Ive always been a little curious about Elminster (I know next to nothing about him). What book would you recomend that I start with if I wanted to start reading his stories?
Is The Making of a Mage the first one he was in? What are the best ones in the Elminster series? Thanks!
As for his novels, I liked most of them... they all had strengths and weaknesses. I think Elminster in Hell was the worst, mostly for the cringing moments over the described torments, but otherwise it was an interesting read for glimpses into his past and the past of Faerun in general. But keep in mind I'm not much into the novels, and generally try to avoid them, so...
I'd have much preferred stories about Karsus, Ioulaum, great Imaskari mages etc. Unlike Elminster, you would know that they had a great destiny ahead of them and would do great things to get there, as opposed to Elminster who's basically just a sage sitting in the middle of nowhere, who occasionally meddles in stuff, but has no real place or power, and often no significant effect on anything.
Almost anything else would probably do though.
And I've found it at Discount Bookstores for around $12. ;)
You. Are. So. Thrifty.
The Times of Trouble trilogy(Shadowdale,Tantras,Waterdeep)
The Spellfire Saga(Spellfire, Crown of Fire, Hand of Fire)
The Shadow of th Avatar trilogy(sorry don't recall the titles)
All of these will also give you insight on El.
There's even short stories in Some of the Realms of Series.
From all I've heard of it, I'm not sure the Spellfire Saga would be the best recommendation...
Indeed. I am always in two minds about that one.
El`s Daughter also seems to be one that garners wildly different opinions (Although I personally, and I believe Lady Rin, both liked it).
El has a habit of showing up in about 20 places and story where he isn`t invited... quite often for comic effect or to needle Vangey or Khelben... or both. MoM is definitely a good place to start though, it provides a context that all of the others can be interpreted in terms of.
Just get The Annotated Elminster - it contains all three of the first books.
And I've found it at Discount Bookstores for around $12. ;)
-There you go. That's all you need.
-Elminster's various "cameos" can be found in the Novel Index on these boards.
-Elminster's various "cameos" can be found in the Novel Index on these boards.
All of them? Already? Wow, you have been busy.
Just for the record, Elminster's Daughter is one of my personal favorites.
Don`t take this the wrong way, Stigger, but you do know that I love you in a deep and entirely unphysical way, right?
For me I think it was the way that about 80% of my favourite characters turned up and weren't connected in any way to an RSE.
All of them? Already? Wow, you have been busy.
-I didn't say ALL of them. Just that they're there. Working on it. :P
Though I personally like the turret merchant myself, and his mad pursuit through Marsember... that made me laugh quite a bit.
I loath myself just fine without you, Mr. Big Man.
As for you? I don't love or hate you. I just want to smack you upside the head with a spatula.
Oh. And point. Eliminster's Daughter just sucked--pretty much like every other book El' has starred in.
Though I personally like the turret merchant myself, and his mad pursuit through Marsember... that made me laugh quite a bit.
Indeed, I too have a fondness for that old rascal. Almost all of Ed's Old Rascals in fact (Mirt and so on...)
Oh. And point. Eliminster's Daughter just sucked--pretty much like every other book El' has starred in.
I don't suppose you would to outline why you feel like this, JD? PM's would be fine if you don't feel comfortable doing it here.
;)
:D
As to that closing comment, shush you bitter little vestige, lest we send you back to your rock in the High Forest. :P
As for the best of a bad bunch, well, I've seen worse. Take enjoyment where you can. Especially in the literary sense.
So much so that I have been working on and off (more off than on), on a short story incorporating those scenes that attempts to tell more of her story. I just felt it could have been a seriously interesting read... and didn't see anyone else picking it up.
I don't suppose you would to outline why you feel like this, JD? PM's would be fine if you don't feel comfortable doing it here.
Eh. I’m a character guy. Your story could pretty much be lame and suck, but I would like it if you had decent characters. Elimister’s daughter didn’t have those. It’s as simple as that. I didn’t feel connect in anyway with any of it.
