Thank you!
Yeah the campaign setting didn't mention anything and I need to know if she still lives alone in Shadowdale.
-You answered your own question. We (as in, us players/fans/customers) don't know. There exists an apocryphal "Setting Guidebook" that the authors/designers have, that was used (and may still be used) as reference material when the 3e to 4e transition was actually happening, but we aren't privy to the information it contains. Being as that we know, as per Rich Baker, that the "fates" of various deities are/were written in that book, for the aforementioned people to be aware of, it would make sense for the "fates" of various NPCs as well to be contained within the book as well.
I know Elminster retained his immortality despite losing all powers associated with being a Chosen of Mystra, but did Storm die? If so, how?
-We have precedence that when a Chosen of a deity dies, they lose the powers granted by the slain deity (Sharrupak, the former Chosen of the slain Gilgeam is the example). So, Elminster's apparent continued immortality should not be stemming from his former status as Chosen of Mystra. That he continues to be among the living isn't abnormal, though. We know that magicians of power often use magic to prolong their lives, either through spells (like Wish), or through certain items (like Potions of Longetivity). Given that Storm Silverhand was in the same upper echelon as Elminster, the above- if she is still among the living in 1,479 DR!- would also apply to her.
I would propose that Elminster (and perhaps other Chosen of Mystra) continue to survive due to long term exposure to Mystra's Divine Essence. Mystra was unique in that she stored bits of her divine essence within her Chosen as a "back up" should something befall her. We don't know what happened to that essence, it could still be there, or it could have been ripped away (at least in some cases) and faded along with Mystra.
However, consider how long Elminster has been a Chosen and how much exposure he has had to the divine essence of (multiple) Mystra's. In effect, you could argue, that it is possible that some of that "rubbed off" on him... leaving him with some unique abilities even after it was taken away. In this case, immortality would be one benefit, making him in effect an almost quasi-deity.
Of course, having such benefits after such long exposure could strictly be a roll of the dice. We know that the Simbul is alive, despite the fact that we also know that Alustriel Silverhand died of old age.
Since there is nothing official out yet about Storm, things can go either way for you. If you need her in your game for whatever reason, there is enough evidence out there that says it is possible that she survived, and certainly very limited evidence to the contrary.
My money is on Storm, but I do not expect her to live in Shadowdale. As I envision it, Elminster occasionally stays on the Silverhand farm, but the farm is otherwise maintained by allies, and she does not reside there.
That is just speculation though.
Gomez
I hope someone else is able to better confirm this, or else I've lapsed into temporary insanity. ;)
My interpretation is that she died because she felt that her time had come - that is, she had no desire to be immortal, and therefore allowed herself to die, peacefully, of old age.
Gomez
Ed's glorious minion The Hooded One replied that ED said atleast one of them was still alive during 4e, but NDAs abound could say no more.
It was stated that Alustriel 'passed away'. The context implied that it was peacefully, but it was not explicitly stated how she died.
My interpretation is that she died because she felt that her time had come - that is, she had no desire to be immortal, and therefore allowed herself to die, peacefully, of old age.
Gomez
That's an interesting take, Gomez. However, like LK I was under the impression that once a deity of a Chosen died, the Chosen lost his power and thus became "mortal" again. I figured the only reason certain Chosen of Mystra continued to live was due to plot armor. :P
However, you might be right. If that is the case, it makes me wonder why Elminster has not chosen death. From what we know, his insanity has continued to progress, and he's experiencing some serious issues at the moment. He's always struck me as a character that somewhat accepted the burden of immortality somewhat grudgingly, as being immortal it means that he is fated to lose virtually everyone he ever cares for unless they are also immortal. That includes children.
It seems to me that if there were to be one Chosen out of all of them to embrace such a fate that it would be Elminster. I mean, from his perspective, he's been around longer than any of the others. Why does Alustriel get to go out peacefully, leaving him holding the bag? Hasn't he served his time, doesn't he deserve a final rest?
I'd imagine he'd be kinda peeved. Especially considering that Mystra is dead, and it doesn't look like she is coming back. If he is sticking around, there must be a reason for it, which in turn makes Alustriel's actions look like she took the easy way out.
it deals with El, its important,
El isn't insane, he just has all the fragments of the weave that were in the chosen who passed away willing or slain. He refusing to cast magic because he is sort of a demi-deity and doesn't want the assassination culprits to realize the "MYSTRA" isn't truely gone by seeing how powerful he really is. Simbul is an illusion created by El to further the facade until he can figure out what to do with the power.
However, you might be right. If that is the case, it makes me wonder why Elminster has not chosen death.
-The plot armor you just spoke of...
I mean when Mystra died in ToT there was no mention of the "chosen" losing their status then was there?
