So, at the risk of sounding completely stupid, whats the deal? I don't care about spoilers... I'll eventually get around to reading that series but not right-away.
Shadowrealm Spoiler
This takes place in post-Spellplague Faerun, in a tavern in Daerlun. Magadon, friend of Erevis Cale and Drasek Riven, is speaking with the now demi-god Riven.
[Mags]: "Faerun thinks Mask is dead", I said.
[An excellent descriptive paragraph ensues that I will here skip...]
[Riven] "He is, but not forever. Let's keep that our secret, Mags."
[Mags]: "Faerun thinks Mask is dead", I said.
[An excellent descriptive paragraph ensues that I will here skip...]
[Riven] "He is, but not forever. Let's keep that our secret, Mags."
At least he made it back into Mother Shar's loving embrace.
:P
so what you see is not always what you get, as it is all true from a certain point of view.....
mask is gone but yet he is still here.
...mask is gone but yet he is still here.
No wonder I'm confused.
More of 4e's wonderful 'ambiguity'.
No wonder I'm confused.
More of 4e's wonderful 'ambiguity'.
I laughed when I first read that post, knowing this would be your response. :chuckles:
my rogues worship Tymora or the Fey Jester.
alot of luck and a few good jokes along the =way, the more the merrier.
and if you dont like it, then tell me again after you reached the bottom of your next flagon
I still can't believe they left the god of thieves out of a campaign setting to avoid spoiling a novel series. I'm surprised they didn't leave Sembia out while they were at it.
Surprise ain't the right word to describe what they did to the Realms with the Spellplague et al.
As for Mask ...
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... it seems that his Chosen were imbued with divine essence that Mask gained not from Shar, but while he was a deity/power himself. He kept that as a secret even from the Nightsinger. It looks that Riven took that bit along and keeps it, as well as/or Erevis' child, whom Mask transported into the future (read Paul S. Kemp's story in Realms of War). If the latter is the case, the current 1480 setting might not have the wean old enough to take on Mask's mantle (methinks we do not even know whether it will be a he or she) just yet. I'd welcome some deity of thievery like Xan Yae (Complete Divine, Greyhawk (?)) to the Realms.
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The ascended (Ephyrasian?) sharran Lessinor managed to create his own divine niche and his essence could grow into the god Mask he was several years from the Netherese age through portfolio thievery and worship. Shar only managed to absorb her own parts she invested in Lessinors ascension.
So now Mask's Chosen get to make all the whiney 4e players 'feel bad' about their inadequacies?
Seriously... is ANYONE steering this ship anymore?
I wouldn't have minded if they had replaced him with Vhaeraun (whom I like better anyway), but they killed him as well. I mean, WTH?
How can you have a setting without a god that is responsible for one of the main four character classes in D&D?
Oh... wait... they also got rid of the gods of magic...
I guess to keep this path of logic up, they'll next eliminate all the gods of fighters and priests, too.
50% of all player classes in D&D now have no god to worship... how peculiar.
Shar is the current god of thieves, well at least the shadow thieves answer to her currently.
Shar is the god of freakin' everything in 4e.
If I were to run 4eFR (which will NEVER happen), I'd have Shaundakul take the portfolio, so I could at least give the whole thing a 'Hermes' spin.
an no, nobody is steering the ship.
its headed toward that iceberg over yonder
bad mistakes of fe realms:
death of mask
combination of sehanine and selune
death of fenya
combination of whats her name and sune.
(welll the three fold goddess part ne'er made much since anyway...)
using the pol quasi setting as a template for it.
death of helm
death of Eilistraee
and most importantly trhe biggest mistake of all
Glorifing that gothic bimbo with a goddess of death complex SHAR.
death to shar death to shar death to shar
ummm, I guess I better stop now....
However, out of everything sfdragon mentioned, I think the only thing that still manages to stick in my craw with all the new changes is the death of Mask. It seems very unnecessary, and only hurts the setting, IMHO.
Probably why it took me so long to come to the realization and start this thread - I heard the rumours, but wasn't willing to accept it.
