But in 4E, teleports become 10-min cast rituals ("portals"), they're linked (at lower levels) to "landing pads" of a sort (permanent ritual circles in known locations... not sure how to make one of those yet), and they are somewhat expensive and require special chalks and material components (135gp). A non-location-linked group teleport ("true portal") ritual not only takes a long time to cast (10 min), but requires 50,000gp in materials.
Comparing with 3E rules, where you could teleport quickly and cheaply (and perhaps most notably, enemy wizards would), how do you see this change affecting your 4E game? Is it a big deal or not, particularly for the Forgotten Realms?
Personally, I think it would be - especially for the Realms - where people relied on this kind of movement all the time, not only for personal use but also for trade and army movement. What do you think? More reliance on those really old, permanent portals that are scattered about Faerun?
Also, I meant to put "for the Realms" in the thread title, I just forgot.
I'm curious how people will deal with this change specifically in the Realms, not just generally.
Well we already have an example of an NPC that has a refuge-like ritual. And yes I think that more dependency on portals and normal modes of travel is a big part of 4E. For one thing the change in teleportation invalidates the scry-teleport mentality of 3.5 which is among the more lamented features of the ruleset.
I don't know if I'd say lamented, as I sort of liked the idea... but I agree that normal modes of travel become far more important. More opportunity to get encounters along roads and the like, I'd imagine, as most people don't have easy access to teleportation (and perhaps only the wealthy and powerful might jealously guard ancient portals).
Makes me wonder how all those old permanent portals are holding up, magically, in a post-spellplague world. Perhaps many are no longer trustworthy, or may have become even dangerous.
And honestly I think that permanent portals made by older civilizations becoming more important in actual gameplay and not just in lore can really help improve a campaign and set a more specific to the setting mood.
That's probably true... suddenly, those old (perhaps faltering?) portals become more mysterious? Maybe more "special" because they're not just a remnant of an old civilization but represent something that's lost or really hard to do in the current age? People might tend to really guard those that they find?
I think that portals have always been widely guarded.
Some, definitely. But there's always a new story about someone finding a relatively forgotten one. ;)
We still don't know how many portals were destroyed when the Nexus collapsed and certainly the Spellplague would shut down several others, but portal magic has always been considered rather stable. I imagine portals created by experts on the craft, like Ghaatil ritual elven gates, batrachi buchara spires and imaskari portals (including whatever Halaster made) may all still be around and kicking.
Possibly. I recall Rich Baker saying (in the "Ask..." thread) that portals would be used a lot less in 4E Realms, though. I imagine that probably means the destruction of the Nexus closed down a huge number of them. And then, as you say, with the Spellplague, even more.
Partly, I sort of like the idea of "damaged" portals. Those that might work, or they could fizzle out and send you somewhere random, or they might not work most of the time - or even cause only damage if you try to walk through them.
I'm not familiar with "Ghaatil" portals... where are those detailed, and how do they differ from regular portals?
In Greenwood's recent novels, which are pre-Spellplague, there's interesting lore on why people of the Realms don't tend to use portals... not only because of stability issues, but also because of ancient guardian creatures and random loss of items in some cases. For post-Spellplague portals, I'd imagine both would be worse.
As for damaged portals I do like them as long as they are not used as lame excuses for the DM to manipulate the plot. Those portals that scatter the party or strip them from their items for instance might seem like great concepts, but in most cases they will just cause frustration in gameplay. Still portals that are open only intermittently and maybe need to be fed with spells and power to stay open do sound interesting. For instance maybe you can feature a portal that requires someone to expend an arcane daily to remain open (and then would only remain open for 1,2 or 3 rounds depending on the tier of the power?) or even portals that consume healing surges to work, or that require complex rituals (as in a skill challenge) to be activated.
If a DM can't deal with the fact that players will change what he planned (I don't plan, except for the most minimum required) when he least expects it then he shouldn't DM. Scry+Teleport can be denied by many means. Teleport is an excelent tool to return to the PCs home without having to suffer the land travel that becomes very old when PCs can teleport.
The forced use of teleportation circles gives resources that should be managed by players to DMs, and that's something I don't like, because it gives them the power to railroad the plot as much as he wants, and PCs will not be able to fight it.
You mean the linked portal, where players arrive at "landing pads" (sort of)?
Yeah, I'm not too fond of that either, but more for a different reason. It's identical to Warcraft mage teleporting. I don't mind the general idea of a linked portal, especially for perhaps the lowest level of a teleport spell... but wizards don't get un-linked portals until they're really high level. And then the expense... yowza!
I don't really like giving PCs powers, then making them so expensive (in either money or XP costs) that a player won't really ever use it.
If a DM can't deal with the fact that players will change what he planned (I don't plan, except for the most minimum required) when he least expects it then he shouldn't DM. Scry+Teleport can be denied by many means. Teleport is an excelent tool to return to the PCs home without having to suffer the land travel that becomes very old when PCs can teleport.
Yes, or a means for a wizard to quickly get emergency supplies in the middle of something (assuming s/he has 2 spells prepared). The linked part removes that option entirely.
So nothing really changed all that much.
That being said I would house rule that most portals are no longer reliable and a large portion of them may cease to function at all.
I can understand the idea behind putting in all these restrictions to easily abused abilities, but to me it seems like yet another case of that loud and stupid (abusive players, not DM's complaining) 5% ruining it for the rest of us. That's my feeling on it anyway, though I've nothing concrete to back that up beyond anecdotal observations.
-Speaking about D&D as a game, I don't see how turning the spell into a 10-minute ritual is going to help DMs, though. Sure, there won't be teleportation in and out of combat (though, in the games I've been in, this was something that has never happened, as in something the PCs do), but troubles about characters teleporting into the BBEGs lair and throwing the campaign off balance and whatever else still exist.
