Damn. You're more of a viper than I am. :D
Has anybody here read or is anyone currently reading Swordmage yet?
-YES!!!!!!!!
:lightbulb :evillaugh 
:angelhide 
I got it yesterday and got half-way through it last night at work!!! I love my Job. 18D:D
-YES!!!!!!!!
18D:D
Turd!!!
I want that job!!!
Turd!!!
I want that job!!!
-I know its great! In the last week I have caught up on my LK homework assignments on reading Realms novels.:P Sorry boss couldn't resist.
And I am getting paid too.:D Now if only I could Read the Elves Of Faerun on the computer at work.
18D
LK, this has simply gone too far.
Then again, for some of you, that is a good thing
I found it to be well written and quite enjoyable, though I don't feel like a whole lot has changed in the realms (at least not in the Moonsea where the book takes place).
That's what we need to hear.
LK, this has simply gone too far.
-It's taken a life of it's own.
-That said, what the hell is a Swordmage? Basically, a Spellsword that only uses magic to augment his/her martial abilities?
-It's taken a life of it's own.
-That said, what the hell is a Swordmage? Basically, a Spellsword that only uses magic to augment his/her martial abilities?
Seems to be that way. He doesn't seem to wear armor in the book, instead using his spells to provide a form of all day basic armor and can bring up short term stronger protections.
The one in the book fights with a single one handed weapon (an elven backsword, he calls it) and leaves the other hand free to cast spells.
On the first page of the book, it states Geran (the Swordmage) was trained by a bladesinger from Myth Drannor, but the book never refers to Geran as a bladesinger. Take from what what you will, lol. I think it's likely bladesinger will be an elven paragon path that swordmages can take, but I could be wrong.
-Ugh...
Well I do recall one passage late in the book where it says something about hurling small balls of fire towards his enemies that dazed them or something...I could look it up in more detail when I get home. I don't have the book here at work.
I don't think the Swordmage is gonna be a true 50/50 gish though if that's what you're looking for
Maybe by taking wizard multiclassing feats. He does use a spellbook though.http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1028991
Well I do recall one passage late in the book where it says something about hurling small balls of fire towards his enemies that dazed them or something...I could look it up in more detail when I get home. I don't have the book here at work.
I don't think the Swordmage is gonna be a true 50/50 gish though if that's what you're looking for
-No, I am "ugh"ing the (possible)Bladesinger connection.
Personally I like bladesingers, but I don't a base class like Swordmage should be so restricted.
I finished it last night. I found it to be well written and quite enjoyable, though I don't feel like a whole lot has changed in the realms (at least not in the Moonsea where the book takes place).
Then again, for some of you, that is a good thing
-Ding, ding, ding!!!:D
18D;)
Sounds like a Bladesinger to me--especially with a reference to Myth Drannor. Looks like we may get back into that cross culture society it once was and find that everything ends up humanized in some way.
Yeah this particular character is human, though he lived in Myth Drannor for 10 years so I don't know if he's an exception or the rule.
Yeah this particular character is human, though he lived in Myth Drannor for 10 years so I don't know if he's an exception or the rule.
I'm finishing up on the last book of the Twilight Giants trilogy before I jump into this one, so I can have no true conviction yet, but I doubt that, if you are going to introduce a new class/archetype--not to mention a new world--to your audience, that you would want to explain it as something unique to a character and not a standard of what is to come. Just seems a bit silly--if not wrong--to do.
So gonna make a Hin bladesinger if that's the case...
-Though, thinking about it, it's not that bad, actually. The Human isn't actually a Bladesinger. He's a Swordmage. That demonstrates that no matter how much they are taught the Elven Bladesinger arts, they just can't properly hear the bladesong.
-Though, thinking about it, it's not that bad, actually. The Human isn't actually a Bladesinger. He's a Swordmage. That demonstrates that no matter how much they are taught the Elven Bladesinger arts, they just can't properly hear the bladesong.
True. Though...is there something a human can be that other races are simply barred from being able to do?
Honest Q. I mean, you do have Netheril. Since when can't humans accomplish such feats?
-Though, thinking about it, it's not that bad, actually. The Human isn't actually a Bladesinger. He's a Swordmage. That demonstrates that no matter how much they are taught the Elven Bladesinger arts, they just can't properly hear the bladesong.
This is exactly what I was thinking while reading the book. He didn't seem to be nearly as graceful as a full on bladesinger. Then again he just may not be experienced enough yet. Seemed strong enough though. I look forward to seeing how bladesingers and swordmages interact.
This is exactly what I was thinking while reading the book. He didn't seem to be nearly as graceful as a full on bladesinger. Then again he just may not be experienced enough yet. Seemed strong enough though. I look forward to seeing how bladesingers and swordmages interact.
Yeah, but isn't this clinging a bit to the old? Prior prerequisites meant you had to be an elf--therefore a dexterous one. Move things forward 100 years, change the magic, and can't this be explained?
Again, have yet to read the novel, so just throwing out a point.
If it is critical to have then I may have to give up the Str and possibly the swordmage angle.
You're a Swordmage. Simply increase your strength when needed.
You're a Swordmage. Simply increase your strength when needed.
-Right, Geran Hulmaster did use a power/spell to boost his strength for a short time in multiple encounters. So I figure there will be an encounter power/spell for the class!:D All I can say is that was a really, really, and I mean REALLY GOOD NOVEL!
18D
Wishful thinking... it's almost certainly going to be an epic or paragon path for the Swordmage, just because it'll send the lore-loving Realm's Fans into a seething rage, which seems to be among their favorite activities lately...
-Then, back to the "ugh"ing and
ing...True. Though...is there something a human can be that other races are simply barred from being able to do?
-Anything with a 'Human' prerequisite? I don't know, offhand.
Honest Q. I mean, you do have Netheril. Since when can't humans accomplish such feats?
-No one said they can't accomplish great heights. They just don't. Right now...
I look forward to seeing how bladesingers and swordmages interact.
-The best analogy I can think of would be the relationship between a Paladin and an armored, martial Cleric. Close enough, to the naked eye, but there's a bunch of subtle differences those who know what they are looking for can spot quite easily.
Yeah, but isn't this clinging a bit to the old? Prior prerequisites meant you had to be an elf--therefore a dexterous one. Move things forward 100 years, change the magic, and can't this be explained?
-No. Humans aren't connected to the Weave (or, whatever will be the Weave, if even) like Elves are. Thus, they cannot hear the Bladesong. This is well explained in the novel Bladesinger, which deals with a Half-Elven Bladesinger, and how his Human blood makes the Bladesong so much fainter, until he, well...Read it.
-Just like how Elves can't be Dwarven Battlerangers, Githzeri can't be Githyanki Illithid Hunters, and Warforged can't be Halfling Warsnipers.
-No. Humans aren't connected to the Weave (or, whatever will be the Weave, if even) like Elves are. Thus, they cannot hear the Bladesong. This is well explained in the novel Bladesinger, which deals with a Half-Elven Bladesinger, and how his Human blood makes the Bladesong so much fainter, until he, well...Read it.
-Just like how Elves can't be Dwarven Battlerangers, Githzeri can't be Githyanki Illithid Hunters, and Warforged can't be Halfling Warsnipers.
That would be my point: There is no weave. So, whatever connection Elves might have shared with it are moot. Bladesong or not, it is all gone. For the most basic of magic users, the only way to figure out how to work it again is to discuss it together. Unless you have Bane, you have to rediscover everything.
And I'll read it, but we all know 3.5 doesn't necessarily relate to 4.
-No. Humans aren't connected to the Weave (or, whatever will be the Weave, if even) like Elves are. Thus, they cannot hear the Bladesong. This is well explained in the novel Bladesinger, which deals with a Half-Elven Bladesinger, and how his Human blood makes the Bladesong so much fainter, until he, well...Read it.
-So...if there is no Weave wouldn't there not be a Bladesong?
So...using 4E Terminology I guess that would mean the Bladesong would have to use the Arcane Power Source. Right, wrong, maybe?18D
-So...if there is no Weave wouldn't there not be a Bladesong?
18D
-I have no clue. The 4e Forgotten Realms take the rules, and throw them out the window.
-Technically, no Weave means no magic, period. Mortals in Realmspace are (or, rather, were :rolleyes
unable to tap into Raw Magic without dire effects, such as quick and rapid death. This was the reason the Weave existed in the first place- to allow mortals a safe and easy way to access to power of magic without harming (more or less) themselves.I have also just read on another thread how someone might actually buy the FR book for the Swordmage Class. Rich is a trixy one! Mwahahaha!
If I can just use spells yo boost my str then that rocks!
I guess the beings of Toril adapted to not having the Weave and worked through it.
-We shall see. Odds are, in my opinion, this is going to be one of those details that just happens to be overlooked.
I am pondering whether or not to buy it, and character likability plays a big part of my reading experience.
-I have no clue. The 4e Forgotten Realms take the rules, and throw them out the window.
-Technically, no Weave means no magic, period. Mortals in Realmspace are (or, rather, were :rolleyes
Silly rabbit! Didn't you hear?
That whole Mystra thing? It was just a myth. Total nonsense.
The Weave? That was just how cavemen mages -thought- magic worked. And people were cavemen 100 years ago.
All those gods and goddesses different races used to worship? Just different perceptions of the same five deities. In fact, there's probably only one deity.
And demonic offspring? Not so demonic, since they live in a duplex around the corner and are now our best friends.
And that 3.5 game people used to play? People -thought- it was fun, but they were completely wrong.
All those gods and goddesses different races used to worship? Just different perceptions of the same five deities. In fact, there's probably only one deity.
Lies! *covers Hoar's ears*
This is slightly off the current topic of conversation. But... How was the main character, not in terms of whatever crunch we can get. But simply how good of a character is he?
I am pondering whether or not to buy it, and character likability plays a big part of my reading experience.
-Buy the Book. Read the Book. You will like Geran Hulmaster. It is a good story.:D
18D
Silly rabbit! Didn't you hear?
That whole Mystra thing? It was just a myth. Total nonsense.
The Weave? That was just how cavemen mages -thought- magic worked. And people were cavemen 100 years ago.
All those gods and goddesses different races used to worship? Just different perceptions of the same five deities. In fact, there's probably only one deity.
And demonic offspring? Not so demonic, since they live in a duplex around the corner and are now our best friends.
And that 3.5 game people used to play? People -thought- it was fun, but they were completely wrong.
-Oh.
Which is why, come 5e, we find out that the pantheon is actually a manifestation of Ao's Multiple Personality Disorder...
-I heard by 5e, Ao is going to be gone completely. The new overdeity is going to be Perkerdell.
Sounds a lot like a narcotic I can think of... though it wouldn't surprise me much.
-I agree, but it was the best amalgamation I could think of.
Myth Drannor is a thriving city again ruled by a female Coronal. It apparently intigrates all of the races because a human is on the Coronal's Guard.
Sun elves are called Sun Elf and not eladrin.
Hulburg's harbor was created by Changeland effect.
There is a forested earth mote floating near Mulmaster.
Hulburg keeps watch for maurading orcs, ogres, and spellwarped creatures.
Ghostwise halflings are an inch or two over 4 feet tall, wear boots, have corn rows (braided hair), and have telepathy (The ghostwise halfling and main character talk to each other with thoughts).
A group of slavers in the realms are the Crimson Chains.
Myth Drannor is a thriving city again ruled by a female Coronal. It apparently intigrates all of the races because a human is on the Coronal's Guard.
Wonder how bad the Drow made out... Last I knew, they lived ether in, or near Myth Drannor. Who knows, maybe there's an uneasy truce between the Drow and the Surface Elves of Myth Drannor/Cormanthor.
Also, seeing as how Myth Drannor is up and running again, think Shaundakul's faith is on the upswing?
Myth Drannor is a thriving city again ruled by a female Coronal. It apparently intigrates all of the races because a human is on the Coronal's Guard.
-Yes, we know this already. Ilsevele Miritar became Coronal in 1380 DR. She had with her the Ruler's Blade, which was being kept by the Srinshee. In order for the Srinshee to return the blade to the mortal realms, and a Coronal to appear in the City of Songs once more, Ocenth's Vow- to have a fully integrated Myth Drannor- must have been fufilled once more
Sun elves are called Sun Elf and not eladrin.
