I've read the entries from the years 1375 D.R. to 1385 D.R. (where it ends) in the Grand History of the Realms. Apparently, one of the things about the Realms that I found awesome was its cultures, and cultures bring many religions. The Realms had many deities and it was a fun and variable setting for anyone. There was room to run whatever campaign you wanted.
And now, thanks to this 4E FR crap, they've gone on a huge deicide. Within those ten years, they first killed off Selvetarm and Vhaeraun. Then they kill off Kiaransalee, leaving only Eilistraee and Lolth. They're trying to make the "game" simpler because, apparently, there're too many retard gamers that can't handle a little variety instead of the typical "Good God, Evil God" scenario, which is now what the drow pantheon has turned into.
They then kill off Deep Duerra and Laduguer. Sorry, folks, no duergar clerics in your Realms now! In the process, they lost Gorm Gulthyn and Haela Brightaxe.
Then you kill off Helm. Then, to top it all off, you decide to slay Mystra completely in 1385, screw every spellcaster and form of magic in the Realms with this Spellplague junk, and then say only greater deities managed to live, so now you killed off EVERY deity instead of the greater gods.
Someone tell me why all this is a good thing for the Realms? I'm a conservative Realms fan. I don't mind changes...but so many RSE within the span of a year, five years, 10 years? That's ludicrous.
You don't have to restructure the Realms by killing off so many deities. You just made the most involved, detailed setting into the most mundane, simpleton setting. Thanks for not only ruining D&D, but also the Realms.
I believe I am going to consider developing an organization opposing WotC's policies with D&D. They need to be stopped before they destroy the game entirely. Well, what am I saying? There's no point for me to do that...
They already have destroyed the game and a famous setting along with it.
It already Has, bro. ;)
but how come so many Gods die??
Helm???? killed by some vengeful Maztican Gods????
Mystra dead?? not Shar????
:raincloud 
Is this written in aGHotR?
ok and i read something about Shar killing Sune during the ToT and passing as her since
Is this written in aGHotR?
I don't think so. That sounds like a fan speculation to explain why Sune would arrange a political marriage between Tymora and Tyr.
@Razz, I advise you read some of the stuff that's been floating around this board lately. It does nobody any good for you to go off half cocked and spouting inaccuracies.
For example:
They aren't killing all non-Greater deities (if they did that, Eilistraee would be dead and half of the plots they've set up in AGHotR would be meaningless). What has happened is that only Greater deities are able to hold their planes against the backlash of Mystra's death. So any Intermediate, Lesser, or Demi deity who happened to be on that Greater Power's plane (ie: Brightwater with Sune - so that's Lliira, Waukeen, Sharess, and Siamorphe (Tymora is in the house of the Triad
)) are safe (maybe - she says, hedging her bets).It already Has, bro. ;)
nice
I was wondering if anyone was going to catch that.
:P
I liked the Time of Troubles, on the whole. It had good and bad sides, but such is life. The important thing was, the overall flavor of the Forgotten Realms as a world and as a campaign setting remained unchanged. My increasing worry, from everything I've read here, and heard elsewhere, is that the 4th Edition changes will result in a campaign setting that is not the Forgotten Realms that I know and love.
I have experienced this once before, with the Dragonlance setting. I used to enjoy Dragonlance a great deal, and collected all of the supplements, and read all of the novels, until the point that Dragons of Summer Flame came out. It was at this point that the changes made became too drastic for me to accept - the world that I knew had been altered beyond the point that I wanted to continue playing in it. To this day, I have not purchased another Dragonlance product - not out of petulance or spite, but simply out of lack of interest.
I have been an avid Forgotten Realms fan since the days of the First Edition AD&D grey FR boxed set, which I still own. I still own the 2nd Editon "Forgotten Realms Adventures" Hardcover, and have played through nearly every computer game. I've purchased everything released for 3rd/3.5 edition Forgotten Realms, and would probably own a lot more 2nd edition books had I not been trying to save and pay for college at some point in there.
Thus far, many of the recent changes have not bothered me too much, including those such as the battles within the Drow Pantheon, or that with Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun, or the events of the Last Mythal trilogy. These events, while momentous, seemed perfectly in keeping with the feel of the Forgotten Realms to me. However, the Realms of 1374-75 DR are still not that different, at a rough glance, from those of 1355 DR. Major nations are still the same, major religions are mostly the same, et cetera... Upheavals have occured, but there has been no grand cataclysm or apocalypse.
However, the notion of killing off Mystra, followed by the deaths of a multitude of other gods, combined with an apocalyptic level plague that presumably shifts the Realms to a world that looks vastly different than the one that exists now is something that I personally believe is very unnecessary, and will change the tenor of the setting into something that I was not looking for in the Forgotten Realms. This ultimate notion of altering the Realms in such a massive way does not sit well with me at all.
To say that the Realms are destroyed with the coming of 4E is utterly senseless considering that it hasn't even come out yet, there's still alot of developing and desiging to do, and none of us has seen the final product. I'd say keep at least an open mind until it's release, then make your judgement.
I'd agree with you in the sense that the final product ain't done. Sure.
But - and it's a big but - the signs and portents aren't promising. The goddess of love and passion brokers an arranged marriage? Does that sound like the embodiment of love and passion? The god of justice kills his friend over adultery? Does that sound like the embodiment of justice? In other words, does it sound like the internal coherence of the Realms is being even vaguely honored?
Maybe the 4E FRCS will be fan-friggin'-tastic, and we'll all be saying, "Wow! That's awesome!" On the other hand, in March 2003 there were a lot of people saying, "This invasion is gonna be great!" And there were others who were saying, "Um, we don't think you've really thought this one through very well..."
Edit: By the by, given that they've been working on this for several years, now, I do think it's fair to say that the majority of the story design has been completed. Now they're working on the details.
My problem in particular is, that wotc betrayed their loyal customers!
I used to collect 2ed products and used them in many of my games, then came 3ed and, thouogh I allready owned many FR related stuff, I went with them because, the rules seemed more adequat for me. And in my opinion they are really very entertaining, and not so simpifying like the 2ed rules. But that's a matter of personal taste.
The point is, that I spent a whole lot of money on products which were 2 years later more or less useless because then there was 3.5 ed. Of course I didn't have to follow this, but I love the game and the 3.5 rules seemed more balanced, monsters were more clever constructed and so on ..., so I spent a whole lot of money on 3.5 ed and was happy with it.
The first FR products in 3.5 were rocking! I loved them! (Silver Marches, Serpent Kingdoms, ... almost everything)
And I'm willing to spend more money on them just to collect all of them (I own nearly all). And now they again change the rulse (as I heard: simplify them) and the whole product line, and everything starts anew. That's not customer friendly.
Of course I don't have to buy 4ed (and won't do it), many folks around here said "That's my FR setting I don't need the new products." I agree on that, and I created lot's of stuff my self, and I also spent hours reworking 2ed in 3.5ed and had fun with it. But now I have a less then satisfying product line of 3.5ed FR products. It's simply incomplete. I never get the chance to set my hand on an 3.5 (with this great design and so on) Menzoberanzzan Boxed Set, or a real!! 3.5 Undermountain Adventure Set (not that universally usable crap published recently) and so on.
In my opinion that's betrayal!
It's only about making money (which isn't a purely bad thing for a product) but if it's on the back of the faithful customers it's baseness.
I feel not taken serious and I feel sad about this obviously false decision.
. What I'm saying is that though the game has changed, your own Realms doesn't have to. Tyr doesn't have to kill Helm, Mystra doesn't have to die, the Spellplague doesn't have to happen. AND you can still use the new rules of 4e. Hey, I don't like buying all new books either. I bought a bookcase for my dining room for all the DnD, FR, Dragon Lance, Eberron, AND Warcraft Campaign books we've purchased these past 3 years and yea, I was pi**ed that they came out with 4th. So I can either hang my head and say "scrape them off, I'm done" and they'll still put out products for 4e, or I can go with the flow, see if I like it and say "wow, SOOO much better than 3/3.5e" like I did with 2e. Either way, WotC wins and gets they're money from the other million or so that play whether I do or not.
They aren't killing all non-Greater deities (if they did that, Eilistraee would be dead and half of the plots they've set up in AGHotR would be meaningless).
I remember Drizzt mentioning (in the excerpt from 'The Orc King') that Eilistraee and her followers will be *gone* (dead?) by the time the Spellplague ends...
By the way, the Tyr and Helm thing sounds so stupid. They are making "As the Realms turn" now? I smell some very bad design decisions.
Bottom line is: If they want to make a simpler setting, create a new continent or something. Messing with the old stuff will get a lot of people ****** off.
-I rode throught the desert on a horse with no name...
:: Lights a lighter ::
What I'm saying is that though the game has changed, your own Realms doesn't have to. Tyr doesn't have to kill Helm, Mystra doesn't have to die, the Spellplague doesn't have to happen. AND you can still use the new rules of 4e. Hey, I don't like buying all new books either. I bought a bookcase for my dining room for all the DnD, FR, Dragon Lance, Eberron, AND Warcraft Campaign books we've purchased these past 3 years and yea, I was pi**ed that they came out with 4th. So I can either hang my head and say "scrape them off, I'm done" and they'll still put out products for 4e, or I can go with the flow, see if I like it and say "wow, SOOO much better than 3/3.5e" like I did with 2e. Either way, WotC wins and gets they're money from the other million or so that play whether I do or not.
Thats what I've been saying - they've done us a favor. FR is DONE... it's finished. There is enough source material in the current timeframe to run 10,000 games, and fansites will continue to produce lore for the game we know and love for FREE.
They have freed us from the burden of ever having to purchase another book again. For people wanting to start a NEW game, with new rules, go for it. But the rest of us now have everything we'll ever need. We won't have to run out to the bookstore every time an FR product or splatbook comes out - we are finally FREE. :D
Are you SURE you want to do this, Wizards?
I remember Drizzt mentioning (in the excerpt from 'The Orc King') that Eilistraee and her followers will be *gone* (dead?) by the time the Spellplague ends...
I have no idea what that means either, Asgetrion.
However, "gone" doesn't necessarily mean "dead". Also, Drizzt is an unreliable narrator, so we have no idea if what he says is completely true.
(AGHotR seems to end with Eilistraee very much alive.)
The game is returning to the simpler pantheons of 1e D&D, IMHO.
Back then, there was only Corellon, Sashelas, and Lolth for the Elves.
Notice that the Dwarven Gods that died were FR-specific - more 'blending FR with core', hmmmmm?
lack the ability to create a world on my own. I mean WOTC has undone everything I love about it! Their killing off the main gods and making ones that could be great evil gods into bumbling idiots. Not to mention Mystra :raincloud ... ugh...I swear if they do anything else that changes my favorite setting I'm gonna just ... 
:headexplo DAMN YOU WOTC!!! DAMN YOU TO THE NINE HELLS!!!
(I wonder if I get roleplaying exp for that...:P)
Remember, however, that Drow of the Underdark was written with 4e in mind - and it specifically states that Drow who believe in other gods beside Lolth in FR are mistaken. At the time that came out, many of us speculated then that it was a glimpse into the future... and we didn't even know 4e was around the corner.
The game is returning to the simpler pantheons of 1e D&D, IMHO.
Back then, there was only Corellon, Sashelas, and Lolth for the Elves.
Notice that the Dwarven Gods that died were FR-specific - more 'blending FR with core', hmmmmm?
Did they ever explain why we need the settings to be more "core"-like with less world-specific things. The Realsm do not need nor do we want warforged. Eberron has no interest in certain FR things
no more arguments - one set of rules for all.
That means merging the cosmologies as well, which was hinted at in the latest 'designer column' in Insider.
"One for all, and all for one." - Thats the future of D&D.
Of course, we may also be overlooking what this means for FR. Our deities may begin to take on some traits of the Eberron deities, which all things considered probably isn't a bad thing. They tend to screw things up more often than they fix it.
We know that there is a possibility for modifications to the alignment system in 4E so we can only imagine what that means for the gods. I am contemplating chucking the entire alignment system all together, it is more of a hindrance than a help. Only certain beings could be considered good or evil - such as devils and demons. Mortals themselves would lack such a distinction and the deities that they worship (since deities to an extent conform to their worshipers) likewise would lack good or evil traits. What would be important for priests is not being good or evil, but upholding the dogma of their deity.
This is actually already possible in the Realm's via the Heretic of the Faith feat.
Oh, and this may just be complete nonsense, but I think I am understanding why Ed is focusing writing in the past nowadyas, and not the future.
I think a lot of 3E was irrevocably messed up after the first few books were printed, so any change is at least a chance for bettering the plight in that regard.
But besides, perhaps, the Spellplague, what do all of the setting changes have to do with the mechanical ones you're bringing up? How does my Fighter being capable at 15th level soothe my ire at Mystra being slain again?
"That old chestnut? Not again!!!!!!"
My problem with this is that the lifespan of a god is 30 years?
Do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds? I'm pretty sure you do, but just for those of you who don't, follow through with me here.
Villain: Foolish insects! Can you not see that I will become a GOD! How dare you oppose me?
Heroes: !@#$%%! you, BBEG! We'll wait thirty years, and you'll be dead, and we'll enjoy retirement! BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAA
In response to those who have posted that we can simply ignore the official continuum and create our own timelines instead - yes, we can. However, we still will not be getting any support from the company that has, until now, provided us with all of the detailed source material that fleshes out this magnificent world. As time goes by, and players join the campaign, we wind up making the speech of "No, that stuff never happened in our version of the Forgotten Realms..."
I went through the same thing with Krynn/Dragonlance, and tried to do the same thing. Despite originally concluding that I had no need of further source material, and could easily ignore the official continuum to run my own alternate timeline games, I eventually came to the conclusion that it just wouldn't work. The bottom line was, the spark was gone - they had killed the spirit behind the world, for me. I knew that what I used to love wasn't really there anymore, and I was just trying to keep it on life support, as a shadow of its former self.
Ultimately, if all of this goes ahead as planned, I may just return to running self-created gameworlds, rather than making use of the massive supplements, or perhaps third-party sourced materials. I would gladly spend large amounts of money purchasing a set of 4th edition sourcebooks for the Forgotten Realms, but not if I feel that they have killed the spirit of that gameworld for me - which I strongly feel is the case from all of this.
I only wish these ideas had been pitched to the community sooner, as I fear this is already locked in now, and we're stuck with it.
If the changes to the lore/history/deities/etc....don't suit your purposes, then I'd say don't use them. DnD 4e is basically changing the mechanics of the game and doens't have to consist with the changes to our Realms per se. I'm frankly excited to see what they come out with. No longer do I have to play the tank fighter and suck from levels 8th through 20th while the wizard/sorcerer, cleric, or druid gain pheonominal cosmic/divine powers to my whoping +1 attacks, some hp, and skill points. The only defining PrC is the Frenzied Berserker, and even at that I have a chance of killing my friends.
Sorry what are you talking about....
They are changing the lore of the Realms to fit with the new lore of D&D
1) I am also willing to bet that orcs are going to be a playable race out of PhB. So they had to make orcs not the evil being they were. This not a mechanic change it is a lore change.
2) While they changed the cosomlogy of FR from what it used to be in 3.5 they are even dumping that and propably will be replacing it with the new one. So they had the spell plague to do this...again this is a lore change, changing FR lore
3) The PoL is going to be the main back drop of 4th edition. This lore...but now they have destroyed the Realms to make it a PoL setting. Again lore is killing FR lore.
I could go on but I want to visit some mechanical changes you think will be so great.
Well yes fighter will get a increase of power...but how do you know wizards and such won't...as a matter of fact it seems to me that everyone is going to power boosted.
Second just simply bring back a old rule from 1st will keep wizards and other spellcaster in line. It used be if a caster got hit in the round he could not cast. I modfied it to this to this in a round a caster has been hit for damage in order to cast a spell they must make a concentration check of 10 +spell level + damage taken. The highest damage taken counts with any other souce adding 1 to the total DC. The problem wasn't that fighter was a weak tank..it was the fact they removed the need of a tank from the party. But a simple rules change is what is needed...not a edition change.
Also I hear they are getting rid of multiple attacks...so now you can move and attack. Well before you could move and attack or not move and attack as a full action. Gee it looks like to me they are limiting play not increasing it.
But all of that aside the mechanics could be perfect...I still won't play in The New Realms. Because they have killed the old one due to lore changes. And well buying the new FR books will not be useful to me as it will radically different from the Realms I will continue to run and play in.
What I'm saying is that though the game has changed, your own Realms doesn't have to. Tyr doesn't have to kill Helm, Mystra doesn't have to die, the Spellplague doesn't have to happen. AND you can still use the new rules of 4e.
I think you're missing the point here. It ain't about the money. I don't have a problem with a company trying to make some cash off of me. If I have the money to spend, and I choose to spend it there, it's called trading. The money's not the issue.
The problem is that, by and large, I like getting new Realms material. I like the setting. I tend to like a lot of what gets published. Not all of it, per se, but a lot of it. Even if I don't use it in my campaign, it's enjoyable reading.
My concern is that I don't see the Realms surviving much longer, because these kinds of rampant, ridiculous changes tend to kill the commercial appeal of a setting. It happened to Greyhawk and Dragonlance. I don't want to see it happen to the Realms.
Sorry what are you talking about....
They are changing the lore of the Realms to fit with the new lore of D&D
-I am under the impression that there was no Core/default world for 4e but something that can be implimented into any setting. I know about Living Forgotten Realms and all that, but for the most part I thought it was setting neutral with FR being the first to have setting lore/game products coming out?
1) I am also willing to bet that orcs are going to be a playable race out of PhB. So they had to make orcs not the evil being they were. This not a mechanic change it is a lore change.
-Orc's have always been a playable race, maybe not out of the PhB but still playable. Alignment I hear is going to work a bit differently, but monsters as a whole will still be considered evil/good/chaotic/lawful based upon past editions.
2) While they changed the cosomlogy of FR from what it used to be in 3.5 they are even dumping that and propably will be replacing it with the new one. So they had the spell plague to do this...again this is a lore change, changing FR lore
-From what i've read this is incorrect. They are killing off SOME gods, yes, and some will change a bit. A lot of speculation is going around that all the lesser deities are being killed off as well. This I also believe is incorrect.
Well yes fighter will get a increase of power...but how do you know wizards and such won't...as a matter of fact it seems to me that everyone is going to power boosted.
-I don't know, i'm really just speculating here from I've seen and read on various threads and sites. And really, besides the core classes: Ftr, Wiz, Rog, Clr and Druid, ALL of the other classes are underpowered to many degrees. Doesn't mean they aren't fun to play, but I'd like to have some equality across the board. All the classes will have at will, per encounter, and per day abilities which, right there are better than it is right now. What these abilities are, I don't know yet, but I've been told the ToB was a step in that direction.
3) The PoL is going to be the main back drop of 4th edition. This lore...but now they have destroyed the Realms to make it a PoL setting. Again lore is killing FR lore.
Given the perilous nature of the world around the small islands of civilization, many adventures revolve around venturing into the wild lands. For example:
*Roads are often closed by bandits, marauders such as goblins or gnolls, or hungry monsters such as griffons or dragons. The simple mission of driving off whomever or whatever is preying on unfortunate travelers is how many young heroes begin their careers.
*Since towns and villages do not stay in close contact, it’s easy for all sorts of evils to befall a settlement without anyone noticing for a long time. A village might be terrorized by a pack of werewolves or enslaved by an evil wizard, and no one else would know until adventurers stumbled into the situation.
*Many small settlements and strongholds are founded, flourish for a time, and then fall into darkness. The wild lands are filled with forgotten towers, abandoned towns, haunted castles, and ruined temples. Even people living only a few miles away from such places might know them only by rumor and legend.
-It sounds like a run-of-the-mill adventure for any character wishing to go from Waterdeep to Athkatla. I don't see a problem here, though I haven't bought GHotR yet so I'm not sure what it looks like in 1385
My concern is that I don't see the Realms surviving much longer......It happened to Greyhawk and Dragonlance. I don't want to see it happen to the Realms.
-Let's be honest, Dragon Lance dwindled ever since the Lost Soul's trilogy where they killed off most of the interesting characters. It's to the point where they're bringing back those characters in the Lost Chronicles series because of lack of interest. The Minotaur series and the Dark Disciple series were a bit of a yawn and to keep playing in world that everything is interconnected with everything else tends to become stale, espically when all the evil is defended by 9 people in a HUGE contintent like in the War of the Lance. It's a great read, but bad for continued game play IMHO. Greyhawk fared better because it was the core world for DnD and has done so up intil now. But honestly, I can't remember ANY maps, cities, or Greyhawk specific adventures produced that were set in that Realms and not just made into core products. That's not happening to FR, it's not the default setting, just the 1st in line.
My friend Mephron runs an Eberron game. It's a damned good Eberron game.
He just finished it. Now we have to wait until 2009 to play the next story because there's No !@#$!ing support at all?
The problem is that a drop of wine in a bucket of !@#$ is still @#$$@.
But this really is a case where they took a perfectly good bottle of wine and dumed !@#$ into it.
Yeah. And WE'RE the lucky ones.
My friend Mephron runs an Eberron game. It's a damned good Eberron game.
He just finished it. Now we have to wait until 2009 to play the next story because there's No !@#$!ing support at all?
The problem is that a drop of wine in a bucket of !@#$ is still @#$$@.
But this really is a case where they took a perfectly good bottle of wine and dumed !@#$ into it.
Why wait? Why do you need additional support? It's Eberron, for ****'s sake. The setting is designed to work without official support.
Even if Eberron players WANT to switch to 4e, there is no reason what-so-ever for them to purchase the rules until 2009.
The more I think about it, the more I realize they only ruined it for themselves. We will go on and continue to enjoy the Realms we know, and they will be stuck with a flop no-one is buying.
I'm glad my paycheck isn't riding on this longshot. ;)
-I am under the impression that there was no Core/default world for 4e but something that can be implimented into any setting. I know about Living Forgotten Realms and all that, but for the most part I thought it was setting neutral with FR being the first to have setting lore/game products coming out?
From what I have read the core game will be based on the idea of PoL. They promised that both settings will not be changed overly much. Well they made FR a new world, alot of incorporating the new lore and not mechanical changes.
--Orc's have always been a playable race, maybe not out of the PhB but still playable. Alignment I hear is going to work a bit differently, but monsters as a whole will still be considered evil/good/chaotic/lawful based upon past editions.
Again with the release of the Orc King...the orcs in the savage north will be the good guys...after 20+ years of FR lore telling us how evil they are. They are also going to put in the history of the Realms a kingdom of dwaves and orcs....
---From what i've read this is incorrect. They are killing off SOME gods, yes, and some will change a bit. A lot of speculation is going around that all the lesser deities are being killed off as well. This I also believe is incorrect.
Well I have read the GHotFR. They have said directly that the planes have changed....and that lesser gods are going to be killed off during the spell plague. The planes changing is going to be is going to mirror the changes in core.
----I don't know, i'm really just speculating here from I've seen and read on various threads and sites. And really, besides the core classes: Ftr, Wiz, Rog, Clr and Druid, ALL of the other classes are underpowered to many degrees. Doesn't mean they aren't fun to play, but I'd like to have some equality across the board. All the classes will have at will, per encounter, and per day abilities which, right there are better than it is right now. What these abilities are, I don't know yet, but I've been told the ToB was a step in that direction. .
So you are basing on pure speculation in a positive way. I am the opposite. the at will abilities, 1/ encounter abilities and the 1/ day abilities system which in my opinion may not be better. I really don't think it be. But you are right it is pire speculation.
Given the perilous nature of the world around the small islands of civilization, many adventures revolve around venturing into the wild lands. For example:
*Roads are often closed by bandits, marauders such as goblins or gnolls, or hungry monsters such as griffons or dragons. The simple mission of driving off whomever or whatever is preying on unfortunate travelers is how many young heroes begin their careers.
*Since towns and villages do not stay in close contact, it’s easy for all sorts of evils to befall a settlement without anyone noticing for a long time. A village might be terrorized by a pack of werewolves or enslaved by an evil wizard, and no one else would know until adventurers stumbled into the situation.
*Many small settlements and strongholds are founded, flourish for a time, and then fall into darkness. The wild lands are filled with forgotten towers, abandoned towns, haunted castles, and ruined temples. Even people living only a few miles away from such places might know them only by rumor and legend.
-It sounds like a run-of-the-mill adventure for any character wishing to go from Waterdeep to Athkatla. I don't see a problem here, though I haven't bought GHotR yet so I'm not sure what it looks like in 1385.
Sure the FR always had PoL areas...it sounds exactly like traveling from Waterdeep to any point in the North. But then again FR always had variety...and trade. Now with the Spellplague that is gone and all that is left is PoL. And this after they said that there wasn't going to be any major changes to the Realms to fit this concept into the Realms.
Also I might add that ignoring a major change like a death of a god is not simple to do in a new rule sets. Here is a example.
In my FR Leira never dies to Cyric and Mask(sorry I thought this was just retarded)...but I still had rules on how to make a Leiran cleric. Now in the new edition I have to make those rules because no 4th edition FR books will have them. So now I am faced with the prospect of creating mechanics that fit the with flavor of being a cleric of Leira(or Helm, or Mystra because sorry but they are being killed in my Realms either) in a completely new system...and have to make it balanced and work properly.
That is why using 4th edition rules and ignoring the lore is a very bad idea in my opinion.
So ask yourself this....What is more important to a D&D game...having the lore that you love with new rule that don't help at all....or using the lore that you love with a rules system that actualy supports it...and where it doesn't you are familar enough with it that you can change it without throwing the game into chaos?
To me I rather have a system that was meant to be played with the lore of the setting.
Dan, my first post had nothing to do with mechanics, just a hope that people give 4e a chance like Ed said. I'm mostly talking about the changes they've made to the game as a whole, not lore. If I don't happen to like a piece of lore, cosmology change, or event, I probably won't put it in.
I've already been disappointed for years. Now, more disappointment.
I don't know about you, but when I get burned by a fire, I think only an idiot keeps sticking his hand in further.
I'm not sure how much Ed even knew when he very originally made that statement. But, obviously he can't speak openly snidely about it all, even if he hates it. He's a polite businessman and professional.
I want to thank (sarcastically) the FR designers in completely doing away with everything we've come to know and love about the Realms. WotC is already alienating us veterans from past editions with this new junk coming with 4E, and now they're trying to get rid of us veteran Realms fans.
I've read the entries from the years 1375 D.R. to 1385 D.R. (where it ends) in the Grand History of the Realms. Apparently, one of the things about the Realms that I found awesome was its cultures, and cultures bring many religions. The Realms had many deities and it was a fun and variable setting for anyone. There was room to run whatever campaign you wanted.
And now, thanks to this 4E FR crap, they've gone on a huge deicide. Within those ten years, they first killed off Selvetarm and Vhaeraun. Then they kill off Kiaransalee, leaving only Eilistraee and Lolth. They're trying to make the "game" simpler because, apparently, there're too many retard gamers that can't handle a little variety instead of the typical "Good God, Evil God" scenario, which is now what the drow pantheon has turned into.
