Thanks in advance
Makuzi
Unfortunately, you only have the 4e sourcebooks to guide your path.
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On a lighter note, I saved $389 by switching to Geico today! :D
Brian James has said, well after the book debuted, that it isn't that destroyed. So, look for some possible flip flopping coming to a DDI article near you!
I doubt this story will play itself out in a DDI article. More likely, you'll learn of Neverwinter's fate in some future update to the Neverwinter Nights computer game franchise.
I doubt this story will play itself out in a DDI article. More likely, you'll learn of Neverwinter's fate in some future update to the Neverwinter Nights computer game franchise.
And you become helpful how?
The guys at WotC aren't going to say what happens to Neverwinter becuase they have licensed it out, which means NDAs say that even THEY can't touch it.
Its off-limits to everyone until the game comes out, and then we will probably see a series of DDi articles that convert the game lore into useful FR lore.
Evil CENSORED!
The guys at WotC aren't going to say what happens to Neverwinter becuase they have licensed it out, which means NDAs say that even THEY can't touch it.
-No it doesn't. The Forgotten Realms are the IP of WotC. Ultimatley, they are the ultimate source in what happens, what doesn't happen, and so on. Things that are licensed out, like video games, or DRAGON articles (in the past), or freelance novels, whatever, all need/get the approval of WotC before seeing print/production. In the case of a video game being developed, WotC dictates to whoever is developing it what they want to see, and then ultimately approve/disprove of what the developers and such bring to them as the product, in whatever stage it is in. WotC is "in charge", not the other way around. If a game was being developed, and whoever in WotC decided to tell everyone about how [Insert City, Place, Thing, Whatever] was, that's wholly in their ability to do so.
You are right about the intellectual property thing. But to give MT some backing, "license" can--and usually does--include creative leeway.
There are "boundaries" or "restrictions" in such cases, but not necessarily a need for a stamp of approval.
-No it doesn't. The Forgotten Realms are the IP of WotC. Ultimatley, they are the ultimate source in what happens, what doesn't happen, and so on. Things that are licensed out, like video games, or DRAGON articles (in the past), or freelance novels, whatever, all need/get the approval of WotC before seeing print/production.
Nope.
DING DING DING... need I remind you of the 'Zehir conundrum'?
The guys at WotC handed over the outline for the PHB so that the Bioware guys (or whoever makes those things) could produce a game based on the new rules. They took a liking to Zehir - a core god that the WotC boys forgot to mention was 'off-limits' - and built their entire story-line around him.
Now, WotC could have insisted that they use FR's Serpent God - Sseth - but they didn't. You know why? Because Bioware (or whomever) already shelled-out a lot of dough doing 'Zehir', so WotC backed-down and included Zehir in FR, instead of the other-way-around.
Another Example:
The reason why it took so many years for us to get ANY info about Ironfang Keep is because it was licensed to a video game company, for a game that was never made. That company may not even exist anymore, but there was a HUGE timespan included in the contract for development that only ran out recently.
The bottom line is, once WotC licenses something out to a game company, they can turn-around and SUE WotC fror producing conflicting information.
Ergo, we will never, EVER see any lore officially for a licensed piece of FR until after the license is use, at least in part (most games have sequels).
Furthermore, in the case of 'sequels', I'd be willing to bet that any lore WotC chooses to print from the video game (under agreement, of course) from the game company needs approval by the video game company FIRST, NOT the other way around (so as not to conflict with planned expansions).
Trust me... this is how it works - for all intents and purposes, Neverwinter belongs to another company until the duration of the contract runs out.
WotC are just the 'landords' - the tenets don't have to let anyone in. ;)
Nope.
DING DING DING... need I remind you of the 'Zehir conundrum'?
The guys at WotC handed over the outline for the PHB so that the Bioware guys (or whoever makes those things) could produce a game based on the new rules. They took a liking to Zehir - a core god that the WotC boys forgot to mention was 'off-limits' - and built their entire story-line around him.
Now, WotC could have insisted that they use FR's Serpent God - Sseth - but they didn't. You know why? Because Bioware (or whomever) already shelled-out a lot of dough doing 'Zehir', so WotC backed-down and included Zehir in FR, instead of the other-way-around.