Even Eilistraee absorbing Vhaeraun and becoming 'the Masked Lady' (and becoming a new FR god of thieves) would have been way better then this. There needs to be some non-evil deity of 'things that occur under the cover of darkness' - Shar is just so B&W that you really can't be neutral with her.
Where have all the 'shades of grey' gone?
As for Mask ...
I'd disagree on one point.
that one point...
Erevis was not yet a demigod when he fathered his son. He was a shade, and assumedly passed on some funky genes, but there's no reason to suspect Cale's ascendance would at all affect his son in the way you suggested. The kid shouldn't be holding any god-like powers. Erevis left his portion of Mask's power in Cania.
Gods linked to character classes always seemed silly to me. Mask is better represented as a deity of shadow than a god worshiped by thieves.snipped.
thought he was the god of shadows
shar was the goddess of darkness....
Gods linked to character classes always seemed silly to me. Mask is better represented as a deity of shadow than a god worshiped by thieves. Thieves don't seem to be a pious lot to begin with. Same with Torm. Valor is great concept for a deity to sponsor. The god of paladins, however? not so much. Markus showed how ludicrous this can become. Who is the god of clerics? Now that's funny.
I would agree if it was like the god of "rogues" but thiefs come from pretty much any class. A wizard can be a thief using magic, same with a cleric. A fighter can beat you up and take your stuff. Shoot, THATS what adventures all all about. :P
Shame on you for having such thoughts! :P
I'm sure those people they are murdering and robbing had it coming. ;)
Are you trying to say that Hasbro is producing a game that teaches kids all about breaking & entering?!
Not to mention Demon Binding, War Magic, Sword Fighting, and of course GOD SLAYING! ;)
I'd disagree on one point.that one point...Erevis was not yet a demigod when he fathered his son. He was a shade, and assumedly passed on some funky genes, but there's no reason to suspect Cale's ascendance would at all affect his son in the way you suggested. The kid shouldn't be holding any god-like powers. Erevis left his portion of Mask's power in Cania.
Gods linked to character classes always seemed silly to me. Mask is better represented as a deity of shadow than a god worshiped by thieves. Thieves don't seem to be a pious lot to begin with. Same with Torm. Valor is great concept for a deity to sponsor. The god of paladins, however? not so much. Markus showed how ludicrous this can become. Who is the god of clerics? Now that's funny.
-'Thievery', one of his portfolios, is an everyday thing in a pseudo-Middle Ages campaign world like the Forgotten Realms. Thieves need not pay Mask homage for him to become empowered though their actions. And, of course, being the patron of thieves, he encourages and supports thieves, just like the Medici encourages and supported art.
the alignment was fine, he wasn't thoroughly evil, just stole stuff
Xan Yae is cool tough
Well, yes.ShowT'could well be that Mask installed a bit of his essence while transporting the child into the future. My bet would still be that Riven (he must be something like demigod or quasigod, right?) is holding the largest part of the essence and may give it to the child when the time is right.
If I were to run 4eFR (which will NEVER happen), I'd have Shaundakul take the portfolio, so I could at least give the whole thing a 'Hermes' spin.
Did we ever find out what happened to Shaundakul? I seemed to have missed it... Seriously, new 4th Edition Forgotten Realms just screams power upswing for Shaundakul. Nevermind Myth Drannor back up and running again.
Did we ever find out what happened to Shaundakul? I seemed to have missed it... Seriously, new 4th Edition Forgotten Realms just screams power upswing for Shaundakul. Nevermind Myth Drannor back up and running again.
no, but I'm sure it will go on as something like this:
the answer my friend is blowing in the wind, the answer is blowing in the wind.......
if they dont up and kill him, he will up and become a primal spirit or an arch fey too......
Did we ever find out what happened to Shaundakul? I seemed to have missed it... Seriously, new 4th Edition Forgotten Realms just screams power upswing for Shaundakul. Nevermind Myth Drannor back up and running again.
That What I said, you would think with the rise of Myth Drannor, and and all the "re discovery" Shaundakul would be "leading the way" but no
that makes too much sense That What I said, you would think with the rise of Myth Drannor, and and all the "re discovery" Shaundakul would be "leading the way" but no
-Sense. Feh. Who needs that?
I'm telling you the 4E motto should've been.
4EFR: Just Roll With It.