No more quick-teleport escapes for enemy spellcasters, apparently. ;)
-Magic items. When/If the DM/author wants it to happen, it'll happen.
-Magic items. When/If the DM/author wants it to happen, it'll happen.
Players will complain because they will not be able to do the same.
And to block scry/teleport: dozens of ways exists in the rules to prevent it. Starting with Nondetection, Mind Blank, the series of spells that delay teleporting, anti-magic, interdiction, etc.
As well it limits some of the more high-magic silliness. After all, if it's so easy just to create portals / teleport for trade, rather than have caravans and what not - why isn't everyone who can afford it doing it?
Maybe it's just me then. I've always loved having PC's travel overland - either by horse, foot, boat, or some other method. It opens up so many opportunities to introduce new things that they can encounter along their travels. It also tends to keep the campaign focused in a general region of the world.
-As a DM who introduced a Spelljammer into his campaign, I can attest to this. The PCs fly everywhere, unless where ever it is that they are headed is landbound and landlocked. So, that Giant Crab I created for them to tangle with? Nope...
Maybe it's just me then. I've always loved having PC's travel overland - either by horse, foot, boat, or some other method. It opens up so many opportunities to introduce new things that they can encounter along their travels. It also tends to keep the campaign focused in a general region of the world.
As well it limits some of the more high-magic silliness. After all, if it's so easy just to create portals / teleport for trade, rather than have caravans and what not - why isn't everyone who can afford it doing it?
It gets boring.
-As a DM who introduced a Spelljammer into his campaign, I can attest to this. The PCs fly everywhere, unless where ever it is that they are headed is landbound and landlocked. So, that Giant Crab I created for them to tangle with? Nope...
Amusingly, mine do that as well with a skyship... though its given me tons of opportunity to introduce them to a few flying monsters along the way... among other things.
But I do agree with the idea that travel that was too fast could get very much out of hand unless it was reigned in a bit. Nothing that wasn't easily solved by an agreeable player who took care of it in-game, but for a few weeks I was wracking my brain on how to fix things without screwing the players over.
Amusingly, mine do that as well with a skyship... though its given me tons of opportunity to introduce them to a few flying monsters along the way... among other things.
At the risk of taking my own thread on a tangent... the loss of Halruaan skyships is huge.
Indeed, but no reason why a few couldn't have survived somewhere in storage... or someone could figure out how to get them to work again. Not the same thing, but the potential is still there if you're willing to let it be as a DM.
Amusingly, mine do that as well with a skyship... though its given me tons of opportunity to introduce them to a few flying monsters along the way... among other things.
-With the speed the vessel travels, I never thought of that, but I'll look into it...
Did the skyship fleets necessarily crash? Considering they are planning to make the Halruaans mercenary mages I think them still having skyships would be ideal. Transportation is extremely important part of any mercenary activity.
Well, quite a few of them were probably in transit or at destination ports when the Spellplague hit. As to whether the ability to create new ships survived the destruction of Halruaa, it's possible a few Halruaan wizards were not in their country when it blew up... and some may have survived the 'plague and the following years to save that knowledge. I guess we'll know when August rolls around.
For example: The PC's refuse to listen to an NPC who tries to convince them that the Spine of the World is dangerous and impassable. They refuse to listen, hearing of hidden riches on the other side. So they prepare to travel across the Spine of the World, only to be trapped in a freak snow storm.
The only refuge for the next month is a tiny cramp cave that barely has enough room for their horses. Then their rations run out. They have to kill one of the horses to eat. Then having the wizard get frostbite on his fingers, and having to cut them off in order to survive - then listening to him bemoan the loss of his fingers as the rest of the group promises to help him grow them back as soon as they reach civilization. Meanwhile, they plot behind his back, agreeing that he's the first to die if they run out of horses to eat before they can begin to travel again.
In the end having them realize that they only survive due to a lucky break with an exiled Uthgart Barbarian, who teaches them how to survive (and even thrive) in the snow covered wilderness. Knowledge that will be useful in the future.
You could never do that with a simple teleportation - unless you had it go wrong on purpose - in which case you look like a b*stard. Being an adventurer is more than just about monster slaying, it is surviving the environment as well.
That's why you harry them with panic from scouts from Uthgart Barbarians, Orcs and Goblins as the Wizard tries to keep up Endure Elements. Eventually, he'll be worn down - that's when the frostbite happens and he loses his fingers. Then he has to deal with some spell failure.
Oh yes, and the white dragons. No - no need to attack them with one of them. It's much more fun for them to see the shadow and hear it flying overhead, circling occasionally looking for food, and always anticipate an attack that never happens, leaving them constantly on edge.
Alediran,
That's why you harry them with panic from scouts from Uthgart Barbarians, Orcs and Goblins as the Wizard tries to keep up Endure Elements. Eventually, he'll be worn down - that's when the frostbite happens and he loses his fingers. Then he has to deal with some spell failure.
Oh yes, and the white dragons. No - no need to attack them with one of them. It's much more fun for them to see the shadow and hear it flying overhead, circling occasionally looking for food, and always anticipate an attack that never happens, leaving them constantly on edge.
Still it's boring. And Endure Elements last 24 hours, not that hard to keep it running all the time.
I'm sorry Alediran but the comment that only FR can provide adventures with mystery and many-layered plots is so ignorant.
Not at all, I've read most D&D settings and not one of them gives me that same feeling.
Then your DM uses it wrong. You don't even have to have encounters while traveling, or if you do, you don't actually have to play them out. I mean, generally speaking, it might take slightly longer as the DM describes what your PC saw as he traveled across the land:
"As you traveled from X to Y, it was largely uneventful. You encountered a few goblin raiders that may have been part of a larger tribe, but you dealt with them easily enough. It might be a good idea to make a report to the local authority to inform them of possible troubles involving goblins - it's that time of year again - in the near future. Outside of the goblins you encountered there were many Ilmateri faithful on the road, heading south to some type of pilgrimage. You now stand at the gates of Y. It's taken you eight days to make it here."