-And, WotC would have had the ability to tell them to redo everything, remove Zehir, and replace...him/her/it(?) with Sseth if they felt inclined. Doing so would have pushed the project back (I believe Neverwinter Nights 2 was already pushed back to begin with) even more, and would have caused the WotC people- and, mind you, do you really think the people handling those licenses know the differences between Zehir or Sseth?- to have to shell out more money, to pay those video game designers for more work, change any promo material that they purchased in magazines, change release dates, and so on and so forth. It's much more cost effective to shrug, since to their perceptions, things like continuity errors or whatever else don't matter. The only thing that does is revenue.
The bottom line is, once WotC licenses something out to a game company, they can turn-around and SUE WotC fror producing conflicting information.
Ergo, we will never, EVER see any lore officially for a licensed piece of FR until after the license is use, at least in part (most games have sequels).
Furthermore, in the case of 'sequels', I'd be willing to bet that any lore WotC chooses to print from the video game (under agreement, of course) from the game company needs approval by the video game company FIRST, NOT the other way around (so as not to conflict with planned expansions).
Trust me... this is how it works - for all intents and purposes, Neverwinter belongs to another company until the duration of the contract runs out.
WotC are just the 'landords' - the tenets don't have to let anyone in. ;)
-No, no they can't- rather, they can, but their case hold little-to-no water. WotC is the license holder. A third-party that is contracted out can sue WotC for a breach of contract, if something in a particular contract is breached, but a third-party cannot successfully win a lawsuit if WotC releases information that contradicts something in their game/book/etc. Ultimatley, the license belongs to WotC, and WotC can do with it what they want.
-Wizards of the Coast is licensing out, in this case, the ability to produce a video game set in the city of Neverwinter. They are not selling the Neverwinter IP. Were this the case, then whoever purchased it (Bioware) could do whatever they want with Neverwinter, as it wouldn't be part of the Forgotten Realms anymore. Renting out the real estate, as it is, doesn't constitute selling it. That's a good analogy, actually.
-The renter can paint the walls however they like, decorate the place however they like, do minor repairs to the place as they wish, use the various rooms however they want to, but ultimately, the property belongs to the landlord. The landlord can set specific rules that the renter has to legally abide to, as written out in the lease between both sides- no pets, or no smoking are two common ones. At the same time, the renter has a little bit of "power" as well- they can discuss with the landlord what things the landlord has to replace, or what things the landlord has to fix, or when, and things like that. In the end, the landlord owns the property, and the renter is only renting it.
If WotC licenses out Tantras to someone, and then they have it taken over by Beholders and Lizardmen before that company releases their own product, they can turn around and say that WotC has lowered the value of the IP licensed to them, by creating conflicting material that their fans will not buy.
An IP is licendsed for MONEY - and that money is determined by the estimated worth the license could provide. If the parent company does ANYTHING that might lower the value of the license, they have just sold 'damage goods', so to speak, and the company has the right to sue on that grounds.
WotC simply cannot produce material that may conflict for that reason, and because there were NDAs signed. You cannot sell someone something and then 'damage it' after it is sold - and thats what it boils down to here.
Oh yes they can - thats why folks sign NDAs, which are required when licenses are in-place (just ask Ed).
-NDAs are Non-Disclosure Agreements, which prevent those who sign them from discussing information that is deemed not for "the public" concerning business ventures and the like. An NDA has no legal power whatsoever to stop WotC, the IP holder in this case, from doing something that somehow "overwrites" the contributions to the IP made by a third-party. An NDA prevents either party from divulging information to those who are not bound by the NDA, and that is all an NDA covers.
If WotC licenses out Tantras to someone, and then they have it taken over by Beholders and Lizardmen before that company releases their own product, they can turn around and say that WotC has lowered the value of the IP licensed to them, by creating conflicting material that their fans will not buy.
what WotC does to things that
An IP is licendses for MONEY - and that money is determined by the estimated worth the license could provide. If theparent company does ANYTHING that might lower the value of the lkicense, they have just sold 'damage goods', so to speak, andthe company has the right to sue for that.
-Do you really think that an argument like that will float in court? Like I corrected myself before, a person can sue a ham sandwich for being pork, but being able to bring someone to court and actually succeeding are two very different things, as I am sure you yourself know very well, having been a contractor and all.