On a off topic note : Shaunkakul's holy symbol will be my next tat :P ( Iknow Lk, I'm carzy ;))
I was merely confused, is all (and still am, but not nearly as much).
I really don't want the 'powers that be' to think I'm starting crap again.
In the official, 4e Realms, Mask is dead. So what? Who cares? Aside from the shackled LFR DMs, NONE of us has to pay any attention to that - Mask is alive and well and living wherever, however we want him to be in our own games.
Of course, in my homebrew, he's called Masque... but just because it looks Kewler.
In the official, 4e Realms, Mask is dead.
Does it say he is dead anywhere in 4E material thus far? Or don't they actually tell anything about him? For "not telling" does not exactly mean "dead" or "not existing" in a world which can be turned on its head with the next article or sourcebook.
That said, Moander aside, Mask as such is probably the hardest one to return to life. While the "dead" gods usually linger on in the Astral Plane (yeah, I stick to AD&D/3E lore), he was totally consumed by mum. And we all know what mum stands for. No body, no essence, no "Servant of the Dead" feat available for him. And Riven won't give up his Quasi-/Demigod status just yet (or for the sake of some would-be-god adventurer).
In the official, 4e Realms, Mask is dead. So what? Who cares? Aside from the shackled LFR DMs, NONE of us has to pay any attention to that - Mask is alive and well and living wherever, however we want him to be in our own games.
Of course, in my homebrew, he's called Masque... but just because it looks Kewler.
Damn straight. In the short FR 4E game I played the one pally worshipped Shaudakul too even though there is no mention of him.
I would never follow any real "rules" for the gods. They should be a tool of the DM and do what the DM needs them to do IMO. I never liked statting the gods except for aspects/avatars that are out there now.
Does it say he is dead anywhere in 4E material thus far? Or don't they actually tell anything about him? For "not telling" does not exactly mean "dead" or "not existing" in a world which can be turned on its head with the next article or sourcebook.
Indeed.
I think the 4E Sourcebooks could've be intentionally vague because it's intended that Paul Kemp's novels do bring Mask back. Some may find this approach annoying, but at least we can count on whatever story we get being very well written.
Shaundakul would definitely have made tons of sense. :sigh:
Does it say he is dead anywhere in 4E material thus far? Or don't they actually tell anything about him? For "not telling" does not exactly mean "dead" or "not existing" in a world which can be turned on its head with the next article or sourcebook.
Which was the point that actually caused me to start this thread in the first place - it's all very confusing.
I've been hearing the last couple of months that he is dead, but when I went to go find some info I couldn't find any, so I came here for answers.
And although people were very helpful, I still don't have a 100% straight answer, simply because there isn't one.
Having mysteries in a setting is good, but not knowing whether important gods are still active or not is just plain stupid, IMHO. Shaundakul not so much but Mask was always a major player.
Having mysteries in a seting is good, but not knowing whether important gods are still active or not is just plain stupid, IMHO. Shaundakul not so much but Mask was always a major player.
Again, I'm betting we'll eventually have an answer, with that answer coming with the conclusion of Paul's next series.
Until then, confusion will reign.
Until then, confusion will reign.
Definately quotable. :D
I'm now picturing a clandestine 4e design meeting taking place around five years ago (and everyone present is masked and wearing Cobra uniforms), and the main speaker ends his arguments with THAT statement... and then throws his hands up into the air and gives a hearty 'evil villain' laugh. :D
Sorry... perhaps I DO watch way too many cartoons... :embarrass
And although people were very helpful, I still don't have a 100% straight answer, simply because there isn't one.
What Riven says about Mask in Shadowrealm's final pages seems like a pretty clear answer. *shrug*
Definately quotable. :D
I'm now picturing a clandestine 4e design metting taking place around five years ago (and everyone present is masked and wearing Cobra uniforms), and the main speaker ends his arguments with THAT statement... and then throws his hands up into the air and gives a hearty 'evil villain' laugh. :D
Sorry... perhaps I DO watch way too many cartoons... :embarrass
What Riven says about Mask in Shadowrealm's final pages seems like a pretty clear answer. *shrug*
Yeah, I'm content with Riven's words, for now. I think they promise one hell of a story, as well as Mask's probable return.
