Something I never thought of before... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Something I never thought of before...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
markustay63
Feb 27, 2009 7:58:40 Okay, this should probably be in the general rules section of the site, but since I never go there, I figure I'd ask here instead -

If an undead spellcaster - like a Lich or a Vampire - cast a shapechange on himself, does he become the creature, or does he become an undead version of the creature?

I have a Lich I want to take Draconic form, but then I realized I had a problem - how can something that is technically dead take a living form?
#2
suin_bahhar_02
Feb 27, 2009 8:38:57 I looked the polymorph spells up.

Only Shapechange, Baleful Polyform or Polymorph any Object can apply to an undead. Polymorph applies only to a single touched living creature. Balefull Polymorph and Polymorph any Object target anything, but mess with the mental stats of the transmuted subjects.

But Shapechange might not even work. It mentions it works the same as Polymorph except for it allows to change INTO any type. So if the living creature limitation of Polymorph carries over to Shapechange the spell is useless for undead casters.

Not sure how to reconcile this with a certain common sense interpretation to the spells use for liches.
#3
markustay63
Feb 27, 2009 9:14:49 I realize I could just make something up - an Undead version of Shapechange for a powerful Lich, but that still leaves me with the mechanical conundrum of what, exactly, do I have there after it shapechanges?

It may look alive, but can it be?
#4
lord_karsus
Feb 27, 2009 10:23:32 -Szass Tam is always masquerading as a living Human. All of those spells, though, are illusions. So, perhaps shape changing spells don't work on Undead.
#5
markustay63
Feb 27, 2009 11:38:10 Well, here's what I'm thinking -

If it were that easy - becoming 'alive' via a simple shapechange - then wouldn't everyone do it?

The only down-side to Lichdom is being dead, so if you could just be alive whenever you wanted, it kinda defeats the whole purpose. You could go with a Shapechange and permanecy, and be alive all over again.

In fact, you could just skip right over the Lich-part, and when you get all old & gnarled you just cast Shapechange and permanency and be all young and healthy again (which begs to ask "why do any wizards ever look un-attractive? )

So, since obviously you can't 'live forever' that way (otherwise everyone would be doing it), internaly you must still be the same age, despite how you may look on the outside - only your shape is changing, not your physical age. That would mean it would have to carry-over and 'translate' into whatever you become. Lets say you are 80 and you become a dragon or Elf - then you'd be an 800 year old Dragon or Elf, that just happens to look a hell of a lot younger.

The spell can't allow you to cheat death (but you could stave it off, by permanently becoming a dragon or Elf), and internally you'd stil be the same 'age category' you were, despite appearances.

Now, if we accept all of that, then we'd have to take it a step further and say that whatever 'condition' you are in life-wise would translate into the new form, regardless of what you wanted to look like.

Here's what I'm picturing - my Lich becomes a dragon (or whatever), and looks alive, but really isn't (since he can't possibly be). You've basically turned yourself into a VERY fresh, self-willed zombie!

So day one - as long as no-one notices you aren't breathing - you could pass for being alive, and walk around town and do whatever (I'm not taking into account the effects of dayliht here). Day two - you begin to 'smell funny', which can be hidden by perfumes and what-not... but by day three you're really starting to smell bad. By the end of the week, you're actually starting to show signs of rotting (since you aren't a zombie mechanically - you are just an animated corpse technically).

So this would work in the short-term, but not as an effective substitute for un-death.

In fact, if a Lich (or whatever) thought this would work, and stayed like this too long (until he couldn't cast the spell again, or remove the permanency part), he could wind-up in a VERY bad spot. Imagine finding some old rotting corpse - that is beyond physical locomotion or even speech - and there is a 'person' trapped inside?

If it is indeed a Lich, it may actually want you to destroy its physical 'remains', so that its phylactory could rebuild another body for it.

And then we have to ask ourselves, did the permanecy still 'stick', and he comes back as another 'living dead', or does he look like he was supposed to look at the time he cast the Lich ritual?
#6
suin_bahhar_02
Feb 27, 2009 13:36:33 I like it.

A fresh fleshy corpse is what is attained when a lich casts shapechange, which in game terms means he becomes the imagined creature but immediately applies the lich template on it.

For simplicities sake make him return as he was on casting the lich ritual.