-The rules of reality changed during the Time of Troubles, and as such, anything that happened during the Time of Troubles needs to have a metaphorical asterisk attached to it when brought up during academic debate. For example, when Mystryl committed suicide, the Weave was sundered, and magic stopped working temporarily, until she reconstituted herself as Mystra. During the Time of Troubles, between Mystra being barred from the planes by Ao and having her mandate as deity taken away, in a figure of speech (like all of the other deities) and eventually being directly killed, magic still functioned.
They are not allowed to die... they must live forever, until every last penny is bled out of them. :P
Anyhow, yeah... one of them is alive (Storm or Dove), but not both, and we have not been told which (which makes me wonder if the designers have even made that decision yet).
Either way, does it matter? I still can't tell them apart...
Either way, does it matter? I still can't tell them apart...
I can, I am not overly worried by the fact that one of them is alive... I am most peeved that the other one is going to be dead. Not least because they are the most non-magical (in comparison to, for example, the destruction of a dozen Thayans at once) and most "local" of the Chosen... and still we only get a 50% survival rate.
As the Cerullean Wave washed-over Shadowdale, an unearthly scream tore from Elminster's tower. It was a scream of pure terror, and unimaginable agony... and it came from the lips of the Old Mage himself. The two sisters, both Chosen of Mystra, huddled in Storm's cottage, awaiting the unavoidable doom quickly approaching. They hugged one final time as the magical chaos washed over them. The last thing they both felt was their flesh burning and melting away, and their scream joined those of thousands of others across Faerûn...
In the morning she awoke... cold and afraid, but also confused. She looked down upon her hands - long and nimble fingers of a practiced spellcaster, and yet showing evidence of the scars and callous of a seasoned warrior. "Who am I?" she said. I remember... pain... and before that just a jumble of memories. It's all so confusing, she thought. Why do I have the memories of two people, and yet... I see them as if looking through a window... as if they happened to someone else, and I was merely a hidden observer?
Thus was born Dorma Silverfalcon, first of the Swordmages.
Or we could just make her an Ettin. :P
LK-
Yeah, it's pretty obvious why Elminster lived: plot armor and cash. But strictly from an in character perspective, I think the old goat would have chosen death if the option was on the table. ;)
It just makes anyone who chose death (if that is the case) look like a total cop out, leaving him holding the bag. Which, of course, isn't a very heroic thing to do. :P
Yeah, it's pretty obvious why Elminster lived: plot armor and cash. But strictly from an in character perspective, I think the old goat would have chosen death if the option was on the table. ;)
-In a way, I don't think Elminster can ever die, even from an in-game perspective. If Elminster died, regardless of the cause, how many idiot adventurers would suddenly come running to try and resurrect him? The DM in one of my D&D games did that. Torm, the patron deity of my character, died, and my character (a converted Fighter, none the less) made it his duty to find a way to bring Torm back. Eventually, he did, and Torm was none too happy- he "passed on the mantle" intentionally, and I just ruined all of his carefully laid plans.
-In a way, I don't think Elminster can ever die, even from an in-game perspective. If Elminster died, regardless of the cause, how many idiot adventurers would suddenly come running to try and resurrect him? The DM in one of my D&D games did that. Torm, the patron deity of my character, died, and my character (a converted Fighter, none the less) made it his duty to find a way to bring Torm back. Eventually, he did, and Torm was none too happy- he "passed on the mantle" intentionally, and I just ruined all of his carefully laid plans.
Well that's the thing about resurrection, it only works if the spirit wants to come back. Otherwise, it fails.
In a way, it is kinda cruel to keep Elminster alive considering the state he is in, and of course it is likely just to get worse. At some point in the future, we're going to see a novel with Elminster tied down to a bed in an insane asylum, while soiling himself and completely delusional. ;)
That's the path he's traveling down right now. :P
What role does he even play in 4E FR, considering Mystra is dead? He's at best borderline nuts, at worst he's completely off the reservation, he can't use his magic (without becoming a danger to himself and those around him), and he's no longer a Chosen due to Mystra's death. Unless he exists to be the bridge to resurrect Mystra, his only real role is of some type of historian like scholar, assuming he is sane enough to function in such a role.
I think there is, but I can't remember the name off the top of my head. Of course, I'm not sure why someone would want to forcefully resurrect Elminster and **** him off. :P Well, I guess if they had a score to settle... I mean, I could certainly see people making the attempt but they'd have to find the body first. If Elminster made the choice to die, I'm pretty sure he'd be cremated and have his ashes scattered far and wide to ensure that he can't be animated via necromancy or anything like that.