The group is then free to play out either or both of those encounters if they want, to learn more - if it grabs their interest - or simply ask questions. After that, you just proceed as normally would had you teleported.
Ta-da. Overland travel accomplished. The passage of time in this way is also a good thing because it allows your BEGG or some other group to advance their goals while the PC's travel. It ensures that things are constantly changing. You might leave Town X and return a year later to find that your favorite Inn burned to the ground, or that the town is now filled with refugees from a neighboring village as orcs pillage the countryside, for example. Teleportation and portals, when used in excess, tend to kill the flavor. I only like to see them used when you need to travel a long distance in a very short amount of time, and even then it's more fun when you have to use a long abandoned portal that may or may not work exactly as planned.
Oh well that explains in part why you are so cosy on teleportation. I love encounters on transport. One of the best encounters in our long running campaign was probably a running battle with my players riding a whale bard on a current down the Pythan Trench chased by kraken and morkoth. Between the cold, the pressure, the spells and the constant motion, it really can keep people on edge.
That gaming session would've been fun to see in person, I bet.
"There's a... a kraken?!" **AIIEEEE!!!!!**
Alediran,
Then your DM uses it wrong. You don't even have to have encounters while traveling, or if you do, you don't actually have to play them out. I mean, generally speaking, it might take slightly longer as the DM describes what your PC saw as he traveled across the land:
"As you traveled from X to Y, it was largely uneventful. You encountered a few goblin raiders that may have been part of a larger tribe, but you dealt with them easily enough. It might be a good idea to make a report to the local authority to inform them of possible troubles involving goblins - it's that time of year again - in the near future. Outside of the goblins you encountered there were many Ilmateri faithful on the road, heading south to some type of pilgrimage. You now stand at the gates of Y. It's taken you eight days to make it here."
The group is then free to play out either or both of those encounters if they want, to learn more - if it grabs their interest - or simply ask questions. After that, you just proceed as normally would had you teleported.
And what would happen if your players decide to do the encounters and get TPK? Your story suddenly gets a paradox.
Ta-da. Overland travel accomplished. The passage of time in this way is also a good thing because it allows your BEGG or some other group to advance their goals while the PC's travel. It ensures that things are constantly changing. You might leave Town X and return a year later to find that your favorite Inn burned to the ground, or that the town is now filled with refugees from a neighboring village as orcs pillage the countryside, for example. Teleportation and portals, when used in excess, tend to kill the flavor. I only like to see them used when you need to travel a long distance in a very short amount of time, and even then it's more fun when you have to use a long abandoned portal that may or may not work exactly as planned.
The Realms move fast enought to have changes in a matter of days instead of years, no need to wait for a year.
That gaming session would've been fun to see in person, I bet.
"There's a... a kraken?!" **AIIEEEE!!!!!**
In the end of the campaign they had to fight an aspect of Dagon. That scared them more than the kraken.
Excessive use of teleportation makes the game like a bad CRPG when the party just clicks on the next location and just appears there later.
Not at all, that's how high-level spellcasters with access to magical travel act in FR, they need to move constantly to keep things working the way they want. If they had to spend a month to travel from A to B then they wouldn't be able to maintain their projects without needing to use more people that has more chance to fail, because they will never be as familiar as the spellcaster with the importance of what they are doing
Still it's boring. And Endure Elements last 24 hours, not that hard to keep it running all the time.
Do you really think you're going to beat a DM who is determined to make you experience the difficulties of crossing the Spine of the World?
"As dusk settles over the mountain and all of you are huddled together, shivering in your cave for warmth, you hear the guttural sounds of several orcs not far from the entrance. It seems as if you aren't the only ones seeking shelter in this storm..."
Uh-oh. Orc Scouts and one of them happens to be a Sorcerer with lesser dispel. Who targets you, the wizard, naturally, and dispels you. Your endure elements is now gone - thankfully it persists on everyone else... for now.
Of course, the temperature drops dramatically as dusk turns to night - and you are out of castings of endure elements. That's when frostbite sets in.
Really, you can't beat a persistent DM.
Do you really think you're going to beat a DM who is determined to make you experience the difficulties of crossing the Spine of the World?
"As dusk settles over the mountain and all of you are huddled together, shivering in your cave for warmth, you hear the guttural sounds of several orcs not far from the entrance. It seems as if you aren't the only ones seeking shelter in this storm..."
Uh-oh. Orc Scouts and one of them happens to be a Sorcerer with lesser dispel. Who targets you, the wizard, naturally, and dispels you. Your endure elements is now gone - thankfully it persists on everyone else... for now.
Of course, the temperature drops dramatically as dusk turns to night - and you are out of castings of endure elements. That's when frostbite sets in.
Really, you can't beat a persistent DM.
I'm not that stupid, A Ring of Endure elements is cheap. I never leave home without one of those. I have years of experience playing Wizards and I know how to prepare for a lot of situations. And elves have more resistance to those enviroments than other races.
There is a way to beat that kind of DMs. Denounce him as a DM who holds a grudge against your character, and except for specific circumstances, the other players will side with you because they could be next. The only DM who tried that with me had to cancel his game by lack of players and is still unable to find players that play his games more than a couple sessions two years later.
And what would happen if your players decide to do the encounters and get TPK? Your story suddenly gets a paradox.
No it doesn't. They died and never arrived at their destination. Time to create new PC's. Besides, if a DM is just going to have the PC's skip over an encounter it is almost surely an encounter that they are going to win very, very easily. Even with the worst tactics and planning ever.
The Realms move fast enought to have changes in a matter of days instead of years, no need to wait for a year.
The Realms doesn't change -that- fast. It doesn't change any faster than the real world. Ignoring the odd catastrophe and what not, of course. Just look at the time lines. Wars aren't normally settled in a matter of days or months, they take years.
