-As for the Chosen of Sune, there is no canon individual who serves her in that way.
But, I agree, F&A is a better start for a focus to model your character.
Some are about 'true love', but for the most part, they are just a bunch of 'pretty faces'.
And, if it was me, I don't want to know.
As Ed has said, she's just Aphrodite with a different name. Imagine turning Narcissism into a religion, and your pretty close.
Some are about 'true love', but for the most part, they are just a bunch of 'pretty faces'.
Well, you have to put something more to make it CG, I guess ;) . I envision it as more of a beauty cult, but with the actual priest/esses more than pretty faces (though they are usually stereotyped that way) . Far easier to plot and scheme when everyone thinks you're just an affable airhead (and, incidentally, how to get in your pants).
That Series set so many bad-examples, its hard to get away from it, even over a decade later.
Edit: I think This Girl is one of her priestesses. :D
Not when you read about Adon - who I think is the only canon example of her priesthood in a novel.
-I don't think that a single example of anything is indicative of the total sum of whatever it may be. I mean, for example, I am smart, beautiful, and totally awesome, but not everyone in my family is. ;)
-That's the kind of thing that leads to stereotypes of all Catholic Priests being child molesters, all Hasidic Rabbis being cheap, all Shi'ite Imams being fundamentalist terrorists, all Protestant Ministers being "hell-and-brimstone" orators, all Buddhism Monks being martial artists, and so on.
:P :D
That Series set so many bad-examples, its hard to get away from it, even over a decade later.
2 decades.
-I don't think that a single example of anything is indicative of the total sum of whatever it may be. I mean, for example, I am smart, beautiful, and totally awesome, but not everyone in my family is. ;)
:rolleye2:
The only other Sunite I know in novels is in RAS Series staring Canbury (sp?), the priest and future chosen of Denier. She spent most of the two main novels she focused on as a sex-obessed vain woman with a desire to remove the hero's virginity. She was hit by a divine potion which made one obsessed with their most favourite action, she spent it being intimate with many of the priest in the monstary in my memory (haven't read the books in a long time). She met a horrible fate in the last book, which hinted at a lack of divine power and/or faith.
Name of the monastery? Might want to join.
:rolleye2:
-Alright, you got me. I'm pretty ugly, am getting progressively stupider as a I age, and I'm not that all around 'awesome'. The crux of the point remains, though.
Yup - two examples of Sunites in canon, and both are conceited twits.
And we wonder where people get all those wrong ideas about FR - it even happens to me.
The only other Sunite I know in novels is in RAS Series staring Canbury (sp?), the priest and future chosen of Denier. She spent most of the two main novels she focused on as a sex-obessed vain woman with a desire to remove the hero's virginity. She was hit by a divine potion which made one obsessed with their most favourite action, she spent it being intimate with many of the priest in the monstary in my memory (haven't read the books in a long time). She met a horrible fate in the last book, which hinted at a lack of divine power and/or faith.
Ugh, I wasn't fond of how RAS wrote that character. I distinctly recall him even describing Sune's religion in general as being only about physical desire without love (not true!). I would definitely not use those novels as reliable sources on Sune's religion.
Also, it's "Cadderly"--The Cleric Quintet series.
-She is more than just narcissism. Artistic beauty, poetic beauty, all of that good stuff, too. And then, of course, love.
Correct.
One last thing--Heirs of Prophecy features a priestess of both Sune and Hanali as the main character. She is not a conceited twit...at all.
-I don't think that a single example of anything is indicative of the total sum of whatever it may be. I mean, for example, I am smart, beautiful, and totally awesome, but not everyone in my family is. ;)
-That's the kind of thing that leads to stereotypes of all Catholic Priests being child molesters, all Hasidic Rabbis being cheap, all Shi'ite Imams being fundamentalist terrorists, all Protestant Ministers being "hell-and-brimstone" orators, all Buddhism Monks being martial artists, and so on.
Well they would have to be quite a few examples of each otherwise the stereotype wouldn't have been created
Vanity: She must always maintain her beauty while never letting a single flaw into that beauty, Vanity is one of the Seven Deadly Sins and thus evil. Which is a flaw and mars her perfection.
Predjudice: Another negative emotion which she has displayed(When Adon was scarred and in need of guidance during ToT her church turned him away because of the disffigurement).
These are just two examples off the top of my head showing her hypocrisy. I personally have no issue with Sune but just thought I'd throw that in the conversation:smirks:
BTW who would be her counterpart : God of Fugliness
Bane?Adon returned in "The Curse Of Tegea" in Realms Of Valor, which dealt with his scar somehow, though he still had it by the end.
(Both of these are by Troy Denning, btw.)
Sune seems to be surprisingly poorly served by the novels.
We're not helping the OP much are we? But there's not much that can be said without rewriting the F&A entry.
Sune is beauty and love perfected. She can't have anything negative in her sphere thoughts acts(or so it is believed) nor can she have any flaws in her appearance or divinity. She is also a an excellent example of hypocrisy. Just to start
Vanity: She must always maintain her beauty while never letting a single flaw into that beauty, Vanity is one of the Seven Deadly Sins and thus evil. Which is a flaw and mars her perfection.
Predjudice: Another negative emotion which she has displayed(When Adon was scarred and in need of guidance during ToT her church turned him away because of the disffigurement).
These are just two examples off the top of my head showing her hypocrisy. I personally have no issue with Sune but just thought I'd throw that in the conversation:smirks:
BTW who would be her counterpart : God of Fugliness
First off, those seven deadlies aren't exactly applicable on Faerun, and don't really have a place there, given their origins are from an extraordinarily sex-negative religion that would likely be viewed as worse than pretty much every other evil faith combined, given their attitudes towards most things, which are about as Anti-Sune as you can get.
Secondly, you're talking about the church, and not necessarily the goddess. So long as he was still getting spells, couldn't say one way or another, then I don't see the issue.
As far as Sune as Aphrodite renamed, no offense to Ed, but that's one of the stupidest things I've yet heard. Her portfolios offer so much more depth than they're given that it makes my head hurt just thinking about that attitude. Same with Lliira though... who should pretty much be the patroness of democracies as far as I'm concerned.
But I was positive that Sune was actually at the church that Adon went to. But I could be wrong which further invalidates my hypocrisy theory.
Not a good day for the Manthingy first Jarlaxle's alignment then this.
Well they would have to be quite a few examples of each otherwise the stereotype wouldn't have been created
-Very true. But, all in all, when you stack up those that fit the stereotype of whatever to those who don't, those who don't are usually greater in number. A stereotype needs only a small sample, whereas, the "truth" needs a much larger one.
Sune backwards is 'enus'. Prefix that with a 'V' and you get the Roman name for Aphrodite, Venus.
-Interesting catch. I wonder if it is actually intentional or just a coincidental quirk.
He has stated that Sune is based on Aphrodite/Venus, and may even in fact be her, and he has stated pretty much the same thing about Gond being Haephastus/Vulcan, but I personally see a greater likeness in Gond to Goibhnie (Celtic), not just in name, but in form and function (Haephustus was an ugly hunchback). Gond is probably an Amalgam of both.
Ilmatar's name is take from Ilmater (Ed seemed to really love those Finnish gods), but the god itself is Issek of the Jug (Newhon Mythos).
None of this helps very much with the OP, unfortunately, but if she can find some reference to Aphrodite's church and forms of worship, it may be applicable.
Ed was VERY find of the original 1e Deities & Demigods, and most of his gods are either directly taken from there - in name, form, or both - or from other literature (Nobanion=Aslan, his Elemental gods are all taken from Moorcock's works, etc..).
He has stated that Sune is based on Aphrodite/Venus, and may even in fact be her, and he has stated pretty much the same thing about Gond being Haephastus/Vulcan, but I personally see a greater likeness in Gond to Goibhnie (Celtic), not just in name, but in form and function (Haephustus was an ugly hunchback). Gond is probably an Amalgam of both.
Ilmatar's name is take from Ilmater (Ed seemed to really love those Finnish gods), but the god itself is Issek of the Jug (Newhon Mythos).
None of this helps very much with the OP, unfortunately, but if she can find some reference to Aphrodite's church and forms of worship, it may be applicable.
Actually this might make it easier if you have Wikipedia, since you not only get the RL Venus/Aphrodite but also the version of her which have appeared in media from Hercules/Xena, Marvel, DC, Disney and the rest. You just type in Venus and Aphrodite, then keep searching. You can also cross reference with other love/Beauty goddesses.
Can anyone help me out with a bit of lore and stuff? I'm playing a Heartwarder character in a campaign and am looking at how to roleplay him well. I know the basics about being a Sunite, but I was wondering if you all could maybe help me out with some more information? Does Sune have Chosen (and if so, who?)? What days are considered holy for her? Are there any particular rituals of note for her faithful? What kind of plot hooks are good for such a character (my DM is very open to plot suggestions)? Any and all Sunite lore is welcome, as well as suggestions on how to play such a character effectively! Thanks in advance!
To answer some specific questions:
Some Sunite holidays are: Greengrass ("outdoor frolicking", mostly), and Midsummer Night ("night-long flirtatious chases through forests and parks"). Once a month, they have a Grand Revel (dusk-to-dawn party, outsiders invited to see the temple, dancing and music), and once a tenday a Feast Of Love (a quieter affair for the faithful, with dancers, love songs, poetry, intimacy).