As a result, the only people who are going to be able to resurrect Elminster are going to be those who'd wish him harm to start with... which is somewhat counter productive. Resurrect Elminster to do... what? Torture him? Kill him again? Enslave him? You'd have to be pretty stupid. :P
sfdragon-
Ed has also said in the past (pre-4E), that he was intentionally moving Elminster closer and closer to insanity. Which is why it wasn't a real shock (at least to me) that he became even more insane in 4E FR. I think it'd be odd for Ed to suddenly reverse course for the character. At best I think Elminster will simply stabilize and maintain his current condition, and at worst he's simply going to continue to get worse.
Insanity for powerful wizards, especially those who have lived for centuries, is pretty much a hallmark for Ed's powerful wizard characters. He has stated he wants to show the reader what happens to individuals who are basically godlike in their power, yet still mortal... All that power they possess comes at a steep price.
LK-
I think there is, but I can't remember the name off the top of my head.
-Okay, at least, between the two of us, we've confirmed that something in that vein does indeed exist.
Of course, I'm not sure why someone would want to forcefully resurrect Elminster and **** him off. :P Well, I guess if they had a score to settle... I mean, I could certainly see people making the attempt but they'd have to find the body first. If Elminster made the choice to die, I'm pretty sure he'd be cremated and have his ashes scattered far and wide to ensure that he can't be animated via necromancy or anything like that.
As a result, the only people who are going to be able to resurrect Elminster are going to be those who'd wish him harm to start with... which is somewhat counter productive. Resurrect Elminster to do... what? Torture him? Kill him again? Enslave him? You'd have to be pretty stupid. :P
-The same reason why a lay worshiper of Torm would want to bring the deity back to life, without thinking about the reasons why Torm was "killed" to begin with: They try to summon his spirit back, and it doesn't work. What does that mean? Not that he simply does not want to come back to life, but that, in the afterlife, something is preventing Elminster from returning! I mean, why wouldn't Elminster want to come back to life? He's Elminster! Help Elminster "free himself" from whatever is keeping him in the afterlife, and suddenly, bam, you're a hero. Until the end of days, people will remember XYZ, the people who saved Faerûn by freeing Elminster.
I think it will be interesting to see what is done with Elminster in 4E. From how he has been described, he seems to be nudging close to Halaster insanity territory. Of course, we also know (although I don't think it was confirmed in the FRCG, and it could be retconned by now) that Elminster had trouble using his magic. It had something to do with voices in his head, and losing control of himself.
Lord Karsus-
Anyone who attempted to do that would be idiots. :P I mean, clearly, using such a ritual / spell / whatever to pull someone from the afterlife against their will should be considered evil. It would almost be on par with destroying someone's soul, and perhaps something equivalent to spiritual ****. (You're forcing a spirit into acting against their will.)
Sure, you could try and feign ignorance of what you did... If I was the DM, I'd even let it happen. It would be horrific to the players. Elminster would return, and either be completely PO'ed at the PC's (and thus hate their guts) or completely bat sh*t crazy. If he's nuts then it'd fall to the PC's to actually hunt him down and stop him (by killing him most likely). Either way, I would make actually achieving his resurrection difficult, likely through some type of ritual, and make certain that word gets out about what the PC's are attempting. This would bring all Elminster's enemies down on the PC's heads, in addition to anyone who would oppose such an action to begin with.
So in the end, as a DM, I'd say go ahead. Make my job easy. :P
Some people just need to learn the hardway.
------
As a side note, with Mystra's divine realm gone... where would Elminster's soul go if he died? I wonder if he's picked a new patron deity. My vote is for his soul to go to the Realm of Sharess. :P At least his afterlife would be rather... err... blissful.
Anyone who attempted to do that would be idiots. :P I mean, clearly, using such a ritual / spell / whatever to pull someone from the afterlife against their will should be considered evil. It would almost be on par with destroying someone's soul, and perhaps something equivalent to spiritual ****. (You're forcing a spirit into acting against their will.)
Sure, you could try and feign ignorance of what you did...
-And, if they truly believed the above, that some malevolent force was forcibly holding his spirit in the afterlife against his own will, and that they were doing the right thing, by doing anything and everything in their power to free it from that theoretical malevolent force?
As a side note, with Mystra's divine realm gone... where would Elminster's soul go if he died? I wonder if he's picked a new patron deity. My vote is for his soul to go to the Realm of Sharess. :P At least his afterlife would be rather... err... blissful.
-Given that this is Elminster we are talking about, I am certain that one of Mystra's allies (presumably, one of the deities also involved with the Harpers) would take his spirit when he arrived in the Fugue. Oghma would probably be interested in Elminster, given all of the knowledge his thick head contains/contained.
