually freeminded realms.
You probably have deduced this from the thrice damned LP series again? Those Eilistraean swordmaidens are shown as higly sexual creatures from what I heard.
I wont be surprized if some Eilistraean maidens have taken chastity vows to Eilistraee though. It is a way of showing detachement and devotion (and in 3.5 enabling some exalted feats).
Perhaps the followers of Eilistraee before Araushnees fall used to be true maidens, but they deviously started using sex as a weapon of conversion after?
I would actually think it would be the other way around.
Sexuality, among the fey (and especially in the Realms) is far more free and less tied to tradition or customs, if at all.
I think chastity as a way of devotion to Eilistraee may have formed in the aftermath of the Descend, especially as a way to strengthen the 'female only' aspect of the faith.
And yes, the lore comes from the LP series. The series uses the way treat males as sex partners as a way to cast the difference between them and those who follow Lolth (the Lolth worshippers would just 'take' a male, while the Eilistreans would ask the male for consent - though there were not a lot of bonded couples, if any - the longest lasting drow male-female relation mentioned in the books involved a Nightmask and a Banshee, and that wasn't love either).
You OK there, Del? :P
I expect this is some sort of Cyricist ritual, to further promote randomness and chaos.
That or he's disturbed by what I've implied about myself and is using bizzare mental images to get the mental image out of his mind.
Pretty much.
To which, the Cyricist ritual or the mental image? Or both?
If it makes it any better for you, like I said, FtM is boring and not as eye-searing as 6'5 hairy guys in makeup and high heels, and if done badly just looks like a chick wearing her boyfriend's clothes. :p
Interesting topic here. Never really thought about this before. Thought id throw in my 2 coppers.
Vhaeraun i could see having an active role in the Seldarine either as the elven god of shadows or perhaps vengence seein as how Shevarash wasn't around yet.
Eilistraee i aint got a clue on. Anything i could think of (the moon, hunting, dancing) is already covered by another deity. Maybe she didnt have any real godly duties, just hung out bein daddy's girl?
Alas the world may never know. Just like how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop.
Eilistraee i aint got a clue on. Anything i could think of (the moon, hunting, dancing) is already covered by another deity. Maybe she didnt have any real godly duties, just hung out bein daddy's girl?
She seemed to like going on wilderness treks and hikes. Perhaps Traveling/Exploration? Although I have the feeling that may wander into Erevan's territory, even if he doesn't claim those portfolios.
yeah i think Eilistraee is the real puzzler here. Yeah it could be exploration or something wildernessy or maybe swordplay? who knows? the main things shes associated with are all spheres of other elven gods so i guess she had to have a tie in there somewhere to be considered the drow god of hunting, the moon, and dancing. I'm gonna have to dig out some old books and flip through them. Between this thread and some of the others i've been doing that alot lately. It's cool though gives me a reason to read em, alot of em i aint looked at in years!
Eilistraee i aint got a clue on. Anything i could think of (the moon, hunting, dancing) is already covered by another deity. Maybe she didnt have any real godly duties, just hung out bein daddy's girl?
She seemed to like going on wilderness treks and hikes. Perhaps Traveling/Exploration? Although I have the feeling that may wander into Erevan's territory, even if he doesn't claim those portfolios.
Travel is one of the domains of Sehanine Moonbow. Erevan does travel alot, but he does that to pass time away from vengeful dieties he pranked in the hope they forget or see his humor.
Eilistraee's most unique portfolio is the dancing part I think.
Eilistraee i aint got a clue on. Anything i could think of (the moon, hunting, dancing) is already covered by another deity. Maybe she didnt have any real godly duties, just hung out bein daddy's girl?
She seemed to like going on wilderness treks and hikes. Perhaps Traveling/Exploration? Although I have the feeling that may wander into Erevan's territory, even if he doesn't claim those portfolios.
Travel is one of the domains of Sehanine Moonbow. Erevan does travel alot, but he does that to pass time away from vengeful dieties he pranked in the hope they forget or see his humor.Eilistraee's most unique portfolio is the dancing part I think.
Fair enough. I still like Exploration over Dancing, but there you go.
Yeah but dancing was already covered too by Zandilar who was later absorbed by Bast/Sharess.
Or wait no! Zandilar wasn't part of the Seldarine but one of the old Yuir gods (Archfey/Primal Spitit). Just read up on that in the Demihuman Deities.
So yeah i would definalty put dancing with Eilistraee and Vengence with Vhaeraun. I would say mystery solved!
Yeah Exploration could work too but i would see that as more tied in with Solonor, still it would make sense for Eilistrae to have something woodsy too being the drow godess of the hunt. But i definatly see her with dancing, now that i know that wasn't already covered.
