What are your predictions about this war in which Tam tries to finally realize his dreams and become the undisputed master of Thay? Will he lose? Will he win? And what will happen to Thay's influence during the war and after the war - and how the kingdom of the crimson robes will change during this conflict?
Edit: Just noticed you're in the capital. Can you tell me how much Dragons of Faerun costs there?
-As for what will happen...Well, we'll just have to wait and see, now, won't we? Personally, I want Tam to fail. It's not that I don't like the character (though, in actuality, I don't), but I don't want to see Thay unified under a single Lich dictator. It's been done too many times before. I like the Zukir ruling system.
At least, that's what I would do in their place. Thay will most likely never be this weak again.
were off to see the wizzard,
the horrible wizzard of thay!
where's me axe it's red wizzard bashing time, should be able to cause a nice bit of havoc.
anyone coming?
Errr... using the SPOILER tags would've been a good idea... considering this is still a recently released novel. Noting SPOILERS in the thread's title probably should have been considered as well.
Ah, I've been gone from the boards too long! I entirely forget about Spoiler warning. My deepest apologies.
...maybe the guy that rides a bird and the guy that killed the little lich child.... cookies
-What are you talking about?
-What are you talking about?
Never mind. He didn't understand the book.
And the Symbul is not the only one dancing for amid the bones and ashes of Thay and the Red Wizards. Look over yonder, here comes an army from Mulhorandi with a big sign reading "I Told You So."
Thay really doesn't stand a chance.
If one of Thay's enemies really wanted to put the nail in the coffin right as Tam wins the civil war re-open the gate to the Plane of Fire and let all those angry fire beasties back into Thay to have some fun.
Oh, and lets not forget the Drow right under Thaymount who are just WAITING for a chance to take control of it.
I think Tam will win, but most of Thay will be so damaged that it will almost be a meaningless victory for him.
And the Symbul is not the only one dancing for amid the bones and ashes of Thay and the Red Wizards. Look over yonder, here comes an army from Mulhorandi with a big sign reading "I Told You So."
Tam has been in preperation for this war for some time.
[Really Who Didn't see this war comming]
If the war is the other 7 zulkirs united against Tam
his first priority will be to shatter this unity to buy him some time.
If the Zulkers are not united then they will turn on each other
and Tam will just pick up the pieces.
If things turn for the worse Tam likely has an Escape plan
to get out of Thay
Rashemen, Aglarond, and Mulhorandi will be the big players in post civil war Thay.
Mulhorandi might not send in the Army though as they are already spread a bit thin with Unther.
no matter how this goes Thay is going to be a long time rebuilding from this.
Let's not also forget the Church of Kossuth and any role that they might play. The Church of Kossuth is second only in power to the Wizards themselves.
Knew I forgot something.
Maybe Tam Will enlist the Aid of the Church.
Maybe the Red Wizards will finally fall from power and there will be some kind of democratic government raised in Thay.
I highly doubt Rashemen and Agralond will try to invade Thay, if anything, they will just sit back with a bag of popcorn and watch the Red Wizards slaughter each other. Mulhorand however, may make some moves, but is still a little preoccupied with holding on to Unther.
As for the Simbul, she might just go into Thay and support one side or the other just so that the wizards die faster.
Maybe the Red Wizards will finally fall from power and there will be some kind of democratic government raised in Thay.
Not likely. If the Red Wizards go the entire country will collapse and look more or less like Iraq but with even more factions. Everyone in Thay wants part of the pie and the moment the Red Wizards are weakened you're looking at a slave uprising that spreads throughout the entire country.You are also looking at Drow possibly making the attempt to take Thaymount while the Red Wizards are fighting each other. The Church of Kossuth finally seeing their opportunity. Mulhorand at least sending a naval force if nothing else - they will manage something, even if they have to draw troops out of Unther.
Rashemen and Aglarond might not make moves until after Thay has collapsed. Rasheman will likely invade out of spite and really the areas they would invade are under populated anyway so it is not like they make a huge difference.
Aglarond might invade and crush the cities closest to their borders but they aren't going to march armies into the heart of Thay. The Simbul will likely wait until one Zulkir emerges as the victor and then kill whoever that is to ensure that the country remains in chaos.
You will see the Thayan Enclaves dry up. Mulhorand will block the docks of Thay's main port city. If the Drow take Thaymount then that will cripple the Wizards...
...and... if you want to kick the corpse just open a few portals to the Plane of Fire and let those angry Fire Salamanders back in Thay. They're still waiting.
Even with all of that, though, the major problem in Thay will not be all the external problems but the internal problems - everyone will be killing each other for power. Slaves will be uprising in shocking numbers and killing their masters.
Thay will be like Humpty Dumpty. The Nation of Thay sat on a wall. The Nation of Thay had a great fall. All of Szass Tam's wizards and all of his men, couldn't put Thay back together again.
Sadly, that won't make for an interesting novel I don't think and we'll see Thay collapse before our very eyes. One (the only?) evil nation in all of Faerun.
Let's not forget that the Simbul is bound by Mystra's will to NOT engage in the wholesale slaughter of Thayans. The goddess of magic may even order her to attempt to preserve Thay in some way. This may include occupying it, freeing the slave population and keeping the trade in magic items going.
While Mystra did ask the Simbul nicely not to wipe Thay off the map, the Simbul is in no way obligated to listen or obey Mystra. She simply agreed out of respect. If Thay is coming a part and is more or less already collapsing and the Simbul decided to teleport on over and knock Tam out of the picture... well she's basically successfully crushed Thay. By killing a single wizard.
While Mystra did ask the Simbul nicely not to wipe Thay off the map, the Simbul is in no way obligated to listen or obey Mystra. She simply agreed out of respect. If Thay is coming a part and is more or less already collapsing and the Simbul decided to teleport on over and knock Tam out of the picture... well she's basically successfully crushed Thay. By killing a single wizard.
The Simbul has her own problems at home- many of her "subjects" plot against her on the grounds that she is a tyrant in her own right (and I agree somewhat) And Szass Tam is no pushover. If that was a option for her, I'm sure she would have done it a looooong time ago. And the guy is also buddy-buddy with LARLOCH- that counts for something.
Szass Tam: "Hey Larloch old buddy, can I borrow a magic item to defeat my enemies and the Simbul?"
Larloch: "Sure. Check the pile of epic staves next to those old Netherese artifacts over there." Szass Tam: "You mean these here, under the scepter of the sorcerer kings? I thought this was destroyed?" Larloch: "Yep, so did everyone else. Now be quiet while I cast this TRUE 12th level spell....."As for Szass Tam's ploy to overtake his fellow zulkiers... he's thus far played everyonelike a fiddle. He has immense power in every sense of the word. I have this nagging feeling the power shift in Thay will go in a third direction- not to Tam, not to the surviving zulkiers (heh heh heh) but a totally mind blowing "oh man, I didn't see that coming" sort of way.
Maybe. No one will know for sure until after all is said and done. Personally, I'm more often than not prone to negative thinking when it comes to Realm's novels. I don't mind them if they stick to low level adventures in isolated areas - levels six and under. I don't mind them as long as they aren't, you know, completely reshaping the entire world.
Basically, I'm slightly peeved (a bit more than slightly, actually) that I'm sitting here looking at the Unapproachable East book that I paid good money for and now more or less 80% of it is going to become invalid information.
Maybe. No one will know for sure until after all is said and done. Personally, I'm more often than not prone to negative thinking when it comes to Realm's novels. I don't mind them if they stick to low level adventures in isolated areas - levels six and under. I don't mind them as long as they aren't, you know, completely reshaping the entire world.
Take solace in another annoying trend of WotC's novels:sourcebook thinking, whatever consequences or ramifications will probably be glossed over by the next sourcebook. The unsustainability of constant high impact novels coupled with need of a relatively stable world for gaming needs has always been an odd juxtaposition for the company and fans alike.
Basically, I'm slightly peeved (a bit more than slightly, actually) that I'm sitting here looking at the Unapproachable East book that I paid good money for and now more or less 80% of it is going to become invalid information.
Well, it's just Thay, unless they mess with the other nations overly so, that's only like what? One third? It's not like they wouldn't replace Thay with something just as troubled and hectic. It's highly unlikely for Thay to collapse and someone constructs the Happy-Lands-Formerly-Known-As-Thay-All-At-Peace overnight.
A) She was commanded by her goddess, who she has no real power to disobey
B) (and very distant B mind ye) Her increasing blood lust towards Thayans scares her
Unless of course there's some huge stack of lore that I am completely missing. Feel free to correct me with any citations
One of the Major fallouts of a Thayen civil war will be various caches of magic items will be out in circulation, bad news for a lot of people.
some possable scenarios include
1: to keep the damage to the Weve and Faerun to a minimum
mystra sends her chosen to side with the faction that will cause the least problems.
2: The various enclaces have violent purges and openly war with each other spilling the Thayen civil war across faerun
3: Thay go boom. [Welcome to Thay the Nation sized Crater.:D ]
4: Shade Decides the conquer Thay. [Hey It could happen]
5: [insert outer plane name here] Decides to conquer Thay.
6: Everybody Decides to Conquer Thay.
7: It all turns out to be a magical simulation by Tam to the
other Zulkers to show what would happen if Thay had a civil war.
Status Quo maintained.
7: It all turns out to be a magical simulation by Tam to the
other Zulkers to show what would happen if Thay had a civil war.
Status Quo maintained.
Hmm, he's done it before too, to the Tuigan Horde. From that he convinced them into a mutually beneficial agreement, though of more use to Thay than to the Tuigan of course. This one could be interesting, unlikely but interesting.
It's not like they wouldn't replace Thay with something just as troubled and hectic. It's highly unlikely for Thay to collapse and someone constructs the Happy-Lands-Formerly-Known-As-Thay-All-At-Peace overnight.
You don't know that! :P
The Simbul could decide that, although Mystra told her not to smite and destroy Thay and everyone living there, that she'd just cast a spell that automatically reversed everyone's alignment! No saving throw! Suddenly the Red Wizards are more interested in fluffy bunnies than world domination!
Teslacoil- As far as I know the Chosen still have complete and total free will. They have the ability to disobey the orders given to them by Mystra if it suits them, they are just highly unlikely to do it.
4: Shade Decides the conquer Thay. [Hey It could happen]
I would totally support that. If Thay has to go to civil war at least let's get all the uber powerful evil arch mages all in the same location. Let the city of Shade float on over and hover in the sky above Thay Mount. Turn Thay into a new evil Netheril.
This is designed to do precisely that. I think it really sucks that the Realms is moving too far away from what I like to think of as normal forms of medieval government, but unfortunately, most current game designers are not medieval historians who understand how a feudal system realliy works.
Is there really any significant difference between a serf and a slave? Are you ready? Here it is.
The serf pays taxes to a feudal lord.
Otherwise, the slave's life is just as crappy as the serf's.
Most of you guys probably don't know what quitrent is. But if you were a free man, all land belonged to your lord. If you wanted to move to someone else's land, you had to PAY his lordship a special fee called quitrent in order to leave.
So, having nothing, you move to someone else's land. Hope you have enough money to buy some land from him....
AFAIK, the Symbul was only asked not to kill Red Wizards for hobby. If it's politics, that is different.
Basically, I'm slightly peeved (a bit more than slightly, actually) that I'm sitting here looking at the Unapproachable East book that I paid good money for and now more or less 80% of it is going to become invalid information.
Just go with that whole Comic book multi dimensions thing. Thats how I sleep at night with all the FoG books I have that aren't "useful" if you follow poorly written novels.
The Simbul has her own problems at home- many of her "subjects" plot against her on the grounds that she is a tyrant in her own right (and I agree somewhat) And Szass Tam is no pushover. If that was a option for her, I'm sure she would have done it a looooong time ago. And the guy is also buddy-buddy with LARLOCH- that counts for something.
As for Szass Tam's ploy to overtake his fellow zulkiers... he's thus far played everyonelike a fiddle. He has immense power in every sense of the word. I have this nagging feeling the power shift in Thay will go in a third direction- not to Tam, not to the surviving zulkiers (heh heh heh) but a totally mind blowing "oh man, I didn't see that coming" sort of way.
Nah, I don't think Larloch would want to attract too much attention, plus, he dosen't want to fight any Chosen since he believe that they are doing their job and doing it well.
Larloch mostly just uses Tam to help him collect magic items and isn't particuarly fond of him, I highly doubt he would go ut of his way just to to help his "buddy."
There is also the chance he would attract the attention of the Princes of Shade, who would just love to get their hands on his Nethernese artifacts.
Personally, I am all for the idea that the slaves in the end revolt against their Red Wizard masters, kill them all, and raise a happy and prosperous democracy:D
Still, that is what makes her so great:D
One intersting scenario is with Szass Tam winning, who are the enclaves going to be loyal to? Most of them were set up by one specific Zulkir and run by his/her loyalists. I don't see their loyalty being instantly transferred to Tam, which creates all sorts of possiblities for governments-in-exile, and would certainly have a major effect on Thay's economy without that money coming in. Interesting Times.
Taking the Alaor will be the most difficult because it houses the bulk of the Thayan Navy, but if they take that out then they effectively have cut Thay off from their enclaves. This would cripple their economy.
If they could take the Alaor is should then be simple to blockade Bezantur, which houses the Guild of Foreign Trade and has made it Thay's primary port.
Pretty much if they can take those two locations then Thay is economically crippled.
.
Taking the Alaor will be the most difficult because it houses the bulk of the Thayan Navy, but if they take that out then they effectively have cut Thay off from their enclaves. This would cripple their economy.
a mear formality old chap if done by a combined group of navy seals type kuotoans and sahuagin armed with a multitude of hand drills.
pepper the bottom of every boat with holes and the lot of em will sink.
(And really if you want to be really hardcore you can claim that ships technically shouldn't even exist in the Realm's because they are so easily destroyed by even a low level wizard.)
But it's cannon that Thay uses the Alaor and Bezantur for the majority of their transporting of magical goods to their enclaves. So taking those places would more or less cripple the country.
Neither can she just cut someone off from magic (which would render any mage pretty much powerless) for two reasons:
A) If she did Ao would slap her on a cosmic scale for not upholding her portfolio, or to be more spesific the other gods would react and before long you'd have a new twillight war on your hands which would result in Ao bringing out the naughty-god-punishment-rod +infinity.
B) If she did odds are good Shar would be there in an instant "so she cut you off huh? well that her being a b***h, here try some of this shadowweave...yeah good aint it? sign on the dotted line"
What she CAN do however if one of her choosen really gets out of line is cut off their choosen privileges, like she did with Sammaster after he would not stop what he was doing after several warnings.
She could also have a serious talk with her choosen, who all have her as their patron god (cept for Queile(sp) o'course since she has Elistree as hers...I think) and when your patron god tells you to stop and listen for a minutte most people would step back and listen.
Worst case scenario a choosen seriously mucks up and dies, then when they getto the fugal plain they get the "False" sign around their neck since they had a patron god but went against her dogma on purpose, and that is not an afterlife you want to go to.
I think Szass Tam has it all planned and figured out, the guy is an evil genius in the truest sense, and hes had who only knows how long to make his plans and put his agents where they need to be.
I would be VERY surpraised if this guy who has been the de facto ruler of the nation for centuries AND a genius hadnt factored in all the possible repercussions of a civil war in Thay.
He knows full well Thay has torked off alot of people and nations over the years, and seriously wouldnt be dumb enough to start the ball rolling if he wasnt prepared for what comes next.
