I'm having a tough time, though, because I seem to stumble across a lot of contradictory information. The FRCG describes the shadowfell as a twisted reflection of the world created by Shar, but doesn't go into a whole lot of detail about its geography or specific locations. The NWCG features Evernight, a dark reflection of Neverwinter, which is very interesting - but the information about its history, and the dynamics of the shadowfell itself are once again glossed over, leaving you wondering how it came to be and how it so exactly reflects the natural world when it is its own dynamic setting. I always assumed the FRCG was describing a place where the world geography is echoed, but not constructions and settlements, meaning it would have its own settlements that differed from those in the natural world (that seems to be the case with the feywild as well).
The Shadowfell Campaign Box Set describes the shadowfell as being a reflection of 1000 worlds, implying that the shadowfell is its own unstable setting and can be modularly used with any other campaign world (as well as Gloomwrought itself, sort of like Sigil).
What makes the most sense to me is that that is described in the FRCG, but it seems to be contradictory to both the information in the Gloomwrought CS and the Neverwinter CS.
looks pretty much exaclty like Neverwinter:
weird. Yeah it doesnt make much sense why man made structures would be mirrored in the Shadowfell as well, unless Shadow denizens went out of their way to make a perfect match to Neverwinter or something, IM sure theres a story in there somewhere.
But yeah, the Shadowfell is a strange place, and it further confuses things being that each world has its own Shadowfell unique to that setting. The way I look at it is that the Shadowfell is freakin huge and overlaps with all these different worlds. So Faerun has its "own" Shadowfell, but if you knew your way you could travel through "Shadowspace" to reach Eberron's Shadowfell or anyother world.
Another thing regarding the Planes, is that mortals arent going to have a clear understanding of all the workings of the planes, so of course it isnt going to make anysense!! Thats kinda the way I look at it any way.
mirror only where they touch would have made more since...
First of all, a caveat: The Shadowfell boxed set is CORE D&D, while Neverwinter is FR-specific. One cannot expect them to match up, because they are different cosmologies--the CORE D&D one is much broader and can apply to any particular world (and you're right, it's meant to be used in any campaign). The FR lore is based on what is the case for FR-only.
And that kinda gives you your answer: The information given about the Shadowfell in the FR material applies to what is known about the Shadowfell from the Realms. People in that world obviously think the Shadowfell is a reflection of *their* world, because their world is the world they experience. A FR traveler there will see reflections of the FR, while an Eberron traveler will see reflections of Eberron. PCs based in one prime world don't usually travel to other prime worlds, though of course there's no reason you as a DM couldn't decide that they might.
So basically, the Shadowfell is a shadow of a thousand mortal worlds, including the Realms. It has a shifting nature (the way shadows move based on the light) and can change for lots of reasons, including perspective of the viewer. The data presented in these various sources aren't contradictory--they're just looking at it from a different point of view.
The mirror nature of the Shadowfell does indeed include buildings sometimes, though these might be in a very different state from their mortal reflections. What in the mortal world is a broken ruin of a wizard's tower might be, in the Shadowfell, the pristine dwelling place of a powerful necromancer, and a bustling town in the mortal world might be a Shadowfell ruin overrun with monsters.
Cheers
Awesome!!
As one of the designers who worked on both the Shadowfell set and Neverwinter, I'll weigh in:
First of all, a caveat: The Shadowfell boxed set is CORE D&D, while Neverwinter is FR-specific. One cannot expect them to match up, because they are different cosmologies--the CORE D&D one is much broader and can apply to any particular world (and you're right, it's meant to be used in any campaign). The FR lore is based on what is the case for FR-only.
And that kinda gives you your answer: The information given about the Shadowfell in the FR material applies to what is known about the Shadowfell from the Realms. People in that world obviously think the Shadowfell is a reflection of *their* world, because their world is the world they experience. A FR traveler there will see reflections of the FR, while an Eberron traveler will see reflections of Eberron. PCs based in one prime world don't usually travel to other prime worlds, though of course there's no reason you as a DM couldn't decide that they might.
So basically, the Shadowfell is a shadow of a thousand mortal worlds, including the Realms. It has a shifting nature (the way shadows move based on the light) and can change for lots of reasons, including perspective of the viewer. The data presented in these various sources aren't contradictory--they're just looking at it from a different point of view.
The mirror nature of the Shadowfell does indeed include buildings sometimes, though these might be in a very different state from their mortal reflections. What in the mortal world is a broken ruin of a wizard's tower might be, in the Shadowfell, the pristine dwelling place of a powerful necromancer, and a bustling town in the mortal world might be a Shadowfell ruin overrun with monsters.
Cheers
Thanks for the explanation. I understand that the core shadowfell isn't the same thing as the FR specific shadowfell, I was mostly just struggling with the concept that Evernight (and other alternate plane locales) was both its own dynamic setting as well as being a fairly precise echo of Neverwinter and how exactly that works conceptually, but I do love the idea behind the sf/fw and am perfectly willing to just happily use the material we have.
So there could be a Shadow Waterdeep as well? Shadowdeep?
Awesome!!
Deepshadow
So there could be a Shadow Waterdeep as well? Shadowdeep?
Awesome!!
Undermountain maybe?
Deepshadow ruined city site of Waterdeep in the plane of shadows.
abandoned save for randomly summoned creatures from other planes
darkmountain: shadowfel version of undermountain
inhabitants: Shade, shadar kai, dusk elves
strangely the darkmountain would be more habitatable than the ruins of deepshadow....
good thing that Erik and Company are not taking notes of this...
There's a Shadowfell reflection of one major Realmsian city in my novel Shadowbane. Just saying.
Cheers
come on september
Next book, Eric?
(Pretty please?!)