As for El’ himself, well, he has just become one-dimensional to me.
He's being bitter because he can't admit his love for me. It colors all of his posts for a while afterwards... that and his having no taste isn't really helpful... I mean really, just look at his shoes! And that hair! And that handbag... handbag? Right... gotcha.
;)
:D
Um. Hey. Yeah—you, ya ninny.
Take a look. My avatar is a neuron/lighting bolt. How does my shoes, hair and handbag (which, I do not possess) figure into this?
Have you been drinking, Stig, and just learned you are a female or do you really think you are illuminating with female tendencies?
My assumption? You must be a chick.
Have you been drinking, Stig, and just learned you are a female or do you really think you are illuminating with female tendencies?
-Heh, that's Stigger's alignment: Illuminating with Female Tendencies.
-You know, in a way, I also feel that Elminster has become something of a one-dimensional character, of sorts.
-Heh, that's Stigger's alignment: Illuminating with Female Tendencies.
-You know, in a way, I also feel that Elminster has become something of a one-dimensional character, of sorts.
Thank you on both points.
Remember Tom Hank's character at the end of The Green Mile? Yeah.... THAT guy.
Wow.
You. Are. So. Thrifty.
I paid full-price.
I was buying some other FR noverls at that store when I came across it.
And yes... when you have to live on $400 a month, you learn to be INCREDIBLY thrifty.
Edit: I added a link to the store, because I just checked and a brand-new copy is only $8!!!
Well if someone tends to have the same duty for over 1000 years it becomes tedious and mundane. I think personally El got bored and was never really faced with any signifigant challenges or enemies. Just the ones he somehow always knew he would accomplish or defeat. Living a mundane life(@ least to El) turns one into a pretty predictable one dimensional character. I think that 4e and the spellplague was the best thing to happen to him. @ least not everyone is coming to him to save the world all the time. I hope Ed has El focus on himself a lot more in 4e.
From the sounds of things, Ed doesn't have much of a choice with what happens to El'.
And, I don't think 1000 years of doing the same thing plays into what I am mentioning. El' has always been chipper, as usual. The one dimensional thing refers to his depth--in which, he has none.
Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again - people who hate Elminster don't understand Elminster. Occasionally, Ed allows us to see the true sadness of someone fated to see everyone he loves die.
Remember Tom Hank's character at the end of The Green Mile? Yeah.... THAT guy.
I don't hate El'--I think he is a very cool conception. Unfortunately, I don't think he is convened appropriately.
And he relates in NO WAY to any character in the Green Mile.
And yes... when you have to live on $400 a month, you learn to be INCREDIBLY thrifty.
You know that I know of, well, you know--you know?
I wasn't being a dick--just a smartass. Do forgive, you big dummy.
I know it certainly helped me out with breaking forth the maidenheads, so to speak, of numerous female acquaintances during my tenure as a single person... :D
Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again - people who hate Elminster don't understand Elminster. Occasionally, Ed allows us to see the true sadness of someone fated to see everyone he loves die.
-I understand Elminster quite well, and dislike the character none the less. That, ultimately, he is a tragic character doesn't take away from the way in which he is written into the setting.
In more ways then one.
He is that rarest of rares - an ultimately powerful individual who can't be corrupted.
You ever hear the old saying that "the person who is most fit to rule is the person who refuses the crown"?
Thats Elminster.
The scene where he basically 'spanks' that female Starym Elf in EiH is classic Elminster. He is both showing his incredible power, and greatly saddened by having to do so.
The rest of the world looks at him with either hatred, jealousy, or awe... thats why it's really a curse. He just wants to be Elminster... and can't. It's probably why he spends so much time in disguise... he likes the way it feels to be treated normal.
I do understand why folks dislike him - he IS an uber-munchkin. But he was created to be so.
Embrace the feminine aspects of your genetic make-up... it makes you more of a man. :P
Keep telling yourself that. Go on...I'm sure it's like psychotherapy for you.