The trick would be cutting the Alaor off from the mainland.
Btw, with 'invading' I didn't mean 'obliterating' or 'conquering' Thay. If Aglarond takes the western reaches of Thay up to the First Escarpment down to River Laprandar, it will be enough to control further incursions.
Attacking the Alaor would be really dumb. The Thayvian navy might be not sure who's orders to follow, but it will defend it's homebase.
The trick would be cutting the Alaor off from the mainland.
Btw, with 'invading' I didn't mean 'obliterating' or 'conquering' Thay. If Aglarond takes the western reaches of Thay up to the First Escarpment down to River Laprandar, it will be enough to control further incursions.
If Agralond actually does "invade" Thay. It would not be due to the efforts of their pathetic army of forest peasents. It would be more like The Simbul pulling off the biggest munchkin move of the century and throwing the equivelent of a magical hydrogen bomb at Thaymount and wiping the entire plateau off the map.
And if Thay falls, angry mobs will just storm the enclaves and burn all the Red Wizards on the stake just out of spite.
Perhaps, of course one has to ask why Thay needs a Navy anyway when it is far more economical and practical in the long run for them just to hook up two way portals between Thay and their Enclaves.
By navy do you mean ships, since a navy usually doesn't deliver cargo for commercial purposes (most of the time anyway, not sure about places like Sembia). Also, portals don't actively defend against attack unless by defend from attack you actually mean leave multiple instantaneous entry points into the heart of your empire. ;)
Really, if Mulhorand wanted to wipe out the Alaor it shouldn't be that difficult. All it would require is one epic level wizard who was willing to work on creating a spell that would basically create a Tsunami. Cast said spell and send the Tsunami over to the Alaor - problem solved.
Sure, it might kill everyone or most people there, but it's not like that really matters. All's fair in love and war. ;)
Everyone is -STILL- over looking the drow directly under Thaymount waiting for a chance to strike. Check out pages 175 of the Unapproachable East (under Mount Nirg) and page 180 of the Underdark to read more about Undrek'thoz, the Segmented City.
Oh please,like Aglarond or those simpleton witches from Rashemen could ever rival or pose a threat to Thay ;P.Thay is eternal.
eternally doomed
Aglarond - Just wave a plaster-cast copy of Elminster's ding-A-ling in the Simbul's face and you turn her into pavlov's dog. Threat over.
Mulhorand - potentially the only real threat, but since they will be busy for the next few decades assimilating their new territory, I doubt they have the extra time or resources at the moment.
On the other hand, Szass is one of my favorite FR villains, and I don't take him as a Manshoon-class moron. If he's moving to take full control of Thay, its a good bet that he has a VERY well thought out plan that includes ALL of the variables mentioned, and will probebly use those very same variables to help him in his machinations. He wouldn't have made his move unless he though he had a VERY good chance of succeeding, and I wish him the very best.
I wouldn't mind seeing a new sauron-class villain in the Realms, a'la Iuz from GH, but I doubt that's the direction WotC will take him if he does win.
Maybe the Red Wizards will finally fall from power and there will be some kind of democratic government raised in Thay.
Yes... and they will call their new 'free' country.... AMERICA!
A powerful scheming elite class, clandestine operations in other nations, desire for total economic control, and the nation is lead by an evil shriveled-up little ego-maniac with fetid skin stretched over his putrid tissues.
Yep, thats America, alrighty. :P
Aglarond - Just wave a plaster-cast copy of Elminster's ding-A-ling in the Simbul's face and you turn her into pavlov's dog. Threat over.Yes... and they will call their new 'free' country.... AMERICA!
A powerful scheming elite class, clandestine operations in other nations, desire for total economic control, and the nation is lead by an evil shriveled-up little ego-maniac with fetid skin stretched over his putrid tissues.
Yep, thats America, alrighty. :P
AMERICA, AMERICA, oh your corruption stands for thee. And rot thy good, with imperialhood, from waste pit to festering wastepit:D
Oh, that is exactly how I imagine post-cataclysm Thay will look like...;)
Aglarond - Just wave a plaster-cast copy of Elminster's ding-A-ling in the Simbul's face and you turn her into pavlov's dog. Threat over.
Ouch.
then the second one to shove the whole lot into the plane of shadow.
both spells done before in netheril, so they should still be possible with epic magic.
I wonder,if the Simbul would atack Szass Tam first,would the other chosen help her when she will be crushed by him?
If the Simbul ends up in a magical duel with Szass, my money's on the one who isn't dead, and who also has access to Silver Fire.
On the other hand, Tam's probably planned for that contingency and taken steps to either avoid it or ensure that the deck is stacked in his favour, though avoiding it would be the smarter of the two moves.
If the Simbul ends up in a magical duel with Szass, my money's on the one who isn't dead, and who also has access to Silver Fire.
On the other hand, Tam's probably planned for that contingency and taken steps to either avoid it or ensure that the deck is stacked in his favour, though avoiding it would be the smarter of the two moves.
Ol' Simby may have Silver Fire, she may have more spells than you can shake a stick at too, but what she has in innate ability, Tam more than makes up for in pure...
- Manpower. Necromancy is scary, Thay is big. You can only kill so many people before you need to recharge, also... liches, also... vampires, also... necromancy. There isn't much that stays dead when you're controlling that kind of power.
- Foresight. Realistically, there is nothing Szass Tam hasn't thought through. He's been lotting for ages, taking everything into consideration. Plus, he doesn't stay dead, and nobody is getting a hold of his phylactery.
- Firepower. Mechanically speaking, Netherese Artifacts (at least two), a Staff of Power, a ring of Three Wishes, and a Quickened|Maximized Energy Drain, as well as access to an ungodly amount of powerful magic item caches. All things considered, he'd be hard pressed to be hard pressed in any conflict or situation imaginable.
- No adventurers. While not a positive or negative in the battle between Szass and the Simbul, it should be noted regardless. The only thing that could throw a monkey wrench in his plans would be a group of adventurers. Considering this is a novelization about the famous and powerful in Faerun, any cool adventurers are immediately considered expendable cannon fodder (read a few Salvatore novels for further details).
My money is on Szass Tam.
Still, I don't think the two will actually fight at all. I can see Tam striking a deal with simby. In exchange for her help, she gets to kill all the enemy wizards she wants and Tam's "new thay" woudn't bother Agralond anymore (Tam has never really been interested in conquest, mostly mecatilism).
To sum up what is happening, think Palpatine taking the Republic, and forming his empire. That is what this book is basically mimicking, and how this series will most likely end.
Personally I think it is about freaking time they got their act together. Delaying this outcome for story purposes makes no sense. If the realms were happening in real time, this outcome would have already come and gone.
For a nation wanting to rule the world, they have made little progress in that direction under an argumentative council.
As for the thoughts of simply attacking the Alaor with ships. Have fun. I'll laugh at the first fleet to try and match firepower with a full Thayan naval defense, all toting Bombards, and the Red Scourge leading the first wave.
Ever looked at that ship? Well let me sum it up. If you don't have a wizard on board, you're royally F**Ked.
To the storm front suggestion, don't you think that for a country known to have completely magically controlled their weather for an indeterminate amount of time, and who are known for their powerful circle storm magic, just might be able to counter such an event. How many epic wizards are there statted that can even cast epic magic? Of all the enemies of Thay how many have yet succeeded in even hurting them mildly, let alone single handedly destroying them?
Maybe some people should take a break, read the novel, and come back with fresh eyes.
Still, I still say if Greenwood writes the next novel and The Simbul shows up, Thay is done, period...
Umm...I have read the novel, and I still say Thay is sc*wed, not doomed persay, but it will be pretty messed up in the end. I am all for the slaves taking over though:D
Still, I still say if Greenwood writes the next novel and The Simbul shows up, Thay is done, period...
And if RAS writes it, Drizzt will walk away with a lich head slung over his shoulder.
It's a sad state of affairs, when Author character favour, dictates the outcome of something like a an entire nation of casters.
Simby however, has a very long history with the wizards, if you know what I mean;)
Nah, RAS dosen' really like Drizzt anymore, I think he is actually tired of writing Drizzt.
Simby however, has a very long history with the wizards, if you know what I mean;)
I know, it was an example of how otherwise insignificant individuals can be pushed beyond their normal abilities, when written by their creating author, or an author has adopted them/ favours them.
But given Mystras mandate that the Simbul cannot attack Thay for no reason, and Elminsters appointment to protect it from her, it is unlikely that even Ed would have her "clean house".
the very thought of that makes me crack up.Tam: "Darn it, simby is ruining my country, and I'm not even ensured for all that military equipment she destroyed."
El:"No worries my rotting and hygenically-deifcient friend, Elminster's Warding Service is here for you. We pay off all your previously troublesome bills and protect against Rashemis, Agralondians, Mulhorandi, and of course, insane silver-haired sorceresses who run around in a loincloth. Just pay 500 gold and send to Ye Old Windmill in Shadowdale. We accept Visa, Mastercard, but NOT American Express (this aien't america buddy)."
Tam: "Yay, now all my problems will be solved."
Fine Text: note, in any case your own country falls into internal turmoil on your own part and you get attacked from all sides, the contract does not extend itself to such situations and we will happily sit back and laugh our asses off as you get smothered in silver fire. No cashback and your funeral services will not be covered.
Still, I don't think the two will actually fight at all. I can see Tam striking a deal with simby. In exchange for her help, she gets to kill all the enemy wizards she wants and Tam's "new thay" woudn't bother Agralond anymore (Tam has never really been interested in conquest, mostly mecatilism).
Very good... you are learning, grasshopper... ;)
Szass, unlike most of FRs 'idiot villains', is brilliant, and he would NOT make his move unless he had a contingency for every possible event. Thay has been moving toward peace and economic trade when dealing with their neighbors, all of which has occurred since Szass has come into power. Thay has been making intelligent decisions since he's been around, instead of the reckless ones of the past (with a few minor exceptions). Szass learns from his mistakes, and grows as an individual, unlike the other 'cookie-cutter' bad-guys we see around the Realms.
If anything, he has probably signed secret deals with Rasheman and Aglarond and will use them to his benefit, if anything. Believe me, he made damn well sure "all his ducks were in a row". ;)
In fact, he could very well use a Mulhorandi invasion to his benefit, unifying Thay in the process.
Elminster protecting Thay?
Tam: "Darn it, simby the ruining my country, and I'm not even ensured for all that military equipment she destroyed."
El:"No worries my rotting and hygenically-deifcient friend, Elminster's Warding Service is here for you. We pay off all your previously troublesome bills and protect against Rashemis, Agralondians, Mulhorandi, and of course, insane silver-haired sorceresses who run around in a loincloth. Just pay 500 gold and send to Ye Old Windmill in Shadowdale. We accept Visa, Mastercard, but NOT American Express (this aien't america buddy)."
Tam: "Yay, now all my problems will be solved."
Fine Text: note, in any case your own country falls into internal turmoil on your own part and you get attacked from all sides, the contract does not extend itself to such situations and we will happily sit back and laugh our asses off as you get smothered in silver fire. No cashback and your funeral services will not be covered.
While it is comical, it remains fact :P
if you consider the fact that in a way casting a spell is a form of worship to mystra, then it would not do to allow the symbul to go around randomly barbecueing such a high concentration of people who cast spells.
El being her other half has quite a lot of influence with her, let's face it he's probably the only person who could talk her out of frying the lot of em if she got it into her head to do so.
elminster protecting thay is quite sensible really.
if you consider the fact that in a way casting a spell is a form of worship to mystra, then it would not do to allow the symbul to go around randomly barbecueing such a high concentration of people who cast spells.
El being her other half has quite a lot of influence with her, let's face it he's probably the only person who could talk her out of frying the lot of em if she got it into her head to do so.
That's actually the reasoning summed up right there :P
Okay, maybe she won't smite him, but really - she probably could if she wanted too. And I don't think Elminster could really stop her, if anything he'd try and reason with her and if he couldn't do that, he'd let the dice fall where they may.
...but does ANYONE here believe that the Simbul is just going to sit over in Aglarond and do nothing?
That's actually the reasoning summed up right there :P
haha told you i wasn't as stupid as i seem.:P
I just don't see the Simbul sitting back in Aglarond and watching a Thayan Civil War without taking action. That just isn't her style. She is too unpredictable and crazy, and even if Elminster tried to stop her, no one stands between the Simbul and the death of a Red Wizard... no one! *SMITE!* :P
Okay, maybe she won't smite him, but really - she probably could if she wanted too. And I don't think Elminster could really stop her, if anything he'd try and reason with her and if he couldn't do that, he'd let the dice fall where they may.
...but does ANYONE here believe that the Simbul is just going to sit over in Aglarond and do nothing?
Yes.
Without her powers, the Simbul is nothing, and if she (one of Mystras chosen) goes against the goddess, Mystra just might decide to strip her of anything of use, and let her die at the hands of her betters :P.
The Simbul in most respects is no better than many of the Zulkirs. She takes what she wants through power, and only gets away with what she does for the same reason. Were she without Mystras favour, she keep her mouth shut, and thumbs tied a lot more.
Yes.
Without her powers, the Simbul is nothing, and if she (one of Mystras chosen) goes against the goddess, Mystra just might decide to strip her of anything of use, and let her die at the hands of her betters :P.
The Simbul in most respects is no better than many of the Zulkirs. She takes what she wants through power, and only gets away with what she does for the same reason. Were she without Mystras favour, she keep her mouth shut, and thumbs tied a lot more.
True, but if Mystra does that, Simbul could just jump on over to ye ole shadow weave and then go back to slaughter some more wizards:D
Not that I don't think she's easy to now, but it's all a matter of perspective.
Most of her power is as a Sorc, and as a blaster. Shadow weave is a poor choice for damaging things, and with no Mystra backing her, I think she'd be fairly easy to rout then :P
Not that I don't think she's easy to now, but it's all a matter of perspective.
Still, Shar, knowing the power of Simby as a caster and the potential she would bring to her and her weave as a chosen, would obviously lavish magical gifts of all sorts upon her. Plus, I would assume a caster of Alassa's prowess would not have too much difficulty adapting her casting style a little so that she can pursue her lifelong fetish, slaughtering those old, bald Egyptian men in red robes:P
I'm sorry Red, but I find it hard imagining any Red Wizard beating the awesome simbul:D
I think in a fair unbiased fight, she'd be a lot less impressive :P
Mystra would also be taking away Silver Fire, but the Simbul has Spellfire... and she might have to breathe, sleep and eat although this is debatable due to her nature.
Basically the biggest things she is getting from Mystra as a Chosen is a +10 to Con and Silver Fire. Everything else all the rest of the power she wields is innate and not connected to her Chosen Status.
A Simbul fall to the Dark Side would be cool, though. The Simbul is abandoned by Mystra and Elminster because she put the nail in the Red Wizard's Coffin... converts to Shar and the Shadow Weave, and decides to Conquer Aglarond AND Thay... uniting them under her terrible rule as the Witch Queen of the Shadow Weave...
I might actually begin to like her then. :P
That's because she is played up as unbeatable
I think in a fair unbiased fight, she'd be a lot less impressive
Agreed. Though I think in a straight up unbiased fight she'd still kill Tam. He could tip the scales in his favor though if he was prepared for it. However, the "unbeatable" Simbul is one of the reasons I dislike her.... and most of the other Chosen.
