In recent years the Seer of Arabel has largely abandoned the city for the familiar confines of the World Serpent Inn... many suspect that Mellomir has foreseen some great cataclysm that will soon unfold on his native world, which he seeks to avoid... Mellomir's willingness to hire adventurers to recover artifacts of Faerunian construction lost on other planes adds credence to this theory.
Personally I liked the Zakhara article best.
-Could be related, or it could be something completely different. Just like those who claim that the Spellplague was intented from the beginning, based on some cryptic remarks made in some of the first couple of Forgotten Realms products from the '80s. When you want to grasp straws, you can really reach for any of them. Not saying you're wrong, but...
Well, yeah, the remarks from the '80s are probably *cough*certainly*cough* grasping at straws.
The article from January of 07, however, might not be. The recent playtesters article mentions that the testers have been ... testing ... the new ruleset for 3 years now. While it certainly didn't exist unchanged in all that time, the developers DID know that a change in the FR would be necessary (well, from their point of view, at any rate).
Depending on who wrote that article, and how "in the know" he was, he might have snuck in a tease.
I don't think it likely, but I admit that it is in the realm of possibility.
Well, yeah, the remarks from the '80s are probably *cough*certainly*cough* grasping at straws.
-Hey, you think I don't know that? Tell some other people.
Who wrote the article? I guess it depends on if the author knew of the upcoming changes when writing it.
The article was by Eric Boyd.
Those remarks from the 80s are not a "teaser for the Spellplague", as the Spellplague wasn't a twinkle in anyone's eye way back then. If these remarks are being presented as "evidence" that the Spellplague was inevitable, I would have to seriously dispute that, as per what Ed has said about them (lore bits like that were supposed to represent fears people had about what was to happen way in the future).
-You've read the same thread I've read. You've come to the same conclusions I did.
-You've read the same thread I've read. You've come to the same conclusions I did.
Indeed, LOL.
As to Ed's references in the 80s to the Spellplague - they were no such thing. They were however a reference to a possible coming cataclysm with the idea being that if a DM wanted to take the Realms in a radical new direction (much like WotC have done) then they had some lore basis for doing so. This one was Ed's "magic" ace in the hole. He also had a "gods" ace in the hole alluded to in his early Dragon magazine article on the deities of FR.
I suspect that there may more such in built, quiescent lore justifications for changes to the Realms that Ed has put in there that sit dormant under the surface of the lore we all like to pick and scratch at.
-- George Krashos
As to Ed's references in the 80s to the Spellplague - they were no such thing. They were however a reference to a possible coming cataclysm with the idea being that if a DM wanted to take the Realms in a radical new direction (much like WotC have done) then they had some lore basis for doing so. This one was Ed's "magic" ace in the hole. He also had a "gods" ace in the hole alluded to in his early Dragon magazine article on the deities of FR.
Called, interestingly enough, the Spellstorm.
Called, interestingly enough, the Spellstorm.
Interesting, indeed.
Though, are we sure that this wasn't an idea that was tossed around before the Tot's? I mean, they saw this coming--and Mystra did die...?
As to Ed's references in the 80s to the Spellplague - they were no such thing. They were however a reference to a possible coming cataclysm with the idea being that if a DM wanted to take the Realms in a radical new direction (much like WotC have done) then they had some lore basis for doing so. This one was Ed's "magic" ace in the hole. He also had a "gods" ace in the hole alluded to in his early Dragon magazine article on the deities of FR.
-Indeed. None of which "justifies", so to say, the Spellplague, in that it was intended since "the beginning".
I think there are a lot of things in the Realms that weren't intended since the "beginning".
-Yup. I'd judge that a good thing, as I like the current incarnation of the setting, rather than a theoretical "what if" that would not involve many elements that are included today.
Just like those who claim that the Spellplague was intented from the beginning, based on some cryptic remarks made in some of the first couple of Forgotten Realms products from the '80s. When you want to grasp straws, you can really reach for any of them. Not saying you're wrong, but...
While yes those are grasping at straws, you can make them related in your own FR campaign. If Wizards hasn't brought forward these aspects, I think it'd be great if fans did.
While yes those are grasping at straws, you can make them related in your own FR campaign.
-Yes, this is in effect what was done.
While I was readins Savras' description in Faiths and Pantheons, I came upon a similar piece of information. Namely, Savras is feeling puzzled, annoyed and even a little scared by the fact that his divinations of the future show nothing and he can't predict what will happen. With the information we now have, interpreting this is quite easy.
Doesn't mean that was meant as a "Spellplague teaser" though.
Shar's Roll of Shadow years IS that alternat path - During the ToT, she put certain events into motion which caused the Faerûn timeline to diverge from the one Alaundo predicted with his Roll of Years.
Time is, in effect, now 'wrong'.