-Yes. Never were they going to have their names changed, in-game. Out-of-game, their stats will reflect those of 4e D&D Eladrin, but in-game, they are still known as Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Star Elves, etc.
-Yes. Never were they going to have their names changed, in-game. Out-of-game, their stats will reflect those of 4e D&D Eladrin, but in-game, they are still known as Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Star Elves, etc.
And you have no idea how happy I was to learn that.
Where did we learn that. Please point it out. This was something I was hating. Really want to know this one. Please.
-The one and only "Ask the Realms authors/designers thread" 3. Start at around page #20 and go from there. Its in there somewhere. Rich has been a real trooper.
18D;)
Again thanks for your help 18D and I will continue to skim as time permits. Might take a few months though.
When I played the Escape from Sembia adventure at D&DXP the adventure began with us being told we were hired by an eladrin contact to deliver a message. I don't know if that was written into the adventure or just our DM but it had me wondering if the name eladrin was going to be used despite what was said earlier. Anyway, I was just sharing what I read in the book for those who didn't know it all already.
If it was in the FR, then it would have been ether a Sun, Moon, or Star Elf who gave the mission. Eladrin=Sun/Moon/Star Elves in the Forgotten Realms. I would doubt FR D&D games would want to differ to much from most 4.0 D&D novels. If you cal them one thing in the game, and something else in the books... That's a quick way to confuse a playerbase.
When I played the Escape from Sembia adventure at D&DXP the adventure began with us being told we were hired by an eladrin contact to deliver a message. I don't know if that was written into the adventure or just our DM but it had me wondering if the name eladrin was going to be used despite what was said earlier. Anyway, I was just sharing what I read in the book for those who didn't know it all already.
If it was in the FR, then it would have been ether a Sun, Moon, or Star Elf who gave the mission. Eladrin=Sun/Moon/Star Elves in the Forgotten Realms. I would doubt FR D&D games would want to differ to much from most 4.0 D&D novels. If you call them one thing in the game, and something else in the books... That's a quick way to confuse a playerbase.
And you have no idea how happy I was to learn that.
-Well, glad you are happy.
Where did we learn that. Please point it out. This was something I was hating. Really want to know this one. Please.
-As Delta pointed out, it was in that thread. If you don't want to go looking for it, just take my word on it. I'm 100% sure of what was said, and am willing to sake my reputation on it, that's how sure I am.
If you cal them one thing in the game, and something else in the books... That's a quick way to confuse a playerbase.
-Only for newer players, I think. Knowing this, as a so-called "veteran", I don't find it particularly confusing.
I wonder if they'll ever have a story reason (or rather, in-novel explanation) for all these elves suddenly being able to "fey step".
-Blame it on the Spellplague, and call it a day. That said, perhaps the DM's Guide to the Forgotten Realms will mention that Faerûnian "Eladrin" cannot do that. Unlikely, of course, because that would make not everything 100% interchangable, but...
-As Delta pointed out, it was in that thread. If you don't want to go looking for it, just take my word on it. I'm 100% sure of what was said, and am willing to sake my reputation on it, that's how sure I am.
THIS post and THIS are where Rich mentions that Eladrin = Sun/Moon/Star Elves.
-Blame it on the Spellplague, and call it a day. That said, perhaps the DM's Guide to the Forgotten Realms will mention that Faerûnian "Eladrin" cannot do that. Unlikely, of course, because that would make not everything 100% interchangable, but...
They have that ability. And yeah, blame it on the Spellplague, which apparently drew the Feywild closer to Faerun. Thus the Moon/Sun/Star Elves (re)gained the ability to make a Fey Step.
They have that ability. And yeah, blame it on the Spellplague, which apparently drew the Feywild closer to Faerun. Thus the Moon/Sun/Star Elves (re)gained the ability to make a Fey Step.
-Oh well. Retcon strikes again...
Vaasa is ruled by Warlock Knights that call themselves Fellthanes.
Spellscars can be passed down to children. You can be a carrier of a spellscar and not know it and pass it on to your children. Spellscars may not manifest at birth but appear on you later in life. Others view them as disfigurements.
There are a few changelands around Hulburg and atleast one floating earth mote. Changelands are discribed as pieces of the alien world Abeir that merged with Faerun. Sometimes just landscapes appeared on Faerun, sometimes it brought alien creatures with it.
When a human from Hulburg saw a tiefling she thought it was some kind of devil.
Gruumsh, Ilmater, and Amaunator are mentioned as gods.
GreenKnight: Thank-you very much.
And yeah, blame it on the Spellplague, which apparently drew the Feywild closer to Faerun. Thus the Moon/Sun/Star Elves (re)gained the ability to make a Fey Step.
See, this is what gets me. Eldarin are said to reside in the Feywild. Its why they are more in tune with things. Thats why the Sun, Moon and Star elf thing gets me.
Not saying its wrong--just makes it seem stupid, now that the Feywild has supposedly sorta reconnected with the world. I would prefer a higher form of elf, personally.
When a human from Hulburg saw a tiefling she thought it was some kind of devil
Yeah, that's pretty common, even in 3.x. Or at least it was for me... Most people I managed to play with keep mistaking my Tiefling for a Half breed, or even a full blood. I've even been called a demon by one of them. I just groan at it now.
See, this is what gets me. Eldarin are said to reside in the Feywild. Its why they are more in tune with things. Thats why the Sun, Moon and Star elf thing gets me.
Not saying its wrong--just makes it seem stupid, now that the Feywild has supposedly sorta reconnected with the world. I would prefer a higher form of elf, personally.
-Retcon! Spellplague!
-Retcon! Spellplague!
Yeah. We'll kill off Mystra with the Spellplague for the 4th Edition, 'cause its the best way to introduce the new system into the game, but we can't bring in the Eldarin.
I personally think it would be great to bring in a superior Elven race to discriminate against the already "superior" elves--who happen to be descendants of the Eldarin, themselves. Quite the story twist.
Yeah. We'll kill off Mystra with the Spellplague for the 4th Edition, 'cause its the best way to introduce the new system into the game, but we can't bring in the Eldarin.
I personally think it would be great to bring in a superior Elven race to discriminate against the already "superior" elves--who happen to be descendants of the Eldarin, themselves. Quite the story twist.
There's a perverse sense of Justice in that... I like it.
I personally think it would be great to bring in a superior Elven race to discriminate against the already "superior" elves--who happen to be descendants of the Eldarin, themselves. Quite the story twist.
-That would leave all of the currently existing Elves in jeopardy. What would they be? They aren't Drow, we know that. The 4e generic Elf is the "woodsy" type of Elf, and Sun/Moon/Star Elves don't really fit that archetype. It's a problem with the designers making everything interchangable, and/or eliminating subtypes, mostly.
-Oh well. Retcon strikes again...
It's not actually a retcon, as a retcon is saying that something was always true, even though it wasn't beforehand. In this case, it'd be a retcon if they said "Oh, Sun Elves and Moon Elves always had the ability to Fey Step. You just never saw them do it". That's not what's happening, though. What's happening is that the Feywild has now drawn closer to Faerun, and the Sun Elves and Moon Elves now find themselves being able to cross over into it, thus gaining the ability to do something which they never could do, before.
-That would leave all of the currently existing Elves in jeopardy. What would they be? They aren't Drow, we know that. The 4e generic Elf is the "woodsy" type of Elf, and Sun/Moon/Star Elves don't really fit that archetype. It's a problem with the designers making everything interchangable, and/or eliminating subtypes, mostly.
That's not quite what I read... It seems all fine to me.
I'll look into it and get back to you.
Gruumsh, Ilmater, and Amaunator are mentioned as gods.
Anything beyond just a mention for Ilmater? Anything else said about him? For instance, any mention of where he currently resides (I.E. Does he still live in Brightwater, or has he moved back into the House of the Triad)?
It's not actually a retcon, as a retcon is saying that something was always true, even though it wasn't beforehand. In this case, it'd be a retcon if they said "Oh, Sun Elves and Moon Elves always had the ability to Fey Step. You just never saw them do it". That's not what's happening, though.
-Being as that the Sun/Moon/Star Elves were never Elves, and were always Eladrin, it is a retcon.
What's happening is that the Feywild has now drawn closer to Faerun, and the Sun Elves and Moon Elves now find themselves being able to cross over into it, thus gaining the ability to do something which they never could do, before.
-The Plane of Faerie is already coexistent with the Prime Material Plane. There is no "drawing it closer", other than actually tearing the fabric in reality, and making the two one. This is why portals to Faerie are so common and prevalent, and Lythari have the ability to enter to and leave from Faerie with such ease.
That's not quite what I read... It seems all fine to me.
I'll look into it and get back to you.
-Look back into it, and you'll see what I am talking about. The stats for 4e Elves most closely resemble Forgotten Realms Wood Elves. Sun/Moon/Star Elves have some striking differences than Wood Elves, especially concerning magic. So, if you propose that these new 4e Eladrin do not include the already existing Sun/Moon/Star Elves, and they can't be classified as 4e Elves, what can they be?
-Being as that the Sun/Moon/Star Elves were never Elves, and were always Eladrin, it is a retcon.
Only if you really want to split the hair really thin, there. An elf by any other name is still an elf.
-The Plane of Faerie is already coexistent with the Prime Material Plane. There is no "drawing it closer", other than actually tearing the fabric in reality, and making the two one. This is why portals to Faerie are so common and prevalent, and Lythari have the ability to enter to and leave from Faerie with such ease.
Ah, I see what you mean, now.
Only if you really want to split the hair really thin, there. An elf by any other name is still an elf.
-Ruleswise, this is not the case. But, to a Faerûnian, it is.
-The Plane of Faerie is already coexistent with the Prime Material Plane. There is no "drawing it closer", other than actually tearing the fabric in reality, and making the two one. This is why portals to Faerie are so common and prevalent, and Lythari have the ability to enter to and leave from Faerie with such ease.
Yeah, but when the Spellplague hit, the Faerie got just close enough (even closer than before) to give fey step to sun, moon, and light-bulb elves but not close enough to actually merge them.
Yeah, but when the Spellplague hit, the Faerie got just close enough (even closer than before) to give fey step to sun, moon, and light-bulb elves but not close enough to actually merge them.
-This is how I see it: Take a flat piece of paper, and lay it flat on top of another flat piece of paper. You really can't get closer than that. I mean, go ahead. Explain it.
-And, what's the explanation for Wood Elves, and possibly Avariel not getting this ability (even though they also came from Faerie; the possibly is for the Avariel)? If everyone could do it, it'd be more palatable for me.
-And, what's the explanation for Wood Elves, and possibly Avariel not getting this ability (even though they also came from Faerie; the possibly is for the Avariel)? If everyone could do it, it'd be more palatable for me.
Oh, I see how it is. It's alright to get up in arms if the Wood Elves and Avariel can't fey step, because they're the 4E Elves, but no one ever thinks about the Wild Elves. Who also count as 4E Elves.
Yes, I is being difficult on purpose. :P
-This is how I see it: Take a flat piece of paper, and lay it flat on top of another flat piece of paper. You really can't get closer than that. I mean, go ahead. Explain it.
Actually, I see it more like a piece of paper on top of another with several other pieces of paper in between (the shadow, ethereal & astral planes). There was a connection, but it was subject to heavy interference from the other planes... until the spellplague seemingly cast the ethereal plane completely aside and cut away the entire deep shadow - leaving us with only the section of the shadow plane tied closest to Abeir-Toril, now known as the Shadowfell. With all those interfering planes gone, the realm of Faerie was suddenly a far easier jump.
-And, what's the explanation for Wood Elves, and possibly Avariel not getting this ability (even though they also came from Faerie; the possibly is for the Avariel)? If everyone could do it, it'd be more palatable for me.
Except for the fact that you have been stating all along that the Sun, Moon & Star Elves have a demonstratively stronger tie to magic than their Wild & Wood Elf cousins, allowing them to master the instinctive jump to what later became known as the Feywild with far greater ease. Also, we've yet to see anything that suggests that Elves can't make this jump, just that they don't learn it anything like so instinctively (requires actual class levels or feats to acquire).
There are far better ways they could have done this, but it's not impossible to make this particular connection workable.
Oh, I see how it is. It's alright to get up in arms if the Wood Elves and Avariel can't fey step, because they're the 4E Elves, but no one ever thinks about the Wild Elves. Who also count as 4E Elves.