-And, if they truly believed the above, that some malevolent force was forcibly holding his spirit in the afterlife against his own will, and that they were doing the right thing, by doing anything and everything in their power to free it from that theoretical malevolent force?
I'd still most likely proceed as I outlined above. I'm assuming, of course, that they make no attempt to find out the truth and simply operate off a base assumption. Asking most clerics with the ability to raise the dead should at least make it obvious to them that the possibility exists that Elminster does not want to return to life. Considering that in order to attempt to resurrect him they'd need to find such a cleric... it should be in the forefront of their minds.
Thus, they'd have two options. They can refuse to believe what they've learned from the cleric, and then attempt to identify the malevolent force, or they could attempt to commune with the spirit of Elminster. Communing with the spirit would give them the answer that they seek.
Now, if the players continue to believe that he is being held against his will, without any evidence, either because their search turns up nothing or they simply jump to that conclusion... Then things would likely play out similar to how I outlined above. Elminster would come back insane, and cause all sorts of trouble, forcing the players to put him down like a rabid dog. Meanwhile, Elminster's enemies will likely have gotten wind of the plan (or soon will thanks to his resurrection) and then turn their sites onto the PC's.
Additionally, others who'd want to gain access to Elminster's knowledge would attempt to hunt him as well, believing they could capture him in his vulnerable state.
Really, sometimes people just need to learn the hard way, and I am more than happy to dish out consequences for stupid actions. :P
-Given that this is Elminster we are talking about, I am certain that one of Mystra's allies (presumably, one of the deities also involved with the Harpers) would take his spirit when he arrived in the Fugue. Oghma would probably be interested in Elminster, given all of the knowledge his thick head contains/contained.
I agree, but really, does Elminster really WANT to spend his afterlife in Oghma's divine realm? Pfft.
He'd have a list of choices, but of the two...
1. He can go with Oghma and spend his afterlife as a scholar, among books, scrolls and ancient texts. He'll transcribe all of his knowledge to Oghma's vast library of knowledge.
2. He can go with Sharess and spend his afterlife participating in massive orgies and drunken revels. He can drink as much as he wants with no negative consequences, no hang overs or sickness, dance in the naked congo line, eat whatever he wants (and as much as he wants) without ever becoming fat, and have 40 beautiful virgins (each with the experience of a Las Vegas wh*re) on demand, for all eternity.
Seems like an easy choice there. Tell Oghma to stuff his books where the sun don't shine, he's spent most of his life hunched over books, he wants some "El time." :P
BTW I still believe El's insanity is just a cover for the power he has. I just find it so hard to believe that the most powerful deity of the pantheon didn't have a contingency plan in place. It's ludricous.
I mean, look at it from this prospective: Mystra 3.0 was a goddess for what? About two decades or so, something like that? She was up against Shar, a deity who has existed for thousands of years at the very least. A deity who has outlived her two previous predecessors, and a deity who is highly intelligent and her equal in power. Plus, she was working with multiple other deities to take her down - so it wasn't even a fair fight.
Sometimes, the bad guys really do win. ;)
I think the reason it is hard to believe Mystra is dead is that she was over hyped, and her place in the setting was blown out of proportion. That's something bound to happen to any deity that gets lots of novels based around them and their followers. It's happening to Shar now.
) to prevent her from becoming to powerful as decreed by AO. Besides since Mystra was the weave herself wouldn't that make her age limitless since the weave is timeless? TBPH it didn't affect me that Mystra died than it did the rule change. I would've assumed thatt Cyric would have ascended to the god of magic since he killed Mystra(I.e he took Leira(sp) domain/portfolio over deception after killing her.)
Hmmmmmmm
you know, Cyric is insane right? The mages went insane right? Coincendence? IDK sounds to convienient that they both happened at similar times. I think one should be prepared when Cyiric finally reveals to the world that he has been Mystra all along. I mean look at the happenings:1: Cyric gets imprisoned therefore unable to maintain the weave but is the reason that Shar can not access it. But the ascension to the god of magic is unknown to both.
2. Since Cyric is insane his personality shapes the weave into his personality(sub-conciously) and as such mages casting the spells draw upon the "Insanity Weave" turning most of them insane.
3. The "insanity weave" becomes stablized but warped as Cyric becomes accustomed to his prison and begins calculating his escape his mind becomes less insane but still warped.
4. El realized this as Mystra informed him as she passed thus remaining the only true sane mage in the realms. He refuses to cast spells for fear his knowledge will become known to the true god of magic and is afraid of what might happend when Cyric becomes full aware of his status. This is also why he cannot die as his soul would become an open book.
Meldread, So you're saying all they did was to make Shar the god flavor of the week?