-A lawyer for WotC, upon hearing that claim by Bioware, in this case, can make the counterargument that licensed video games have always been deemed non-canon, and as such, precidence dictates that Neverwinter Nights 3, in this, case, is also non-canon. As such, the events that happen in the game are not reflected in the official canon of the Forgotten Realms IP. Because of this, the Neverwinter of the Neverwinter Nights 3 game can vary from the Neverwinter of the established WotC IP. Because of this fact, the 'value' is not being "lowered", because, the game and the official WotC continuity are separate entities. You'll note that the authors of the Double Diamond Triangle books wrote material that was deemed non-canon, as Neverwinter Nights 3 would be, and that the continuity of the official WotC Forgotten Realms IP has gone in directions that would invalidate some of the aspects of these books. These various authors have, as far as we know, not sued WotC because of this, as the value of their books has also been "lessened", or, if these individuals have sued, we have not been made aware of them winning any court case(s) for WotC "lessening" the value of their independently contracted novel(s).
WotC simply cannot produce material that may conflict for that reason, and because there were NDAs signed. You cannot sell someone something and then 'damge it' after it is sold - and thats what it boils down to here.
-NDAs have nothing to do with this situation, as they deal with information. WotC is the IP holder of the Forgotten Realms. As such, the product is theirs to do with. So long as they do not violate specific contractual issues that may be written in to a contract between them and an independent third-party, the contracted third-party does not have the ability to win such a theoretical case.
The example I gave above was for Ironfang Keep - and that stupid NDA was for a license that was going on something like 15 years or so. Even if the company holding the license ceased to exist, WotC was STILL bound to the contract, even though it was signed by TSR before them. All contracts (including NDAs) carry-over to companies that aquire another company's IP.
The reason why much of the Realms are under NDA is because of these old licenses floating around.
And a contract isn't just a piece of paper with the words 'license' on it, you know - there is tons of legaleaze that both parties must adhere to, and part of that in this particular case is WotC having a 'hands-off' policy on ANYTHING they have licensed to others.
its not just the NDAs and the 'assumed worth' I mentioned above - there are clauses on these contracts that effectively put WotC out-of-the-loop for design purposes on certain things. Will they be consulted? I'm sure they are (athough I really don't think the current guys in charge would be of much help concerning lore). However, I'm sure the game company can take Neverwinter in any direction they wish and Zehir is proof of that.
Also, they made a big deal about "Bigger, badder Baldur's Gate' - you don't think that was a lead-in for the vid-game guys as well?
I guarantee you we will not see an inkling of BG lore either... until someone release a computer game for it.
Anyhow, Ed is constantly saying he cannot provide any lore on this or that subject because of NDAs - many of which have to do with licenses - so I know a little bit about what I'm talking about from hanging out at Candlekeep all the time.
And even if it wasn't part of the contract (which would be assinine, but lets assume its not) - it is just 'good business' to support your business-partners, and a licensee becomes just that. WotC makes money off these licenses - you don't think they want to keep those guys happy?
Conflicting lore in a shared-world setting is always detrimental, so rather then create that situation and aggravate their licensees, they would leave the licensed regions alone just on those grounds.
No matter how you slice it, WotC is NOT touching any realm they have licensed out, period.
Oh, will you two just shut the CENSORED up!??
EDIT: And I mean Karsus as well--he just isn't popping up.
NDAs are ALWAYS part of the package when parts of the FR IP are licensed out - just ask Ed (or even Brian).
-Right. This prevents those who sign them from publicly discussing the information that the NDAs cover. Parties who sign them cannot, without being in breach of that legally binding NDA contract, discuss with the public any matters that are consigned to confidentiality. That is all they do. They do not "freeze" certain information into place.
And a contract isn't just a piece of paper with the words 'license' on it, you know - there is tons of legaleaze that both parties must adhere to, and part of that in this particular case is WotC having a 'hands-off' policy on ANYTHING they have licensed to others.