Yes, I is being difficult on purpose. :P
-"Wild Elf" is a misnomer. "Wild Elves" are simply Wood Elves who are just more 'feral' and 'savage'.
Actually, I see it more like a piece of paper on top of another with several other pieces of paper in between (the shadow, ethereal & astral planes). There was a connection, but it was subject to heavy interference from the other planes... until the spellplague seemingly cast the ethereal plane completely aside and cut away the entire deep shadow - leaving us with only the section of the shadow plane tied closest to Abeir-Toril, now known as the Shadowfell. With all those interfering planes gone, the realm of Faerie was suddenly a far easier jump.
-The Plane of Faerie doesn't have those "extra layers" of paper (Shadow, Ethereal, Astral) between it and the Prime Material Plane. That is why individuals can transport directly from the Material Plane to Faerie, and back, without having to get involved in traveling through the Ethereal/Astral.
Except for the fact that you have been stating all along that the Sun, Moon & Star Elves have a demonstratively stronger tie to magic than their Wild & Wood Elf cousins, allowing them to master the instinctive jump to what later became known as the Feywild with far greater ease.
-They do not have a stronger tie to magic. Societally, they embrace magic more than Wood Elves, or Aquatic Elves. Their innate tie to the Weave is just as strong as that of Wood Elves, or Avariel, or whoever else, however. This is why ALL Elves can enter into Reverie, or Elven Communion, and so on and so forth.
Also, we've yet to see anything that suggests that Elves can't make this jump, just that they don't learn it anything like so instinctively (requires actual class levels or feats to acquire).
-The stats for the 4e Elf has already been released in a preview article, if I recall correctly, and I don't remember seeing anything about "Fey Jumping".
-Look back into it, and you'll see what I am talking about. The stats for 4e Elves most closely resemble Forgotten Realms Wood Elves. Sun/Moon/Star Elves have some striking differences than Wood Elves, especially concerning magic. So, if you propose that these new 4e Eladrin do not include the already existing Sun/Moon/Star Elves, and they can't be classified as 4e Elves, what can they be?
Went back and poked around. I never looked at the game stats or mechanics. It all adds up.
Once again, its just one of those things where they could have gone one way or the other and chose the other.
-The stats for the 4e Elf has already been released in a preview article, if I recall correctly, and I don't remember seeing anything about "Fey Jumping".
They have the "Wild Step" ability. Whatever that is.
Went back and poked around. I never looked at the game stats or mechanics. It all adds up.
Once again, its just one of those things where they could have gone one way or the other and chose the other.
-I, personally, like your idea better.
They have the "Wild Step" ability. Whatever that is.
-By putting all of the circumstantial evidence together, along with a bit of guessing, maybe it's something akin to being able to Hide in Plain Sight in a wooded area?
-I, personally, like your idea better.
Me, too. It's why I had it. :D
-
-By putting all of the circumstantial evidence together, along with a bit of guessing, maybe it's something akin to being able to Hide in Plain Sight in a wooded area?
Well, seeing how Fey Step and Shadow Step allow a character to shift through planes, I would imagine a Wild Step would have to have some sort of movement involved. Probably the ability to move so far through a wooded area without being seen. Hide in Plain Site in motion. Or, with the rules now thrown out the window, perhaps its simply the ability to actually teleport a small distance, while in wooded areas.
...?
EDIT: Wild Step: You ignore difficult terrain when you shift (even if
you have a power that allows you to shift multiple squares).
That according to Enworld.
Me, too. It's why I had it. :D
-Make sure to make all of your ideas like that, and you'll be on a roll.
Well, seeing how Fey Step and Shadow Step allow a character to shift through planes, I would imagine a Wild Step would have to have some sort of movement involved. Probably the ability to move so far through a wooded area without being seen. Hide in Plain Site in motion. Or, with the rules now thrown out the window, perhaps its simply the ability to actually teleport a small distance, while in wooded areas.
...?
-Yeah, that's more or less what I was thinking as well. Think anime-ish, where a person disappears, and then reappears. Perhaps a Wooded Dimension Door, of sorts.
EDIT: Wild Step: You ignore difficult terrain when you shift (even if
you have a power that allows you to shift multiple squares).
That according to Enworld.
-Meh, I don't even know what that means. Can someone translate?
-Make sure to make all of your ideas like that, and you'll be on a roll.
I'm a friggin' avalanche, baby!!
-Yeah, that's more or less what I was thinking as well. Think anime-ish, where a person disappears, and then reappears. Perhaps a Wooded Dimension Door, of sorts.
That was the name of the spell I was trying to remember. That's exactly what I was speaking of.
-Meh, I don't even know what that means. Can someone translate?
Seconded.
-Meh, I don't even know what that means. Can someone translate?
Essentially from what I have gathered it means walking through thick brush and other areas that could prove difficult is easier. The shift is like a 5-foot step in 3.5 so it lets you move inconsequentially through tough terrain in combat. If you have an ability that lets you physically (meaning not teleport, fly, super jump etc.) shift multiple squares (some powers attributed to the strikers have this kind of effect) you can do so without have to curtail your movement.
To sum up: An elf rogue can tumble through rose bushes without getting snagged.
...but only when humming the mission impossible theme song.
Shift is essentially a replacement for the 5ft-Adjustment step, except that it takes a move-action.
-And you need to hum the Mission: Impossible theme song. ;)
Shift is essentially a replacement for the 5ft-Adjustment step, except that it takes a move-action.
Weak. The "Eldarin" can shift planes, but Wood and Wild Elves only have the ability to hop over a bush thats in their way when they move 5 ft? Even with the Mission Impossible theme song accompanying the movement, that's lame.
Weak. The "Eldarin" can shift planes, but Wood and Wild Elves only have the ability to hop over a bush thats in their way when they move 5 ft? Even with the Mission Impossible theme song accompanying the movement, that's lame.
But on the bright side, at least they get exploding gum. :P
But on the bright side, at least they get exploding gum. :P
I'm personally more interested in the new Dwarven racial ability: Fart on Command
I feel that its going to have a much more explosive impact on things than the Bush Jump.
I feel that its going to have a much more explosive impact on things than the Bush Jump.
I can't think of a non-perverted reply to this...
I can't think of a non-perverted reply to this...
Whatever do you mean?
Oh!! Pervert!!
Weak. The "Eldarin" can shift planes, but Wood and Wild Elves only have the ability to hop over a bush thats in their way when they move 5 ft? Even with the Mission Impossible theme song accompanying the movement, that's lame.
-Wood Elves got little respect to begin with.
I mean. if El' can get freaky-deaky wit' 'em--then why can't I?!!
I'd much rather hang out with a tribe of Wild Elves. If they don't kill me out of principle, then it'll probably be a good time.
Wild Elves probably would kill you out of principle. That's why I say party it up with Wood Elves.
They can get it on!!
-Yes, Wood Elves who are feral and hostile enough to be given the misnomer "Wild Elves" would indeed, at the very least, attack you, if you entered into their territory. At best, they'd knock you out, and dump you somewhere else, and, at worst, they'd kill you.
I always laughed madly at the idea of a Wild Elf ambush party. They jump whoever, knock 'em out, alter their memories, then drop them off somewhere at the other end of the forest. Often much farther then the intended destination of said whoever. :P
-Yes, Wood Elves who are feral and hostile enough to be given the misnomer "Wild Elves" would indeed, at the very least, attack you, if you entered into their territory. At best, they'd knock you out, and dump you somewhere else, and, at worst, they'd kill you.
Is it not correct to say that Wood and Wild are distinctively two different subraces, just like the Sun and Moon Elves??
Officially yes, however, according to LK, one or the other doesn't actually exist.
How so?
How so?
Wild Elves used to be Wood Elves, who became more feral and, well, "Wild". If I recall, it was because their Elven Kingdom was destroyed, and they scattered to the winds, never making a new one. Lord Karsus could tell you better than I.
Wild Elves used to be Wood Elves, who became more feral and, well, "Wild". If I recall, it was because their Elven Kingdom was destroyed, and they scattered to the winds, never making a new one. Lord Karsus could tell you better than I.
-This is more or less correct. A group of Elves came to Faerûn from Faerie around -27,000 DR, via portals that the Fey Creator Race opened between the two planes. These were the Green Elves, the Wood Elves. Over the years, they have mingled very much with other Elven subraces, but, in the end, they have their own distinct origins, at the hand(s) of the Seldarine, just like every other Elven subrace. "Wild Elves" are simply Wood Elves who have become 'feral' and 'barbaric'. Anatomically and physiologically, they are identical to Wood Elves. Anthropologically, however, they differ.
-Anthropologically, I, being a white male of European/Asian descent from Brooklyn, differ a great deal from a Hutu tribesman from Burundi. Am I more or less of a **** Sapien than him? Nope, we're both the same species. My DNA is (more or less) exactly similar to his. Now, likewise, is a Wood Elf any different than a Wild Elf, anatomically, physiologically, and so on? No. Anthropologically? Yes. But, having a different culture does cause one to need to come from a totally different genesis, as I have just demonstrated.
-Sun Elves (Gold Elves)? Created by the Seldarine. Moon Elves (Silver Elves)? Created by the Seldarine. Wood Elves (Green Elves)? Created by the Seldarine. Wild Elves? Not created by anyone. See the problem?
-Sun Elves (Gold Elves)? Created by the Seldarine. Moon Elves (Silver Elves)? Created by the Seldarine. Wood Elves (Green Elves)? Created by the Seldarine. Wild Elves? Not created by anyone. See the problem?
I'm aware that they are a split form the Wood Elves, but I also recall it being stated that they have very much become their own subrace--regardless of how they originated. Unfortunately, I am stuck at work, so can't say one way or another at this point, but I am definitely going to look into it.
But, since you've opened up the can of worms, where the hell do the Star Elves come from?
I thought the wild elves were statted differently than sun, star, moon and wood elves also. I for some reason thought they had their own favored class and ability modifiers. I am not certain why I thought this though and I don't feel like looking through my books to back up my thoughts. ;)
My assumption, as well. I'll be checking it out when I get home.
I'm aware that they are a split form the Wood Elves, but I also recall it being stated that they have very much become their own subrace--regardless of how they originated. Unfortunately, I am stuck at work, so can't say one way or another at this point, but I am definitely going to look into it.
-Elves don't physically evolve, so that isn't the case. Culturally, as I have been saying, they have changed. Wood Elf society is very different from "Wild Elf" socieety. But, anatomically, or physiologically? Nope. Both are Green Elves, Wood Elves.
-One of the problems is that, in 2e, there were only 'Green Elves'. There was no such concept as 'Wood Elf', and 'Wild Elf'. Both were the same Green Elves, though some were more savage and feral than the others. Come 3e, things changed...
But, since you've opened up the can of worms, where the hell do the Star Elves come from?
-Presumably the Seldarine, since they have a special affinity for Corellon Larethian. There hasn't been much information released on the Star Elves, however, so we don't have a definite answer at this time.
I thought the wild elves were statted differently than sun, star, moon and wood elves also. I for some reason thought they had their own favored class and ability modifiers. I am not certain why I thought this though and I don't feel like looking through my books to back up my thoughts. ;)
-Yes, a retcon in Races of Faerûn. And, I ask again, am I not as **** Sapien as that Hutu tribesman, and vice-versa? Of course. Favored class, skills, all of that, those can change. The "favored class" so to speak, for someone living where I am would differ from the "favored class" for the people of Burundi. Skills, feats and abilities? Again, sure. You need different attributes to survive in Burundi than you do to survive in New York.
I thought the wild elves were statted differently than sun, star, moon and wood elves also. I for some reason thought they had their own favored class and ability modifiers. I am not certain why I thought this though and I don't feel like looking through my books to back up my thoughts. ;)
Let's see here... As of 3.x, Wild Elves have +2 Dex, -2 Int. "Wild Elves are hardier than other elves, but favor physical action and feats of athleticism instead of learning to solve problems." and their favored class is Sorcerer.
I just got the FRC right in front of me. :P
I'm aware that they are a split form the Wood Elves, but I also recall it being stated that they have very much become their own subrace--regardless of how they originated. Unfortunately, I am stuck at work, so can't say one way or another at this point, but I am definitely going to look into it.
But, since you've opened up the can of worms, where the hell do the Star Elves come from?