No it doesn't. They died and never arrived at their destination. Time to create new PC's. Besides, if a DM is just going to have the PC's skip over an encounter it is almost surely an encounter that they are going to win very, very easily. Even with the worst tactics and planning ever.
They can still be killed and what you said about the trip suddenly is false.
The Realms doesn't change -that- fast. It doesn't change any faster than the real world. Ignoring the odd catastrophe and what not, of course. Just look at the time lines. Wars aren't normally settled in a matter of days or months, they take years.
Not talking about those kinds of changes.
I'm not that stupid, A Ring of Endure elements is cheap. I never leave home without one of those. I have years of experience playing Wizards and I know how to prepare for a lot of situations. And elves have more resistance to those enviroments than other races.
There is a way to beat that kind of DMs. Denounce him as a DM who holds a grudge against your character, and except for specific circumstances, the other players will side with you because they could be next. The only DM who tried that with me had to cancel his game by lack of players and is still unable to find players that play his games more than a couple sessions two years later.
So any DM who doesn't immediately bend to your way, and ensure your character ease of victory will be denounced to the point that you'll plot behind their backs to ensure that they never are able to run a game again?
Tell me you aren't one of those players who constantly wines at the table whenever something bad happens to their PC, or someone who starts an argument over stuff like: "My PC has X amount of Intelligence and therefore he should have been able to foresee Y."
Those types of players annoy me to no end, and will likely find themselves kicked out of the game. Then again, I don't normally tend to be very soft and accommodating. If you screw up and die, then you just screw up and die. I hate the thought of raise / resurrection. Adventuring is a tough and dangerous business. If you want an easy life stay on the farm. You might not become rich or have a great deal of "fun" but at least you'd remain safe (relatively speaking).
Alediran-
The DM is going to know every spell you have prepared and know your character inside out. They are going to know every item in your possession. If a DM wanted to be lame, they could just rule the entire mountain you are trying to cross is a dead magic zone.
There is a difference between enduring hardship and a DM trying to screw you over, that much should be obvious - the DM can't let the Wizard maintain the ease of using magic to block the cold thus defeating the environment when the entire point is to make clear: The Spine of the World is dangerous and deadly. As well it is all necessary to introduce the PC's to the barbarian who teaches them how to survive in cold wilderness - information that will help them when they actually make it across. Unless they endure the hardship they're much less likely to take the information to heart.
If someone tells you that the Spine of the World is dangerous and impassable, then you go anyway, whose fault is it that you end up trapped on a mountain enduring great hardship?
They can still be killed and what you said about the trip suddenly is false.
Does it matter? Not really. They're dead.
If it nags at you so badly, you can simply break it up into the following:
"You run into some goblin raiders. Do you want to play out this encounter or just assume you've defeated them and keep moving?"
"You run into some Ilmateri pilgrims heading south. Do you want to play out this encounter or just keep moving?"
Then proceed to do what is described previously. Really, you just seem petulant at this point.
You don't like overland travel or having your Elven Wizards proven not to be the most prepared, the most skilled, and the bestest at everything - we get it.
It also would probably serve to isolate the leaders of said organizations a bit more, making things a bit more beholden to the iron laws of logistics and communications. Sure, we probably still have things like sending spells, but that ability to teleport mages around to form strike forces at will is gone, so much more planning and preparation is called for to limit the effectiveness of the tactic considerably.
Could be a good thing in some respects really, from a storytelling perspective, making the PCs actions count more when the BBEG can't just pop in and fix any damage they inflict to his forces and assets. Also goes a long way to explaining why they don't just come and smash them while they're little fish climbing the ladder of power.
Not sure I'd use it in my campaign, but I can definitely see the appeal to it.
So any DM who doesn't immediately bend to your way, and ensure your character ease of victory will be denounced to the point that you'll plot behind their backs to ensure that they never are able to run a game again?
No, I do it when there is clear evidence that the DM's only objective is to make a TPK and breaks the most basic rules on a whim when things don't happen the way he wants. And that DM wasn't able to find a stable group because of the way he DMs, not because something I did, his reputation as a PC killer is well known in the local RPG community.
Tell me you aren't one of those players who constantly wines at the table whenever something bad happens to their PC, or someone who starts an argument over stuff like: "My PC has X amount of Intelligence and therefore he should have been able to foresee Y."
Any DM who alters the rules without previously telling it to players and both parties are on agreement will hear me complain a lot. I hate DMs who enjoy "beating" players.
Those types of players annoy me to no end, and will likely find themselves kicked out of the game. Then again, I don't normally tend to be very soft and accommodating.
If you stick to the rules and rule fairly you aren't going to hear me complain, and I know the rules well enough to know when a DM is not being fair.
If you screw up and die, then you just screw up and die. I hate the thought of raise / resurrection.
You just give me more reasons not to play with you. Resurrection is part of the game and the choice of a player who still wants to play that character instead of rolling a new one.
The DM is going to know every spell you have prepared and know your character inside out. They are going to know every item in your possession. If a DM wanted to be lame, they could just rule the entire mountain you are trying to cross is a dead magic zone.
Nobody has even been able to remember everything my characters can do. I tend to keep a lot of items "on the dark" (that means I don't use them and the DM forgetts about it) ready to be used when I need them.
There is a difference between enduring hardship and a DM trying to screw you over, that much should be obvious - the DM can't let the Wizard maintain the ease of using magic to block the cold thus defeating the environment when the entire point is to make clear: The Spine of the World is dangerous and deadly.
If the DM can't find the way then he must accept defeat. And defeating enviroment is one of the easiest things to do.
As well it is all necessary to introduce the PC's to the barbarian who teaches them how to survive in cold wilderness - information that will help them when they actually make it across. Unless they endure the hardship they're much less likely to take the information to heart.