-Nowhere has it been demonstrated that WotC includes a "hands-off" clause in things that are licensed out to others. It seems a friendly gesture of goodwill, that "if we do something for you, you won't erase it all", but it is not in WotC's best interests to allow third-party companies a "hands-off" policy when it comes to their IP, and as such, it is highly suspect that corporate lawyers would allow the company to enter into legally binding contractual agreements which do so. As such, I am going to label this claim suspect, and false until it can be proved.
its not just the NDAs and the 'assumed worth' I mentioned above - there are clauses on these contracts that effectively put WotC out-of-the-loop for design purposes on certain things. Will they be consulted? I'm sure they are (athough I really don't think the new guys in charge would be of much help concerning lroe). However, I'm sure the game company can take Neverwinter in any direction they wish and Zehir is proof of that.
-Wizards of the Coast is the holder of the IP. There is nothing that Wizards of the Coast can be "out of the loop about" if they don't want it. As I said before, since I already addressed it: WotC would have had the ability to tell them to redo everything, remove Zehir, and replace...him/her/it(?) with Sseth if they felt inclined. Doing so would have pushed the project back (I believe Neverwinter Nights 2 was already pushed back to begin with) even more, and would have caused the WotC people- and, mind you, do you really think the people handling those licenses know the differences between Zehir or Sseth?- to have to shell out more money, to pay those video game designers for more work, change any promo material that they purchased in magazines, change release dates, and so on and so forth. It's much more cost effective to shrug, since to their perceptions, things like continuity errors or whatever else don't matter. The only thing that does is revenue.
-The people who are in charge of licensing things out are not the same people who are in charge of designing things (the Bruce Cordells and Rich Bakers). The priorities of the people who license things are different from the priorities of Bruce Cordell, or Rich Baker. This may cause a headache for Bruce, or Rich, but ultimately, preserving continuity is not something that these individuals are caring about. If you told them that having Zehir in Realmspace was problematic, I am sure that most would not have known that.
-George Steinbrenner was the owner of the Yankees until last year. Do you think he understands baseball as intimately as, say, Tommy Lasorda, a guy I personally don't like, but a guy who's been in all levels of the industry for over 50 years? That is why Steinbrenner went out, got plenty of high priced free agents, upset team chemistry, and the Yankees haven't won since. His priorities and knowledge aren't the same as his GM, his manager, or his players.
Also, they made a big deal about "Bigger, badder Baldur's Gate' - you don't think that was a lead-in for the vid-game guys as well?
I guarantee you we will not see an inkling of BG lore either... until someone release a computer game for it.
-There have been "bigger, badder" numerous places. If I am not mistaken, Baldur's Gate has already seen new lore since the FRCG/FRPG were released via Living Forgotten Realms materials, anyway.
Anyhow, Ed is constantly saying he cannot provide any lore on this or that subject because of NDAs - many of which have to do with licenses - so I know a little bit about what I'm talking about from hanging out at Candlekeep all the time.
-Yes, because he is legally obligated as per NDAs that he signed when he sold various things to TSR/WotC, or was contracted by TSR/WotC to write things. All NDAs cover are Ed Greenwood and TSR/WotC's ability to freely discuss aspects of joint ventures. Ed Greenwood cannot talk about X and Y, but he can talk about Z. Likewise, TSR/WotC cannot talk about X and Y, but can talk about Z. Ed Greenwood and TSR/WotC are both subject to those same NDAs, but if WotC wanted to, they don't have to be beholden to what Ed Greenwood wrote, that is covered under NDA. Agreeing to an NDA in no way means that. TSR/WotC has, in multiple cases, disregarded Ed Greenwood's whatever, in favor of their own. That the two sides were legally bound by an NDA on whatever the issue was didn't mean that WotC was contractually obligated to use Ed Greenwood's material, as it was when the NDA was signed. All it meant was that neither side, because of those NDAs, are allowed to discuss what was in the NDAs, or even the existence of NDAs, in some cases.
And even if it wasn't part of the contract (which would be assinine, but lets assume its not) - it is just 'good business' to support your business-partners, and a licensee becomes just that. WotC makes money off these licenses - you don't think they want to keep those guys happy?
Conflicting lore in a shared-world setting is always detrimental, so rather then create that situation and aggravate their licensees, they would leave the licensed regions alone just on those grounds.
No matter how you slice it, WotC is NOT touching any realm they have licensed out, period.