Thats because he is beyond recognition (he appears different, because he acts different depending on the circumstances).
That's complete BS. If Ed Greenwood wasn't behind the character, you would be ripping it up.
LK and I are in complete agreement on the fact that the character has been poorly developed and ruled over.
Because I don't look at El (or the Chosen, or Khelben, or the Harpers, etc) from a novel point-of-view, I look at them as an essential balancing factor that the realms needs. Without them, evil would have take-over long ago (which is why I think the 4e setting is total BS).
As a DM, I need those guys in the background - never to be used - just to preserve my sanity, because otherwise a world in which uber-baddies can annihilate entire armies wouldn't exist for very long.
Keep telling yourself that. Go on...I'm sure it's like psychotherapy for you.
C'mon now, just admit you love me and embrace the luminosity that is me... oh, and don't forget to send the check for the bliss I bring you. :P
That's complete BS. If Ed Greenwood wasn't behind the character, you would be ripping it up.
LK and I are in complete agreement on the fact that the character has been poorly developed and ruled over.
Elminster started off as the unreliable narrator to tells us about the Realms. I'd have been happier had he stayed that way to be honest. He's supposed to be 'higher level than you' because that's his job, simply so he knows more.
As to his novel depiction, I like him more now than I did before, though he's sadder and less amusing than he used to be as a result. Overall, I agree with Markus on him.
Nope.
Uh...uh-huh!!
Because I don't look at El (or the Chosen, or Khelben, or the Harpers, etc) from a novel point-of-view, I look at them as an essential balancing fatcor thet the realms needs. Without them, evil would have take-over long ago (which is why I think the 4e setting is total BS).
You are talking about concept, not how they are conveyed. I dig all of the aforementioned, simply not how they are depicted. Especially El'.
As a DM, I need those guys in the background - never to be used - just to preserve my sanity, because otherwise a world in which uber-baddies can annihilate entire armies wouldn't exist for very long.
Hmmm...isn't that 4e?
C'mon now, just admit you love me and embrace the luminosity that is me... oh, and don't forget to send the check for the bliss I bring you. :P
No!
When the lights go out, YOU are not the one I am turning on, you CENSORED lightbulb!
As to his novel depiction, I like him more now than I did before, though he's sadder and less amusing than he used to be as a result. Overall, I agree with Markus on him.
Sad.
So much intellect, yet you refuse to shine.
:D
BTW, did anyone hear about the Chinese guy that stood on the bridge threatening to commit suicide? He stood there for five hours, stopping traffic, so a guy that didn't like to be waiting got out of his car and pushed him off the bridge so he could get to work.
You are talking about concept, not how they are conveyed. I dig all of the aforementioned, simply not how they are depicted. Especially El'.
-Right. A sagely sage who has become a bit of an eccentric cook in his old age- while wielding tremendous power and/or intellect- is a near fantasy staple. Gandalf is a character in the same mold, and I have no problems with Gandalf. As with a lot of Ed Greenwood's writing (and design philosophy, at times), it's "over the top" for the sake of being "over the top", sometimes intentionally, and sometimes not. Again, the "dinner scene" of Elminster's Daughter immediately comes to mind.
Yes, if you want to get a strong background on El', then Making of a Mage is the one you need to read. But, to get the personality aspect of how he is (3e) now, you'll need to grab some other novel--though, I do agree with Stig, Eliminster in Hell isn't the one, simply because it doesn't progress more than him being in a single state of hell(yeah, sorta punned) the entire time.
I think that's because the book wasn't really about Elminster being in Hell--that part is essentially just a framing device
I think the novel is more about the value of lore and memories (in this case, about Faerun and its people).I, for one, enjoyed that novel, but I'd agree that it probably isn't the best place to start reading about Elminster. I'd recommend Spellfire for that.
El`s Daughter also seems to be one that garners wildly different opinions (Although I personally, and I believe Lady Rin, both liked it).