Because Wild Elves have been apart, and "Wild" for so long, they have indeed become their own race. Reason why I make the distinction between Wild and Wood Elves. They had been one race, now they are two. If you held up a Drow, to a Ilythiir, they wouldn't look the same, even though they are "technically" the same race. Years of constant travel, fighting, and the teachings of Lolth have changed the Llythiir into the Drow, and while the Wild Elves didn't have a evil Goddess to lead them astray, they did retreat deep into their woods, and the wild wilderness with high trees that block out most of the suns light, isn't that much unlike the Drow and their Underdark.
As for Star Elves, they come from Sildeyuir, which is where Yuirwood is in Faerie. My best guess anyway.
And yes, I know that Lord Karsus already answered this question, but I wanted to put in my two coppers.
Because Wild Elves have been apart, and "Wild" for so long, they have indeed become their own race. Reason why I make the distinction between Wild and Wood Elves. They had been one race, now they are two. If you held up a Drow, to a Ilythiir, they wouldn't look the same, even though they are "technically" the same race. Years of constant travel, fighting, and the teachings of Lolth have changed the Llythiir into the Drow, and while the Wild Elves didn't have a evil Goddess to lead them astray, they did retreat deep into their woods, and the wild wilderness with high trees that block out most of the suns light, isn't that much unlike the Drow and their Underdark.
As for Star Elves, they come from Sildeyuir, which is where Yuirwood is in Faerie. My best guess anyway.
And yes, I know that Lord Karsus already answered this question, but I wanted to put in my two coppers.
Sounds like were back to a Green and a Copper. ;)
Are you agreeing with Karsus on technicality or disagreeing with him on technicality?
Star Elves--according to The Last Mythal--reside in a sort of pocket plane--believe your correct in the name Sildeyuir--that is a reflection of the Yuriwood. Though I don't know if it is necessarily in Faeire. I'm pretty sure it was completely isolated in itself.
Sounds like were back to a Green and a Copper. ;)
Probably. :P
Are you agreeing with Karsus on technicality or disagreeing with him on technicality?
Umm... Both? I'm agreeing that they were the same race, but that over time, they changed enough to become a new race. Whether or not his accepts Wild Elves as their own race is really up to him.
Star Elves--according to The Last Mythal--reside in a sort of pocket plane--believe your correct in the name Sildeyuir--that is a reflection of the Yuriwood. Though I don't know if it is necessarily in Faeire. I'm pretty sure it was completely isolated in itself.
Oh, I'm sure it is called Sildeyuir, though it being a place in Fearie was just my best guess. I would however say that it's a sub-plane of Faerie, as that would make more sense then if it was it's own stand alone plane.
Umm... Both? I'm agreeing that they were the same race, but that over time, they changed enough to become a new race. Whether or not his accepts Wild Elves as their own race is really up to him.
Then this would make me question what actually constitutes as "canon" with Karsus.
Oh, I'm sure it is called Sildeyuir, though it being a place in Fearie was just my best guess. I would however say that it's a sub-plane of Faerie, as that would make more sense then if it was it's own stand alone plane.
I'll check into this as well--if the book hasn't been buried too deep into my closet at this point.
Then this would make me question what actually constitutes as "canon" with Karsus.
Oh you can trust just about anything Lord Karsus says as canon. He'll even show up and tell you where to find what he's talking about.
I'll check into this as well--if the book hasn't been buried too deep into my closet at this point.
No rush.
Oh you can trust just about anything Lord Karsus says as canon. He'll even show up and tell you where to find what he's talking about.
Then how unfortunate it will be that I won't be able to access the resources he is going to dictate from. ;)
Then how unfortunate it will be that I won't be able to access the resources he is going to dictate from. ;)
This is true... Good thing his Elven Netbook is here, on hand.
This is true... Good thing his Elven Netbook is here, on hand.
Oh. Yes. This will help.
Oh. Yes. This will help.
There's just no pleasing you is there? :P
There's just no pleasing you is there? :P
Why does everybody say that!! Huh?!! Huh!?!?! I can be pleased! By Bejebuz, I can!!
Uh-hmmm....
Anyways, uh, thanks for trying. I'll just go sift through all that text now and hope I stumble upon my answers....
Hmm... I wonder if making JudgeDookie read counts as my good deed for the day? :P
My man, I am practically reading all day. I just want to read what I find interesting at the time. Otherwise, it just becomes a long day of reading.
OK. According to Races of Faerun, we have some things backwards here. Wild Elves are their own distinct subrace--created by the Seldarine, for Karsus's benefit. They are, indeed, Green Elves.
Wood Elves are apparently descendants of Sun, Moon and Wild Elves (Green Elves before they went "wild"). They are a mix and smattering of them all. The book also states that they are a distinct subrace.
Now, the only way I can see this being argued is if you went at an all or nothing approach. Either there are just Elves, or there are Sun, Moon, Star, Wild and Wood Elves.
My man, I am practically reading all day. I just want to read what I find interesting at the time. Otherwise, it just becomes a long day of reading.
OK. According to Races of Faerun, we have some things backwards here. Wild Elves are their own distinct subrace--created by the Seldarine, for Karsus's benefit. They are, indeed, Green Elves.
Wood Elves are apparently descendants of Sun, Moon and Wild Elves (Green Elves before they went "wild"). They are a mix and smattering of them all. The book also states that they are a distinct subrace.
Now, the only way I can see this being argued is if you went at an all or nothing approach. Either there are just Elves, or there are Sun, Moon, Star, Wild and Wood Elves.
Or that there are Elves (Wood, Wild), and there are Eladrin (Sun, Moon, Star). :P
Now I'm paraphrasing but, according to RoF, the Wild Elves where the Green Elves who after the Crown Wars, abandoned their kingdoms and the trappings of civilization to become a reclusive and furtive race. As for the Wood Elves, also in the wake of the Crown Wars many Moon, Sun and Green Elves where left homeless. Instead of going into exile like the Green Elves (see above), they decided to remain around and eventually became the Wood or Copper Elves.
So while Wood Elves are partially descendant from Green Elves, they are a different/new subrace who now breed true. At least in 3.5.
Personally I wish the Green Elves would return to their civilized ways of before the Crown Wars and reclaim one of the Lost Empires.
Or that there are Elves (Wood, Wild), and there are Eladrin (Sun, Moon, Star). :P
Yeah, I was going to touch on that, but were speaking of FR here, where Eldarin are Sun, Moon and Star Elves. Therefore, the argument remains, as there are no "Eldarin" in FR.
According to Races of Faerun, originally the Green Elves, Lythari and Avariel came to Faerun from Faerie, then came the Sy-tel quessir (who would become the Drow), the Moon and Gold Elves and the the Aquatic Elves.
Now I'm paraphrasing but, according to RoF, the Wild Elves where the Green Elves who after the Crown Wars, abandoned their kingdoms and the trappings of civilization to become a reclusive and furtive race. As for the Wood Elves, in the wake of the Crown Wars many Moon, Sun and Green Elves where left homeless. Instead of going into exile like the Green Elves above, they decided to remain around and eventually became the Wood or Copper Elves.
QFT--just read it myself. Which is why I say all or nothing.
;)
Wood Elves = Wild Elves (Anatomically)
Wood Elves = Wild Elves (Physiologically)
Wood Elves =/= Wild Elves (Anthropologically)
Lord Karsus = Hutu Tribesman (Anatomically)
Lord Karsus = Hutu Tribesman (Physiologically)
Lord Karsus = Hutu Tribesman (Anthropologically)
-And, yes, one can read up on matters in Elves of Faerûn.
Lord Karsus = Hutu Tribesman (Anatomically)
Lord Karsus = Hutu Tribesman (Physiologically)
Lord Karsus = Hutu Tribesman (Anthropologically)
-And, yes, one can read up on matters in Elves of Faerûn.
This isn't even close to true! We all know Lord Karsus is really a Lich. :P
-For those challenging me out, I know what I am talking about.
;)
Wood Elves = Wild Elves (Anatomically)
Wood Elves = Wild Elves (Physiologically)
Wood Elves =/= Wild Elves (Anthropologically)
Lord Karsus = Hutu Tribesman (Anatomically)
Lord Karsus = Hutu Tribesman (Physiologically)
Lord Karsus = Hutu Tribesman (Anthropologically)
-And, yes, one can read up on matters in Elves of Faerûn.
My man, I would hope you know by now that any time I feel you bring out a valid point, I concede to it--no matter how much I would like to argue on behalf of my own pride. You are right and I am wrong--no matter how I would like to feel different.
But this simply makes no sense to me. Your argument seems to be an argument with your own point.
As is the debate, there are either Elves, or there are Elves with subraces--each with their own anatomical, physiological, and anthropological traits. You have to accept one or all.
This isn't even close to true! We all know Lord Karsus is really a Lich. :P
-The physical body the spirit of Lord Karsus is posessing, then. :P
My man, I would hope you know by now that any time I feel you bring out a valid point, I concede to it--no matter how much I would like to argue on behalf of my own pride. You are right and I am wrong--no matter how I would like to feel different.
-A good policy. ;)
But this simply makes no sense to me. Your argument seems to be an argument with your own point.
As is the debate, there are either Elves, or there are Elves with subraces--each with their own anatomical, physiological, and anthropological traits. You have to accept one or all.
-I'm not understanding you. There are Elves have subraces. I don't think I ever disputed that.
-Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Star Elves, Wood Elves, Lythari, Avariel, Aquatic Elves...These are all Elven subraces. They all have their own unique physiology, anatomy and culture. Wild Elves do not, however. They share their physiology and anatomy with Wood Elves/Green Elves. They are only culturally different from the Wood Elves/Green Elves. Am I a totally different species from that Hutu tribesman, because we have different cultures? Or, are we both of the same species, but simply have a different culture, with different emphasizes placed on different things?
-"Wild Elves" could be a subset of Wood Elves/Green Elves. They aren't their own subrace of Elves, however. Elves dont evolve, physically. Only culturally. Take a "Wild Elf" baby, raise it in a Wood Elf/Green Elf society, and you have a perfectly 'ordinary' Wood Elf/Green Elf. Take a Wood Elf/Green Elf and raise it in a "Wild Elf" society, and you have a perfectly 'ordinary' "Wild Elf".
-A good policy. ;)
Don't push it, Butch. ;)
-I'm not understanding you. There are Elves have subraces. I don't think I ever disputed that.
I can't understand you either--you mistyped and destroyed the context of what you were trying to convey. :D
Luv it.
-Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Star Elves, Wood Elves, Lythari, Avariel, Aquatic Elves...These are all Elven subraces. They all have their own unique physiology, anatomy and culture. Wild Elves do not, however. They share their physiology and anatomy with Wood Elves/Green Elves. They are only culturally different from the Wood Elves/Green Elves. Am I a totally different species from that Hutu tribesman, because we have different cultures? Or, are we both of the same species, but simply have a different culture, with different emphasizes placed on different things?
Ignore all the other crap, my point with you on this is that you are about canon. It specifically says that Wood Elves are a unique subrace native to Faerun. If it's written, why is it not canon?
-"Wild Elves" could be a subset of Wood Elves/Green Elves. They aren't their own subrace of Elves, however. Elves dont evolve, physically.
Wild Elves would be a superset of Wood Elves. They are Green Elves. This is part of what I was imparting.
-The physical body the spirit of Lord Karsus is posessing, then. :P
That's better, even if it does make you more "Evil". :P
-A good policy. ;)
Cocky little thing, isn't he?
-I'm not understanding you. There are Elves have subraces. I don't think I ever disputed that.
-Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Star Elves, Wood Elves, Lythari, Avariel, Aquatic Elves...These are all Elven subraces. They all have their own unique physiology, anatomy and culture. Wild Elves do not, however. They share their physiology and anatomy with Wood Elves/Green Elves. They are only culturally different from the Wood Elves/Green Elves. Am I a totally different species from that Hutu tribesman, because we have different cultures? Or, are we both of the same species, but simply have a different culture, with different emphasizes placed on different things?
-"Wild Elves" could be a subset of Wood Elves/Green Elves. They aren't their own subrace of Elves, however. Elves dont evolve, physically. Only culturally. Take a "Wild Elf" baby, raise it in a Wood Elf/Green Elf society, and you have a perfectly 'ordinary' Wood Elf/Green Elf. Take a Wood Elf/Green Elf and raise it in a "Wild Elf" society, and you have a perfectly 'ordinary' "Wild Elf".
