Status of Kossuthan church post-spellplague - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Status of Kossuthan church post-spellplague

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
paulstrait
Mar 18, 2011 17:18:42 [I just made a similar post in the 'running the realms' forum, but I realized this might be a better place for it].

What do you guys think is going on with the Church of Kossuth these days? On the one hand, I suspect many of Kossuth's "followers" are arsonists (and perhaps people who smoke cigarrettes inside western US national parks), but before the Spellplague, he did have a rather organized faith. The largest temple was the Flaming Brazier in Thay (detailed in the 2E powers & pantheons supplement -- incidentally, Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Demihuman deities were perhaps the best FR supplements ever made IMO-- I miss the days when stuff like that would be published), and I imagine it no longer exists.

However, the Church was not totally unorganized; it had an ecclesiastical hierarchy, and even had several monastic orders (the 'Disciples of the Phoenix,' the 'Brothers and Sisters of the True Flame,' and the 'Disciples of the Salamander') and an order of crusaders (the 'Knights of the Fire Drake') associated with it (which I imagine were analogous to denominations), as well as two priestly offices (the 'Tendrils of Flame' and the 'Burning Braziers'). In fact, within individual churches, the priest hierarchy was described as "rigid," though there was never a centralized authority (no archbishops or pope). That makes it even more likely that his faith survived the spellplague-- the Church didn't depend on lines of communication or leadership from other churches, so the destruction of the Flaming Brazier would have had minimal impact outside of Thay.

Further, his faith was *massive*. In Faiths & Avatars, each temple had at least 57 clergy, plus as many lower level clergy as they could support (one Eternal Flame of Kossuth, three Most Fervid Fires, six Numinous Blazes, each of whom had 8 lower ranked clergy under them). Now, I imagine there were many small town churches with either a single priest or like one or two, but the larger temples had more than 60 clergy. With that many clergy, the congregations had to be massive, so there were many followers -- I'm guessing not only individuals whose patron deity was Kossuth, but others who wanted a little insurance against arson. In the more primal communities that had a shaman, the entire community held that shaman in high regard, which suggests to me that there were many primative/nomadic groups of people who were devoted to Kossuth. The clergy performed marriages and funerals and the like. Once annually, each temple put on a massive festival for not just their followers, but for the entire community -- priests of other deities, local and foreign dignataries, wealthy businessmen, and the public at large were all invited. The bottom line of all of this is that this was a serious and popular religion.

For the most part, the elemental powers were largely uninterested in the affairs of people living in Faerun, but he did play an active role in his religion. For example, after the Time of Troubles, he reorganized his ecclesiastical hierarchy, eliminated simple healers (i.e., 2E 'clerics') from his ranks, and created the various monastic and crusader orders. He also obviously answered his clergy's prayers (if nothing else, he granted them spells when they prayed... he also participated/reacted to the various rituals and ceremonies conducted by the clergy).

If I understand correctly, Kossuth didn't transform from a deity to a primordial-- he always was a primordial, we just didn't use that term before (is this right?). So, what do you guys think happened to his church? In one sense, it seems plausible that his power was increased during the Spellplague, as I'm sure the Spellplague involved many fires.

In addition to Firewalkers, his church had crusaders (4e avengers? paladins? warpriests?), monks, and shamans (perhaps 'invokers' in 4E, or some sort of hybrid?).

So, given all of the above, what happened to this religion, and what is its status in the 1470s/1480s? I realize that there is a dearth of canon material to which we may appeal (thanks, wotc), but we are a creative group of people-- what do you all think?
#2
sfdragon
Mar 18, 2011 22:37:55 his church, still burns the fire for all enternity....
#3
omegaphallic
Mar 19, 2011 16:10:30 It is unfortunate that in many wasy 4e realms lacks the depths of its predasessors and for a long time any real support. The answers promised later were never delivered aside from some stuff in the Cormry artical and Sarifal and Auril's Hall.

Instead of more of the quality stuff its been endless Core stuff, that is disppointing to some one who dislikes the POL.

We could really use a Pantheon/Planar book.

Okay, now that I got that off my chest, I'd say it depends on region. In Thay outside of that major temple where his support is strong inspite of Tam, his church would consist of hidden resistance fighters.

Out side of Thay I'd say it is much the same, maybe stronger as his church converts the desperate, with some exceptians. First in regions destroyed by spellplague his church would be destroyed as well. Secondly for Pilgreams of Blue Fire who make a weird connection between blue fire and normal flame Kossuth may recieve thier prayers. Thirdly the revelation that Kossuth is a powerful primordial would be a hot topic of theology in his church.