Not needed at all, my characters always have a couple ranks in Survival and Knowledge (Nature), they are adventurers after all.
If someone tells you that the Spine of the World is dangerous and impassable, then you go anyway, whose fault is it that you end up trapped on a mountain enduring great hardship?
If a DM constantly tries to screw my preparations because he didn't took them into account before it started and it becomes a walk in the park (to the disgust of the DM) then he is going to get a surprise with me.
Does it matter? Not really. They're dead.
It matters to me because you said they arrived to X place and when they decide to play the encounters they get killed. How can you reconcile that paradox? That's why I never say in advance what happens until it happens.
You don't like overland travel or having your Elven Wizards proven not to be the most prepared, the most skilled, and the bestest at everything - we get it.
I preffer to be in the city roleplaying with NPCs, or exploring the dungeon resolving puzzles, or a place in one of the Planes, or having an epic fight against the enemy army. Overland travel is meaningless for me because 99% of the time nothing important for the story happens on it and is just an excuse for meaningless random encounters.
One of the interesting things about 4E is the change in teleportation spells.
To an extent, this change just puts into hard rules terms some of the same dynamics that have always made translocation (and scrying) in the Realms less than reliable: local and general magical flux and uncertainty; magical requirements, consequences, and subtleties beyond those laid down by the rules; and elaborate systems of wards and counterwards.
Which as far as D&D play experience goes, since the above subtleties weren't all overt, is no bad thing, and quite against the general foreshortening trend in the latter-day published Realms that's made it seem far smaller than the actualities of mundane and magical travel, communication and culture in Faerûn actually make it.
Personally, I think it would be - especially for the Realms - where people relied on this kind of movement all the time, not only for personal use but also for trade and army movement.
Translocation magic is not commonly used in the Realms for those things.
A Ring of Endure elements is cheap.
It isn't, in the Realms proper, for sale. (Or every adventurous Sword Coast and Moonsea North NPC would have one.)
Portals becoming unstable makes for some possible fun. Trying to escape from the BBEGs fortress by using a portal? Hope it wasn't a one way or that it's still working.
I think I will (if the FRCG doesn't already) limit portals depending on factors other than wonky magic. All sorts of things are available to make portal use less frequent (lunar cycles, "key" item, one way, # of uses per tenday, etc). Someone mentioned using guardians in the Feywild/Shadowfell for portals...this alone should be bringing a grin to any DM's face...imagine having to pass through a portion of the Feywild built like fairie tales (bridges and trolls, billy goats, etc).
Maybe it's just me but I'm considering drawing up a few short "just in case" portal encounters based on something from the Narnia books (wood with a series of pools leading to different locations, just pick the right one).
I agree that using portals to strip PCs of items is rather lame (you shouldn't have given the stuff to them in the first place).
Making magical travel rare doesn't seem like a bad thing. Making it expensive leaves most of the Heroic tier out of the teleportation business unless it's a realllly good reason. There's a lot to be said for traveling the old fashioned way (as above posters have shown), espescially during the lower levels.
As for following the rules. A good DM does what he has to, to keep the game rewarding and exciting. If that means breaking rules - so be it. By that I don't mean that he should thwart the players in obvious ways, making him seem like he's just ignoring efforts made by the players. As I said, it's about keeping it interesting.
As for availability of teleports - to each his own. Personally I like that they change the rules, making 'Diablo Town Portalling' less frequent. I never saw travelling as something boring that must be removed from the game by saying "hey, you guys can teleport back to headquarters". Either, 'fast forward' (describing shortly what the PC's see on their journey) as Meldread described, or fill the travelling with meaningful events. I guess I dislike giving out abilities 'tailored' to remove a part of the game that one hasn't learned to handle properly.
No, I do it when there is clear evidence that the DM's only objective is to make a TPK and breaks the most basic rules on a whim when things don't happen the way he wants. And that DM wasn't able to find a stable group because of the way he DMs, not because something I did, his reputation as a PC killer is well known in the local RPG community.
Any DM worth their salt isn't going to try and TPK their players on purpose. That's just lame. However, likewise, any DM worth their salt is going to push the PC's to their limit in terms of ability and resources. Which battles are the best? The ones that you win easily or the ones where you overcome by the skin of your teeth? Which will you be talking about months from now, and will remember years later?
No sane DM wants to make the game unfun by simply showing off that they can kill their players characters. Obviously, any DM can do that. It isn't difficult - "Talos grows angry at you and you die." That pretty much handles it.
Any DM who alters the rules without previously telling it to players and both parties are on agreement will hear me complain a lot. I hate DMs who enjoy "beating" players.
A DM should want their players to overcome the challenges put before them. Of course, in my example, the goal wasn't to kill the party (obviously) it was more of an ambiance sort of tactic - to illustrate a point. Hence why the group encounters the barbarian at the end, to provide them with the aid they need. After which, the group would be rewarded with free skill points in the appropriate skills. ...which was the entire point. To get them to the point where they are knowledgeable enough to survive the harsh environment they're about to enter.
Which brings us back to the point of the thread: That's something you could have never done simply by teleporting or taking a portal. It's something you had to experience first hand.
You just give me more reasons not to play with you. Resurrection is part of the game and the choice of a player who still wants to play that character instead of rolling a new one.
I really don't know that many people who enjoy the ease at which people can be resurrected. It's too easy, to silly, and to boring. It kills any sense of danger when you can basically run to the nearest cleric with the ability to cast resurrection and go, "Hey, my best friend died a few days ago and all I have is this pubic hair, can you bring him back?" Then the cleric goes, "Sure, no problem!" And there he is - with a new body standing before you. No head, in an alignment opposed to the deity, or a member of an opposing faith and you're not getting a resurrection. Then you still have to deal with the quest put before you by the church... on top of paying a large sum of gold as a donation... after all escaping death is not free otherwise everyone would do it.