-Right, this is the case here, not what you were saying. WotC has every right to change things that they, themselves, as WotC put out, or what independently-contracted third-parties put out, with WotC's "stamp of approval". With in-house things, it is constantly being done- how much stuff has been retconned and/or changed in just sourcebooks alone, from the beginning of 3e to now? A bunch of things. A bunch of things in novels have been retconned and/or changed to better fit the current mantra as well.
-WotC could change aspects of third-party video games, like Baldur's Gate, or Icewind Dale, or Neverwinter Nights, or Demonstone, as well. Is it in their best interests? No, probably not. As you said, if they screw with those independent parties, they are not likely to broker project agreements with them again, and are likely to sully their reputation, to a degree. By having things "done over", they are also losing money, in paying people to have something say one thing, and then paying people to have something else say a different thing. All in all, it's not an advantageous thing for WotC to do, so they don't do it. If they wanted/needed to, for whatever reason, could they? Yes, absolutely.
But hasn't Storm of Zehir been released already anyway? Either play the game of check a walkthrough online and you might learn a bit about what has happened to the city of Neverwinter. Or maybe not; I haven't checked the game myself.
Alright, I give 3 cents.
You are right about the intellectual property thing. But to give MT some backing, "license" can--and usually does--include creative leeway.
There are "boundaries" or "restrictions" in such cases, but not necessarily a need for a stamp of approval.
IMO Hasbro is in charge. They make money off of NWN. So they make sure that WOTC can't touch it and leave it to the game designers hands. So in effect WOTC is powerless when it comes down to Neverwinter and any info on it.
IMO Hasbro is in charge. They make money off of NWN. So they make sure that WOTC can't touch it and leave it to the game designers hands. So in effect WOTC is powerless when it comes down to Neverwinter and any info on it.
I wouldn't say "powerless."
Find the "in effect" part for me.
We can all (pretty much) agree that the contracts probably contain numerous NDAs, so that both parties are mutually protected from any 'slip-ups'. Even if no such clauses exist (and I repeat: that would be assinine), WotC - or Hasbro, if you prefer - will not detail a region that might get some sort of conflicting treatment in a video game.
They were told that in the outcome of the game Neverwinter got hit hard - and they passed that along to us. Maybe in a year or so - probably just before the release of the next expansion (companies love doing that - it re-generates interest) - we will get the 'scoop' about what happened, and it will probably also be on the DDi (why not make money off of it all over again?). They used to have articles like that all the time in the REAL Dragon Magazine - applying computer-game material to the D&D game.
ANYHOW... the bottom line is either they can't, for multiple legal reasons, or they just won't, because it's 'impolite'... but no matter how you slice it, we won't be seeing anything tangible about Neverwinter until Obsidian says its okay.
Is WotC 'powerless'? Of course not... that would be absurd... they still OWN the damn thing! But they also don't want to do anything that will further jeopardize an already rocky boat.
The former part of your post is accurate, especially in the case of the Non-Disclosure Agreements. That, I feel, is a big key.
As for the latter, I wasn't concerned with NWN in itself. Just how things tend to work in general.
Stigger has the right of it... as do just about everyone else (except, perhaps , LK, who stil thinks WotC can do whatever they want, partners be damned).
-Legally, yes, yes they can. The Forgotten Realms is the intellectual property of Wizard of the Coast/Hasbro. The company is the ultimate arbiter of what happens and/or does not happen in their property. An independent third party- in this case, Bioware- can be contracted to make video games. If, whenever after the fact, WotC decides that it does not want to go in the direction that the independently contracted Bioware went with the game, they can, at their leisure, alter and change things until they see it fit to stop. That may or may not damage their reputation, depending on what is said and done.
We can all (pretty much) agree that the contracts probably contain numerous NDAs, so that both parties are mutually protected from any 'slip-ups'. Even if no such clauses exist (and I repeat: that would be assinine), WotC - or Hasbro, if you prefer - will not detail a region that might get some sort of conflicting treatment in a video game.
-MT, again, all NDAs do are prohibit those who sign them from talking to the public about the information they "protect". NDAs do not "freeze information" in place. Contractual clauses can, in theory, "freeze information" in place, if they are written into contracts. These are not NDAs. NDAs have absolutely nothing to do with the concept of "freezing information" in place.