When they pray, Sunites will stand in a pool or bath, looking into a mirror, with lighting only by candles or natural light. When seeking to join the faith, seek guidance or atonement, they take a night long Candle Vigil, same set-up, and the reflection in the mirror alters in some way to provide an answer
Sunites are supposed to spread and promote love and beauty in all their forms. Unlike those seen in the novels, they should also focus on inner beauty, teaching people to be comfortable with their bodies, etc. Like all those make-over shows.
Some plot hooks (a bit hard to tell them to you, you're the PC!):
* Find ways to bring people together and fall in love, and help those in love stay in love.
* Someone's lover has gone missing, and you need to help bring them back. (This could be any kind of missing person adventure.)
* A succubus is in town, causing chaos and ruining love-lives.
* A man has apparently fallen in love with a kind of monstrous woman: a fey, a succubus, an erinyes, etc. The Sunite needs to determine if its real love or if she has some hold over him.
* Find a artistic treasure. Or help an artist in trouble.
* Judge a beauty contest.
(There's a Paladin Of Sune in one of my games. I've had two in total, as well as a Paladin Of Angarradh with a similar aim.)
Vanity: She must always maintain her beauty while never letting a single flaw into that beauty, Vanity is one of the Seven Deadly Sins and thus evil. Which is a flaw and mars her perfection.
1) Why would this Judeo-Christian concept have grounding in the FR? Even then, the "Seven Deadly Sins" as I understand are really conditions that could lead to sin (and sin, by the way, isn't necessarily the same as "evil", and would mean different things to different deites in a polytheistic world). Lastly, I don't see how a goddess could sin against herself.
2) I fail to see how vanity itself could be considered evil, even if one conceeds that it might be a flaw.
I see Stigger covered this but I wanted to put in my thoughts as well, if you don't mind.
As far as Sune as Aphrodite renamed, no offense to Ed, but that's one of the stupidest things I've yet heard.
While I wouldn't go quite that far, I do have to say I never quite saw enough of a resemblance between the two deities for me to consider them the same character.
-Very true. But, all in all, when you stack up those that fit the stereotype of whatever to those who don't, those who don't are usually greater in number. A stereotype needs only a small sample, whereas, the "truth" needs a much larger one.
Also, stereotypes are helped along by conformation bias (people remember what appears to give credence to their prejudice and overlook/ignore what doesn't).
BadCatMan, I love (heehee) those adventure hooks.
No joke here i am seriously trying to understand this concept and any help would be appreciated. 
RF and the rest
I will always accept
if I am wrong and will always accept from those who are wiser than me on these boards. All opinions are welcome. Just bring chocolate milk 
when the opinions come in
So when authors used the vain and sex crazed sterotypes, it was because they had a object they couldn't use well.
Doesn't Sune represent the epitome of Beauty and love? How can true beauty have a flaw and still be true beauty? A
Depends on how you define flaw, and who's doing the defining. Maybe I hate large noses with tiny nostrils... but someone else may like them and consider them very attractive features. The beauty truly lies in the emotion and feelings a thing engenders and inspires, not in some quantifiable physical definition. There's a difference between physical perfection and beauty as it is.
Supposedly, perfect symmetry on a face is considered a 'perfect' appearance, but to be honest, when it shows up, I find it pretty boring and very uninspiring. Same goes with figures really... I prefer curvaceous and voluptuous, and find little attractive in waifish uber-thin looks. When it comes down to it, beauty is where you find it, in what you find it, and as long as you find it beautiful, that's all that really matters.
As they say, it really is in the eye of the beholder, as trite and cliche as that saying is by now.
Hells, Byron should be more than proof of that I think. By all accounts he wasn't exactly what you'd call attractive physically, but he could charm and woo with the best of them because of his words and personality... just something about him that went beyond the physical and touched people. I'd definitely call that a form of beauty, personally anyway.
One last thing--Heirs of Prophecy features a priestess of both Sune and Hanali as the main character. She is not a conceited twit...at all.
Yeah I just finished that novel a few days ago, but there isn't much explanation what it means or is to be a sunite. Only that you smell some flowers when you cast a spell from her ;)
And at the end the two love spells but that really looked like the author noticed that there were allready so many pages and he has to make a quick finish of the story...
Ok I retract the Evil and Seven Deadlies part of my point. Doesn't Sune represent the epitome of Beauty and love? How can true beauty have a flaw and still be true beauty? A
Sune is Beauty, but that doesn't make her perfect (though I think perfection isn't all it's cracked up to be anyway...).
RF and the rest
I will always accept
Chocolate milk, yum.:D
Yeah I just finished that novel a few days ago, but there isn't much explanation what it means or is to be a sunite. Only that you smell some flowers when you cast a spell from her ;)
Yes, that's a fair point, from what I remember. I mentioned Larajin as an example of a Sunite in the novels who didn't act shallow, selfish, etc.
I mentioned Larajin as an example of a Sunite in the novels who didn't act shallow, selfish, etc.
yeah thats true
Great...
Poor Sune, she needs better PR. :P
Chocolate milk, yum.:D
Stop CENSORED encouraging him!!
Lil' bastard will drink me out of house and home.
---
ORCS!!
Can we have a group therapy session? What is going on here is CENSORED retarded.
I'm a good guy! Really!
So. we have two examples of selfish, self-indulgent egotists, and one who's farts smell like flowers.
Great...
Poor Sune, she needs better PR. :P
They better be careful less the end up create a Smug storm of epic proportions.
They better be careful less the end up create a Smug storm of epic proportions.
I think it was both the structure of the Dogma of Sune (which hinted that one could not be "marred" so scars and such were seen as divine punishment. This was true of ancient religion where being poor/ugly/blind/stupid/deaf/sick/etc as being punishments from god for lack of faith or obedience to god).
So when authors used the vain and sex crazed sterotypes, it was because they had a object they couldn't use well.
I think this changed with Sune's acceptance/embracing of Ilmater as her Exarch. I was surprised it took her so long to do it, considering Ilmater represents compassion and suffering for the greater good.
If I ever play a Sunite, I'd have her be ugly (or plain lookin), with warts. If one is truly loving, compassionate, and self-sacrificing, then people will see beauty within you. Most of the time, physical beauty intimidates and cows people, making them feel ashamed to be in the presence of such "perfection".
As for the OP, what is his personal set of beliefs? What makes him a Heartwarder? If I remember it right, they're pretty loving and compassionate; soothing others' pain by sharing the load.
And finally, idk why but I keep imagining the martial arm of the Sunite church to be similar to the Star Sapphires of DCU.
Show
Sune/love is a lie. True beauty lies in the black void that is Shar. Everything fades to nothingness, eventually.
Bloody Sharrans...
:inlove: You know you love it! :inlove:
Bloody Sharrans...
Oh for the love of choclate milk
Nowhere is safe from that infestation.;) @ A_O
I'm all about Brightwater.
Unless there's a really good lasagna involved, then maybe we can talk a bit.
Unless there's a really good lasagna involved, then maybe we can talk a bit.
Lol. Y'know, I actually CAN make great lasagna as I've learned the recipe while watching my aunt cook it (my all time fave Italian dish). But I warn you, itsa SPICEY! :D
Show
Lasagna can be the secret you entrust upon Shar during your initiation.
Stig?
You're not wearing thing-high fishnets and leather boots, are you?
Gahk!!You CENSORED butt-tard, that is just gross!!
If I ever play a Sunite, I'd have her be ugly (or plain lookin), with warts. If one is truly loving, compassionate, and self-sacrificing, then people will see beauty within you. Most of the time, physical beauty intimidates and cows people, making them feel ashamed to be in the presence of such "perfection".
A good point is a good point even if it comes from a fan of Shar's ;)
His "point" is a self wanting prophesy doomed to fail.
There is, of course, nothing wrong with it--just be aware that there is an engine on the plane that is more than likely to fail and plunge you into the ground with a horrifying, retarded ending....
His "point" is a self wanting prophesy doomed to fail.
There is, of course, nothing wrong with it--just be aware that there is an engine on the plane that is more than likely to fail and plunge you into the ground with a horrifying, retarded ending....
Everything is doomed to fail, even my own "self wanting prophecy". Everything returns to the nothingness of Shar. It is INEWITABLE!!!
I kid you not... thats just too funny. :D
They sound like the cast of Mean Girls.
Everything is doomed to fail, even my own "self wanting prophecy". Everything returns to the nothingness of Shar. It is INEWITABLE!!!
Um....
Yes. There is an 800 number for your condition.
Should I retrieve it for you?
I was just reading-up on her Clergy in Warriors & Priests of the Realms, and they make fun of and belittle people with poor grooming habits!
I kid you not... thats just too funny. :D
They sound like the cast of Mean Girls.
See? Hypocrisy. Aren't her followers and clergy supposed to seek out beauty no matter what they look like. In my mind Sune and her Clergy should be 10% outer looks and 90% inner beauty and in giving that 10% I'm being pretty generous. I know I'm being clicheist(its a word in Manthingy's dictionary) but true beauty from [b] living, sentient beings [/b] should always be determined from what's inside of you. Not based so much on your looks. Outer beauty should be mainly left for inanimate objects(flowers, paintings etc...)
Just my
cause you know you censored want to.
we all need help with all the colored censoring do we.
it should be covered under a nda somewhere.
anyway, the only sunite lore I know of is what has been said in the F&A and F&P.
I'd also like to add to the existing lore: I have no characters for any thing as a follower of Sune.
so Selune, akadi, Corellon Larethian,Red Knight
Tempus, Torm,Bahamut, and Tymora take this thread..
:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :PI was just reading-up on her Clergy in Warriors & Priests of the Realms, and they make fun of and belittle people with poor grooming habits!
I kid you not... thats just too funny. :D
They sound like the cast of Mean Girls.
