18DELTA
-Qilue Veladorn, she died in 1378 DR, when Eilistraee was using her as an avatar, and sacrificed herself.
-Sylûne, we know that she was laid to rest finally when the Zhentarim invaded Shadowdale in 1374 DR.
-Alustriel, all we know is that sometime between 1375 DR and 1479 DR, she passed away.
-The Simbul, we know she faked her death, and is living with Elminster in Shadowdale, under a fake alias and all of that.
-Qilue Veladorn, she died in 1378 DR, when Eilistraee was using her as an avatar, and sacrificed herself.
-Sylûne, we know that she was laid to rest finally when the Zhentarim invaded Shadowdale in 1374 DR.
-Alustriel, all we know is that sometime between 1375 DR and 1479 DR, she passed away.
Which answers nothing, of course. ;)
-They fall under the category of 'the other Seven Sisters', don't they?
I took the "other Seven Sisters" to be the two others he mentioned in stated question.
If I asked why my Domino's pizza didn't "come with the other toppings--where's the pepperoni and green olives?" Would you answer, "The anchovies went bad and Bart the delivery guy pick off the sausage."
So they never published any info on the others. OK, thats what I was curious about. Thanks.
Check out what the Simbul said here. It may help a bit: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1077798
-Storm and Laereal were probably two of the most popular, so expect an article on online DRAGON or the DDI someday about their fates. Maybe a novel will let some information slip.
I don't know... I had a serious soft spot for Dove too.... DAMN YOU FLORIN!
*ahem* :embarrass
I actually had a soft spot for all of them.
Maybe we could have a "Which Sister did you like most (or hate least in the case of some people)" poll?
It might prod the designers into giving us some of the information for that one ;).
Maybe we could have a "Which Sister did you like most (or hate least in the case of some people)" poll?
-Start a thread, then.
-Start a thread, then.
I'm scared. The big kids might hurt me!
[I'll do it in the morning, 2:26am isn't the time to be attempting to form my first cogent OP]
I'm scared. The big kids might hurt me!
-I'll protect you.
You'd get, "Next month in DDi!"
So in the worst case we might pull forward that timeline slightly. I still see worth in the idea.
-I'll protect you.
Now that would be impressive considering you at at least 3500 miles away.
I'll just "walk softly and carry a big badger." :D
...
What do you mean, that isn't the right saying?
Now that would be impressive considering you at at least 3500 miles away.
-It's a long story...Let's just say that LK has contacts all over the world, including England.
So in the worst case we might pull forward that timeline slightly. I still see worth in the idea.
Perhaps. But I don't see the Seven Sisters--any of them--being prominent focal points for some time to come.
-It's a long story...Let's just say that LK has contacts all over the world, including England.
There's a man who leads a life of danger
To everyone he meets he stays a stranger
With every move he makes another chance he takes
Odds are he won't live to see tomorrow
Secret agent man, secret agent man
They've given you a number and taken away your name
-It's a long story...Let's just say that LK has contacts all over the world, including England.
So you would be the one who is in contact with subversive elephants?
...
Um, elements?
Perhaps. But I don't see the Seven Sisters--any of them--being prominent focal points for some time to come.
I would be happy to find out about them having a mortal status that allows them to be a point of interest ever from now on.
So you would be the one who is in contact with subversive elephants?
He is most definitely the man. Though I would question your motives for wanting the elephants, you sick...
I would be happy to find out about them having a mortal status that allows them to be a point of interest ever from now on.
I would love to have all the facts on these chicks--alive, dead, or doing lap dances for El'. My take on this though, is that they are going to keep their focal point at the current time creating and expanding on material for the new setting and will do their best to leave the old "3e problems" out of the mix for a while.
Yes, if we keep poking they will probably respond, but not until they see how the new Realms fare without such things.
He is most definitely the man. Though I would question your motives for wanting the elephants, you sick...
-Especially submissive elephants...
-Especially submissive elephants...
Actually, it was "subversive" elephants. Which means he wants to get manhandled and raped by one--or more--of them.
Disgusting, I know.
Does anyone know what happened to Storm, Dove and Laeral? I search through the FRCG and I couldn't find any word of their fates.
Storm Silverhand is mentioned in the Dalelands sections as having been one of the protectors of old who is now absent. "Absent" carries enough ambiguity to mean anything the DM wishes it to mean, which is enough for me to work with, or cling to in hopes of hearing of her again.