They then kill off Deep Duerra and Laduguer. Sorry, folks, no duergar clerics in your Realms now! In the process, they lost Gorm Gulthyn and Haela Brightaxe.
Then you kill off Helm. Then, to top it all off, you decide to slay Mystra completely in 1385, screw every spellcaster and form of magic in the Realms with this Spellplague junk, and then say only greater deities managed to live, so now you killed off EVERY deity instead of the greater gods.
Someone tell me why all this is a good thing for the Realms? I'm a conservative Realms fan. I don't mind changes...but so many RSE within the span of a year, five years, 10 years? That's ludicrous.
You don't have to restructure the Realms by killing off so many deities. You just made the most involved, detailed setting into the most mundane, simpleton setting. Thanks for not only ruining D&D, but also the Realms.
I believe I am going to consider developing an organization opposing WotC's policies with D&D. They need to be stopped before they destroy the game entirely. Well, what am I saying? There's no point for me to do that...
They already have destroyed the game and a famous setting along with it.
Considering Mystra and the Weave is an "interface" to the raw "Ether" that mages of other Realms lakcking godlings of magic can tap into directly, all that has to happen is that the Mages and Sorcerers learrn to cast Magic from drawing directly from the source magic instead of being spoonfed it by Mystra and the Weave the way the Ancients did. (of course irrisponsibility with the raw stuff can lead to Magical armegedon)
And as the Mystics know, the "divine Spark" within is the actual source of 1st and 2nd Clerical spells from being cotented in your "Faith", but with futher understanding of self you can access r3rd thjrough 7th level clerical spells from your own "divine Spark" instead of depending on the petty godlings and their minions to grant them to you via kissing their behind via prayer.
Also the lack of and the Stability of magic means technology such as the gun and the cannon and the Missle and the gernade are going to replace magic missle wands and fireball spells in battle.....might even have someone that finds the ether and uses technology to power reality distorting effects via "spell circuts" (Tachno-Magic Fireball guns)
So some godlings are dead? Pfft, just proves they aren't as "all powerful" as there belivers thought they were.
SpellPlauge? Not "Horus" by any Chance? Magical Diseases have existed for as long as magic was dabbled with to create such effects both clerical spells and Mage spells alike. And like all diseases there is a cure spell or proceedure (more likely proceedure as the disease sucks out the ability to use magic or feel the ether/weave). And since the source of Magic can't be altered the disease is either in the weave, which is unlikely as as long as you avoid an infected area/person you are alright,or the mage/sorcerer themselves which means the disease is either physical, mental, or spirtual. (and since magic is the ability of the will and mind to alter reality via using a external power source am guessing that the disease effects the innate ability to detect and harness magic in the "being" but since mind,soul and body are inter-related their might be an herbal remedy to this "Spell Plague"
Perhaps a tixture of crushed blackrock(volcanic rock effected by electricity and magical fields), with minced ice worm heart, powdered unicorn horn, pheonix tears, with some Gato bola and giant bee Honey (In theory this will invigorate the primal lobe and subconcious connection to the "universal mind" from which the powers of Magic and Psionics come from....lol
Or is it many ruins to rulr them all? Is it the Aboleth Empire?
:surrenderIn 3e, that all goes out the window because in FR you have to have a Divine sponsor to cast Divine magic (but not so in core).
I've often described the Weave as an 'interface', so perhaps the 25 spell level system is how Raw Magic is supposed to work. One problem - thats a great explanantion for FR, but I'd like to see how they are going to retro-fit that into worlds that had NO weave, like GH or Eberron.
He's dead-wrong about the 'Spellplague', because as we now know it is horribly mis-named and isn't a disease or affliction at all. It's the death of Mystra and the collapse of the Weave. The insanity part I might attribute to Shar's Shadoweave. If it were to suddenly become the 'default' weave, even temporarily, then I could see why all the mages went insane (remember Elminster in Hell? Halaster was insane BECAUSE of his association with Shar).
I've also theorized (and been shot down) that the Weave interferes with technology (a low-lev EM pulse). Since there are MANY examples in the RW where electronic devices go on the 'fritz' when in close proximity to the supernatural or other 'oddities beyond our understanding'. I could see FR moving into a Renaissance-era if the Weave is no longer in place. Other magical worlds have tech (GH even had a spaceship!), so obviously Raw Magic does not have an effect on tech, or a least not as strong a one.
However, the Renaissance would have to be over a century into the future, because we already know we have a hundred years of 'hell on Earth' going down.
Hey did you guys see the new article out on GHotR. Down towards the bottom it say that the DEEPWATER WAR DESTROYS all of the ports along the SWORD COAST! I wonder if that means, that WATERDEEP is now a ruin? One ruin to rule them all now that Myth Drannor is alive & kicking? Would that be why Halaster got the SHAFT?
Probably why they neeeded both Khelben AND Halaster out of the way, and the other Chosen, Laeral Silverhand, has moved inland.
I've been saying all along that the reason why Undermountain appeared incomplete was because they were planning on merging parts of it with Waterdeep in a future adventure.
I believe there's one coming out called Blackstaff Tower, if I'm not mistaken.
I love being right most of the time. :P
Hey did you guys see the new article out on GHotR. Down towards the bottom it say that the DEEPWATER WAR DESTROYS all of the ports along the SWORD COAST! I wonder if that means, that WATERDEEP is now a ruin? One ruin to rule them all now that Myth Drannor is alive & kicking? Would that be why Halaster got the SHAFT?
I won't be putting that $#%@ into my Realms, Wizards, but thanks anyway.
If this 'thing' ever does revert back to EG, would he even want this stinky mess?
Actually, I'd like to retract what I said before. I read that article in question, and I think Brian (in the interview) was talking about the "Threat from the Sea" events, not some new, destructive event that we've never heard of before.
I dont know? The article did mention MATIZACA(sp), then the DEEPWATER WAR, saying that the war was going to destroy the Sword Coast Ports. I REALLY HOPE NOT! On a side note, Richard Bakers blog mentioned that Ed was going to write 50000 words in the 4th edition FRCS. Todays blog also had some interesting comments about whats going on in the REALMS.;) Wasnt the DEEPWATER WAR some what detailed in the City of Splendors WaterDeep? Maybe a first strike against the Sword Coast? The SPELLPLAGUE would be a good time to strike against magic users.
:evillaugh 
Aboleth's are psionic - Mystra's fall would be the PERFECT time for them to attack.
I always disliked Waterdeep... it'll be nice to see it fall.
I think I'm actually starting to like parts of 4e FR. :P
The sparks of the tempest rage a hundred years on
The voice of the dreamer screams, the cause of the pawn
The King and the Queen are gone, each piece is the same
The difference between us is a part of the game
Darkness is spreading like a spot on the sun
The dead are the living in the age of the gun
While everyone clamors for the justice they seek
The world is corrupted and the strong take the weak
They mold you and shape you, they watch what you do
The sparks of the tempest are burnin' you through
Spreading like wildfire, fallin' like rain
Though they may promise, they only bring pain
The future is managed, and your freedom's a joke
You don't know the difference as you put on the yoke
The less that you know the more you fall into place
A cog in the wheel, there is no soul in your face
Run for the cover, Millennium's here
Bearing the standard of confusion and fear
Spreading like wildfire, fallin' like rain
Though they may promise, they only bring pain
Blood in the sand, a cry in the street
Now the cycle is nearly complete
Ten thousand years, and nothing was learned
No turning back, now the wheel has turned
Big Brother is watching and he likes what he sees
A world for the taking, when he's ready to squeeze
The King and the Queen are gone, each piece is the same
The difference between us is a part of the game
Soothsayer saying now tell me no lies
What is this madness that is filling the skies
Spreading like wildfire, fallin' like rain
Though they may promise, they only bring pain
Almost perfect, eh? ;)
Thank you for at least trying to removes Forgotten Realms from a possible future Greyhawkian fate, with grognards waging war on newcommers and new stuff.
Actually, I'd like to retract what I said before. I read that article in question, and I think Brian (in the interview) was talking about the "Threat from the Sea" events, not some new, destructive event that we've never heard of before.
Nothing to be concerned about. Rinonalyrna is correct. I was referring to the events described in the Threat from the Sea series. The Deepwater War is the named attributed to the event by Waterdhavians.
Thank Wotc for daring at least, for good or ill.
Thank you for at least trying to removes Forgotten Realms from a possible future Greyhawkian fate, with grognards waging war on newcommers and new stuff.
100th post,yeah me.:D May the next 100 be just as goofy as my first 100.:P Isnt that happening already.;)
Nothing to be concerned about. Rinonalyrna is correct. I was referring to the events described in the Threat from the Sea series. The Deepwater War is the named attributed to the event by Waterdhavians.
Ah... Okay... the name change threw me.
I was actually hoping for something new that time... ;)
Nothing to be concerned about. Rinonalyrna is correct. I was referring to the events described in the Threat from the Sea series. The Deepwater War is the named attributed to the event by Waterdhavians.
Well poopoo on a stick thanks for ruining my day.;) I guess all those devious ideas:lightbulb will just have to wait now huh. Thanks for the clarification Iakhovas. All those ideas smashed. Hey its my REALMS & i will do as I want to, do as I want to. :D
I really liked DR 1378 for what my EVIL mind is brewing up for WATERDEEP! :evillaugh 
In my realms its the next Elgrin Fau, oh yeah. The wonderful thing is they leave it open ended. Does it happen, yes, no, my players will find out.:DThese are my points exactly. If we now know the future, they've made EVERYTHING our characters have ever done IRRELEVENT. The future is DOOMed, why bother? Why save that village over there, when it won't even exist in a few years? They have basically taken every bit of fun out of it for our players with this 'dark future' scenario hanging over our heads.
Thats what I've been saying - they've done us a favor. FR is DONE... it's finished. There is enough source material in the current timeframe to run 10,000 games, and fansites will continue to produce lore for the game we know and love for FREE.
They have freed us from the burden of ever having to purchase another book again. For people wanting to start a NEW game, with new rules, go for it. But the rest of us now have everything we'll ever need. We won't have to run out to the bookstore every time an FR product or splatbook comes out - we are finally FREE. :D
Yup. I'm running a game in 1373DR with 3.5e. I'm not buying 4e. The Spellplague and time jump are there to change the Realms for 4e. I'm just going to keep running my 3.5e game and use my money to by 2e box sets. I don't have to buy a new D&D book ever again.:D I will miss having a "living" world.
War, I can't tell if you're being seriously ignorant about the setting or sarcastic...
Sarcastic. :P
But I always insist that all my PC spell casters that dabble around in the Realms always call elsewhere home with the ability to access the "Ether" directly without the native mages' interface via "the Weave". (No real advantage other then they can still memorize spells and cast spells when Mystra or the weave ocasionally falters)
I've often described the Weave as an 'interface', so perhaps the 25 spell level system is how Raw Magic is supposed to work. One problem - thats a great explanantion for FR, but I'd like to see how they are going to retro-fit that into worlds that had NO weave, like GH or Eberron.
It is how the Weave and Mystra is explain in a lot of resources as well. Basically the Weave and Mystra is there cause there was a magical disaster before that Netrhilian guy tried to take Mystra place which would have causes another magical disaster. So from raw Magic the FR natives went to the Weave Magic, then with that Atempt to replace Mystra with a 13th? level Spell the reworking of the Weave disallowed 10th Level spells and above to Native Torilians...though like anything else people find a wway thus Epic Spell casting
He's dead-wrong about the 'Spellplague', because as we now know it is horribly mis-named and isn't a disease or affliction at all. It's the death of Mystra and the collapse of the Weave. The insanity part I might attribute to Shar's Shadoweave. If it were to suddenly become the 'default' weave, even temporarily, then I could see why all the mages went insane (remember Elminster in Hell? Halaster was insane BECAUSE of his association with Shar).
Oh, that was just sarcasim...lol The Weave is overratted, and much like Psionics have come back the Natives WILL find another way even if they need to figure out how to tap the "Ether" directly or may stumble on the conversion of lifeforce to magical energies (Preserverism/Defilerism)
It is natural to always find a way
I've also theorized (and been shot down) that the Weave interferes with technology (a low-lev EM pulse). Since there are MANY examples in the RW where electronic devices go on the 'fritz' when in close proximity to the supernatural or other 'oddities beyond our understanding'. I could see FR moving into a Renaissance-era if the Weave is no longer in place. Other magical worlds have tech (GH even had a spaceship!), so obviously Raw Magic does not have an effect on tech, or a least not as strong a one.
Actually there is a god for everything (including farts I'm sure) so Inventions and tech don't work unless Ogmha and the "Wonder Bringer" decide they will allow a particular technology work in the Realms
It's why gunpowder doesn't work in the Forgotten Realms but Smoke Powder does
Of Course if Gond and Ogmha were to die or disapear there would be no mediation for what tech can be used in the Forgotten Realms and we could end up with Bazooka Carrying Lizardmen and Machine gun totting Orcs
In GH, they've always just done the "it was always that way' explanantion, which GH players prefer, more or less. Thats because the one WSE they had turned the setting upside down and changed the flavor, so since then they would rather have NO explanation then a setting shift.
I'm familiar with Eberron, but I'm no expert on it's inner workings. What little I know makes me wonder how they are going to pull off a rules change when the basic laws of their magic are uniquelly tied to the setting (Dragonmarks). I have a feeling that they are in for a bumpy ride as well.
Actually there is a god for everything (including farts I'm sure)...
That would probably be Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud. ;)
...so Inventions and tech don't work unless Ogmha and the "Wonder Bringer" decide they will allow a particular technology work in the Realms
It's why gunpowder doesn't work in the Forgotten Realms but Smoke Powder does
Of Course if Gond and Ogmha were to die or disapear there would be no mediation for what tech can be used in the Forgotten Realms and we could end up with Bazooka Carrying Lizardmen and Machine gun totting Orcs
Actually, its already been stated in canon that the 'no tech' effect is a naturally occurring property of Realmspace. It could be tied to Mystra's Weave, which permeates ALL of Realmspace, but any being other then Ao does not have say over the sphere's properties or traits.
However, that doesn't mean that Gond doesn't try to find ways to work around the rules. :D
Hence you have Smokepowder, and very sophisticated animatrons, but nothing that violates the 'no electrical tech' rule. I wouldn't be suprised if the Lantanese have an Improbability Engine (purely mechanical computer) tucked away somewhere.
A civilization whose technology revolves completely around light (ala Atlantis folklore) would probably be able to rise toa very sophisticated level, without the need for electrical circuitry. There path would merely be longer and harder...
Back on topic: Charleton Heston from Planet of the Apes -
"You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!" ;)
The future sounds pretty grim. Glad someone else is picking up as the DM next year. He can deal with this mess....
I'm giving the 4ed FRCS only one chance to convince me from playing the new realms, if it doesn't feels realmsian then I'll throw it to the garbage compactor.
The problem, and it is a bit insulting, is the very dry and high demand for 'feel' - an obsession for 'it is how it should be'.
Grognardise expectations - 'no change to the base, EVER'.
And it is how Greyhawk slowly died. In reality, I bet even TSR (or at least the guys working on it) WANTED To continue the line; but they ended up disgusted, disanchented by the by the factionalism and radicalisation of the fandom.
And it is why I raises my hat; it WILL be FR, and WOTC at least tried to make thinsg change and progress - for good or ill. No static retconing and all. No 'it is as it was before, bla bla'.
It is how Greyhawk slowly died. In reality, I bet even TSR (or at least the guys working on it) WANTED To continue the line; but they ended up disgusted, disanchented by the by the factionalism and radicalisation of the fandom.
Before you waste our time any more, why don't you go find out why Greyhawk really died.
Because you lost your bet. You can donate it in our name to a worthy charity.
Before you waste our time any more, why don't you go find out why Greyhawk really died.
Because you lost your bet. You can donate it in our name to a worthy charity.
Insulted that I went against the crowd who are all 'evil corporation who killed MY GREAT SETTING?!?'
Maybe the fans DO have a part in the mess?
Look at the flamewars between fans of various interpretations of it, and also against fans of other settings. The Greyhawk fans have an hardcore seed than is not really conductive to new books.
-GH died, essentially, because it ceased to be GH. It lost it's fanbase- those 'Grognardise'- and faded away.
-'Geek, you should really do more research before posting, in some cases.
-GH died, essentially, because it ceased to be GH. It lost it's fanbase- those 'Grognardise'- and faded away.
GH died because the minority of hardcore fans claimed new stuff was 'not GH'. Big difference.
And it may happenes to FR.
But then, who I am, going against the accepted view? I must be foolish.
GH died because the minority of hardcore fans claimed new stuff was 'not GH'. Big difference.
-If they were such a minority, why did their departure condemn the setting?
And it may happenes to FR.
-Which is why we all dislike the changes.
But then, who I am, going against the accepted view? I must be foolish.
-Must be...
-If they were such a minority, why did their departure condemn the setting?
Because they bad-mouthed the setting, creating negative advertising?
Ed's Realms were not so Civilized - his original vision was much closer to this new fangled 'points of light', that for some reason people in charge worked against toward the end of 2e and all through 3e.
Eventually, you 'fill in the blanks' a little too much, and there's nothing left for the DMs to call their own. They even shrunk-up and twisted the maps to get rid of the empty spaces. Now they want to sell those empty spaces back to us.
Change is not a bad thing unto itself, but change for stupid reasons IS, especially when those reasons can be traced directly back to the folks who have been steering the setting for the last 10 years.
That is the problem with this new FR - it's not for US, it's for THEM. They broke it, and now they need to fix it.
Ed's Realms were not so Civilized - his original vision was much closer to this new fangled 'points of light', that for some reason people in charge worked against toward the end of 2e and all through 3e.
So now you're angry at WotC because they're going back to Ed's original vision?
Talk about hard to please...
GH was a light-hearted fun setting, and then they made it all 'dark' - same as they are doing to FR. The Realms were already perfect for the 'points of light' approach, except for the few regions that over-zealous designers and authors have filled it in with 'civilization'.
Ed's Realms were not so Civilized - his original vision was much closer to this new fangled 'points of light', that for some reason people in charge worked against toward the end of 2e and all through 3e.
Eventually, you 'fill in the blanks' a little too much, and there's nothing left for the DMs to call their own. They even shrunk-up and twisted the maps to get rid of the empty spaces. Now they want to sell those empty spaces back to us.
Change is not a bad thing unto itself, but change for stupid reasons IS, especially when those reasons can be traced directly back to the folks who have been steering the setting for the last 10 years.
That is the problem with this new FR - it's not for US, it's for THEM. They broke it, and now they need to fix it.
I essentially agree with you. Although I would say, that change for stupid reasons may not be bad. Depends on how well the change works out and how interesting it is
So now you're angry at WotC because they're going back to Ed's original vision?
Talk about hard to please...
Read the end of his post.
Because they bad-mouthed the setting, creating negative advertising?
-Then they weren't in such a minority position, were they?
I essentially agree with you. Although I would say, that change for stupid reasons may not be bad. Depends on how well the change works out and how interesting it is
Now that I know Ed Greenwood is acting in more then just an 'advisory' capacity, I have hope once again.
His name on a product goes a long way in making us feel better.
Now if they could just enlist Schend....
The more I hear about what changes in 4th edition the more I wonder if WOTC has gone to the new edition well one time to many.
Ed's Realms were not so Civilized - his original vision was much closer to this new fangled 'points of light', that for some reason people in charge worked against toward the end of 2e and all through 3e.
Um Ed Greenwood's Realms was nothing like a point of lights campaign...um maybe certain areas, but the whole world?
I mean remeber there is almost no trade in a PoL setting...and well Ed created Amn, Sembia, the Zhentarim trying to take control of the world me mercantile means.
Also he created areas that are patrol...those don't exist eith because will you need mor manpower then of these PoL can muster...like Cormyr, Thay, areas of the moonsea by the Zhentlish, Amn(again who also outlaw adventures which are in the PoL setting the only ones standing between death and life)... these are but a few things that Ed had in his Realms that are not possible in a PoL campaign.
I read that ED did not ask for the changes they are making that it was not any of his plans.
If Ed didn't plan it, why is it happening? Why have you forsaken us Ed? For 15 years the realms have been my gaming home. With rather large modification in parts, but still home & heart of the Realms. I've fully never had to pull out 10 years worth of timeline to maintain continuity in my game world...until now.
I think what irks me the most, is that in killing off Midnight, they did it with the most worthless deity of them all. I mean come on, Cyric? That's like saying the Rain Man beat up the Hulk. He drove himself nuts with his own book for the love of god.
And someone MIGHT want to explain how Savras didn't see this coming and warn Mystra. God of Diviners...not seeing....something....coming???? If anyone has ever failed at life more it would be Savras.
Helm dying to Tyr? I can think of 10 deities that had it in for Helm more, one of them being Midnight.
Sune arranging a marriage? Uh, yeah, & Cupid is a Justice of the Peace like Andy Griffith. And arranging a marriage between the Patron of Justice and a Patron of Thieves...brilliant! Passion & love yo, you dig?
The guys who wrote this garbage need Connor and Murphy to show up, drop some e spiritus sancte, and cap them in front of their peers.
And if Greenwood did concoct this, he better have one helluva reason besides a paycheck.
Anyone else looking at your Arcane Age material in light of all this and thinking it might not be that bad afterall?
to finish yet". Damage control ED! Before they can make it even more of a
mess!
If Ed didn't plan it, why is it happening?
Because Ed does not own the setting--he ultimately has no control over what WotC decides to do with it.
By the way (this is a general comment), I haven't read anything that indicates that these new changes are meant to "bring Ed's version of the Realms back" or any such nonsense.
I read something today that made me a little less disgruntled with what's going on... They do seem to be listening to us...
From Rich Baker's Blog:
Speaking of sunshine, here's a nice little ray of it I can share with everybody today: We've managed to book Ed Greenwood for 50,000 words of the new 4th Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. You might wonder why that would be something that even be remotely in question, but the fact is that Ed's a very busy guy with a number of other writing commitments (most notably for our own Forgotten Realms novels!) so it took some scheduling gymnastics on our part to make sure we could have him for a couple of months of writing time.
In light of that, our story team had a good meeting specifically about FR yesterday afternoon. We reviewed our original revision plans (they're almost two years old) and talked about where we are with the porject, and we kicked around the question of how much "course correction" we want to make now that you fans have responded to some of the big reveals at the end of the Grand History. We're not pitching the plan and starting over (if that's what you were hoping for, sorry, ain't gonna happen), but we are definitely tweaking the plan to speak to some of the how-can-this-still-be-the-Realms! concerns that are out there. I like where we got to, and I think most of you will too.
If they were such a minority, why did their departure condemn the setting?
The setting was condemned before the changes. The hardcore GH fans were not numerous enough to sustain it by themselves. It needed to be either reinvigorated or shelved. Since the GH fans pooped on the reboot, being shelved was the only option.
Actually, its already been stated in canon that the 'no tech' effect is a naturally occurring property of Realmspace. It could be tied to Mystra's Weave, which permeates ALL of Realmspace, but any being other then Ao does not have say over the sphere's properties or traits.
However, that doesn't mean that Gond doesn't try to find ways to work around the rules. :D
Hence you have Smokepowder, and very sophisticated animatrons, but nothing that violates the 'no electrical tech' rule. I wouldn't be suprised if the Lantanese have an Improbability Engine (purely mechanical computer) tucked away somewhere.
A civilization whose technology revolves completely around light (ala Atlantis folklore) would probably be able to rise toa very sophisticated level, without the need for electrical circuitry. There path would merely be longer and harder...
Why would you need "Tech" in a world steeped in magical energy?
Actually making devices that run on the power the weave provides for raw power or to create effects is a plausable workaround known as techno-magic.
Raw magical energy is basically simular to eletricity and could be used to power machines.
And elaborate 3 dimensional rune like devices could be linked together to make a "Spell circut" to make "something happen" when power is sent through it by a power converter to make anything from techo-magic Fireball wands to "Forcefields" for "Weave-Punk" powered tanks (ewww,don't think that phraze,weave-punk, will catch on)
-Then they weren't in such a minority position, were they?
No. The term vocal minority exists for a reason. Radicals* are always louder than the more silent majority, that is disgusted with them most of the time and does not want to have anything to do with them after a while. If there is a valid alternative, the majority usually moves on, leaving the radicals behind.
*Don't take that expression to serious.
No. The term vocal minority exists for a reason. Radicals* are always louder than the more silent majority, that is disgusted with them most of the time and does not want to have anything to do with them after a while. If there is a valid alternative, the majority usually moves on, leaving the radicals behind.
Does that mean those voicing their displeasure over the changes are a radical vocal minority, or only those who seem to disagree with you? ;)
Um Ed Greenwood's Realms was nothing like a point of lights campaign...um maybe certain areas, but the whole world?
I think the opposite, actually.
Places like Cormyr were the points of light - but if you stepped outside of that 'light', watch out! The Stonelands? The Tunlands? The Stormhorns? The Thunderpeaks? The Vast Swamp?
Need I go on?
Outside of the civilized area, chaos reigned supreme. The north was filled with towns of people who could not safely travel more then five miles from home. Even other humans were ruthless barbarians! Calimshan and Waterdeep, the two largest and greatest cities in the Realms - you were on your own 50 miles from the city wall.
All of Faerûn fit the 'Points of Light' mark they are now shooting for, only because of years of novels and over-used plot-devices has all the 'wilderness' become tame. Go back to 1e and look at any of the Dales - outside of town you could get killed by goblinoids, Drow, Trolls, evil spirits, even Elves! Walking out back to the woodshed could turn into an encounter!
So, for anyone missing my point, thats what I meant by WotC 'turning back the clock' to an earlier point in the Realms, where ruins abound and adventure was just around the corner. ;)
It was never broken to begin with...........
WOTC appear to have considered this maxim, then decided to fix it anyway, by burning down it's house killing all the residents and salting it's fields.
maybe chautea should have pointed out that salted field don't bear crops.
Salty Undead... that taste like Beef Jerky.
I think the opposite, actually.
Places like Cormyr were the points of light - but if you stepped outside of that 'light', watch out! The Stonelands? The Tunlands? The Stormhorns? The Thunderpeaks? The Vast Swamp?
Need I go on?
Outside of the civilized area, chaos reigned supreme. The north was filled with towns of people who could not safely travel more then five miles from home. Even other humans were ruthless barbarians! Calimshan and Waterdeep, the two largest and greatest cities in the Realms - you were on your own 50 miles from the city wall.
All of Faerûn fit the 'Points of Light' mark they are now shooting for, only because of years of novels and over-used plot-devices has all the 'wilderness' become tame. Go back to 1e and look at any of the Dales - outside of town you could get killed by goblinoids, Drow, Trolls, evil spirits, even Elves! Walking out back to the woodshed could turn into an encounter!