Oy, I didn't say this. *points down*
But this simply makes no sense to me. Your argument seems to be an argument with your own point.
As is the debate, there are either Elves, or there are Elves with subraces--each with their own anatomical, physiological, and anthropological traits. You have to accept one or all.
JudgeDookie, said it. Bad, Lord Karsus. Bad.
Wood Elves = Wild Elves (Anatomically)
Wood Elves = Wild Elves (Physiologically)
As much as I hate to contribute to nitpicking over sub-sub-sub-races of elves, what exactly is the difference between these two statements?
The natives are pretty unruly tonight!;) :P :D 18D:OMG!
Oy, I didn't say this. *points down*
This is why I asked you about the technical points, bub. They are bound to come back to you. ;)
As much as I hate to contribute to nitpicking over sub-sub-sub-races of elves, what exactly is the difference between these two statements?
Internal and external. What makes a white man different from an Asian, African American or Native American?
Nothing, really. But there evidently is.
Don't push it, Butch. ;)
-Just sayin'. :P
Ignore all the other crap, my point with you on this is that you are about canon. It specifically says that Wood Elves are a unique subrace native to Faerun. If it's written, why is it not canon?
-Can I share a secret with you?
Show
-Books aren't always right. Shh, don't tell. ;)
-I'll elaborate why in my response below.
-I'll elaborate why in my response below.
As much as I hate to contribute to nitpicking over sub-sub-sub-races of elves, what exactly is the difference between these two statements?
-Anatomy is the study of the physical organs that a creature has within them. Physiology is the study of how these systems of organs work and interact with each other. An anatomical study would be disecting a frog, and looking at it's organs. A physiological study would be giving a person a CAT scan, and watching how their brain reacts to different stimuli. Get the difference now?
Wood elves are not an original elven subrace. However, wild elves are. Wood elves are a mongrel race. Their blood is impure. Some would say filthy. They are orcs in elven skin - just look at their stat modifiers.
-See above.
-Green Elves are a nickname for Wood Elves
I'm sure that works really well in your game, but the official stance as of now is that wood elves are copper elves, the mongrel race of elves, and wild elves are green elves, the original pure elven race that is closest to nature.
I'm sure that works really well in your game, but the official stance as of now is that wood elves are copper elves, the mongrel race of elves, and wild elves are green elves, the original pure elven race that is closest to nature.
-See my response to JD.
The books are right in this case, because whatever the books say is right, unless corrected later.
I did see that, and you also said, "Books aren't alreays [sic] right. Shh, don't tell."
-Yes, that was the part. Noticed the typo, too. Thank you.
The books are right in this case, because whatever the books say is right, unless corrected later.
-Very untrue. Rich Baker's Last Mythal trilogy is a prime example of that, concerning Amlauril's hair color, and the Tree of Souls. Until lore was created to rectify the latter- as the former doesn't really matter- it was blatently wrong. Rich Baker admitted as much, citing how the specifics of the Tree of Souls slipped his mind while he was writing. Races of Faerûn is another example. Elves do not "evolve". The Moon Elf argument. The same thing is specifically mentioned concerning Drow, as well. Thus, what is said is in opposition of established lore, and is wrong.
All Elves are "Elves". They are all the same except for culture. Culture is the only thing that separates 1 Elf from another. This of course is different for the Drow who were "Cursed" and changed later by Lolth. In the end though, naturally, the Drow are the same as other Elves. Take away the curse and Gifts and there you go, another normal Elf.
:D
Anyway your argument is the reason for them hitting the refresh button. You guys sound like comic guys talking in a store. Someone who wants to pick up that issue hears the comic guys argueing about dates and back issues and what is canon and what isn't and it just makes them feel that they made the right chice in buying that extra pack of Magic instead of an issue of X-Men.
Convoluted history and people argueing over it just is a turnoff to new fans I think.
Convoluted history and people argueing over it just is a turnoff to new fans I think.
Some people are not worthy of the Realms.
All Elves are "Elves". They are all the same except for culture. Culture is the only thing that separates 1 Elf from another. This of course is different for the Drow who were "Cursed" and changed later by Lolth. In the end though, naturally, the Drow are the same as other Elves. Take away the curse and Gifts and there you go, another normal Elf.
-All Elves are Elves. Yes. Elves then are broken up into subraces: Sun, Moon, Star, Drow, and so on. Each subrace is different and unique, but all are Elves.
I thought Rich said he figured the Tree could have more than one sapling or are you talking about another situation?
-The Tree of Souls has/had no saplings. It is/was a sapling itself.
Anyway your argument is the reason for them hitting the refresh button. You guys sound like comic guys talking in a store. Someone who wants to pick up that issue hears the comic guys argueing about dates and back issues and what is canon and what isn't and it just makes them feel that they made the right chice in buying that extra pack of Magic instead of an issue of X-Men. Convoluted history and people argueing over it just is a turnoff to new fans I think.
-Mmmhmm...That's nice...
Can we get back to discussing the Swordmage book/class?
-I find this current debate a preferable topic. ;)
-Races of Faerûn, for reasons I don't know, decided to break Green Elves into two: Wood Elves, and Wild Elves. As I have discussed, seperating Wild Elves from Wood Elves is incorrect. What are Wild Elves in 3e are 'feral' Green Elves in 2e. What are Wood Elves in 3e are 'civilized' Green Elves in 2e.
You must have a different version of the Races of Faerun then I do, cause in mine copy is definitely states that the "Wood Elves" were originally Moon, Sun and Green elves who came together after the Crown Wars. This can specifically be found on pg. 45. On page 43 of the RoF is discusses Wild Elves and in that section it specifically says that they were descendant from Green Elves solely, mostly from their realm of Thearnytaar, Eiellur, Syopiir, Miyeritar and Keltormir.
In addition to the above information, you can also see in the Campaign Setting book that Wild Elves and Wood Elves have different crunch.
So putting the fact that in 3.x they have published different fluff and different crunch regarding them, I don't get how you make the leap that they are the same people, which you imply when you make a statement like Wood Elves = Wild Elves.
You must have a different version of the Races of Faerun then I do, cause in mine copy is definitely states that the "Wood Elves" were originally Moon, Sun and Green elves who came together after the Crown Wars. This can specifically be found on pg. 45. On page 43 of the RoF is discusses Wild Elves and in that section it specifically says that they were descendant from Green Elves solely, mostly from their realm of Thearnytaar, Eiellur, Syopiir, Miyeritar and Keltormir.
In addition to the above information, you can also see in the Campaign Setting book that Wild Elves and Wood Elves have different crunch.
So putting the fact that in 3.x they have published different fluff and different crunch regarding them, I don't get how you make the leap that they are the same people, which you imply when you make a statement like Wood Elves = Wild Elves.
-Have you not read anything I posted? Elves do not evolve. To say that a new subrace of Elves can be formed when bloodlines mix is incorrect. Moon Elves were their own unique subrace before they came to Faerûn, and continued to be Moon Elves after they came to Faerûn, and Sun Elven blood entered into their genes. When a Drow mates with another Elf, you either get a Drow child, or a child of that other Elven parentage, not a Half-Drow, Half-Whatever Elf mutant, which then goes on to be it's own unique race.
-Thus, Races of Faerûn is completely incorrect in what it presents. Second-Edition never differentiated between the two groups- there were "Green Elves", and the wild "Green Elves". Third-Edition retconned the latter group to be something else entirely, which is simply incorrect, based on the premise that it is not possible. Thus, it is wrong. It may be 'official', and 'canon', but those are two seperate ideas than what 'correct' is.
-The Elves who first came to Realmspace in -27,000 from Faerie, the "Green Elves", developed down two routes: the ones who stayed 'civilized' after the the Crown Wars, and the end of their large empires, and the ones who became 'feral', and 'barbaric' after the Crown Wars, and the end of their large empires. The latter group are the so called "Wild Elves". The latter group would be ordinary, mundane "Wood Elves". Genetically, they are identical. Culturally, they are not. Just like genetically, I am the same as that guy in Burundi, but culturally different. Culture does not a subrace make. Otherwise, there would be at least two Avariel subraces (Warriors and Philosophs), one new Drow subrace for every religion they follow, two new Lythari subraces (The Western and the Vil Adonrath), a new Sun/Moon Elven subrace for every unique empire and realm...
-Have you not read anything I posted? Elves do not evolve. To say that a new subrace of Elves can be formed when bloodlines mix is incorrect. Moon Elves were their own unique subrace before they came to Faerûn, and continued to be Moon Elves after they came to Faerûn, and Sun Elven blood entered into their genes. When a Drow mates with another Elf, you either get a Drow child, or a child of that other Elven parentage, not a Half-Drow, Half-Whatever Elf mutant, which then goes on to be it's own unique race.
-Thus, Races of Faerûn is completely incorrect in what it presents. Second-Edition never differentiated between the two groups- there were "Green Elves", and the wild "Green Elves". Third-Edition retconned the latter group to be something else entirely, which is simply incorrect, based on the premise that it is not possible. Thus, it is wrong. It may be 'official', and 'canon', but those are two seperate ideas than what 'correct' is.
-The Elves who first came to Realmspace in -27,000 from Faerie, the "Green Elves", developed down two routes: the ones who stayed 'civilized' after the the Crown Wars, and the end of their large empires, and the ones who became 'feral', and 'barbaric' after the Crown Wars, and the end of their large empires. The latter group are the so called "Wild Elves". The latter group would be ordinary, mundane "Wood Elves". Genetically, they are identical. Culturally, they are not. Just like genetically, I am the same as that guy in Burundi, but culturally different. Culture does not a subrace make. Otherwise, there would be at least two Avariel subraces (Warriors and Philosophs), one new Drow subrace for every religion they follow, two new Lythari subraces (The Western and the Vil Adonrath), a new Sun/Moon Elven subrace for every unique empire and realm...
Okay, first off we are arguing about a fictional game so I take all this in perspective. But to answer your question, yes I have read what you have posted, I just don't put your theory above what the designers of the game say. Basically what you are saying is the the people who publish this game are wrong and you are correct. The way I see it, your last paragraph is simply your personal take on the matter and not what has been published. If that works in your world, great but to say that you are correct and the publishers of the game are wrong, is well, wrong IMHO. Now As I posted (did you read what I wrote?) I base this argument on what was written for the 3.x edition. I'm working off the latest edition's information (even though I've been running games in the Realms since it first came out.) When 4e come out this may change but I'm not interested in getting into what version got things "right" because there is no right/wrong. Faerun is a fictional place, created by the game designers of WotC/Hasbro (and before that TSR and before that Ed and others). So if they change their story from one edition to the next so be it. Choose to use what version you want for your personal game to to same one version is right and one is wrong doesn't fit IMO...
Also you have no idea if Forgotten Realms elves can evolve or not. Published info says that the subraces of elves came from Faerie, it never says if they where all once one race or all different races entirely. Maybe there where all one race at one point and evolved for unknown reasons. Maybe being such a magical race it takes a great cultural event like the Crown Wars to trigger an evolution. What we do know is that Wood Elves and Wild Elves have different physical characteristics and different cultural backgrounds. That pretty much = an evolution in my book.
Basically what you are saying is the the people who publish this game are wrong and you are correct.
-Yes, I am correct, and they are incorrect. As I said earlier, being designers does not make them immune to making mistakes. Again, Rich Baker and the color of Amlauril's hair, or Rich Baker and the Tree of Souls, the latter of which was a mistake that he admitted to making, and apaologized, more or less, for making. Lore was created to allow everything to work out, so that's good, but that still doesn't change the fact that he nerfed up, on that issue. And, it happens. To err is to be Human.
The way I see it, your last paragraph is simply your personal take on the matter and not what has been published.
-It is not just my personal take, but the correct, actual take, based on the facts and details present in the setting. The other preeminent scholars of Faerûn's Elves all collaborate with what I say.
If that works in your world, great but to say that you are correct and the publishers of the game are wrong, is well, wrong IMHO.
-Well, that's where we disagree.
Now As I posted (did you read what I wrote?) I base this argument on what was written for the 3.x edition. I'm working off the latest edition's information (even though I've been running games in the Realms since it first came out.)
-Yes, understood. That information is inherently flawed, however official and canon it is.