And well they should. If you can't care about yourself, how are you supposed to care about others afterall... :P
I was just reading-up on her Clergy in Warriors & Priests of the Realms, and they make fun of and belittle people with poor grooming habits!
I kid you not... thats just too funny. :D
They sound like the cast of Mean Girls.
Hello... Sune's Exarch here! It's necessary to sacrifice a great deal in the name of beauty. Blood, sweat and tears! One doesn't have alabaster skin and a tight body without a little work. And people of the middle ages who can't be bothered to bathe every once in a while? Well, we have to prompt them somehow toward self-care. Guilt is but one tool in our box... so to speak.
I'm going to stop now, because this is just going to give me early frown lines.
man, this is such a drag.....
Which brings us to another aspect of Sunite living (so to speak). Are there men in the clergy who dress up as women? Drag, transvestite/gender/etc. Maybe even go as far as magically change gender.
XD
Maybe even go as far as magically change gender.
XD
Well I'm not sure about Sunite's but I do know that a certain "chosen" of Mystra did it;)
Well I'm not sure about Sunite's but I do know that a certain "chosen" of Mystra did it;)
Well, that started off as a forced change, to teach humility etc ...
ShowSune/love is a lie. True beauty lies in the black void that is Shar. Everything fades to nothingness, eventually.
Hello... Sune's Exarch here! It's necessary to sacrifice a great deal in the name of beauty. Blood, sweat and tears! One doesn't have alabaster skin and a tight body without a little work. And people of the middle ages who can't be bothered to bathe every once in a while? Well, we have to prompt them somehow toward self-care. Guilt is but one tool in our box... so to speak.
I'm going to stop now, because this is just going to give me early frown lines.
So long as the guilt is done with the persons best interest at heart...
As to frown lines, they can add character and make a sweet face of youth blossom into the mystery and allure of an older and wiser woman. There's a lot to be said for frown lines if used to your best advantage.
So long as the guilt is done with the persons best interest at heart...
Clearly so, and always!
As to frown lines, they can add character and make a sweet face of youth blossom into the mystery and allure of an older and wiser woman. There's a lot to be said for frown lines if used to your best advantage.
Frown lines, no. Maybe smile lines, but there's no need to age prematurely. This isn't the Farmstead of Chauntea, it's Sune's Hall! ;)
ShowWell met Dark Brother/Sister? Or will that be your secret from The Nightseer?
Clearly so, and always!
Frown lines, no. Maybe smile lines, but there's no need to age prematurely. This isn't the Farmstead of Chauntea, it's Sune's Hall! ;)
Well, it never hurts to have a bit of that 'common touch', so they at least think you might have some idea what they're yabbering about and fall more easily into Sune's orbit.
Besides, need I remind you of the Sunite sacred sites out in the middle of nowhere, such as the grove north of Hill's Edge... If we can find beauty in nature, we can find beauty in the effects of said nature on our persons, for as the beauty of it touches our hearts, it also molds us into something better suited to appreciating it. ;)
Although I was quoting a passage from the source, it was taken out of context - this is the entire quote (taken from the Sune: Aesthete entry):
Taken from Warriors & Priests of the Realms
Aesthete's divide "ugly" people into three categories: those that are born with unattractive appearances, those whose looks have been ruined by wounds, and those who have bad grooming habits. Aesthetes pity the first people but try to bolster their self-image of inner beauty, do all they can to restore the outer visages of the second group of people, and publicly ridicule the third group of people. People will often find themselves the unwilling recipients of fashion advice, grooming tips, or general criticism.
Okay... maybe that wasn't a whole lot better. Who are THEY to decide who is 'attactive' and who is not?
Well, that started off as a forced change, to teach humility etc ...
Wow... I am IN SHOCK Therise hadn't addressed this, and Rinon must not be around.
Humility? HUMILITY? So being female is humiliating to you?
Just... WOW.
He was changed into a female to learn to RESPECT women, and understand what they must go through in order to be considered as 'good' as a man.
It was about RESPECT, not humility, and that is why the Old Geezer gets all the girls - he respects them, and a woman can TELL when they are being treated like an equal, and not just a piece of 'inferior' meat.
By allowing him to live as both sexes (and all four character classes... five if you include his psionics), he has gotten a unique perspective on the world, one in which he grants EVERYONE the respect they deserve, be they a 'lowly' farmer, or an ancient Red Wyrm.
For a Roleplayer, that was mighty un-PC of you. ;)
The female part was done by Mystra so that El could learn "how the other half lives", which is why he is so wise - only someone who has walked in everyone's shoes can see all points of view.
Sometimes you simply can't see the damage your doing until you've been on the 'other side'.
Wow... I am IN SHOCK Therise hadn't addressed this, and Rinon must not be around.
Humility? HUMILITY? So being female is humiliating to you?
Just... WOW.
*LOL* Yeah, I wasn't around. Anyway, I agree with you, being female isn't "humiliating", especially in a setting in which women aren't seen as second-class citizens.
Tyrisius (sp?) of Greek mythology spent some time as a woman, IIRC.
so in otherwords walk a mile in someone elses shoes??
Indeed.
I'm getting better though... anguish can only last so long...
Wow... I am IN SHOCK Therise hadn't addressed this, and Rinon must not be around.
Humility? HUMILITY? So being female is humiliating to you?
I dunno... I just thought this was sorta funny. Technically, teaching humility and causing humiliation aren't the same thing, and he only said "humility". Then again, I've never thought of being a woman as humiliating. Challenging and frustrating, sometimes, but men get that also, in their own way. *shrug*
Was Elminster particularly prideful or arrogant due to his masculinity? Not so sure on that one. Some people might think so, but I don't really see that. He did have a certain pride and arrogance about magic, which later became more playful.
He was changed into a female to learn to RESPECT women, and understand what they must go through in order to be considered as 'good' as a man.
It was about RESPECT, not humility, and that is why the Old Geezer gets all the girls - he respects them, and a woman can TELL when they are being treated like an equal, and not just a piece of 'inferior' meat.
I always thought Mystra made him (briefly) female because she wanted him to experience the essence of being female, to learn the secrets (her portfolio, in the sense of mystery) that only women know and feel. I thought of it more as an experience to transcend yet another mystery for Elminster... and not so much a lesson per se.
so in otherwords walk a mile in someone elses shoes??
Or to paraphrase Ed, to walk a mile in someone else's thigh high boots and naught else. ;)
I always thought Mystra made him (briefly) female because she wanted him to experience the essence of being female, to learn the secrets (her portfolio, in the sense of mystery) that only women know and feel. I thought of it more as an experience to transcend yet another mystery for Elminster... and not so much a lesson per se.
That was my take on it as well. I got the impression that the cleric stuff was also to teach him a sense of nurturing, which I purposefully seperate from the female part of it, to reinforce the stuff he learned from the elven fellow.
Was Elminster particularly prideful or arrogant due to his masculinity? Not so sure on that one. Some people might think so, but I don't really see that.
I never saw that either.
I always thought Mystra made him (briefly) female because she wanted him to experience the essence of being female, to learn the secrets (her portfolio, in the sense of mystery) that only women know and feel. I thought of it more as an experience to transcend yet another mystery for Elminster... and not so much a lesson per se.
That sounds about right to me, especially since Mystra herself was female.
Why do I bother.
It was to instill in him WISDOM, because neither sex is complete without the other. Having lived as both, Elminster can look at a problem the way no one else can, and identify with a person better then anyone else can.
He's Been a man and a women, a prince and a pauper, a warrior, a thief, a priest and mage. He's even been a psionicist... when someone turns to El and says "You don't underastand", or "You don''t know how I feel", he is the one person who can honestly say "Aye, lass... I surely do".
Elminster is wise because he doesn't think he's better then anyone else... becuase he knows he isn't, and because of that, he respects all life, and all beings, so long as they do not try to do harm to others.
It's not because a man is better then a woman, or woman is better then a man - they are two halves of a whole, and that makes Elminster the most complete man... or woman... to ever live. He can see the 'big picture' like no-one else can. He has been every class and every social level - he sees the world through their eyes. That is why Mystra put him through all those trials - he needed to GROW.
So men think it was to teach him humility, and women think it was bring him closer to Mystra... because girls are, like SO much better at men then that sort of stuff...
Why do I bother.
It was to instill in him WISDOM, because neither sex is complete without the other. Having lived as both, Elminster can look at a problem the way no one else can, and identify with a person better then anyone else can.
He's Been a man and a women, a prince and a pauper, a warrior, a thief, a priest and mage. He's even been a psionicist... when someone turns to El and says "You don't underastand", or "You don''t know how I feel", he is the one person who can honestly say "Aye, lass... I surely do".
Elminster is wise because he doesn't think he's better then anyone else... becuase he knows he isn't, and because of that, he respects all life, and all beings, so long as they do not try to do harm to others.
It's not because a man is better then a woman, or woman is better then a man - they are two halves of a whole, and that makes Elminster the most complete man... or woman... to ever live. He can see the 'big picture' like no-one else can. He has been every class and every social level - he sees the world through their eyes. That is why Mystra put him through all those trials - he needed to GROW.
The way it was stated in Elminster: The Making of a Mage made it seem like Mystra was saying that seeing the world through a woman's eyes makes it easier to see how magic is connected to life. So I don't think that it has anything to do with the gender of the poster, but more about the way each of us remembers what Mystra said to him.
If women are closer to Mystra and Magic, then I think they should cast spells as if they were one level higher then men.
After all, if a novel says they are, then it is canon, and the rules must be incorrect.