Is WotC 'powerless'? Of course not... that would be absurd... they still OWN the damn thing! But they also don't want to do anything that will further jeopardize an already rocky boat.
-Point in key.
He has said this, so either I'm right, or Ed's lying.
Non-disclosure means they CANNOT DISCUSS IT OR LEAK INFORMATION PERTAINING TO THE SUBJECT MATTER OF THE NDA IN ANY MEDIA.
So, pray tell, my genius friend, where exactly is WotC putting all this wonderful lore they are allowed to create? Up their arses?
Sure... they can make-up whatever they want for a region... but then again, so can you and I. The point is the CANNOT relese any lore they create if there is an NDA in effect. Disclosre is disclosure, and thats thats.
But according to Ed, he is NOT ALLOWED to create lore for a region with an NDA on it - some of them from Video games!
He has said this, so either I'm right, or Ed's lying.
-Because most things that are given NDAs are subsequently written about in novels, sourcebooks, or whatever else. Because of his special contract, what Ed Greenwood says is considered official. If a particular plot, or idea, or whatever is going to be featured in a sourcebook, or novel, or whatever else, it is considered official as well. You can't have Ed Greenwood "stepping on the toes" of another author/designer, and creating something that is official (because he said it) that contradicts, opposes, alters, etc. something that has been discussed in meetings, that authors and/or designers are going to write about. Other authors/designers, you'll notice, who don't have such clauses in their contracts produce plenty of speculation. Look at Rich Baker, for example. In his thread, many questions are asked of him. Many responses, he makes it known that he doesn't know for certain, or that he isn't in the loop, but he gives his suggestions and personal opinions. If what he said was then considered official, he would not be able to do this.
Non-disclosure means they CANNOT DISCUSS IT OR LEAK INFORMATION PERTAINING TO THE SUBJECT MATTER OF THE NDA IN ANY MEDIA.
-Correct. And, that's ALL an NDA does. It does not "freeze information" in place, as you've been suggesting. If an NDA is signed, WotC can decide, at any time, they they want to disregard/add to certain ideas that were discussed, and that's fine.
So, pray tell, my genius friend, where exactly is WotC putting all this wonderful lore they are allowed to create? Up their arses?
-They sit on it. I am sure that you know just as well as I about the "basement full of boxes" that Ed Greenwood has in his house, pertaining to the Forgotten Realms.
Sure... they can make-up whatever they want for a region... but then again, so can you and I. The point is the CANNOT relese any lore they create if there is an NDA in effect. Disclosre is disclosure, and thats thats.
-The major difference between you and I, and WotC is that what they say is considered official, whereas what we say, that isn't. If an NDA is signed, all that means is that both sides to the contractual agreement cannot disclose information about whatever the joint project is, to the "general public". Can an NDA be signed, the project gone ahead with, and then WotC decides to go in another direction? Yes. We have evidence of this with Marc Anthony's Drizzt series that was canceled when R.A. Salvatore decided to come back on board with WotC. Can a designer/author sign an NDA, begin a project, and then decide to call it off, going in another direction? Yes. We have evidence of this with Elaine Cunningham getting X far in Reclamation, but deciding that she couldn't finish the book to her liking/standards.
I read on another forums site that Neverwinter was destroyed in the new 4E rules... Does anyone know where I could find a book list for where this happens so I can read up on it??? Also any kind of book list would be great so I can see what im missing in the Forgotten Realms story lines. Thanks in advance Makuzi
BUMP!
OK here is where I sound like a total fool. I have not managed to keep up with most of the Realms storyline (being in a small town in the UK all we get are the RA Salvatore novels about the Realms) and I am totally lost as to the whole Spellplague Transition thing. I have had a quick search around online about this subject and found that the info is somewhat sparse. As previously mentioned I lost my way a bit when it came to keeping up and now that I am reading The Orc King I found myself at a loss as to what all has been going on and the vast changes that seemed to have taken place on Toril.