Yes, I did like it--very much so.
I'd agree with some critics that Elminster's daughter Narnra could have used more "screen time," but the book gives the reader such a nice glimpse of Cormyr I didn't mind that too much.Actually Tempation contains one of my favourite (linked) scenes ever, that referring to the Lady of Scorchstone Hall. For some reason that one has always stuck in my mind. The Realms has different kinds of moments in many different books but that one has always struck me.
Same here, on both points!
-Right. A sagely sage who has become a bit of an eccentric cook in his old age
Well, as long as he's a good cook, that's all that matters.
As with a lot of Ed Greenwood's writing (and design philosophy, at times), it's "over the top" for the sake of being "over the top", sometimes intentionally, and sometimes not. Again, the "dinner scene" of Elminster's Daughter immediately comes to mind.
Hmm, could you refresh my memory about that?
Well, as long as he's a good cook, that's all that matters.
-Best Pasta Fzoul this side of the Inner Sea.
Hmm, could you refresh my memory about that?
-To paraphrase:
Narna: "I'm Elminster's daughter."
Queen Fiferael (p?) of Cormyr: "Me too."
Regent Alusair of Cormyr: "Me too."
The Butcher: "Me too."
The Baker: "Me too."
The Candlestick Maker: "Me too."
:: Cue 80's laugh track ::
Although, you forgot Laspeera. ;)
... As with a lot of Ed Greenwood's writing (and design philosophy, at times), it's "over the top" for the sake of being "over the top"...
Ding! Ding! Ding!
Thanks to LK, this case is closed. Nobody speak of this again.
I think that's because the book wasn't really about Elminster being in Hell--that part is essentially just a framing device
Yeh and neh. You aren't incorrect. Either way, its not the novel to start or end with.
What I've learned is, when reading Ed, IGNORE the story. Its a frame, as Rinon was kind enough to point out. Ed writes in such a way as to create a window into Faerûn that we can peer through, like voyeurs. The story itself is not meant to entertain as such, but rather the vista it presents is.
Oh, and Ed has clarified that ending - they were not speaking literally. While a couple may be actual decendents (and not true daughters), the fact is that all of them are Harpers (what... you didn't know Fee was a Harper? :smirk
, and since Elminster was the only member of the original Harpers at Twilight, and the founding member of the modern Harpers, he is basically considered the 'father of all Harpers' (and quite a few literally - he raised at least three of the seven sisters).Ed has stated that Elminster is the only Chosen with more children then Alustriel... but not much more. Spread that over a millenia and thats only about one every fifty years or so. Most of us here can top that rating.
Ding! Ding! Ding!
Thanks to LK, this case is closed. Nobody speak of this again.
-Very good. The universe is in harmony once again.
Well, I can agree with you guys without backing-off on my liking him. Until I 'got into' the Realms (as in, became a fanboi), I liked Ed's writing the least of all the regular authors
-I would think that one can be a "fanboy/girl", "fan", or whatever adjectives, and dislike Ed Greenwood's design philosophy and/or literature.
Ed is an 'aquired taste'.
Being an avid reader, I am extremely picky and very critical of everything. I KNOW good wrtiting (something, that I feel, many game-novel readers don't, sadly). However, I do enjoy a good 'pulp' story, and do-so even more then a well-written pile of boring social commentary (which some 'good novels' aspire to). I think RAS is an excellent pulp-writer... but I wouldn't call anything he writes literature. Thats not an insult; two of my favorite authors - Michael Moorcock and Robert Howard - I consider 'pulpy'.
Ed is somewhere in the middle, and you have to really be a fan of the Realms themselves to enjoy his work. The novel Spellfire was written to showcase FR characters, and was never meant to be 'great literature' - Ed himself has said this.
On the other hand, a novel is supposed to entertain, so it needn't be 'great' for us to enjoy it. The bottom line is, I judge a book by it's 'put-downability'. If I can put it down and not bother with it for a few days, its . If I can't wait to turn the next page (no matter how it is written), then its a good yarn.