So men think it was to teach him humility, and women think it was bring him closer to Mystra... because girls are, like SO much better at men then that sort of stuff...
Weeeellll, yeah actually. Look at all the great male wizards in Western mythology, and they were all students of witches/sorceresses/wisewomen. From prehistoric times to the medieval age, until the Church came along, women were the carriers of history, the practitioners of medicine, the wise-folk of their tribes. Particularly for the Celtic/Gaul tribes, from which we eventually get stories like Arthur and the grail.
There are some cultures where men were the wise-folk for their communities, like many American Indian tribes and the shamanic cultures of the northern polar regions, but they're more practitioners of shaman-craft than witch-craft. Some cultures have a blend of shamanry and witchcraft, like the ancient Norse, but even there the God Odin "took up the runes" and learned sorcery from the Vanic goddess Freyja... and Odin was accused of being "ergi" (womanly) when he practiced the darkest of the magical arts: seidhr.
And in my view at least, "magic" as presented in D&D generally, and in Faerun specifically... it's mostly adapted from cultures that had witches rather than shamans (i.e. the "Western" cultures, rather than the polar cultures).
So yeah, women "know" magic, and men learn magic. :P
It was to instill in him WISDOM, because neither sex is complete without the other. Having lived as both, Elminster can look at a problem the way no one else can, and identify with a person better then anyone else can.
He's Been a man and a women, a prince and a pauper, a warrior, a thief, a priest and mage. He's even been a psionicist... when someone turns to El and says "You don't underastand", or "You don''t know how I feel", he is the one person who can honestly say "Aye, lass... I surely do".
I dunno... I see that as a bit of a stretch for Elminster. It's a good theory, but a bit of a stretch.
Having a taste of something doesn't mean you know and understand it on a deep level. It just means you've experienced it first hand.
All in all, what Therise said on the matter. I find myself agreeing with you a lot in this thread... its kind of creeping me out really. :P
Weeeellll, yeah actually. Look at all the great male wizards in Western mythology, and they were all students of witches/sorceresses/wisewomen. From prehistoric times to the medieval age, until the Church came along, women were the carriers of history, the practitioners of medicine, the wise-folk of their tribes. Particularly for the Celtic/Gaul tribes, from which we eventually get stories like Arthur and the grail.
There are some cultures where men were the wise-folk for their communities, like many American Indian tribes and the shamanic cultures of the northern polar regions, but they're more practitioners of shaman-craft than witch-craft. Some cultures have a blend of shamanry and witchcraft, like the ancient Norse, but even there the God Odin "took up the runes" and learned sorcery from the Vanic goddess Freyja... and Odin was accused of being "ergi" (womanly) when he practiced the darkest of the magical arts: seidhr.
And in my view at least, "magic" as presented in D&D generally, and in Faerun specifically... it's mostly adapted from cultures that had witches rather than shamans (i.e. the "Western" cultures, rather than the polar cultures).
So yeah, women "know" magic, and men learn magic. :P
Well put, and I agree. For the most part. I think this is why I've always played wizards and sorcerers female (except the one right now which is an old man with a missing hand). A woman spellcaster seems to evoke a more magical imagery (to me anyway). A man may command magic to do this bidding, but a woman doesn't have to. ;)
That desn't mean I'm wrong... it just means I need to keep looking. :P
Seriously, for a moment - I do indeed remember reading something by Ed that stated as much - I didn't jump to that conclusion myself. I had thought it was in the notes of The Annotated Elminster, which I thumbed-through quicky last night and couldn't find (which is what left me agravated -at myself, not you guys).
I'll have to pick through those Annotations more carefully later, and if not there, then I'll have to look through some of Ed's other replies about Elminster.
I just 'know' it was more about making him well-rounded (and testing him), then it was about "bringing him closer to Mystra". Not saying I can't be wrong - I could easily be mis-remembering something else entirely. If that proves the case, then I will also be more then glad to post the info that disproves me (I've done that before - I have no problem with being wrong... its a rather novel feeling for me :D ).
It was to instill in him WISDOM, because neither sex is complete without the other.
I think you're right, but I think Therise is also right.
As to instilling wisdom in El, I'd disagree on something of a semantical point. Wisdom, to me, isn't something you can teach or instill, its something you either have, or you don't. She may have been trying to teach a particular lesson to lead him to a particular conclusion, or to demonstrate a particular point to him, but I see wisdom as more of a process of life, rather than the function of a particular event. Like I said, a bit semantical, but I'm feeling oddly prickly at the moment for some reason.
Would Sune have divine prostitutes? Women and men who sleep with others to fiance and recruit for the church.
Thoughts?
I think Sharessan clerics tend to have a bit of a reputation in that regard, though. Given the closeness of the two cults, I would think that practices (and clergy) who focus more on the carnal side of love may eventually end up as a part of the Sharess faith anyway.
Would Sune have divine prostitutes? Women and men who sleep with others to fiance and recruit for the church.
Thoughts?
-Sune is about love, not sex. Sex is more in Sharess' area. Prostitution would be something of an aberration to her- where is the love and beauty in prostitution?
Its entirely possible that acolytes wishing to join the priesthood may need to go through this 'initiation period'.
I say 'escorts', because that is more what it is about with a Festhall 'Coindate'. The women do not have to have sex with the client - that is optional, but probably often happens if the man behaves himself in a gentlman-like manner. You must remember that the Realms aren't our world, and their attitudes about sex are more casual, including those concerning age differences and same-gender relations.
A Sunite Festhall escort will be there to provide good company and nothing more; like the perfect courtier, she is graceful, beautiful, elegant, and intelligent. She laughs at all of the clients jokes - even if they aren't very funny - and pays attention to him and only him all evening.
That would be her (or his) SOLE responsibility - the rest is up to how nice the client treats her in return (which could also mean a HEFTY charitable donation to the temple).
-Sune is about love, not sex.
I don't think it's quite that cut and dry. (What's the matter, LK? The Spellplague getting to ya? :P) This is like society insisting that "loving, virtuous mothers" have nothing to do with, uh, veggienal pensternation. I'm sure Sune has devout followers who chastely await their true loves as well as amorous enthusiasts who inspire sweet longings, flirtations, and plenty of evening cardio. ;)
Sex is more in Sharess' area.
I do agree, ultimately...with emphasis on your "more." (In 4e, for those interested, Sharess is an exarch of Sune...sort of an officialization of her status as a servitor in 3e.)
Prostitution would be something of an aberration to her- where is the love and beauty in prostitution?
I think aberrant is a bit strong, but you do make a good point. Cold, callous transactions don't have much to do with Sune's province of tender emotions. However, I'd say beauty could certainly be an element in a number of contexts regarding this issue. After all, great beauty can stir great passions, right? I doubt Sune (or her PR reps) would come down on either side of this issue definitively, except of course in cases where there is abuse and such going on.
I think beauty also accounts for the "Mean Girls" Clergy Hypocrisy mentioned earlier in the thread. Sune is not the goddess of Love Thy Neighbor /end. She's the goddess of love of many, many types...plus beauty, true love winning, sweeping romance, etc. Hotties with attitude and pretty people with problems seem par for the course, along with gallant knights and compassionate cosmetics salespersons, no? :D
Tree trunk:
Marius :inlove: SUNE
[INDENT]xoxo[/INDENT]
[INDENT]xoxo[/INDENT]
And I suppose, even Loviatar might have a piece of that, for extremists into fetish.
I'd tend towards MT's take on it myself... though I think Sune's church would have one of the best 'intelligence branches' out there from all the things stupid people tell them without thinking under intimate circumstances.
Interesting Notion, and it does play into her rather strange 'involvment' in the whole Tyr/Tymora/Helm affair.
That was bordering on political, and the fact that those gods were all willing to go along with that suggests Sune has more power then most people think.
And I think thats the point - no-one suspects the pretty courtier of being a super-spy. I can even see her working with Zehir in 4e (he's got Assassins instead of Serpents in FR... weird) as 'information brokers'.
This brings me to a point I was considering starting another thread about - I have been re-imagining FR's churchs becoming more like guilds by 1479 DR. Some obviously play right into this (like Zehiran Temples doubling as Assassin's Guilds), but there might be other, more subtle ones, like the Sunite Information network discussed above (although I'm not sure what sort of guild - some type that would provide professional courtiers, like Geisha?)
Thieves guilds would be Maskite Temples (or whoever has thievery now), Torm would have Mercenaries (guilds of professional fighters), Gond/Moradin would have the Tinkerer's Union, etc, etc...
I think during the 'dark years' right after the Spellplague, Temple Funds would have been running mighty low, and a lot of them could have turned their churches into businesses as well (probably at Waukeen's suggestion - she'd have banks, naturally).
Chauntea would be the Grower's Guild, Malar would have the Guild of Animal Husbandry (although Nobanion probably would have been better), etc...
I was just thinking about Eberron's Guilds and how they are associated with Dragonmarks - we got the half-assed Plaguescars, but it doesn't really capture all the coolness of the Dagonmarks. I don't want Plaguescars associated with Guilds - that would be too much of a copy - but we could still use some of that 'guild-goodness' in FR. I just though tying them to religions rather then markings was more Realmsian.
Any thoughts?
I'm not too sure about the guild thing, seems a bit too secular for my liking. Honestly I don't really see it as so much a function of her church, so much as a byproduct of its normal activities. Sort of like how they were one of the wealthier churches out there, though few people actually realized it. Massively underestimated, a lot like the church of Lliira, is how I'd tend to view them.
Picture thsi - when the Spellplague his, thousands - perhaps hundreds of thousands - are made homeless, and we have all sorts of problems with orphans, feeding people, disease, etc, etc...