When 4e come out this may change but I'm not interested in getting into what version got things "right" because there is no right/wrong. Faerun is a fictional place, created by the game designers of WotC/Hasbro (and before that TSR and before that Ed and others). So if they change their story from one edition to the next so be it. Choose to use what version you want for your personal game to to same one version is right and one is wrong doesn't fit IMO...
-All is true, but that doesn't magically make something that is inherently wrong right, or something that is inherently right wrong.
Also you have no idea if Forgotten Realms elves can evolve or not. Published info says that the subraces of elves came from Faerie, it never says if they where all once one race or all different races entirely.
-Of course I do. You do realize that I am the preeminent source concerning Elves on these boards, not to toot my own horn, correct? Published information says that the Elves of Faerûn came from Faerie, yes, but that is after Corellon Larethian and the rest of the Seldarine created them. The genesis of the Elves is tied not to evolution, but to divine intelligence, or whatever that other argument is titled. "Creationism". Again, Sharlario, the first Moon Elf to come to Faerûn, had pure, undiluted Moon Elf blood within him. He had multiple children, and these children are who became the Moon Elves. His first son, Corrnaith, was a mixture of his father's pure Moon Elf blood, and Sun Elven blood. Corrnaith is just as Moon Elven as his father was, dispite the parentage on his mother's side.
Maybe there where all one race at one point and evolved for unknown reasons.
-This is not possible, as Elves do not evolve. Aquatic Elves were created by Deep Sashelas, and continue to appear as the first Aquatic Elves did. Elves breed true- you either get a full blooded X Elf, or a full blooded Y Elf. It is not possible to be Half-X Elf, and Half-Y Elf.
What we do know is that Wood Elves and Wild Elves have different physical characteristics and different cultural backgrounds. That pretty much = an evolution in my book.
-Wood Elves and "Wild Elves" have different emphasizes' placed on different attributes and skills, but that hardly makes them different species or subraces. The tribesman from Burindi we were talking about is probably stronger than I am, as he has to brave the wilds of untamed Africa to survive. He'd pass on these qualities to his children, and their children would do the same, and so on. Likewise, I have more "streetsense" than this African tribesman, as I have lived in a big city all of my life. I'd pass these qualities on to my theoretical children, and their children would do the same, and so on. I am a **** Sapien. The african tribesman is a **** Sapien. There is no real genetic difference between the two of us.
-I believe you and me are just going to have to disagree, and leave it at that.
Didn't think things would get this out of hand when I went to bed last night.
OK, Karsus, I'm not going to keep running around the bush on this matter. Your points are valid, regardless of the validity of the reasons a stance is being made for them. My question as a result would be where canon becomes canon and where canon can be revised. In my mind, if a 3e version of a Moon Elf is written, then whatever was written about a 2e Moon Elf is super-ceded by the 3e version, excluding parts of the 2e version that supplement and do not contradict the 3e version.
Yes, I've read your point about mistakes sometimes being made, so I'm not talking about Ed Greenwood accidentally saying Eliminster's hair is purple after it has already been established as white. What I am saying is that that when an "official" game supplement comes out that revises something that was previously established in a prior version, why does it not become canon simply because you find it "incorrect" and contradictory with what you are happy with already being established?
My question as a result would be where canon becomes canon and where canon can be revised. In my mind, if a 3e version of a Moon Elf is written, then whatever was written about a 2e Moon Elf is super-ceded by the 3e version, excluding parts of the 2e version that supplement and do not contradict the 3e version.
-That would be correct. Newer sources take precident over older sources, when speaking of canon. As I demonstrated, however, being 'canon' and 'official' does not make something inherently 'correct', however. The 4e Forgotten Realms can claim (I'm making this up, don't worry) that Elminster never existed. The 'canon', 'official' Forgotten Realms would reflect this stance. That wouldn't change that claiming that Elminster never existed is wrong, however, as he did exist. I'm looking at a picture of him right now on Realms of Magic.
Yes, I've read your point about mistakes sometimes being made, so I'm not talking about Ed Greenwood accidentally saying Eliminster's hair is purple after it has already been established as white. What I am saying is that that when an "official" game supplement comes out that revises something that was previously established in a prior version, why does it not become canon simply because you find it "incorrect" and contradictory with what you are happy with already being established?
-Note how I never said that it is 'not canon'. It's 'not correct'. It is all 100% 3e canon, but it isn't correct. That's the difference. It's canon, but it's built on faulty grounds, making it incorrect, though, none the less, canon.
-Note how I never said that it is 'not canon'. It's 'not correct'. It is all 100% 3e canon, but it isn't correct. That's the difference. It's canon, but it's built on faulty grounds, making it incorrect, though, none the less, canon.
And yet, in this case, I would ask why, in the last month, I have heard you specifically state that we speak of canon here and not assumptive argument where it concerns what is being discussed?
As an example, you argue that Elves cannot evolve. But that is simply your opinion. AND NO, I am not diving back into that subject again. I'm just saying there is no basis for that. It is simply what you believe. Yet, you speak of it as if it is canon.
And yet, in this case, I would ask why, in the last month, I have heard you specifically state that we speak of canon here and not assumptive argument where it concerns what is being discussed?
-You are talking what I said out of context. That was said in response to those who discuss their own campaigns, and/or adapt things own campaigns, in leiu of discussing how said things effect the official Forgotten Realms.
As an example, you argue that Elves cannot evolve. But that is simply your opinion. AND NO, I am not diving back into that subject again. I'm just saying there is no basis for that. It is simply what you believe. Yet, you speak of it as if it is canon.
-No, it is not opinion. It is fact. Elves are created via "intelligent design". Deep Shashelas created the Aquatic Elves, having seen Corellon Larethian create the first Elves. He liked Corellon's creation, and did the same, making them aquatic creatures that could survive in his domain. Aerdrie Faenya did the same when creating the Avariel.
-When a Moon Elf and Sun Elf mate with each other, there is a 0% chance that the child of such a pairing is Half-Sun Elf and Half-Moon Elf. The child is either a Moon Elf, or a Sun Elf. When a Drow and a Sun Elf mate, there is a 0% chance that the child of such a paring is Half-Drow Elf and Half-Sun Elf. The child is either a Sun Elf, or a Drow Elf. Elven subraces breed true, this is fact. Thus, it is impossible for a unique and distinct subrace to appear based on these facts. A pairing between a Silver Elf and a Green Elf still results in either a Silver Elf or a Green Elf. It is not possible to produce a Half-Silver Elf, Half-Green Eld hybrid, as Races of Faerûn portrays Wood Elves to be.
-Elves of Faerûn has a section on this matter, and I implore anyone and everyone to read it.
I believe LK said that elves do not evolve because they were created by the Seldarine. In that case, weren't most of the mortal races of Faerun created by their respective pantheons and thus also do not evolve? I'd never thought of it that way before, but it could be an interesting dynamic to add to a Realms campaign.
-Of the races in the Player's Handbook (Humans, Half-Orcs, Half-Elves Elves, Halflings, Gnomes and Dwarves), we know that the origins of Elves, Halflings, Gnomes and Dwarves are divine, at least when it comes to the Forgotten Realms. Half-Orcs and Half-Elves stem from crosses between Humans and either Orcs (who also have a Divine origin) or Elves, and Humans...Well, that's a mystery that will forever be shrouded in mystery.
-Note that you never hear about Dwarves who are Half-Shield Dwarf and Half-Gold Dwarf, or Orcs that are Half-Mountain Orc and Half-Gray Orc, and so on...
Thanks for making me think about this stuff LK
Very cool stuff. I'm now pondering the connections between elves, humans, and orcs due to the fact that humans can cross-breed with the two races, lol.
Thanks for making me think about this stuff LK
-No problem.
-A very Tolkienesque connection theory would be that Gruumh created the first Orcs by corrupting and twisting Half-Elves, who did not have the full blessing of the Seldarine, and thus, the divine protection of the Seldarine, like full blooded Elves would have. I have something similar to this in my own campaign setting, though it explains the origins of the Drow, and not Orcs.
-No, it is not opinion. It is fact. Elves are created via "intelligent design". Deep Shashelas created the Aquatic Elves, having seen Corellon Larethian create the first Elves. He liked Corellon's creation, and did the same, making them aquatic creatures that could survive in his domain. Aerdrie Faenya did the same when creating the Avariel.
The races you mention were created by intelligent design. Nobody is disputing that.
But, until you point me to the source that specifically says "Elves cannot and do not evolve in anyway," then your statement that they can't is an opinion. All you have until that point is one half of the truth. The rest is open-ended speculation based on an opinionated view towards established fact.
Nobody knows that they can't evolve, there is just nothing there that says they can.
But, until you point me to the source that specifically says "Elves cannot and do not evolve in anyway," then your statement that they can't is an opinion. All you have until that point is one half of the truth. The rest is open-ended speculation based on an opinionated view towards established fact.
-I already have, multiple times. Elven subraces breed true. Pairing a Moon Elf with a Sun Elf yields either a Moon Elf, or a Sun Elf. Were evolution taking place, this pairing would yield a Half-Moon Elf, Half-Sun Elf. But, it doesn't, because Elves breed true. All Moon Elves on Faerûn can trace their origins back to Sharlario, the sole Moon Elf among the survivors of Tintageer. He reproduced with a Sun Elf, and had a Moon Elf son, Cornaith. Cornaith reproduced with a Sun Elf, and likely produced more Moon Elven children, for the race to continue to exist. And so on, and so forth, until you get to the current year. Had evolution been taking place, these Moon Elf-Sun Elf crossbreeds would increasingly take after the attributes of their Sun Elf parentage, as more and more Sun Elves diluted the Moon Elf blood until familial ties were wide enough for Moon Elves to breed with Moon Elves. But, they didn't. These children who came out as Moon Elves continued to take the attributes of their Moon Elven heritage, and not a mixture of the two. Thus, there is no evolution taking place. Favorable genes from both sides are not being passed on and taking dominance. That is what evolution is. Sun Elves living in the north do not change skin tones, to make them favorable to the colder weather. They retain their bronze complexion. Moon Elves in the south do not change skin tones, to make them favorable to the warmer weather. They retain their pale complexion.
Nobody knows that they can't evolve, there is just nothing there that says they can.
-Nobody knows that Elves don't lay eggs. Do they?
-I already have, multiple times....
You are speaking of interbreeding, which is not evolution. Interbreeding can play a part in evolution, but is not a mandatory aspect of its nature.
-Nobody knows that Elves don't lay eggs. Do they?
No, we don't. Therefore, nobody can truly say that they can't. All we can determine is that, at this time, Elves give birth to live offspring. That is fact. It is simply an opinion based on establish fact that says they can't and never will lay eggs. The whole concept is as absurd as thinking there are bird winged elves floating around somewhere.
You are speaking of interbreeding, which is not evolution. Interbreeding can play a part in evolution, but is not a mandatory aspect of its nature.
-Did you read my response? Especially the second portion of the first response.
No, we don't...
-We do, actually, but that's neither here nor there.
-Did you read my response? Especially the second portion of the first response.
Yes, I did:
Favorable genes from both sides are not being passed on and taking dominance. That is what evolution is.
This is not what evolution is, per say. At least when you mention "both sides." You role into this while still speaking of interbreeding. Therefore, I must assume that you are making that your argument.
And I assume this because you immediately responded with : "-I already have, multiple times. Elven subraces breed true."
This was not even what I was looking for and misconstrues the intent. I'm not concerned with Elves and their subraces, nor how they breed. I could easily use nearly any other race (providing you stayed away from the subrace issue). If Sun Elves were the only elves around, the point would remain the same. How do we know if they, or any other race cannot evolve given time and conditions.
You already explained how dominant genes rise to the occasion to adapt the species to their environment. Where does it say that a group of elves that retreated to the "deepest woodlands" and avoided all contact for 14,000 years can't evolve genetically and adapt physiology to fit into their new environment? Especially a race that is so magically adept?
-We do, actually, but that's neither here nor there.
It is if you make it part of your argument.
Look, I'm done. I see where you are coming from. And, as I said, you make valid points. I just don't believe you can say something isn't possible when--no matter how far fetched it may be--it is. Especially in a world of fantasy.
I just don't believe you can say something isn't possible when--no matter how far fetched it may be--it is. Especially in a world of fantasy.