There are, of course, extremes at both ends of the spectrum. There are at least three series I couldn't finish (not even the first book), and then there are those rare gems that I find myself reading straight through the night until the next moring, because I couldn't put it down.
Ed's novels have gone from the mediocre category of enjoyment for me to the 'can't put it down' category, but only because I am a HUGE fan of the Realms, and no-one... and I mean NO-ONE... paints a picture of the Forgotten Realms for us the way Ed does.
So, sometimes you just have to lower your expectations in order to enjoy life. Heck.. we all can't marry super-models, and we know this, so why do we insist our novels be masterpieces?
You've no romance in your soul LK... too much hubris I suspect to let anything else in you grouchy, cantankerous, wand-waver. :P
No romance? That can't be true...didn't Karsus have millions of kids, so many that they are considered their own race?:P
I do agree that Ed's writing is probably an acquired taste for most (though of course, some never acquire the taste).
No romance? That can't be true...didn't Karsus have millions of kids, so many that they are considered their own race?:P
The ability to procreate is distinct and seperate from one's ability to discern and appreciate romance, which you should well know... at least I hope you do, otherwise I'll have to beat you with a half-rotten carp. :P
That "mass-teleport **** into random, fertile females" spell he created doesn't count. :P
The ability to procreate is distinct and seperate from one's ability to discern and appreciate romance, which you should well know... at least I hope you do, otherwise I'll have to beat you with a half-rotten carp. :P
I know, but I like to imagine there was romance behind it all...
;)
:D
Netherease didn't use wands... they had Scepters. ;)
And keep your Orbs of Dragonkind out of this. :P
And keep your Orbs of Dragonkind out of this. :P
-I'm trying! I'm trying! Apparently, to no avail!
I think wand was probably a better choice... :evillaugh
I have a "Rod of Wonderus Power" Myself....
I heard JD has a "Twig Of Dissapoinment" :P
And I'm not touching the JD's twig thing, take that how you will... :D
Well, I can agree with you guys without backing-off on my liking him. Until I 'got into' the Realms (as in, became a fanboi), I liked Ed's writing the least of all the regular authors
That's what I speak of. Ed did create FR--if you're here and don't like him, then something is amiss. I simply don't like his storytelling.
-Very good. The universe is in harmony once again.
Obviously not. This thread still continues, does it not?
-Can we not talk about Karsus' Ioun Stones and Wand of Magic Missiles, please.
Well, at least that could be the title of a Harry Potter novel.
Why not? I am your Konsort after all.;) And, this thread is about Elminster, and I don't think I need to explain the resemblance...;)
I do.
I have a "Rod of Wonderus Power" Myself....
No. You mean "Rod of Wonder Where The CENSORED It's At"? Yeah. I heard that existed.
I heard JD has a "Twig Of Dissapoinment" :P
No. It's actually the "Epic Rod of Exertion." Drizztmanthingy has the Twig. Though, I believe he renamed it to the Twig of Disappearance.
And, after months of AWOL, this is how you return to me?
I'm more of a "Rod of Politeness" type myself.
And I'm not touching the JD's twig thing, take that how you will... :D
The fact that you aren't taking it surprises me actually. ;)
JD its actually named Manthingy's Mystical Organ. *ignores the obvious joke there*
Smart manI understand your disappointment, but I'm just not into you. :P
He knows all bout that :P
If I would've been AWOL I probably would've been here more
I understand your disappointment, but I'm just not into you. :P
Well, since you curb stomp pu$$y, I was sure you had to have an interest.
Stigger *ignores the obvious joke there*
I won't.
How often do you play it, Drizztmanthingy? :D
I'd ask how often it is actually played, but.... ;)
:P
;)
Well, Elminster probably had a similar conversation at some point in his life... probably with that fellow who's name I blanked on from his time as a rogue in Athalantar mentioned in Making of a Mage.
Green Ed Wood?