Laeral is mentioned in past tense as one of the archmages who helped cleanse the High Moor and in the process restore the city of Rhymanthiin. At the end of the novel Blackstaff that is where she was left to mourn the loss of Khelben, and where she likely intended to raise their unborn twins. According to the description of the High Moor in the FRCG (in Chapter 1) the city still exists, is still hidden, and those with malice in their heart cannot find it. Thus, it is possible that she and/or her descendants may still dwell there, and are safe from all external harm...but who can say for certain? If we are likely to learn anything more I would wager it will be in the forthcoming Blackstaff Tower novel, or perhaps any possibly DDI article we can beg out of Steven Schend.
Dove is not mentioned in either past or present tense insofar as I can discern. Her son Azalar dwells in Shadowdale however, having since retired his position as it's Lord.
Check out what the Simbul said here. It may help a bit: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1077798
Actually that post of mine was in response to questions regarding the whereabouts of powerful archmages of the Realms circa 1375DR, during the events of the Twilight War. Thus it has little bearing on the current activities or well being of these personages.
my guess Its storm
-Sylûne, we know that she was laid to rest finally when the Zhentarim invaded Shadowdale in 1374 DR.
Excuse-me but I did not understand the meaning of what is written in italic.
Thanks a lot.
Excuse-me but I did not understand the meaning of what is written in italic.
Thanks a lot.
Put simply. Sylune used to be dead and now she is deader.
She was a spectral harpist, now she is just gone.
*wanders off to go set fire to some Zhents*
[Continued : Actually, you know what? I don't want to see a DDI Article on the Fate of the Seven.
If they are to die, to live or even to just slip into the woods and never be heard from again then I would like to see Ed handle it in a new book just for them:
Silverfall 2: The Fate of the Seven.
For one primary reason. I would prefer to not leave the description of their demise in the hands of the people who thought they were more trouble than they were worth as characters.]
-The Simbul, we know she faked her death, and is living with Elminster in Shadowdale, under a fake alias and all of that.
Actually, we only know she lives in the Dalelands. We don't know where.
I personally would place her anywhere but Shadowdale.
Excuse-me but I did not understand the meaning of what is written in italic.
Thanks a lot.
Put simply. Sylune used to be dead and now she is deader.
She was a spectral harpist, now she is just gone.
-Right.
If they are to die, to live or even to just slip into the woods and never be heard from again then I would like to see Ed handle it in a new book just for them:
Silverfall 2: The Fate of the Seven.
For one primary reason. I would prefer to not leave the description of their demise in the hands of the people who thought they were more trouble than they were worth as characters.]
-That'd be nice, but it'd be sad to read.
Actually, we only know she lives in the Dalelands. We don't know where.
I personally would place her anywhere but Shadowdale.
-That she's in the Dalelands, tending Elminster, why would they be anywhere but Shadoedale?
-That'd be nice, but it'd be sad to read.
Sad certainly... but does your "nice" reflect that it would better than just a discontinuity and possibly more fitting than "before Alustriel passed away"?
Sad certainly... but does your "nice" reflect that it would better than just a discontinuity and possibly more fitting than "before Alustriel passed away"?
-Yes, yes it does.
Put simply. Sylune used to be dead and now she is deader.
She was a spectral harpist, now she is just gone.
*wanders off to go set fire to some Zhents*
Thanks for helping me understand that point.
Actually that post of mine was in response to questions regarding the whereabouts of powerful archmages of the Realms circa 1375DR, during the events of the Twilight War. Thus it has little bearing on the current activities or well being of these personages.
Which is why I said it “may help a bit.” Coming from nothing to something can go a long way.
Sweet Bejebuz—give a woman props and I get this. Fine! I’ll never refer to you again as a source of intelligence and wisdom. You’ll just be the chick that knew some things back in the day that aren’t applicable now!
The fact that the Simbul is allive was actually the reason for me to get the FRCG so I hope we get more.
I'm going to speculate here, and say that I think some or perhaps all of the Seven Chosen (...and others) may no longer exist in physical form..but live still on in consciousness. Ed recently offered up a nugget of insider information on The Mage of Shadowdale, and stated that Elminsters head is "a very crowded place" at present. Which leads me to believe that the Old Sage's mind may very well be home to more than just himself. The placement of that response within the thread gives me the impression, that some of the Realms important folk(s) may be retruning in times to come...
-I've done musing on this fact, and I find it doubtful. If the Seven Sisters were the "voices" within Elminster, why would he be so fearful of using magic and "unleashing" them?
-Right.
-That'd be nice, but it'd be sad to read.
+1 I'd pay good money for that novel. Not because of some stupid fanboish wet dream about the seven sisters dieing, but I genuinely like novels where the heros pay the ultimate price. Especially when it is a haunting and tragic end.