-Everything, no matter how fantastical it is, follows a set of strict rules that are adhered to.
Seriously I am amazed how much like Arctan you are LK. It is creepy.;)
Does the Swordmage cast ranged spells at all? Does it look like he can cast expeditious retreat or other wizard spells?
Judge just let him get the last word in for all our sakes. It is how he likes it.
-That, and anything that argues that points I have made are incorrect.
Seriously I am amazed how much like Arctan you are LK. It is creepy.;)
-When people are certain of the validity of their statements, what do you expect? Those who aren't passionate enough to defend anything they say don't deserve the ability to formulate ideas.
Good times. Now back to the topic and not silly comic book store talk about who is better Superman or Batman.
Judge just let him get the last word in for all our sakes. It is how he likes it.
Seriously I am amazed how much like Arctan you are LK. It is creepy.;)
Does the Swordmage cast ranged spells at all? Does it look like he can cast expeditious retreat or other wizard spells?
Which is why I said I am done, Rauric. I understand that going back and forth about single topic with somebody who doesn't relent is pointless--which is why I tried to get away from the elf thing. I focused on three different topics of discussion--but they all reverted back to the original topic, despite what I had hoped to move on to.
Trust me, I don't like it either. I offer my apologies to you and everyone else for this lengthy debate, which turned out with no conclusion.
If I ended up looking like either of the two you mentioned--in at least bullheaded persistence, then I apologize again.
:surrender
Good times. Now back to the topic and not silly comic book store talk about who is better Superman or Batman.
-Not my fault you don't have the passion, will, fortitude, or whatever it is that these debates are full of.
Trust me, I don't like it either. I offer my apologies to you and everyone else for this lengthy debate, which turned out with no conclusion.
-There was a conclusion, so to speak, and more people (as in those who were reading) understand the Elven physiology. All in all, that's a good thing, as it leads to less "misknowledge" floating up there.
See Dookie? :heehee
Good times. Now back to the topic and not silly comic book store talk about who is better Superman or Batman.
You didn't need to point it out, my man. I knew that, even when I was replying to your post, he would. ;)
Superman...?
Batman...?
Dammit, Rauric!! Don't make me break out the fist-o-cuffs!!!
Anyway the swordmage factors into my first 4E PC so I am really curious about the concept. I hope the elf business did not scare away other people who were going to post on the subject. If so please come back!!!
I went to my Comic store today and they did not have Swordmage which irked me but they did have guys arguing about Secret Invasion and Final Crisis.
It is cool. I just think it is silly to bicker about fantasy and fictional things.
-Why? Because the ultimatley don't matter? Sure. But, they matter now, as in the present, as in the current debate at hand. We live in the present, not the future.
Can the Smage use something besides a sword I wonder? I guess it could be modified to do so huh?
-That is likely, because the Spellsword PrC specifically mentions that one can use weapons other than the sword. Spellswords that use spears are known as Spellspears, Spellswords that use axes are known as Spellaxes, and so on...
It is cool. I just think it is silly to bicker about fantasy and fictional things.
I agree with LK on this. That's why we are here. If you thought it was silly in the least, you wouldn't be a gamer.
It's good to bicker a bit about FR--just not take it to heart.
I agree with LK on this. That's why we are here. If you thought it was silly in the least, you wouldn't be a gamer.
Off I go.
The other preeminent scholars of Faerûn's Elves all collaborate with what I say.
Scholars. Of Faerûn's Elves.
You have just reached a new, previously unattainable level of geekdom. Congratulations.
Scholars. Of Faerûn's Elves.
You have just reached a new, previously unattainable level of geekdom. Congratulations.
-Thank you. If only everyone could invest so much time, effort and enegy into things they liked.
-Thank you. If only everyone could invest so much time, effort and enegy into things they liked.
Oh, now. That is straight up f*cking rare that I laugh in such a manner.
Thank you. ;)
Oh, And I meant Mula. ;)
I am a **** Sapien. The african tribesman is a **** Sapien. There is no real genetic difference between the two of us.
That's not exactly true. I understand the point you are trying to make, and by all means continue making it, however there are almost guaranteed genetic differences between you two. The likelihood of is that the tribesman would have sickle cell anemia (for example), a trait that a geneticist could see and say that the subject is most likely from Africa, without ever seeing the subject. The reason for this is human beings do evolve. Thus, you are going to have distinct differences in the way that humans behave genetically, and how elves behave genetically. So perhaps humans are not the best example for your argument.
That's not exactly true. I understand the point you are trying to make, and by all means continue making it, however there are almost guaranteed genetic differences between you two. The likelihood of is that the tribesman would have sickle cell anemia (for example), a trait that a geneticist could see and say that the subject is most likely from Africa, without ever seeing the subject. The reason for this is human beings do evolve. Thus, you are going to have distinct differences in the way that humans behave genetically, and how elves behave genetically. So perhaps humans are not the best example for your argument.
My man, I could have brought up this point a while back. And trust me, I appreciate that the point is made--but it wasn't made simply because of where it will go.
There is no point in it.
Don't get into something stupid or this thread is going to go from Swordmage to Swordtongue very quickly.
That's not exactly true. I understand the point you are trying to make, and by all means continue making it, however there are almost guaranteed genetic differences between you two. The likelihood of is that the tribesman would have sickle cell anemia (for example), a trait that a geneticist could see and say that the subject is most likely from Africa, without ever seeing the subject. The reason for this is human beings do evolve. Thus, you are going to have distinct differences in the way that humans behave genetically, and how elves behave genetically. So perhaps humans are not the best example for your argument.
-I did say there's no real genetic difference, conceding the point that there are minor differences between us, just like there are minor differences between the Moonflower clan and the Craulnobler clan. That said, though, I think that the gist of my point got across, bad example or not.
I'm as yet unaware of anywhere where it says that Elves can't evolve... never seen that anywhere. Divine creation doesn't and shouldn't have to equate to a static lifeform. If it says that somewhere, I'd like to know where. Seriously, I've always wondered where that notion came from.
-I already explained why in my previous posts, and rather aptly, I feel.
Ah, right. So, no real canon establishment that they do not evolve. Good to know. And don't even bother with the egg-laying example, it was a weak arguement in the first place. :P ;)
Yes. But it served its purpose.
So, no real canon establishment that they do not evolve.
-Since when does canon need to be size 20 font, read out loud to us, oh Master of Luminocity? ;)
And don't even bother with the egg-laying example, it was a weak arguement in the first place. :P ;)
-Yes, it was, especially since it is well documented that Elves do not lay eggs.
Yes. But it served its purpose.
-That it did.
In response to one comment made above, yes he does use at least one ranged spell (a flaming ball of some sort that seems to daze who it hits if I remember correct) during the course of the novel, though this answer might be best served in the other thread at this point
Cool. Thanks for the info. :D
-That it did.
Indeed. No matter how skewed a persons perspective may be. ;)
Indeed. No matter how skewed a persons perspective may be. ;)
:whatsthis
-Mmm hmm...
:whatsthis
-Mmm hmm...
Can I get a cup of that? :D
Canon hardly needs to be in size 20 font... nor does that have anything to do with the point. The existence of Wood Elves and their explanation in Races of Faerun points more towards evolution amongst them, so, good enough for me, as it suits my purposes to say that elves do indeed evolve. So, with a smallish retcon, we can just shoo that elves do not evolve arguement right out the door thank you very much. :P ;)
-Being as that it's built on faulty grounds, I cannot accept it. Canon, yes, the way it actually is, no. Much like what many people will be doing for 4e Forgotten Realms.
Canon hardly needs to be in size 20 font... nor does that have anything to do with the point. The existence of Wood Elves and their explanation in Races of Faerun points more towards evolution amongst them, so, good enough for me, as it suits my purposes to say that elves do indeed evolve. So, with a smallish retcon, we can just shoo that elves do not evolve arguement right out the door thank you very much. :P ;)
Or that they, say, evolve slowly. Elves live over hundreds of years, as such, evolution, such as other more short lived races know and understand, must take even longer for a long lived race such as the Elves.
As to being built on faulty grounds, one could just as easily say that previous lore was the faulty party, and unreliable in many ways, given the omniscient 3rd person point of view that 3e adopted, which gave us a clearer, unbiased picture of the ways things really were over previous editions, correct? ;)
As to being built on faulty grounds, one could just as easily say that previous lore was the faulty party, and unreliable in many ways, given the omniscient 3rd person point of view that 3e adopted, which gave us a clearer, unbiased picture of the ways things really were over previous editions, correct? ;)
-One could say that. 3e omniscient sources have collaborated, and thus, proved many of the 2e unreliable narrator sources, however. Sharlario Moonflower is named cannonically in 3e as the only Moon Elf of the settlement that would bear his namesake. The characteristics of Sharlario in Evermeet: Island of the Elves, in the 2e Elves of Evermeet, and 3e Races of Faerûn /FRCS all match as well.
An individual does not a entire race make...
-In this case, actually, no. He was the only Moon Elf on Faerûn. Every Moon Elf with any or some Moonflower blood (which encompasses quite a few Moon Elves and Sun Elves as well), can trace their ancestry back to Sharlario.
Which is geneology, not the evolution of a species or its subspecies.
-And, the fact that the subspecies has not changed from that depiction, though about 25,000 years have passed means...? Not to mention that the Green/Wood Elves did not change either, dispite spending 28,000 years in a completely new environment as well. Faerie =/= Abeir-Toril. Thus, if the species had been evolving, they would have been taking on differing characteristics from those that the Elves accustomed to Faerie had 25,000-28,000 years ago.
As to Wood elves, they have a significantly different physical description (although still basically elven in frame) from Green elves, so... there's something to think about in and of itself.
As a side note, by that logic, Coelecanths (sp?) shouldn't have remained relatively static over the millenia of their existance... just because a species is relatively static doesn't mean that it can't evolve, just that it doesn't have a particularly compelling biological reason to do so.
-Does Chicago have good coffee?
It did. But after everything turned to Venti Mocha Lahtti Cai Chipmunk half-soy that costs $6 a pop, I've pretty much stopped drinking it. Unless, that is, it comes out of a Folgers can.
And i have discovered the truth behind the Wood Elf Evolution.:
After the Crown Wars, many elves retreated deep into the darkest woods. There, unsuspectingly, they were captured by the Great God Bejebuz, where for untold centuries, he forced them to eat genetically altering tacos. His zesty hot sauce changed the pigment of their skin and his spicy personality made them more aloof than the other elves. His secret ingredients did other things.
When Bejebuz felt he had finally created the perfect, funky do-right tree hugger, he released them back into civilization.
It has all been answered now. We can move on, reassured that all is right in the world.
-And, the fact that the subspecies has not changed from that depiction, though about 25,000 years have passed means...? Not to mention that the Green/Wood Elves did not change either, dispite spending 28,000 years in a completely new environment as well. Faerie =/= Abeir-Toril. Thus, if the species had been evolving, they would have been taking on differing characteristics from those that the Elves accustomed to Faerie had 25,000-28,000 years ago.
You are thinking WAY TOO HARD about this. They haven't really evolved because this is Dungeons & Dragons. Nothing evolves in Dungeons & Dragons - it's a RPG focused on killing things and taking their phat lewt.
The generational gap is just too large. In the example of 25,000 years you would have:
Elven Gernerrations: Between 35 - 50
Human Generations: 1,000+
Can't compare that way. You would need to put in about 450,000 more years for the elves to equal the two out if just comapring a 25,000 year span for humans. So one could say that Elves may very well indeed, time just hasn't gone far enough to show it yet. One could also say that Elves will not evolve. I believe that case would be easier to make if Elves were immortal, but they are not.
In the end, it just depends on what has been written up until this point. If you go by real world mechanics, the Elves just havn't been given enough time in the timeline to show much, if any change in an evolutionary scale.
That's not that much time for an evolutionary change, considering the lifespans of elves... humans, sure, pretty long time, but not really for elves. Beyond that, physical description doesn't mean much. Dental structure, organs functioning slightly differently, subtle alterations to height and weight ranges that aren't obvious over the timespan... things most wouldn't really note or think much of are the way it would probably work over some obvious radical alteration.
-Elves aren't Humans, Stigger. We don't know how much theoretical time they would need to adapt and evolve, if they did posess the ability to evolve. The fact that they virtually immediatley were able to attune themselves to the Weave, having left Faerie and it's natural "magical aura", demonstrates that, if evolution were to take place, it would happen fairly rapidly. 28,000 years should be more than enough for some of the more modest, substle changes. And yes, they are not present.