Which answers absolutely NOTHING in regards to whether he exists or not in the 4e setting (a lot can happen in a hundred years).
The confusion is partly my fault, because the title of the thread is misleading - for the first time ever, people have different opinions on what constitutes "now".
Have hope and dream, for Mask may be dead, but he is far from gone.
The only thing answered by THAT is that Mask is indeed "no more" at the end of that novel series, which, if I am correct, takes place during the tail-end of 3e.
Which answers absolutely NOTHING in regards to whether he exists or not in the 4e setting (a lot can happen in a hundred years).
The confusion is partly my fault, because the title of the thread is misleading - for the first time ever, people have different opinions on what constitutes "now".
Even if you choose to disregard everything remotely related to the new (and "now" :P ) Realms of Spellplague fame, you still have the same situation in your 3E Realms as we have in our 4E Realms:
The Situation
Lessinor or is gone forever, annihilated by his mama. Erevis Cale is dead, and his third of Kesson Rel's/Mask's power lies with Mephistopheles. Rivalen Tanthul holds another third.
Here's the most relevant part: Riven holds a third of said power. He believes Mask isn't gone forever. Whether this ends up being because of his own assumption of the role, or whatever, Riven thinks Mask will return.
No matter which of the two timelines we use, this fact doesn't change.
As to the question of "whether Mask exists in the 4E Realms", that has been answered. I quoted Riven's words pronouncing Mask dead. Dead=non-existant, in this case. He also said that Mask won't necessarily stay that way, forever.
I believe Mask will be back. I'm not sure how much less subtle a hint Mr. Kemp could've given.
Here's the most relevant part: Riven holds a third of said power. He believes Mask isn't gone forever. Whether this ends up being because of his own assumption of the role, or whatever, Riven thinks Mask will return.
No matter which of the two timelines we use, this fact doesn't change.
As to the question of "whether Mask exists in the 4E Realms", that has been answered. I quoted Riven's words pronouncing Mask dead. Dead=non-existant, in this case. He also said that Mask won't necessarily stay that way, forever.
I believe Mask will be back. I'm not sure how much less subtle a hint Mr. Kemp could've given.
Which means in most folks games, the second Everis Cale series hasn't even happened yet (nor The Lady penitent, for that matter... thank goodness).
Not really - most people's Realms games were set around 1372 DR - the 'current' time before the GHotR and the 4e announcements.
Which means in most folks games, the second Everis Cale series hasn't even happened yet (nor The Lady penitent, for that matter... thank goodness).
True, that. My mistake.
While I'd almost definitely let the events of The Twilight War play out, were I in your shoes, I'd be glad to ignore The Lady Penitent. I really like the way things fell into place in Sembia, for instance. That would be an alarming backdrop on which to play. Plus, though Lessinor's gone, it's easy enough to bring Mask back. I fully expect to see him again in the 4E Realms. Even the 4E supplements avoid mentioning him, altogether, other than a bried mention of him in connection with the Fane of Shadows.
Eilistraee, though, they whacked for good.
I didn't like this one bit. I don't recall it being necessary for the culmination of the plot, either. Were I still playing in the pre-Spellplague timeline, I might even allow everything from that series but the killing of Eilistraee to take place. I don't mind some of the drow becoming dark elves one bit. I kind of liked that. I just didn't like that the real goal was the banishing drow to the Underdark for all time (or, at least for all 4E's time). That was kind of B.S., in my book. I understand the reasoning, I just don't like it at all.The only thing answered by THAT is that Mask is indeed "no more" at the end of that novel series, which, if I am correct, takes place during the tail-end of 3e.
Which answers absolutely NOTHING in regards to whether he exists or not in the 4e setting (a lot can happen in a hundred years).
The confusion is partly my fault, because the title of the thread is misleading - for the first time ever, people have different opinions on what constitutes "now".
Mask is still gone in 4E Realms, per the 4E FRCG.
Mask is still gone in 4E Realms, per the 4E FRCG.
Indeed. Though, I have high hopes that it's temporary.
Indeed. Though, I have high hopes that it's temporary.
Sure, that's definitely possible given Riven's words at the end of Shadowrealm.