So, for anyone missing my point, thats what I meant by WotC 'turning back the clock' to an earlier point in the Realms, where ruins abound and adventure was just around the corner. ;)
It was never broken to begin with...........
QFT,FTW. You get a
Does that mean those voicing their displeasure over the changes are a radical vocal minority, or only those who seem to disagree with you? ;)
Doomsayers are always a (very) vocal minority.
Having now done so much rule zeroing to have my campaign keep the flavor of the realms as I have come to know and love them any new materials is going to require the same amount or more work to revamp to suite my campaign as it would to simply create materials for it from generic sources or old resources (of which I have a plentitude) so why should I (or any other old realms fan that has been forced to restructure significantly) bother to spend any more of our hard earned cash on new resources?.
I don't know about others but I find that the campaigns of the "children" don't interest me much and that I would rather play with other adults. one of the things that made the realms so useful was that I could have a complex adult world to play in wihtout having to spend endless hours creating it on top of the endless hours I spend dealing with real life. Now that is gone and so my (and many of us oldtimer's) interest in the realms is gone.
I think the opposite, actually.
Places like Cormyr were the points of light - but if you stepped outside of that 'light', watch out! The Stonelands? The Tunlands? The Stormhorns? The Thunderpeaks? The Vast Swamp?
Need I go on?
Outside of the civilized area, chaos reigned supreme. The north was filled with towns of people who could not safely travel more then five miles from home. Even other humans were ruthless barbarians! Calimshan and Waterdeep, the two largest and greatest cities in the Realms - you were on your own 50 miles from the city wall.
All of Faerûn fit the 'Points of Light' mark they are now shooting for, only because of years of novels and over-used plot-devices has all the 'wilderness' become tame. Go back to 1e and look at any of the Dales - outside of town you could get killed by goblinoids, Drow, Trolls, evil spirits, even Elves! Walking out back to the woodshed could turn into an encounter!
So, for anyone missing my point, thats what I meant by WotC 'turning back the clock' to an earlier point in the Realms, where ruins abound and adventure was just around the corner. ;)
It was never broken to begin with...........
Cormry, Sembia, Amn, most of the South are pretty big points of light... you see I agree there are PoL in the Reralms but reading the PoL concept it is very simplistic...The Realms was more complex. Now there are removing the complexity to make it simple.
Well sorry but I hate when complex ideas are killed to make them simple.
-If they were such a minority, why did their departure condemn the setting?
I personnaly don't know squat about why Greyhawk died so I'm not arguing about that.
I do however understand Ubbergeek's sentiments towards the perceived grognardise here. Too often when I see people come to these forums for help with changing something in their realms, (be it gods, empires, NPC's, history or whatever) I have found the reactions such posts got to be (sorry) appalling. In essence, they got BOOO's and Assinine!'s.
Those posters will say "and rightfully so!"
It's an attitude that I believe can chase many potential realmsians away from the setting, and I also deem it possible it can eventually strangle the setting's potential fanbase/support completely.
It does not mean that if changes to the official realms are presented one can't express concern or disagreement. Otherwise nothing will be done about it. I guess there's just different ways to go about expressing something. Or different ways to respond to something.
In terms of "Points of Light", a lot will really come down to whether we would be looking at a very extreme version (ie, venture beyond your town/castle, and it's monster land, sort of like how most C-RPGs are), where trade would be basically unfeasible, or if we would be looking at something more on the lines of what we have now. That is, areas of relative stability, some as small as towns (Shadowdale), some as large as entire nations (Cormyr comes to mind). Beyond the borders of these areas, though, there are large areas of untamed wilderness, dotted with the ruins of ancient civilizations, where fell monsters lurk. Trade is possible, though even those who stick to well-traveled routes tend to go well-armed, and often in numbers for safety, et cetera...
To take some of the deific changes, for instance, Mystra dying doesn't really bother me - though I do want to see a new Mystra arise, even if not immediately. After all, killing off the Goddess of Magic is kind of an FR Tradition, really. :D Mystra est morte, vive Mystra!
Anyway, I certainly expect there will be changes. It's just a question of how far they go, and whether or not people (myself included) feel that it goes to far for their enjoyment of the gameworld, for them to accept. Hearing that a lot of the thoughts and reactions that have come out here, are at least being taken into consideration, does make me feel a bit better, and I will look forward to hearing more on what this will all come out to be.
I have to agree with Yaeri a little. I at one point posted a thread on making a timeline advanced FR, with a little magi-tech introduced. I was shot down hard at first, just because a few people thought I was trying to go eberron with the realms.( I have never played eberron, so makes it kinda hard.) A few people did offer some constructive things, a thanks goes to them, but the fact remains the the change I was making for a my campaign was thought to be wrong. This change may be really large, but like my idea, it does not nessecerely have to affect you.
I agree. This happened as often as not.
@Dragonheart: I don't know what you mean with the Realms being an 'adult world' and what's changing now.
For me, some of the deities were a big part of the setting, and the Weave - and all related to it - certainly were. Such changes are not to be made easily; from what I've gleaned the coming change is to be as big as probably the Time of Troubles. 3rd edition did introduce some serious changes in the realms - such as many more races having arcane casters - but the overall culture and religions did not change so much afaik.
I never really played 2E much in the Realms so I don't know if this is true, but all this arguing about the changing, new edition, new rules, blah blah blah happen when 3E was announced? Haven't the Realms flourished since then? Was the game made better? It's really opinion vs. opinion, but it doesn't mean it's the end of days for our Realms, just another turn of the wheel.
I suppose it is a matter of opinion, obviously, particularly with regard to quality.
But if you're judging it purely by the quantity of gaming material and lore put out by TSR and then WOTC, I think you'd have to admit that far from flourishing, the Realms have been barely breathing.
Take, for example, 2007: WOTC has put out the Cormyr, Shadowdale, and Anauroch trilogy, Expedition to Undermountain, which was a reprise, and Grand History of the Realms, something that had already been written, WOTC just bought the rights and put out a physical copy with art and maps.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but looking at my collection of TSR-produced products, I'm seeing a whole lot more.
N.B. Obviously, I'm ignoring the novels.
In terms of "Points of Light", a lot will really come down to whether we would be looking at a very extreme version (ie, venture beyond your town/castle, and it's monster land, sort of like how most C-RPGs are)
"Sort of like how most C-RPGs are," huh? Now that's an interesting thought.
Ever wonder what market WOTC is chasing?
I don't care for what we have read so far, but thats because we have been handed the watered-down plain vanilla version of the events. Why not give them a chance to explain them before we condemn them?
If they give us a story that sounds BOTH reasonable and Realmsian, then all may be well. I don't exactly have the highest hopes in that regard myself, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt....
For now.
A lot of this will really depend on the specifics of how the implement it, honestly.
QFT
I have to agree with Yaeri a little. I at one point posted a thread on making a timeline advanced FR, with a little magi-tech introduced. I was shot down hard at first, just because a few people thought I was trying to go eberron with the realms.( I have never played eberron, so makes it kinda hard.) A few people did offer some constructive things, a thanks goes to them, but the fact remains the the change I was making for a my campaign was thought to be wrong. This change may be really large, but like my idea, it does not nessecerely have to affect you.
My own campaign has deveated quite a bit from the canon Realms, but I have never seen this attitude when I describe things IMG. What I think your encountering, as some others are, is the attitude that certain changes are made for the wrong reasons.
You want to kill off the Chosen and Elminster, go for it, but explain to us why you did it and how it fits into known Realms lore and we will accept it. If you just say "I don't like them", then that doesn't sound like a very well-thought out reason. You can make any change you want to the Realms, and my own are rather drastic at times, but if you still keep the 'Realms flavor' with your change then most folks on here are usually very agreeable.
I personally LOVE to hear about what changes people have made, and will try to help them explain why such-and-such occurred in their version if asked. Basically, its all about how you 'come off' in your post that matters to most of us.
--- Mark T.
I don't care for what we have read so far, but thats because we have been handed the watered-down plain vanilla version of the events. Why not give them a chance to explain them before we condemn them?
If they give us a story that sounds BOTH reasonable and Realmsian, then all may be well. I don't exactly have the highest hopes in that regard myself, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt....
Ditto.
Now don't get me wrong, I find nothing wrong with saying some, many or even all the rumoured changes are undesirable or worrying. In another year, it will be too late to let the writers know what we think of it. They won't be able to change anything anymore then. Now is the time to let them know. But without lynchmobs, accusations of deliberately destroying the realms, Doom, woe, etc...
(I know you are being civil about it markus)
My own campaign has deveated quite a bit from the canon Realms, but I have never seen this attitude when I describe things IMG. What I think your encountering, as some others are, is the attitude that certain changes are made for the wrong reasons.
You want to kill off the Chosen and Elminster, go for it, but explain to us why you did it and how it fits into known Realms lore and we will accept it. If you just say "I don't like them", then that doesn't sound like a very well-thought out reason. You can make any change you want to the Realms, and my own are rather drastic at times, but if you still keep the 'Realms flavor' with your change then most folks on here are usually very agreeable.
I personally LOVE to hear about what changes people have made, and will try to help them explain why such-and-such occurred in their version if asked. Bascally, its all about how you 'come off' in your post that matters to most of us.
--- Mark T.
I know you do. Saying: "if you change this, remember that it has an impact on this or that bit of lore" is ok. Or "I really wouldn't do that because [insert reason]" Or "Do you want to stick closely to canon, cause if so you've got a problem here:..."
But the changes you're making in your game don't adhere to my style, or to my vision of what the realms are/should be so "That's assinine" "Don't play the realms then!" and whatnot really are quite a turnoff for me.
The heavy weights on this forum know a lot about the realms. They're very helpful and kind whenever someone needs to know anything about the realms. I've been helped quite a few times and I don't forget that. They seem like very nice people. But some don't seem to understand, that many people do not know every little bit of lore about the realms, and neither do their groups. Or don't care for their campaigns to be in line with the fine print or lore written in previous editions no longer for sale in the stores. And for those, when they make changes, it won't matter that it disrupts or contradicts things written.
For my current campaign I have added quite a big upheaval in the history of the realms. I would like that stuff that was never there before to fit as snugly as possible in the existing history. But I frankly didn't dare to come ask it on the forums. I get the vibe that making (big) changes is highly frowned upon, even in your own campaign with your own set of players.
I never really played 2E much in the Realms so I don't know if this is true, but all this arguing about the changing, new edition, new rules, blah blah blah happen when 3E was announced? Haven't the Realms flourished since then? Was the game made better? It's really opinion vs. opinion, but it doesn't mean it's the end of days for our Realms, just another turn of the wheel.
It is a matter of opinion...but I really don't think the Realms have flourished much since the end of the Time of Troubles. It was before this those changes were easily written out. This one isn't.
Ditto.
Now don't get me wrong, I find nothing wrong with saying some, many or even all the rumoured changes are undesirable or worrying. In another year, it will be too late to let the writers know what we think of it. They won't be able to change anything anymore then. Now is the time to let them know. But without lynchmobs, accusations of deliberately destroying the realms, Doom, woe, etc...
(I know you are being civil about it markus)
A bit of an emotional response was to be expected upon the first news of the changes in GHotR (or even the Orc King). I think much of it has subsided now. Many people are now voicing their concerns in a more constructive manner. Many are explaining why some of these changes set them off so much in the first place. Many are giving alternatives to implementing huge changes to the published Realms. Many are making arguments against why some of these moves will divide the fan-base or alienate large groups of players. There's a lot here, not all of it good obviously, but WotC would be wise to sort through some of this and see what makes sense. Most aren't expecting WotC to take their advice wholesale, most know the designers have to like something said here first before they even consider it. Personally and frankly I feel some people only remember one side of the forums; the side they don't like, it sets them off and they develop this negative impression of the people here.
I know you do. Saying: "if you change this, remember that it has an impact on this or that bit of lore" is ok. Or "I really wouldn't do that because [insert reason]" Or "Do you want to stick closely to canon, cause if so you've got a problem here:..."
But the changes you're making in your game don't adhere to my style, or to my vision of what the realms are/should be so "That's assinine" "Don't play the realms then!" and whatnot really are quite a turnoff for me.
The heavy weights on this forum know a lot about the realms. They're very helpful and kind whenever someone needs to know anything about the realms. I've been helped quite a few times and I don't forget that. They seem like very nice people. But some don't seem to understand, that many people do not know every little bit of lore about the realms, and neither do their groups. Or don't care for their campaigns to be in line with the fine print or lore written in previous editions no longer for sale in the stores. And for those, when they make changes, it won't matter that it disrupts or contradicts things written.
For my current campaign I have added quite a big upheaval in the history of the realms. I would like that stuff that was never there before to fit as snugly as possible in the existing history. But I frankly didn't dare to come ask it on the forums. I get the vibe that making (big) changes is highly frowned upon, even in your own campaign with your own set of players.
Maybe it's just me, but I've noticed a pattern to the sorts of threads you mention. The sorts of threads you're pointing out are far from innocent as you make them out to be. Most of the threads that draw the most flames are the "trolling" threads, where a detractor of one aspect of the Realms states an opinion as the only opinion everyone should follow (ie. Mystra/Elminster/Seven Sisters/Drizzt sucks, I killed them in my games, you should too! Kill! Kill! KILL!). They provide very little reason for this, they provide almost no plots or history behind this. It just happens.
How are people supposed to react? Most ignore it, some try to ask why as people are naturally curious, some shoot the person down as another troll (inciting reaction for no real reason). I noticed many of these sorts actually seem to harbor some irrational hate for certain characters, to the point where how they kill the characters in their games is actually excessively violent and humiliating (talk about wish fulfillment).
Many of these threads are just self-gloat threads. "I did this to the Realms, aren't I great!" There really is little to say to this, except knock them down a few pegs as is human nature. Honestly most can't take criticism, even constructive criticism. They misunderstand helping as direct irrational attacks on their ideas. The formet of this goes something like this: When Person 1 says "I gave Character X a spouse in my games," and Person 2 says "Oh, Character X already has a spouse, their name and details around found in 2e Book Y." I often see Person 1 reacting in a less than polite manner thinking Person 2 somehow shot down their idea in a very personal manner, when Person 2 was just stating an established fact. Their neutral, didactic tone is often taken for lecturing negativity.
Many of the times when a poster asks for feedback in a polite manner, taking time to say this is for their own games, most actually give them useful feedback. I think the main thing people forget is that the so called "Canon Nazis" aren't as fanatical and irrational as they think. The official setting is the only standardized form the setting has and from it all homebrew setting changes are derived from. It is the starting point, the even odds everyone starts from, it's the underlying common language of the Realms that everyone understands at least a little of. It is all anyone has to make any feedback on.
I'm not saying some posters here can't be mean sometimes for reasons other than what I stated, it happens, I will not deny it. Though I think most of the time it is the sorts of misunderstanding I outlined, but that's just my take on it.
There have been occasions where I brought up some idea or another and others said they personally wouldn't do it and here are the official setting reasons why your idea will not work. It can seem a bit harsh, but it's merely opinion supported by fact. It can seem daunting, it was when I first started posting here, but I soon found it to be helpful. You can't go into a thread asking for opinions but not actually wanting to hear any.
Personally and frankly I feel some people only remember one side of the forums; the side they don't like, it sets them off and they develop this negative impression of the people here.
I hope that what I said further down in my post made it clear that I don't wipe the good stuff off the table because of what I perceive as bad stuff.
Maybe it's just me, but I've noticed a pattern to the sorts of threads you mention. The sorts of threads you're pointing out are far from innocent as you make them out to be. Most of the threads that draw the most flames are the "trolling" threads, where a detractor of one aspect of the Realms states an opinion as the only opinion everyone should follow (ie. Mystra/Elminster/Seven Sisters/Drizzt sucks, I killed them in my games, you should too! Kill! Kill! KILL!). They provide very little reason for this, they provide almost no plots or history behind this. It just happens.
I'm not trying to make things seem something they are not. I'm not talking about trolling threads or threads like elminster vs superman, who would win? I'm talking about people changing something and wanting honest help. I deliberately did not give examples because I don't want to give the impression I'm targetting specific people. I would if I found those people complete a-holes, but their good side still outweighs their dark side.
Know what, I'll pm you one specific example, and we can drop this. There's nothing I'm trying to achieve here anyways. I just wanted to let know I understood what Ubbergeek was talking about. I don't want people here getting the impression I despise them or something.
I hope that what I said further down in my post made it clear that I don't wipe the good stuff off the table because of what I perceive as bad stuff.
Yes, you did.
I wasn't directing anything to you specifically, just the general feeling you pointed out which I can see in other posters here to varying degrees. In the end, everyone should just try to be nice to each other, even if we don't agree on some things.I'm not trying to make things seem something they are not. I'm not talking about trolling threads or threads like elminster vs superman, who would win? I'm talking about people changing something and wanting honest help. I deliberately did not give examples because I don't want to give the impression I'm targetting specific people. I would if I found those people complete a-holes, but their good side still outweighs their dark side.
Know what, I'll pm you one specific example, and we can drop this. There's nothing I'm trying to achieve here anyways. I just wanted to let know I understood what Ubbergeek was talking about. I don't want people here getting the impression I despise them or something.
I did point out in my previous post that such incidents could and do happen on occasion but I still feel most (but unfortunately not all) of them start from misunderstanding or blunt fact recital than any purposeful malice towards new ideas. I think it's a bit of a stereotype of Realms fans formed from the bad examples of a few (and sometimes only their worst examples due to a bad day or something), this amplified through the observer based on their personal takes.
Thank you for taking the time to elaborate a bit. Though I will have to disagree with you on a few posters. I'd like to think that when I'm optimistic about the new Realms I tried to back it up with a post by Rich Baker or something. A few just keep calling everyone who supports the old Realms and dislikes the new changes a grognard or something along those lines. I don't think that's very helpful at all and I think there would be greater reception of the pro-New-Realms side if those supporters made strong argument about why the specific changes bring about good things for the Realms.
Because Ed does not own the setting--he ultimately has no control over what WotC decides to do with it.
By the way (this is a general comment), I haven't read anything that indicates that these new changes are meant to "bring Ed's version of the Realms back" or any such nonsense.
Me neither, but it *does* give you hope, doesn't it? Even if they chose to go 'Points of Light' all the way, I think Ed may be able to do it "his way" and provide logical reasons for many of the things that happened -- make it all feel more "Realmish", so to speak.
Let's remember that all we've seen so far are just glimpses of what's to come, and many things may yet change. Besides, some decisions are probably made by the marketing executives, and thus it is a bit unfair to blame R&D designers for everything. Despite my own misgivings about some of the designers working on the 4th Edition Realms, I have complete faith in Rich, Steven, Eric, Ed, Tom, Eytan and the rest of the guys who truly *care* about FR. They *are* paying attention to what we're saying, and try to give us the best product they're able to make.
I never really played 2E much in the Realms so I don't know if this is true, but all this arguing about the changing, new edition, new rules, blah blah blah happen when 3E was announced? Haven't the Realms flourished since then? Was the game made better? It's really opinion vs. opinion, but it doesn't mean it's the end of days for our Realms, just another turn of the wheel.
Well, I've mentioned before that my disatisfaction with certain changes and aspects of the setting is hardly new.
I passionately disliked a certain, fairly recent novel trilogy (for both it's changing of canon as well as how it was written) long before I gave much thought about 4E.The most recent changes have been so numerous and so severe that, somewhere along the way, a single straw broke the camel's back. Being upset with change is nothing new, but if it gets to the point where I just can't take it anymore, I just have to say "enough is enough" and divorce my version of the Realms completely from WotC's.
Me neither, but it *does* give you hope, doesn't it? Even if they chose to go 'Points of Light' all the way, I think Ed may be able to do it "his way" and provide logical reasons for many of the things that happened -- make it all feel more "Realmish", so to speak.
Well, Asgetrion, like I've said, I've already decided that I'm not going to use the new version of the Realms, so I won't be needing logical reasons for all these changes (which I pretty much totally dislike).
That's not to say nothing good can come from information that I won't consider "canon" in my Realms, though. For example, Lisa Smedman's current trilogy about the drow and drow deities introduces changes that I will not and cannot abide, but at the same time it has given me great ideas for the background of a certain character I have, as well as information about the way priestesses of Eilistraee live and work.
Let's remember that all we've seen so far are just glimpses of what's to come, and many things may yet change. Besides, some decisions are probably made by the marketing executives, and thus it is a bit unfair to blame R&D designers for everything.
Maybe so. But those changes are still there, and even if they only represent the tip of the iceberg, I still hate them. I seriously doubt WotC will, say, bring back many (if any) of the gods I liked that they've killed off.
Despite my own misgivings about some of the designers working on the 4th Edition Realms, I have complete faith in Rich, Steven, Eric, Ed, Tom, Eytan and the rest of the guys who truly *care* about FR. They *are* paying attention to what we're saying, and try to give us the best product they're able to make.
Yes, they are paying attention, and like I said I'm happy about that. But I am also skeptical, and given my disappointment with certain design decisions that took place even before these recent changes were made public, that's just how I'm going to be. A little cynical too, perhaps. And this might sound mean, but I can't honestly say I have great "faith" in every single name you mentioned. It's truly nothing personal, but if one of those people happened to write a novel trilogy that I passionately disliked one more than one level, is there any rational reason for me to look forward to that person's creative work? Like I said--it's nothing personal at all, but if I've been disappointed in the past, I see no reason to be optimistic about things over and over again. It simply defies logic.
Ditto.
For my current campaign I have added quite a big upheaval in the history of the realms. I would like that stuff that was never there before to fit as snugly as possible in the existing history. But I frankly didn't dare to come ask it on the forums. I get the vibe that making (big) changes is highly frowned upon, even in your own campaign with your own set of players.
Big changes only bother me when they happen in the canon, WotC Realms.
No one else's campaign affects my Realms, and nothing I do with my Realms affects anyone else--it's truly beautiful.
ANYTHING designed by a business committee bears serious watching, including possibly an oversight committee of its own.
Sometimes you have to wonder what people are actually thinking during these meetings. To give a recent example has anyone attempted to watch the new Flash Gordon series?
What amazes me is that not only did an entire film company - writers, director, producer, etc - think it was good after reveiwing the footage, but a network (Sci-Fi cnannel) looked it over and thought their viewers might like it.
Were they all blind?
It never ceases to amaze me when a small group of people can convince themselves a wretched idea is a good one.
Not that I'm pointing any fingers or anything...
Well, Asgetrion, like I've said, I've already decided that I'm not going to use the new version of the Realms, so I won't be needing logical reasons for all these changes (which I pretty much totally dislike).
That's not to say nothing good can come from information that I won't consider "canon" in my Realms, though. For example, Lisa Smedman's current trilogy about the drow and drow deities introduces changes that I will not and cannot abide, but at the same time it has given me great ideas for the background of a certain character I have, as well as information about the way priestesses of Eilistraee live and work.
I don't like those changes either, but I am truly hoping that Ed and the others can still do something about them. I am more concerned about how they will be able to logically incorporate so many new elements into the setting (the Eladrin, the Warforged, the new 'traditions' of magic, etc.). Still, if anyone can pull it off, it's Ed. We'll see how it all turns out to be -- I might not even pick up any 4E books, but I try to keep a cool head until we get more solid information.
Maybe so. But those changes are still there, and even if they only represent the tip of the iceberg, I still hate them. I seriously doubt WotC will, say, bring back many (if any) of the gods I liked that they've killed off.
You know, I never meant to aim these words personally at you!
(and hopefully you didn't misunderstand my intentions as such). I was just "chiming in" to remind people that there's no point in blatantly insulting the designers. Your words about these 'deicides' echo mine as well -- there's no way Tyr ever killing Helm in *my* Realms. However, if (and that's a very BIG if) 4E turns out to be to my taste after all (i.e. almost everything we've seen so far of the mechanics don't end up being in 4E) I think I'll check out FRCS and consider taking out those "canon" details that I don't like (which is what you and me have both been doing with 3E lore as well ). And perhaps, just perhaps, Ed might be able to "resurrect" some of those deities. By the way, I just thought to mention that I felt the same way about ToT -- I was initially *very* angry about that they had killed off the three deities that I liked best in the Realms (Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul). Yes, they are paying attention, and like I said I'm happy about that. But I am also skeptical, and given my disappointment with certain design decisions that took place even before these recent changes were made public, that's just how I'm going to be. A little cynical too, perhaps. And this might sound mean, but I can't honestly say I have great "faith" in every single name you mentioned. It's truly nothing personal, but if one of those people happened to write a novel trilogy that I passionately disliked one more than one level, is there any rational reason for me to look forward to that person's creative work? Like I said--it's nothing personal at all, but if I've been disappointed in the past, I see no reason to be optimistic about things over and over again. It simply defies logic.
Well, I have felt the same way about some of the RSEs we've been "bombarded" with lately, but I guess you're referring to the events of the 'Last Mythal' -trilogy with you comments? While I might not ever incorporate those events into my campaigns, I really enjoyed the novels. I found them to be well-written and exciting -- not to mention that you could actually convert most parts into a high-level campaign, if you wanted to.
But I understand your feelings and why you feel so skeptical about 4E -- I share most of your concerns, but I still have faith in Rich! ;) First, I dislike the fact that they are trying to generacize the Campaign settings. While on paper it may seem to be a good idea to make all the campaign settings interchangable, it takes away the flavor and uniqueness of the setting. They kill the weaves, and more than likely the changes to the dieties are being done so that the remaining dieties are easily interchangable with the core ones, or Ebberron ones. For example they produce a modual based around a temple of Nerul. They can now insert a paragraph in the preface saying, "If you are playing in the Realms, simply change Nerul to Velarashoon. If you are playing in Eberron, please change the Diety to...".
So instead of Realm specific campaign mods, we will get these generic boiler plate ones, with places to insert the right city names and dieties. Or worse, we will get more Realms campaigns like Expedition to Undermountain, where they rip out all the Realms specific elements, and then prostitute the carcass to the other settings.
I like the Realms, because of their unique flavor. The special quirks and differences that make it stand out from the core books and other settings. I haven't been a Realms fan for all that long... Maybe 6 years or so. Before that I was a hard core Dragon Lance fan, and had been since I was a kid. I loved the quirky magic system, I loved the Patheon, the knights of Solamnia, the minataurs, Kender, and Gully Dwarfs. I loved all the things that set it apart from all the the rest of the fantasy worlds. Then came Dragons of Summer Flame, and Krynn ceased to be the Krynn I loved.
This new direction by WotC has me concerned. I play in a specific campaign setting, for the setting. It's because of it's differences and quirks that I play them. When you take out all the things that add flavor, what your left with is pretty bland.
On to my 2nd problem.
I've bought a lot of books over the past year. Some for lore (like Lords of Ruin), others for Crunch (Tome of Battle). While I can accept that with a new system the Crunch must necessarily be changed, I'll still be a little upset that they introduced a bunch of new systems, and then never suported them because of the new edition coming out. It would have helped if 3.5 could be converted to 4th edition. However it seems like that won't be feasible.