The temples will be severly drained of resources rather quickly... except for the very smart Waukeener temples, that have been 'putting a little bit away each tenday' for a stormy day. well, mt friend, that day hath come...
They would have been in the best position, having the wealth and conncetions to help the most amount of people. Other churches would have seen this, and adjusted accordingly, building upon their own strengths.
I'm just seeing this as one possibility that may have occurred in a magical world during such a world-shaking crisis - one that certain churches already seemed pre-disposed to (most of Chauntea's larger temples were 'Harvest Houses' - massive collective farms run by the clergy). I'm just seeing something like this beocming the natural order rojecting forward the 1375 DR socio-economic climate.
The one BIG problem most of us have always had with FR is that it concentrated on the gods, rather then their churches, which is kinda stupid considering its a game setting. What I'm thinking about here is a way in which they can actually IMPROVE on past versions of FR, by detailing the various religions and what their day-to-day concerns are.
Personally, I think that would make one helluva a series of articles for the DDi - the Guild-Temples of the Realms.
As to instilling wisdom in El, I'd disagree on something of a semantical point. Wisdom, to me, isn't something you can teach or instill, its something you either have, or you don't. She may have been trying to teach a particular lesson to lead him to a particular conclusion, or to demonstrate a particular point to him, but I see wisdom as more of a process of life, rather than the function of a particular event. Like I said, a bit semantical, but I'm feeling oddly prickly at the moment for some reason.
Cacti are prickly, but I still love them.:D
I think you make a good point too (haha, prickly, makes a good point!).
Based on ancient love and fertility goddesses...
Would Sune have divine prostitutes? Women and men who sleep with others to fiance and recruit for the church.
Thoughts?
Yes, I think temple prostitutes for Sune are plausible. That's a good question for Ed, by the way, assuming he hasn't already addressed the subject.
Cacti are prickly, but I still love them.:D
I think you make a good point too (haha, prickly, makes a good point!).
Yes, I think temple prostitutes for Sune are plausible. That's a good question for Ed, by the way, assuming he hasn't already addressed the subject.
What? Which gods have sacred ladies and gentlemen of the evening? I can see Loviator and Shar having them for more nasty reasons.
Yes, I think temple prostitutes for Sune are plausible. That's a good question for Ed, by the way, assuming he hasn't already addressed the subject.
What about a Firefly's "Companion"-like profession? Sune's church could have a sanctioned Guild that hires out specially trained priests/priestesses to heal and love using many different methods and such.
Well, Waukeen's religion was always designed that way (which makes perfect sense). Her temples doubled as financial instituations, backing certain ventures, and keeping items for safe-keeping in their private vaults.
Waukeen Mutual! (wamu) heehee:D
Another one I can't believe I forgot - Kelemvor's temples would all double as Funeral Parlors - they would become the Mortician's guild (they sort-of do that anyway, in big cities like Waterdeep).
This way, nearly every religion becomes a businesss, and ever temple a store-front, which is much more accesable from a gamer's point-of-view, and allows certain religions (like Kelemvors) make more sense (after all, who's going to worship death? Just kill yourself and you automatically go to HIS realm!)
I think I my send in a query to the DDi... I see a ton of gaming potential in this, and its way better then any previous article or book that gave us divine stats and powers, or detailed divine realms (seriously, how many of us go to the Outer planes and visit gods? Thats USELESS info!)
Time to start detailing Religions, not their silly gods...
Waukeen Mutual! (wamu) heehee:D
:heehee Just saw this. Lol.
On this lovey-dovey information network being discussed: Does anyone remember Silkwhispers? Yeah, baby!
Loved 'em.I'm a bit hesitent to believe that Waukeen's church would be that influential, given the apparent collapse of civilization and the apparent destruction of so many safe roads. Hard for me to swallow that they'd become the new model of church in a PoL sort of world, given that economic prosperity and a lack of large-scale trade doesn't exactly go together well. There's lots of stuff in the 4e Realms that makes no sense to me though, so I'll just chalk this up to another one of those.
Maybe with the devastation brought on by the Spellplague (parallel to the current economic crisis), Waukeen Mutual was bought by -slash- merged under J.P. Morgan Bane. (I think Chase = Bane, they're pretty tyrannical, with their fees and all and they did buy wamu). ;)
With Banite protection, the bandits stay away from the roads for Waukeenian (sp?). lol
How about a nice church litany/hymn to go with the above silliness?
I'm a bit hesitent to believe that Waukeen's church would be that influential, given the apparent collapse of civilization and the apparent destruction of so many safe roads. Hard for me to swallow that they'd become the new model of church in a PoL sort of world, given that economic prosperity and a lack of large-scale trade doesn't exactly go together well. There's lots of stuff in the 4e Realms that makes no sense to me though, so I'll just chalk this up to another one of those.
Because part of 'financial success' is being frugal, and setting aside a little bit for a 'rainy day'. Waukeen's church covers not only trade, but financial success, which means planning ahead.
Not saying they foresaw anything like the Spellplague coming, but it is entirly possible they were the most economically prepared for such a catastrophic event.
For instance, all those 'Harvest Houses' built by the Chauntean church - suppose the Waukeeners were one of their 'backers'. What if there monetary loans werent repaid in gold, but rather warehouses filled with grain? Commodities are just as important as money in the market-place, and in times of disater, a loaf of bread is worth far more then a Goldpiece.
Waukeeners know that a Gold-based economy is only viable so long as there is a desire for Gold. But people can't eat Gold, and during the Spellplague, other things would have proven far more valuable - things that the Waukeeners would have been stock-piling. Is there a canon basis for that assumption? NO, there is not, but it does fit with their beliefs (to get ahead and succeed), and you can see that if you just apply it to certain RW cultures and business consortiums.
There was probably a massive inflation during the early Plague years, when things like a loaf of bread went for 50GP! Who would be in a better position then a church that not only has an abundance of Gold, but also warehouses loaded with valuable comodities that they've been sitting on.
Two facts help this theory -
#1 - Waukeen probably became VERY paranoid after the ToT. She realized "money isn't everything", and that wealth wasn't the only path to power. One needs to forsee possible future trends and prepare for them. Having been around for several disasterous periods of Torillian history, she would know exactly what would become valuable if the socio-economic structure would collapse overnight. Having had that 'rude awakening' thanks to Graz'zt, she realizes now that wealth can take other forms, and thus has been preparing for the next RSE to come along.
#2 - When the poop hit the fan in 1385 DR, a LOT of people died, or went insane, or were killed in later riots and looting. A lot of those people who would have had rich country estates, that hungry and angry mobs destroyed and ransacked. A lot of businesses within the cities would have been burned down and looted as well - many of FR's settlements depend on a company of 'war-Wizards' to help keep the peace, and without magic to help them any longer, most city and town gaurds would have been VERY hard-pressed to keep people calm. This means lots and LOTS of wealthy people would have been killed, sometimes for as little a reason as to raid their larders. Waukeen's church, in canon, already acts like a bank, with private vaults for the wealthy, to keep both gold and other valuables in.
So... who do you think got to keep all that wealth after entire noble clans were wiped-out?
Waukeen is a business woman first and formost - thats her 'thing' - we shouldn't think she's stupid, and I really doubt she would have ever let herself get 'caught with her pants down' ever again.
Her church, and Chautea's, would probably be in the best positions after the Spellplague hit, with kelemvor (all the death) following close behind, and Ilmater bringing up a close fourth (Suffering is his 'thing', so he probably danced his way through the Spellplague).
I also have a very neat idea for the Loviatarian Priesthood, but I'm going to wait on that and see if my proposal gets accepted.
My impression of the church of Waukeen is one that's relatively modern in its outlook, and considerably more successful, considering the idea that they've pretty much accomplished what even modern society hasn't, the idea of a standardized coin weight that trades relatively evenly across most nations. Call it convenience for gaming or metagaming, or whatever, but the societal implication is pretty serious if taken at face value.
Beyond that though, a simple look at geography is going to tell you that something very bad is happening economically, and that her church is doubtlessly hurting for it. Sembia. Geographically, its pretty much sitting aside not only major land routes, but also major sea access, and can effectively dictate trade flows throughout the Inner Sea, as well as between the Heartlands and the Inner Sea. Considering the tensions, and the fact that her church is effectively outlawed in Sembia, its creating a rather bad situation for trade and flow of wealth between eastern and western Faerun.
Sure, Turmish is still there, as is the Dragon Coast and Cormyr, but from what I recall, both rely on rather long and tenuous roads to move things from east to west. Cormyr should be thriving economically, as centers of trade shift from Sembia to there, but I don't recall any evidence of that being the case. Which doesn't really make much sense to me if Waukeen was a definite powerhouse of a church. If anything, 4e seems to have diminished her influence considerably, since her being strong doesn't mesh well with a PoL sort of world.
So could be that Shar is moving in on even Waukeen at this point. I seriously doubt that when the Shades moved on Sembia and outlawed the other churches, they just blithely let them take their assets with them as they kindly escorted them to the borders. So, my bet is on the Shades actually controlling a lot of that former Waukeenar wealth, and by extension, Shar and her church.
To be honest, one of the major reasons I find 4e so aggravating is they made these massive changes and didn't really seem to think the long term effects entirely through, not only just politically, but socially and economically as well.
That leaves Shade as the only real threat to trade in the west, and they pretty-much stay in Anauroch or concern themselves with Sembia and 'things east'.