Agreed. Though I think in a straight up unbiased fight she'd still kill Tam. He could tip the scales in his favor though if he was prepared for it. However, the "unbeatable" Simbul is one of the reasons I dislike her.... and most of the other Chosen.
Honestly, I'd like to see Tam take her out for that very reason.
We lost Blackstaff, one of the only chosen I ever liked and got 'em replaced with... a confused kid? I burn, I pine, I perish. Tragic.
Give one of those invincible ultra-chosen a death worthy of being recorded. Like Szass Tam mopping the floor with her (her hair is strangely appropriate/suitable for the task), then going back to running his country.
Most of her power is as a Sorc, and as a blaster. Shadow weave is a poor choice for damaging things, and with no Mystra backing her, I think she'd be fairly easy to rout then :P
A bit of retraining focusing on illusions like shadow evocation and shadow conjuration and you can get yourself a brand new Shadow Simbul.
A bit of retraining focusing on illusions like shadow evocation and shadow conjuration and you can get yourself a brand new Shadow Simbul.
Ahh, new instead of blowing the red wizards up with spellfire she can confuse them with her new brand of kickass and have them blow each other up. At least make them so terrified that they woudn't be able to move anymore.
Now for the new look. I was imagining some pretty sexy leather tights with thin straps and dark makeup...
Ahh, new instead of blowing the red wizards up with spellfire she can confuse them with her new brand of kickass and have them blow each other up. At least make them so terrified that they woudn't be able to move anymore.
Now for the new look. I was imagining some pretty sexy leather tights with thin straps and dark makeup...
The Shadow Simbul, if based off of shadow evocations and conjurations, doesn't need to confuse people, she could blast them just fine, though instead of actually setting them on fire, she uses shadow stuff to make them think they're on fire.
That's because she is played up as unbeatable :P
I think in a fair unbiased fight, she'd be a lot less impressive :P
Precisely, as statted with silverfire, she's pretty much laughable. Good luck trying to find unbiased opinions:P
Democracy is something we've never seen in the Realms, and I doubt we ever will, since only Elminster and a few of his apprentices who've visited Ed will even know that such a concept exists. I think the closest we can assume they'd get is a Greek-style kingdom, with democratic voting amongst the philosophers and nobles to determine laws and strategic actions, with the King having to ratify any changes, and veto right to say "Bull!"
Hmm... okay, so that's pretty close to what we have (had) in the United States, really.
Shutting up now.
Honestly, I'd like to see Tam take her out for that very reason.
We lost Blackstaff, one of the only chosen I ever liked and got 'em replaced with... a confused kid? I burn, I pine, I perish. Tragic.
Give one of those invincible ultra-chosen a death worthy of being recorded. Like Szass Tam mopping the floor with her (her hair is strangely appropriate/suitable for the task), then going back to running his country.
All this talk of a worthy death makes them sound like one of those Slayer Dwarves from Warhammer.
I can just see her with a big spikey silver mohawk:PHonestly, I'd like to see Tam take her out for that very reason.
We lost Blackstaff, one of the only chosen I ever liked and got 'em replaced with... a confused kid? I burn, I pine, I perish. Tragic.
Give one of those invincible ultra-chosen a death worthy of being recorded. Like Szass Tam mopping the floor with her (her hair is strangely appropriate/suitable for the task), then going back to running his country.
You can say that again.Though I don't really like any of the chosen,at least some of them act like someone of their inteligence should act,and are at least sane.Szass Tam is a far more superior character than the Simbul will ever be.
Though I think in a straight up unbiased fight she'd still kill Tam. He could tip the scales in his favor though if he was prepared for it.
That's more or less the way I'm looking at it. Simby outmatches him in a straight fight, but Tam didn't get to where he is by spending his time fighting fair. He'll have plans and contingencies to ensure that such a confrontation goes in his favour, Chosen status or not. Whether those plans involve items, stacking the battlefield in his favour, or just plain avoiding the Simbul, I would be extremely surprised if he didn't take what she can do into account.
Never knew the Simbul had spellfire, though. I was fairly sure that Shandril and Elminster were the only ones "currently alive" in the Realms who could use it.
at least some of them act like someone of their inteligence should act,and are at least sane.
Knights of Myth Drannor > all. Their antics are possibly some of the best parts of the novels I read that include them. :D
Precisely, as statted with silverfire, she's pretty much laughable. Good luck trying to find unbiased opinions:P
There are a lot of dissapointingly statted NPC's ;) So at he moment, I am reffering to the sole use of them via novels.
As to a shadow Simbul, while it might prove an interesting change, it is as unlikely, as her being able to whollop Thay in any incarnation, and equally so of simply walking through Tam like a gentle breeze on a warm day.
Overall to the point of the original thread, I think Tam will take what he deserves, having accomplished quite a bit in his brief stint thus far, and when he does, I pity not Thay, but the surrounding nations, who will now have to deal with a sole uncontested ruler.
Show
Blackstaff, Halaster, possibly Elminister in the near future, so why not Tam too?
There are a lot of dissapointingly statted NPC's ;) So at he moment, I am reffering to the sole use of them via novels.
As to a shadow Simbul, while it might prove an interesting change, it is as unlikely, as her being able to whollop Thay in any incarnation, and equally so of simply walking through Tam like a gentle breeze on a warm day.
Overall to the point of the original thread, I think Tam will take what he deserves, having accomplished quite a bit in his brief stint thus far, and when he does, I pity not Thay, but the surrounding nations, who will now have to deal with a sole uncontested ruler.
Actually, I would like that to happen. Tam has been one of the villains in the Realms that has actually had a brain and used it. He has obviously worked for what he has recieved and he has probably worked on this plan for centuries.
A united Thay however, is something that will not last long. Knowing Thay's nature and the state it will be in after such a bloody civil war, it woun't be long till some bloke whacks Tam and the country falls into anarchy. Plus Mulhorand has been eying that country for a long time and would obviously try to retake it. The surrounding countries might secretly support one side or another based on their political interests and who they would like to see in power, but most likely they would fund some covert-gurrela splinter-cell of slaves to revolt and slaughter the Reds. And guess who will most likely be at their head...;)
Actually, I would like that to happen. Tam has been one of the villains in the Realms that has actually had a brain and used it. He has obviously worked for what he has recieved and he has probably worked on this plan for centuries.
A united Thay however, is something that will not last long. Knowing Thay's nature and the state it will be in after such a bloody civil war, it woun't be long till some bloke whacks Tam and the country falls into anarchy. Plus Mulhorand has been eying that country for a long time and would obviously try to retake it. The surrounding countries might secretly support one side or another based on their political interests and who they would like to see in power, but most likely they would fund some covert-gurrela splinter-cell of slaves to revolt and slaughter the Reds. And guess who will most likely be at their head...;)
Thus far it has been a relativly simple fight, where he is moving and taking at a whim. Should it maintain this pace, or even escalate slightly, the downsides to the battle will be minimal, when compared to losses suffered in the salamander wars, wars with Rasheman, and Aglarond, and the invasion of Impiltur.
This conflict can't possibly result in anything worse than what they have done to themselves already, and survived.
1- Szssas seem to have trouble to understand why living being can be totaly again the idea to ally with undead (as show toward the end of the book).
2- It look like Thay may become a land of undead citizens, if so begin to happen, how you bet that everyelse realms around will ally to defeat Szssas?
3- It will be the perfect time for the Symbul to get pregnant (all it take is a little intervention from Mistra) and to stop her from going into Thay for a time.
4- What clerical organization will trust Szssas after his traison again the fire priests?
5- Do love will be a blind spot for Szssas Tam. He don't seem to recall how it can affect the reactions of the living ones.
6- Do Szssas have faith in any god? Personaly I don't thing so, he must see him-self as a god in making.
Eridalafar
Some wild thinking:
1- Szssas seem to have trouble to understand why living being can be totaly again the idea to ally with undead (as show toward the end of the book).
2- It look like Thay may become a land of undead citizens, if so begin to happen, how you bet that everyelse realms around will ally to defeat Szssas?
3- It will be the perfect time for the Symbul to get pregnant (all it take is a little intervention from Mistra) and to stop her from going into Thay for a time.
4- What clerical organization will trust Szssas after his traison again the fire priests?
5- Do love will be a blind spot for Szssas Tam. He don't seem to recall how it can affect the reactions of the living ones.
6- Do Szssas have faith in any god? Personaly I don't thing so, he must see him-self as a god in making.
Eridalafar
1. Yeah intelligent undead seem to have some psycological hangup that makes them incapable of understanding why most people wouldnt want to be within 100 yards of an undead, much less within arms reach of them.
Course there are exeptions, just look at the Lichloved feat from book of vile darkness (and yes it is what you think it is :D )
2. Hmm a necropolis nation, now wouldnt that be everyones ideal neighbor? If that happens I can easily see all of the realms boardering Thay at least join together to keep the deadies inside Thay at least.
The clergy of Selune, Lathander and Kelemvor (to name a few) would cry "JIHAD!" if they heard about a whole nation full of undead and start sending their people there an mass.
3. Personally I dont think being pregnant would be enough to keep the Simbul from blowing up red wizards. She wouldnt much care if they had a pulse or not, as long as they were moveing she would keep peppering them with spells, and shes just crazy enough to try to give birth while incinerateing undead, heck she'd probably keep a "summon midwife" spell handy in case that happens
)4. You mean there were any clerical groups who trusted him before?
5. Love conquers all :inlove: course against an undead uber wizard its going to have its hands full, hope cupids got a few arrows of undead bane handy.
6. I dont recall ever hearing about Szass Tam ever paying homage to any god, and is he did I dont think it would be any more then "Hey mystra! thanks for the magic, in return I wont desintegrate that mouthy cleric of yours....I'll just polymorph him into a parot and teleport him to a small island where he can live out his avian life in harmony".
Some wild thinking:
1- Szssas seem to have trouble to understand why living being can be totaly again the idea to ally with undead (as show toward the end of the book).
2- It look like Thay may become a land of undead citizens, if so begin to happen, how you bet that everyelse realms around will ally to defeat Szssas?
3- It will be the perfect time for the Symbul to get pregnant (all it take is a little intervention from Mistra) and to stop her from going into Thay for a time.
4- What clerical organization will trust Szssas after his traison again the fire priests?
5- Do love will be a blind spot for Szssas Tam. He don't seem to recall how it can affect the reactions of the living ones.
6- Do Szssas have faith in any god? Personaly I don't thing so, he must see him-self as a god in making.
Eridalafar
1) Very possible. Of course, he goes to great lengths to avoid appearing in his true skeletal appereance when around the living, so he's not incapable of realizing that the living have aversion to undead. I think that in Tam's case it's more that he is confused as to why the living wouldn't want to ally with him, considering that he is arguably the most powerful wizard in Thay and is usually polite and civil in his dealings.
2) I don't think so. While Tam is certainly necromancer extraordinaire, he does recognize the weaknesses of the undead (it even gives him some humour to watch how many of his undead servants squirm when brought to more or less close proximity with fire) and he doesn't seem like someone who would want to rule over a kingdom of undead. He loves Thay first and foremost and above all else, not necromancy.
3) I cannot say, since I've never paid great deal of thought to the Simbul, who seems too flippant to be an effective ruler and whose time is usually consumed by her extensive research into matters arcane.
4) Hardly one, although only a foolish clerical organization would have trusted him much in the first place. Although servants of Bane might react favourably to him since he turned the tables on the church of the Firelord, perhaps allowing room for the followers of the Black Hand to spread.
5) Very possible. But Tam is extraordinarily active for a lich of his age and spends much of his time dealing with living beings, so he cannot have forgotten the meaning and the implications of love completely. I would say that more than his undead nature, his long career as a zulkir and as a Red Wizard has corroded his grasp on such humane and "soft" feeling.
6) I was under the impression that the Zulkir of Necromancy paid at least lip service to Bane.
Some wild thinking:
1- Szssas seem to have trouble to understand why living being can be totaly again the idea to ally with undead (as show toward the end of the book).
2- It look like Thay may become a land of undead citizens, if so begin to happen, how you bet that everyelse realms around will ally to defeat Szssas?
3- It will be the perfect time for the Symbul to get pregnant (all it take is a little intervention from Mistra) and to stop her from going into Thay for a time.
4- What clerical organization will trust Szssas after his traison again the fire priests?
5- Do love will be a blind spot for Szssas Tam. He don't seem to recall how it can affect the reactions of the living ones.
6- Do Szssas have faith in any god? Personaly I don't thing so, he must see him-self as a god in making.
Eridalafar
1. Hmm, lets see. Yeah, consitering that most undead would come up, hug you, then drain your life force, I am not suprised even a evil nation like Thay has problems with them in mass. Szass is a smart lich, he knows these stereotypes, that is why he is playing this to his advantage like the evil genius he is by trying to appear human to the populace (which see enough creeps everyday already that the idea is not completly off). Unfortunatly, like every perfectly logical evil scheme, Szass's is doomed to fail at the hands of some half-wit hero who was just "somehow" at the right time in the right place.
2. No no no, there are plenty of nice friendly nations that would much rather enslave undead to do their bidding rather than destroy them, lets say..an entire shadow enclave of them;)
3. The Simbul probably does men over every night and then commits magical abortion.
4. Hmm...The pretty much dead clergy of Orcus??? Oh, the clergy of Kiaransalee might want their help, especially with the whole drow deicide that is going on.
5. Love, no, Szass would never think something as puny and insubstantial as that would overcome his "master plan." Of course, no evil villains ever see it coming;)
6. Yeah, Szass "worships" a god. Its called the one that gives me lots of cash, magic, and support. The he ditches it when he has sucked them dry and moves on to the next
Just a little cynical humor from your favorite chosen of Asmodeus/Karsus,:P
It can no more than turn a 1st level fighter into a 1.1st level character. LOL.
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And Chosen of Asmodeus/Karsus... Impressive.
I can just imagine the coolness of a character like that.
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My opinion on Szass...
Failure!
He'll be defeated by the rest of the Zulkirs(they likely aren't exactly worthless themselves, and they should also all have been preparing for this inevitability)... not that I've read the novel.
.. after that.
Imagine Szass Tam and all his necromancers moving in with Larloch. Might finally give Larloch a large enough, intelligent, and non-research dedicated, force, to do something dangerous to the world.
(of course, coming in after a major failure, is not really something you want on a resume... unless Tam actually plans failure, in accordance with Larloch's wishes, and Larloch's long term plans...)
If I were Larloch, I would know that Tam is still quite valuable, and destroying him would (besides being at least somewhat dangerous) be a waste of his effort.
If Larloch wants power over Thay, then Tam's failure would mean reworking his plans(if not supporting him, when things started to look ugly.. which could be very bad for the Zulkirs of Thay)
What we know from realmslore:
1) Szass Tam and Larloch have recently (in the past decade) become relatively friendly... enough that they're willing to share artifacts.
2) Velsharoon was mortal and hated Szass Tam (they are described as enemies)
3) Szass Tam is now the Zulkir of Necromancy in one of the biggest bastions of necromantic power in the realms.
4) Velsharoon is now the God of Necromantic Magic
5) Velsharoon has assumed the alias of the god Mellifleur (former god of liches).
6) Mellifleur was around during the ToT, so its safe to assume he had to take an avatar form, which would have been a lich.
7) Larloch's crypt is a site containing the most number of lich spellcasters per square foot than anywhere else in the realms.
8) Velsharoon was one of the original "red wizards" that came from Halruaa, and he was a "renegade red wizard"... which would somewhat imply he didn't agree with the rulership by Zulkir council that eventually formed.