Nobody has even been able to remember everything my characters can do. I tend to keep a lot of items "on the dark" (that means I don't use them and the DM forgetts about it) ready to be used when I need them.
That simply would not fly with me at all. If you do not have it written down or noted somewhere that I can access, and then try and pull it out on me – then I will rule you do not have the item. In order to properly balance encounters and challenges a DM requires all that information, otherwise the encounters either end up too powerful or too under powered.
Of course, that is often a problem in epic level games – trying to keep track of all that stuff. Which is another reason why they suck so much. As a DM I would be too hard pressed to overpower encounters to compensate for things like that, which would most likely result in your death, and as you know my views on resurrection – it will mean the end of an epic campaign rather quickly.
If the DM can't find the way then he must accept defeat. And defeating enviroment is one of the easiest things to do.
It is not easy when you are under 10th level in a game that places powerful magic squarely out of your reach, as my games normally are – and as my preferences tend to lean.
Not needed at all, my characters always have a couple ranks in Survival and Knowledge (Nature), they are adventurers after all.
That is good to know, though I will point out that common sense also comes into play. If you are from Chult and you are adventuring in the Frozen North, heading over the Spine of the World – and have never seen snow or ice in you're entire life – then I don't really care how many ranks you place into it.
That really is the number one rule: “The rules never invalidate common sense.” Sure, you could have a high enough skill in Survival, but if all your survival knowledge was based in the jungle or the desert what good does it do you in an entirely different setting? Under the rules you can roll a survival check and it is good anywhere, even if it does not make sense.
Of course, if you have a high survival skill your chances of surviving a new and strange environment increase dramatically as some basic rules still apply, and you would have an easier time adapting and adjusting than someone without any skill. However, at the same time, there would be a learning curve and an adjustment period.
Basically it all boils down too common sense, and in this particular case it also boils down to your back story and previous experiences.
If a DM constantly tries to screw my preparations because he didn't took them into account before it started and it becomes a walk in the park (to the disgust of the DM) then he is going to get a surprise with me.
Of course a DM should take your preparations into account, that is why I object to hiding them or not making proper notes of them. All the screwing over happens BEFORE the encounter begins. :P It is called planning ahead.
That was more or less my point when I said you can't defeat the DM. A DM has access to all of your preparations and if he wants to strand you on a mountain, in a snow storm then he can do it with relative ease. Of course, if you somehow manage to skillfully avoid it without falling into the trap (such as listening to the NPC who told you the Spine of the World was dangerous and impassable) then all the better.
That can lead to a fun experience as a DM when things unexpected happen and can even change the entire course of the adventure or campaign.
It matters to me because you said they arrived to X place and when they decide to play the encounters they get killed. How can you reconcile that paradox? That's why I never say in advance what happens until it happens.
Again, what does it matter in the end? You are dead. The group failed. Reroll your characters who might be handling the fall out from the previous groups failure.
Although, the fact of the matter is if there was any chance what-so-ever that the PCs would die then naturally you are going to run the encounter normally. But if your PC's are level 6 or so and you have an encounter designed for a level 1 group, what is the point of having your PC's run the encounter when victory is assured?
I preffer to be in the city roleplaying with NPCs, or exploring the dungeon resolving puzzles, or a place in one of the Planes, or having an epic fight against the enemy army. Overland travel is meaningless for me because 99% of the time nothing important for the story happens on it and is just an excuse for meaningless random encounters.
Sure, some of it is meaningless, but to me it is all about flavor and keeping the world alive and active. The world is changing and evolving around you. Those goblin raiders you spotted on the way to location Y, and your neglect to inform the proper authorities indirectly led to them amassing a significant enough force to blockade the road, attack a local village, and kidnap a person of importance.
Those Ilmateri Pilgrims could have been moving south to meet up with some new heretical cult of Ilmater. It's all about keeping the world active and alive, evolving around the players.
1) If your player absolutely has to be somewhere yesterday, then a good DM will provide a means, some limited use Item or a previously unknown portal to get them there. Otherwise traveling from place to place is the best option. Otherwise you never find some really good mini adventures and interesting NPCs. A mean DM could even encourage the characters to avoid teleportation by having an Orc tribe destroy a village they would have travelled through, and would have been near when it happened, but instead chose to skip over, because walking is boring.
2) Halruan skyships would not have crashed, any more than Netherese Enclaves crashed. All magic Items, except those that had charges, were unaffected by the spellplague. At least that was my understanding. And a skyship is a magic item, just on a large scale. Also I thought that Nimbral had their own flying ships, and if so, then there are still wizards who know how to make more.
If WotC wanted to reinforce their Points of Light concept, restricting use of Teleport and similar effects/magic items is sure one way to do it.
As for my game....well, the 3E Realms at my gaming table has always been about finding adventure through fixed-location portals and using Teleport spells once the characters became high enough level to cast them.
I can’t yet say how the new rules and seeming restrictions (that Rich Baker talked about and Therise mentioned in this thread) on portal use in the 4E Realms will affect my 4E Realms game.
At least it will not be an immediate or even close-term issue. My players are still 1st level and we alternate rules systems every week.
So I’ve got awhile.
if it says 300ft per lvl, make it 300 ft every other lvl.
note: I would only use teleportation to get out, however If Im in the sword coast, and the journey takes me to shining south, Id either have to go the long way, go by air, or use teleportation magic.
but tell me, If you adventure takes you to some city state thats on the other side of a country or city state that is a war zone, you either use magic and by pass it, go around it, or go through it.
let me tell you, I have no desire to get any of my pcs conscripted into someone else's war by force
Give players a high level Wizard with the 3rd Edition Rules. Tell them to build a city from scratch. Provide a relatively safe location. Then watch what happens.
Look at how they fight a war. Look at how they build and construct things. Look at how their city evolves and operates.