That means goods would be traveling east-west from Cormyr along the Trader's Road, and East-west form Turmish along the Tethir road. Excet for the fact that brigandry (and monsters) probably had a field day during those early years of the Spellplague. No one would have been using the SoFS - the whole thing was pouring into the Underdark for several years!
Note, however, that didn't seem to effect anything at all.
Anyway, I'm just seeing the Waukeen church as being a stabilizing factor in the Realms (and we should ignore our own curent banking troubles - that was based on the stupidity and greed of men, not the insight of a goddess).
Besides, I'm using that as a basis for spinning some interesting developments for 4e FR - something you have already admitted to being completely unintersted in...
So whats your point?
To be honest, one of the major reasons I find 4e so aggravating is they made these massive changes and didn't really seem to think the long term effects entirely through, not only just politically, but socially and economically as well.
That is what these forums are for. We get to figure stuff out for them. ;)
Oh, yes, and excellent point there Nightseer. :D
Just because I imagine my Realms that way, doesn't mean you, or anyone else for that matter, has to follow that path.
There are no 'canon' realms anymore, except in the novels. Your world is your world, so turn it into whatever you want.
I have this whole over-storyline on how the churches of the Realms responded to the Spellplague and the 'dark Years' that followed, and some of them behaved in very surprising ways.
First one must remember there really isn't such a thing as an evil god. Some, like Bane, may have doctrines that appear to be evil, but that is really a matter of opinion. Even Cyric isn't evil - he's just insane.
Neither are gods 'good' - they do what they must to further their portfolios, and there are PLENTY of instances where goodly churches went to war against each other - sometimes different sects within one religion! (Ilmater comes to mind)
So if we look at it that way - that gods are just super-powerful, enigmatic beings with their own agendas, and not mortals (yes, DO ignore everything abut them in novels... PLEASE), we can see that some of them may have gone in very strange directions following the Spellplague.
Think about it - Umberlee would have been doing everything in her power to promote seafaring and trade (which in turn promotes piracy). She's grown rather accustomed to all the offerings she is given before every voyage, and she sure as hell wouldn't want to give that up. If the Spellplague stopped people from sailing the sea, even for a little while, that would have put a major dent in her power-base. Who's walking into her temples to pray, when no-ones plying the waves?
Some mighty odd alliances could have formed - "Politics makes strange bedfellows".
Also, all of this gods were used to using the Weave as an easy interface to grant their clergy spells - an interface that is no more. They are now required to grant spells directly, which means they will be keeping a closer eye on their priesthoods. This could mean 'tighter reins' in some cases (a strict adherence to doctrine), or in other cases, a rather shabby control that leads to each church becoming its own sect, with heresies abounding. I could see Greater Gods tighting their control, and lesser gods loosing it.
Oh, yes, and excellent point there Nightseer. :D
Thanks.
After reading the Rob Heinsoo article, it made me think that the developers just wanted to make a fun playable game system. The lore is left to the dm. People got spoiled (me included) with books full of lore. That innkeeper has nothing to do with playing a game, so the dm gets to make him up. The developers probably wanted games to start at the front entrance of some Dungeon at 1st level. I know I would love a good honest Undermountain book for 4th edition. 4th edition characters rock at 1st level. In 3rd edition I would be scared to get within 500 feet of Undermountain at 1st level. The developers got that right this time.
In 3rd edition I would be scared to get within 500 feet of Undermountain at 1st level.
-As it should be.
:coolcthul
EDIT: That really doesn't look like someone getting their brain eaten, does it?
Think about it - Umberlee would have been doing everything in her power to promote seafaring and trade (which in turn promotes piracy). She's grown rather accustomed to all the offerings she is given before every voyage, and she sure as hell wouldn't want to give that up. If the Spellplague stopped people from sailing the sea, even for a little while, that would have put a major dent in her power-base. Who's walking into her temples to pray, when no-ones plying the waves?
Where does Umberlee fall in terms of the Sovereignty? Are they good for her business or bad?? They don't seem to be meant as allies.
Some mighty odd alliances could have formed - "Politics makes strange bedfellows".
This sounds mighty interesting.
Do you have any ideas already for your campaign/theory/piece? Bane & Waukeen allying against Shar in the central regions might make good story. [Edit: Oh, that's what you mean in post 110, isn't it angelus_obscura? :embarrass I read Bane as Bank.] Sharess/Sune and Talos against the elemental overlords in Calimshan?? Hmm...maybe too much of a stretch.:coolcthul
EDIT: That really doesn't look like someone getting their brain eaten, does it?
Actually, it looked pretty good to me.
or :headexplo might work too, if you pretend those are brains being sucked out. (Eiww. :yuck:coolcthul
:coolcthul
:headexplo
...But back to Sune:
Does no one here remember the Silkwhispers from (IIRC) Warriors & Priests of the Realms?? Please say it isn't so!
I think it was a character "kit" for Sunite seducers & seductresses, spies, and secret agents.-As it should be.
:coolcthul
EDIT: That really doesn't look like someone getting their brain eaten, does it?
Looks more like his head is being tickled. :D
-As it should be.
:coolcthul
EDIT: That really doesn't look like someone getting their brain eaten, does it?
I think I'd use this:
:coolcthul
Ok I retract the Evil and Seven Deadlies part of my point. Doesn't Sune represent the epitome of Beauty and love? How can true beauty have a flaw and still be true beauty? A
RF and the rest
I will always accept
I liken it to the old definition of the appearance trait in WoD. (They got rid of the appearance trait though...)
Anyways, once a score of 10 was reached (maybe earlier but I don't think so and 10 was the absolute maximum for an ability and far exceeded that which was humanly possible...) the physical beauty of the creature who possessed such a high score was so great that the creature's appearance shifted according to the perception of the viewer so that any viewer (even multiple ones at the same time) would see the creature as what it (the viewer) believed was the most physically appealing form.
That is how I believe the physical appearance of a goddess of beauty would be. Any witness to the goddess, in this case Sune, would see a vision of what it considered to be the most stunningly beautiful being it's poor little brain could grasp. (Of course, there is nothing to explicitly limit this to a human or even female form...It could be anything.)
Maybe with the devastation brought on by the Spellplague (parallel to the current economic crisis), Waukeen Mutual was bought by -slash- merged under J.P. Morgan Bane. (I think Chase = Bane, they're pretty tyrannical, with their fees and all and they did buy wamu). ;)
With Banite protection, the bandits stay away from the roads for Waukeenian (sp?). lol
Ooops...I read "Bane" as "Bank" above and must have glossed over "Banite" at the end. :embarrass I've edited my other post where I repeat your Bane & Waukeen alliance suggestion. Good idea, btw!
That's right. W&PotR has Aesthetes and Silkwhispers as priest kits for Sune. "The Aesthetes are a sacred branch of Sune's clergy, devoted to healing disfiguring wounds, removing scars, and promoting the church's ideals of physical beauty." and "Silkwhispers are matchmakers, etiquette experts, and seducers or seductresses. The latter functions are important for roles such as spies or negotiators."
Yay!
Thanks for finding some quotes on those! (My copy is boxed up.) The Lady Firehair is obviously watching over this thread. :DI liken it to the old definition of the appearance trait in WoD. (They got rid of the appearance trait though...)
Anyways, once a score of 10 was reached (maybe earlier but I don't think so and 10 was the absolute maximum for an ability and far exceeded that which was humanly possible...) the physical beauty of the creature who possessed such a high score was so great that the creature's appearance shifted according to the perception of the viewer so that any viewer (even multiple ones at the same time) would see the creature as what it (the viewer) believed was the most physically appealing form.
Thought that was only through mummy alchemy... might have changed it though, you never know. I stopped paying attention towards the end there...
Anyhow, I did like those attribute "bonuses" they listed in that Mummy book.
Shar should still be expelled though:P
Thought that was only through mummy alchemy... might have changed it though, you never know. I stopped paying attention towards the end there...
Anyhow, I did like those attribute "bonuses" they listed in that Mummy book.
Actually, it was also attributed to a succubus that was in the original Chicago setting from the first edition. I first read it back around '92 or '93.
There was also a module, I believe it was 'The Ascension of Caine', where a mummy (I think, or perhaps multiple ones...) used some magic to boost most of an early generation (Malkav? Again, I am having trouble remembering back that far...) vampire's stats and abilities up around the 10 area and then proceeded to have the vampire masquerade as Caine who had returned to rule the vampires...
Anyway, it was an original description for how the appearance attribute was to be interpreted once it reached such epic levels, as far as I can remember. But, I played vampire around '92 without actually owning a copy back then...
I think I'd use this:
:coolcthul
Even better would be this, possibly, hehe:
:coolcthul
This sounds mighty interesting.
Scenario one - A small village has recently been atacked by several recurring Orc-raids; the Orcs of the North are having a field day now that wizardsa are no-longer powerful. Then a group of bandits - Jones' raiders comes around and startsto push the townfold around, stealing their stuff and having their way with their woman (think old-west bandit gangs here). The townsfolk can't do a lot about it, since most of the men-folk were killed fighting Orcs, and only the wounded, young, and old are left. After a couple of weeks of these jerks pusshing the folks around, a second group of evil-looking men ride into town - ones wearing the uniforms of Zhentil keep (Zhentil keep fell, and their army was dispersed).
The bandits face the Zhents and tell them 'this is our town, get the hell out, and the Zhents turn-around and slaughter the outlaws without even a single casualty (real soldiers vs braggarts and bullies).