To make matters worse, most of the books I bought for lore are going to be obsolete as well. The setting has changed so much, that I can't think of a single Realms book I own that is untouched by it. And not just touched in a small and subtle way. No, most of the places have been forcibly violated. Sadly, I can only see this as a marketing ploy to sell more books.
So I am now forced to make a financial decision. Do I accept that nearly my entire realms collection is now 90% obsolete (with only the history being in tact, leaving Lost Empires of Faerun and GHotR still mostly usefull), and rebuy from the ground up? Or do I just ignore the changes and stick to my old books. Right now I am having a hard time finding enthusiasm for $D.
I don't like those changes either, but I am truly hoping that Ed and the others can still do something about them. I am more concerned about how they will be able to logically incorporate so many new elements into the setting (the Eladrin, the Warforged, the new 'traditions' of magic, etc.). Still, if anyone can pull it off, it's Ed. We'll see how it all turns out to be -- I might not even pick up any 4E books, but I try to keep a cool head until we get more solid information.
Yes, I agree that if anyone can do it, it's Ed, and at the very least I'd like to say what he has to SAY about all this.
You know, I never meant to aim these words personally at you!
I did not, don't worry.
You're just trying to talk about this with me, and I appreciate that. My strong feelings aren't directed at any person in particular, it's really all about the situation.I was just "chiming in" to remind people that there's no point in blatantly insulting the designers.
I agree--there's no call to take things to a personal level. The designers are after all just people.
Your words about these 'deicides' echo mine as well -- there's no way Tyr ever killing Helm in *my* Realms. However, if (and that's a very BIG if) 4E turns out to be to my taste after all (i.e. almost everything we've seen so far of the mechanics don't end up being in 4E) I think I'll check out FRCS and consider taking out those "canon" details that I don't like (which is what you and me have both been doing with 3E lore as well
And I've mentioned in another thread that I might have been angry about the ToT myself if I hadn't come to the setting after it was established.
And the Baldur's Gate series--which initially drew me to the Realms--is also inescapably steeped in the ToT story.I will certainly check out the FRCS. Maybe not buy it, but I'll check it out. I am just skeptical and sad over all the changes that have been put out for us to chew on--so far, all of them have been destructive rather than constructive, and all of them have really rubbed me the wrong way.
Well, I have felt the same way about some of the RSEs we've been "bombarded" with lately, but I guess you're referring to the events of the 'Last Mythal' -trilogy with you comments? While I might not ever incorporate those events into my campaigns, I really enjoyed the novels. I found them to be well-written and exciting -- not to mention that you could actually convert most parts into a high-level campaign, if you wanted to.
Yes, you've guessed correctly. I disliked the LM novels not only because of the changes they introduced to the setting, but also because I simply did not find them to be good novels. On the other hand, while I really hate the changes the Lady Penitient series is bringing to the table, I can't deny that Lisa Smedman is writing some great page-turners, and as I said they've given me valuable glimpses into the followers of Eilistraee.
To give a recent example has anyone attempted to watch the new Flash Gordon series?
Forget that one, how about that new Geico Caveman series coming out
Markus, what about the new Battlestar Galactica series (just to stay in the confines of your analgoy)? It surpasses the original in quality by far, but does a lot of stuff a different way.
I wasn't making social comentary about weather a new version could possibly surpass the original, but rather that people actually looked it over and thought it was good.
I don't care what they called it or based it on, it was still an unwatchable mess - garbage is still garbage, no matter how you cover it up.
Battlestar Galatica was done so superbly that it stands apart from the original, and both can be appreciated for what they are in their respective times. This is exactly how I feel about the 'new' Realms. Its not the old - thats gone now - but the new one deserves a chance and perhaps it can stand on its own merits, and only time will tell.
What about the new Battlestar Galactica series? It surpasses the original in quality by far, but does a lot of stuff a different way.
At the risk of drawing innumerable flames — the original Battlestar wasn't very good. I enjoyed it when it came on, and I was five; I'd even watch it now when up against reality TV. But, it wasn't a particularly well-thought-out series — the Cylon gunslinger episode comes to mind.
On the other hand, the Realms started out very good, arguably great. It had been in development for around twenty years by the time it was published, and playtested for ten. It was the result of what I can only assume was a feverish and inspired mind. It wasn't childish (as opposed to the original BSG), if anything, TSR tamed the setting. But it still had plenty of storylines, conflict, and room for expansion. And no Boxey or Muffit.
At the risk of drawing innumerable flames — the original Battlestar wasn't very good. I enjoyed it when it came on, and I was five; I'd even watch it now when up against reality TV. But, it wasn't a particularly well-thought-out series — the Cylon gunslinger episode comes to mind.
On the other hand, the Realms started out very good, arguably great. It had been in development for around twenty years by the time it was published, and playtested for ten. It was the result of what I can only assume was a feverish and inspired mind. It wasn't childish (as opposed to the original BSG), if anything, TSR tamed the setting. But it still had plenty of storylines, conflict, and room for expansion. And no Boxey or Muffit.
You don't know how glad I am that they only had Boxey in the mini-series. :D
But I think the analogy fits. The original BSG was good. In it's time. As much as the original Realms were good. In their time. I wouldn't want to play in the 1e or 2e realms today.
Maybe they weren't childish, but I think they were very juvenile. And I especially mean the artwork and the novels here.
That is all. ;)
The moment that Richard Baker used the words "Story" and "Team" in the same sentance, I knew we were in serious trouble.
ANYTHING designed by a business committee bears serious watching, including possibly an oversight committee of its own.
What did you expect from a game... "company"...?
They're not going to hang it all on one person. Especially considering the fact that it's a shared world.
Of course, anything designed by a bunch of people with business on the brain is definitely worth being wary of, yes...
The only thing good about the new Flash Gordon is the fact that the actor is kind of hot (depending on his haircut and the angle his face is shot at).
The women are attractive as well... but I still can't watch it.
I almost threw a shoe through my TV screen the other day, because I couldn't find the remote fast enough when it came on.
You don't know how glad I am that they only had Boxey in the mini-series. :D
But I think the analogy fits. The original BSG was good. In it's time. As much as the original Realms were good. In their time. I wouldn't want to play in the 1e or 2e realms today.
Maybe they weren't childish, but I think they were very juvenile. And I especially mean the artwork and the novels here.
Oddly, the New Realms seems like it wants to hark back to the days of the 1e Realms when there aren't so many named NPCs, where entire regions are "dark", where there were fewer gods mentioned.
I don't mind taking some changes that I dislike along with some that I do - that's the nature of how it goes. The question becomes where the threshold of tolerance for each of us lies, and for the average Realms fan as a whole.
Some people will complain about specific things. Personally, I'll take some things in stride, even if I'm not one hundred percent happy with them overall. Other things, I do happen to enjoy, at least on the whole. For instance, I'm generally happy with the reclaiming of Myth Drannor, and I've enjoyed the Lady Penitent series.
Some things concern me, though - the notion of eliminating Mystra completely (I believe she at least needs a new Mystra to replace her eventually), some of the changes that may be imposed by standard 4e rules (demon/devil alterations, changes to Elves/Eladrin, etc), and so on. These things can be fairly easily dealt with though, and in many ways are a question of how they are handled.
What worries me the most, I think, (and I did not have this in mind when I last posted) is the notion of jumping forward a significant time into the future. While this gives the advantage of 'clearing the slate', it will also destroy the vast majority of the continuity between the current Realms that we know and love, and the new one.
My fear is that the final product will be a de facto new campaign world, that will end up bearing superficial similarities to the old Forgotten Realms, but in which most of the old NPCs are dead and gone, a number of the areas have changed, at least moderately, combined with what we have already heard about the significant changes to the pantheons.
While I would certainly be interested to see a vision of such a future Realms, I would consider it much in the same way that I saw the 2nd Edition Arcane Age products - that is, an alternate Campaign Setting, or a resource to use in conjunction with the 'main' setting. I bought those, and enjoyed them a great deal, but I would not have wanted TSR to have abandoned printing the 1260/1270DR era Realms products in favor of nothing but Arcane Age ones.
What I would rather see, honestly, is a main campaign setting placed somewhere prior to 1300DR, at least. That's my two cents on that aspect.
My fear is that the final product will be a de facto new campaign world, that will end up bearing superficial similarities to the old Forgotten Realms, but in which most of the old NPCs are dead and gone, a number of the areas have changed, at least moderately, combined with what we have already heard about the significant changes to the pantheons.
This is what they want to do - and they thought we were just going to roll over and take it.
What I would rather see, honestly, is a main campaign setting placed somewhere prior to 1300DR, at least. That's my two cents on that aspect.
Pick-up Dragon Magazine #228.
Best issue EVA. Ed Greenwood wrote an article called The Athalantan Campaign, and the whole thing takes place around the time Elminster was born - 212 DR!
BTW, the issue is worth getting just for the extensive and interesting timeline alone - none of which appears in the GHotR, even though there are at least a 1/2 dozen other small kingdoms referenced that don't appear anywhere else.
Intriguing tidbits, like the enslavement of the centaurs by humans...
Then, to top it all off, you decide to slay Mystra completely in 1385, screw every spellcaster and form of magic in the Realms with this Spellplague junk, and then say only greater deities managed to live, so now you killed off EVERY deity instead of the greater gods.
However, the notion of killing off Mystra, followed by the deaths of a multitude of other gods, combined with an apocalyptic level plague that presumably shifts the Realms to a world that looks vastly different than the one that exists now is something that I personally believe is very unnecessary, and will change the tenor of the setting into something that I was not looking for in the Forgotten Realms.
Not to mention Mystra :raincloud
How does my Fighter being capable at 15th level soothe my ire at Mystra being slain again?
So now I am faced with the prospect of creating mechanics that fit the with flavor of being a cleric of Leira(or Helm, or Mystra because sorry but they are being killed in my Realms either) in a completely new system...and have to make it balanced and work properly.
Considering Mystra and the Weave is an "interface" to the raw "Ether" that mages of other Realms lakcking godlings of magic can tap into directly, all that has to happen is that the Mages and Sorcerers learrn to cast Magic from drawing directly from the source magic instead of being spoonfed it by Mystra and the Weave the way the Ancients did. (of course irrisponsibility with the raw stuff can lead to Magical armegedon)
...And many other quotes!
Does anyone else find yet another slaying of Mystra a bit redundant? Why could they not have come up with something a bit more original?
"Oh, we have to have yet another Realms Shaking Event to compensate for the new 4e rules set, what should we do? :lightbulb I know! Let's kill Mystra! Oh, and not enough gods died during the Time of Troubles, so why don't we kill more this time?"
Now I get nauseous.
Designers... thanks for that.
Now I get nauseous.
The same nauseous feeling that stayed with me for a full week after they announced 4e is back.
At least we don't get that astral sea crap.
Richard Baker Must Be Stopped!
(Agrees that Rich Baker must be stopped)
Markus, that was dead on. Apparently, they're keeping the tree and not going back to the wheel, which makes me sigh a little bit more, but it's a necessary evil.
At least we don't get that astral sea crap.
Richard Baker Must Be Stopped!
Actualy we are getting the astral sea... Richard Baker has said the FR is getting the New Cosomolgy. There are just some name changes to protect what is left of the FR Flavor( not that that ever stood a chance vs 4th edition).
I first experienced D&D through Dragonlance. Our first adventures were set on Krynn. Chronicles was the first 300 page novel trilogy I ever read, and I was hooked.
Then Dragons of Summer Flame happened, and those GAWD AWFUL Saga rules with the ridiculous cards came out, and I began to dislike Dragonlance. I still gamed in the old-school "pre-dragon overlord" world until a friend pressed a copy of The Crystal Shard into my hands, but I knew I wasn't on board for this new Dragonlance.
I'm still rooting for FR, though. As long as Greenwood and RAS and a few others I follow keep writing, I'll have all I'll need to carry on at least with my current campaign, which is set in Age of Worms, another example of that cookie-cutter template idea having some success (switch Vecna for Myrkul or Bane, Hextor for Tempus, etc.).
I've been eyeing the new 2nd edition Conan RPG, so if it gets really bad with FR, I think I have an out. ;)
Welcome to Core world status Realms, it's fun having everything genericized and changed to fit crunch instead of vice versa, eh?
(Agrees that Rich Baker must be stopped)
Welcome to the web, where heated opinions bypass cooler heads.
Heated comments they may be, but they are heated comments based on Realmslore and theme analysis.
Instead, what we should be doing is trying to remain relatively calm in our attempts to explain why we have issues with the changes we are hearing about, in specific. Ideally, we want to promote and provoke dialogue about what can be done to mitigate the aspects that bother us the most. I don't expect that we will see all of the changes eliminated, but I think that it is possible to end up with something that we can all live with, that does not leave us feeling like the game world we know and love has been gutted, destroyed, or anything of the sort.
Perhaps, if people would like a rallying cry of sorts, something focused on a change that is seen as more problematic might be a better suggestion (e.g., "Save the Seven Sisters - Ask WoTC to reconsider the drastic Realms changes!" just to make an offhand example). The emotions that people have invested in this debate are quite understandable, but heated emotions can be an obstacle to reaching a compromise/consensus, just as much as they can be a drive to speak out for one's beliefs.
"Rich Baker must be stopped!" might make some of us feel a little better, it's likely not going to help matters.
You know it's a reference to the Punic Wars, right?
Because it sure did help Rome destroy Carthage. ;)
I like what they're doing. They're taking out their .45 and going up to all of the unnecessary gods and npcs and putting them down. Maybe they'll put the setting back into the hands of the gamers from the hands of the novelists.
That'll happen when the novels aren't considered automatic canon, so that remains to be seen. Of course the sourcebooks aren't exempt from heavy handed setting meta-plotting either.
I like what they're doing. They're taking out their .45 and going up to all of the unnecessary gods and npcs and putting them down. Maybe they'll put the setting back into the hands of the gamers from the hands of the novelists.
So the designers played too much Grand Theft Auto while jacked up on Starbucks?
They were right... that game does rot your brain....
If I can find a hall or rent a big enough room near Gencon next year, I'm thinking of hosting an 'Irish Funeral' for the Realms. :P
We'll all get drunk and send the old girl off with a bang.
I like what they're doing. They're taking out their .45 and going up to all of the unnecessary gods and npcs and putting them down. Maybe they'll put the setting back into the hands of the gamers from the hands of the novelists.
um...killing the "unnecessary" gods and and NPCs is taking the games out of the player's hand.
And I rather doubt they will stop cannon novels.
LGMoses - Unnecessary is in the eye of the beholder. What may seem like an unnecessary god or npc to some of the Realms' Adherents may not be so to others, nevermind to a majority of them. The more that are removed in a permanent official manner, the larger the percentage of fans that are inclined to object becomes. Killing God A may not bother me (I never liked him anyway), but killing God B will wreck that campaign idea I had, while the loss of God A will ruin the character idea my friend has been mulling for the past month or two, et cetera.
On the other hand, it isn't terribly hard to please both the groups that dislike the large number of gods and npcs, and those that do. Simply keep them optional - and keep them out of the main book, in such a way that it's not necessary to run an FR campaign with them. Those who don't want them can ignore them, those who do can buy the extra book(s).
I happen to like a lot of the gods and characters. While there are some I'm ambivalent about, and I can certainly live with the loss of some (it is, after all, a living world, and people do die), a mass slaughter bothers me. I remember how I felt after something similar happened in Dragonlance, and I'm not looking forward to it occuring in the Forgotten Realms.
If I can find a hall or rent a big enough room near Gencon next year, I'm thinking of hosting an 'Irish Funeral' for the Realms. :P
We'll all get drunk and send the old girl off with a bang.
Will you be using "cannon" novels?
Will you be using "cannon" novels?
ROFL
;)
Markus, that was dead on. Apparently, they're keeping the tree and not going back to the wheel, which makes me sigh a little bit more, but it's a necessary evil.
At least we don't get that astral sea crap.
Richard Baker Must Be Stopped!
This is what Rich Baker had to say on the Realms and the new Cosmology:
I'm sure this is probably more than I ought to say right now, but yes.
Of course, the particular astral dominions that will exist in Faerun's cosmology will correspond to the Realms pantheon. So you'll see Arvandor, House of the Triad, Warrior's Rest, etc., as shaken up by events of the Spellplague (no more Dweomerheart, for example).
Faerie's been touched on several times in Realmslore (for example, Elaine's novels). The Shadowfell and Plane of Shadow are pretty much the same thing. The Inner Planes are getting resorted to the Elemental Chaos, but no one ever went there before anyway, so it should be fine. We've got some details to work out on the interaction of the Fugue Plane with all this, but other than that, the new cosmology is going to be Faerun's cosmology.Now, and actual question for the designers:
Will the Realms be converting to this new cosmology?
It is interesting, but it does not feel like it belongs in the Realms to me. Of course, the players from 2e and before probably found the cosmology found in The 3e FRCS and PGtF pretty strange as well.
If you are interested, jump there and spread the voice: the more we are, the more likely they are to hear us.
I've heard of the Jericho TV show: of how it was calnceled and of how the fans were able to have it re-scheduled sending one nut each to make the productors know how much they wanted Jericho back and how many they were.
Or the TV show Firefly, for which the community efforts meant that the movie Serenity has been made.
So I was thinking of the Forgotten Realms and how many times I read disappointment on these forums for what it has been announced for the incoming 4E.
So this thread is not for discussion. I don't want to start another such thread. I'd like this thread to become the place where disappointed Forgotten Realms fans can say their word about announced 4E changes to the Realms. Please don't make this thread a place for tantrums: it has to be a peaceful, quiet gathering.
If you want to say 'no' to announced FR changes, then post here the words "I'm a defender of the Realms". Just this, to let WotC know how many we are, how much we like and love the Forgotten Realms as we know them.
Let's spread this initiative: tell to friends and communities.
Alone we are but a voice in the storm. Togheter we are the storm.
PS Here is a link to White Wizard's thread.
I have started a thread on the 4E dedicated forums (Concerns and Criticism) of which I'll quote here my opening post.
If you are interested, jump there and spread the voice: the more we are, the more likely they are to hear us.
Personally, I think it was a mistake to put THAT in the general 4e forums. Most of the other setting lovers are agro'ed over us getting first love.
Little do they know, we wish it on THEM.
EDIT: just found this and I thought it funny as hell -
For what it is worth, last week I started this thread for us to list what make us love the Realms. I keep hoping (maybe in vain) one or more of the FR designer-types (who are supposedly Realms lovers themselves) will post what makes them love the Realms as well.
PS Here is a link to White Wizard's thread.
Thanks for the links (both of them!).
EDIT: just found this and I thought it funny as hell -
It suits perfectly!
Thanks for the links (both of them!).
It suits perfectly!
It can't be better :D
That'll happen when the novels aren't considered automatic canon, so that remains to be seen. Of course the sourcebooks aren't exempt from heavy handed setting meta-plotting either.
And same goes for adventures, nowadays.
*laughs at the anti-Warforged picture*
I like what they're doing. They're taking out their .45 and going up to all of the unnecessary gods
But why? It just annoys longtime players. There is absolutely no reason to whittle down the number of gods. If it makes for an interesting story/module OK fine. If its just to limit the number of gods, well, then why do it? I have to yet to hear to actual explanation.
On the other hand, while I really hate the changes the Lady Penitient series is bringing to the table, I can't deny that Lisa Smedman is writing some great page-turners, and as I said they've given me valuable glimpses into the followers of Eilistraee.
Sadly, whatever the outcome in the series will be, Drizzt has already noted in 'The orc King' how he watched the rise (and fall) of the goodly followers of Eilistraee. I also understood that Eilistraee will be dead, too.
I gues we could always look at the bright side - now it won't take 3 books to do all the gods properly, like they did in 2e.
So, I figure eight gods with a 20-page Stat block each (size 24 font) should be about right for 160 page book.
Unless, of course, they plan on reducing page counts again, in which case more gods will have to die.
Who's up for Monotheism? :P
If Drow of the Underdark was any indication (or a glimpse into the future Realms), then yeah, she's a goner.
I gues we could always look at the bright side - now it won't take 3 books to do all the gods properly, like they did in 2e.
So, I figure eight gods with a 20-page Stat block each (size 24 font) should be about right for 160 page book.
Unless, of course, they plan on reducing page counts again, in which case more gods will have to die.
Who's up for Monotheism? :P
I'm just curious as to when the Silver Flame will be headed to the Realms
I'm just curious as to when the Silver Flame will be headed to the Realms
I've always wondered that as well. It seemed somewhat thematically adaptable.
j/k
So, I figure eight gods with a 20-page Stat block each (size 24 font) should be about right for 160 page book.
4th edition is going to use a new 60 page format. :P
J/K (I think
)Markus, what about the new Battlestar Galactica series (just to stay in the confines of your analogy)? It surpasses the original in quality by far, but does a lot of stuff a different way.
They actually reach Earth in the original Series and it got Hokey only when they tried to do the Spin off of them "secretly" adjusting to life on Earth while the Cylons were, for some reason, didn't brother to try a full attack on earth considering they did wipe out the original 12 colonies of man with litte trouble...pffft (Comon all those base ships v.s. only 1 Battle Star?)
Flash Gordon? Like the 80's Movie with the "comic Book feel" where Ming was "dead" in 2 hours...lol
EDIT: just found this and I thought it funny as hell -
This also works for a no warforged in the Realms protest too... not only is it brillant it is also duel purpose.
I'm toying with the idea of writing a sequence of "Course Correction" fanfiction short stories based on what we know... I'm not the most reliable of people, and my writing may not interest everyone, but I may end up setting up a small website for them.
I've written one already, which deals with Eilistraee and Mystra (with the possible result of no dead Mystra, though I've left it on a cliffhanger)... The next one I might do (if the muse strikes, the plot bunny is currently only half formed - you've no idea how disturbing a half formed plot bunny is!) will be Sune/Tymora/Helm/Tyr/Siamorphe/Ilmater and see what sense I can make out of that mess.
I guess this is my way of coping with what's going down at the moment.
Obviously, they want new gamers and us older gamers are getting axed. They say the Realms is intimidating to new guys...but who says the new guys HAVE to know all the information at once in order to get a game going? The point of the Realms is to explore such a big world a little bit at a time, and anyone, new or old, can accomplish that by building adventures based around recently read material or introducing that material slowly into their Realms games.
WotC is going about this all the wrong way and I think it's truly their way of destroying what made the Realms popular for 20+ years in order to attract the World of Warcraft crowd just to make, what they hope, is a big buck. It's no longer the Forgotten Realms, it's an entirely NEW campaign setting and I dare someone to argue otherwise.
The setting needs a new name change to represent this brand new, non-Forgotten Realms setting.
Please change the Forgotten Realms to:
The Sundered Realms
I just posted this to a couple of threads elsewhere, but I figured I'd put it here, too:
Hey Eberron fans,
I'm very pleased to be able to take a break from my work on the Player's Handbook to come on the boards today and tell you something I think you'll be happy to hear:
We hear you.
We've decided that the 4E Eberron Campaign Setting will not advance the timeline of the setting. The campaign starting year will still be 998YK, and we won't present major changes to the setting except as necessary to bring 4E elements into the world.
It's my hope that we'll be able to sketch out possible directions that events might take, but do that in the same way we do in our 3E sourcebooks—as options, possibilities, suggestions you might want to incorporate into your game. That's how we'll sneak in some of the ideas we've been kicking around.
Novels won't become canon. The world won't change according to the events of The Draconic Prophecies or any other novel. Your campaign will remain your campaign.
Let me thank you all again for your love for Eberron and the passion you put into your games. As exasperated as I get sometimes, you folks are the reason I do and love my job.
Keep playing!
I feel warm and fuzzy for you Eberron fans. All the while I will continue to mourn what is happening to the Realms until the FR Staff tells us something positive.
Sadly, whatever the outcome in the series will be, Drizzt has already noted in 'The orc King' how he watched the rise (and fall) of the goodly followers of Eilistraee. I also understood that Eilistraee will be dead, too.
We don't know yet what the outcome will be, but I have the feeling Eilistraee isn't going to make it. Don't quote me on that, though.;)
And the changes Eilistraee is undergoing right now (even as of book 2) are just another reason for me not to care about the official version of the FR anymore.
Well, even if they do not love us anymore, WotC obviously loves and listens to their Eberron fans. The following quote is from James Wyatt's blog.
Boy, am I jealous of the Eberron fans. Really. The timeline for that setting wasn't even that huge (2 years!), but the fans got exactly what they asked for.
Wonder why it's so different in our case?
Was Earth not Earth anymore after the atrocity that was the 20th century?
And yes, pre-20th century Earth and post-20th century Earth are vastly different.
Well, even if they do not love us anymore, WotC obviously loves and listens to their Eberron fans. The following quote is from James Wyatt's blog.
I feel warm and fuzzy for you Eberron fans. All the while I will continue to mourn what is happening to the Realms until the FR Staff tells us something positive.
those bleeping bleepity bleeps. How dare they listen to one set of fans but not the others.
I do wish the Realms designers would listen to the best ideas from the fans like they have done so for Eberron, but that is an issue I have with Realms designers specifically. I mean, if Eberron is a successful gamer-centric D&D setting then why don't the Realms designers adapt something of the model for the Realms. Instead they give us more things that most have claimed made the Realms unappealing, especially the anti-Mystra, anti-Chosen, anti-novel crowd. They claim to be listening but I think they can merely hear noise and mistake it for comprehension.
(And fleshing out some bits/themes of the world more, but Eberron, nonetheless.)
Richard Baker Must Be Stopped.
Wow. Wizards decided to listen to the fans of Eberron. It gives me some hope that in some office the Realms designers are struggling to find a way to erase the last two pages of GHotR and chapter one of orc king.:D
I have read the opening bit of the Orc King. I'm choosing at this point to believe its a "Days of Future Past" type of thing. A future that may be and I'm hoping the Realms just jumps 10 years not the insane idea of jumping 100 years.
In fact, that type of plot twist or literary technique is not a terrible thing. It worked for that particular comic series. It was also an interesting end to last year's "Lost". So lets pray for that
Wow. Wizards decided to listen to the fans of Eberron. It gives me some hope that in some office the Realms designers are struggling to find a way to erase the last two pages of GHotR and chapter one of orc king.:D
I don't want to be pessimistic about this, but I am. I don't want to say anything bad about the designers, but this will end up not casting them in a positive light. Whoever made the decision to wait with Eberron 4E should get employee of the month at WotC. The Realms designers shot themselves in the foot by passing permanent major changes to the setting prematurely. They revealed those bits in the worst possible way, using what was supposed to be a history book on the past of the Realms with the limited space of a timeline entry. They could not hope to express any complexity, if indeed there was any. They also let the Orc King prologue through, which only adds fuel to the fire. Now for better or worse, the Realms is saddled with these changes and this negative perception from many of the old fans (the "new" fans seem to give a big meh or an okay at best). Eberron's designers come in as the hero, who saw the mess of what the Realms became and quickly addressed similar issues with Eberron. The Realms probably cannot take back the Spellplague even if they wanted, to do so would make the designers admit to incompetence. That's not a problem since they will not take it back, probably will not even lessen the affect or scale.