I think the reason it is hard to believe Mystra is dead is that she was over hyped, and her place in the setting was blown out of proportion. That's something bound to happen to any deity that gets lots of novels based around them and their followers. It's happening to Shar now.
-Thank you.
Getting back to the main topic, I hope we learn something soon about Storm Silverhand. It'd probably be better if she disappeared sometime during the 100-year gap, fulfilling some noble quest related to Mystra.
-It's a lot better than simply disappearing into ambiguity forever more. Even if it's something stupid, contrived, rushed together, or whatever else, I'd rather have some closure than nothing at all. And, I don't even like the character! I feel for people who did.
I'm curious as to her fate, but it's been a year now, and I'm not sure if we're any closer to finding out how Storm's doing.
-Realistically, we're not. But, with the drip of Forgotten Realms support that is online DRAGON and novels right now, a few things have been written. Being as that there's nothing particularly relevant to Storm's fate right now, with that information already released, that makes fewer things waiting on the theoretical line in front of whatever source reveals something about her.
*mad cackle*
*poke dead unicorn with a stick*
I sure hope she's dead. Anything else would be... disappointing.
*mad cackle*
*poke dead unicorn with a stick*
It's a wonder your Shadovar kin haven't asked you to rejoin their reborn empire.
No, seriously, you'd make a lot of new friends with this attitude in Shade.:D
I sure hope she's dead. Anything else would be... disappointing.
How so?
How so?
I really dislike the character. I dont care much for any of the Seven Sisters but Storm has always been my least favourite among them.
In my realms (which is 4E 1479 DR), the Sisters are all well, though not necessarily alive. With the dawn of 4E, I reworked the Exarch and Chosen concepts. A Chosen is a specially blessed individual who represents a specific portfolio of his/her deity (I kept the multiple portfolios idea; don't much care for a single Sphere). So a deity can never have more Chosen than he/she does portfolios, and only one portfolio can be held by each Chosen. An Exarch is like the Chosen/Seraphs of old (because I still use the Greater>Intermediate>Lesser>Demipower rankings). An Exarch is a supreme blessed individual, who represents ALL the portfolios of a deity; also, whereas Exarchs are guaranteed a share of their patron's divine essence, Chosen won't necessarily receive a portion of their god's spark.
Qilue is deceased, but in a "resting in paradise" kind of dead, not "soul obliteration" dead. I had Eilistraee sacrifice herself; Selvetarm (who was redeemed with her sacrifice) is now the Chaotic Neutral (I kept the old alignment system too) god of dark elves, and dwells in Arvandor as a member of the Seldarine with Qilue, who is his Exarch; it's awkward because she still has trouble accepting Selvetarm, who used to be her sworn enemy. The Simbul is the Exarch of Azuth and dwells in Dweomerheart (in my game, Azuth succeeded Mystra as the god of magic and saved Dweomerheart, though the Weave no longer exists). Storm still lives on her farm, happy as can be. Dove wanders the Dalelands/Cormyr area; she became unstable for a few years after Florin's death, but she pulled herself together and has been protecting the innocent (and her descendants). Laeral lives in Rhymanthiin as the city's Archmage. Alustriel no longer rules Silverymoon, but has retired and serves as an advisor. Sylune is still bound to Shadowdale and helps (and spooks) anyone who needs her aid or advice. These last five are all Chosen of Azuth (who decided not to challenge Selvetarm's claim of Qilue or call Khelben from his rest in Arvandor).
How so?
-I agree with Aumvor, in that anything else would be disappointing*, but not because of why he wants her to arrive at that end, but because the character deserves a 'fitting' end*. Such a character (not only in regards to her general importance in the setting, but to fans of the setting, many of whom list her among their favorite characters) deserves to have a clearly defined fate. To me, having a shrouded, mysterious, undecided end is among the worst things that can happen. It's very much like families who, sadly, have relatives missing as POWs. A next door neighbor I used to have had a son who was shot down in Vietnam, and never returned. His death was never confirmed. In a way, that's worse than death (to the perspective of the family) because there is no closure.
* Barring the concept that she's still alive and doing something 'incognito'. If that's the case, I have no problem with that scenario.
Such a character (not only in regards to her general importance in the setting, but to fans of the setting, many of whom list her among their favorite characters) deserves to have a clearly defined fate. To me, having a shrouded, mysterious, undecided end is among the worst things that can happen.
Not to go off-topic, but if I might ask, what then do you think of how they handled Alusair? It seems like many of her fans prefer she ride off into the sunset, so to speak, rather than, say, fall in some battle with Sembians.
I'm not really a fan of Alusair.
You've got a friend in me.:D
I don't like open-ended contemporary mysteries with certain characters. That is, Alusair is a character who "we knew", as opposed to an NPC who was made out in the setting to have disappeared (like Ulair the Silent, for example), and it's annoying to not have the 'total equation' balance out: We know her early life, and midlife, but not her later life.