Surely if Eilistraee's portfolio had changed during her exile (self-imposed) from the Seldarine then why could another god have picked up her portfolio when she left? Travel and Exploration (or dancing or whatever) could have been here and then picked up by the deity that holds it now after she went. This is more than likely since portfolio = power, does it not?
Surely if Eilistraee's portfolio had changed during her exile (self-imposed) from the Seldarine then why could another god have picked up her portfolio when she left? Travel and Exploration (or dancing or whatever) could have been here and then picked up by the deity that holds it now after she went. This is more than likely since portfolio = power, does it not?
Right good point, it would make sense that if there was some spare elven portfolioes floating around someone would of scooped them up.
It could be that perhaps Shevarash was brought in to fill in for Vhaeraun and Eilistraee, perhaps none of the other Elven deities wanted those porfolios due to some sort of elven honor. So I would say that Eilistraee had the Dancing, and military crusades portfolios, and Vhaeraun had Revenge and Loss, but it would make sense that Eilistraee did have something like hunting or something that Solonor scooped up.
Yes portfolio does = power, but the number of worshipers and the faith of those worshipers come into play too, and the Seldarine have never really struck me as a power hungry lot any way.
Yes portfolio does = power, but the number of worshipers and the faith of those worshipers come into play too, and the Seldarine have never really struck me as a power hungry lot any way.
They may or may not be power hungry, but consolidating your power base so that you survive in the face of your foes? That's another.
True enough, still i think Shevarash got their porfolios, their Seldarine ones any way. Perhaps Corellon held on to them until Shevarash was on the scene. And I'm sure Solonor probably got some hunting or something "woodsy" from Elisitraee as well.
Why would any deity gain something from Eilistraee? I would be utterly surprised if any 4E FR Seldarine source will talk about her at any length.
Why would any deity gain something from Eilistraee? I would be utterly surprised if any 4E FR Seldarine source will talk about her at any length.
No i dont see any 4e source focusing on Eilistraee, being as she dead. The specualtion is that after she was kicked out of the Seldarine, Solonor probably picked up hunting or something from her.
The real question here is what was Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were the gods of while with the Seldarine being that their drow portfolios are already covered by other elven deities.
This is all speculation.
ifrrc all what was said was that she was gone....
which means archfey
I agree.
She faded away and her Domain didn't go and disolve or explode or something equaly drastic...
and the definition of Feign
dictionary.reference.com/browse/feign
1. to represent fictitiously; put on an appearance of: to feign sickness.
My two cents: I think exploration sounds like Eilistraee's thing. Sehanine represents travel as a mystical change, somewhat similar to how Kelemvor personifies the domain. Eilistraee could have been the deity of travel as exploration and physical journey, somewhat similar to the dwarven deity Marthamor Duin. After her banishment/departure, the worshippers turned their prayers to Sehanine and Solonor, the next best thing.
Her affiliation with the hunt is interesting, as well. I think of Solonor as the patron of the hunt as means to feed oneself. For Eilistraee's cult, it appears to be more spiritual and wild. I'm not sure how that ties with her old (or new) portfolio... maybe she was a goddess of vengeance as well, or it is a further throwback to her patronage of travelers and explorers?
They were good for nothing, hence not making it to 1479DR. E was good for 13 year old males, and their fantasies. V was a waste of space.
Those are fighting words. ;) Well, at least on Vhaeraun. E was a waste of space good for fantasies and little else.
Vhaeraun however was awesome.
Hey, now...E was pretty awesome too. Really bothered me when they knocked her off like that...
and for what it's worth, I'm also rather fond of the "not really dead" theory, lol.
Curellon is better!
Corellon is the best god ever!
Fully agreed. 
Eilistraee's hypocrisy and the total point-missing of her church make her suck for me.
I'm still waiting for Vhaeraun to slit daddy's throat and take his place. That'll teach him for not taking V fishing as a child. Hey, maybe Vhaeraun was the God of Resentment before leaving.
Eilistraee's still dead though. She's lame.
*waits for Eili fans to rally and attack*
Eilistraee's still dead though. She's lame.
What!? You think shes lame!? I would totally go to her birthday party! Shes always nude!
D'oh! wrong thread
hahahahahahaha someone wlese said it........
well anyway, I had thought of what those two were really gods of, but it would of ending up getting the thread locked
I'm still waiting for Vhaeraun to slit daddy's throat and take his place. That'll teach him for not taking V fishing as a child. Hey, maybe Vhaeraun was the God of Resentment before leaving.
"We've replaced Corellon Larethian with new Foldger's Crystals. Let's see if anyone notices."
Speaking of undeveloped gods, what, if anything, did Selvetarm do as a god before Grandma screwed him over? I don't recall it saying, so let's have some useless speculation about him.