I am very happy for Eberron. I mean this in all seriousness. I am truly happy, I thought maybe it was disguised jealousy, but I couldn't bring myself to be jealous. It's great to hear that Eberron will remain close to its original flavor despite the 4e changes. It literally and honestly brought a smile to my face.
I do wish the Realms designers would listen to the best ideas from the fans like they have done so for Eberron, but that is an issue I have with Realms designers specifically. I mean, if Eberron is a successful gamer-centric D&D setting then why don't the Realms designers adapt something of the model for the Realms. Instead they give us more things that most have claimed made the Realms unappealing, especially the anti-Mystra, anti-Chosen, anti-novel crowd. They claim to be listening but I think they can merely hear noise and mistake it for comprehension.
I won't be too sure about this. Remember FR fans had Richard Baker say they will be not altering the setting in a way to enforce PoL...and what do we get?
Also they was nothing about listening to the fans...and a hint that novels will be cannon because they are being written by the designers themselves.
The only thing Eberron fans have going is the Realms is going first...it their is enough negative feedback I can see them, maybe, backing off some Eberron Shattering Event that they have plan to explain( or better yet enforce) the changes to the races and magic.
True, I don't think the fans had a majority say in the matter, but at least it *seems* like they affected the outcome of their setting. I think their main advantage is Eberron's later 4E release. With an extra year, the designers probably have less set in stone and can use the Realms as "reconnaissance." The Realms designers made a very poor decision to reveal and set solid 4E changes this early in the production line. They're still writing the three core rulebooks. The finer details of the next edition are still in flux. They couldn't drop some hints on the forums to see how people will take the news before setting anything in canon. So now they have the Spellplague, if the design team suddenly had a great idea in the next few months, they still have to go with the Spellplague.
Personaly if they say we goof with the Spell Plague I would respect them more then sticking with a bad idea. I would perfer a retcon and a novel breaking from being cannon( which is just a good habit for them to get into anyway) then to stick with the Spell Plague. Of course I think the problem is that they believe this will make the Realms better so it is like talking to a stone wall.
This is the same reason category of things they can't do, such as give sales figures (I'm guessing for legal reasons on this one) or why they can't say the message boards have any significant impact on their decisions (to do so would severely bias the reactions).
It's amongst the things designers can't do.
I don't get why not though. I mean deaigner always(...well used to i guess now we know why they stopped errating the books...they weren't interesting in fixing things) put out errata for mechanics...why not lore? Also when I am working I always admitt to a mistake and fix it...it is the way to do things preffesionaly. Why are designers any different?
those bleeping bleepity bleeps. How dare they listen to one set of fans but not the others.
I thought a while ago some one posted a message by one of the realms writers that said a similar thing about changes to the realms. (The part about Ed's contribution of several thousand words or so was in that same message). The difference seems to be that they have already done too much work on the 4th edition realms to recall many of the changes. Eberron is appearing a year later and is probably still far more of a sketch of which they can change almost anything.
Anyway, in the message they said they were listening to the concerns of the realms fans, and were adjusting things as much as was still possible.
So they are listening to both sets of fans. The problem is -as some one else noted- they started too early on the 4th edition realms.
Personaly if they say we goof with the Spell Plague I would respect them more then sticking with a bad idea. I would perfer a retcon and a novel breaking from being cannon( which is just a good habit for them to get into anyway) then to stick with the Spell Plague. Of course I think the problem is that they believe this will make the Realms better so it is like talking to a stone wall.
That would be a better way to do it. Like they did for GH, where fans where happier with the "it has always been this way" rather than killing half the planet on every edition.
I've just read RA Salvatore's sample chapter from the novel "The Orc King".
I had already read here and there that one of his novels was meant to be set in the “new” Realms, but I didn't figure that he was going to set this novel 100 years ahead in time.
This new novel's premises are hugely ridiculous.
And what about the cliffhanger of the Hunter's Blades Trilogy? He left a very unsolved situation, unsolved bonds between characters and so on.
It's like RAS said: "They are in a very tight spot, how will they come out of this?..... But let's just Fast Forward ahead 100 years, they’re dead and a there’s completely different world!"
I won't be buying any more FR novels and, if things are going to stay this way, I'll never buy any other D&D products: I never meant to go this far, but this has to come to an end, once and for all, in one way or in the other.
You don't left me (or other fans who think like me) any other chance: so drastic are changes you force onto the whole D&D.
You are ruining everything, in a false hope of gaining more fans from other sources (read: MMORPG). Well, I may play the angry fan’s part and say that you are going to fail and serves you well, but I won't: I love D&D too much, and I love the Forgotten Realms even more. Don't ruin them. Please.
I can understand that the sheer numbers of MMORPG players is enough to cause a marketing expert’s head spinning with awesome expectations: they are millions. Maybe RPG players are millions too, but less millions.
But any marketing expert should also consider that there are reasons for such numbers.
Psychological studies have spotted the average RPG player's profile, which is: 1) IQ generally higher than average 2) good to high instruction rating 3) creative and imaginative mind 4) tendency to have close circles of friends.
The MMORPG player does not necessarily answer to these requirements, though: any RPG player may play a MMORPG easily, but the reverse is not true by any means.
MMORPG players do not: 1) require superior intelligence (all you have to do is memorizing attack combos, left click, and which button to push), 2) instruction rating isn’t relevant, because no mental effort is involved (while it is vital in traditional RPG), 3) MMORPG players do not need creative or imaginative mind (on the contrary MMORPG, as any video-game, tend to ruin creativity: visual aspects are provided by the graphics, the story is provided by programmers, character options are limited by program allowance: you'll never be able to use a spell in a way different from the originally intended way, nor will you be allowed to use the surrounding environment with the same, unlimited, creativity typical of any real RPG: there is no DM to judge any out-of-the-rule action, just a chip with pre-programmed orders). 4) MMORPG does not require any social skill, on the contrary it enhances tendencies toward loneliness, while RPG requires social skills (because other people are involved, while in a MMORPG solo games are frequent).
Such characteristics are not freely interchageable.
RPG requires social skills, imaginative and creative mind, patience: this is the reason because MMORPG players are not likely to shift in mass to traditional RPG. They don’t need to: their tastes point toward another direction.
And all of this is not a matter of rules: you can lower the complexity of the rules as much as you wish, you can make the game as fast as you can, but any MMORPG will stay faster, easier and graphically more appalling. Traditional RPG has nothing that can really appeal the average MMORPG player (not to speak about hard core ones!).
What will happen will be that D&D will loose a great part of it's traditional, accustomed fans, while just a very small part of MMORPG players will shift to D&D, but once they'll see that it cannot offer the same graphic appealing and ease/speed of use of a MMORPG they'll go back to MMORPG.
This path will lead you of WotC to find out that few new players will be added to the hobby and that many more will have departed.
You say you won't think back to this whole 4E and more importantly that you won't think back of the Forgotten Realms changes. Well, you'd better re-think such statements, because if you stick to it you'll loose a great part your fans in a few months.
I'm a relatively short term player, since I started buy D&D products in 2001 (it should be noted that, by now, I own 55 handbooks between the 3.0 and 3.5 edition, so I gave my deal of bucks to the hobby). But when long term players, such as people who collect D&D material since the 80's (or even the 70'), say that they'll leave the game because of the 4E changes, such a thing should give to think: "What have we done to convince such enduring customers to leave the game?" This is the question you WotC staff should ask yourselves and think very much and carefully about the answer, because you products' future is at stake.
Not only: Ed Greenwood himself, though not openly, seems disappointed and said he stays in just to keep the changes under control. When one says “I’ve decided to stay because...” it means that he has thought about leaving (and we are speaking about the creator of the Realms). This is very serious matter. Very, very, very serious indeed. What kind of trust can we put we fans into the new Realms if even the creator of the setting seems so much disappointed with it?
I hope you of WotC see the error before it becomes undoable: you are still in time. D&D can have a 4th edition and it should be the chance for correcting 3.x flaws. And also changes could be made to Forgotten Realms, which are not static, but such changes should be: a) minor ones or just potentially major (such as it was the return of Bane with the 3.0 FRCS or the return of the floating city of Shade), and b) original ones (please, dead Mystra: how many times did this already happen? It’s getting ridiculous). There is still a whole lot of things to be said about Forgotten Realms (and if you had done detail-deep handbooks, rather than just PrC/New Feats containers you'd have still more) without thinking about drastic changes.
What you did wrong with 3.x was just saying "This is the Underdark, there is this city, and this city, and this city, and this city; you can gain this PrC, this PrC and this PrC; you can buy this feat and this feat and this feat". What happened with the detailed info about races, customs, trade, monsters (and I mean much more monsters with detailed info, not just the bunch of game stats that is given in most of 3.x FR accessories).
There was nothing of the old AD&D addition in flavor, details, maps, location descriptions, optional rules and, overall, deepness of information. These are the kind of things you should aim to put in 4E Realms if you really want both to keep old fans and to gain new ones: the Realms are appealing as they are. It’d require just a little more effort to give them an additional push, so that new fans join old ones, without trying to challenge MMORPG on their own territory (a challenge that, if taken, RPG cannot win, not against MMORPG’s conditions).
There is nothing wrong with current Forgotten Realms deities: there’s no need to kill them in mass. What’s wrong it’s maybe that players are forced to choose one, but it’s a minor flaw (and easily correctable).
I refuse to think that you don't see the huge, unnecessary risk of this: 4E already requires that entirely new campaigns are started. And we (at least I) could endure it, if the game stayed funny enough. But this is not enough for you, apparently: the entire Forgotten Realms Setting is going to be so drastically changed that anything (anything) the players did in the past games will be worthless, ignored and destroyed. We are speaking of ruining years of games: it is not the kind of things that players take with just a shrug. There are thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands players, that will stick to 3.x material rather than spend money and time in a completely different game system that does not allow character conversion (as you say) and, worse still, a completely changed Campaign Setting, in which they’d be forced whether they want or not. This is not the way of gaining new customers, this is the way to loose them.
There is still time to step back: nearly one year of time. It is not much speaking in terms of publications, but it can be enough if you put some serious hard work in it (after all it is your job).
RAS has already written at least one novel about these changes, I know, but that's no unsolvable problem: just make it non-canon. Sales won't be good, but at least you'll not be going to loose fans permanently (and after all even characters from the soap opera "Dallas" made bad dreams about dead relatives).
You of WotC may ask what kind of right I have to say such things. And you’d be right in asking so. I could say that I have the right of the paying customer, but I won't. I'll say that I have the right of the fan (and a loyal one's). The right of the gamer who spent so many hours of his life playing D&D, enjoying the FRCS and plotting devious schemes as DM for the fun of other players. I think it's a good deal of things that give me the right of telling you that, though you may think you're doing the right thing with FRCS, you are not.
Please, don't ruin D&D and don't, for God's sake, ruin the Realms as you are doing. Think it better. D&D is still a game so full of potential and so are the Realms as a Setting: there is no need of major changes.
Thank you
White _Wizard
PS if there is any way to send this directly to WotC, I'd like to know. Thank you.
Sign every realms fan on these boards when you send the letter, the voice of many is stronger than the voice of one.
Yeah. I second that plan.
Richard Baker Must Be Stopped.
-That really is your mantra lately.
They liken it to the Peanuts comic strip where Charlie Brown never gets any older than a grade school kid.
I daresay that I don't slightly agree with them, but since our beloved grognards equate timeline progression with potentially catastrophic metaplots (sorry, guys
) it's not surprising that the devs decided to err on the side of caution and not change anything.I don't really follow Ebberon at all, so I was surprised to learn from that blog that the setting is static and the novels are not canon.
Yep, the novels are handled as if you're reading a narrative about someone else's campaign. I personally would like to see some of the novel iconic characters statted out, but doing so always comes with the assumption of canon so the iconics are never fleshed out in game terms.
It was friggin awesome! No magic, no afterlife, every literally fighting to survive. Jester and Trokanis really had to work their asses off to get where they were. So I have to say it's not destroying the realms, more building a new set of realms. All good things must come to an end, and this gives a chance for new gods to emerge.
Actually I'm rather pleased that they did this, since it was my DM that came up with this idea almost 4 years ago.
It was friggin awesome! No magic, no afterlife, every literally fighting to survive. Jester and Trokanis really had to work their asses off to get where they were. So I have to say it's not destroying the realms, more building a new set of realms. All good things must come to an end, and this gives a chance for new gods to emerge.
That is so great....persaonaly I would hate a game like that but hey it is so awesome that you guys had fun...
But it is your personal opinion in this regard...though I'll point out the Realms always had room for new gods if you wanted to play at that power level. Now they are taking that coice out.
Actually I'm rather pleased that they did this, since it was my DM that came up with this idea almost 4 years ago.
It was friggin awesome! No magic, no afterlife, every literally fighting to survive. Jester and Trokanis really had to work their asses off to get where they were. So I have to say it's not destroying the realms, more building a new set of realms. All good things must come to an end, and this gives a chance for new gods to emerge.
What you are describing is the destruction of the Realms. Building from scratch would make it a new campaign setting. I agree, it would make an interesting alternate timeline to play in, but only if it was an alternate one. Anyways, they are not doing away with magic, they are paving the way for 4e magic. All of it is a gimmick to tailor the "new" Realms to 4e the way they tailored Eberron to 3.5e. Unless they handle it well, more people will leave the setting than new people they attract to it. Honestly, the people who are excited by this are the same people who would be excited if there were a "Force Plague" that killed all Jedi and destroyed the Force.
Honestly, the people who are excited by this are the same people who would be excited if there were a "Force Plague" that killed all Jedi and destroyed the Force.
-Stop before it's too late. They might be listening...
Now I just need to go purchase the last few remaining 3e Realms supplements I never got that we want to include and we'll be free of RSEs except for those that we create ourselves.
So... I'm sad in a way, yet relieved in another. ;)
-Stop before it's too late. They might be listening...
Already abandoned the current novel story arc for SW due to idiocy in design philosophy, further idiocy just means I abandon the rest of the setting but others here might not quite as annoyed as I am with recent SW novels.
Signs
Dear WotC staff,
I've just read RA Salvatore's sample chapter from the novel "The Orc King".
I had already read here and there that one of his novels was meant to be set in the “new” Realms, but I didn't figure that he was going to set this novel 100 years ahead in time.
The new novel is not set 100 years into the future. Only the prologue is. The rest of book takes place a few months after the last novel. I believe its 1371
Now I just need to go purchase the last few remaining 3e Realms supplements I never got that we want to include and we'll be free of RSEs except for those that we create ourselves.
So... I'm sad in a way, yet relieved in another. ;)
Indeed, the "freedom" that comes with divorcing your Realms from the official Realms means you no longer have to worry about those danged RSEs.
Ask most elderly people and they will tell you much has changed since their youth. The difference between them and us is that they had a lifetime to experience the changes of Earth, with the Realms we are getting a decade dictated to us and possibly upwards of a century. It's like you wake up sometime after August 2008 and you find yourself in a world where electronics don't work and most major nations ravaged by pestilence and war, mad men and chaos.
And yes, pre-20th century Earth and post-20th century Earth are vastly different.
Besides, the FR is a fantasy world, that many people enjoy for escapism purposes. There's no reason why the FR must mimic Earth in terms of how much it changes, or why the timeline should have to move so quickly.
It's not like it's developed in exactly the same way!
Already abandoned the current novel story arc for SW due to idiocy in design philosophy, further idiocy just means I abandon the rest of the setting but others here might not quite as annoyed as I am with recent SW novels.
-Pish posh, MaskedOne. Asides for the obvious political connotations, the current Star Wars storyarc is, perhaps, the best one since Grand Admiral Thrawn.
Actually I'm rather pleased that they did this, since it was my DM that came up with this idea almost 4 years ago.
It was friggin awesome! No magic, no afterlife, every literally fighting to survive. Jester and Trokanis really had to work their asses off to get where they were. So I have to say it's not destroying the realms, more building a new set of realms. All good things must come to an end, and this gives a chance for new gods to emerge.
But I think that one thing is if a group of players plays a campaign with an alternate story arc (which may be fun, but in substance does not change anything for every other players). completely different is if such changes are forced onto the entire community of players without even considering asking them previously what they think about (and that should be important since it is them who buy -or don't- the product in the end).
-Stop before it's too late. They might be listening...
OT:
Sadly too true, even if Kevin J Anderson and Vector Prime did already a good deal of ruining EU.
The new novel is not set 100 years into the future. Only the prologue is. The rest of book takes place a few months after the last novel. I believe its 1371
Ok, then it's what, like making a spoiler in the prologue?
Lately RA Salvatore Novels had very few of a structure (
Show
the third book of the Hunbter's Blades was just a bit more than a sequence of events that led to nothing solved
...and now my trust in him is shaken.
RAS is definately past his prime, now. Like comedians, authors tend to run out of fresh material as they get older, and it all begins to sound the same.
completely different is if such changes are forced onto the entire community of players
I just have to comment on this.
What? Forced? Who's forcing anyone to play something in a certain way? I don't understand this - it's YOUR game, no one's there to tell you how to play it. This isn't a video game where you play pretty much as dictated by the game's designers. A roleplaying game is a game where everything is up to the individual group.
I just have to comment on this.
What? Forced? Who's forcing anyone to play something in a certain way? I don't understand this - it's YOUR game, no one's there to tell you how to play it. This isn't a video game where you play pretty much as dictated by the game's designers. A roleplaying game is a game where everything is up to the individual group.
It's forced in the way that they aren't giving us the chance of a 4ed realms like we already have, It isn't problematic for DMs to make those kind of changes to our versions of the realms. The problem resides with WotC making them for us, and those realms fans who don't like the changes will not have sourcebooks that bring useful lore if we wanted to continue the realms in 4ed without lore changes.
I just have to comment on this.
What? Forced? Who's forcing anyone to play something in a certain way? I don't understand this - it's YOUR game, no one's there to tell you how to play it. This isn't a video game where you play pretty much as dictated by the game's designers. A roleplaying game is a game where everything is up to the individual group.
The problem I see, is that when I play FR, I want to play FR. If I want to create an adventure with lore supplied by myself, I might just as well create my own world for that purpose.
I play FR because it has such a rich history, that I don't have to create anything. I just have to pick up supplement x and use the information it provides to create a deep and interesting adventure. I don't have to invent anything.
With the changes now taking place, if I want to play in the world with canon lore, I'm more or less forced to go with the 4e changes, as the "real" FR timeline ends in 1385DR.
I have my plans on stepping around Mystra's death, but if I do, I would abandon the canon realms, and have created my own facet of the setting.
Did I present the problem in a way that others than I understand it?
Did I present the problem in a way that others than I understand it?
Well, and then there are those of us who, while we play and DM in the Realms, have been reading the novels for a long time and are afraid of what these implications have on the novel line.
Well, and then there are those of us who, while we play and DM in the Realms, have been reading the novels for a long time and are afraid of what these implications have on the novel line.
Unless they choose to continu to write books in different eras, you say goodbye to almost all of the novel characters not named Drizzt, Elminster, or possibly Elaith. 100 yrs is a loooonnngggg time.
I just have to comment on this.
What? Forced? Who's forcing anyone to play something in a certain way? I don't understand this - it's YOUR game, no one's there to tell you how to play it. This isn't a video game where you play pretty much as dictated by the game's designers. A roleplaying game is a game where everything is up to the individual group.
It is forced because there won't be any more material supporting Realms as they are now. Also it changes the Realms so much that it will become a completely different setting: it will loose the Realms characteristics and it will be another thing. It is forcing players to follow what they decided for the Realms without conditions: yes it easy for a group of players to stick onto what they did previously (in the current 3.x Realms), but then it would be completely pointless to buy the new edition: if I already have material to play my campaign and I know that no more material like this will be published, and I don't want to adhere to 4E changes (spellplague, etc) then I won't buy any 4E FR product.
If I'd buy any 4E product I'd be forced to play in the 4E Realms.
I simply see no reason to change the Realms and I deeply dislike the way they imposed changes, while for what concerns other settings (say Eberron) they listen to players (which is the right thing to do) and adjust their route according to them. I don't know why they couldn't do the same for the Realms, counting that is a setting with one of the largest numbers of followers: it should have been of primary importance to estabilish a contact with the fans, it's what these forums are all about from the point of view of a marketing expert.
I simply see no reason to change the Realms and I deeply dislike the way they imposed changes, while for what concerns other settings (say Eberron) they listen to players (which is the right thing to do) and adjust their route according to them. I don't know why they couldn't do the same for the Realms, counting that is a setting with one of the largest numbers of followers: it should have been of primary importance to estabilish a contact with the fans, it's what these forums are all about from the point of view of a marketing expert.
*with pronounced sarcasm* Fans!? What fans!? Oh, you mean those silly people that we want to buy the stuff we are writing...uh, listen to them? Now why would we want to go and do a darn fool thing like that?
;)
Rather then repeat myself entirely from another thread, I will just paste the pertinent section from the 'James Wyatt blog today' thread. I am referenceing the blog entry here -
Boiling it down -
Also, after reading that blog, I feel even more strongly that I am VERY right about what I've been suspecting. FR didn't need to be totally obliterated to work in the changes - posters here have come up with dozens of alternate scenarios that were pretty hardcore but didn't leave a desolate wasteland where the Realms used to be, and didn't need a century to do it in. Eberron isn't getting the 'century treatment', so obviously it is unneccessary unless there is an ulterior motive in there somewhere.
What's different about the two main settings that sets them apart thusly? The 'cannoness' of the novels!!! I've been saying all along the novels have been ruining the game world, and I was right. The biggest complaint from 'grognards' (;) ) around here has been the fact that all of the RSEs and major events are taking place one on top of the other. Read the following CAREFULLY -
Similarly, he's not the sole architect of the changes to the Forgotten Realms. Over two years ago, Rich, Bruce Cordell, and Phil Athans from our book department sat down together and hashed out the plan that’s beginning now to bear fruit. At GenCon 2005, the authors who are writing the novels that describe these changes (including Ed Greenwood) came to a top-secret meeting to discuss them. And in the end, it was a plan that was formulated and executed by our whole department, all the way up to Bill Slavicsek, and in consultation with the D&D Brand team.
The whole quote is important, but I emphasized that particular part. There was an obvious problem between the game and the novels - the authors simply ran out of room to write in. WE didn't need a century time-jump, the AUTHORS did. They are just using 4e rules as an excuse to make room for their more lucrative side business.
They only needed 10, 15 or even 20 years to explain away rules changes, but now they've given RAS and company a hundred year playground to write in. We are gatting handed this 'Tabula rasa' so they can flex their big writer muscles - it has very little to do with 4e.
And we can't even complain about authors deviating from 'canon' during this period, because there simply aren't any rules during it. Think about it - 3e ends in 1385 DR, and 4e begins sometime in the future... probably the far future. They can do whatever they like in that century and it won't matter at all IG.
I liked it better when the authors were JUST designers, because now there seems to be a definate conflict of interest going on.
If I'd buy any 4E product I'd be forced to play in the 4E Realms.
How so...? You buy the three 4e core books, then just play in the world of FR without using the new lore. You can have a game set in Faerûn with basically any rule set.
I play FR because it has such a rich history, that I don't have to create anything. I just have to pick up supplement x and use the information it provides to create a deep and interesting adventure. I don't have to invent anything.
With the changes now taking place, if I want to play in the world with canon lore, I'm more or less forced to go with the 4e changes, as the "real" FR timeline ends in 1385DR.
We've had material for the Realms for the past two decades (more?). If you really dislike the new stuff, why not use the large amount of lore you already have?
The latter part I understand, but why is this "canon" so important to you? Why the feeling to need to follow it so obediently? Think about the old FR fans who've continued playing their FR games even despite stuff like ToT or other changes brought with new editions. They seem to be doing just fine.
How so...? You buy the three 4e core books, then just play in the world of FR without using the new lore. You can have a game set in Faerûn with basically any rule set.
I agree with you we should be able too..so why are the desiners ripping the Realms apart to make it fit with 4th edition( seriously this one of the reason why there are changing the Realms)
We've had material for the Realms for the past two decades (more?). If you really dislike the new stuff, why not use the large amount of lore you already have?
The latter part I understand, but why is this "canon" so important to you? Why the feeling to need to follow it so obediently? Think about the old FR fans who've continued playing their FR games even despite stuff like ToT or other changes brought with new editions. They seem to be doing just fine.
True and we will continue and I think thrive...but it only nice to point out to WotC that their plans will meet with failure. In that it will not make them more money.
I haven't caught up on this thread, but I'd like to add further to what I originally stated:
Obviously, they want new gamers and us older gamers are getting axed. They say the Realms is intimidating to new guys...but who says the new guys HAVE to know all the information at once in order to get a game going? The point of the Realms is to explore such a big world a little bit at a time, and anyone, new or old, can accomplish that by building adventures based around recently read material or introducing that material slowly into their Realms games.
WotC is going about this all the wrong way and I think it's truly their way of destroying what made the Realms popular for 20+ years in order to attract the World of Warcraft crowd just to make, what they hope, is a big buck. It's no longer the Forgotten Realms, it's an entirely NEW campaign setting and I dare someone to argue otherwise.
The setting needs a new name change to represent this brand new, non-Forgotten Realms setting.
Please change the Forgotten Realms to:
The Sundered Realms
Why do YOU think that YOU need to adjust to 4th "Addition"?
I been playing mostly on the Computer via Neverwinter Nights and the Stuff is 3rd Addition I believe nut a lot of the Stories and Modules I play are Dated to 10 Years Before to 20 years? after the Time of Troubles with the Play Station 2 Game "Baulder's Gate:Dark Alliance 2" being the most recent thing I have played in the Forgotten Realms Setting
Book wise I am more of a Collector then a Reader and I mostly have 2nd Edition stuff with some 1st Edition Stuff including a few of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting Materials and Even the "3rd Edition one" that I traded a Birthday book for at borders.
Except for catching me up on the Time line of the Forgotten Realms I careless for the technical number crunching Babble as, like I said before, the computer tallies that for me, though I understand basic D&D dice rolling of 1st and 2nd edition the concept of BAB,DC,AC,MIC,MIE,MI,MICKEY,MY,MOE,MICKY,ME,Blah,Blah,Blah makes my head spin...this is suppost to be fun not Brain Surgery or a Geek calculus club...pffft (leave it to the computers and computer Gaming..."Is the Minotar dead yet"?)
I doubt they'll overhaul the infinity RPG gaming engine or it's RPG Development toolkit (Marketed as "Neverwinter Nights") anytime soon as it is pretty much abandoned for NWN2 and fancier Game Engines with their own module making tools so unless "Baulder's Gate 2" or something comes out I probably will never experience 4th Edition rules not would I be compelled to buy anything 4th addition that doesn't just catch me up on the Time line.