Novels kinda blow when you try to tell a story like that because there is not the monthly filler story that prepares you for the return. So you wait and stew until ANOTHER trilogy comes out with an ending that is pretty predictable. Hell even if the new god isn't called Mask it is going to most likely be a god of Shadow that somehow can hold Shar at bay or some such thingy. Or not. Who knows ? Who cares?
I like Mask and think he has some panache as a god of thieves so if I run a game again I use him. I like Shaundakul and will do the same. For me the books and inf ohave given me enough to take the ball and run with it. I don't need to know every tiny, teensy bit of info about everything going on in the Realms anymore. I need an outline and I fill in the blanks. The imagination is a pretty nice tool for that.
Like I have said before we RPG fans are not SOL like comic and TV fans are. We have the power to change whatever we want in a setting, the fans of other things cannot make Spidey's Brand New Day go away or make Heroes as good as it was in the first season but we can fix whatever we felt the designers "messed up". That is what the RPG fan has over other fans, freedom and power over their favorite setting and system. Novel fans are totally hosed though, sorry.;)
Like I have said before we RPG fans are not SOL like comic and TV fans are. We have the power to change whatever we want in a setting, the fans of other things cannot make Spidey's Brand New Day go away or make Heroes as good as it was in the first season but we can fix whatever we felt the designers "messed up". That is what the RPG fan has over other fans, freedom and power over their favorite setting and system. Novel fans are totally hosed though, sorry.;)
All true, but not everyone is as willing to cast aside canon as you are, Rauric. That said, I agree with you for the most part. I prefer to stick with canon, only parting with it when it diverges pretty far from my liking. At the same time, I don't feel beholden to it. When I decide to diverge from canon, it's no agonizing thing.
I enjoy Paul Kemp's story enough to embrace it. I can wait for the canonical return of Mask. Shaundakul, though, that might require some "houseruled fluff". ;) Really, I probably won't worry about it unless it suits a storyline or character concept.
Shar as the goddess of theives could actually be cool. We need more elaboration on that aspect of her, and those that worship her in that arena. That woman really needs more character, and somewhat less stupid objectives.
Hmm... what she really needs.. is to get laid. We need Shar falling in love and coming to her senses :P
Whereas, Selune - The Betrayer... I just want axed.
As far as Mask goes. Although they made some things iffy sounding, really I think they're just trying to (over-)simplify things, and Mask is toast.
Shar as the goddess of theives could actually be cool. We need more elaboration on that aspect of her, and those that worship her in that arena. That woman really needs more character, and somewhat less stupid objectives.
Hmm... what she really needs.. is to get laid. We need Shar falling in love and coming to her senses :P
Whereas, Selune - The Betrayer... I just want axed.
Blasphemer!
but really, I think alot of people will agree with me when I say I'm a little Sharred out. Cyric and Her both need a little time out of the lime light. Now I'm not saying Mask should take their place but giving Shar that power would not be helpful to the situation.
Mystra's Chosens, at the height of the cataclysm between Shar and Selune, could have been "tether points" for holding reality together. Their power as Chosens then merge with Abeir and Toril, preventing the destruction of the Toril multiverse. It could have killed some Chosen, driven others mad, and certainly de-powered them after reality was saved.
Heck, they could've killed off Shar and Selune at the end of Shadowrealm, and Mask could've figured out a way out of being absorbed by Shar. And while I'm at it, Cyric should have died in an "oops I fell on my own sword because I'm an idiotic deity" moment, allowing Bane to again take center stage.
I'm sick to death of Shar as well, and Selune as portrayed is extremely boring. Since the designers wanted a catastrophic spellplague and a re-orienting of planes, and merging Toril with bits of Abeir, all that stuff, it would've made way more sense to kill off both Shar and Selune in a massive battle and have their energies scatter, destroy, and mutate things through the Toril-multiverse. Mystra could have survived simply as a goddess of magic without the weave (perhaps her power and the Weave were both dependent on her parent-goddesses). They could have also used it as a means to get rid of all Chosens everywhere. Mystra, depowered, could have devoted her energies to saving magic and teaching mortals how to access it after the cataclysm.