9) With many of the clergy of Kossuth destroyed by a giant flaming explosion, there does appear to be a power vaccuum amongst the religions.
10) The "undead factory" that Tam was basing in was in the Sunrise Mountains. The segmented drow metropolis of Undrek'Thoz is beneath Thay. Beneath the Sunrise Mountains is the city of Vrasl, which is a city focused on necromancy, where the citizens are outnumbered by their undead servants.
Some (wild ?) suppositions that could be drawn here that would be interesting:
1) Velsharoon may not like Tam, but as god of necromancy, he can't strip the man of his power for using it. However, if Tam's leadership grows weak, then Velsharoon might be able to put another individual into the position who is more likely to encourage the worship of Velsharoon as a state religion.
2) Tam may be well aware of supposition number one, and this is a means to keep himself in power to keep Velsharoon from attempting a coup through a follower.
3) If Mellifleur had taken an avatar, what are the odds that it was amongst Larloch's liches? We know that he didn't take over Tam or any of the other very well known liches during that time. It would be a very good supposition, considering he'd also have lots of "lay worshippers" as well nearby.
A) Could it be that Larloch found out about Mellifleur's avatar, something happened between Mellifleur, Larloch, and Velsharoon... and somehow Mellifleur was entrapped in his own "mortal" phylactery and stolen away by Velsharoon?
B) Could it be that if A is true, then perhaps that's why Larloch and Tam came in contact (Larloch wanting information from Tam on Velsharoon while he was still mortal, without letting Tam in on why). Did Larloch hope to do what Karsus could not and prove that LARLOCH was the greatest Netherese that ever lived?
C) Assuming A is true again, with Velsharoon ascended, does Larloch now have any reason to continue his friendship with Szass Tam?
4) The cult of Kossuth is now crippled. There may even be questions amongst the church as to whether Kossuth would be happy if his clery were resurrected, since they died in a gigantic ball of flame. What religions might rise up in the wake of this?
A) Might the church of Velsharoon become promoted for the strength of necromancy? I don't see Orcus' worship growing extremely strong, because Thayans aren't in the habit of worshipping demon lords (seeing them as simply powerful beings that they might even conquer).
B) Might we see a resurgence in Banite worship? Especially with the Banites having some strength in Unther, they might see working themselves deeper into Thay's power structure as a better use for their time than trying to take Gilgeam's place.
C) What if anything exists between Vrasl and the Thayan school of necromancy? Might Kiaransalee actually gain some human followers, or the drow take up worship of a human deity. Or might there be some silent warfare occurring? Might the commoner in Thay be led to believe that the base in the sunrise mountains had nothing to do with the school of necromancy ("no, those red wizards were disguised drow"), but rather an invasion planned by Vrasl. There's lots of subplots that could be happening here as well.
Phillip aka Sleyvas
I predict that Eltab, Lord of the Hidden Layer, is going to take the opportunity to rip Szass a new one
This seems like the most plausible outcome thus far.
A trilogy about a Simbul/Tam reckoning against the Red Wizards would prove most interesting.
If he agreed to allow her to kill his rivals, in exchange for a mock battle against her, in which he seemingly defeats, or drives her off, he could increase the publics support for him, while never having to lift a finger to remove any against him. Not to mention an alliance for Aglarond, however temporary, would see to it the Simbul did not involve herself unbeknownst to Tam.
Mystra has to be sick to death of an entire society of wizards that refuses to pay homage to her. Shar has to be eyeballing the schools of Illusion and Necromancy (the ones with most advantage in using the Shadow Weave). Bane wants Thay to advance the cause of tyranny, not degenerate into internal chaos. Cyric loves chaos, especially if everyone involved looks to him for help. Lathander is going to want a fresh start for Thay. The Mulhorandi pantheon is going to Thay to collpase, if for only to buy time for Mulhorand to finish annexing Unther so it can build the strength to take back Thay. Kossuth is just likely to say "scorch 'em!".
Tam's only hope of success to eliminate the zulkirs entirely and establish Thay as a monarchy. The local tharchions could be given direct control of their tharchs reporting directly to Emperor Palpatine....er....Szass Tam himself.
I don't see him killing everyone in Thay. The living have their uses. You can use them to make more undead. Plus, most undead aren't really self-sustaining and need to devour flesh, suck blood or drain life energy from somewhere.
The interesting question is, could this be an opening for Mystra and Azuth to gain market share in Thay? Would desperate zulkirs accept help from her if it were offered? What about the other gods?
This could go so many different ways it's delicious.
Anyway, Tam is dead bait. He is brilliant, but with all of these powers (and the simbul) watching Thay like hungry starved wolves, Tam is really gonna have to pull a high one to get through.
Still, Telemont, Larloch and Ioulaum should get together somewhere (probably Ioulaum's place since he's basically a stationary mass these days) and throw back a few pints of whatever it is that people that are undead or made of shadowstuff drink. They could swap memories and tales. Make jokes about how fat Lady Polaris got near the end. It could be such fun.
Now the Szass Tam/Velsharoon thing also has potential. It has to stick in Tam's ribcage that Velsharoon is a demigod. So what can he do about it? How about try and get an entire nation to worship him and make a bit to steal Velsharoon's portfolio?
That would be much more Tam's speed and all he need do is get rid of the other zulkirs. A unified Thay under a single homegrown patron deity would be a formidable force.
The challenge is going after the zulkirs without the Simbul and he posse nailing him while he's distracted.
Put Aumvor, Larloch and Ioulaum together with Telamont, and the resultant force is probably enough to over power Faerun by itself.
Until Ao himself comes down...
Yeah, Larloch learned from Netheril's fall that being conservative and devoted to Mystra is a good way to preserve his power.;)
Larloch and Telemont are hanging out and give Ioulaum a call...
L: Hey Iou! Whatcha doin' with yourself man?
I: Floating in a pool of stagnant brine, what else?
L: New arthritis therapy eh?
I: (irritated) No you bonehead! I am an undead elder brain!
L: (covers the handset and turns to Telemont) I think the old guy's got Alzheimer's dude!
T: (Rifling around in the larder) Seriously?! Hey you got anymore shadowslug in here?
L: Well, he's saying something about his old brain being dead.
T: (snorting) Please! He was more senile than Reagan even before Karsus's crack up!
I: I HEARD THAT! You tell that shadow-of-his-former-self that at least it doesn't take me 1,600 years to come up with a Shadow Walk spell! The easiest plane in the cosmos to get in and out of and he gets trapped in there like a kid in a refrigerator!
L: (laughing) Dude! He soooooo has your number!
T: F*** off you walking Halloween decoration! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
I: He left eh? Never did stick around much. So Larloch, what's with this weight problem of your's? You're like, all bones man.
L: I am a lich! I do not have a weight problem!!!
And on it goes...
Why a Netherese alliance would never work:
Larloch and Telemont are hanging out and give Ioulaum a call...
L: Hey Iou! Whatcha doin' with yourself man?
I: Floating in a pool of stagnant brine, what else?
L: New arthritis therapy eh?
I: (irritated) No you bonehead! I am an undead elder brain!
L: (covers the handset and turns to Telemont) I think the old guy's got Alzheimer's dude!
T: (Rifling around in the larder) Seriously?! Hey you got anymore shadowslug in here?
L: Well, he's saying something about his old brain being dead.
T: (snorting) Please! He was more senile than Reagan even before Karsus's crack up!
I: I HEARD THAT! You tell that shadow-of-his-former-self that at least it doesn't take me 1,600 years to come up with a Shadow Walk spell! The easiest plane in the cosmos to get in and out of and he gets trapped in there like a kid in a refrigerator!
L: (laughing) Dude! He soooooo has your number!
T: F*** off you walking Halloween decoration! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
I: He left eh? Never did stick around much. So Larloch, what's with this weight problem of your's? You're like, all bones man.
L: I am a lich! I do not have a weight problem!!!
And on it goes...
:heeheeL: I am a lich! I do not have a weight problem!!!
Aumvor: Like hell you don't. I'm a lich and I've kept my girth, even added a few stones to boot!
About Larloch: I seriously wonder why these guys bother sticking on Toril, knowing that the magic here can malfunction and screw them up.
Well, the Nethernese had tried traveling to other prime materials before, but it kind of turned out not for the best.
Besides, Toril is a high-magic world, unlike Eberron and Krynn, and there is more of a wealth of powerful magic here. You would be a fool to leave that behind. Besides, the weave is plenty more stable than many other magical systems on other worlds. It actually has maintenence.
But migrating between worlds can get ugly. For starters you have to be able to carve out a place for yourself and the natives (mortal and divine) might not take a high view of interlopers. Eberron doesn't have the abundance of epic spellcasters that Toril has, but their articifers can mass produce magic items at a rate that would make even the Red Wizards' jaws hit the floor. Krynn and Oerth have local gods that might not be so generously inclined towards invaders. Other worlds have similar issues.
All-in-all, things aren't that bad on Toril. Even now Mystra is almost criminally indulgent of misuse of magic (partly because other gods pressure her to be). She does clean up after most Weave-damaging screw-ups, even big ones like Karsus's.
Now the Szass Tam/Velsharoon thing also has potential. It has to stick in Tam's ribcage that Velsharoon is a demigod. So what can he do about it? How about try and get an entire nation to worship him and make a bit to steal Velsharoon's portfolio?
That would be much more Tam's speed and all he need do is get rid of the other zulkirs. A unified Thay under a single homegrown patron deity would be a formidable force.
The challenge is going after the zulkirs without the Simbul and he posse nailing him while he's distracted.
Exactly, we can come up with some pretty fantastical and far reaching plots, but this one is pretty basic.... and it absolutely fits. The two didn't like each other as mortals.... I'm thinking Tam's not going to like bowing down to the man just because he performed some magical ritual.
Some add-ons to this though... Eltab is ****** at Tam for his attempt, but if Velsharoon was one of the original red wizards (which is heavily implied), then Velsharoon was probably in on the epic magic ritual used to bind Eltab . I don't quite know where this might go, but it probably sticks in Eltab's craw a bit. The question becomes which side would he work against (if not both). Or would he just figure, rebuild my base, let them fight it out, and come in afterwards.
necromancers animating anything bigger than mouse corpses and (probably) not cleaning up after themselves.
You'd be surprised what you could do with undead mice . Back in 2nd edition, invisibility, see through undead eyes, & imbue undead with spell ability made for some very interesting explosions
Why a Netherese alliance would never work:
Larloch and Telemont are hanging out and give Ioulaum a call...
L: Hey Iou! Whatcha doin' with yourself man?
I: Floating in a pool of stagnant brine, what else?
L: New arthritis therapy eh?
LOL, thanks I could use a laugh
A demi lich level 37crActually, he would demolish Tam heads up
So no.you're applying game mechanics to someone's artisitic license...which should be revoked if you don't mind the pun.
Byers has taken a very feasible plot but implemented the kickstart to the war in a retarded fashion. very unrealistic even by fantasy terms. mostly fluff and filler, not alot of military theory or political research and the bulk of the conflict is major battle and a bloody coup de tat. what the Hell?
i liked some of this text and his other works as "okay" but overall, it just doesn't feel right or believable. thrown together a bit quickly. too quickly i might add...
Tamm's scheming and initial designs are relatively unchecked. he kills off 2 zulkirs relatively easilly despite 1 being a complete badass. i mean seriously, Thrul getting defeated so easilly doesn't seem feasible. he's a tharcion and zulkir. he didn't just get that overnight, you know? it made for too easy writing. all this fuss just to make an air of fear/confusion...ala WTC attack and fallout. a close mirror, no? big stretch there. there would've been a national outcry after just 1 was killed, but 2? effectively killing a huge chunk of the legislative/executive body. not real.
with such a high concentration of mages/spies in one land and all the rampant paranoia they have of each other, it would've been revealed quickly or at least monitored during the first upheaval. it was glossed over too quickly/carelessly. even w/ the truth, few would've been satisfied and inquisitions would've flared up. he just used the old standby, villian underestimates the hero clause. so hackneyed and cliche'.
sadly, this paranoia/vigil is also the same principle that they are not a world power. unable to work together, always infighting and watching each other, afraid to cede power or appear weak. helps keep Thay as is, so they now offer the trade enclaves which is sound reasoning. nj to the designers that came up with that.
basically, Tamm's big for power is a rip off of Star Wars which was so hoaky to begin with. the jedi, these super intuitive types, failed to make even a modicum of efforts to know what was up. and when they finally do, the employ a fledgling kid that's already unbalanced, an unwise gamble. wtf? the zulkirs have perhaps more power and the moral flexibility to use it unfettered. it just doesn't seem realisitic.
all the posturing and bull$hit politics (not realistic either) is/was junkfood for the reader. this type of coup de tat would've taken a while to implement if it were truly to be secret, and even then, all the divinations, conspiracy theories, paranoia...i mean, c'mon. surely he would've known they would turn down the lawful, "vote me emergency powers/total sovereignty" thing. why not just strike immediately? it's like he was sabotaging his own efforts. makes no sense even for the benefit of the masses. Thayan magocracy is fascist. it's not like the ppl have a choice, you know?
and how do you raise a gigantic undead army w/out anyone noticing? especially so close to a hostile nation's border. the griffon air cav would constantly be reconoitering these arreas and Thayans are no strangers to weird magic/crazy $hit. all the slaves being trafficed there? there would be bills of sale, all manner of evidence. you gotta equip these ppl too...
again, national paranoia/watchfulness mimicks the early days of the Patriot Act. surrounded by hostile nations, run by an evil cabal of 8 (let's not even begin on the rushed-just go along w/it, Samas Kul's ascension farce), and being the highest concentration of arcane magics in the realms...all these things spell constant vigiliance. ultimate fascist nation.
which is why it's (thay) such a good dynamic for FR. they are a good dramatic foil; provide endless plot hooks and so on, the concept is fresh and original. they keep each other in check though. this is why they never conquered their neighbors. they just kinda' maintain. IMO anyway.
as for the Civil War, that's open to alot of speculation:
Mulhorand is mired in Unther, would take a while to move their army.
-naval assult isn't really an option. consider all the trade enclaves and the merchant ships. they would have frigate escourts and red wizards on every military vessel. plus they employ sea devils, water elemental, etc. not a good idea.
-aglarond, um maybe. most of the power rests w/ the Symbul which is dangerous to have all you muster in 1 punch, not dividing it up among army
-rashemen, probably the most legitimate claim to revenge. still, mostly unorganized barbarians and the witches are decidely more powerful on native soil.
wherever he (byers) is going w/ this is uncertain. the idea behind a civil war was novel and highly likely given all the power hungry types, it's just the way he employed it was poor writing and little to no research IMO...
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1st. Khelben dies, and in the process brings back an ancient elven city.
2nd. Gareth Dragon's bane may be in the process of annexing Vaasa into Damarra, and creating a new kingdom called the Bloodstone Lands.
3rd. The Imaskari capital is back in the material plane, and some of the deep Imaskar may be making a return to the surface.
4th. Sembia may be on the brink of a civil war, and the Shades are making their move on it. The shades may also be getting a 2nd enclave.
5th. Halaster is dead, and undermountain is now without it's master.
6th. Shadow Dale is conquered by the Zhents.
7th. Thay is involved in a nasty civil war that has the potential to change the course of the nation forever.
8th. Mulholand is of course tring to annex Unther.