+1 I'd pay good money for that novel. Not because of some stupid fanboish wet dream about the seven sisters dieing, but I genuinely like novels where the heros pay the ultimate price. Especially when it is a haunting and tragic end.
-Blackstaff. It can be done!
I'm going to speculate here, and say that I think some or perhaps all of the Seven Chosen (...and others) may no longer exist in physical form..but live still on in consciousness. Ed recently offered up a nugget of insider information on The Mage of Shadowdale, and stated that Elminsters head is "a very crowded place" at present. Which leads me to believe that the Old Sage's mind may very well be home to more than just himself. The placement of that response within the thread gives me the impression, that some of the Realms important folk(s) may be retruning in times to come...
This has been my theory since Day 1--minus the Simbul and the other sisters that have been snuffed. He's absorbed their essences and is having a hard time dealing with it.
Unfortunately, the FRC didn't elaborate--or help--on this point.
-I've done musing on this fact, and I find it doubtful. If the Seven Sisters were the "voices" within Elminster, why would he be so fearful of using magic and "unleashing" them?
Because their very essence is magic and they are now a part of him. Every time he casts a spell, he has each Chosen riding it. It's like trying to light a firecracker, but setting off an A-bomb.
Because their very essence is magic and they are now a part of him. Every time he casts a spell, he has each Chosen riding it. It's like trying to light a firecracker, but setting off an A-bomb.
-An interesting way of looking at it.
Like most of the Canon Sues & Stus, my bet is the Seven Suesters (scroll down to "Elminster" under "Literature") will all be back before you can say "5th Edition".
-Of course, Ed Greenwood has stated numerous times that he does not consider Elminster to be a reflection of himself in the Forgotten Realms, and would have rather not written so much novel material featuring Elminster, and Elminster, the Seven Sisters, and various others are commonly on the raw end of the victory/defeat spectrum...Yeah...
-Of course, Ed Greenwood has stated numerous times that he does not consider Elminster to be a reflection of himself in the Forgotten Realms, and would have rather not written so much novel material featuring Elminster, and Elminster, the Seven Sisters, and various others are commonly on the raw end of the victory/defeat spectrum...Yeah...
Oh, actually I think that what El and the Sisters actually do doesn't matter. This is after all the World of Perception. I also think the previous poster (previous to you, not me) has just disproved her own point. They won't be back because people believe they are Sues/Stus. A source of disappointment for me, really.
Oh, actually I think that what El and the Sisters actually do doesn't matter.
-I know. But, that doesn't change the fact that, when brought up, it is countered with fact to counter it.
-I know. But, that doesn't change the fact that, when brought up, it is countered with fact to counter it.
True true, and I expect that there will be suggestions of fanboi-ism and that Ephipanies of Fondness for the Seven will be thin on the ground indeed.
But then I am feeling rather cynical today.
-Of course, Ed Greenwood has stated numerous times that he does not consider Elminster to be a reflection of himself in the Forgotten Realms, and would have rather not written so much novel material featuring Elminster, and Elminster, the Seven Sisters,
What's said and what's done (written, in books or game products) are two different things.
Especially since, as far as I know, no one forced any D&D author to write novels in any particular way, or create & portray characters in any particular way, or use them more than they wanted..
Anyhow, a "Sue" isn't *just* a "self-insert"; what qualifies as a "Sue" is determined by overall characteristics. And virtually no one who creates a Sue thinks they've created one (unless they do so tongue-in-cheek).
But the point remains: They'll all be back, and almost certainly "badder than ever". So there's no loss to lament - unlike all the realms that had a bridge dropped on them in the new edition.
onew of them is still alive during the year of the ageless one, so which will it be
But the point remains: They'll all be back, and almost certainly "badder than ever". So there's no loss to lament - unlike all the realms that had a bridge dropped on them in the new edition.
Um, you mean apart from Sylune, Alustriel and Qilue, right? Those three we know are dead... two of whom are professionally dead.
The Simbul is alive but diminished... the others? Who knows.
Still, a 43% known reduction in characters that the designers have stated were a problem to the setting is obviously something they will bounce back from... I think that number is going to get larger. Not smaller. So you should be happy.
I shall lament.
Especially since, as far as I know, no one forced any D&D author to write novels in any particular way, or create & portray characters in any particular way, or use them more than they wanted.
-Of course, this is what happens. TSR/WotC director says, "We want you to write a new novel about X, doing Y. We'll pay you $." Author says, "Sounds good. Can I have X do Y?" TSR/WotC director says, "No, we really want Y to happen to X because Z. In the future, because of Z, we want to go in A direction." Author says, "Ah, I see". And continue on.