Then look at all the other cities of the Realms and realize that none of them work in an equivalent manor, even in areas such as Thay – Halruaa is the only place that comes close, but even then it's still just a pale imitation.
Then realize that it completely breaks reality and consistency with the game world - after all, your wizard is not the most powerful wizard in all the Realms, nor is he the only one. There are many others. In some cases there are multiple high level wizards all living in a small location, and with the use of portals and teleportation magic distance is pretty irrelevant.
You have to ask why, in the many centuries that have passed, no one has done it before.
This is something Eberron took into account when the world was crafted and one of the reason for the low level of NPC's. The Forgotten Realm's did not take that into consideration and thus you have a high magic setting that isn't... very high magic at all outside of a few key locations (and even there in moderation).
Here is a nice reason why I dislike teleportation and other such magic:
Give players a high level Wizard with the 3rd Edition Rules. Tell them to build a city from scratch. Provide a relatively safe location. Then watch what happens.
Look at how they fight a war. Look at how they build and construct things. Look at how their city evolves and operates.
Then look at all the other cities of the Realms and realize that none of them work in an equivalent manor, even in areas such as Thay – Halruaa is the only place that comes close, but even then it's still just a pale imitation.
Then realize that it completely breaks reality and consistency with the game world - after all, your wizard is not the most powerful wizard in all the Realms, nor is he the only one. There are many others. In some cases there are multiple high level wizards all living in a small location, and with the use of portals and teleportation magic distance is pretty irrelevant.
You have to ask why, in the many centuries that have passed, no one has done it before.
This is something Eberron took into account when the world was crafted and one of the reason for the low level of NPC's. The Forgotten Realm's did not take that into consideration and thus you have a high magic setting that isn't... very high magic at all outside of a few key locations (and even there in moderation).
High magic setting that isn't. I like that.
With thousands of years of recorded history, I find it difficult to imagine that there is little technological advancement. The only good explanation is that magic has taken the place of technology but even that doesn't work when you consider that there's very little "common" magic (no worries about a well going dry when you can drop a decanter of endless water down a hole) supporting every village and farmstead.
I guess you just have to take it for what it's worth and learn to like it or modify it. I think there's room for all sorts of play (frostbite to teleporters) depending on power level and game type. The important thing is having fun and everyone's got a different definition of that (as seen in this thread, :D ).
You have to ask why, in the many centuries that have passed, no one has done it before.
Ahh...but others have.
The Forgotten Realm's did not take that into consideration and thus you have a high magic setting that isn't... very high magic at all outside of a few key locations (and even there in moderation).
I wouldn't be so sure of making that claim, were I you.
The Realms have always had gates to other locations and realities. It's a core concept of the setting.
troubles about characters teleporting into the BBEGs lair and throwing the campaign off balance and whatever else still exist.
Only if they've got a stupid BBEG or they have true teleport. Otherwise you place the portal circle hidden near the base of your lair. Now the players can only get to it once they've studied it.
2) Halruan skyships would not have crashed, any more than Netherese Enclaves crashed.
-Uh...The Netherese Enclaves crashed when Mystryl sacrificed herself. Hard. I agree, and see no reason why Halruaan Skyships would not work, but...Yeah...;)
This is something Eberron took into account when the world was crafted and one of the reason for the low level of NPC's. The Forgotten Realm's did not take that into consideration and thus you have a high magic setting that isn't... very high magic at all outside of a few key locations (and even there in moderation).
On the contrary, Ed -- from his earliest Dragon articles and in extensive later writings on magical ecology -- has considered these factors probably at more length and to more depth than anyone else. Realms sources have always taken the various D&D magic rules to be just rough approximations of the 'business end' of spells that don't cover the dynamically interweaving magical, social, ecological and cultural currents and bonds that shape how Art and Power are used. Eberron, instead, took 3E magic at face value and extrapolated from that, reaching a plausible interpretation but one of many because the magic rules by themselves can't (and aren't intended to) provide for the all the factors involved.
What would 'break reality' would be to misapply the rules in those unintended terms to the Realms.
With thousands of years of recorded history, I find it difficult to imagine that there is little technological advancement. The only good explanation is that magic has taken the place of technology but even that doesn't work when you consider that there's very little "common" magic (no worries about a well going dry when you can drop a decanter of endless water down a hole) supporting every village and farmstead.
Ultimately, the Realms and every other fantasy world is the way it is because its creators like it that way, and those genre and storytelling concerns matter far more than pre or post hoc rationalizations spun around them. (That said, I could spin much better ones than that, and Ed could spin better ones than me.)
Faerûn has a good amount of common magic; stones bearing continual light enchantments are common enough, for instance, to have a standard name (light stones -- see Dragon #287). Decanters of endless water are legendary magic and don't exist in numbers to serve many thousands of villages -- and they'd be ripe targets for plunder in any dry region where they offered a real advantage over wells.
Only if they've got a stupid BBEG or they have true teleport. Otherwise you place the portal circle hidden near the base of your lair. Now the players can only get to it once they've studied it.
-BBEGs are BBEGs. They come in all shapes, sizes, colors, etc.
-Uh...The Netherese Enclaves crashed when Mystryl sacrificed herself. Hard. I agree, and see no reason why Halruaan Skyships would not work, but...Yeah...;)
I meant during the spellplague, not your screw up. I should have been more clear. (And yes... Shade should be supported by shadow weave, but Sakkors was, as far as I can tell, still held up by the weave).
2) Halruan skyships would not have crashed, any more than Netherese Enclaves crashed. All magic Items, except those that had charges, were unaffected by the spellplague. At least that was my understanding. And a skyship is a magic item, just on a large scale. Also I thought that Nimbral had their own flying ships, and if so, then there are still wizards who know how to make more.
I meant during the spellplague, not your screw up. I should have been more clear. (And yes... Shade should be supported by shadow weave, but Sakkors was, as far as I can tell, still held up by the weave).