9th. Samaster is dead, which means that the Cult of the Dragon is probably going to go through some interesting changes.
2nd. Gareth Dragon's bane may be in the process of annexing Vaasa into Damarra, and creating a new kingdom called the Bloodstone Lands.
3rd. The Imaskari capital is back in the material plane, and some of the deep Imaskar may be making a return to the surface.
4th. Sembia may be on the brink of a civil war, and the Shades are making their move on it. The shades may also be getting a 2nd enclave.
5th. Halaster is dead, and undermountain is now without it's master.
6th. Shadow Dale is conquered by the Zhents.
7th. Thay is involved in a nasty civil war that has the potential to change the course of the nation forever.
8th. Mulholand is of course tring to annex Unther.
9th. Samaster is dead, which means that the Cult of the Dragon is probably going to go through some interesting changes.
What held the Red Wizards back the most, eversince their founding, have been the Red Wizards themselfs. The Zulkirs always held themselfs in check. None could strike against one of Thay's common antagonists without fearing his brethren would use the opportunity to take on him. When this civil war ends, no matter with which outcome, this balance could be destroyed forever. I guess Simbul should prepare for what is to come from across the borderline. Somehow I have the feeling the Witches of Rashemen are gonna be toast soon.
Spoilers below.
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Szass Tam has taken control of Thay, driving the remaining zulkirs away after ten years of civil war. Thay is ravaged to an extreme, but the other countries are apparently rather ill-equipped to attack the country of the Red Wizards when the Spell-plague hit the world. Tam, using his intellect and rather dubious deal with Bane, has somehow learned how to use magic without the failure effects inherent in the collapse of the Weave.
Your thoughts? What do you think will happen next?
I wouldn't set Tam up as uncontested. Bareris with mirror, Bane (not done yet), and the remaining Zulkirs aren't done yet. Tam expended all his power to get where he is. I am curious about the book he aquired. Is it the equivalent of the nether scrolls, giving him even more arcane knowledge.
Well, what else could it be?
The question is: where did he get it?
Now I know I'll seem biased here, as we all know I like Thay and its ruling class, but come on, do the designers hate the guys in Red so dang much that they sit and plot humiliating defeat after humiliating defeat for them?
I mean I was well beyond the boundries of believabilaty regarding the Necromancers with full magical control not simply attacking the hulls of the ships and sinking them, but to have the bard save the day like that really irked me.
Call me old fashioned, but I don't think anyone, EVER, would enjoy or believe a story wherein a quadriplegic halfing somehow rolls a marble at a castles wall, and the earth explodes because of it. So how then does this little piece of ludicrous sneak through the cracks?
If I was a new arrival to the Realms via novels, I'd never EVER be able to take the Thayans seriously.
BAH.
-RW
woohoooo!
were off to see the wizzard,
the horrible wizzard of thay!
where's me axe it's red wizzard bashing time, should be able to cause a nice bit of havoc.
anyone coming?
hi ho hi ho
its off to thay we go
with blades and bows hi ho hi ho
Irrelevant, but can anyone tell me in which novels Szass Tam appears in except the Haunted Lands?I want to see s much of this guy as possible
He shows up in The Crimson Gold, and probably others (though that's what I can think of off the top of my head).
I think the better question is how in the name of Ao's arsehole did a nobody bard, row a dingy into a divinely powered Epic spell, spouting nothing but a song of failed love on his lips, and manage to counter it?
Because he's the big damn hero of the story?:P
OK, that wasn't much of an answer.
I think the better question is how in the name of Ao's arsehole did a nobody bard, row a dingy into a divinely powered Epic spell, spouting nothing but a song of failed love on his lips, and manage to counter it?
I actually liked it. It wasn't that Bareris was incredibly powerful, just that he found a weakness that his particular skill set and emotional state were perfectly suited to exploit.
I had much more of a problem with Szass Tam summoning a freakin' god! That better have just been a piddling avatar. Greatest necromancer in Faerun or no, that's just crazy.
I must say, though, I'm intensely curious as to what Tam has planned and how it all fits together. Another year, though! (Even if a lot of it will probably be revealed by the state of Thay in 4E.) Argh! Type faster, Richard Lee Byers!
My only other real disappointment with the book, which I really loved overall, is Lauzoril. I love The Simbul's Gift and he's just not as awesome here as there. I don't remember him being "priggish" so much. Maybe it's just the image he cultivates for his fellow zulkirs. Yeah, that's it! *LOL*
A Wizard can conjure up Demons and Devils rivaling the gods in power, so why not summon the gods themselves?
After all, as per the spell "Gate", the called being is in no way obligated to answer, it simply does so of it's own volition.
As for it being interesting, perhaps to some, but let's ask a hobo to disable a Nuclear weapon with his eyes closed, no hands, and from 30 feet away. Oooo, but to make the comparrison viable, he knows to cut the red wire and even has a pair of snips in his pocket. Doesn't matter that they may all be red. or that he has no way to open the casing. But that's ok, it makes things "interesting".
-RW
The gods have long been establish as nothing more than freakishly powered outsiders.
A Wizard can conjure up Demons and Devils rivaling the gods in power, so why not summon the gods themselves?
After all, as per the spell "Gate", the called being is in no way obligated to answer, it simply does so of it's own volition.
I suppose you're right. It still bugged.
That said, spoilers are still a good bet for those who haven't. ;)
-RW
Well, considering the Realms is going POL...
I'd say it's going SOL.
And it makes sense that a bard would be the one to find the weakness. Or rather, anyone other than a wizard. Szass Tam's enemies were weakened, but they were still powerful. He would therefore have summoned a monster that would stand up well against their power. And remember that Lallara tried to exploit the same weakness, but was unable to.
Sauron created his ring from his own essence. Pouring the majority of his power into it, he sought to make himself invulnerable. In this sense, like a lich, he created a Phylactery, that he might live on regardless of what transpired. Unlike a lich however, he made the mistake of keeping the ring on him at all times, in the middle of a war no less.
As for Achilles, depending on which account you chose to back, his heel was a mistake. He was very much a mortal, who simply got lucky enough to have been dipped in the Styx. Unfortunately, his heel was forgotten in the process, and thus we have the tale.
But that is not the case here. It is neither a living thing, nor by the rules something plausible. Perhaps there are still some who lack the insight to see through this type of cheese, and for them huzzah, they will love this ending, but for most this is going to come off as the continued nonsense most have come to expect from wizards.
For those now who live in reality, are well read, and know the systems rules, this ending was to be expected of a child at best, but by no means an author backing a major game setting such as this.
It is not possible, believable, interesting, or awe inspiring in the least to see a divinely powered epic spell be stopped by a bard singing.
Perhaps in your games this type of thing is a common occurrence, and I say kudos for being able to draw pleasure from it. however I'd encourage you not to expect this type of thing from to many other gamers, as while we respect the old myths, we don't necessarily want to see someone slay Ao with a plastic spoon on a daily basis.
Sorry, just not interesting.
-RW
P.S. This was not the only problem with the book, just the largest and worst in a long line of bothersome dribble.
You want a believable weakness, find Tams phylactery and try and destroy that. But you can't compare Achilles heel, or Saurons ring to an Epic spell and a bard singing a diddy in a dingy.
Sauron created his ring from his own essence. Pouring the majority of his power into it, he sought to make himself invulnerable. In this sense, like a lich, he created a Phylactery, that he might live on regardless of what transpired. Unlike a lich however, he made the mistake of keeping the ring on him at all times, in the middle of a war no less.
As for Achilles, depending on which account you chose to back, his heel was a mistake. He was very much a mortal, who simply got lucky enough to have been dipped in the Styx. Unfortunately, his heel was forgotten in the process, and thus we have the tale.
But that is not the case here. It is neither a living thing, nor by the rules something plausible. Perhaps there are still some who lack the insight to see through this type of cheese, and for them huzzah, they will love this ending, but for most this is going to come off as the continued nonsense most have come to expect from wizards.
For those now who live in reality, are well read, and know the systems rules, this ending was to be expected of a child at best, but by no means an author backing a major game setting such as this.
It is not possible, believable, interesting, or awe inspiring in the least to see a divinely powered epic spell be stopped by a bard singing.
Perhaps in your games this type of thing is a common occurrence, and I say kudos for being able to draw pleasure from it. however I'd encourage you not to expect this type of thing from to many other gamers, as while we respect the old myths, we don't necessarily want to see someone slay Ao with a plastic spoon on a daily basis.
Sorry, just not interesting.
-RW
P.S. This was not the only problem with the book, just the largest and worst in a long line of bothersome dribble.
Maybe the Bard's song was really annoying, like... Barny's theme music annoying... Yeah, I got nothing ether. If he was a high level bard I could see it, kinda... But otherwise, I've got nothing.
Fiction is different, because it can stay closer to what would be "real" for the world. Not needing the abstraction of hit points, for instance, because you can actually describe the effects of fatigue and blood loss. The novels are set in the "reality" the game is trying to simplify, and have always done things that are mechanically impossible or difficult. The first Drizzt/Artemis fight, for instance, where every single attack is parried would have been almost impossible to replicate under the 2e rules of the time, and even harder in 3e. It didn't make the story less believable. In fact, exactly the opposite.
When I'm reading a novel, I don't in the least care about the stats of anything. I care whether it follows the logic of the established world, and the logic of the particular novel. This ending does. We'd already established that Aoth can see the truth of things. He finds the truth of the monster, which is also a weakness. They try one way to exploit it. They fail. Not having anything else to lose, they try another way. That one works. Everything is internally consistant.
And don't try the "if you don't agree with me you're stupid" argument, it just means you really don't have a clue what you're talking about. You didn't like it. Fine. You can say you didn't like it. You can't say anyone who did like it is a pathetic moron who doesn't have the least clue what they're talking about, especially over the internet where you don't actually know any of us. I liked it. More than that, the three other people I've spoken to face-to-face who have read the ending also liked it. Debate on the merits of the argument, don't try to just sling insults. The first might actually convince me. The second just confirms what Mark Twain said about opening your mouth.
Don't you mean AWOL?
Nope, SOL.
Red Wizard: I disagree. Bareris's defeating of the monster is in direct keeping with the western tradition of hero tales and their modern revivals. This is Achilles, invulnerable except for his heel. This is Sauron, who can only be defeated at Mount Doom. An unbeatble enemy with a single weakness, which the hero discovers or exploits at the climax of the story.
Yeah, but Thinblade, this is Red Wizard you're talking to. Get it? He's going to be biased towards the Red Wizards.
For what it's worth, I haven't read this novel yet, so I have no opinion (and I don't think either opinion is "wrong").
P.S. This was not the only problem with the book, just the largest and worst in a long line of bothersome dribble.
What else did you not like about the book? I'm just curious.
As for Tam winning... besides the fact that..
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we know from the new Drizzt book, that Thay is screwed and gone in the future.
we know from the new Drizzt book, that Thay is screwed and gone in the future.
And the Zulkirs are the leaders, Bareris (and Aoth) just happens to be our window into the world. It's easier to write for characters that are of middling power than for the world-shakers. Which is one of the reasons the book doesn't focus as much on the Zulkirs.
Though I agree that I would have liked to see more on-stage Zulkir-level pyrotechnics.
As for Tam winning... besides the fact that..Show
we know from the new Drizzt book, that Thay is screwed and gone in the future.
And the Zulkirs are the leaders, Bareris (and Aoth) just happens to be our window into the world. It's easier to write for characters that are of middling power than for the world-shakers. Which is one of the reasons the book doesn't focus as much on the Zulkirs.
And (based on my knowledge from the first book) those two characters are also more sympathetic protagonists than any of the Zulkirs would be.
Rino: Other things that annoyed me were necromancers with full use of magic, not simply sinking the wooden ships, and Szass Tam not taking the time from his not so busy schedule to exicute all his opponents generals. He showed time and again the flawless ability to bypass wards, and find anyone he wished, yet he couldn't seem to kill a couple of rambunctious nobodys galavanting about the plains.
Hmmm, I wonder if that's on the list of things Evil Overlords should try to avoid doing.:P
I hated how Byers had to talk to me like I was simple sometimes, forever reminding me about how Brightwings Talons and beak had long ago been enchanted...
Hmmm, was that mentioned over and over again in the same novel? I was going to say, it's likely that some things are repeated so someone who picks up this novel without reading the first one knows what's going on (Rich has said before, on CK, that he writes each book in a way that allows anyone who picks it up to understand it, even if the book is part of a series).
It's not I hate seeing the red cloaks lose, only them losing in situations they should not. If you're not going to tell a story about them in the same manner they are presented in lore, why bother at all?
In this case however, it makes it hard to accuse me of picking favourites, as both sides wear the Red Robes. ;)
Not accusing you of anything, I was actually trying to defend you a bit, based on what I know of your tastes.
Like I said, I haven't read the book for myself yet. Perhaps when I read it, I'll come out with a similar opinion to yours.I don't like the Zulkirs being killed off, either, but that's more a problem I have with the Spellplague, the changeover to 4E (for the Realms), and (to a lesser extent) the seeming need for every trilogy to inflict major changes on the setting and kill off some of the more interesting NPCs. I'm reluctant to blame the author for that stuff, because it often isn't the author's idea.
Lauzoril at least, has been interestingly portrayed before. I would've liked him leading the cause against Szass Tam. I think part of the problem also lies in Szass Tam apparently beating the other zulkirs at their own games. I wouldn't expect the entire order of Illusionists for example to fail to even recognize an illusion cast by Tam, as an illusion.
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Lower level characters are fine normally, when the story half-represents a campaign PCs might be playing, but I think in this case, letting the greater powers battle it out and not put it in the form of regular D&D novels would've been a better idea... One could've thought of it as a high level campaign led by Lauzoril or Tam, as opposed to a campaign focussing on Bareris and his band of misfits.
Lower level characters are fine normally, when the story half-represents a campaign PCs might be playing, but I think in this case, letting the greater powers battle it out and not put it in the form of regular D&D novels would've been a better idea... One could've thought of it as a high level campaign led by Lauzoril or Tam, as opposed to a campaign focussing on Bareris and his band of misfits.
Almost near the end of the book. The dream vestige just turned the tide for Tam and the southern army is on the run and parleying with a city whose turned allegiance. I would have liked a little more insight into the Zulkirs as well, but I also understand the book can only be so long. However, I find it interesting that people still consider Aoth and Bareris and Malark as "middling" characters. Politically, they may still be middling characters. However, from a character level standpoint, I see 10 years passing warring against powerful undead nemesis' and necromancers. From a power standpoint, I have to wonder if these characters couldn't theoretically have gotten to a point to be able to challenge the Zulkirs in a one-on-one fight (though the Zulkirs would never allow such). Remember, Zulkirs are working through minions more and having to govern, so they aren't necessarily always the most powerful of their school (just the one most power hungry and willing to tie themselves to a position). I don't recall anything so far that's really been able to define for me WHAT level the characters are in the new book. I do know Malark did some kind of massive damage hit to take out Dmitra in one blow (not TOO hard to do to a wizard who may have already suffered damage in a battle though... especially since she wasn't noted as extremely high in level, though assuming she'd gained a few levels since 1372).
Phillip aka Sleyvas
I am not sure if this is an agreement or an argument. :P
So I'll just say that, my point was a Bucket of water should no more counter a Fireball, than a persons song should counter an Epic Spell of divine origin. ;)
-RW
I'm not to whatever section you guys were arguing about yet. Thus, I'm lightly skipping through this so as to not ruin the read yet. However, when I read something about buckets of water stopping fireballs, I figured that needed some clarity. Of course, a lake of water should have an effect on fireballs.... again, not sure what your argument was about.