Savras could not see past this, because it was time nexus-dependent, and his own life was directly involved in the outcome. I also believed that he somehow DID manage to figure 'something' out at the last mionute, and that was why he was at Mystra's side at the crucial moment.
Now, did he fail? We don't know that - perhaps the 'thing' he preveted from happening with his presence would have been much worse. I'd like to think that somehow he and Azuth managed to divert Mystar's 'spilling' power from Shar to Selune, or at least blocked Shar from getting everything she had hoped for (thus, prviding Toril with some kind of future).
This is conjecture (based on the facts at hand), and it paints Savras as a hero who sacrificed himself for the greater good, rather then an innocent bystander that got caught in the middle.
By presenting us with two different Rll of Years, they are able to explain why Alaundo's (the 1e/2e/3e) timeline is no longer in effect (like the Yeear of the Seven Sisters). It also gives them an out, just in case...
If this 'nexus' could be reboted, at some point in te future, then the 'old FR' can be re-established, without having to backtrack over everything.
Put that together with Eric Boyd's article, where a certain personage is aware of the coming problem, and is taking 'extra-planar' steps to prevent it...
You have the makings of an epic adventure path, where 4e heroes go back and 'save' the world (and perhaps Mystra), and prevent the Spellplague from ever happening.
Now, I'm not saying that they have built in a reset button.. but its there if they need it... just like Ed's lore of 'inpending doom' was used to reset it for 4e. I liek to think of it as an 'insurance policy' on their part. ;)
I researched that particular piece of lore myself awhile ago, and came to the conclusion that it had to do with a divergence of the timeline (be quiet, Karsus :P ). Anyone familiar with the Sword of Truth novels knows a little bit about prophesy and 'dead paths' that get nullified after certain effects decide which way history will go. These 'nexus points' are a great thing to use when dealing with 'the future' in a novel or game, because it allows you to change what people foresaw, and gives you a legitimate reason for doing so.
-Nope. That said, who said the rules for the Forgotten Realms have to work like they do in The Sword of Truth novels. The two are not equal, so I see no reason to have to tie seperate things together.
-That said, have you seen Indiana Jones, by any chance?
I just saw the Shadow Roll of Years as just another way to put Shar at the forefront of everything.
-Same here.
What part do you have trouble with? (And I can name half a dozen other novels series that deal with this, along with both Marvel and DC comics, and a canon 2e source - the Chronomancer).
Two Rolls of years says to me that their are now two seprate timelines - the one that should have been, and the one Shar caused the Realms to diverge into. Also, that blurb in the 3e god book (the one I also noted) tells me they have been planning something revolving around Shar 'changing things' for quite some time, and the fact that Savras was present when it all when down further supports this.
Or do you still feel everything you believe is the correct version?
Either way, we will hopefully know in August...unless they compleely choose to ignore the events that lead up to the Spellplague (and they just might).
And why would I want to see a washed up, old Star Wars star in some movie?
Now, if Capt Pickard was in it, that would a different story.... :P
And why would I want to see a washed up, old Star Wars star in some movie?
There's a lot of material in the new Indiana Jones movie that touches on topics you seem to be interested in (psychic powers, alternate dimensions, Area 51).;)
;) :D
Either way, him playing an 'action star' at his age is just kinda gross.
Think about how old I AM... and now remember that I saw Star Wars... and Harrison Ford... when I was a kid.... in the early 70's...
Nearly as bad for me as Nicolas Cage as Ghost Rider, or Ben Afflek (:yuck
as Daredevil...But at least Harrison could pull it off when he was younger.
What part do you have trouble with? (And I can name half a dozen other novels series that deal with this, along with both Marvel and DC comics, and a canon 2e source - the Chronomancer).
-Exactly: They're other novel series', Marvel, DC, and Core 2e. Not the Forgotten Realms.
Two Rolls of years says to me that their are now two seprate timelines - the one that should have been, and the one Shar caused the Realms to diverge into. Also, that blurb in the 3e god book (the one I also noted) tells me they have been planning something revolving around Shar 'changing things' for quite some time, and the fact that Savras was present when it all when down further supports this.
-Well, I am making up Steve's Roll of Years, so there must be three seperate timelines, now. Keep in mind that Liera andDenier both had their own "legends" about ultimate truths, and the true visions of the world, so I guess you could add two more. Oh, and of course, the Dawn Cataclysm. And so on...
Or do you still feel everything you believe is the correct version?
-Yes, being as that "my version is canon, and nobody except for yourself puts creedence in what you are saying, for the most part. Hell, the closest thing we have to an official records keeper, Brian, outright said he didn't see things as you did, regarding alternative histories and dimensions and what not.
And why would I want to see a washed up, old Star Wars star in some movie?
-One of the first things I said after the I saw the movie, I said to Rino, "You know who would like this movie? Markus."