Anyhow, a "Sue" isn't *just* a "self-insert"; what qualifies as a "Sue" is determined by overall characteristics. And virtually no one who creates a Sue thinks they've created one (unless they do so tongue-in-cheek).
-So, if it's entirely subjective, then there is no such thing as "Sue" characters?
But the point remains: They'll all be back, and almost certainly "badder than ever". So there's no loss to lament - unlike all the realms that had a bridge dropped on them in the new edition.
-This much, I doubt. What would be the point, when readding the so-called "problematic characters" would undo what was done?
-Of course, this is what happens. TSR/WotC director says, "We want you to write a new novel about X, doing Y. We'll pay you $." Author says, "Sounds good.
So you're saying he *did* want to write the novels in question.
Can I have X do Y?" TSR/WotC director says, "No, we really want Y to happen to X because Z. In the future, because of Z, we want to go in A direction." Author says, "Ah, I see". And continue on.
Author could say "Ah, I see, well I guess I'll pass" if he doesn't want to write that.
The "WotC said 'We absolutely must have Elminster in Hell, exactly like this, with no deviations &tc' and Ed said 'I Hear and Obey' rationalization really doesn't apply.
-So, if it's entirely subjective, then there is no such thing as "Sue" characters?
No - obviously. The answer is that obviously the author of "Sue" characters is hardly the best judge of what qualifies or not. And Elminster & the Sisters fit just about every "Sue" trope.
Follow the links.
If your purpose is just to rationalize whatever is said and done in Realmslore, we'll have to agree to disagree on the Suesters & Elminster-the-Uber.
-This much, I doubt. What would be the point, when readding the so-called "problematic characters" would undo what was done?
Again, time will tell: We'll both have to watch and see. IMO, for now, its more easy to believe that what happened in the past can happen again, though, than that the leopards will change their spots, so I'm not wringing my hands in worry that we'll never see their like again, and recommend that those who are stop worrying. My bet is: They'll be back.
So you're saying he *did* want to write the novels in question.
Author could say "Ah, I see, well I guess I'll pass" if he doesn't want to write that.
-And not receive a pay check at the same time.
The "WotC said 'We absolutely must have Elminster in Hell, exactly like this, with no deviations &tc' and Ed said 'I Hear and Obey' rationalization really doesn't apply.
-TSR/WotC designer say, "We want the end result to be X, where the main character has this, this, this, and this happen to him, and where the main character can do this, and this, and this." This is how characters evolve. Elminster began as a Magic 26 who narrated books, and turned into a Chosen of Mystra Wiz 24/Acm 5/Ftr1/Rog2/Cle3.
Again, time will tell: We'll both have to watch and see. IMO, for now, its more easy to believe that what happened in the past can happen again, though, than that the leopards will change their spots, so I'm not wringing my hands in worry that we'll never see their like again, and recommend that those who are stop worrying. My bet is: They'll be back.
-What would be the purpose of bringing said characters back? It'd be counterproductive to the design mantras that the designers are currently holding to. The idea was to eliminate these "problematic" characters, so that the notion that they did everything for everyone would disappear, and those who's dislike of the setting fell on these entities would join the rank and file fans. In inserting them back in, those who I just mentioned would again have a focus for their dislike, and would become alienated from the setting again, negating everything that was done to attract them in the first place. Like you said, sure, we'll have to wait and see, in actuality, but I don't see why these characters would be returned, especially since they're not conducive to their (the designers) goals.
-And not receive a pay check at the same time
I'm sure a NYT best-selling, truly creative writer could write the book(s) they wanted, get them published, and eat just fine.
-TSR/WotC designer say, "We want the end result to be X, where the main character has this, this, this, and this happen to him, and where the main character can do this, and this, and this." This is how characters evolve. Elminster began as a Magic 26 who narrated books, and turned into a Chosen of Mystra Wiz 24/Acm 5/Ftr1/Rog2/Cle3.
I'd like to see the conversation where a TSR/WotC designer forced Ed to change Elminster in this fashion against his will.
My guess is it was really the other way around: Ed wrote various Elminster books having him do this, this, this, and this, and then came up with a 3E Statblock to describe it.
Considering Ed is (or anyhow continues to get product credit for, and I take their word for it) a game designer himself, I'm kinda doubting the theory that someone made him change his signature characters against his will.
And, yeah, I have the old Grey Box myself, and the Dragon Mag (#113 IIRC) wherin Elminster is first statted out too.