I will say a song could counter an epic spell of divine origin, if the song were dispel magic for instance. There might be some other instances.
However, from a character level standpoint, I see 10 years passing warring against powerful undead nemesis' and necromancers. From a power standpoint, I have to wonder if these characters couldn't theoretically have gotten to a point to be able to challenge the Zulkirs in a one-on-one fight (though the Zulkirs would never allow such).
Eh, I wouldn't consider it a given (although it is possible). It's been many years in-setting since Drizzt was first introduced, and he's still about the same level as he was years ago--still not an epic level character.
I haven't read the book, however, I hope Thay is demolished. Or if not Thay, then the Red Wizards exterminated and Thay taken over by The Simbul's city. It would make the place more hospitable.
Well, I wouldn't bank on that happening.
Additionally Szass Tam now sits as the head regent of Thay, meaning no more infighting for power.
-RW
-RW
Darker Thay, or a more boring Thay?? If Thay wants to be darker, they should take lessons from the Drow.
And have Drow Red Wizards? Thanks... I have a hard enough time sleeping in peace as it is.
Darker Thay, or a more boring Thay?? If Thay wants to be darker, they should take lessons from the Drow.
Well that is yet to be seen now isn't it. Not that I'd wager you care one lick, but I'll humor you your continued need to be petty.
I for one had no qualms with Thay as it was. Just because a nation is feared, does not mean it has to be a desolate land scape of eerie silence, and shambling undead, which unfortunately is the direction the area seems to be heading.
There was a rich and diverse culture there, rife with plot hooks that even the most amature DM could make use of. And I rather liked the mercantile front that saw Thay expanding into other lands.
A missed lore chance I think.
-RW
Since commenting in my defense isn't allowed, lets have it your way.
What can the Drow teach the Thayans?
Keep in mind that they Keep drow slaves, and practise magic that virtually all but the Hulruaans fear.
-RW
Very well.
Since commenting in my defense isn't allowed, lets have it your way.
What can the Drow teach the Thayans?
Keep in mind that they Keep drow slaves, and practise magic that virtually all but the Hulruaans fear.
-RW
I bet they were only able to obtain commoners and cast-offs from the Illithid society. The Red Wizards could never get Drow Nobles. The Red Wizards are not that feared. The Drow still pose a significant threat to nearly every Race.
And I'd challenge you to find a reference that says "Thay is a society that isn't that feared".
I am not contending the Drows ability in either intimidation of magical capability, nor saying they are less than the Thayans (Though numbers wise they very much are).
The Drow are very much the silent blade the average person fears, not the brute force the Thayans can bring to bear should they need.
However you are making the counter claim, so I'd like to see where you opinion comes from.
Reference material if you please. ;)
-RW
Red, I'm with you on this one.
First of all, a zulkir could absolutely get a drow noble as a slave if they wanted to. Someone like Mythrell'aa (sp? afb) might decide it would add some spice to an otherwise boring mind slave.
Second, for most of Thay's history there's been a faction devoted entirely to researching new magic and seeking out magic unknown to them. Raiding drow towers (remember, there's a drow nation with some fairly advanced portal magic under Thay and the surrounding area... definitely worth taking) is one way of increasing your knowledge.
Third, That IS that feared. Certainly by all of its neighbors (with the possible exception of Mulhorand, simply because they're that arrogant), and also by most people further west who give it some thought. It's one of the reasons people don't worry too much about the Simbul. "Sure, she's crazy. But she keeps Thay at bay, and so keeps them from sweeping over all of us with their dark magics." (I know I'm butchering the quote, but that's the gist of it, I think it was from Seven Sisters)
And how, exactly, did mind flayers enter the conversation?
Opinion over fact for the former.
And I'd challenge you to find a reference that says "Thay is a society that isn't that feared".
I am not contending the Drows ability in either intimidation of magical capability, nor saying they are less than the Thayans (Though numbers wise they very much are).
The Drow are very much the silent blade the average person fears, not the brute force the Thayans can bring to bear should they need.
However you are making the counter claim, so I'd like to see where you opinion comes from.
Reference material if you please. ;)
-RW
You have yet to provide material for your so-called 'facts'. The Red Wizards may have brute force, yet they lack the cunning that the Drow have. Which is why a Drow raid will have more success than what the Red Wizards could ever hope to attempt.
I have been looking at the FRCS and it states that they have slaves from a dozen lands, though it does not specify that they have Drow slaves. Care to show proof that they do??
First of all, a zulkir could absolutely get a drow noble as a slave if they wanted to.
Yet, there is no proof. So, unless they can outwit the Drow in a raid or whatever, please refrain from coming with words that have no fact to back it up.
Thay, on the other hand, actually lies on the surface. And the fact that they have "slaves from a dozen lands" means they have slavering bands throughout Faerun, either directly sponsored or through intermediaries. Thay is known as one of the largest slave-holding lands, and any free person fears being enslaved.
To give you some proof, consider the Salamander Wars. Here was Thay, launching a successful (as opposed to all the failures in Rashemen and Aglarond) invasion, using humans, monsters, undead, and extraplanars, culminating in the conquest of large stretches of land. You don't see the drow acting that opening very often.
Now, to be fair, there are a few places where you are no doubt correct. Calimport, for instance, fears the drow (who they've lost hundreds of thousands of people to in the Night Wars) more than they do the Red Wizards (who are a continent away).
You have yet to provide material for your so-called 'facts'. The Red Wizards may have brute force, yet they lack the cunning that the Drow have. Which is why a Drow raid will have more success than what the Red Wizards could ever hope to attempt.
I have been looking at the FRCS and it states that they have slaves from a dozen lands, though it does not specify that they have Drow slaves. Care to show proof that they do??
I wasn't stating anything as fact, so not providing material doesn't seem to be in contradition to what I was asking of you. ;)
I suppose though however I can provide proof for you at my earliest convinience. It's no trouble once I am home from work.
As for your initial comment, again, speculation without basis. The Red Wizards have both numbers, magical supremacy and tactical ability on their side.
On the rare occasion they are foiled, it is due to the meddling of powers greater than themselves. After all Mystra keeps them in check. Which god worries or cares over much about the drow?
Please don't list their patron deities, as the question pertains to why the god watches them. The drow certainly don't pose a threat to Toril as a whole, where as it has been stated that should the Thayans ever unite under a single banner, the lands surrounding them would fall relatively quickly*.
Additionally, time and again the Red Wizards have exibited far reaching schemes, spanning several cities and organizations. This can be read most predominantly in the seven sisters novel.
-RW
* Sadly this is 3.x. 4E turns the world on it's head.
As for your initial comment, again, speculation without basis. The Red Wizards have both numbers, magical supremacy and tactical ability on their side.
The Drow hold a better tactical advantage than the Red Wizards do. I also wouldn't count the Drow out when it comes to magical supremacy. They can and most likely will trump Thay if it came down to it. Oh, Thay united under one banner would not overthrow Toril with relative ease. They would be eradicated by forces more powerful than them. Dwarves, Humans, Elves, etc would be united under one banner. Thay knows this and they would not be that stupid to even try it.
Oh, I guess Thay's magics won't count for much, due to the Spellplague. I highly doubt they'll be immune to that.
They just use superior forms of it in the form of blooded, demons, and undead.
Also, they have full control over their slaves, as opposed to the Drow uprising fiasco.
One should also remember, that due to the attention Drizzt has brought upon the Drow, they have seen more sources than the Thayans put out, so much of Thay's true power remains hidden from the casual fan.
-RW
As do the Red Wizards.
They just use superior forms of it in the form of blooded, demons, and undead.
Also, they have full control over their slaves, as opposed to the Drow uprising fiasco.
One should also remember, that due to the attention Drizzt has brought upon the Drow, they have seen more sources than the Thayans put out, so much of Thay's true power remains hidden from the casual fan.
-RW
Drizzt is one Drow. Not many. So, using him as a source of attention is a sad attempt to bring into an arguement.
As for the 'fiasco', The Silence has ended. The Drow can still trump the Red Wizards due to the cunning and the tactical knowledge and their magical supremacy. The Red Wizards do not posses inherited Spell Resistance as the Drow do.
Drizzt is one Drow. Not many. So, using him as a source of attention is a sad attempt to bring into an arguement.
Perhaps you missed the point.
The only reason the Drow are as popular as they are is due to him.
Were it not for Drizzt, the Drow may very well have seen as little material as Thay has.
As for the 'fiasco', The Silence has ended. The Drow can still trump the Red Wizards due to the cunning and the tactical knowledge and their magical supremacy. The Red Wizards do not posses inherited Spell Resistance as the Drow do.
Again, this is your opinion without an cited material. Now you are just taking what I say, and changing the words "Red Wizards", for "Drow". :P
I will give you that they have spell resistance, but how does that really matter with a group that focuses on being able to bypass such things?
The Red Wizard PrC gives caster level progression in the form of Spell power. Not to mention the numerous feats, and spells that add to this.
In this case, it is similar to saying "Yeah but we are hiding in a glass fortress". As soon as someone brings stones, the protection it gave hardly matters.
-RW
As for Drizzt bringing popularity to the Drow, that is only slightly true. Drizzt brought popularity to the fact that there can be goodly Drow. As for the Drow themselves, they have more material than you will openly admit.
The Drow also have Feats and spells to counter anything that is thrown at them. Their spell power is also potent, so it is idiotic to count them out just because you want to claim that the Red Wizards are superior in all things. Granted, the Drow do have weaknesses, but like I said, they do have Feats to counter these things.
Yet, you still underestimate the Drow and their ability to overcome what most are not able to.
Want to quote where I underestimated them?
You overestimate what the Red Wizards can and can't do. The Drow are more powerful than you give credit for.
Want to quote where I don't give them their credit?
I am not trying to sell them short. I fully realise they are a potent adversary. However from the lore that is available, they are hardly a comparable menace to the Red Wizards IMO.
Additionally, this isn't about what I think, it is about what you think. Your argument was that you were just giving your opinion. I asked you to elaborate on it.
My comments were regarding the novels, not Thay as a whole, so what I think one way or the other has never been the point of contention.
As for Drizzt bringing popularity to the Drow, that is only slightly true. Drizzt brought popularity to the fact that there can be goodly Drow.
This is proved incorrect by such things as "Drizzt Do'Urdens guide to the Underdark". Before Drizzt, the Drow were greyhawks brainchild. RAS took them and made them a (nerd) media focus.
I love the Drow, and the character, but even I am not going to deny this fact.
As for the Drow themselves, they have more material than you will openly admit.
...they have seen more sources than the Thayans put out, so much of Thay's true power remains hidden from the casual fan.
Am I not openly admitting that they have many sources? Perhaps I was unclear there.
I don't see a reason to deny them having a great deal of material to their name. That doesn't change the fact that when compared source for source, the Red Wizards still appear the stronger on paper, despite the gross inequality in material presented.
The Drow also have Feats and spells to counter anything that is thrown at them.
Last time I checked, the ability to imporve ones SR is limited to a bump of 1-2 with feats. Hardly comparable to the RW PrC Spell power whith grants +5 to CL.
Their spell power is also potent, so it is idiotic to count them out just because you want to claim that the Red Wizards are superior in all things.
I am not counting them out. But I am affraid you are confusing what I am talking about.
The Red Wizard PrC offers a Spell Power ability which adds to the CL check used to overcome SR (Among other things). Now with a Red Wizard, casting assay resitance, at 15th level, you already get a roll of 1d20 + 30 to overcome SR. Since a Nat one doesn't matter, and a Drow of ECL 15 only has SR 12 + level, the DC to pelt him is only 25.....Which means the RW basically ignores what you tout as their greatest ability.
Granted, the Drow do have weaknesses, but like I said, they do have Feats to counter these things.
Sorry, but there just isn't a feat called "Please let me live because I am a drow". :P
-RW
Now, we can go about this all day. We have pointed out strengths and weaknesses. So, how about we call it as it is and wait to see if the Drow and the Red Wizards have at it and see who wins. I know that it won't be the Red Wizards.
For all your words, you still underestimate them as a 'menace' as you like to call them.
Again, I'm not underestimating them. I think they are a very potent adversary. But I also think that you give them far to much credit in most cases.
In this case specifically, even if we were to grant them the title of "more cunning", how would it honestly apply?
They are out numbered. Out 'gunned'. Their chief resistance has been proved useless. They can't sneak into a home thats warded. A frontal assault is impossible against a foe that can force a dozen bottlenecks. The list can continue, but I think you get the idea.
The Drow are good at hiding in their holes, but take them out, and they have little left upon which to prove a problem.
Numbers may mean nothing in tunnels, but the surface lacks that distinct feature.
Thay may, just may have power, but all that power counts for nothing without the cunning and tactics to execute that power, which the Drow have in Spades.
You keep saying this, but have yet to show even one spot where it is true. ;)
Again I'll reference the novel Silverfall. In there you see a supposed Drow plot in which they were infiltrating the city. However, when one delved deeper into this, you discover that in truth, Thay is behind the scheme.
One point for Thay from what I can tell, to the zero you have referenced. ;)
Now, we can go about this all day.
We can?
My posts seem to be getting longer, and I have yet to crack a source book? Yours on the other hand..... ;)
We have pointed out strengths and weaknesses. So, how about we call it as it is and wait to see if the Drow and the Red Wizards have at it and see who wins. I know that it won't be the Red Wizards.
lol. You want a "Lets agree to disagree, because we both know you're right" response? That's stretching don't you htink? :P
-RW
The Drow are good at hiding in their holes, but take them out, and they have little left upon which to prove a problem.
Thats funny. Not. They are well versed in tactics of the surface and have shown adaptation. Refer to one of the books from The Legacy of the Drow series. Not sure which book, but they literally owned the fighters that went to the aid of Mithril Hall.
They are out numbered. Out 'gunned'. Their chief resistance has been proved useless. They can't sneak into a home thats warded. A frontal assault is impossible against a foe that can force a dozen bottlenecks. The list can continue, but I think you get the idea.
That is where you underestimate them. The Drow as a whole are not out 'gunned'. Menzoberranzan and their fodder combined will topple Thay's attempt at a raid or intricate assault. As a Race that has lived for countless centuries and has seen more battles than Thay could possibly imagine, it is safe to say that the Drow are master tacticians when it comes to the tactics of the Red Wizards.
Looks like the Drow have two points and the Red Wizards have a mere half point.
You want a "Lets agree to disagree, because we both know you're right" response? That's stretching don't you htink?
I want nothing from you, but a civilized debate. Whats stretching it is your ability to try to come up with a superior argument. Whats not stretching it is that the Drow have been around longer than the Red Wizards.
And in so doing, they pointed out a very big weakness of the drow: their inability to work together for extended periods of time. That, coupled with their weakness in light (downgraded in 3e, gone entirely in 4e? Who knows), gives them a *severe* disadvantage fighting a war on the surface. They can't even get organized enough to launch an invasion, most of the time, and even when they do, they tear themselves apart.
Now, to be perfectly fair (which I don't particularly feel like at the moment, since you've done nothing but go "Drow are cool! Drow kick everyone's butts!" to all of RW's reasoned arguments), this is exactly the same problem the Red Wizards have, and it leads to exactly the same sorts of consequences. However, they have mounted more victorious campaigns in recent memory (Salamander War again) than the drow.