Either way, him playing an 'action star' at his age is just kinda gross.
Are you kidding?
I thought Ford looked not only fine, but handsome.-One of the first things I said after the I saw the movie, I said to Rino, "You know who would like this movie? Markus."
Yeah, I had to agree with that, too!
Totally random post.:P 18D:D
You have the makings of an epic adventure path, where 4e heroes go back and 'save' the world (and perhaps Mystra), and prevent the Spellplague from ever happening.
Regardless of the Nexus point thingies, if you want to create a time travelling campaign in your own version of FR to undo the spellplague, you can. Doing so would create something of a moral dilemma. Do the heroes, who were born after the spellplague, undo the spellplague and much of their own history (including undoing all of the people they love) and possibly remove their entire race from the face of Toril?
and my SSI check is only $500 a month.
Doesn't leave me a whole lot to live on, these days. I was just messing with you about the whole 'Star wars' thing. :D
I really can't wait to see it, but I'll wait until I can by it on DVD in a few months.
And it really doesn't matter what you or Brian think - Alternate Dimensions ARE a reality (ask Dan about M-theory), and I don't mind applying a little RW physics to the Realms, when it works for me. ;)
And besides, we will see if I am right when the books come out (if they even cover the lead-up to the Spellplague). I just think Shar's Roll of Years is more important then you are giving it credit for.
Think about it - this is SHAR we are talking about here - the whole universe revolves around her these days. 4e is all about Shadow this and Shade that - I think they wouldn't have made such a big deal of it in that GHotR sidebar if they weren't going to develop it further.
Even in Paul Kemp's trilogy, he made Shar out to be some sort of primal, multi-sheric power (that temple). If anyone can mess with the timeline, she can.
And it really doesn't matter what you or Brian think - Alternate Dimensions ARE a reality (ask Dan about M-theory), and I don't mind applying a little RW physics to the Realms, when it works for me. ;)
M-theory doesn't posit "alternate" dimensions, it posits additional dimensions in our one reality of which our senses are currently unaware. It's tied to the string theory for particulate matter, not to different "quantum realities" (a completely different theoretical phenomenon) and certainly not different timelines.
In any case, M-theory is still unfinished, and it can't really be tested (how does one theoretically observe dimensions in our reality of which we are unaware?). So it's pretty much stuck at the level of theoretical mathematics. Entertaining, but zero empirical evidence.
So you agree with me then that ALL science is a sham! :D
Anything that I cannot personally observe does not exist, right? :P
I don't want to argue about this anymore, when the 4e FR books come out... and I am right about Shar's Roll of years... then I'll be back.
I find I can't 'lurk' without posting, so I don't think I can even lurk here.
besides, there nothing for me here anymore - I'd rather hop onto a rising star, then stay aboard a sinking ship.
And it really doesn't matter what you or Brian think - Alternate Dimensions ARE a reality (ask Dan about M-theory), and I don't mind applying a little RW physics to the Realms, when it works for me. ;)
-You bring up Dan, and in the same sentence, commit the "Cardinal Sin Against Dan".
-That said, the Forgotten Realms isn't the Real World.
And besides, we will see if I am right when the books come out (if they even cover the lead-up to the Spellplague). I just think Shar's Roll of Years is more important then you are giving it credit for.
-Well, you won't be, so...
Ah-ha! So you agree with me then that ALL science is a sham! :D Anything that I cannot personally observe does not exist, right? :P
Uhm... what?
--That said, the Forgotten Realms isn't the Real World.
I sure hope not with all those orcs, zhents and red wizards running around
I researched that particular piece of lore myself awhile ago, and came to the conclusion that it had to do with a divergence of the timeline (be quiet, Karsus :P ). Anyone familiar with the Sword of Truth novels knows a little bit about prophesy and 'dead paths' that get nullified after certain effects decide which way history will go. These 'nexus points' are a great thing to use when dealing with 'the future' in a novel or game, because it allows you to change what people foresaw, and gives you a legitimate reason for doing so.
Shar's Roll of Shadow years IS that alternat path - During the ToT, she put certain events into motion which caused the Faerûn timeline to diverge from the one Alaundo predicted with his Roll of Years.
Interesting concept, not betting on it as designer intent as I'm not in the mood to credit the designers with complex plans. That would involve either more than normal paranoia or trust in their abilities. The former I'm avoiding and the latter died some months ago. Still though, nexus points in time are something of a standing amusement of mine. Have one or two entities and organizations that operate outside time as mortals normally know it and use specific key events to help navigate when they are operating within localized space-time.
I sure hope not with all those orcs, zhents and red wizards running around
-Nazi's, terrorists, and communists. Close enough.
-Nazi's, terrorists, and communists. Close enough.
which one is the orcs?
which one is the orcs?
-Probably the terrorists. They all live in caves, so...