If I ever dared to play Paper and Pen D&D I have the most in 2nd Edition
resources so it would have to be a @nd edition game, preferable set 20 years before to 15 years after the Time of Troubles.
Tell mye I "HAVE TO" switch to 4th Eddition and accept the lost of the Classical Realms I Love and I'll Tell You "I don't HAVE TO do anything and my PCs can Dwell and Live in and Visit the 2nd Eddition Forgotten Realms over and over and over and as many times they want before the death or fall of the gods, the Time of Troubles or Even Further in the past via Time Traveling Spells and Interplanial jumping to adventure in the more Ripe and Fruitful times without the added complexities (or even trying to stop the Future events to create a Alternative Forgotten Realms Future Setting where 2nd eddition and 3rd eddition rule forever....lol)
As they often put in the first Chapter of any Book or supplement, what the "Oiifical Book" Says need not apply to your personal version of the Setting so YOU don't need to ever except 4th " Addition" ever and you can have Elminster running around in a tutu and dancing like a Balarina when he is talking to the PCs in YOUR FORGOTTEN REALMS setting if YOU want....lol
I think more than anything else, what is giving the "new" Realms a bad name is poor presentation of the changes to the Realms. Instead of presenting the new RSEs (death of Helm, death of Mystra, Spellplague) in novels where the players/readers get to see what is going on and feel involved, the WotC Realms design team decided to stick them at the end of the Grand History of the Realms as a "Sneak Peak" at the 4e Realms. I am sure that there was all sorts of mayhem and upset with the Time of Troubles, but via the novels (albeit, I did not think the first two were written all that well) the readers were able to experience the changes via the adventures of Midnight, Cyric, Kelvemor, and Andon. Likewise, with the Return of the Archwizards (all three written by the same author, who I like as an author for more than just Realms novels ;)). This time around, we have not been able to be a part of the RSEs, so we fell divorced from them and from the "new Realms." Please take note of this O Designers of the Realms.
Umm...if they put it into a novel I would just be as upset...there was a reason why I stopped reading the novels. It was mostly as a protest to the fact they are canon. I have never had the kind of interaction with the FR with a book then I do playing D&D in the Realms...and sorry the art of a book is so much limited to what a RPG is.(unfortuanly I think the design team has lost sight of this)
With all due respect I think putting RSEs in novels is as non-interactive for fans/players as putting them in sourcebooks.
Umm...if they put it into a novel I would just be as upset...there was a reason why I stopped reading the novels. It was mostly as a protest to the fact they are canon. I have never had the kind of interaction with the FR with a book then I do playing D&D in the Realms...and sorry the art of a book is so much limited to what a RPG is.(unfortuanly I think the design team has lost sight of this)
I see where you come from, and I understand your position. I would just like you to understand where I come from. I began in the Realms by reading the novels, and first and foremost it will be a literary world for me. Then I began collecting the 3.x roleplaying materials, because that was the next logical progression (as I see it) toward amassing all the Realms lore I possibly could. So, from my point of view, the best way for them to give us a clear picture as to what happened and why is to put it into a novel (or a few novels).
PS Yes, I do occasionally DM and RP in the Realms as well.
I see where you come from, and I understand your position. I would just like you to understand where I come from. I began in the Realms by reading the novels, and first and foremost it will be a literary world for me. Then I began collecting the 3.x roleplaying materials, because that was the next logical progression (as I see it) toward amassing all the Realms lore I possibly could. So, from my point of view, the best way for them to give us a clear picture as to what happened and why is to put it into a novel (or a few novels).
PS Yes, I do occasionally DM and RP in the Realms as well.
Actualy reading a couple of your earlier post I can see your point. But you shoud be happy with the changes they did them more for you then for me. And I am sure they will novelized the Death of Mystra at some point and all kinds of stuff. I wonder if they will atleast give her a noble death or just have her squeal like a stuck pig....I wouldn't put the last one by them considering how they hate her.
Anyway I got a question for considering that you look at the Realms as your veiwpoint is from a literary world POV. Do you really think they way they handled the Realms is even good as a literary world, I mean with all the contradictions and stuff? Then again you might have gotten into a little late to see the contradictions...
Anyway I got a question for considering that you look at the Realms as your veiwpoint is from a literary world POV. Do you really think they way they handled the Realms is even good as a literary world, I mean with all the contradictions and stuff? Then again you might have gotten into a little late to see the contradictions...
Which contradictions are you talking about specifically? I started by reading the Moonshae Trilogy, the Drizzt series, the Time of Troubles, some of the Realms of anthologies, Elminster: The Making of a Mage and a couple other here and there in HS in the late '90s (I was in the class of '99). Then I continued to read whichever novels I could get my hands on and played the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, and NWN VGs in college. However, I did not pick up the 3e FRCS until 5 years ago when I started roleplaying (my parents thought that roleplaying was evil, and then it took me awhile to find other people interested in roleplaying on a Christian campus in college...). I have followed some Realms authors closer than other. Originally, the WotC site stated the the only cannon authors were Greenwood, Salvatore, and Cunningham. Since then it seems that they have incorporated pretty much everything into the cannon of the GHotR. So, that gives you a mini bio of my Realms experience, though I didn't answer your question, it gives you an idea of where I am coming from so you can specify which contradictions you are asking my opinion on. As a final note, I thought yet another death of Mystra was a redundant RSE and that they could have been a bit more creative, but now that she is dead, I hope the do not try to create yet another incarnation of her.
Do you get the impression that they are almost spitefully destroying whatever little bit of the Realms still had that 'Ed' feel to it?
If this 'thing' ever does revert back to EG, would he even want this stinky mess?
When second edition came out, the TSR boys had had a spat with Gary Gygax and lo and behold second edition came out with all new rules that had no resemblance to what Gygax had created...plus his name was NOT on the covers anymore.
That is why this 4ED stuff has that same taste in the back of my throat...
I read ED's statement on just giving 4ED a chance...but to me, he just sounds tired, like a really bored therapist, who doesn't want to be there anymore...
Looks like they are tying up that lose end.
Also keep in mind, I have heard no plans to make 4.0 open source, like they did 3.5.
Looks like they are tying up that lose end.
Actually they are. Here's the forum.
Which contradictions are you talking about specifically? I started by reading the Moonshae Trilogy, the Drizzt series, the Time of Troubles, some of the Realms of anthologies, Elminster: The Making of a Mage and a couple other here and there in HS in the late '90s (I was in the class of '99). Then I continued to read whichever novels I could get my hands on and played the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, and NWN VGs in college. However, I did not pick up the 3e FRCS until 5 years ago when I started roleplaying (my parents thought that roleplaying was evil, and then it took me awhile to find other people interested in roleplaying on a Christian campus in college...). I have followed some Realms authors closer than other. Originally, the WotC site stated the the only cannon authors were Greenwood, Salvatore, and Cunningham. Since then it seems that they have incorporated pretty much everything into the cannon of the GHotR. So, that gives you a mini bio of my Realms experience, though I didn't answer your question, it gives you an idea of where I am coming from so you can specify which contradictions you are asking my opinion on. As a final note, I thought yet another death of Mystra was a redundant RSE and that they could have been a bit more creative, but now that she is dead, I hope the do not try to create yet another incarnation of her.
Do you have any of the souce books before 3rd edtion? Read those carefuly and think...
Personaly I would have like to see Cyric the one who died. I thought he was alot worst character and well deserved it more...
But I don't think you can see our side till you run or play in a RPG that is more the just a story. I don't mean to belittle you in anyway by that. And if you did feel belittled then I am sorry.
But here is a question would you still read the novels even if they weren't canon per the game setting? Sure they can canon in relation to themselves but not to the actualy RPG setting?
I think most can agree that no matter if you like novels or not, or whether you like the changes or not, putting the 4E preview changes into tiny footnote sized entries at the back of GHotR was a bad presentation move on WotC's part.
Yes, I think I can agree with that. Of course, I can't see myself swallowing these changes no matter what form they originally took.
Do you have any of the souce books before 3rd edtion? Read those carefuly and think...
Personaly I would have like to see Cyric the one who died. I thought he was alot worst character and well deserved it more...
But I don't think you can see our side till you run or play in a RPG that is more the just a story. I don't mean to belittle you in anyway by that. And if you did feel belittled then I am sorry.
But here is a question would you still read the novels even if they weren't canon per the game setting? Sure they can canon in relation to themselves but not to the actualy RPG setting?
No, sadly, I do not have any of the source books from pre-3e, except for the free ones in PDF and the Kara-Tur CS in PDF. But I find reading source books on the computer is difficult for me. Do you have any particularly good pre-3e source books you suggest? Unfortunately, I am not the best of DM's. (My screen name is a bit of a misnomer, my RP group takes turns DMing, and when I DM it is in the Realms. Unfortunately, I am good at starting a campaign but not finishing one. I crave to find a RP group that does long-term campaigns, but do not really know how to go about finding one locally.) I do not think that you are being belittling, but I just think that we came to the CS from different angles. I think that certain authors should be considered cannon, and others not as much, like it was before. Also, when DMing in the Realms, I never saw the large number of NPCs as a detriment, I just did not have my players make contact with most of them. I think that they could, if they wanted to, make a Realms that both the RPers and the readers could love together. I thought they had until I saw the "Sneak Peaks" that the slapped onto the end of the GHotR. Personally, I prefer source books that have mostly lore and little mechanics. I also disagree to them tailoring the Realms to 4e like they tailored Eberron to 3.5e. Eberron was a new CS, so that was pretty easy. The Realms however is a long-lived entity that shouldn't be tailored to the new rule set. The new rule set should be fit into the Realms (via retconning or whatever you wish). Well, those are my thoughts for now.
No, sadly, I do not have any of the source books from pre-3e, except for the free ones in PDF and the Kara-Tur CS in PDF. But I find reading source books on the computer is difficult for me. Do you have any particularly good pre-3e source books you suggest? Unfortunately, I am not the best of DM's. (My screen name is a bit of a misnomer, my RP group takes turns DMing, and when I DM it is in the Realms. Unfortunately, I am good at starting a campaign but not finishing one. I crave to find a RP group that does long-term campaigns, but do not really know how to go about finding one locally.) I do not think that you are being belittling, but I just think that we came to the CS from different angles. I think that certain authors should be considered cannon, and others not as much, like it was before. Also, when DMing in the Realms, I never saw the large number of NPCs as a detriment, I just did not have my players make contact with most of them. I think that they could, if they wanted to, make a Realms that both the RPers and the readers could love together. I thought they had until I saw the "Sneak Peaks" that the slapped onto the end of the GHotR. Personally, I prefer source books that have mostly lore and little mechanics. I also disagree to them tailoring the Realms to 4e like they tailored Eberron to 3.5e. Eberron was a new CS, so that was pretty easy. The Realms however is a long-lived entity that shouldn't be tailored to the new rule set. The new rule set should be fit into the Realms (via retconning or whatever you wish). Well, those are my thoughts for now.
Most of them are good...but start with the 1st Campaign box set if you can...but just get your hands on as many as you can afford and lay your hands on. I think after a while you'll see what I mean. They have been bleeding the Realms of what it was for a while now...before it was ignorable but this I can't follow anymore.
I am sorry to hear that you have trouble finding peole interesting in a long term game and wish we lived in NJ...I would loan you the before mentioned books and invite you to play in my game...or in the game I play in. But I'll say this to me the beauty of a campaign is that it doesn't have to end completely. Also you are new carrying a campaign as a DM is hard. ust give it practice.
Also it is not a bad thing for PCs to meet those high level NPCs gust give them the roles as mentors. Personaly with your lore knowledge you propably can do a fairly good job of RPing them.
And to your last point I think they could have done it too. But unfortunaly while it can work in a share world novels their attitude towards the Realms just doesn't allow it.
Lastly if you ever need tips on how to DM something just PM me. Who knows maybe I can learn a trick or two from you. I might be experience but only a fool thinks he knows everything.
I don't know the specifics, but they do have some kind of plans.
I think most can agree that no matter if you like novels or not, or whether you like the changes or not, putting the 4E preview changes into tiny footnote sized entries at the back of GHotR was a bad presentation move on WotC's part.
It will most likely go down in gaming history as one of the 'big blunders' IMHO.
If the stuff was fed to us slowy in novels - GOOD novels - we might have been able to swallow it. But to just be expected to digest it whole like that.
And supposedly... it's just the tip of the iceberg.
I actually have heard them say 4th edition will be open source like 3.5.
I don't know the specifics, but they do have some kind of plans.
Yeah though with their track record of 3.5 and now 4th I doubt many companies will follow along this time.
On the other hand. 4th Edition will be OGL.
Still, I am really beginning to think of this as "Bob, 4th Edition." With the end of the magic system comes the end of D+D, not just as we know it, but as it has ever been known.
It may be the greatest game in the entire world.
But it's not D+D.
It's kind of like how some of us have been saying, even if we maintain our 2e or 3e Realms, sooner or later, the 4E Realms will take up the forefront of Realms based gaming whether we like it or not. More and more new players will start off in the 4E Realms and we who have non-4E games will get left behind after a couple of years unless we have very stable game groups. It is the same with 4E rules, it will simply be what a lot of people, old and new will be playing, the other companies will most likely follow. The 3e system will be remain a niche market no doubt.
It think the OGL, even with 4E, is one of the few more or less sure fire things they have going. WotC probably carries enough clout with players that many third party companies will see switching to 4E as a good idea to tap into WotC's customers with their products.
It's kind of like how some of us have been saying, even if we maintain our 2e or 3e Realms, sooner or later, the 4E Realms will take up the forefront of Realms based gaming whether we like it or not. More and more new players will start off in the 4E Realms and we who have non-4E games will get left behind after a couple of years unless we have very stable game groups. It is the same with 4E rules, it will simply be what a lot of people, old and new will be playing, the other companies will most likely follow. The 3e system will be remain a niche market no doubt.
Not if 4th edition sales drop though the floor. I think those companies will be alot more careful.
D&D for WotC is all about the core rule books, especially the big three, they have to make it work. They have a year to market the thing. While there are many who dislike the new edition, there are a lot of people who seem to support it. I think it will do well enough. Third party companies are always careful of WotC's actions, so this will be no different.
Even if 4E doesn't do as well, the third party companies might do their own take using the 4E OGL. In the end, the closer to the baseline the small companies start at, the more seamlessly they can elbow some room in the 4E pie and WotC's consumer base (plus their own regular audience). WotC benefits by setting the trends and pretty much maintaining some level of industry dominance (reduce variability in rulesets then the more everyone uses yours, then theoretically the more need they have of your own publications).
The third party companies have an added advantage in that they can support both systems, either keep putting out 3e material until they feel there is no longer a market. WotC has to switch wholly to 4E in order for this to work. So I guess in the end it all comes down to marketing on WotC's part. The rules set will probably work, and even if it takes some time to get adopted. The D&DI component might have a harder time getting off the ground. Though I think it is the best move they can make short of recreating D&D in every detail into a giant customizable MMO, which NWN hasn't come close to doing despite everything its already done. It is probably the best way they can bring D&D to the internet while still having it remain an optional aspect. That shows flexibility. Even if the DI thing fails, they still have 4E core for pen and paper, then things just keep on going like they always have.
The setting transitions are another matter as the difference between FR's approach and Eberron's transition approach vastly reveals. That seems far more arbitrary than even an order from Hasbro saying there must be a 4E soon and consider using the internet more. I highly doubt Hasbro said "WotC guys you must do X with Forgotten Realms" unless X was just to keep the sub-franchise profitable.
if this is all true - I haven't the book available at this time - I am totally shocked. it's like a world breaks apart... I enjoyed the mass of gods, it could be even more in my opinion!
I don't know what they hope to succeed with this... I cannot see how it should make it "easier" for people to play with less gods. If you don't want to use a god, you don't use it and thats it! but you cannot reduce all what was created and put to storyboards, novels and campaigns for so long in a single moment.
If this is all true... I don't know what to say, I feel like I could cry.
We've been stockin' up around here.
I mean WE are the buying folk, aren't we?
As to this posting, no WotC member had a word in all this and it saddens me beyond words that this is the way its going to be.
If its going to be this way... I think the realms die for me with 3.5. Along with all the novels taking place there... for what reason should there be to continue reading?
I see none.
Is it utterly useless to write here in the very sanctum of WotC that we're against it? That they cannot let it happen?
I mean WE are the buying folk, aren't we?
As to this posting, no WotC member had a word in all this and it saddens me beyond words that this is the way its going to be.
If its going to be this way... I think the realms die for me with 3.5. Along with all the novels taking place there... for what reason should there be to continue reading?
I see none.
But there is reason to continue playing. I mean I think it is time for people to ignore WotC FR and make it their own...I believe that is what Ed said about the Realms.
My local gaming store has lowered the prices on his 1ST edition books...
I got a near mint DMG and an almost equal condition monster manual for dirt cheap!
All of my players now have access to the main books :D
I stopped in there the other day, after a year's abscence, and he now has at least TWENTY copies of every single 3e WotC book that is still being published.
I asked him why he was so well stocked, and he said he's being selling the 3e stuff like crazy - everyone is afraid they won't get books they've been putting off once 4e hits the shelves. Seems some DMs are now requiring their players to get their own books.
Why would folks do THAT, if they were planning on buying into 4e rules?
I hope the guys at WotC are watching these kinds of numbers, because a sudden huge spike in 3e sales would mean much less enthusiasm toward future 4e purchases then they are hoping for.
I said to the guy at the store "I guess you heard about 4th edition?"
His answer - "You mean Wizard's latest money-grab?"
This from a vendor who will be selling these products.
Not good... not good AT ALL.
Hmm, I guess game store owners are gamers with their own view on things too. They're gamers first, business people second anyway, cause honestly, if they were business people first, would they own and operate a game store? I guess WotC has its work cut out for it in pushing 4E.
Oh please.
Do gamers really have this short a memory? I swear, I've heard the complaints about price gouging since Second Edition when they substituted a Dollar Sign for the S in TSR.
And you know what? Everyone bought 3rd edition.
But now they do.
Most people don't seem to understand what the effects of this whole affair will be. In short:
1) The chosen will most likely be gone. And therefore increase the opposing forces, turning faerûn into a quite darker place as it was before.
2) The realms won't be a high magic setting anymore. This is the worst development in this whole affair.
3) With all the gods lower in rank than 'Greater Deity' gone, there will be a huge bunch of novel series broken. For example the Erevis Cale books, he's the chosen of Mask. As far as I can remember he isn't a "Greater Deity".
Countless story writers will be messed up, since they used minor gods in their stories. Personally I am writing since 2 years on a series of stories about a minor godhood, now I can throw it all away. The work of 2 years is ruined, I can simply delete all of it.
Most people don't seem to understand what the effects of this whole affair will be. In short:
1) The chosen will most likely be gone. And therefore increase the opposing forces, turning faerûn into a quite darker place as it was before.
The Chosen are hardly the only high level good/neutral characters around.
2) The realms won't be a high magic setting anymore. This is the worst development in this whole affair.
This seems to contradict the point above. If there's less high magic then the high level evil characters shouldn't be around, if they are around then presumably the high magic level is being maintained.
3) With all the gods lower in rank than 'Greater Deity' gone, there will be a huge bunch of novel series broken. For example the Erevis Cale books, he's the chosen of Mask. As far as I can remember he isn't a "Greater Deity".
Countless story writers will be messed up, since they used minor gods in their stories. Personally I am writing since 2 years on a series of stories about a minor godhood, now I can throw it all away. The work of 2 years is ruined, I can simply delete all of it.
All that's been said on this subject is that only the greater deities will be capable of maintaining their divine realms. Presumably lesser deities who are allied to greater ones will have a home in these.
As for Mask, he's the god of thieves. Do you really think he's going to be unable to sneak into some other deities realm for shelter?
And Everis Cale would no doubt get another series from it if Mask DID die.
The Chosen are hardly the only high level good/neutral characters around.
Well you've got a point, but I read much (If not all) the novels about what the chosen hold in check with their doings... and if they're gone or at least not as powerful as before... I am unsure what that will bring.
This seems to contradict the point above. If there's less high magic then the high level evil characters shouldn't be around, if they are around then presumably the high magic level is being maintained.
No It doesn't, the so called "spell plague" definitly won't bring benefits for spellcasters as the name suggests. And if Mystra is killed, well... She's the one that managed it. I have a bad feeling regarding spellcasting in 4e... I guess of things like "wild magic"... or "failed spellcasting attempt" and such things... things to make wizards less powerful. And that of course will have consequences. I am not seeing forward to a permanent-ToT-magic-environment.
All that's been said on this subject is that only the greater deities will be capable of maintaining their divine realms. Presumably lesser deities who are allied to greater ones will have a home in these.
As for Mask, he's the god of thieves. Do you really think he's going to be unable to sneak into some other deities realm for shelter?
Well that thought is quite comforting and I must admit that I maybe was a little too much in panic when I thought of that ;)
But still... there will be a lot of gods left out in 4E, one way or another.
Seriously, they're just going to remove all gods that aren't "name recognition"
But why? I think its more a feature than a fault to have gods that are more obscure than others. For novel writers its a great deal to have something in the paintbook to fill out.
And Everis Cale would no doubt get another series from it if Mask DID die.
Another comforting thought... and you've got point ;)
But why? I think its more a feature than a fault to have gods that are more obscure than others. For novel writers its a great deal to have something in the paintbook to fill out.
Probably, I think it's mostly a case of user friendliness. Chaunteau is THE world, so it's always strange to have different goddesses than her worshipped in lands like Kara-Tur. Ditto most of the other Realms-specific deities.
It would suck if Finder Wyvernspur was killed but we've got him as a God of Bards, Oghma, and Milil. I could do without Milil and his role being absorbed by Finder wouldn't change much.
I don't think as many Gods will disappear as people think will happen. At this point, this is what we know...
Confirmed Survivors
Talos
Tempus
Lathander
Chauntaeu
Shar
Sune
Tyr
Cyric
Oghma
Bane
Elistraea (only because she just got her own series and is probably a Greater Goddess now too)
Lolth
Kelemvor
Ilmatar
Silvanus
Moradin
The Seldarine
Incapitated
Azuth
Velsharoon
Confirmed Dead
Mystra
Savras
Kiranshlee
Helm
The Dwarf Pantheon - 1
The Evil Dwarf Pantheon
Unlikely to be Dead Because They live in someone's realm
Siamorphe (of all the gods to survive...I assume she's going to pick up some of Helm's Portfolios to loosen the Gender Gap amongst LG deities---we're probably getting an Athena figure)
Tymora (she just married after all)
Llirra
Deneir (actually, I think he's probably toast because Spirit Soaring is implied to be Gone and his role of God of Knowledge is something Oghma can handle)
Gond
Loviatar
Auril
Talona
Jergal
Malar
Selune
Miekkli (Silvanus' realm + Drizzt association)
Umberlee
Red Knight
Garagos
I guess would survive because they're recognizable
Mask
Bahamut (was just brought back)
Tiamat (ditto)
In all likelihood, we're going to be seeing a lot of "Mini-Pantheons" being made up around singular greater gods in order to make the Realms easier to understand. The Great Tree, I wouldn't be surprised, is probably going to become very similar to the Great Wheel 4E.
Ironic, eh? They switched it and are probably switching it back again. The House of the Triad will be the new Mount Celestia, Bane's Realm will be Baator, The Supreme Throne will be the New Abyss, and so on.
Probably, I think it's mostly a case of user friendliness. Chaunteau is THE world, so it's always strange to have different goddesses than her worshipped in lands like Kara-Tur. Ditto most of the other Realms-specific deities.
Yeah but thats what makes a setting special. If you have just the same deities, the same stuff in all kinds its not something special, its the same.
It would suck if Finder Wyvernspur was killed but we've got him as a God of Bards, Oghma, and Milil. I could do without Milil and his role being absorbed by Finder wouldn't change much.
I thought first about him too and it would suck the hell bad.
I don't think as many Gods will disappear as people think will happen. At this point, this is what we know...
From the list you wrote down I still think it's too much. And its ridiculous to simply kill off all evil dwarven deities.
Same story with the Dark Seldarine, I really hope they come to senses and let some of them be revived, in Storm of the Dead there are hints that Vhaeraun isn't really dead btw. that he isn't at all the looser of the match. I think it would really suck that drow males have no place without matrichal hierachy. Maybe Ghaunadar, if he is even suriving it all...
By the way you can add Cyric to the list of Incapitated deities. At least he is as Incapitated as they are. If not even worse.
In all likelihood, we're going to be seeing a lot of "Mini-Pantheons" being made up around singular greater gods in order to make the Realms easier to understand. The Great Tree, I wouldn't be surprised, is probably going to become very similar to the Great Wheel 4E.
I don't see what there should be to be understood easier.
Ironic, eh? They switched it and are probably switching it back again. The House of the Triad will be the new Mount Celestia, Bane's Realm will be Baator, The Supreme Throne will be the New Abyss, and so on.
This sucks the hell bad.
By the way you can add Cyric to the list of Incapitated deities. At least he is as Incapitated as they are. If not even worse.
Cyric is stuck in his realm but he can still grant spells. It's just he cant' send his avatar down.
]So basically we get to see Faerun's pantheon conform to Core for the most part, with a couple of flavor deities tossed in just to mollify us... great.
I remind you, Ed Greenwood's world didn't have the Racial Pantheons to begin with. There weren't that many gods in FR to begin with. They just sort of accumulated across the time period.
It might seem redundant from our 3rd person perspective, but somehow I doubt the average citizen of the Realms would agree with that assessment... with all the troubles that the Gods have been causing lately according to the novels and such, then I could see the world rapidly moving towards atheistic secularism simply to escape the chaos they keep bringing... either that or moving towards a very hostile period of crusade to wipe out the rest of the gods just to get some peace and quiet once it was all over...
I doubt it. The Gods bring genuine material benefits. It's like suggesting that because of some bad Doctors, that we give up medicine. The dislike of the gods and atheism would be fashionable....right up to the point that you realize you're going to die of Black Plague when Lathander Cleric is right beside you or damned for all eternity.
Cyric is stuck in his realm but he can still grant spells. It's just he cant' send his avatar down.
But thats not any different from Azuth & Velsharoon or am I wrong? It just says that they are "cast out on the astral plane" but it fails to describe if they are alive or not...?!
While Velsharoon and Azuth seem to be in a coma.
But one way or the other the gap of a god/godess in things magical sucks. Ok, elves and dwarves won't have much of a problem since there are Corellon and Moradin. But what about the humans?
Halruaa will be chaos for example. The church of Mystra and Azuth are the only ones that operate there officially.
I remind you, Ed Greenwood's world didn't have the Racial Pantheons to begin with. There weren't that many gods in FR to begin with. They just sort of accumulated across the time period.