P.S.
The human fighters did sustain heavy casaulties during that fight as well. They did not leave that fight unscathed.
Thats funny. Not.
I don't recall it being meant to be.
It is a legitimate remark, like it or not. The Drow are great at fighting in tunnels, where an invading force is required to fight single file against a determined wall.
However, this system is shown to be fallible when they compete with others equally versed in tunnel warfare. IE the Dwarves of Mithril Hall.
Now, I am not sure why the Thayans would want to chase the Drow down a hole to begin with, but given they have access to both Drow and Dwarven slaves, I think it is highly unlikely that they are not well versed in the required counter tactics for close quarter fighting.
Assuming they couldn't find a solution without them.
They are well versed in tactics of the surface and have shown adaptation. Refer to one of the books from The Legacy of the Drow series. Not sure which book, but they literally owned the fighters that went to the aid of Mithril Hall.
Well since you are actually trying to provide material, I think it only fitting I point out all the flaws with this reasoning.
First and foremost, the novel in question is "Siege of Darkness", third in the quartet of novels. Next, the part in question regarding the Riders of Nesme is a poor example at best of how Drow tacticss are superior, and I'll tell you why.
The riders, while trained to some degree, are for the most part little more than heavily armored peasants. They had no magic (Which Berg'inyon had in the way of his desiccating lance, and +1 swords) , and were constrained to a horizontal terrain (Which again, the Drow bypassed via the riding lizards).
Additionally, the Humans were caught in a small canyon alone, filled with fog against a foe who had not only numbers, but the element of surprise from above. These aren't brilliant tactics, this is simple warfare math.
This said, the Drow are masterful in the art of the blade, training from a young age to be perfect killing machines. So, the idea of them losing one on one to an average soldier is somewhat foolish at best
So their ability to best inferior foes under those conditions is not surprising, and should not be grounds for any defense when considering a greater opponent such as Thay.
That is where you underestimate them. The Drow as a whole are not out 'gunned'.
How do you figure that a Nation of Wizards, specialized in specific schools of magic don't out gun an opponent who distributes their focus across several factions. IE Arcane, Divine, And Melee?
I am sorry, but that one is a given, even if you want to ignore the rest. ;)
Menzoberranzan and their fodder combined will topple Thay's attempt at a raid or intricate assault.
First let me begin with a "Why would Thay attack Menzoberranzan?".
There just is no justifiable reason for them to fight a turtling opponent, let alone the fact that Menzoberranzan is just to insignificant to matter on any front but final domination.
Next, let me point out for you two numbers. An I'll be fair and use the FRCS for you. ;)
First, lets give you Menzoberranzan (Page 212). We'll include everyone from commoner to High priestess. The population is.....Drum Roll please.......32,000!
Wow, impressive. Maybe I was wrong?
No not likely.
Thays population (page 205)...Bigger Drum Roll..........4,924,900!!!
Wooooowwwww. Almost 5 million.
Incase that isn't enough for you, let me paint you a little picture. Aznar Thrul, former Red Wizard of Evocation sported a private army of around 9000 troops in Bezantur alone.
That's almost a third of ALL of Menzoberranzans population.
So, umm, how exactly will Menzoberranzan fend off Thay? ;)
As a Race that has lived for countless centuries and has seen more battles than Thay could possibly imagine, it is safe to say that the Drow are master tacticians when it comes to the tactics of the Red Wizards.
How is it safe to say that they are masters of the Red Wizards tactics?
Perhaps another picture would help.
The Red Wizards sport hundreds of slaves from every race, including the Drow (Argue as you will that they are noble or otherwise, it is irrelevant for this point). However, there has only EVER been ONE short story written in which a Drow took control of a Red Wizard. And as I recall, he killed the one that did it before being slain.
Elaine Cunningham was the author, the title is "Rite of Blood" and it can be found in both the "Realms of the Underdark" and as Chapter 1 in the "Best of the Realms Vol.1". Please read an enjoy at your leisure.
Looks like the Drow have two points and the Red Wizards have a mere half point.
Please read the above and re-tabulate. ;)
I want nothing from you, but a civilized debate.
And I am giving you more than I think you honestly deserve.
Whats stretching it is your ability to try to come up with a superior argument.
I am sure we could take a vote and get a different opinion on that point. ;)
Whats not stretching it is that the Drow have been around longer than the Red Wizards.
Huh. You mean that a longer lived race has been around longer?
Fascinating, but really not a point that means anything.
Look at Imaskar and Netheril. Two short lived Human realms (by an Elven standard) yet infinatly more powerful than the Elves who had lived far longer.
Prime examples of how age means nothing
For a finally I will show one last example. Gromph by the FRCS (Again, only since you have it) Level 20, and 700 years old. Szass Tam level 29 and only by the ripe young age of 200.
Strange huh? ;)
-RW
As for Tam and Gromph, regardless of their levels, Gromph would wipe the floor with Tam. Just look at the Lich Dyrr.
That short story of Liriel going against the Red Wizard, in case you don't remember, Liriel won. Not a very good example on your part.
Also, Thay does not have nearly 5 million Red Wizards. Not before the Spellplague and not after. You can also say that the Red Wizards 'have' Drow slaves. Yet, you have no proof. You failed to show proof when I asked for it.
The following info has been gathered from the Grand History of the Realms. Each fact has been rated with a point system. The point system goes from 0 to .5 to 1. Each fact from the GHotR has been fairly and justly rated.
Drow History:
-12000 to -9000 DR - The Crown Wars of the Elves erupted more than a dozen millennia ago, pitting nearly four generations of elf against elf. The two greatest events of the Crown Wars that still have impact on the Realms of any era are the Dark Disaster and the Descent of the Drow. The Dark Disaster utterly destroyed the forest realm of Miyeritar, leaving the blasted plains that are now the High Moors. Perhaps due to the savagery of the Crown Wars or other factors long lost to time, the Dark Elves became corrupt during this era, broke away from their brethren, and after much warfare and cruelty they descended beneath the planet's surface to become the Deep Elves, the drow. .5 point
-11450 DR - The Sable Wars: Thearnytaar and Eiellûr, with minimal allies from Keltormir and Shantel Othreier, invade Ilythiir, intent on destroying or reforming the dark elves before more realms fall. More than half their forces are decimated by the corrupt magics of the dark elves. 1point
-10110 DR - In opposition to the corrupt dark elves of Ilythiir and their continued destruction of the forested elven homelands by fire (an elven enemy of long-standing), over 1,000 priests and High Mages in neutral Illefarn and other free areas spend decades in fervent prayer for salvation by Corellon Larethian and the Seldarine gods. 1 point
10000 DR - Descent of the Drow: Corellon's magic, as directed through his priests and High Mages, transforms the dark elves, whether the corrupt Ilythiiri or others, into the drow. Whether by magic or by the weaknesses that banish them from the sunlit lands, all drow retreat within two month's passing into the Underdark. -1 point
-9600 DR - Drow harassment of the Vyshantaar forces over the next five centuries help prevent their annexing Keltormir or any other lands. 1 point
-9000 DR - The drow empire of Telantiwar invades and rules supreme in the dwarf-carved halls of fallen Bhaerynden. 1 point
-8170 DR to -8150 DR - The First Spider War: The drow of Guallidurth take advantage of the dwarves' civil war to attack the caverns of Alatorin, which were far removed from the frontlines of fighting. Brightaxe Hall is captured and Alatorin collapses. 1 point
-8145 DR to -8137 DR - The Second Spider War: Aghast at thier folly, the eight reigning kings of Shanatar forge an armistice, and turn their armies against the drow. The drow are overcome and retreat from the caverns of Alatorin. In triumph, the eight kings march their armies back into Brightaxe Hall, and pledge never again to fight one another. The tribes of Shanatar are united under the rule of the king of Ultoksamrin. Shield dwarves mark this event as the beginning of the Second Age of Shanatar. -1 point
-7600 DR - The drow empire of Telantiwar falls with the collapse of Bhaerynden. Drow refugees claim lesser caverns to the north, south, and west of the Great Rift, establishing cities in nearby lands. .5 point
-6150 DR to -6120 DR - The Third Spider War: The drow of Guallidurth once again attack the caverns of Alatorin. The Stout Folk are forced to abandon BrightAxe Hall, but they manage to take the Wyrmskull Throne with them. 1 point
-4400 DR - The Dark Court Slaughter: Drow and duergar attack and destroy Elven Court and Sarphil beginning at the start of the year on Midwinter Night. Within days, Elven Court is in ruins and Sarphil is occupied by the drow and duergar. The Dark Court Slaughter claims the lives of many clan leaders of Elven Court and both the Coronals of Rystall Wood and Jhyrennstar. 1 point
-2600 DR - Drow begin work on the Twisted Tower in present-day Shadowdale. 1 point
-2549 DR - Despite repeated attacks and attempts to stop them, the drow complete the Twisted Tower this year and build up their presence here. 1 point
-2439 DR - The Spiderfires: Drow inflict the greatest damage upon the forests since the Twelve Nights of Fire by setting the southern Rystall Woods aflame with a swarm of spiders made from arcane fire. After a long, dry summer, the woods burn easily. This clears nearly 100 miles of forest south of the River Tesh, and severs the southernmost part of the woods around and to the west of the Twisted Tower from the greater Rystall Woods and widens the cleared lands between them and Cormanthor. 1 point
-1950 DR - Fighting a drow incursion into the western woods, Coronal Sakrattars sacrifices himself to create a blood dragon and destroy the massive horde of drow occupying the last ruins of Uvaeren and the Twisted Tower (though not the tower itself). The Coronalís chosen blade-heir receives and draws the Rulersí Blade without incident; Sinaht Irithyl is the third Coronal of
Cormanthyr. -1 point
-1803 DR to -1350 DR - The Deepbear Battles: Deepkingdom smashes the quaggoth nation of Ursadunthar, which lay beneath the Spine of the World. For centuries thereafter, the overextended kingdom of the duergar slowly declines as it continuously battles pockets of quaggoth (incited by the drow). 1 point
-1400 DR - Start of the Eleventh Rysar of Rystall Wood. The Coronal Faahresc is a rabid drow-hating warrior who leads his people on numerous raids in the Underdark caverns and the Twisted Tower to the south. 0 point
-1354 DR - Unified armies of Rystall Wood and Cormanthyr infiltrate and rout the majority of the drow forces around and under the lands of Rystall, Uvaerenís ruins, and the Old Skull, the granite crag within the hills that lie in the clearings among the three forests. However, they cannot penetrate the Twisted Tower, allowing many drow to escape. .5 point
-790 DR - The Night Wars begin between the drow and many surface powers of southern Faerûn. The primary military foe of the drow is Calimshan. 0 point
-750 DR - Drow attacks on Cormanthyr and Rystal Wood begin again in earnest, but only as slash-and-run raids by drow seeking magic, slaves, or destruction. The impregnable Twisted Tower expands twice in the next decades. .5 point
-722 DR - Elves of Yrlaphon suffer drow attacks in winter, and the orc hordes of summer overwhelm them, causing the fall of the city. 1 point
-697 DR - The drow erupt from beneath the cities of Calimport, Manshaka, and Almraiven, establishing footholds in the cities as well as the outlying wilderness areas that they hold for several decades. 1 point
-691 DR - Attacks by the drow in Calimport destroy the Caleph's Palace with all the ruling family within it, bringing the Vihad dynasty to a close. The qayadin (general) of the sadimmin takes control as Syl-Pasha Akim el Ehjoliq. 1 point
-664 DR - The Enslaving of Keltar: The drow nearly destroy this town over the course of a 37-hour battle, given their magical superiority and a globe of darkness that they use to surround the city. Calimport's army arrives after the drow conquer the city and have shipped more than 50% of the surviving population into the Underdark as slaves. While the Calishites free the town and force the drow back to the Underdark, over 3,000 Keltams are never seen again. .5 point
-649 DR - Large parts of Calimport are purposefully destroyed to bury the drow temples and partially subterranean villas, but some remain relatively intact though buried. Those same wizards who burned the city help rebuild it and seal off all areas between Calimport and the Underdark with stone and new buildings. Despite their diligence, the drow reopen those passages within a decade and reestablish their hold on Calimport Below, now nicely protected by the city overhead. The army surrounds Calimport as wizards and priests set it magically aflame, the light and fires driving the drow that claimed more than 25% of the city onto the waiting spears of the sadimmin or deeper beneath the city. Once again, the syl-pasha is forced to destroy his capital to save his empire. .5 point
-599 DR - The Spider Plagues: All Calimshan cities; sores filled with spider's eggs appearing on people, victims consumed by hatching spiders; 32% (41%). 1 point
-530 DR - The Night Wars draw to a close, and the drow never again gain more than a remote toehold in the surface lands. In all, more than 75,000 humans and other beings are captured and enslaved by the drow during these conflicts. More than 150,000 others die fighting the dark elves, though nearly as many drow and duergar die during the wars as well. .5 point
-331 DR - The elf armies of the Coronals Tannivh of Cormanthyr and Connak of Rystal Wood finally break the greater defenses of the Twisted Tower and destroy all remaining drow slavers within the tower. The Tower is left in the hands of good dark elf allies, and it is a great temple to Eilistraee within a century. The Soldier's Blade is lost during this great battle, captured by the drow in their slaying of Lord Orym Hawksong during the fall of the Twisted Tower. The blade and the body of Lord Orym are taken down into the Underdark as spoils of war by the fleeing drow. .5 point
-206 DR - The last Coronal of Illefarn is murdered by raiders from Jhachalkyn, a drow city deep beneath the southeastern Neverwinter Woods. 1 point
309 DR - After many years of exterminating large pockets of drow and duergar, Halaster Blackcloak now rules the Underhalls. -1 point
-527 DR - Hlondeth is besieged by kobolds of the Tattered Cloth Legion, who are secretly dispatched by Nathglaryst, drow queen of Undraeth. 1 point
710 DR - Drow attacks in Cormyr claim the lives of three noble families of the realm; while believed dead, most of the nobles survive as slaves in the Underdark. 1 point
802 DR - Miners digging for silver in the Gnollwatches just north of Herath break through into the Underdark and discover the drow city of T`lindhet. The drow, angered at this perceived invasion, kill the miners and begin raiding the towns and villages around the mine entrance. 1 point
803 DR - King Reinhar IX orders and expeditionary force into the mines to take the battle to the drow homeland. The attack is a disaster, and the humans are quickly driven back to the surface. 1 point
808 DR - Battle of the Shadowed Vale: T`lindhet drow kill nearly five thousand human troops just north of Herath. 1 point
817 DR - More than fifteen hundred drow are slain by wild evles in the southern fringes of the Forest of Amtar after retreating there from a larger force of human cavalry. -1 point
819 DR - Drow overrun the city of Herath. 1 point
822 DR - Prastuil falls to the drow. 1 point
825 DR - The drow take the cities of Luenath and Maarlith. 1 point
830 DR - The drow besiege the city of Shantil, trapping King Reinhar and his army on the peninsula to the south of the city. 1 point
906 DR - Drow driven from the Twisted Tower. -1 point
942 DR - Drow raiders plunder cities along the Sword Coast, enslaving many humans of the Dessarin Valley. The small realm of Harpshield and Talmost, which border the Ardeep Forest west of the ruins of Delimbiyran, are ravaged and burned. 1 point
1174 DR - Dambrath conducts a series of raids along the coast of the Great Sea, attacking and plundering the coastal cities of Estagund, Durpar, and Veldorn. 1 point
1358 DR - Battle of Keeper's Dale: House Baenre leads an army of drow, goblins, and kobolds out of Menzoberranzan to attack the dwarves of Mithral Hall. The dwarves are aided by svirfneblin, local barbarians, troops from Nesme and Silverymoon; even the mysterious Harpells and Lady Alustriel herself. The drow are ultimately defeated and driven back to their homeland. -1 point
Total 25 points. As stated in the Grand History of the Realms, the Drow hold more victories than the Red Wizards of Thay could ever hope to achieve. I have double checked the info and only posted the tactical victories, minor and major. This proves what I have been saying all along. The Drow are more cunning and are superior in tactical warfare. You are welcome to review this, however, you will find that I am correct. Thay may have numbers, yet, the Drow win in the end.