I agree with you. And so this whole post isn't off-topic, I must say I'd rather have been informed about the Seven Sisters (in this case Storm and Dove) than Alusair. The thing I don't like is that Alusair is mentioned, but she's mentioned as fading off into the background, to wherever she felt her heart call her (or some such drivel). Not much help. Yet for Storm and Dove, they've been placed in the NDA bubble; the designers seem to have something in mind, but for some reason which hasn't been made apparent, it's not prudent for them to spill the beans just yet. It's like they basically flopped Alusair's fate onto the table and said "Here ya go", and didn't really give us much. Yet they won't ante up characters many would say are (were, perhaps) more important to the setting. I must say, at this point, even a simple "Alive or dead" would be refreshing (yet that just leads to more questions; ah the beautiful thorns of the NDA). Personally, Dove and Storm are still alive in my own realms, so I know ultimately it doesn't matter... but my damn curiousity is taking hold again
And at the time I write this, the Lords (Karsus and myself) have made the last posts in 19 out of the 24 topics on this front page (excluding the sticky).
I must say, at this point, even a simple "Alive or dead" would be refreshing (yet that just leads to more questions; ah the beautiful thorns of the NDA).
-Sure, it leads to some questions- mainly, what happened- but, at least we know they're either alive, or dead. That much is nice. It's better than "dance around the issue, don't say anything, make 'em squeal".
Gomez
Aye. Seen from the preview, she is a bit sad... though not too bad off.
Gomez
So she's alive?!
ED said he had plans for EL's mind and body when I asked if there was plans to make him sane again, but alas, its NDAs abound.
Elminister=Ao....true story.
Aye. Seen from the preview, she is a bit sad... though not too bad off.
Gomez
So she's alive?!
She wasn't dead.;)
Alusair was the ghost in the prologue...
Elminister=Volo....true story.
it for you.
So she's alive?!
Yes, at the start of the book, at least.
What the preview gives us is:
Show
The Spellplague twisted her so she now has the eternal pretty body of a 19 year old, but she has lost all of her magic save the ability to cast illusions. More devastating for her, I believe, is that she lost her singing voice. She is the Bard of Shadowdale no more. Quite cruel (still... could have been worse).
The Spellplague twisted her so she now has the eternal pretty body of a 19 year old, but she has lost all of her magic save the ability to cast illusions. More devastating for her, I believe, is that she lost her singing voice. She is the Bard of Shadowdale no more. Quite cruel (still... could have been worse).
Note that we still do not know the fate of Dove.
I don't even want to think about what happened to my favorite Sister. If the Simbul went bonkers and Storm
Show
lost her singing voice and magical repertoire
So she's alive?!
Yes, at the start of the book, at least.
What the preview gives us is:Show
The Spellplague twisted her so she now has the eternal pretty body of a 19 year old, but she has lost all of her magic save the ability to cast illusions. More devastating for her, I believe, is that she lost her singing voice. She is the Bard of Shadowdale no more. Quite cruel (still... could have been worse).
Not the designers, Ed Greenwood...;)
You know as well as I do that Greenwood would not choose to do this to one of his characters. He might do a lot of things to one of the Zhent leaders, but not this for one of the Seven. The main objectives of the plot are always directed by the "design" team. Although at this point, they're less of a design team IMO and more of a wrecking crew. At best, Greenwood can soften the blow, but I'm not sure it makes a difference anymore.
I guess with Mystra getting herself killed, her remaining Chosen get to survive unscathed.
I guess with Mystra getting herself killed, her remaining Chosen get to survive unscathed.
Name one that that we know about who was unscathed?
Syluné, Laeral, and Alustriel are dead and gone, Storm and the Simbul have been maliciously damaged, and Qilué had her soul irrevocably destroyed. Dove's chances don't look to good, given the track record. And for those who have died, since their goddess is dead and the "rules" suggest it, I imagine the design team has placed them in the wall of the faithless. Stomp and spit on those old Realms, designers, stomp stomp stomp! Make it as miserable and damaged as possible, because "that's what people wanted."
I guess with Mystra getting herself killed, her remaining Chosen get to survive unscathed.
Name one that that we know about who was unscathed?
Syluné, Laeral, and Alustriel are dead and gone, Storm and the Simbul have been maliciously damaged, and Qilué had her soul irrevocably destroyed. Dove's chances don't look to good, given the track record. And for those who have died, since their goddess is dead and the "rules" suggest it, I imagine the design team has placed them in the wall of the faithless. Stomp and spit on those old Realms, designers, stomp stomp stomp! Make it as miserable and damaged as possible, because "that's what people wanted."