As LK pointed out, the collapse of the Weave during the casting of Karsus' Avatar caused all of the mythallars to stop functioning. The City of Shade (as it is now known) was not affected by the collapse of the Weave because the Weave only functions within Realmspace. Since it was on the Plane of Shadow at the time, the Weave's collapse had no effect on it. (Whether that makes much sense in the end is up to the reader, that is however, the canon explanation. Feel free to blame Troy Denning if you'd like.)
Sakkors did not survive the collapse of the Weave, either. Apparently, for reasons that still elude me, except for furthering the Sellplague plotline, the mythallar itself survived. Nonetheless, it was unable to preserve the city itself - it's powers were at least temporarily suspended.
All of the other Netherese enclaves fell from the sky as well, with almost universally bad results. Only 3 - Anauria, Asram, and Hlondeth survived, being caught, in mid-air, by Mystra upon her reincarnation.
Maybe it's just me then. I've always loved having PC's travel overland - either by horse, foot, boat, or some other method. It opens up so many opportunities to introduce new things that they can encounter along their travels. It also tends to keep the campaign focused in a general region of the world.
As well it limits some of the more high-magic silliness. After all, if it's so easy just to create portals / teleport for trade, rather than have caravans and what not - why isn't everyone who can afford it doing it?
I agree with toning down the high-magic silliness, but I don't think this was the way to do it. I mean, not EVERYONE has access to teleport spells. Could instead have expensive or rare spell components, make it higher level, have less wizards/sorcerers, less accurate etc.
Portals were already pretty damn unreliable, always fun going jumping through them. With the Rise of the Machines, I mean Spellplague, it should be like playing Russian roulette.
Again, I am refering to events during the spellplague, so Sakkors, having just been raised, did not fall again. And presumably is still functioning. In fact, anyone who can find the ritual(s) could raise a new enclave, now that Mystra is no longer preventing it.
Ah, my misunderstanding.
If you're trying to make sense out of the Sellplague, I'll be begging off. I don't think I've been able to find two different articles, previews, or designers who have been able to explain that the same way.
I never liked the 3.X teleport, and think it was too powerful and lessening the fun of the game.I also don't understand the argument that this change makes for lots of boring overland traveling. Like someone else mentioned: if you don't care for this kind of travel, just provide a brief description of the (uneventful) journey.
With this change the need for good information becomes much more important, as the heroes cannot be everywhere. It also may result in some interesting strategic choices.
I think that the Weave gave magic a 'boost', and now that it's gone, teleportation just doesn't work as well (think of the Weave as a magical GPS system, and now it's collapsed).
-Uh...The Netherese Enclaves crashed when Mystryl sacrificed herself. Hard. I agree, and see no reason why Halruaan Skyships would not work, but...Yeah...;)
Ummmm... they didn't.
They needed to function without the power of the Mythalar, so they were true magic items, not psuedo-magical. They ferried people and goods to and from land-based (non-Mythalar) locales.
And they were used by the surviving Mages to flee to Halruaa. ;)
Everyone who was not important got left behind (the groundlings), and they formed the three survivor states.
Not so fond of the Thayan Enclaves though, so they can rot for all I care.
I meant during the spellplague, not your screw up. I should have been more clear. (And yes... Shade should be supported by shadow weave, but Sakkors was, as far as I can tell, still held up by the weave).
-Oh, okay. Just wanted to point that out. Be more specific!
-Anyway, the Sakkors Enclave fell like all of the others.
Ummmm... they didn't.
-What are you babbling about? Maybe we're not on the same page, but are you contesting the fact that the Netherese enclaves fell from the sky when Mystryl sacrificed herself?
Think he's talking about Skyships actually.
-Oh, gotcha. Well, my original statement still stands.
During the spellplague, when Mystra was killed, all magic went a little wild, but did not fail. All magic Items were largely unaffected, except those that carried charges; wands, staffs and the like, so that skyships and Sakkors would not have fallen immediately, though the wizard piloting a skyship might have gone nuts and crashed. Presumably most of the skyships were destroyed when Halrua went and blowed-up. except for the small handful either in Nimbral, or elsewhere in the realms.
Mystryl sacrificed herself to save the weave before the damage became irreparable. This broke Karsus’s link to her magic and obstructed the weave, causing all magic to briefly cease functioning. Without the infusion of magic, the floating cities of Netheril fell.
All magic ceased for that brief moment, items and spells. The spellplague just caused magic to go wild, at least that is my understanding.
Those were for water though, as I recall, not the air. And mostly used in Low Netheril I think... presuming I'm thinking of the right thing.
Looks that way
Skimmers
Originally used in the Moss, skimmers were small, dangerous
boats propelled by snared air elementals. Youths were once
found skimming through the Moss, trying to avoid the dangers
and lethal creatures as a form of entertainment, but when pockets
of noxious swamp gases were discovered—and the unlucky
skimmer riders fell lifeless from the fumes—the fun stopped.
Skimmers, however, remained. Some larger versions were used
in the Narrow Sea to transport people and cargo quickly. Riverboat
skimmers were commonly used along the watercourse where gamblers
squandered their hard-earned money and walked home without
their shirts. The young of Netheril, however, still used skimmers
for their dangerous games, but the Marsh of Deception and
Escalade Rill were now responsible for their early retirements
But that is as close as I can find to a skyship.
No others arrived in the valley until nearly 1,400 years later, when a group of Netherese wizards led by the archmage Raumark fled the scourge of the phaerimms and the destruction of the empire of Netheril by skyship.
So they must have had them, just not really noticable with the enclaves overshadowing them. So still a mystery, but I think they would have stopped working for a moment, so Raumark might have had a few moored somewhere that they either didn't fall very hard, or were quickly repaired once magic began to work again. Since they weren't quasi-magic items, they should have been able to get them back up in the air with no trouble.