However, I'm not a RAW zealot - the more important point is that it really just doesn't make any logical sense that structures would be reflected in the Shadowfell simply because the Shadowfell is a material place with its own population of independent sentient beings. Reflection of structures and cities heavily implies that it's something like a surreal dreamscape whose denizens are illusory or figmentary, which I would be okay with, but that isn't what it's intended to be.
I'm really not sure how I'm going to reconcile this in my games, I guess I could just rule that Evernight is an exception for some specific reason, because I quite like its story and design.
2 coppers is that its Luskan or old illusk which would make it even better.....
come on september
Better get an e reader...
Forgive me for beating a dead horse, but I still can't really make peace with this. The Manual of the Planes explicitly states that structures and settlements are not mirrored in the Shadowfell, only natural features. I perfectly understand that is a "different version" of the Shadowfell, but the FRCG pretty heavily implies that its version of the shadowfell is funtionally identical, and the implication is even stronger in the section on the Feywild.
However, I'm not a RAW zealot - the more important point is that it really just doesn't make any logical sense that structures would be reflected in the Shadowfell simply because the Shadowfell is a material place with its own population of independent sentient beings. Reflection of structures and cities heavily implies that it's something like a surreal dreamscape whose denizens are illusory or figmentary, which I would be okay with, but that isn't what it's intended to be.
I'm really not sure how I'm going to reconcile this in my games, I guess I could just rule that Evernight is an exception for some specific reason, because I quite like its story and design.
The Shadowfell is a dark reflection of the material world, but has it's own laws (physical and mundane), populace and power structure. Occasionally there are settlements shadowed in the same way that the surrounding landscape is shadowed, although that is not the general rule.
A much more fun way for me to think about it, though, is the following:
The Shadowfell and Feywild are older, "truer" worlds than the material world, and act as mirrors of one another. The material world exists as a "halfway point" between the two, and was created by the interaction between the two primary worlds.
In the end, though, the Feywild already is a world that reflects, but is independent from, the material world. I'm not sure why this is a problem, in that context.
(Note: I understand why it's annoying/other adjective to have the contradiction exist. Try to remember that the "FR shadowfell and feywild are the same as MoTP versions" is modified by some kind of "Except where otherwise noted" clause.
It's all good - like I said I actually enjoy the writing and the story surrounding Evernight/Thay, etc..... it's just the conceptual basis of the Shadowfell I struggle to wrap my head around.
It sometimes reflects buildings, and sometimes doesn't. Mostly people see a similarity in landscape, because landscapes are more likely to look like each other than specific architecture. The Shadowfell is very good at making a mountain look like a familiar mountain.
I'm sorry if anything I wrote instilled this confusion!
@getting an e-reader: An e-reader wouldn't actually be required--you'd just need a nook or kindle app for your phone or ipad, or you could probably make it work on your computer.
Cheers
Cheers
Not truly man-made within the Shadowfell, but shaped by crazy energies and the dark dreams of its mortal visitors.
I still believe that some point this is true, as you can travel from the Realms to the shadowfell and then to eberron.
traveling from the shadowfell to the feywild on the otherhand is a bit more off since one would have to go into the shadowdark and then into the FEydark and then up to the Feywild...
my reasoning for this is that the frcg says a copy of Evermeet took the place of Evermeet that was jolted into the Feywild.
Which is understandable - but something to keep in mind when you compare the two towns.
Gomez
I personally love the idea of looking down upon Evernight, say, from a distance and thinking, "Holy crap! Did Neverwinter get transported into the Shadowfell?" And then you go down, see it up close, and see that it's mostly just cracked and razor sharp rock formations that look like they've somehow been wind-scoured into the shape of buildings as they appear in Neverwrinter. Stuff like that.
Not truly man-made within the Shadowfell, but shaped by crazy energies and the dark dreams of its mortal visitors.
This! That's the kind of description I'd want to give my players the first time they cross over.
Aside: thank you Gomez for the Realmslore in DDI link in your sig. Much appreciated and very useful!
Aside: thank you Gomez for the Realmslore in DDI link in your sig. Much appreciated and very useful!
I have to update that though. I am running several months behind.
Will soon, promise.
Gomez
As I noted in the other thread, the map of Evernight is not very accurate. If you read Evernight's description, the town is quite different in places from Neverwinter. I imagine some landmarks have copies, but the main reason the two maps look so alike is, most likely, because that was a lot cheaper than actually making a new map.
Which is understandable - but something to keep in mind when you compare the two towns.
Gomez
Yes, this.
Even the map of Neverwinter doesn't quite follow the descriptions of it in the book. For example, The Wall that protects the city from the chasm is described as being a ramshackle thing, cobbled together from salvaged wood and stone and pieces of buildings, ship etc. But the map shows the wall as being just a straight, unbroken wall of solid stone.
Just disregard the maps.
I envision the Shadowfell as being vaguely similar to the world but not an exact mirror. Often there will be cities or terrain features in concurrent places but they will be quite different from their counterparts. Or there may be a feature in one plane that has no reflection in its counterpart. Or their may be an exact mirror such as Ikemmu in the Shadowfell and Ikemmu in the Underdark, which are basically exact copies of each other. This can be explained that the world and the Shadowfell are most similar in places where permanent portals exist between the two planes. Ikemmu has many long-standing permanent portals and so the two cities are basically identical. Evernight has many "chasms" which connect it to Neverwinter and so the two cities have many similarities. In my campaign Gloomwrought is roughly the equivalent of Waterdeep, but because their are few portals between the two cities, they aren't very similar to each other at all. However there is one permanent portal and the building in which it is located is exactly the same in each city and the surrounding neighborhoods in which the building is located are also very similar, but the two cities as a whole are not.