I pointed this out before....but it is odd on how every single strong female character in the old Realms have not only been destroyed but usualy mutaliated. This is why I really can't stomach the new Realms. It reads like misogynist crap. Women are not just simply killed...they usualy have to be slowly tortured to death(if they lucky).
My point was, with Mystra getting killed was/is a tragedy. So her Chosen will also have tragic things happen to them. What should we have expected them to go in to 4E in all their power and glory?
I view it as interesting character development. They went from the pinacle of power to having to steal to survive. People now think they are fakes/pretenders using El's name to bluff their way out of jams.
I am glad WotC is letting Ed write it.
All the bashing the Design Team is kinda off topic, and not really needed here on these forums anymore. Sorry you feel the need to threadcrap about them, but we have been there done that around here enough already.
I don't like most of what was done to the Realms, give it 5 years and it will get changed yet again.
John what about the strong females that are in the 4E FRCG?
My point was, with Mystra getting killed was/is a tragedy. So her Chosen will also have tragic things happen to them. What should we have expected them to go in to 4E in all their power and glory?
I view it as interesting character development. They went from the pinacle of power to having to steal to survive. People now think they are fakes/pretenders using El's name to bluff their way out of jams.
I am glad WotC is letting Ed write it.
All the bashing the Design Team is kinda off topic, and not really needed here on these forums anymore. Sorry you feel the need to threadcrap about them, but we have been there done that around here enough already.
I don't like most of what was done to the Realms, give it 5 years and it will get changed yet again.
John what about the strong females that are in the 4E FRCG?
Sure it is probably what would happen with Mystra's death (yet another strong female character they( the design team) couldn't handle. Though you know how about a heroic death? Or even just a freakin happy ending for a female character. All the powerful females character recieve crappy endings for the most part.
Oh you are right it could be interesting character development...you know them actualy becoming powerful again after the tragedy...but that does not happen. They are left as mockeries of their former selves. Also so how do you see Quile character developing?
Also you can call this threadcrapping...I am merely giving my opinion. Which is pretty much summed up byu the Design Team of the FR has to go. They did a terrible job. This is one of the places to let it be known.
Also so what are the strong female characters presented in the non-novl souces?
John I wasn't calling you out for "threadcrapping".
Bash the work, just don't bash those doing the work.
We will sit here and argue in circles, and I have better things to done than argue about a fictional place.;)
IIRC Alustrial(sp) died quite peacefully in her sleep.
John I wasn't calling you out for "threadcrapping".
Bash the work, just don't bash those doing the work.
We will sit here and argue in circles, and I have better things to done than argue about a fictional place.;)
Like work on your grammar ;) It should be 'I have better things to do...' not 'better thing to done'.
But argueing in circle needs is fun.
Also about bashing the work vs bashing the who did the work...I agree if it is one or even a few incidents. Those are areas that constructive critism can help in. But at some point when I constantly see the same mistakers and bad writting from the same people I do have to question their competency in that field.
But you are right we have better things to do than argue about a fictional setting....but again...that is fun ;)
IIRC Alustrial(sp) died quite peacefully in her sleep.
Actually, she was slain by a rampaging horde of Galeb Duhr. They absorbed her powers and now rule Silverymoon from the shadows. It'll be featured in EMD, in a flashback.
Also so what are the strong female characters presented in the non-novl souces?
The FRCG has replaced a lot of strong women with men. There are several women (re)introduced, such as Empress Ususi from High Imaskar or Shadowdale's Lady Mayor Adee Ulphor, but I agree there could have been more.
I did/do introduce strong women (not all of them nice) in the LFR adventures in my care. Even the 'damsels in distress' are pretty tough if they are not, you know, distressed (you would be in poor shape too if you had glass growing out of your skin).
Gomez,
trying to improve the Realms one encounter at a time.
The current Blackstaff is female.
But those are novel characters so they don't matter anyway, right?
Sure their not the Chosen, but I always thought the Chosen were overrated and over exposed anyway.
I guess that makes me less of a fan of the setting then.
;)
Am I right in assuming that the sample that is being referred to is the one accompanying Circle of Skulls?
If so I shall endeavour to read the material in question before saying anything further about this change... to yet another of the Chosen... who is quite possibly my favourite of the Seven.
...yeah.
Good to see you around Illuvrien.
Aye. Seen from the preview, she is a bit sad... though not too bad off.
Gomez
Are you referring to a preview chapter of Elminster Must Die? If so, I can't find it. The sample chapter of Circle of Skulls doesn't appear to have anything related to the seven sisters in it.
Correct. It's the Prologue and Chapters 1 and 2.