Now the townfolk are eying-up the Xhentissh soldiers, and one old-timer says "You might as well not have bothered - we have nothing left of avlue". The commander tries to hide his sneer as he says "You still have your lives - I would think you still found them valuable" (he's a little annoyed, because the villagers aren't acting grateful). He then turn s to his men - thirty in all - andselects five to 'stay behind', and selects a seargent from the group to be the town's 'new sherriff'.
The people just look at each other, as the other twentyfive Zhentish soldiers ride north, where they have heard the Orcs are still terrorizing certain towns. The 'Sherriff' asked about a building that has been abandoned, and they are pointed to one the gang had taken over (after killing the owner).
Over the next few week, they turn the building into a 'Office of Costabulary', includsing one room becoming a makeshift jail.... none of the people knopw what to make of it, but they haven't done anything bad yet, and they always pay their tab, even if they are a bit stnad-offish.
By the end of the year the townsfolk have become more friendly to the soldiers (who have fended off other ne'er do wells several times), and vice-versa, although they have created some rules, like curfews (for "their own protection"). Several times the soldiers roster has been changed, as other groups of Zhets have come through the are on patrol. All this time they have taken no money or property, funding themselves by confiscating stuff from the bandits and Orcs they kill.
Eventually, they let it be known that the 'Constabulary Office' is also a house of worship, and that their god - Bane the Peacekeeper would like to spread his message to them, if they care to hear it (services are held every tuesday night at sundown - bring a dish for the pot-luck!)
See what I did there? The god of tyrrany just became THE force upholding law in part of the north. As long as the Zhentish soldiers (who are mercenries - this is just their 'permanent gig') are behaving themselves, they people begin to trust, and even rely, on them. Of course the temple-jails will take donations, and of course eventually folks who don't donate will be frowned upon... an perhaps their property won't be watched nearly as well as that of other, more 'charitable' townsfolk.
But thats just the way of the world, eh? Nothing evil about that...
Scenario 2: Loviatarans - what we have here is a fairly-well organized group who are damn-good with a whip and instilling pain (and fear). After the DoM (Death of Mystra - we need an Amagram), Loviatar instructs her clergy to 'punish the wicked', by taking down anyone doing any looting or other law-breaking acts. Now, we know Loviatar isn't exactly Miss 'Law-abiding citizen', but she also isn't stupid. With mages gone and most priesthoods struggling to figure out how to cast spells again, the town gaurds are in an wawful pickle. Large cites like waterdeep and neverwinter have mass food-shortages (Spellplagues not only wiped-out large swaths of cropland, but also killed (directly or indirectly) a lot of priests and farmers that have been running those out-lying famers.
There are riots in the streets, and Waterdeep's harbor is put to flame. Baldur's Gate is bursting at the seems, and waves of refugees have left large parts of the city completely lawless.
In step the punishers - at first unsanctioned (they were vigilantes), they would have gone throught he strets and whipped (to death!) anyone caught destroying property or causing vilence against others. The city leadership might be at-first put-off by this unwanted and often bloody help, but as sections of the city are slowly becoming more controlled (through fear), they realize the potential there, and 'deputize' the Loviatarrans to 'restore order' by any means neccessary (desperate times call for desperate measures).
By the end of the first decade, most of the chaos of the DoM has passed. The Punishers no-longer walk about openly on the streets - the local gaurd have things well in-hand. No... there job has become more sinister, and at the same time more useful, to those in-charge. And so, the Guild of Penitence is born, better known as The Torturers.
Loviatarran Priests are sanctioned to conduct investigations (like secret-police, with Sunite Intelligence feeding them info), extract vital information from enemies of the state, and 'punish the wicked'.
What I did there was take the FR church of Loviatar and turn it into a PG13 version of the Mord' Sith. Crazy, leather-wearing women in 7 inch spiked heels who really, REALLY enjoy punishing 'evil doers' (or anyone the local gov't wants to label an 'evil doer' to their own ends). Some strange folks may think it would be 'fun' to spend a night being punished... but such only happens once. These women do NOT 'play' - they mean business, and most of their 'clients' go home missing pieces... if they go home at all.
Scenario 3: How the magnanimous have fallen...
By forcing the various churches into useful niches, they become better game-elements (since we are creating a darker, grimmer FR here). On the other hand, some may have gone the other way - the Ilmateri church I could see splitting down two lines. The 'sufferers', who are a group mostly composed of beggers, cripples, and lepers, who become a disgusting sort of begger-cult. The other group would ater to the ill - and be running Hospices all over the place. These hospicess would have started out like ''field hospitals' set-up all over the place following the Spellplague (which the zealots would call the 'cleansing Fire') and grown into a group of care-givers for those suffering from the after-effcts of the Plague, including folks who were BADLY disfigured and changed by Spellscars (and there may even be a very dark reason for this care - the priests ENJOY being around all this suffering).
So what you end up with there is a begger-cult and a group of twisted individuals who provide care for the ill and injured, NOT because they want to cure them... oh no... but rather to be around them and continue 'the care'. While Neophytes and lower-level clergy may actually want to help folks, those at the top know there's no money in curing illness... only soothing continued pain. Over time most become jaded - or leave - and we are left with a religion that has fallen far from original purpose.
Actually, it was also attributed to a succubus that was in the original Chicago setting from the first edition. I first read it back around '92 or '93.
There was also a module, I believe it was 'The Ascension of Caine', where a mummy (I think, or perhaps multiple ones...) used some magic to boost most of an early generation (Malkav? Again, I am having trouble remembering back that far...) vampire's stats and abilities up around the 10 area and then proceeded to have the vampire masquerade as Caine who had returned to rule the vampires...
Anyway, it was an original description for how the appearance attribute was to be interpreted once it reached such epic levels, as far as I can remember. But, I played vampire around '92 without actually owning a copy back then...
I completely forgot about that succubus from Chicago by Night actually... they did mention something to that effect now that I think about it. No idea what the Ascension of Caine thing is, sounds like it was from the Gehenna period, which is when I stopped paying attention.
As to how they were supposed to be interpreted, they had a couple of competing versions of that, even within the same game. I don't recall any of them actually being the same unfortunately... and trust me, I've gone back through my collection, which has most stuff up to the Year of Revelations in it, except for Wraith stuff, which I never much cared for, and I've never been able to find that much coherent stuff on the matter outside of Mummy.
Scenario one - Bane the Peacekeeper.
Interesting idea. I did something similar with a deity I introduced called the Elderdark, who was more interested in law than he was evil, to the point where his 'crusaders' would often work with and like paladins. He was evil though, as were his followers, and more than willing to do stuff the goodly types just wouldn't because it needed doing.
Scenario 2: Loviatarans
Thought it was Loviatans myself... oh well, doesn't matter much. Amusingly enough, I did the same thing with her myself, only in service to the Elderdark. Except I had them form more of a judiciary system, with the priestesses working like circuit judges and forming the foundation of the penal system. Though they did operate, as did the Elderdark's people, under the idea of come willingly, or don't come at all. If you weren't faithful, you were out of bounds unless you broke the law, then they got to do whatever they wanted to with you.
Interestingly, I also introduced a philosopher of her faith, who also happened to be a painter, who argued that Loviatar was also a teacher, since pain taught us to avoid injury and actually served to protect us. She was present in every birth to help us appreciate the gift of live all the more, that she helped us cope with Shar's machinations by giving us pain to focus on when her loss came calling, that she taught the young the valuable lessons that led to them becoming strong and wise adults. She was advocating the idea that pain led to wisdom, and should be viewed as a gift that Loviatar gave to help us survive in the world, to warn us of danger. Let me tell you, that one screwed with my players minds at first... but Thay after the Zulkir's fall was a very interesting place to be.
Scenario 3: How the magnanimous have fallen...
So essentially you turned them one side into really extremist Franciscans, and the other into Mother Teresa's order who's name I just blanked on... well, I can't say I ever saw that much difference between Ilmatari and catholocism, apart from the whole monotheistic thing, so it works for me. A bit too dark for me, but so long as you're happy with it.
I think I see where you're going with this, but to be honest, that's pretty much the way I've always viewed the various Churches in my head, as that's the only thing that really makes sense to me in a pantheistic (for lack of a better word) society that tends to be cooperative yet individualistic. With spells being present, I figured that just talking the talk wasn't enough... the clerics had to go out there and get their hands dirty accomplishing their deity's goals and tending to their portfolio. Head in the clouds philosophy and theological contemplation are great, but I don't see them being as prevalent when the deity in question is there to answer questions on some level, or really considered that useful by most folks, even among the clergies. I just see most Faerunian faiths as being far more pragmatic affairs for some reason.
By forcing just about everyone to deal with every church at some point or other, they all become equally useful and sensical.
Also, by giving them 'official' duties, we also create a logical reason for these temples to be within most normal cities.
I completely forgot about that succubus from Chicago by Night actually... they did mention something to that effect now that I think about it. No idea what the Ascension of Caine thing is, sounds like it was from the Gehenna period, which is when I stopped paying attention.
As to how they were supposed to be interpreted, they had a couple of competing versions of that, even within the same game. I don't recall any of them actually being the same unfortunately... and trust me, I've gone back through my collection, which has most stuff up to the Year of Revelations in it, except for Wraith stuff, which I never much cared for, and I've never been able to find that much coherent stuff on the matter outside of Mummy.
Ascension of Caine was a campaign included in the original Berlin by Night, it came out in '95, well before the Gehenna period, although it was aa Gehenna hoax.
I should have known when they sent me to that temple to pick-up the Ark of the Covenant I was being had...
:PYou would think I would have figured it out...
-I used to live near there, and my dad and uncle still does.
-Sune might do some good there. I only recently found out that Hasidic women shave their heads and wear wigs!