He was totally the god of fuzzy sweaters.
Selvetarm was the God of Ambition, Self-Perfection, and Might.
Before that ***** Eilistraee gave him the cold shoulder and left him ensnared in Lolth's web.
Well i suppose Selvetarm would be the god of something relating to the combination of his parents Divine portfolio, so im guessing he was the god of show tunes, although i could see fuzzy sweaters fitting in there as well.
I'm really wondering about Ghaunadaur, how did he manage to be part of the Drow pantheon? Hes not even a Drow? Do they let just any one in? Or was Lolth messin around alot more than any one knew?
Ah, a shame how fast some people are to pigeonhole and then dismiss a deity. I quite liked Eilistraee, thanks, and I am neither 13 nor was she the basis of fantasies. But by all means, you two carry on with your little crusade.
This. I had a Bard who ended up worshipping Eilistraee, and she wasn't even Drow (Half Moon Elf/Tethyrian.) She ended up serving in the Promenade after a while. I played this character for years (2nd edition onwards.)
I didn't take the events of the Lady Penitent Trilogy very well, to say the least. For me, it felt as if, say, someone in charge of a Tolkien-based game had gone, 'We're updating Tolkien's mythos...and we're killing off Galadriel! f**ck Galadriel, who needs her?' :/
Hey, now...E was pretty awesome too. Really bothered me when they knocked her off like that...
and for what it's worth, I'm also rather fond of the "not really dead" theory, lol.
Me too. And how many deities have been killed/resurrected so far? Bane for one. I at least expect Mystra to miraculously return in 4.5/5E as the designers go, 'WHOOPS, WE GOOFED!' or more likely..."She was never really dead! retcon Tethyr has always been at war with Eurasia!" or, "She was just hiding in the Astral Sea you guys!" I expect them to bring Mystra back before Eilistraee, but I wouldn't be surprised if both came back in one form or another.
Now I have a mental image of Selvetarm singing some flashy broadway number stuck in my head.
I would say that they need to bring back Vhaeraun, but we all know he's not really dead. 
Now I have a mental image of Selvetarm singing some flashy broadway number stuck in my head.
I would say that they need to bring back Vhaeraun, but we all know he's not really dead.
Sorry man i seem to have a habit of putting odd mental images into your head.
As for Vhaeraun, i havnt read that book yet were he gets offed by Eilistraee, but as i understand it he went to her realm and then she offed him, but isnt there a rule about gods only being killed on thier home plane? So wouldnt he just pop back up in his home plane?
I expect them to bring Mystra back before Eilistraee, but I wouldn't be surprised if both came back in one form or another.
I dont think Mystra will be back anytime soon. With no more weave theres really no point in having Mystra, unless you want to go back to the old system of spellcasting, now Azuth on the other hand...
a sitting god of magic would get rid of the remnant of the speeplague.
Azuth was eaten, Mystra would have to come back, rather have Mystryl than mystra 2.0.
Azuth was eaten, Mystra would have to come back, rather have Mystryl than mystra 2.0.
So what that Azuth was eaten? He could burst forth from Asmodeus and reclaim his divine status like Bane did with Iyacktu (however its spelled). But yes i agree i liked Mystryl better, more neutral like a god of magic should be. I thought Mystra, especialy Midnight was just too goody goody.
Selvatarm would be the god of Heavy Metal! *plays a riffing solo on his axe guitar* Yeeeaaaa-ieeee!
Selvatarm would be the god of Heavy Metal! *plays a riffing solo on his axe guitar* Yeeeaaaa-ieeee!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMqjGywYOI8
Now I have a mental image of Selvetarm singing some flashy broadway number stuck in my head.
I would say that they need to bring back Vhaeraun, but we all know he's not really dead.
Sorry man i seem to have a habit of putting odd mental images into your head.
As for Vhaeraun, i havnt read that book yet were he gets offed by Eilistraee, but as i understand it he went to her realm and then she offed him, but isnt there a rule about gods only being killed on thier home plane? So wouldnt he just pop back up in his home plane?
That was an old rule, yeah, but I dunno if it was still in effect in 3.5.