Could someone (someones) please give me a brief but through explanation of what has gone on. The loast book I read was the second book in the trilogy (see this is how long I have been away) about the return of the Shade Enclave. For some reason I can't get hold of the final book in that trilogy in the shops around me. So any info would be much appreciated.
cheers
Maklelin Highbain
OK here is where I sound like a total fool. I have not managed to keep up with most of the Realms storyline (being in a small town in the UK all we get are the RA Salvatore novels about the Realms) and I am totally lost as to the whole Spellplague Transition thing. I have had a quick search around online about this subject and found that the info is somewhat sparse. As previously mentioned I lost my way a bit when it came to keeping up and now that I am reading The Orc King I found myself at a loss as to what all has been going on and the vast changes that seemed to have taken place on Toril.
Could someone (someones) please give me a brief but through explanation of what has gone on. The loast book I read was the second book in the trilogy (see this is how long I have been away) about the return of the Shade Enclave. For some reason I can't get hold of the final book in that trilogy in the shops around me. So any info would be much appreciated.
cheers
Maklelin Highbain
Gee, how to summarize this briefly? Okay, here goes: In the year 1385 DR, the goddess of loss, Shar, teamed up with god of murder, Cyric, and infiltrated the homeplane of their mutual nemesis, Mystra, the goddess of magic. For reasons that still haven't been successfully explained to us, they were able to bypass Mystra's defenses and reach her inner sanctum, where Cyric slew her. Mystra's death resulted in the destruction of the Weave, which unraveled and exploded across Realmspace. The destruction of the Weave created many cosmological disasters. The realms of the gods were shaken about, resulting in much chaos and destruction. The Intermediate to Demipowers were forced to rely on the Greater Gods for protection, as they were the only ones strong enough to maintain order (with Tyr, former god of justice, being a notable exception). During these catastrophes, some gods lost power (such as Garl Glittergold, whose homeplane the Golden Hills merged with Arvandor, home of the elven gods), some gods gained power (such as Torm, who replaced Tyr upon that god's death), some gods perished (such as Azuth, who was slain by the archdevil Asmodeus, who in turn used Azuth's divine essence to become a god himself), and other gods were revealed to be aspects of other gods (the elven goddess Hanali Celanil, for example, was revealed to have always been the human goddess Sune in elven form). These changes had consequences of varying magnitude.
Meanwhile, the destruction of the Weave also ushered in turmoil in the material plane, Toril. Wild magic ripped through the world, obliterating and twisting landscapes and civilizations. Its ravages were quite unpredictable. Some areas with low levels of magic, such as the Dalelands, were spared many of the horrors found elsewhere. Some magic-heavy areas, such as Halruua, were annihilated, while others, such as Waterdeep, were spared (for some reason, also known as the will of the designers). Many of the former lands which once prospered now lie in ruins (Starmantle, Zhentil Keep, Luskan). Many portals no longer function. Also, many famous NPCs died over the course of the past century (Mirt, most of the Seven Sisters, etc.) The year is now 1479 DR (a massive leap indeed), things have settled for the most part, and evil's threat is (in the eyes of the designers) more prominent now.
There's a helluva lot more to it, but hopefully that's a good enough start.
cheers that was useful. It explains alot of what was going on in the first chapter of Orc King. Has it been released in a Campaign setting then? I have seen a map and your description helps place some of what seems to have changed on there. Can anyone recommend any of the novels that will fill in any of these major gaps?
At least I have a vague idea of what is going on now which is a massive improvement on what I knew.
cheers that was useful. It explains alot of what was going on in the first chapter of Orc King. Has it been released in a Campaign setting then?
These changes are the premise of Fourth Edition Forgotten Realms, which was released last August/September. The only books out are the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, FR Players' Guide, and the adventure, Scepter Tower of Spellgard.
I have seen a map and your description helps place some of what seems to have changed on there. Can anyone recommend any of the novels that will fill in any of these major gaps?