-It doesn't matter what could have been, or what once was. The deities are here, and established.
Halruaa will be chaos for example. The church of Mystra and Azuth are the only ones that operate there officially.
Azuth will no doubt still continue to be worshipped and will likely take over as the new God of Magic. Oghma might also fill in the gaps as dependent on the Realms needs. Cyric is still the god of Illusionists and Shar is still goddess of secrets. Sorcerers might worship Talos or Lathander depending on their inclination.
And now they're not.
-I'm not doubting that. I'm mentioning that what Ed Greenwood, or anybody else, originally envisioned does not matter.
Azuth will no doubt still continue to be worshipped and will likely take over as the new God of Magic.
-Azuth is 'incapacitated'.
-I'm not doubting that. I'm mentioning that what Ed Greenwood, or anybody else, originally envisioned does not matter.
Of course it matters. Cyrics now part of the realms but Bhaal's death gave us Baldur's Gate.
10 years from now, this will be part of the Realms.
-Azuth is 'incapacitated'.
It doesn't mean his religion doesn't go on.
It doesn't mean his religion doesn't go on.
Very unlikely to happen, if not, the Spellplague would be less threatening.
Of course it matters. Cyrics now part of the realms but Bhaal's death gave us Baldur's Gate.
10 years from now, this will be part of the Realms.
-I'm not exactly sure what you're alluding to.
It doesn't mean his religion doesn't go on.
-Then why would Mystra be replaced? She, too, is going to be incapacitated.
-I'm not exactly sure what you're alluding to.
I'm saying death is often a beginning.
-Then why would Mystra be replaced? She, too, is going to be incapacitated.
Big difference. Azuth is incapitated. Mystra is dead.
Very unlikely to happen, if not, the Spellplague would be less threatening.
Dude, it's a saving throw vs. Insanity. Devastating but there will still be Wizards left over and it's the REALMS, 10% of all Faerun's wizards outnumbers the entirety of those that exist on Krynn.
-It doesn't matter what could have been, or what once was. The deities are here, and established.
Thats the point of the whole affair! Thank you!
Big difference. Azuth is incapitated. Mystra is dead.
Guys where do you get the "incapitated" from? As far as I know there is just a hint that they went to the astral plane. But nothing about their state at all.
Dude, it's a saving throw vs. Insanity. Devastating but there will still be Wizards left over and it's the REALMS, 10% of all Faerun's wizards outnumbers the entirety of those that exist on Krynn.
If it was a saving throw vs insanity then most Arcane spellcasters would be OK (except if they roll a 1 on the die :rofl
, since they tend to have insane Will saves. Only low lvl ones would be screwed and they aren't as dangerous as high level ones.If it was a saving throw vs insanity then most Arcane spellcasters would be OK (except if they roll a 1 on the die :rofl
Depends what the DC of the save is.
I'd actually be somewhat inclined to make it harder for higher level characters who have a stronger connection to the broken Weave.They want to corrupt Faerûn into a less magical setting.
It doesn't matter really. Fact is that Faerûn is a fair number of spellcasters smaller. And for me this outcome can only have one reason:
They want to corrupt Faerûn into a less magical setting.
Which is basically making Faerûn not Faerûn. Low-magic settings are for dumb players that don't like to play spellcasters because they can't understand the rules and feel like meatshields for them with their fighters.
Low-magic settings feel stale, and stone age-like. There aren't wonders to explore, ancient artifacts of incredible power to find and epic battles where reality itself can change in seconds.
Low-magic settings feel stale, and stone age-like. There aren't wonders to explore, ancient artifacts of incredible power to find and epic battles where reality itself can change in seconds.
Faerun can be intensely magical with less wizards. Eberron has more magic users per capita than anywhere but Haruula. That doesn't mean Eberron is more magical.
It doesn't matter really. Fact is that Faerûn is a fair number of spellcasters smaller. And for me this outcome can only have one reason:
They want to corrupt Faerûn into a less magical setting.
No, they want to get rid of as many spellcasters as possible in order to introduce the brand-new magic system in 4e.
The old classes are simply going to 'disappear', so people like Elminster will suddenly be level 1 (with lots of HP) Experts the day the Weave collapses.
They need to explain why we have all these new magical 'traditions' for casters, and even fighters will have different styles, etc. New things do not spontaneously manifest - the old first must have a problem for new things to take root.
Killing off most of the 'old world' will invite people to develop these new forms of fighting and spellcasting.
I'm not saying I like it, but it is the only way to give us an IG explanation of why everything is different. I'm fairly certain I will not use the Spellplague when I switch - my players and I do not need the IG explanation. I'm perfectly happy with ret-conning it to "it was always that way".
The new magic classes wouldn't make a whole lot of sense without it.
I'm saying death is often a beginning.
-I was still harping on the fact that what Ed Greenwood had in his original campaign, what Rich Baker dreamed up last week, what R.A. Salvatore thought of when he was drunk, and so on, don't mean anything in the actual canon storyline. The ideas still exist, so theoretically, they can become part of future canon, but, for right now, those ideas 'count' as much as my own. What's done is done.
Big difference. Azuth is incapitated. Mystra is dead.
-Assuming that Azuth will be incapable of granting spells to his followers, which I believe will be the case, if he is the words are nearly synnonymous. Mystra's followers will not be recieving spells. Azuth's followers will not be recieving spells. As neither group is recieving any benefits (one church having spells, the other not), it makes sense to me that the status quo is maintained, at least initially.
-Assuming that Azuth will be incapable of granting spells to his followers, which I believe will be the case, if he is the words are nearly synnonymous. Mystra's followers will not be recieving spells. Azuth's followers will not be recieving spells. As neither group is recieving any benefits (one church having spells, the other not), it makes sense to me that the status quo is maintained, at least initially.
I believe he will be able to grant spells to his followers and his Church will function in his incapitation.
I believe he will be able to grant spells to his followers and his Church will function in his incapitation.
-Ah, here lies the difference in our opinions. The way AGHotR describes what happens to Azuth leads me to believe that he won't be able to grant his followers spells- at least, not initially, until he figures out what the hell he and Velsharoon are going to do.
But since they did NOT outright kill him, as they did Sevras, one can assume he WILL make a comeback in 4e.
-Sending him to the Astral could be interpreted in more than one way. After all, where do dead deities go?
(I don't believe that, but still...)
After all, if there's one thing we've learned recently, WotC is NOT shy about upsetting us.
I think maybe Azuth and Velsharoon went to the Astral to find Sevras... after all, he SHOULD have seen it coming and prepared for it.
Why differentiate him and Velsharoon from Sevras, then? If WotC wanted them ALL dead, they would have just come out and said it.
After all, if there's one thing we've learned recently, WotC is NOT shy about upsetting us.
I think maybe Azuth and Velsharoon went to the Astral to find Sevras... after all, he SHOULD have seen it coming and prepared for it.
-Well, I said I didn't believe it, but it could be...
YAY!! More Lanten's. WHOO!!!
This isn't speculation. They listed the Greater Goddess who died and the Greater gods who lived or were imprisoned.
Why differentiate him and Velsharoon from Sevras, then? If WotC wanted them ALL dead, they would have just come out and said it.
After all, if there's one thing we've learned recently, WotC is NOT shy about upsetting us.
Very true, there was no point to taking up the extra word count in differentiating Azuth and Velsharoon from Savras. And if they were going to kill all the gods of magic, getting rid of them in the first blow would have done the job quite well and not draw anymore fan outcry than it already has.
I think maybe Azuth and Velsharoon went to the Astral to find Sevras... after all, he SHOULD have seen it coming and prepared for it.
He had a dead-god switch!
"My fellow lesser deities of magic. If you are viewing the contents of this illusionary simulacrum it means I, and possibly our mistress of art, Mystra, is dead. The worst has come to pass. If you want to survive, you must do what I instruct."
You mean, aside from the Grand History of the Realms SAYING so?
This isn't speculation. They listed the Greater Goddess who died and the Greater gods who lived or were imprisoned.
We know that some deities died. But do we know who continues to live after the Spellplague?
It is speculation, because as I said in another thread, just because we DON'T hear about an event in the GHotR (ie. the death of a deity) doesn't mean it didn't happen. We won't know much of anything until the FRCG comes out.
So, while you can have a list of deities confirmed dead, you cannot have a list of deities confirmed alive (as of what date, anyway?).
"All the Greater Deities were able to keep their realms intact."
Maybe the designers could even reconsider the deicides they have yet to unleash on us, who knows, crazy things could happen.
It's a logical inferance though.
Not necessarily -
(6) The 4E FR setting will have a smaller pantheon. In general, there will be less overlap in the gods' portfolios. Consequently, some 3E deities have been 'demoted,' effectively becoming agents or emissaries of more powerful gods. A handful of deities have been killed off. There are also a few new deities to fill holes.
They also didn't mention any new gods, yet obviously we are getting some. Ergo, anything is possible and all the facts aren't in yet.
And what is FRCG?
Also remember that hordes also depend on magic using shamans who would also be without magic.
Humans have kept the hordes at bay with more than just magic. Discipline and the ability to use subterfuge. Hordes don't scout, they don't do anything but smash, and they've normally lost because of that.
Now what changes the Orcs go through will influence that, but humans have much more intelligence than their Orc neighbors and they procreate at close to the same rate. Besides dwarves, elves, and a dozen other races also hate horde creatures.
Now a system of overwhelming war and famine and disease I can see. Remember alot of people remain healthy because of healing magic. Without it I can see Toril going through a Bubonic Plague that kills 1/3rd of the population. Savage and civilized races each.
(If you look at history in our world the 15th century is when all that beings.) Of course if that comes with some interesting social change that our newer charecters can be apart of, I can see that being an itneresting time.
What I'm most curious about is how the hell the Realms are supposed to stay intact with a (perhaps relatively) sudden loss of arcane spellcasters, when those spellcasters are often the only thing standing between civilization and the hordes of monsters waiting for their chance to stomp that civilization under their heel... oh wait, that's likely to happen in the whole terrible birth of the new Realms thing... right, sure, that's the same old Realms we all know and love.
Hordes of monsters from WHERE?And its not like its just the North that has to worry about hordes incoming. That applies to pretty much every populated area out there that I can think of. Amn more than most really, if you'll recall the whole Sothsyllis (sp?) storyline.
And if there is a massive plague that wipes out the population, you can certainly bet I don't want anything to do with it. Unfortunately, I am intimately familiar with the effects of the Black Death and the other diseases that ravaged Europe during all of the major plague outbreaks, having read extensively on the subject for my own edification, and you'll excuse me if I don't have much interest in playing in such an incredibly depressing and bleak setting. Life can be depressing enough without introducing such horrid problems into my fantasy life as well... I don't see anything even remotely entertaining or fun about the idea of pandemic and its aftermath thankyouverymuch.
Yes ridding magic would weaken them, but I don't see hordes being succesful in areas with established nations. In areas under dispute (Like say the Border Kingdoms) I can see them overruning the civilized nations, but not places like Amn or Calisham. Though I do see Amn having major problems.
And it most likely won't come to that. Fantasy isn't fantasy unless it has some kind of magic. There has to be a return of magic in some form. What form it takes will be dependent. Especcially if Netheril is supposed to return. Netheril can't exist without some form of magic. Not the Shadovar kind of Netheril anyways.
As to Netheril, I've no idea how we're going to reconcile that one with what they seem to be heading towards with this whole spellplague thing... unless we're going to have Shar Triumphant and the Shadow Weave still being available for her pet minions... in which case I assure you I'm completely out of faith in the setting.
You also have to look at a besieging army. Stripping the land around a city only takes a few days. A besieging army (Which hordes rarely have the patience for and instead bang against the walls with their bodies) has the same problem as the besieged, disease and starvation. And very rarely does a besieging army actually have the back up graneries a city has.
And morale is important, but morale on long odds has shown again and again in history to be secondary to a single bit of morale; people defending their homes. If you force people to protect their homes, then they become the harshest and most hard fighting people on the planet. That morale will trump any loss of morale due to loss of defenses.
That's why if all the civilized lands are overrun by hordes, I am never touching 4.0 with a 50 foot pole. I am a historian, I've written historical papers and analyzed historical documents. I know tactics from the Ancient to the 1980's. (After that I just gave up) Believe me, in this area if they allow the hordes to just overrun everything, then they have totally lost all their marbles. And yes magic changes things, but they don't change the intrinsic points of the world. Quantity only takes you so far before quality destroys it.
Discipline also takes precedent. Alot of the human militaries are disciplined units. Such as the City Guard of Waterdeep. These diciplined armies would be best at defense. Well when a horde attacks guess what side you are on. Hordes rarely have siege weapons.
First you forgot the hobgoblin and other goblin forces are organized along military discipline... Second...when you have giants, or orgers, or any other large monsters you go seige eapons.
Also third the cities will be in mass hysteria as the magic using people will be going insane and causing destruction from within...and suddenly priests of the god of guardians( who would be called on greatly during a seige I would imagine...just died.
I think you are underestiminating what the horde can do...especialy if it is a mix of monsters. And those have existed before.
Orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc You are also forgetting that magic users are the leaders of the savage races. Shamans lead many of the savage races, and they will be going insane as well. To say that the savage races will be perfectly uneffected and only the civilized races will be effected is niave at best. Will it be hard? Yes, but hordes overruning everything? If that happens I quit. That's just plain it, I will quit because it will be so detatched from common sense and reality that it will be beyond fantasy. It'll go straight to stupidity.
Now we obviously will not agree on this, so lets just stop and agree to disagree.
And do try to keep in mind that the Ottoman's weaponry and tactics weren't necessarily suited to the terrain and climate they found themselves fighting in. The numbers simply made a bad situation worse. The outcomes of battles are rarely, if ever, a case of simple numbers, but many complex factors that build towards a whole, many of which are rarely obvious.
As to the orcs, well oddly I would say that it largely depended on what sort of horde we were talking about as to how effective it would or could be. If it was a spin-off horde dominated by bachelor males kicked out of their main tribes (I'm not bothering to explain that one, it should be obvious), then I would say the chances would be slim at best for actually succeeding at much of anything other than pillaging the land and wiping out small settlements. Were it an experienced tribe, such as Obould's for example, then I would say whatever city it was being attacked may just be in serious trouble without the spellcasters.
However, those bachelor hordes would probably be far more damaging in the long run, since those small settlements and holdings they wiped out would probably be the primary sources those cities that could hold out against a horde would depend on for food in the long term, so while they may not be able to take out the city in the short term, they could possibly doom, or at least significantly weaken it with a death of a thousand cuts, so to speak, by devastating its ability to gather resources. Add in a plague that would likely occur from all this, and you're looking at reduced manpower in general... anyway, if you're conversant in history, you should see where this is going. Destroy civilization outright, no, probably not, but set it back to a really bad place, almost certainly. Which seems to be where they're heading with this storyline.
Where do you get the whole spellcaster as leader in savage races bit? They might be influential for their power, but almost every savage culture I can think of is ruled by the strongest warrior around...
Back on track though, I'm curious what Lantan would do though. I mean in all honesty this would be a time for the gnomes to shine in some areas. Lantan does with technology what everyone else in Faerun does with magic. So they would be the least effected by the destruction of the Weave. Sure it would cause inconveniece as those technologies who use magic in them would stop working, but most of their stuff runs on pure overcomplicated mechanics.
Also I wonder what places that are not against technology, examples would be Waterdeep or Baldur's Gate. How would they react. WIth a good size of Gond worshipers, they might go technological (Sorry I love Steam Punk stuff)
So how people react would be interesting. And you bring a good point as to what kind of horde would be set. For the North most of those hordes (With a few exceptions) Are due to overpopulation and though they would smash against cities in the North (Like Waterdeep, sorry its what I know) the drought would cause problems for food and you'd have famine.
Also if Alchemy still works, then disease would be less dangerous than if it needed the Weave. I do not believe Alchemy needs the Weave as a whole because Alchemy has to take the place of healing magic in low magic worlds (Arms and Equipment) So Alchemy might still work, making divine magic's loss less severe. That's left to the writers.
Matriarchical savage races have a Shaman as their leader. The best example I can come up with are the Gray Orcs.
As to matriarchal savage races, I don't imagine there are a whole lot of tribes that would subscribe to that particular societal structure...
As to Alchemy being effective, it won't be as effective as divine magic for healing, and also consider you don't just walk into a lab and find an endless supply of components for it... if the settlement is cut off, so is the supply for alchemical goods. ;)
I mean cannons came before guns, and yet they mention smokepowder guns, but not cannons. And it's not because they don't like siege weapons. THey include ballistas and trebuchets and scorpions and such. Why not cannon?
Well it'll give them a better chance. Alchemy could allow them to have the expectancy we have today. Or well a better chance than our ancestors had in 1385.
"If there's twenty three million sentient beings in Faerun, not counting the Underdark or the Islands, then approximately one million of them died."
Basically, in my games, the PCs will be recovering from the aftermath but to repulse the hordes of monsters pouring out from cracks in the Underdark and so on....it's the end of the City State. Alot of the Sword Coast and other nations start banding together to become genuine countries as opposed to untamed spaces.
Also this begs the question of what will happen to the Elven cities, mainly Evermeet and Everska. I can see Evermeet collapsing under it's own weight. Strangely I don't see Evereska falling apart. It seems that Evereska has become an elven symbol for defiance against the odds. Elves have banded together to throw out the Phaerimms (Though lots of help came from Waterdeep) and to throw the Fey-ri and the demons they summoned. Elves banded together to defeat it. So I see alot of elves banding together and using Evereska as a base for solidifying the elves. I might be 100% wrong, but I feel that would be the best thought. Also it's Mythal is weaker and therefore less depended on by the elves of Evereska. Or so I gathered. Gotta read that one, reminds me to bug Prez about that.
As to Spain being superceded... well, a lot of that had to do with their earlier successes and the obsession with gold, which massively jacked their inflation and sent them into a downward economic spiral which they didn't recover from until fairly recently... kinda like what's going to happen with Amn and Maztica if its handled even remotely realistically.
As to the technology level of the late medieval and Rennaisance eras... think of it from a modern perspective and it was quaintly backwards at best. For the time it led to Europe dominating the world for several centuries... and not just with their militaries... a position they still hold in comparison to pretty much everyone but the US and perhaps Japan. So, yeah, I'm right there with you on that respect.
As to cannons being mentioned in D&D, they have been on at several instances, particularly where the Realms are concerned. Ribald aka Gond Pipes (twelve-barrel carriage mounted wheeled field guns essentially) and Thayvian Bombards (either smokepowder monster cannons in 2e, or telekinetic powered cannons in 3e)... which of course leads to logical extensions of their abilities to produce seige-quality cannons.
As to life expectancy, I seem to recall it being significantly better (80+) than ours for those who had regular access to clerical healing, and only slightly shorter (60-65+) for those who didn't. Not completely sure about it, as its been a while since I read it, and I can't even recall where (know it was 2e somewhere though), and I could be misremembering it to be honest, but that's what I recall off the top of my head.
Well life expectansy is going to change with the loss of clerical magic that's for damn sure. Also wonder what it will do to epic non-magic feats. Like Extend Life. That has no magic impliments to it, it's just a random feat, but it adds a crapload to your life. Ehh who knows.
Also I am looking for the Maztica book from 2.0. Do you know where I can find it cause I doubt that they will do a sourcebook for it now. Sigh, such annoyances.
As to where to get them, you might try looking at the WotC free older edition downloads section over on their main site... as far as I'm aware it has the bulk of the Maztica setting's stuff in PDF format.
Afterthought, Lands of Intrigue, which should be there as well, had some limited updating of the Maztica material, so might want to grab that too.
lol, I just thought of something. Wouldn't it be funny if the hordes of the North and South pushed Amn and Waterdeep and her allies out of their homes. And they moved to New Waterdeep and Maztica, therefore creating a great exodus like The Great Potato Famine caused? Then we'd get to cause native slaughter like Pizarro and Cortes. WHOO!! How un-PC would that be?
Thanks Candlekeep.
Hello, all! Hearken! Blueblade's recent post has elicited some very important words from Ed, so I'll sign off now and let the Creator of the Realms speak:
Not, it was not my idea.
However, before every scribe or Realms fan everywhere grabs that comment and shouts, “See! They’re ruining the Realms and Ed Greenwood hates what they’re doing!” I would ask everyone to remember that I walked this particular plank back in 1986, when I sold rights to the Realms to TSR, ceding artistic control of the setting.
From that day to this, except when I “get in first” to paint the picture of a person, place, or country in the Realms, I have been watching other people do things I might not have ever thought of, or agreed with, to the Realms, and exploring the consequences.
It’s what we all (“we” being everyone who works on the Realms, from artists who do line drawings for product interiors to Bob and Elaine as novelists to Eric and George as “lore lords”) DO: poke the Realms in various ways and see what happens. That’s what makes the world seem alive, the constant change.
Most humans hate most change. All of us can recall things (the house or neighbourhood or town where we grew up, perhaps) that have changed so much they’re “gone” for us; our remembered thing has been changed too much for us to accept it as the original. This could, yes, happen with the Realms, just as with every other thing. As I said before, we can’t tell yet (yes, that includes me, because I haven’t seen enough of the so-called “new Realms” yet). Yet riding this magnificent horse that gallops in different and often-surprising directions is what I do, and have done for four decades now, two of them in print with TSR and now Wizards.
I’m sticking with the horse for now, because I know it and love it and we’ve ridden far together. Bailing right now, at full gallop, would be painful, and I’d be left behind and never get to see what neat new places it will reach.
With that said, let me say how moved I am by the anger and upset various scribes have shown here in their postings. You care about the Realms so much. Thank you for that.
I understand your hurt. I have felt it too, over and over, down the last twenty years, and believe me I feel it now, as characters get whacked and I face the prospect, that I’ve been fending off with potions of longevity for as long as I could, of others dying of old age before I ever get to really tell their stories.
I see the risk Wizards is taking, and sure hope it pays off. Whatever happens, I intend to go on sharing the Realms with gamers and readers for as long as I last. I am hard at work on future Realms goodies now, and am acutely aware of the Border Kingdoms and the unpublished city of Teziir and other things too long neglected.
If you need to vent, if you want to talk, I’m here (well, not HERE, but reachable via the Lovely Lady Hooded). I’ve been talking with many of you already about what to do in your own campaigns, and would like to remind everyone that playing up to the Year of Blue Fire can take you ten REAL years (or even longer); my home Realms campaign is proof positive of that. So you can have the luxury of not changing anything right now, and watching the 4e Realms unfold in print, before amking any decision. Lore replies here and elsewhere can still provide guidance in the “Lost Years.”
Please remember that although Wizards of the Coast is a business, it is a company staffed by GAMERS. And fiction writers. They care deeply about the products they publish, and would work elsewhere (because there are many, many fields where creative people can get better paid than in gaming) if they didn’t. So, please, ease off on the Evil Empire talk and wait and see what they DO first.
I’ll still be here (I hope; certain editors have promised to murder me messily if I blow certain deadlines :} ) . I still care about the Realms; no matter what happens to it, I brought it into the world and want to be there and see what it does. I hope all of you will, too.
To borrow the words of The Hooded One:
Love to all,
Ed
P.S. Beezer, no, sorry, there isn’t a Bob short story in GRAND HISTORY. And I disagree with your reviews, but thanks for them anyway. :}
What does he mean by contact him through a Lady Hooded or something? I'd like to see how that went.
And as long as it makes sense I don't mind either way. And as long as they keep the diversity of the Realm. It's that diversity that sold Fearun to me, and if they get rid of that, then I have no appeal in it anymore. That's all I am asking.
And change is evil. It causes death and destruction. And hippies. It causes hippies. That's bad.
Now you sound like Eric Cartman.
It's the beat-niks that really get my goat.
I think you should do a poll. The question should be something about how do people feel about the changes that have made the "new" Realms. Possible answers should be something along the following:
- I hate the changes! What the hell were they thinking?
- I dislike the changes. The manner in which they were introduced is confusing and does not make any sense. I could probably live with them if the details were laid out in a manner that makes more sense.
- I like the changes, but have some reservations about what they entail.
- I love you changes! The designers can do no wrong.
I went and put this poll up on the Candelkeep forums. I know that it is filled with a large variety of Realms fans, and so I think we should be able to get a good feel for what the Realms community actual does feel about the proposed changes. Also, I did not vote myself since I am the one conducting the study. Please, create an account at Candlekeep and place your vote. I really want to know so we can give the designers some constructive feedback. I also would like it if each and everyone one of you (designers/writers/players/DMs/et cetera) told us why you love the Realms. I really want to provide as much constructive feedback to the designers so they get it right the first time with the 4e FRCG. I know that the 4e FRCG will be the maker or breaker of the "new" Realms, and since I love the Realms, I really want it to work. Since I realize that by buying the 4e FRCG I will be "casting my vote" for the "new" Realms, I no longer will just be buying it blindly like my original plan was though.
And I agree, hippies are the root of all evil in Reality, deserving no better than a few grams of lead in the noggin... beatniks are simply annoying and should be shunned at worst. :P
But as I understand it, the only gods that were defintely ereased from the Realms are:
- Gorm Gulthyn
- Haela Brightaxe
- Laduguer
- Deep Duerra
- Helm
- Mystra
- Savras
About Azuth and Velsharoon is no confirmation that they are dead. IF they were, they would have written it down in just that fashion.
Also, there is NO indicator that minor gods perished. Only that their REALMS have perished in the aftermath of Mystras Destruction.
As far as I can tell they don't want to eradicate all the minor gods out of the setting, but change the cosmology and the magic system.
But whats really a mystery to me is what they do with the de-facto Duergar Pantheon. I cannot believe and it doesn't sound even a minor bit logical to me that all the duergar would turn to the Moradin-Gang. The only option in the dwarven pantheon would be Abbathor as far as I can tell.
But what do they hope to accomplish by that? Any ideas?
Best Regards,
Ascaron
The duergar are heavily militaristic and strict in their ways, typical LE if you ask me. Maybe after all they begin worshipping devils... Another possibility is they choose other LE gods, like Bane for example. But I cannot see where this would lead to... dunno.
Duergar are going to be up for a pretty nasty religious change in the future. I assume there's probably a City of the Spider Queen style takeover with whoever G chooses as his champion.
But were I Bane, I'd just do what Shar did and start impersonating their slain gods.
To force the Duergar to probably worship other evil gods like Ghaundaur. I know I'm having all my Duergar start worshipping him now.
Perhaps the Gray dwarves just start worshipping some neutral dwarf gods.
What I'm most curious about is how the hell the Realms are supposed to stay intact with a (perhaps relatively) sudden loss of arcane spellcasters, when those spellcasters are often the only thing standing between civilization and the hordes of monsters waiting for their chance to stomp that civilization under their heel... oh wait, that's likely to happen in the whole terrible birth of the new Realms thing... right, sure, that's the same old Realms we all know and love.