As to Wood elves, they have a significantly different physical description (although still basically elven in frame) from Green elves, so... there's something to think about in and of itself.
-Not particularly, no. Not anything more "shocking" than the differences between, say, a native Northern Italian and a native Southern Italian.
As a side note, by that logic, Coelecanths (sp?) shouldn't have remained relatively static over the millenia of their existance... just because a species is relatively static doesn't mean that it can't evolve, just that it doesn't have a particularly compelling biological reason to do so.
-Coelecanths are not Elves. I know nothing about them. That said, I can't comment on anything involving them.
You are thinking WAY TOO HARD about this. They haven't really evolved because this is Dungeons & Dragons. Nothing evolves in Dungeons & Dragons - it's a RPG focused on killing things and taking their phat lewt.
-Oh, yeah, I should definitley dumb myself down for the sake of whatever.
Disclaimer: Elven deities do not actually act and talk like fraternity people.
Sometime after the Crown Wars, on Arvandor...
Solonor: (knocks on Corellon's bedroom door) Yo C.L.! Got a minute?
Corellon: (sleepily) Need something S.T.?
Solonor: (enters) Yeah. Can I get my own subrace?
Corellon: (thinks) ...I guess so.
At the foot of Corellon's bed, Sehanine sticks her head out from under the covers.
Sehanine: (yawns) How you gonna do that?
Solonor: There's these small bands of different elves living together now, spread all over the place. I figure I'll just allow them to crossbreed for a while.
Hanali emerges next to Sehanine.
Hanali: (half-asleep) Who are you guys talking to?
Solonor: Oooooookay... Now all that's missing is-
Aerdrie: (entering the room) I found more booze!
Solonor: (rolls eyes) Never mind. Soooo... Can I ask what-
Corellon: Dude. Did you watch the last few millennia?
Solonor: Ugh. Don't remind me. Were you celebrating the end of the Wars, or trying to forget it all?
Corellon & the gals: Both!
:P
-Elves aren't Humans, Stigger. We don't know how much theoretical time they would need to adapt and evolve, if they did posess the ability to evolve. The fact that they virtually immediatley were able to attune themselves to the Weave, having left Faerie and it's natural "magical aura", demonstrates that, if evolution were to take place, it would happen fairly rapidly. 28,000 years should be more than enough for some of the more modest, substle changes. And yes, they are not present.
As I, and others, have said, 28,000 years isn't much at all for a species with the lifespan of an elf. And the ability to adapt to the Weave versus whatever it was that was in Faerie is inherently magical in nature, not necessarily biological. Beyond that, given the apparent involvement that the Faerie had in Faerun, its not unreasonable to assume that the Weave and Faerie were at least somewhat compatible on some level.
And yes, I'm aware they aren't humans. That was fairly obvious from the whole different name for their species :P. But it is fairly obvious that they are alive, and living things 'evolve' to adapt to their environment, or they die out fairly quickly (geological scale of time, not 'human'). Toss in their ability to interbreed with other species, and you end up with the conclusion that they are indeed biological in nature and at least close enough genetically with humans (among others) to interbreed. And yes, I'm aware of the "well, they're magical creatures and that science can't be applied to them" arguement, but to be honest, I don't really accept that as particularly valid, since it allows us (rhetorical) to say pretty much anything we want without having a baseline of 'reality' to start from, and discussions break down rather rapidly into my (rhetorical) version of magic trumps your (rhetorical) version of magic.
-Not particularly, no. Not anything more "shocking" than the differences between, say, a native Northern Italian and a native Southern Italian.
Or the difference between a moon elf or a sun elf... and its not a particularly shocking difference between any of the elven subraces (except for avarial and sea elves of course, possibly drow depending) really in the same respect, at least physically.
-Coelecanths are not Elves. I know nothing about them. That said, I can't comment on anything involving them.
Fish... fish that were supposed to be extinct for millions of years until it was discovered that they were indeed still around and being used as a food source by the natives. From all appearances, they hadn't changed much from the fossils we have of them. Evolution doesn't occur if there's no reason for it to occur is the point there. There's a solid reason for every biological change a species goes through, even if that change doesn't stand up to the test of time, as it were.
As I, and others, have said, 28,000 years isn't much at all for a species with the lifespan of an elf.
-No, not particularly, no. That said, evolution is always happening, and it is only after long stretches of time can we measure it. Look at Human beings only 100 years ago. Shorter, for the most part, than people now. Slow evolution of the species, based on the premise of passed down favored (being tall) genetic matter. Again, Moon Elves of today have the same stats (D&D and otherwise) of Sharlario Moonflower. Sharlario Moonflower came from the world of Faerie, a different world with different characteristics than Faerûn. Moon Elves continue to share his stats (D&D and otherwise).
And yes, I'm aware they aren't humans. That was fairly obvious from the whole different name for their species :P.
-Dur dee dur dee dur...:P
...and discussions break down rather rapidly into my (rhetorical) version of magic trumps your (rhetorical) version of magic.
-Being who I am, of course, my version trumps yours. :P
-As I said earlier, the preeminent scholars of Faerûnian Elven lore had a debate on this, and we all came to the same conclusion.
Or the difference between a moon elf or a sun elf... and its not a particularly shocking difference between any of the elven subraces (except for avarial and sea elves of course, possibly drow depending) really in the same respect, at least physically.
-Drow appear as they do for obvious reasons.
Evolution doesn't occur if there's no reason for it to occur is the point there.
-Alright, what's the problem, then?
As to this scholarly conclusion, interestingly, many scholars bought into things like the Piltdown Man, years of hilarious-in-hindsight primatological theories, and some downright bizarre anthropological theories about non-European peoples. You'll forgive me if I don't take that debate too seriously. ;)
Depends with Drow, as they may have undergone further changes due to the Faezress (or however that's spelled) thing affecting them. Depends on how you look at that.
The problem is that there's a vast difference between saying elves have no reason to evolve on Faerun, and saying that something is incapable of evolving without divine intervention, which I gather is the crux of your assumptions about Elven division into subraces.
I just wish I had something constructive to add.I'll keep following it until it dies off.
Damn, Stig...never seen you type this much.
Not that rare, just not usually on this particular board. :P
-Oh, yeah, I should definitley dumb myself down for the sake of whatever.
You can speculate all you want, but I'm right.
I'd just like to say that, in spite of the fact that this thread started off as something completely different, I'm finding the current discussion fascinating
I'll keep following it until it dies off.
As long as what's being added is constructive, that is. When it becomes ***-for-tat, then there is no point in continuing.
Not that rare, just not usually on this particular board. :P
(sniff) Stigger has a personality!! I'm so happy.
Yes, and a handy spell to make everything you eat taste like brussel sprouts on a permanent basis as well. :evillaugh :P
A bad or good thing largely dependant on one's love (or lackthereof) for brussel sprouts ;)
Oh, I wouldn't bother casting it on anyone but JD...
Abusive parents couldn't even get me to eat my veggies, so I doubt you could. I imagine I would get something, like, +20 to my save on that alone. Add in an extra +10 for my favor with Bejebuz over you and another +10 or so for my favor over darkness compared to light, and I think you would be hard pressed to make your wicked spell overcome me.
Besides, even if you did manage to succeed, I would be forced to retaliate by summoning forth Bejebuz's Slap Happy Burrito and pummel you senseless. :D
No save on it, sorry... it doesn't actually affect you directly, just everything around you, with subtle alterations to the chemical structure to give you that lovely taste... you didn't actually think I was going to give you a way out of it, did you? :P :evillaugh
Then you under estimate the spicy and zesty sauce that is Bejebuz!! I'd chew a friggin' log happy enough with a lil' of Bejebuz's picante' on it.
So make the world taste like Brussels sprouts. I'll manage for the duration.
But you're still getting smacked upside the head with a steak filled burrito. ;)
Sorry. Can't do that. I'm too bizzy tellin' myself how frikkin' fly I look shakin' this ass.
*sings off-key* "JudgeDookie's milkshake brings all the boys to the yard, and they're like, it's better then your's."
:P
:P
:D
I do believe that discussing JD's behind is even more off topic than usual!
:P
:D
I don't care if its off topic, just make sure you stay off my ass.
I was NEVER on it, my man!
:P
:D
Whoah!
I was NEVER on it, my man!
:P
:D
Well, that's good. I'm sorry, man. I simply have to be sure. You do have that Y chromosome. Despite the fact that you're an X-man.
You can never be too careful in such matters.
Hate to tell you, but that height thing has more to do with nutrition than evolution.
-With Elves, the fac
As to this scholarly conclusion, interestingly, many scholars bought into things like the Piltdown Man, years of hilarious-in-hindsight primatological theories, and some downright bizarre anthropological theories about non-European peoples. You'll forgive me if I don't take that debate too seriously. ;)
-Again, no knowledge, so I cannot comment.
Depends with Drow, as they may have undergone further changes due to the Faezress (or however that's spelled) thing affecting them. Depends on how you look at that.
-Yes, which is why I mentioned how Drow are a "special" case.
The problem is that there's a vast difference between saying elves have no reason to evolve on Faerun, and saying that something is incapable of evolving without divine intervention, which I gather is the crux of your assumptions about Elven division into subraces.
-Had they the ability to evolve, it would have begun happening, however minute.
You can speculate all you want, but I'm right.
-Of course....
-Of course....
I can also tell you why displacer beasts haven't evolved. Or dinosaurs (in the Realms I mean). Or phantom fungi.
Can you guess my answer?
Can you guess my answer?
-Because you touch yourself at night?
I don't know what you mean, but the answer is that phat lewt rulez D&D.
-Close enough, I guess. The original statement was a reference to the television show Family Guy, by the way.
Hey, maybe the moon-sun-wild elven mixture that produced wood elves was magical in nature because elves are magical and stuff.
Hey, maybe the moon-sun-wild elven mixture that produced wood elves was magical in nature because elves are magical and stuff.
-Were that the case, then Sharlario's descendents would have been Moon-Sun mixtures, and they weren't.
-With Elves, the fac
Can't even begin to parse that one...
-Again, no knowledge, so I cannot comment.
You're scaring me here LK... what are they teaching you kids in school these days I wonder.
-Had they the ability to evolve, it would have begun happening, however minute.
And, we have no idea that it isn't the case. It almost assuredly is actually, considering that their diet almost certainly changed during the migration. I find it hard to believe that their dental structure and some internal organs haven't changed at least somewhat to accomodate that change. Not necessarily a gross physical change, but a change nonetheless if its true. Somehow I doubt that particular sort of change is ever going to be covered in a novel or sourcebook though for some bizarre reason.
i was just wondering.. is anyone else confused as to how Geran had the ability to cast light? for some reason that seemed really strange to me.. also i do enjoy the book very much, i am currently on chapter 8 and loving the story.. also did anyone else cross-reference his powers with the forgotten realms players guide? i find it interesting to see that at a minimum Geran is level 12..:D
it's interesting, i was looking at that.. and it still doesn't give you the class feature to cast light. i have a feeling the book was done before the final playtesting was completed on the class.. maybe light was removed. lol
The way the Swordmage Warding class feature works, the use of the spellbook, and many of the powers/spells are different. In my opinion, the differences were pretty significant. I like the finalized version of the Swordmage class much better than the iteration presented in the novel.
That said, it's a good novel. I look forward to the rest of the series, which I'll read once it hits paperback.
I may be treading old ground, here, but I skipped up to date after page 3, as the thread had meandered a bit:
I noticed some discussion concerning a potential relationship between the Bladesinger tradition and the Swordmage. Geran, the main protaganist, considered himself far inferior to the true masters of magic and steel, the elves who trained him, among them Bladesingers. He seems to distinguish between his blade-magic, and the Bladesinger tradition. This, of course, implies that Rich Baker and the 4E FR team intended the two to be distinct.
I'm confident we will eventually see that Bladesinger Paragon path. Perhaps it will appear in Arcane Power next April. Swordmage would be an obvious starting class for such a character, but not necessarily the only option. I also don't see any reason for the Paragon Path to be open to non-fey. There are now many Paragon Paths that are race-specific.
Maybe this is a moot point for most, but I'm happy that the two are distinct.