A ninth level version of Shapechange for undead. Might be better making it an epic spell though. Corpseshape sounds neat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 markustay63 Feb 27, 2009 7:58:40	Okay, this should probably be in the general rules section of the site, but since I never go there, I figure I'd ask here instead - If an undead spellcaster - like a Lich or a Vampire - cast a shapechange on himself, does he become the creature, or does he become an undead version of the creature? I have a Lich I want to take Draconic form, but then I realized I had a problem - how can something that is technically dead take a living form?
#2 suin_bahhar_02 Feb 27, 2009 8:38:57	I looked the polymorph spells up. Only Shapechange, Baleful Polyform or Polymorph any Object can apply to an undead. Polymorph applies only to a single touched living creature. Balefull Polymorph and Polymorph any Object target anything, but mess with the mental stats of the transmuted subjects. But Shapechange might not even work. It mentions it works the same as Polymorph except for it allows to change INTO any type. So if the living creature limitation of Polymorph carries over to Shapechange the spell is useless for undead casters. Not sure how to reconcile this with a certain common sense interpretation to the spells use for liches.
#3 markustay63 Feb 27, 2009 9:14:49	I realize I could just make something up - an Undead version of Shapechange for a powerful Lich, but that still leaves me with the mechanical conundrum of what, exactly, do I have there after it shapechanges? It may look alive, but can it be?
#4 lord_karsus Feb 27, 2009 10:23:32	-Szass Tam is always masquerading as a living Human. All of those spells, though, are illusions. So, perhaps shape changing spells don't work on Undead.
#5 markustay63 Feb 27, 2009 11:38:10	Well, here's what I'm thinking - If it were that easy - becoming 'alive' via a simple shapechange - then wouldn't everyone do it? The only down-side to Lichdom is being dead, so if you could just be alive whenever you wanted, it kinda defeats the whole purpose. You could go with a Shapechange and permanecy, and be alive all over again. In fact, you could just skip right over the Lich-part, and when you get all old & gnarled you just cast Shapechange and permanency and be all young and healthy again (which begs to ask "why do any wizards ever look un-attractive? ) So, since obviously you can't 'live forever' that way (otherwise everyone would be doing it), internaly you must still be the same age, despite how you may look on the outside - only your shape is changing, not your physical age. That would mean it would have to carry-over and 'translate' into whatever you become. Lets say you are 80 and you become a dragon or Elf - then you'd be an 800 year old Dragon or Elf, that just happens to look a hell of a lot younger. The spell can't allow you to cheat death (but you could stave it off, by permanently becoming a dragon or Elf), and internally you'd stil be the same 'age category' you were, despite appearances. Now, if we accept all of that, then we'd have to take it a step further and say that whatever 'condition' you are in life-wise would translate into the new form, regardless of what you wanted to look like. Here's what I'm picturing - my Lich becomes a dragon (or whatever), and looks alive, but really isn't (since he can't possibly be). You've basically turned yourself into a VERY fresh, self-willed zombie! So day one - as long as no-one notices you aren't breathing - you could pass for being alive, and walk around town and do whatever (I'm not taking into account the effects of dayliht here). Day two - you begin to 'smell funny', which can be hidden by perfumes and what-not... but by day three you're really starting to smell bad. By the end of the week, you're actually starting to show signs of rotting (since you aren't a zombie mechanically - you are just an animated corpse technically). So this would work in the short-term, but not as an effective substitute for un-death. In fact, if a Lich (or whatever) thought this would work, and stayed like this too long (until he couldn't cast the spell again, or remove the permanency part), he could wind-up in a VERY bad spot. Imagine finding some old rotting corpse - that is beyond physical locomotion or even speech - and there is a 'person' trapped inside? If it is indeed a Lich, it may actually want you to destroy its physical 'remains', so that its phylactory could rebuild another body for it. And then we have to ask ourselves, did the permanecy still 'stick', and he comes back as another 'living dead', or does he look like he was supposed to look at the time he cast the Lich ritual?
#6 suin_bahhar_02 Feb 27, 2009 13:36:33	I like it. A fresh fleshy corpse is what is attained when a lich casts shapechange, which in game terms means he becomes the imagined creature but immediately applies the lich template on it. For simplicities sake make him return as he was on casting the lich ritual. A ninth level version of Shapechange for undead. Might be better making it an epic spell though. Corpseshape sounds neat.