Excellent, thanks. I will have to see if I can't pick up a copy from somewhere... although I have to admit to having some feelings of creeping dread, considering what has already been said about the Bard.
Good to see you around Illuvrien.
Nice to see you again sir. I may well be around a bit more, now that I have passed my doctoral viva and only have my thesis corrections to do. On the other hand, I am finding it a little more difficult to raise the old fire of my obsession for the Realms these days... so we will just have to see ;). I do hope that you have been well in my absence though!
I managed to get through the Prologue and about half of the first chapter in that rather hasty reading. I did have to abandon it because a) I didn't have a lot of time to get where I had to go next... and b) because the bile rising in my throat actually physically prevented me from reading, I was skipping whole passages in self defence.
Maybe the last half of the first chapter, and the second chapter held some ray of hope (please!) but at the moment... all I can really think is that it is a pretty diabolical thing to have happened to some of my favourite characters. Poor dear (Ethena A)Storm(a) and El, not good at all. It shows the depth of feeling that the passges evoked that I was even feeling sorry for Alassra.... and I never really liked her, as she seemed to be most of what the detractors hated about the Chosen.
Gnah and more gnah!
As to the rest... yet another reason I avoid most novels.
You didn't get to the part where El, Storm, and The Simbul were about to really ****-up some Cormyran War Wizards.
Indeed, I did not.
Any suggestion that they may get the positive reward that they have earned through their long centuries of service to the Lady of Mysteries?
...yeah, I know I am grasping at straws here, but I can't believe that it ends like this.
After reading the Elminster series this year, I really don't think El and the other Chosen has ever gotten anything other than heartbreak and sorrow. I think it comes with being Chosen.
While I appreciate the general concept of "former heroes brought low" and how it can be the basis for gripping fiction, I have to say that this excerpt did not give me any hope that they might regain even a portion of their former status - or even that their pain would end.
There is absolutely a place for dark, horrible tragedy. Romeo and Juliet, for example, is incredibly tragic but yet much-loved because it makes us explore our own feelings about those who cannot win against the world; it speaks to us in a different way. But I'm not sure that the Realms is the best place for tragedy. The best that I can explain... I feel like I've been tricked, in much the same way as a mean older teenager might read their kid sister Lord of the Rings but then change it so that everyone dies horribly or gets disfigured in the end.
Epic fantasy in the Realms was always about heroics, and making sacrifices for the good to survive. Sure it may have been over the top and melodramatic in some cases, but that's epic heroic fiction. But if the story ends for a true hero where they're disfigured, murdered or killed without meaning, it makes the hero's journey meaningless. That's why this feels like I've been cheated, tricked. Heroes are supposed to come to good ends, or make a noble sacrifice. This is just... it's awful. There's no redeeming message, no hope for a better outcome. And it even makes me angry that I bought all of the original books in the first place. That's why I come down hard on the current designers, because they didn't keep the unwritten contract between the author and their readers: they've treated our much-loved heroes like dirt.
Well, I made the plunge and bought Circle of Skulls, mainly to read the excerpt of Elminster Must Die that you all have been talking about.
While I appreciate the general concept of "former heroes brought low" and how it can be the basis for gripping fiction, I have to say that this excerpt did not give me any hope that they might regain even a portion of their former status - or even that their pain would end.
There is absolutely a place for dark, horrible tragedy. Romeo and Juliet, for example, is incredibly tragic but yet much-loved because it makes us explore our own feelings about those who cannot win against the world; it speaks to us in a different way. But I'm not sure that the Realms is the best place for tragedy. The best that I can explain... I feel like I've been tricked, in much the same way as a mean older teenager might read their kid sister Lord of the Rings but then change it so that everyone dies horribly or gets disfigured in the end.
Epic fantasy in the Realms was always about heroics, and making sacrifices for the good to survive. Sure it may have been over the top and melodramatic in some cases, but that's epic heroic fiction. But if the story ends for a true hero where they're disfigured, murdered or killed without meaning, it makes the hero's journey meaningless. That's why this feels like I've been cheated, tricked. Heroes are supposed to come to good ends, or make a noble sacrifice. This is just... it's awful. There's no redeeming message, no hope for a better outcome. And it even makes me angry that I bought all of the original books in the first place. That's why I come down hard on the current designers, because they didn't keep the unwritten contract between the author and their readers: they've treated our much-loved heroes like dirt.
You got all that from just the excerpt!?
I will pick up El Must Die and I will almost certainly enjoy it, because I usually enjoy most, if not all, of Ed's books. Will I be comfortable about the direction the story takes some of my avourite characters? Not from this excerpt I won't be.
As you say, final judgements at this time are premature... discussion about the ends that might be found is not though.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha, this is priceless!
How so? And for why?