Thayan History:
922 DR - The wizards of Thay rebel against Mulhorandi rule and sack the provincial capital at Delhumide. Battle of Thazalhar: Mulhorand responds to the sacking of Delhumide by sending an enormous but ineptly led army to crush the rebellion. Though grossly outnumbered, the Red Wizards smashed the god-kings' troops with the assistance of an enormously powerful, mysterious extradimensional creature. 2 points
934 DR - The Red Wizards attempt to invade Rashemen through the Gorge of Gauros but are repelled. -1 point
1021 DR - Thay strikes against the Harpers. Harpers go underground. 1 point (Harpers were refounded a year later -1 point)
1098 DR - A Thayan invasion of Mulhorand fails. -1 point
1101 DR - Presper and Grimwald, the surviving members of the Four Founders of the Covenant, leave Faerûn through a series of portals, drawing as many Red Wizards as possible after them into a series of magic traps and ambushes. The remaining Covenant members go underground, and the arrogant Red Wizards believe they have shattered the cabal of mages. -1 point
1110 DR - Thay marches on Phent, but the combined forces of Impiltur and the Theskian cities defeat the Red Wizards' army. -1 point
1194 DR - Battle of the Singing Sands: Aglarond repels the first invasion of the Red Wizards of Thay. -1 point
1197 DR - Battle of Brokenheads: The Thayans attack Aglarond again and are driven back. -1 point
1201 DR - Yet another Thayan invasion of Aglarond. -1 point
1260 DR - Battle of Lapendrar: Halacar of Aglarond launches an invasion of Thay, advancing along the Lapendrar. The Red Wizards destroy his army. 1 point
1280 DR - The zulkirs of Thay launch an invasion of Mulhorand that ravages Murghôm and the northern districts of that land. Sultim is nearly overrun. 1 point
1323 DR - The zulkir of enchantment leads an attempt to control the minds of influential people through their dreams. The efforts of the Red Wizards are eventually thwarted. -1 point
1357 DR - Salamander War: A Thayan army reinforced by fire elementals takes Escalant and Laothkund. Most of the Wizards' Reach is under Thayan control. 1 point
1359 DR - The Horde: The Tuigan Horde invades Thay. Although a small scouting force of Tuigans was defeated by Thayan magic, General Batu Min Ho proved a far worthier foe. Thousands of gnolls and the vaunted Griffon Legion are defeated at the mouth of Shar's Pass. Zulkir Szass Tam arranges a truce with the Tuigans and builds a great portal to transport them north to Rashemen. -1 point
1362 DR - Maligor, Zulkir of Alteration, of the Red Wizards of Thay attempts to wrest control of the nation from the Council of Zulkirs. His plan might have worked was it not for the intervention of Harper agents and the lich, Szass Tam, Zulkir of Necromancy. .5 point
1362 DR - Thay attempts to invade Rashemen by moving forces through Thesk along the Golden Way, but they are overwhelmed by water elementals summoned by the Witches. The Thayans retreat after using magic to scorch the western shore to bare rock. The Witches spend a month repairing the damage. .5 point
1365 DR - The Thayan army marches on Emmerch. Aglarondan griffonriders spot a second Thayan force moving toward the Shyvar Pass. Forces from Glarondar meet the southern Thayan army and force them back, then come around through the Tannath Gap and take the Thayans at Emmech from behind. -1 point
1365 DR - Thay invades Rashemen from the east, while Red Wizards melt glaciers in the Icerim Mountains, causing severe flooding in Immilmar, and Mulsantir. While the hathrans are distracted, the Thayans forces cross the foothills of the High Country but are driven back by angry elementals. -1 point
1366 DR - Thay invades Rashemen from the east, while Red Wizards melt glaciers in the Icerim Mountains, causing severe flooding in Immilmar, and Mulsantir. While the hathrans are distracted, the Thayans forces cross the foothills of the High Country but are driven back by angry elementals. -1 point
1369 DR - Thay launches its latest invasion attempt against Aglarond in the winter. Szass Tam creates a vast army of undead to cross the frozen Umber Marshes. The animated corpses crash like waves against the Watchwall but fail to overcome the fortification. -1 point
1370 DR - Although the Red Wizards withdraw from the Umber Marshes, the battle is not over. As autumn falls, undead creatures trapped in the swamp claw their way out of the thickening muck. Without the leadership of the Thayans, they wander about aimlessly to this day, hurling themselves upon the Watchwall. .5 point
1370 DR - Thay attempts to invade Rashemen by crossing Lake Mulsantir on magically crafted boats, but a storm created by the hathrans dashes their vessels against the southern shore. -1 point
1371 DR - The zulkirs of Thay, tired of the incessant battles with Aglarond, offer a truce. The Simbul accepts with reservations. -1 point
1371 DR - Thydrim Yvarrg, Iron Lord of Rashemen, is slain by a Thayan assassin. Rather than raising him from the dead, the Witches opt to replace him with Volas Dyervolk, whom they feel will chafe less under their guidance. .5 point
1372 DR - Khalia, a Thayan emissary, approaches Mulsantir under the flag of peace and asks permission to create an enclave. She is refused but allowed to leave safely. 0 point
Total -7 points Thayan Red Wizards are not as good as they claim to be. Face it, the Grand History of the Realms do not lie. Brute force the Red Wizards may have, but that force counts for nothing without the cunning and superior tactics to guide such brute force.
Additionally, there are several flaws in your post that I will touch on, before giving you proof of Drow slaves.
1) The Drow are not the Ilythiiri. They are descendants, but hardly the same genetic branch any longer. If however you wish to include them, then you must also include the Mulhorandi timeline AND by association the Egyptian timeline of Earth. Now given that Alexander the Great rolls into the mix, I think you'll see the point system roll out of the Dark Elves favour quite quickly.
2) The Red Wizards took control of Thay in 922. It is now roughly 1375. That is a differense of 453 years.
Your "Drow" Timeline begins in -12000 DR and extends to the present. Now let me run that number for you, and you get a difference of 13376 years of history.
Now perhaps Math isn't your strong point, so I'll walk you through this.
In order to get a fair numerical result for proper point comparrison, we must first divise the equivalent multiplier with which to tally the difference. To do this, we will Divide 13376 by 453 (13376 / 453 = 29.53) to get a rough 30 rounding up. Which means that just one year in Thay is the equivalent of roughly 30 years of Dark elf history.
Now to continue running the numbers, I need to take your arbitrary numerical point system, and apply it to this number. So we take the 7 points you awarded Thay, and Multiply it by 30 for the cumlative years and (30 * 7 = 210) you are left with the number 210.
210 is the rough point value that should now be assigned to Thay if they are to have had as much time with which to work, given your current numbers.
So now when we compare 25 to 210 you will notice that the milataristic power inherent in Thay grossly outstripes that of the Dark Elves.
3) If you'll notice the Thayan dates are all relatively close together towards the end. Just like modern history we know the most about more recent wars and struggles, while historical records tend to only record the victories.
This appears to be the case. After all, you should take a significant penalty for an ENTIRE race being driven underground by their brethren. ;)
4) This point system is arbitrary at best to be honest.
What I see when looking at it, is distinct favouritism, even if none was intended. By you copying a section of dates, and throwing numbers beside them, you have done little more than waste your time, and look foolish in the process. No slur intended, but it is what it is.
To draw a point of comparrison, you give Thay "-1" for a lost war against 2 armies, but grant the Drow "+1" for killing some miners who dug into their tunnels.
Now given this obvious light, should Thays number increase, of the Drows decrease, a skewing of the current 210-25 would occur, making the milatary differense slip further into the realm of rediculous, and away from your favour.
Now, for the Creme de la Resistance of this post.
You wanted sound proof of the Drow slaves in Thay so I have taken the liberty to set aside time for such.
I did not provide it in my last post as you to the best of my knowledge do not posess the Spellbound boxset. However, should you come across it, I will cite page numbers here for you so that you can reference it yourself in time.
The following information can be found in Chapter 1. of the Spellbound campaign guide, as part of the Spellbound Boxset. The exact information in question is on Page 7, under the heading of "Slaves". First Paragraph, 3/4's of the way down.
Ahem.
" Elves are the most prized slaves in Thay, but are rare, being hard to get in the first place and having a tendancy to die rather than submit to captivity. Drow are the rarest slave race (those here are provided by the drow themselves from among defeated noble houses, criminals, and escaped slaves) but seem to take better to it than their elven cousins"
And there you have it. Proof of not only Drow slaves, but also of NOBLE Drow purchases. I have also included the quip about the Elves to give you an idea of their value there, and to make the final line make sense.
-RW
P.S. @ Thinblade: Our arguments were more based on personal opinion than anything canonical, which makes for hard debating in such matters. So I don't think anyone/ hope noone, took anything said to heart.
;)You want me to give them time to gain more military victories?? Why?? You kept on saying that the Red Wizards have won more battles than the Drow, when the fact of the matter is they have failed in almost every battle. If the Dark Elves/Drow had the same Timeline as the Red Wizards, they would still hold more victories than the Red Wizards.
As for Drow being slaves of the Red Wizards, well, when you mentioned rarest, you just proved me right. You said earlier that they had or have numerous Drow slaves, when in all actuality, they don't. Good work on contradticing yourself. BTW, Elves are not Drow Elves. There is a distinct difference.
The point system has nothing to do with my liking the Drow. It just shows that the Red Wizards are not as strong as you make them out to be. That is a fact. Refute it all you want, I have just given you all the evidence you needed. Have fun.
If you think the info I posted is wrong, then why don't you review the GHotR and confirm its authenticity.
I am not refuting the evidence, merely stating that you make an unfair comparrison. It's like telling one person they have 7 days to fly around the world, and another person they only get 4 hours and 48 minutes to do so. I can barely fly to England in that time, so how can I be expected to make a complete pass?
I have been honest about the point system I gave it and the evidence shows that the Drow, be they Dark Elves before their Descent, they were still Drow as the GHotR states.
And the Thayans are still Mulhorandi.
Also, again I reference your point system. How do you compare a drow surprise attack on peasants to a full scale war against two entire nations?
The info can't be disregarded. If you seek to do so, you only make your point all the more weaker.
I have disregarded nothing, only questioned your ability to fairly represent it.
As for Drow being slaves of the Red Wizards, well, when you mentioned rarest, you just proved me right. You said earlier that they had or have numerous Drow slaves, when in all actuality, they don't. Good work on contradticing yourself. BTW, Elves are not Drow Elves. There is a distinct difference.
In a population of 5 million, you are telling me that even rare can't mean numerous numerically?
I could have 10 000 grains of sand, and only 1000 apples, and technically they are rare in comparrison. But that is still 1000 apples I have.
There is no contradiction. I did not say they were abundant. Or that every household had one as a pet.
And like it or not, they are still elves. I was point out that thier value was high, and they they lasted longer than their faerie cousins. Should I have not given them such a complement?
The point system has nothing to do with my liking the Drow. It just shows that the Red Wizards are not as strong as you make them out to be. That is a fact. Refute it all you want, I have just given you all the evidence you needed. Have fun.
Answer me one thing I have anked you .
Please, tell me in detail how the miners and a war compare.
-RW
Tam might be a better Overlord than Zulkir. Kinda like a Doc Doom deal.
with a whole bunch of Tambots running around messin' with PCs
That short story of Liriel going against the Red Wizard, in case you don't remember, Liriel won. Not a very good example on your part.
A couple of follow ups here. First my comment was showing that in Canon this was the only instance in which Drow are showed to have possesion of a Red Wizard.
Also, I said he killed his mistress, so I wasn't incorrect on that.
The example remains viable, as the question was never "Did Liriel win?". ;)
Also, Thay does not have nearly 5 million Red Wizards. Not before the Spellplague and not after. You can also say that the Red Wizards 'have' Drow slaves. Yet, you have no proof. You failed to show proof when I asked for it.
And Menzoberranzan doesn't have 32 000 skilled drow warriors and wizards. Much of that is fodder and commoners. As I said when I posted the text, I was for you including ALL members of both locales. ;)
As for Drow being slaves of the Red Wizards, well, when you mentioned rarest, you just proved me right. You said earlier that they had or have numerous Drow slaves, when in all actuality, they don't. Good work on contradticing yourself. BTW, Elves are not Drow Elves. There is a distinct difference.
Finally, I wanted to comment on this remark.
While I was not incorrect on saying that Rare does not always have to mean low numbers, I did not actually in any of my other posts say they had numerous Drow slaves. ;)
I only ever said they had Drow slaves. Just thought I should correct that little slip. ;)
-RW
Please stop engaging in personal attacks or name calling. Restrict your discussions to the actual matters being debated. If you are going to quit the conversation, just do so without announcing it.
Just the facts, m'am/sir.
K?
A couple of follow ups here. First my comment was showing that in Canon this was the only instance in which Drow are showed to have possesion of a Red Wizard.
Also, I said he killed his mistress, so I wasn't incorrect on that.
The example remains viable, as the question was never "Did Liriel win?". ;)
And Menzoberranzan doesn't have 32 000 skilled drow warriors and wizards. Much of that is fodder and commoners. As I said when I posted the text, I was for you including ALL members of both locales. ;)
Who killed who's mistress? I wonder if that's indeed true...
Irrelevant but what do u think abou Xingax?
He's a smelly, disgusting, undead aborted god fetus. What more is there to say?
Irrelevant but what do u think abou Xingax?Tam has summoned an atropal(abomination, ELH) and bound it to his service.I think that's WAY harder tha most mages can accomplish but Szass Tam has done with relative ease.And i doubt that bard guy Bareris could really injure him.All remains to be concluded in Unholy...
To the best of my knowledge it is only an Atropal Scion from the source "Libris Mortis". If that is the case, it only has 9HD and is a CR 11 encounter.
That said, I want to know why they all seemed to be running around with Magic adamantine weapons. :P
I mean the creature has DR 10/ Adamantine, and Fast Healing 8. Which means that 18 points of damage are being done away with every round before even scratching it.
Bareris must had some godly strength in those Bard arms to be able to do 11 points of damage with a max roll on his 1d8 longsword. :P
-RW
Were it a free form world, then we would have no option but to accept it for it's creative -- or lack thereof-- flare.
As it is, when certain people preform abilities that don't seem to correspond with anything that should be possible by game mechanics, it causes the field to be opened up to criticism from the fans.
-RW
I doubt most readers who know about the setting mechanics actually sit there and count the spells the low-level wizard is casting, but if a low-level wizard is somehow able to cast, say, a ninth-level spell, I think a lot of readers would be perturbed, unless there's a really good explanation at hand.
And of course, what might bother me may not bother someone else, or vice versa.