The fact that the Pantheon has been divided in this odd family of divine subraces Primordials, Gods (greater and normal), Exarchs/Demigods, Archdevils and maybe on the perifery Archfey and primal spirits most have the clergy and lay folk baffled and wondering what they have been praying too.
#4
paulstrait
Mar 19, 2011 16:48:50
It is unfortunate that in many wasy 4e realms lacks the depths of its predasessors and for a long time any real support. The answers promised later were never delivered aside from some stuff in the Cormry artical and Sarifal and Auril's Hall. Instead of more of the quality stuff its been endless Core stuff, that is disppointing to some one who dislikes the POL. We could really use a Pantheon/Planar book.

Speaking of this, does anyone have a sense for why wotc stopped producing non-crunch books? My favorite 3.5 books were the ones that were like 90% lore. I couldn't have been the only one who bought every book like that that they published... Were these books just really poor sellers?
#5
omegaphallic
May 14, 2011 19:04:10 They would not have produced so many if they were. No FR has always been a cash cow, it is the rest of dnd that is the drag which is why FR should be the core setting instead of the ultra dull POL setting which was never meant to be a setting, it just sort of happened.
#6
therion666
Jun 06, 2011 1:53:46
The largest temple was the Flaming Brazier in Thay (detailed in the 2E powers & pantheons supplement -- incidentally, Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Demihuman deities were perhaps the best FR supplements ever made IMO-- I miss the days when stuff like that would be published), and I imagine it no longer exists.

I think one of the reasons the days of the mass of additional supplemental books is gone is that it wasn't that viable economically as whilst a number of the books (core FR campaign and Faiths and Pantheons) were excellent sellers, many of the others were not and cost the company in development time and production.

Your best method is to .......dig out your old books and use them as is, which is exactly what I've done. Yeah it would be nice to see a 4E release of these old items but other than a few pieces of mechanical detail from previous editions, the fluff in them is perfect.

Hell I've even got hold of Volo's guides from 2nd Ed to use and they were cheap as hell.