We don't actually see Vhaeraun's death, from what I know(I refuse to read the trilogy. I'd rather jam icepicks under my toenails). We're told about it, but it happens off-screen. Sure, we see the corpse later, but the Bene Gesserit have a saying for that. ;)
that series is taboo along with the war of the spider queen, neither happened in my realms.
that and Helm still lives, and dates Siamorph
We don't actually see Vhaeraun's death, from what I know(I refuse to read the trilogy. I'd rather jam icepicks under my toenails). We're told about it, but it happens off-screen. Sure, we see the corpse later, but the Bene Gesserit have a saying for that. ;)
Correct. The most one glimpses of Vhaeraun right before his death in Book 1 is his priests spying him leaping through the portal they opened with their high magic (which they shouldn't have been able to cast in the first place, but I digress). Following this, Vhaeraun is not seen for the rest of the trilogy, unless one counts Eilistraee masquerading as him as evidence that Vhaeraun wasn't totally obliterated (which is debateable). You don't even see a corpse. The faithful of Vhaeraun only come under Eili's sway when their darkfire suddenly takes on specks of silver (Eili's doing) and the Masked Lady pops into their heads when they offer up prayers.
Of course, everyone knows Lisa Smedman was mistaken, and that it was Vhaeraun who slew Eilistraee and assumed her place, posing as the Masked Lady simply to draw Lolth's attention away from his followers and onto Eilistraee's. And that he is waiting for the right moment to end his mother's reign with a knife through her throat and claim the drow as his own.
that and Helm still lives, and dates Siamorphe
Hey, great minds think alike.
he didnt kill Eilistraee though.... you would be mistaken.
He cloned himself and ploped his divinity into his clone and he departed to the feywild as an archfey.
the lovely Eilistraee you see merely killed his clone, and in the end gave up her divinity and went off and became an archfey too.
saw them awhile back laughing at the whole affair.
and they still wait as you say to bring down their mother.
the Warlocks of the hunting moon, and the warlocks of the hidden stalk the followers of lolth.....
The plot thickens
A powerhungry faction within the politically inclined fey-pact warlocks of the Hunting Moon and the Hidden Sons might even cling to the late pre-spellplague heresy of the Masked Lady. The female bealnorn archwarlock of this faction remembers all the events still vividly and wields a godslaying fey bastardsword (with a distinctive crescant blade) with the same grace of the old moondancers.
well it is better than the oh no their both dead isnt it?
their both ARch Fey
A powerhungry faction within the politically inclined fey-pact warlocks of the Hunting Moon and the Hidden Sons might even cling to the late pre-spellplague heresy of the Masked Lady. The female bealnorn archwarlock of this faction remembers all the events still vividly and wields a godslaying fey bastardsword (with a distinctive crescant blade) with the same grace of the old moondancers.
Damn. I want to see this now. Hidden Warlock factions of Eilli/Vaeraun/Eilli-as-Vaeraun/vice versa? Oh heck yes.
Why is it that we keep coming up with better and more interesting plots than the "official" 4E line regarding FR?
Why couldn't they have just put a little bit more thought/less condescending "OMG THE NEW REALMS IS GONNA BE SO MUCH BETTER U GUYS!!!!!" into the 4E Forgotten Realms?
well it is better than the oh no their both dead isnt it?
their both ARch Fey
You know, if the QoAaD was still her old self, and not Auril revealed, I'd be interested in seeing her pair up with Vhaeraun. But I much prefer Vhaeraun as a deity.
not me, prefered Eilistraee, but itwas waay back and couldnt really stanf him for being evil, and I always saw him as a carbon copy of mask,
Maybe Mask was the copy? Who existed first?
Mask is just what the stupid humans called Vhaeraun because their inferior non-elven tongues couldn't pronounce his name right.
vhaerun existed first. HE fled to the plane of shadows way back in the day.
Mask was an elevated human
what does it matter, theyre both just aspects of Shar.
what does it matter, theyre both just aspects of Shar.
Thank you for your input, Nightseer.
And they are two seperate individuals. Who just happen to have slain their female foils and assumed their identities (yeah, like Mask didn't impale Shar during their embrace. She went for the bait hook, line, and sinker, and Mask took her role).
what does it matter, theyre both just aspects of Shar.
Thank you for your input, Nightseer.
Lol. Im not sure how to respond to that. Im not advocating the supermecy of Shar, although i did have a shadow adept who worshipped Shar but it ended rather badly. With Ed's revelation about aspects and Uber deities i definatly see Shar as one of these Uber deities and lesser gods of shadows and darkness would be aspects of her.
And they are two seperate individuals. Who just happen to have slain their female foils and assumed their identities (yeah, like Mask didn't impale Shar during their embrace. She went for the bait hook, line, and sinker, and Mask took her role).
Yeah thats just what Shar wants him to think!
Eilistraee: Beauty, Dancing, Hunting, Moonlight, Song, Swordplay
Vhaeraun: Mischief, Practical Jokes, Tricks, Shadows
-Eilistraee was basically herself, sans the opposition of Lolth, and the late-3e messiah complex, and Vhaeraun was basically a darker version of Erevan Illesere.
In my world anyway.
I want Vhaeraun back.