Scenario 2: Loviatarans - what we have here is a fairly-well organized group who are damn-good with a whip and instilling pain (and fear). After the DoM (Death of Mystra - we need an Amagram), Loviatar instructs her clergy to 'punish the wicked', by taking down anyone doing any looting or other law-breaking acts. Now, we know Loviatar isn't exactly Miss 'Law-abiding citizen', but she also isn't stupid. With mages gone and most priesthoods struggling to figure out how to cast spells again, the town gaurds are in an wawful pickle. Large cites like waterdeep and neverwinter have mass food-shortages (Spellplagues not only wiped-out large swaths of cropland, but also killed (directly or indirectly) a lot of priests and farmers that have been running those out-lying famers.
There are riots in the streets, and Waterdeep's harbor is put to flame. Baldur's Gate is bursting at the seems, and waves of refugees have left large parts of the city completely lawless.
In step the punishers - at first unsanctioned (they were vigilantes), they would have gone throught he strets and whipped (to death!) anyone caught destroying property or causing vilence against others. The city leadership might be at-first put-off by this unwanted and often bloody help, but as sections of the city are slowly becoming more controlled (through fear), they realize the potential there, and 'deputize' the Loviatarrans to 'restore order' by any means neccessary (desperate times call for desperate measures).
By the end of the first decade, most of the chaos of the DoM has passed. The Punishers no-longer walk about openly on the streets - the local gaurd have things well in-hand. No... there job has become more sinister, and at the same time more useful, to those in-charge. And so, the Guild of Penitence is born, better known as The Torturers.
Loviatarran Priests are sanctioned to conduct investigations (like secret-police, with Sunite Intelligence feeding them info), extract vital information from enemies of the state, and 'punish the wicked'.
What I did there was take the FR church of Loviatar and turn it into a PG13 version of the Mord' Sith. Crazy, leather-wearing women in 7 inch spiked heels who really, REALLY enjoy punishing 'evil doers' (or anyone the local gov't wants to label an 'evil doer' to their own ends). Some strange folks may think it would be 'fun' to spend a night being punished... but such only happens once. These women do NOT 'play' - they mean business, and most of their 'clients' go home missing pieces... if they go home at all.
Crack that whip!
Scourge Maiden of Loviatar
Scourge Maiden of Loviatar
Ascension of Caine was a campaign included in the original Berlin by Night, it came out in '95, well before the Gehenna period, although it was aa Gehenna hoax.
Heh, figures. One of maybe four books I don't have. Never wanted to get into the European elder games, as I generally felt the story would fall flat and come off like me being a prick to my players. Never got much into Dark Ages for that reason actually, beyond the whole "more pale and tragic than thou" aspect of it.
Now Europe was certainly a place that needed some Sune to cheer things up a bit back in the day... just to be slightly on topic. :D
Talking about monstrousities and ugly...
Furthering the societal function of clergies in FR I would like to add to the discussion the clergy of Talona in the role as active medicin men and women to the local area's they are active in.
Talona's priestesses and priests carry diseases in themselves and eventually become immune to them. They are the early experimenters in the medicinal field of creating vaccins, i.e. they are creating antidotes and cures for strong diseases with themselves as the guinypigs. That's pretty selfless and can be seen as an honorable practise.
A communities hit by large scaled epidemic events would be forced to knock on talona's church doors for they would likely be the first to have common (i.e. nonmagical) cures for largescale diseases. Her influence in the south of fearun (where diseases can spread easier due to favorable environmental conditions and more crowded living conditions) will be largely attributed to this important function her clergy has over there.
As to that take on Talona... not too sure on it, but if it works for you, go for it. Personally, she's just about the only deity I could think of who might actually have a legitimate reason for hooking up with Shar in the short term.
:coolcthul
EDIT: That really doesn't look like someone getting their brain eaten, does it?
He's having his head tickled/massaged.
AOL? Eww... why even bother.
I did say "briefly".
The former Primogen was assassinated by 'persons unknown', and I was asked (mostly because my name was Nos4@2 back then) to be the new Primogen.
During my 'acceptance speech', I, too, was assassinated by mysterious forces (of my own creation). I basically interrrupted myself with a "What? Who are you? Nooooooo....", and then deleted my account and never signed on again.
I am LEGEND. :D
As to that take on Talona... not too sure on it, but if it works for you, go for it. Personally, she's just about the only deity I could think of who might actually have a legitimate reason for hooking up with Shar in the short term.
I agree - I'm not sure what to do with her, but that was an interesting take. I like the basis - that her priests would develop immunities to just about everything - making their blood (and immunities) highly valuable.
I still like her better as a Cult, though - probably people who have survived mass-exterminations by plague, and find themselves somehow 'blessed' by the goddess of disease. (When I say 'Blessed', I'm thinking more like "driven insane by the all the death and carnage they have witnessed"). I can see people feeling the need to pray to her for lifting epidemics, but I really can't see any way to spin her in a positive light (other then what Suin has done there).
I think to better capture the "temptingly expedient" evil route--as when the vulnerable border town embraces Bane's tyranny as a catalyst for order and stability (minus a few things like freedom and happiness)--perhaps Talona's followers might offer "miraculous" products like pesticides, weed killer, rodent killer, and perhaps eventually things like disease and biological warfare options. (All with a fantasy setting feel of course, i.e., no infomercials!)
Sunites ::cough:: might suspiciously appreciate these things that keep their romantic gardens free of moment-ruining pests.
Disease comes from Talona - depending on her for 'cures' is almost like asking Shar for some light.
This other view of her activities - selling the cures after causing the problem in the first place - is definately something I can see happening. In fact, I would say she has NO permanent temples within settlements (who'd allow them?), but rather, a few weeks after an epidemic breaks out, Taloner 'Plague Carts' show up - rolling temples to Talona, who's priests can "give relief from illness... all for a mere pittance".
This has the familar ring of Shar to it.This company really needs to get its priorites straight.
Sune is about how love can lead you to the truest path of your heart's desire... sometimes even if you don't know it yet yourself. Love doesn't immediately equal sex, at least... not in the truest relationships built upon the love that Sune champions... but it is the beginning point of a sexual aspect for the Realms.
Sharess, the Dancing Lady, represents the notion of fulfillment through hedonism or other bodily and spiritual pleasures... in this case, sex. But it's important to note that some of these experiences can only be enjoyed "to their fullest" [as is the dogma of Sharess] when you've built it up from something else. In the case of sex, this is love, and the notions Sune embodies. Sex with someone you love is infinitely more fulfilling and sensually pleasurable than when it is just something transitory... something that is satisfied at that very moment.
From which, we come to Lliira... she respects the liberty of love and freedom... which through sex... is the end point. The love you share with someone whereupon no care or frustration would dare disturb. It is built upon the fulfilment of sensual desire, through Sharess, which is the result of truest love... through Sune.
So let me get this straight. We got Sune as the goddess of sex + Talona as the bringer of disease. So put them together to create STD's? Is that right?
:heehee Hilarious. After thinking about it, though, you could probably say Anything + Talona = Disease, couldn't you? ;)
Interesting take there marius... very interesting.
Is this sarcasm??
Don't make me go get some of those noxious products! I can hear the music from the Talona cart right now. (They always play it when they drive around the neighborhood.)Sune is not "the goddess of sex" specifically.
Ack...you should have said "explicitly." It was right there for the taking! :D
Sune is not "the goddess of sex" specifically.
:P. I know. So we subsitute Sharess(is that one of Exarchs?) And the equation still equals the same conclusion.
And if its done right(not trying to be crude here) then two people can possibly achieve a combining of their souls that surpasses the mortal bounds of love and beauty and pleasure and come very near to what Sune experiences every second of her existence. And doesn't that fall under Sune and her true clergy followings?
Ack...you should have said "explicitly." It was right there for the taking! :D
Yeah, I should have. Darn.
:P. I know. So we subsitute Sharess(is that one of Exarchs?) And the equation still equals the same conclusion.
Well, Sharess doesn't explicitly have "sex" as a portfolio either. As far as I'm aware, no god does.
Ok ok. Joke gone bad.Nope, not sarcasm at all. I think its a very interesting take on her, that I hadn't really considered before.
Hehe. :embarrass
Well, Sharess doesn't explicitly have "sex" as a portfolio either. As far as I'm aware, no god does.
Flawless execution, m'lady. ;)
I believ the "Knockin' Boots" portfolio belongs to Willsmith, God of Fressh Princes... and other obnoxious nobility.
Ah, yes. Famed for his rivalry with the goddess of "Walkin' Boots" Nancysinatra and her exarch Jessicasimpson.
Does anyone remember what the book was for Sune in Prayers from the Faithful? I think it was a book...in that book...or maybe it was a magical sash?? The only thing I remember from there off the top of my head is the Testament of Vraer...uber-awesome name for a Kelemvorite tome.
Speaking of sashes, I just noticed that there is no name listed for Sune's "favored weapon." We should come up with some possibililities in case someone is in need, no? :angelhide
I hate it when divine relics fall through time protals that way. :P
Also, Shar's Relic - that sexy lingerie-thingy - really would have been better-off with Sharess, or even Sune or Loviatar. I just don't see it as something Shar would have as her 'holy book'. Of course, Ed I'm sure portrays her quite a bit differently then the apocalyptic God of the End of Times.
Actually, the lore in that particular tome was probably amongst the finest ever written for FR - probably the apex of the Realms as a commercial settting, IMHO.
Its been all down-hill from there.
I forgot about that one... time to go through it again...
Thanks, Stigs... I got something to go to bed with tonight. :D