I think the 4E book states it pretty well 'it's your Forgotten Realms' so use anything that you like the look of.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 paulstrait Mar 18, 2011 17:18:42	[I just made a similar post in the 'running the realms' forum, but I realized this might be a better place for it]. What do you guys think is going on with the Church of Kossuth these days? On the one hand, I suspect many of Kossuth's "followers" are arsonists (and perhaps people who smoke cigarrettes inside western US national parks), but before the Spellplague, he did have a rather organized faith. The largest temple was the Flaming Brazier in Thay (detailed in the 2E powers & pantheons supplement -- incidentally, Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Demihuman deities were perhaps the best FR supplements ever made IMO-- I miss the days when stuff like that would be published), and I imagine it no longer exists. However, the Church was not totally unorganized; it had an ecclesiastical hierarchy, and even had several monastic orders (the 'Disciples of the Phoenix,' the 'Brothers and Sisters of the True Flame,' and the 'Disciples of the Salamander') and an order of crusaders (the 'Knights of the Fire Drake') associated with it (which I imagine were analogous to denominations), as well as two priestly offices (the 'Tendrils of Flame' and the 'Burning Braziers'). In fact, within individual churches, the priest hierarchy was described as "rigid," though there was never a centralized authority (no archbishops or pope). That makes it even more likely that his faith survived the spellplague-- the Church didn't depend on lines of communication or leadership from other churches, so the destruction of the Flaming Brazier would have had minimal impact outside of Thay. Further, his faith was massive. In Faiths & Avatars, each temple had at least 57 clergy, plus as many lower level clergy as they could support (one Eternal Flame of Kossuth, three Most Fervid Fires, six Numinous Blazes, each of whom had 8 lower ranked clergy under them). Now, I imagine there were many small town churches with either a single priest or like one or two, but the larger temples had more than 60 clergy. With that many clergy, the congregations had to be massive, so there were many followers -- I'm guessing not only individuals whose patron deity was Kossuth, but others who wanted a little insurance against arson. In the more primal communities that had a shaman, the entire community held that shaman in high regard, which suggests to me that there were many primative/nomadic groups of people who were devoted to Kossuth. The clergy performed marriages and funerals and the like. Once annually, each temple put on a massive festival for not just their followers, but for the entire community -- priests of other deities, local and foreign dignataries, wealthy businessmen, and the public at large were all invited. The bottom line of all of this is that this was a serious and popular religion. For the most part, the elemental powers were largely uninterested in the affairs of people living in Faerun, but he did play an active role in his religion. For example, after the Time of Troubles, he reorganized his ecclesiastical hierarchy, eliminated simple healers (i.e., 2E 'clerics') from his ranks, and created the various monastic and crusader orders. He also obviously answered his clergy's prayers (if nothing else, he granted them spells when they prayed... he also participated/reacted to the various rituals and ceremonies conducted by the clergy). If I understand correctly, Kossuth didn't transform from a deity to a primordial-- he always was a primordial, we just didn't use that term before (is this right?). So, what do you guys think happened to his church? In one sense, it seems plausible that his power was increased during the Spellplague, as I'm sure the Spellplague involved many fires. In addition to Firewalkers, his church had crusaders (4e avengers? paladins? warpriests?), monks, and shamans (perhaps 'invokers' in 4E, or some sort of hybrid?). So, given all of the above, what happened to this religion, and what is its status in the 1470s/1480s? I realize that there is a dearth of canon material to which we may appeal (thanks, wotc), but we are a creative group of people-- what do you all think?
#2 sfdragon Mar 18, 2011 22:37:55	his church, still burns the fire for all enternity....
#3 omegaphallic Mar 19, 2011 16:10:30	It is unfortunate that in many wasy 4e realms lacks the depths of its predasessors and for a long time any real support. The answers promised later were never delivered aside from some stuff in the Cormry artical and Sarifal and Auril's Hall. Instead of more of the quality stuff its been endless Core stuff, that is disppointing to some one who dislikes the POL. We could really use a Pantheon/Planar book. Okay, now that I got that off my chest, I'd say it depends on region. In Thay outside of that major temple where his support is strong inspite of Tam, his church would consist of hidden resistance fighters. Out side of Thay I'd say it is much the same, maybe stronger as his church converts the desperate, with some exceptians. First in regions destroyed by spellplague his church would be destroyed as well. Secondly for Pilgreams of Blue Fire who make a weird connection between blue fire and normal flame Kossuth may recieve thier prayers. Thirdly the revelation that Kossuth is a powerful primordial would be a hot topic of theology in his church. The fact that the Pantheon has been divided in this odd family of divine subraces Primordials, Gods (greater and normal), Exarchs/Demigods, Archdevils and maybe on the perifery Archfey and primal spirits most have the clergy and lay folk baffled and wondering what they have been praying too.
#4 paulstrait Mar 19, 2011 16:48:50	It is unfortunate that in many wasy 4e realms lacks the depths of its predasessors and for a long time any real support. The answers promised later were never delivered aside from some stuff in the Cormry artical and Sarifal and Auril's Hall. Instead of more of the quality stuff its been endless Core stuff, that is disppointing to some one who dislikes the POL. We could really use a Pantheon/Planar book. Speaking of this, does anyone have a sense for why wotc stopped producing non-crunch books? My favorite 3.5 books were the ones that were like 90% lore. I couldn't have been the only one who bought every book like that that they published... Were these books just really poor sellers?
#5 omegaphallic May 14, 2011 19:04:10	They would not have produced so many if they were. No FR has always been a cash cow, it is the rest of dnd that is the drag which is why FR should be the core setting instead of the ultra dull POL setting which was never meant to be a setting, it just sort of happened.
#6 therion666 Jun 06, 2011 1:53:46	The largest temple was the Flaming Brazier in Thay (detailed in the 2E powers & pantheons supplement -- incidentally, Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Demihuman deities were perhaps the best FR supplements ever made IMO-- I miss the days when stuff like that would be published), and I imagine it no longer exists. I think one of the reasons the days of the mass of additional supplemental books is gone is that it wasn't that viable economically as whilst a number of the books (core FR campaign and Faiths and Pantheons) were excellent sellers, many of the others were not and cost the company in development time and production. Your best method is to .......dig out your old books and use them as is, which is exactly what I've done. Yeah it would be nice to see a 4E release of these old items but other than a few pieces of mechanical detail from previous editions, the fluff in them is perfect. Hell I've even got hold of Volo's guides from 2nd Ed to use and they were cheap as hell. I think the 4E book states it pretty well 'it's your Forgotten Realms' so use anything that you like the look of.