-What would be the purpose of bringing said characters back? It'd be counterproductive to the design mantras that the designers are currently holding to.
I agree with you. I just doubt they'll keep to it.
Not that I doubt their intentions. It's just that intentions change, and people naturally drift to familiar, comfortable patterns.
The idea was to eliminate these "problematic" characters, so that the notion that they did everything for everyone would disappear, and those who's dislike of the setting fell on these entities would join the rank and file fans.
Speaking of which, the off-staging of these NPCs is one of the least problem-causing things out there. It's very easy, if one wants to, to have them all re-appear in one's version of the Realms.
So IMO that's another reason not to get too worked up about Storm or {insert favorite eliminated NPC here} being gone - just drop 'em back in, and it's unlikely to affect the utility of future published Realms products for a given campaign.
Map changes, OtoH, and Realm elimination/radcal alteration, is harder to generally retrofit.
In inserting them back in, those who I just mentioned would again have a focus for their dislike, and would become alienated from the setting again, negating everything that was done to attract them in the first place. Like you said, sure, we'll have to wait and see, in actuality, but I don't see why these characters would be returned, especially since they're not conducive to their (the designers) goals.
That was a good, or at least well-intentioned, action on the part of the designers. But they virtually guaranteed "Broken Base" with the drastic Spellplague-wrought changes.
After all, folks can gripe all they want about 3E Elminster or the "Seven Sisters" accessory (actually, I liked Alustriel...but I did find The Simbul to be too much even then, and wasn't keen on the creation of the Silver Marches - IMO it made Alustriel *less* interesting), but they never really affect campaigns. Not the way the Brian-Table-Flip-like map-sweep will.
Hopefully the Realms-fans alienated by the Uber-NPCs will like all the changes, but I think that - alas - the vast changes wrought by the Spellplague guarantee a different fragmentation. (Saying that doesn't mean I'm gleeful about it in the least. It's just a fact of life, like the weather...)
Anyhow it's vastly easier to bring back vanished characters than vanished realms. It's done in comics all the time...and in the Realms all the time as well. Everyone writing in this thread can bring back whichever NPC(s) they want, and so can the designers when they decide they're needed for whatever future storyline/novel. Much harder to un-nuke an entire Realm once a continent has been dropped on it, if one wants to keep using the Realms-as-they-publish-it.
It's very easy, if one wants to, to have them all re-appear in one's version of the Realms.
My version of the Realms is in the novels. Want to tell me how it is easy to get a company that cited these characters as problems to a) resurrect them and b) write more books about them?
I thought not.
My version of the Realms is in the novels. Want to tell me how it is easy to get a company that cited these characters as problems to a) resurrect them and b) write more books about them?
I thought not.
-If history proves right, make as big a fuss over it as possible, citing facts that are fuzzy and not 100% correct. :P
With the new starpact epic destiney I don't see why they didn't become stars.
I'm going to speculate here, and say that I think some or perhaps all of the Seven Chosen (...and others) may no longer exist in physical form..but live still on in consciousness. Ed recently offered up a nugget of insider information on The Mage of Shadowdale, and stated that Elminsters head is "a very crowded place" at present. Which leads me to believe that the Old Sage's mind may very well be home to more than just himself. The placement of that response within the thread gives me the impression, that some of the Realms important folk(s) may be retruning in times to come...
Don't forget, El housed the essence of Mystra until the end of the Godswar and the new Mystra had ascended via Midnight. El's head may be full of the power for a new goddess of magic.
And if this isn't what the devs had planned, well, people can use it as a way to ressurect a new Mystra who is the patron of magic and spellcasters, just not the goddess who can shut off someone's, anyone's even deities, access to magic anymore.
-That she's in the Dalelands, tending Elminster, why would they be anywhere but Shadoedale?
I have not seen an actual quote of the final text.
Does it actually say she is tending Elminster?
(probably not: Ed has basically said that she didn't...)
Gomez
They won't be back, that is wishful thinking. LK is right, it would trump everything they've done to get rid of the 'perceived' problems and would be counter productive to their goals.
-It's not like the left hand has no clue what the right hand is doing, though. Always a wildcard factor.
I have not seen an actual quote of the final text.
Does it actually say she is tending Elminster?
(probably not: Ed has basically said that she didn't...)
Gomez
-Elminster is "a mad hermit", as per the preview articles. I hear the FRCG didn't dote on that much, but that doesn't mean that what we've been told has been overruled. Being Elminster's lover, why else is the Simbul in the area if not to care for Elminster during his 'personal crisis' here?