Let's see:
1. Plague of Spells (Abolethic Sovereignty, Book 1) - Describes destruction of Starmantle, Thesk circa 1390s DR, Plaguewrought Land circa 1390s DR, undersea status circa 1390 DR
2. Undead (Haunted Lands, Book 2) - Describes initial Spellplague effects in Thay, rise of Szass Tam to complete dominance, fall of the Zulkirs, increased undead presence
3. Unholy (Haunted Lands, Book 3) - Describes modern-day Thay (1478 DR), undead domination of Thay, regency of Szass Tam, elimination of the Zulkirs
4. Swordmage (Blades of the Moonsea, Book 1) - Describes modern-day Moonsea area, mentions changes from 3E to 4E via tidbits and allusions
5. Corsair (BotM, Book 2) - Describes modern-day Moonsea area, further attention to areas besides Hulburg, features the Tears of Selune, further history of Hulburg
6-9. Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep (The entire series) - Blackstaff Tower -> Legacy of the Blackstaff line following Khelben, modern-day Waterdeep, intrigue / Mistshore -> Modern-day Waterdeep, criminal presence, Dock Ward slums (title's namesake), further look at Spellplague energy / Downshadow - >Modern-day Waterdeep, Criminal presence, Panorama of entire city, Chaotic underground (title's namesake), Insight into Helm, Tyr, Torm relationship / City of the the Dead -> Modern-day Waterdeep, Great insight into graveyard, Nobility of Waterdeep
10. The Fractured Sky (Empyrean Odyssey, Book 2) - Turmoil in the House of the Triad, Demise of the Watcher, Departure of Ilmater, The World Tree, Status of Dweomerheart and residents, Fall of Mystra
11. The Crystal Mountain (EO, Book 3) - Devastation in the House of the Triad, Aftermath of Mystra's demise, Cosmological catastrophes, Invasion of Mt. Celestia
*Be Warned* These novels are not necessarily guaranteed to provide a satisfactory revelation, nor do they provide critical insight into the events which transpired, which are quite numerous. This is especially true for these last two, which deal with so many transitions that major events are listed in single sentences and then passed by
again thanks for that. I am here in states for another 10 days so I will see which of these I can pick up while here.
It does seem odd that they are leaving so many holes in the new history, I guess it gives them leave to release as many books and adventures that everyone will need to pick up covering so many of the holes in the tales. Quite clever of them %dead tight) but mind you WoTC have always figured out how to charge people for stuff they wouldn't usually have bought. I have been playing D&D since 1982 when it was 1st Edition. It wasn't until the late 80s that the 2 Edition came out then that was unchanged for many years and now they have gone through 3E, 3.5E and now 4E in no time at all so to keep up you keep needing to by more and more manuals of updates and changes. I still play 2E and have no real intention of changing that. For the last 15 years I have DMed my PCs on my own world as it has become impossible to keep up with all the changes and it gives me more scope for all the writing I do to have my PCs wander around and inspire new ideas from new towns and provinces that I have left reasonably bare.
there are now a few pics up on my profile of art from my world. View at your leisure
It does seem odd that they are leaving so many holes in the new history, I guess it gives them leave to release as many books and adventures that everyone will need to pick up covering so many of the holes in the tales.
Complete opposite, actually. The designers created this century time jump in order to draw attention away from past lore. They felt the amount of content which had been written for the Realms over the years was too intimidating to new players, and wanted to give these players room to breathe. They purposefully left the history and information light so that DMs and players had more free reign (which is funny, because they always had such free reign, contrary to popular belief). Also, they apparently felt authors were running out of room to write stories, so they gave them a century to play with.
Possibly. But I am always dubious of WoTC and their tactics, I have been playing D&D long before WoTC got involved and I have found that they are more about the contentment of their own wallets that the contentment of the fans. Mind you I do often skip ahead by decades if not centuries of my time-line when I write, it does solve the problem of stagnation but like I said WoTC always leave me thinking, "is this for the fans or for you?" each time they do something like this.
But the nice thing about the Realms was that the players knew where and why everything was the way it was. History was explained and detailed. Characters were where you knew them to be and why they were. Like I mentioned before that I use my own world as a DM, but a lot of my PCs liked the fact that with the Realms everything was just so, the changes that came about due to novels was there for them to read so you could keep up with changes and could continue to play as if they were part of a novel. Everyone they met that played the Realms were almost playing the same campaign with all the major plot points unchanged between them and other players. It had a cohesiveness that spread globally. But (if what you said is true about this being for the fans) this is truly for them that will now change with each campaign and with each DM having to create the past seems to defeat the major point of a campaign setting. If a DM (in my opinion) wants to make his own past for the Realms they may as well run a campaign on a world of their own devising.