Mystra's Chosens, at the height of the cataclysm between Shar and Selune, could have been "tether points" for holding reality together. Their power as Chosens then merge with Abeir and Toril, preventing the destruction of the Toril multiverse. It could have killed some Chosen, driven others mad, and certainly de-powered them after reality was saved.
Heck, they could've killed off Shar and Selune at the end of Shadowrealm, and Mask could've figured out a way out of being absorbed by Shar. And while I'm at it, Cyric should have died in an "oops I fell on my own sword because I'm an idiotic deity" moment, allowing Bane to again take center stage.
Wow.
I'm not one who is prone to venting about and/or hating the "new" Realms, but this scenario is (mostly) far superior to that which WotC devised after months of planning.
That is both amusing and sad.
And although people were very helpful, I still don't have a 100% straight answer, simply because there isn't one.
By default, Mask is dead. That some of his essence still lingers does not exactly mean that "he" survived, but divine essence collected by him. If there is any feasible scenario, it would be a Bane/Iyachtu Xvim* one. But by default, he's gone.
*Yes, I wrote that out of my head :D
Selune as portrayed is extremely boring.
That is cause they never do anything with Selune!
With her power boost to Greater, I am really hoping she and her followers get more involved.
You can 'obliterate' whatever you want in a setting - Ed himself did so many times (he killed Azoun - a mainstay of the setting since the beginning). However, Ed had a rule-of-thumb that he gave to the early designers and they all stuck to it - a rule that is now completely ignored and why the Realms looks like a steaming pile.
That simple rule is "For every plothook you 'use up', create three more to take it's place". That means when you remove a deity from the setting, replace it with something far more interesting, surrounded by juicy plothooks. You DO NOT simply 'erase' said god and then move on - thats POOR DESIGN!!!
And you sure as hell don't take a goddess you mostly ignored for three editions and make her a greater goddess, and then continue to ignore her. WTH?!
The designers need to realize they can use the other end of their pencils once in awhile.
Then again... I've seen some of their ideas... perhaps not. :88E:
I don't mind changes... just ill-conceived changes, with little in the way of reasoning, and then absolutely no post-plot development (as is the case of Selune, who became a greater godddes..... AND?!)
You can 'obliterate' whatever you want in a setting - Ed himself did so many times (he killed Azoun - a mainstay of the setting since the beginning). However, Ed had a rule-of-thumb that he gave to the early designers and they all stuck to it - a rule that is now completely ignored and why the Realms looks like a steaming pile.
That simple rule is "For every plothook you 'use up', create three more to take it's place". That means when you remove a deity from the setting, replace it with something far more interesting, surrounded by juicy plothooks. You DO NOT simply 'erase' said god and then move on - thats POOR DESIGN!!!
And you sure as hell don't take a goddess you mostly ignored for three editions and make her a greater goddess, and then continue to ignore her. WTH?!
The designers need to realize they can use the other end of their pencils once in awhile.
Then again... I've seen some of their ideas... perhaps not. :88E:
QFT and becuase if its worth saying, its worth repeating.
I don't mind changes... just ill-conceived changes, with little in the way of reasoning, and then absolutely no post-plot development (as is the case of Selune, who became a greater godddes..... AND?!) [emphasis added]
I hadn't looked at it that way.And you sure as hell don't take a goddess you mostly ignored for three editions and make her a greater goddess, and then continue to ignore her. WTH?!
Not that it necessarily negates your points, but I would guess they are sticking to the concept of leaving the spotlight for the PCs and the relevant details to the DMs.
By default, Mask is dead. That some of his essence still lingers does not exactly mean that "he" survived, but divine essence collected by him. If there is any feasible scenario, it would be a Bane/Iyachtu Xvim* one. But by default, he's gone.
*Yes, I wrote that out of my head :D
Mask was simply an (extremely cool) aspect of the Mistshadow, who in turn was never really killed by Cyric, who himself ill-fatedly swapped avatar bodies with the Masked Lady, whose two halves have always been the gnome deity Brandobaris (duh), who is simply the Lady of the Mists worshiped by folk who are not taller than this line _____. Fools! :evillaugh
The designers need to realize they can use the other end of their pencils once in awhile.