Hordes of monsters have been wiping out communities with spellcasters in FR for years. Myth Drannor is one of the most famous. I am sure they had a few spellcasters there. ;)
Hordes of monsters rampaging is nothing new to the Realms, it is actually one of the constants of FR lore. People band together to build something, then it is torn down by something nasty or magically disastrous. The realms have never been stable.
But as I understand it, the only gods that were defintely ereased from the Realms are:
- Gorm Gulthyn
- Haela Brightaxe
- Laduguer
- Deep Duerra
- Helm
- Mystra
- Savras
This is by no means a complete list.
Show
It's missing both Vhaeraun and Kiaransalee, who have thus far been killed in the Lady Penitent series (though the latter, perhaps, has merely been driven away by no one remembering her name).
Heya,
This is by no means a complete list. [...]
I forgot about the drow deities for a reason: The book series where these things come out aren't completely done yet. So it COULD be that here will be a surprise at the end.
I figure it's a case of the Duergar are left without divine magic in an exceptionally hostile place and Ghaundaur basically steps up with the possible offer. It's sort of like the NE to CE Shift for Drow.
I agree that someone WILL fill out that gap, they cannot afford it to be left without divine magic. But the majority of the dwarven folk (exceptions like the derro do not count for me ;) ) is lawful and so I guess the duergar will be no exception from it, so I think it unlikely that they will shift their alignment.
But were I Bane, I'd just do what Shar did and start impersonating their slain gods.
THATs a really good idea, not thought about that tough!
Spine of the World and other areas in the North are ripe with hordes biding their time.
Bykov.
I forgot about the drow deities for a reason: The book series where these things come out aren't completely done yet. So it COULD be that here will be a surprise at the end.
-AGHotR doesn't mention any surprises, however.
Course the GHotR doesn't mention what occurs after the year 1385 right?
-Correct.
There will probably be a $hitload of novels set from 1375-1385 DR, with all sorts of crazy stuff happening. Until those novels are finished, they didn't want to include any spoilers in the GHotR.
Spine of the World and other areas in the North are ripe with hordes biding their time.
Hence, Obould's kingdom.
Humans/Elves/Other won't have to worry about the endless Hordes that will come screaming out of the mountains when the Weave falls - Obould's going to take care of them and come out a hero!
Can't you guys even read the writing on the walls? That Orc King spoiler says as much. In fact, I think the whole point of giving Obould so much power was to explain why the Orcs didn't over-run the planet when the weave collapses - half the Orcs in the North are now part of his army; the perfect force to fend off the other half when magic goes bye-bye.
And Alustriel will make sweet, sweet love to her new hairy boyfriend. ;)
Ed can say, think, and feel whatever he likes, it doesn't change the fact that in my opinion, the Realms is in all likelihood going to be wrecked beyond repair in 4e, ...
Ah, but those who survive will carry on the the ideals they hold true. The Realms, no matter in which form, will carry on in our hearts and or minds. For they can never dictate our gaming tables.
The thing is, if they go with the 100 year lapse, nothing they print will matter to those who want to hold true to the Realms as they are. It will make it far too easy for us to say 'no' to their drivel. And in escense, our corner of the multi-verse will never again suffer a TLA (an Eberronian's wet dream). :P
Keep on the good fight all!
Bykov.
It has been said NUMEROUS times, the Timeline in GHtR is afar from complete. It is Inclusive, not Exclusive - what is contained therein are the decisions that are set in stone - the ones they have no intention of changing their minds about. They have lots and LOTS of other 'goodies' in store for us, but they are still not sure about the rest of that stuff and how far they should go (they left room to change their minds over the next year).
There will probably be a $hitload of novels set from 1375-1385 DR, with all sorts of crazy stuff happening. Until those novels are finished, they didn't want to include any spoilers in the GHotR.
-If that's the case, then they really dropped the ball, including those extra 10 +/- years from the current campaign year. They should've just waited.
They were trying to get us 'excited' (think advertizing 'buzz'), but instead created a feeding frenzy.
I'm sure they're kickin' themselves for it now... The Orc King Spoiler would have been more then enough to generate the kind of 'buzz' they were looking for.
I would agree.
They were trying get us 'excited' (think advertizing 'buzz'), but instead created a feeding frenzy.
I'm sure they're kickin' themselves for it now... The Orc King Spoiler would have been more then enough to generate the kind of 'buzz' they were looking for.
I too agree. IMO the release of info for the 4e Realms especially and 4e in general has been handled very sloppily. I think that if WotC announced that they were firing their marketing team it would inspire more enthusiasm for everything to do with 4e then anything else they have done so far to try and generate hype.
They were trying get us 'excited' (think advertizing 'buzz'), but instead created a feeding frenzy.
-In all seriousness, though, what did they think was going to happen? I'm not trying to be critical of them, but, seriously...
-In all seriousness, though, what did they think was going to happen? I'm not trying to be critical of them, but, seriously...
be happy there's new things to find out about and read about plus new adventures to be had?
Of course, like comic book fans, RPGers are bitter and vindictive creatures with a hatred for everything that the company does. That's how you understand that we love a game line, by how much hatred we spew at anything people do.
And I will do it again, if I don't like what I see. ;)
Let's put it this way - if someone kills your family, but promises the new one will be 'better', would you be Okay with that?
Even if the wife was prettier, and the kids better behaved, would that be acceptable?
Of course it wouldn't....
;)
Of course that is all gone now. Every hero now knows each others Secret IDs and it appears they may be trying to make them all change since the world needs "Real Heros". Not sure what this means, does it mean they need to go back to 1975 where Supes could blow up a planet by flying into it? Oi.
I am sure I will get over it though even if I do not like the changes at first. I may stop reading some titles at first but I will read what is good after a while.
I stopped reading DC when Crisis happened, and did the same when Marvel did likewise.
Crisis completely rebooted DC continuity. Marvel is still working off its original continuity and has had no Crisis-type event. They did have a reality-altering event through the X-Men books that drifted into other titles but it's still the same continuity. The Ultimate line has been established as an alternate reality line.
I'm not defending Marvel - I think Marvel sucks now - just sayin' is all.
I'm not defending Marvel - I think Marvel sucks now - just sayin' is all.
-Them's fightin' words!
-Them's fightin' words!
I'm an old guard Marvel 'grognard.' Heh. For me the 'glory days' of Marvel ended in the late 80's. I disagree with almost every editorial decision Quesada makes and haven't bought any new Marvel since '03.
I'm an old guard Marvel 'grognard.' Heh. For me the 'glory days' of Marvel ended in the late 80's. I disagree with almost every editorial decision Quesada makes and haven't bought any new Marvel since '03.
Despite my numerous complaints about the main Marvel lines (I should admit I didn't pick up Civil War or post Civil War books in this assessment) as compared to DC, I actually like the Ultimate Universe stuff.
I stopped reading Marvel when they ruined movies that could have been good. Then I went to DC, and now I'm slowly moving back towards Marvel while skimming Planet Hulks in between MTG rounds.
Btw, any DC people noticed that in the COUNTDOWN poster with all the villians on it, if you re arrange them correctly, it's similar to the last supper? Some guy at our shop pointed it out.
Rich Baker kicks puppies!
I liked some of Civil War. I like what Ironman did. I like the new Thor comic so far. I liked Thunderbolts when it was led by Zemo and Hawk. I liked Planet Hult but the WWH stuff is really bad. All ofthe X-title are unreadable and have been for years. There should only be one X book and just make it good.
The Ultimate line is good except everyone knows Peters ID. That's lame.
DC? It was good till they retconned Supes and Lex knowing each other. They did this because of Smallville, which is an ok show but c'mon!
I loved DC's FR comic.
I loved DCs FR comic.
I liked some of Civil War. I like what Ironman did. I like the new Thor comic so far. I liked Thunderbolts when it was led by Zemo and Hawk. I liked Planet Hult but the WWH stuff is really bad. All ofthe X-title are unreadable and have been for years. There should only be one X book and just make it good.
The Ultimate line is good except everyone knows Peters ID. That's lame.
DC? It was good till they retconned Supes and Lex knowing each other. They did this because of Smallville, which is an ok show but c'mon!
I loved DC's FR comic.
Was that something that changed with Crisis on Infinite Earths? I remember pre -Crisis on Infinite Earths there being all sorts of comics with Superman as a boy and his buddy Lex Luthor. After that I'm not really all the acquainted with what his history was supposed to be (never been a big Supes fan.) Oh yeah, and Forgotten Realms is soooo being destroyed by that (back on topic.)
Rich Baker voted for Pat Buchanan in 2000, intentionally.
I love the FR comics.
And bringing this conversation back around to something somewhat related to the initial subject, does anyone know if they are coming out with anymore Forgotten Realms comics at Devil's Due? Or is (wait for it) 4ed going to ruin that chance for us? Eh? See what I did there? I forced a hopeless thread derailment clumsily into a situation where it did not really fit, but could be construed by the oblivious to be close to the topic. Man I'm good.
-Good question. I was always under the impression that they were trying to finish the entire story of Drizzt Do'Urden.
Rich Baker kicks puppies!
-What a fiend.
-Good question. I was always under the impression that they were trying to finish the entire story of Drizzt Do'Urden.
-What a fiend.
I heard that they liked to throat punch kittens? WotC please think of the kittens!:P
Chris Perkins must be stopped.;)
I heard that they liked to throat punch kittens? WotC please think of the kittens!:P
Chris Perkins must be stopped.;)
-Will the debauchery ever end!?
I too agree. IMO the release of info for the 4e Realms especially and 4e in general has been handled very sloppily. I think that if WotC announced that they were firing their marketing team it would inspire more enthusiasm for everything to do with 4e then anything else they have done so far to try and generate hype.
They did well "hype"wise. All the boards are talking about FR in ALL threads. It was and still is very jarring though.
Nothing they give us lasts more then a year. How much you want to bet they'll have all those new 'DM only' areas filled in by the time 4.5 hits the Shelves?
Also, the Plothooks in the new FRCG will probably ALL be used in novels - They're not for us... not anymore.
The novels ruined FR.
Rich Baker kicks puppies!
No, no...
He kicks small CHILDREN, he EATS puppies. ;)
Comics - Actually, I stopped reading DC way before Crisis - After they killed Barry Allen it was just too painful for me (Flash was my favorite). Then I switched to Marvel because thats where Flash ended up - he didn't really die, he re-appeared in an alternate universe. If you don't believe me, read THIS.
Anyhow, I was an avid collector, so when they started having alternate covers I had to have one of each. Then they started pulling that crap all the ime - 5-part covers, and holographic ones, etc...
It got too costly, and I had to decide which hobbies to give up.
I'm still here, so I guess you can tell which one I kpet. :D
I like Mark Waid's Flash, but I hate Waid for doing the new Oneshot that Retconned the Smallville TV show into the current continuity.
I liked Morrisons JLA as well, the recent stuff is
.Are you talking about that boxed set that was only good for a couple of weeks, and BAM, the Zhents are back stronger then ever, even though their main power-base was anhilated (which they instantly rebuilt!)
Yeah, my take on the "ruination of the Realms"
The novels ruined FR.
????????
I won't even dignify this with a response.
I want my 4E FRCS now before I make any kneejerk comments, thanks!
I won't even dignify this with a response.
Since I disagree with everyone you say, this makes me VERY happy. :D
You contradict yourself, BTW. Zhentil Keep was trashed in a NOVEL, and only then was it featured in a product.
If the novel never appeared, neither would the near-useless product.
ToT, the Shades, the last Mythal, Lady Penitent,* etc... all examples of novels that cr@pped all over the nice and tidy Realms.
And the WotSQ was the biggest waste of time I ever read - completely self-serving to introduce us to the "new and Improved" Lolth for 4e. We could have gotten the results of the entire series in a one paragraph blurb.
I shouldn't say ALL novels - just ones where the author feels he has to outdo the last author with how much destruction and havoc he can cause.
*Except for the first, I didn't bother to read any of those series. I come here first and find out what they are about first before wasting anymore of my hard-earned money. I do not need to spend cash to stroke some writer's ego on how cool his latest RSE is.
If something happens like the death of Khelben, I consider the implications to my own Realms and either incorporate it or not. And that's how I'll run with 4e...I'm sure there will be some cool things (game mechanics, etc.) that I can make work, but there are others that will just be left to the side like nasty creamed spinach at a potluck.
I love Mystra and the gods as presently constituted so I might have to do a bit of jury-rigging in my own Realms to keep those things in a form that I can work with.
All in all, I'm not totally gloom and doom, but it's not looking too promising.
And the WotSQ was the biggest waste of time I ever read - completely self-serving to introduce us to the "new and Improved" Lolth for 4e. We could have gotten the results of the entire series in a one paragraph blurb.
I tried reading the first novel of the WotSQ, but I could not get into it. Then I read all about what happened in the PGtF. There are several books I want to read before I go back and try to read the WotSQ again.
Show
Lolth becomes a Greater God, so that she will be relatively untouched by the Spellplague.
Thankfully, I've never considered any of the novels (good or bad) as absolute canon.
If something happens like the death of Khelben, I consider the implications to my own Realms and either incorporate it or not. And that's how I'll run with 4e...I'm sure there will be some cool things (game mechanics, etc.) that I can make work, but there are others that will just be left to the side like nasty creamed spinach at a potluck.
I love Mystra and the gods as presently constituted so I might have to do a bit of jury-rigging in my own Realms to keep those things in a form that I can work with.
All in all, I'm not totally gloom and doom, but it's not looking too promising.
I think that this really is the position most DMs should (and do) take.
ShowLolth becomes a Greater God, so that she will be relatively untouched by the Spellplague.
Haven't been able to catch up, but, I just blame the destruction of one of the greatest campaign settings for D&D on this $th Edition. If it wasn't for WotC trying to gather MMORPG players to tabletop gaming for their quick buck, Forgotten Realms wouldn't be in the sad state that it is (or will) be now.
Just when I thought we were past the $ business.
You know what, YES, they ARE doing it for money!
SO WHAT!?
Just when I thought we were past the $ business.
You know what, YES, they ARE doing it for money!
SO WHAT!?
Well if they are doing it for the money they atleast could be competent about it. :D
We've got events. But I believe those events could reflect a better setting.
I'm reminded of the vitrol the Dresden Files TV show got. Then the fans complained when it was gone.
We've got events. But I believe those events could reflect a better setting.
I watched the show, but didn't miss it when it was gone.
This is different - folks have come to love the Realms for 20 years now, and some us even longer by following Ed's FR articles in Dragon.
Don't get the naysayers confused, we are actually divided into several camps. I, for one, look forward to the new rules; they sound interesting. Most of us don't mind new rules all that much, especially the many people here who follow the setting but don't play the game.
At least half of us don't mind changes, either. FR is a living world, and it does need to grow and change. It's the rate of change, the reasons behind the changes, and the poor quality of some changes that most of us dread.
As you can see, that means the people complaining about the changes are spread out amongst those reasons, and some, like myself, feel a little bit of all three.
Anyone who complains that WotC is just in it for the money is being naive - of course they are!!!
They don't do this cr@p for fun - we do. As long as they provide us with quality products we can enjoy, then the majority of us do not mind spending our hard-earned cash on them.
Therein lies the problem, you see. When a company goes from being a small group of individuals who have true passion for what they do, to a mega-corporation where the once-cherished customers become 'the bottom line', they begin to lose sight of what they are doing. The creation process goes right out the window when products become 'deadlines' churned out in a grist mill.
I'm sure just about everyone here - naysayers and sooothsayers alike -will agree that we would prefer delayed products over poorly conceived ones. Crucial information gets left out, because of page counts, yet we get bigger fonts and longer stat blocks! Thats NOT quality, thats quantity. If a product is due out in Sept, but it would require two extra months to polish it, then I sure as hell don't mind waiting the extra time for it. But no, we get mis-matched artwork in lieu of indexes. Look at an incredibly successful company like Blizzard, who is famous for pushing back release dates. Some products are delayed two years or more, but the fans don't mind much at all. Why?
Because when we get the final product it knocks our socks off.
The problems I mentioned above have been building up for quite some time, so it is small wonder that most of us fans have little faith in the future of the Forgotten Realms. We need to be impressed once again, to restore our faith.
All I can say is, when the FRCG comes out, it better "Wow" us like the Old Grey Box did. I want my eyes to widen in wonder, not shake my head in dismay.
On the Doing it for money bit, I think I would probably interpret that a bit more charitably and give the benefit of the doubt rather than arbitrarily assigning an overly-simplistic definition to the guy's perhaps less-than-eloquent outburst. I tend to interpret that as being more like the old, faithful spouse who gets tossed over for the new, glamourous trophy spouse, only to find out that the person who just left you expects you to keep up taking care of the kids and doing all of the housework and making them dinner while you're at it... they'll let you live in the house, but do move your things down to the servants quarters. And best of all, you get to stay married because the new one won't sign a pre-nup. ;)
If you see where I'm going with that analogy...
This is different - folks have come to love the Realms for 20 years now, and some us even longer by following Ed's FR articles in Dragon.
Yeah, no
The Realms isn't being CANCELLED like Ravenloft or Birthright (Or Dragonlance!) was.At least half of us don't mind changes, either. FR is a living world, and it does need to grow and change. It's the rate of change, the reasons behind the changes, and the poor quality of some changes that most of us dread.
I understand this. I also would like to be the one to state that if Thay doesn't exist in 4E, I'm going to be tremendously ****ed off. Furthermore, if they decided to kill off Alusair and Caladnei so Azoun V can do some triumphant march to power, I'll hate Azoun V forever. I loathed a lot of the changes that Dragonlance made to 5th Age.
Therein lies the problem, you see. When a company goes from being a small group of individuals who have true passion for what they do, to a mega-corporation where the once-cherished customers become 'the bottom line', they begin to lose sight of what they are doing. The creation process goes right out the window when products become 'deadlines' churned out in a grist mill.
Unfortunately, as a former game designer, I'd like to point out that doesn't reflect the reality of what I observed. Hasbro doesn't care whether Mystra lives or dies, its doubtful they even know who the Hell she is. They hire people like Richard Baker and Ed Greenwood to make their works because they have a passion for the material.
The trick is that they know that they have to make changes that will make people want to buy new material. That's why we always have events, novels, and so ons. Because you need a lot of new stuff for a FRANCHISE to function.
I'm sure just about everyone here - naysayers and sooothsayers alike -will agree that we would prefer delayed products over poorly conceived ones.
I'm pretty sure that they honestly think this is the best product they can put out and are proud of the results.
I'm sure the American Auto Industry thinks its a good idea to keep putting out large, low-mpg cars and trucks as well... but that doesn't mean that they aren't making the same mistakes they should have learned in the 1970's... except this time they aren't taking the clue that certain Japanese manufacturers are being awfully supportive this time around, and more than likely laughing through their sleeves the whole time. ;)
And if it sells and its loved by the audience that in 20 years, they are angry as hell when people try to change it....that's just the nature of the beast. This is like people complaining about Barry Allen being killed. Yes, he was a beloved character but I'm pretty sure that Wally West is just as good.
It's also something that no one else in the world cares about but fans of Barry Allen, not even the whole of DC comics fans.I'm sorry Mystra was killed but as a Cyric fan, good for him.
Are my Realmsfan credentials being revoked?
Am I not a fan?
And if we didn't CARE, we would not be complaining so loudly, or by the same token, defend it against the naysayers.
We are really all on the same page here - we just have different agendas for what we expect. At first, like a few here (Miscelleny, Ubbergeek, etc), I was like "Well, at least we are getting the spotlight in 4e". Since Eberron was being ignored for the time being so that the FRCG would be the FIRST 4e setting-specific product, I had nothing but joy in my heart. I was willing to blindly accept whatever came our way, because it meant new lore about the setting we all hold so dear.
Unfortunely, and you have to admit, many of the 4e FR 'spoilers' are just plain scarey. I'm sure, having some business experience, that that was done on purpose. They were trying to create 'buzz', and it worked - probably far more then they bargained for.
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I'm just trying to point out that we are not just 'two sides' here. Technically, we all have our own side concerning these changes, and I'm sure no two posters think exactly alike.
I just hate the idea that we are getting lumped into two categories, because that is wrong thinking IMHO. When I first heard the Gencon announcements, I was overjoyed. Concerning the new rules, I still feel very positive. I even like what I'm hearing about the Cosmology changes, and I was considered a 'Wheel Grognard'.
I just don't want to be categorized with the "so-and-so must be stopped!" club - I have my own mind and my own reasons for not liking some of what I'm hearing.
To be honest, the whole 'revoking your Realmsfan creds' bit is a bit puzzling, since it has absolutely nothing to do with what I said up there, or really what you said. You might consider a somewhat less confrontational/provacative approach, it does tend to lead to more civil discussions in the long run. Really, its just baiting, and lets do try to avoid that, shall we?
I'm pretty sure that they honestly think this is the best product they can put out and are proud of the results.
Weeeeeell, great for them!
I understand this. I also would like to be the one to state that if Thay doesn't exist in 4E, I'm going to be tremendously ****ed off. Furthermore, if they decided to kill off Alusair and Caladnei so Azoun V can do some triumphant march to power, I'll hate Azoun V forever. I loathed a lot of the changes that Dragonlance made to 5th Age.
I don't care one way or another for Thay, but from what we've heard so far, the disruption/death of the Weave is definitely going to have an impact. I find it difficult to believe that Thay will be able to continue in its current form... Not unless some of the Red Wizards are completely unaffected by the Spellplague... Given it's a magocracy that relies heavily on magic, I think it will be a good bet that it will collapse under the weight of its own corruption. (At the very least there'll have to be some kind of backlash for years of cruel tyranny.)
As for Alusair, Caladnei, and Azoun V, I agree with you - and am pretty ticked off already. The way I see it, if we get a 100 year jump, it's unlikely that even Azoun V will still be alive. Even if it's only a 10 or 15 year jump, Alusair is likely to have stepped aside for her now adult nephew... and I'm sure if Caladnei is still around she may well have stepped aside for
Show
Vangerdahast's heir, who he had with Myrmeen Lhal
Strangely, I tend to agree with you on the male dominance showing up by and large in the Realms once 4e hits the shelves Zandilar... I'd go into what my wife thinks of it, but I'd probably get banned for obscenity. :D
I'm glad to see I'm not the lone voice crying out in the wilderness for adequate female representation within the Realms. :D
I'm glad to see I'm not the lone voice crying out in the wilderness for adequate female representation within the Realms. :D
Agreed here as well. I like modern Cormyr a lot, and let's not forget some of the others, including Laspeera or Filfaeril. Personally, what bothers me is that it felt like the story for post-Devil Dragon Cormyr under Alusair was just beginning, and I was really looking forward to it. Now it seems as if we're just going to skip ahead to a new era entirely, possibly where most of the people we like are dead (...which seems to be a common theme here).
And while I'm at it, does this seem oddly coincidental with the rumored deaths of most or all of the Seven Sisters? It feels like we're going to be left with nothing but a handful of influential female figures - Ilsevele Miritar in Myth Drannor, perhaps, is the only female ruler or adventurer of any note that isn't in at least some potential danger (and I may be overestimating there, too).
And while I'm at it, does this seem oddly coincidental with the rumored deaths of most or all of the Seven Sisters? It feels like we're going to be left with nothing but a handful of influential female figures - Ilsevele Miritar in Myth Drannor, perhaps, is the only female ruler or adventurer of any note that isn't in at least some potential danger (and I may be overestimating there, too).
Exactly my thought, it only takes a simple line like this: "Ilselvele was killed in 1396 DR by the poisoned dagger of a drow assassin" to take her from the story.
Something my dearest wife is fully expecting... was muttering something about smelling the **** in the ink as she left for work...
*chortles*
I'm also upset at plots like Alusair's regency getting nipped in the bud just like that.
I'm pretty sure that they honestly think this is the best product they can put out and are proud of the results.
The thing is, they have to convince US that it is the best things for the Realms. I do not understand people who keep on saying, "Oh, well they know what they are doing, so I you shouldn't worry about it." The thing is, we have no guarantee that they do know what they are doing. Even though I wasn't around (as in not playing D&D, I was reading the novels back then) when the transition from 2e Realms to 3e Realms happened, everything I hear from those who were said that it was a fairly smooth transition. This however, does not count as a smooth transition. Therefore, they have to prove to us that they know what they are doing, we do not just have to accept it.
As Ed said in his letter to Candlekeep, "This is indeed the Big Risk in all of this, the “roll of the dice” that I wish someone had never decided to make (because I personally value the ongoing development of a shared and unbroken imaginary Grand History of a fictional fantasy setting as something magnificent in itself, an achievement we should all continue to contribute to)."
Does someone who know know if Ed said something like this with the transition from 2e to 3e?
But given they just rehired him from years of being fired for 3E, I think he was quite happy with it. Ed got to help put everything back into a reasonable order.
Hawks, Is Ed's letter part of his scroll in the forums on Candlekeep, or is it somewhere else?
It is under General Forgotten Realms chat. Here is a link to the scroll itself.
His opinion on 1st ED to 2nd was bad
But given they just rehired him from years of being fired for 3E, I think he was quite happy with it. Ed got to help put everything back into a reasonable order.
What do you mean "years of being fired for 3E"?
Of course WotC loves their own products. What really matters is whether or not the customers love them, as well. So the argument about WotC loving what they do, loving their story, their products, etc. is moot.
So the argument about WotC loving what they do, loving their story, their products, etc. is moot.
It's not a moot point. Think about if they didn't love the realms. What if they hated it? "Hey guys, I've mad libbed what's going to happen next in Faerun! Okay, give me a person, then a noun, then a verb!"
The thing is, they have to convince US that it is the best things for the Realms. I do not understand people who keep on saying, "Oh, well they know what they are doing, so I you shouldn't worry about it." The thing is, we have no guarantee that they do know what they are doing. Even though I wasn't around (as in not playing D&D, I was reading the novels back then) when the transition from 2e Realms to 3e Realms happened, everything I hear from those who were said that it was a fairly smooth transition. This however, does not count as a smooth transition. Therefore, they have to prove to us that they know what they are doing, we do not just have to accept it.
However, it's evident that there's very little you can do besides waiting for the finished product and then voting with your wallet.
It's not a moot point. Think about if they didn't love the realms. What if they hated it? "Hey guys, I've mad libbed what's going to happen next in Faerun! Okay, give me a person, then a noun, then a verb!"
At this point it doesn't make a difference to me. They've announced changes that I dislike. I don't care if they think those changes are the best thing since sliced bread--they don't work for me. So as far as I'm concerned, the point is moot.
His opinion on 1st ED to 2nd was bad
But given they just rehired him from years of being fired for 3E, I think he was quite happy with it. Ed got to help put everything back into a reasonable order.
It looks to me like they only ran to Ed after GHotR came out, because people on the boards pulled out the torches and the pitch forks. Remember that Ed's name was not on the first list of designers for FRCS4e. The now famous 50,000 words is carrot for all the old school people who said they wouldn't buy 4e Realms.
WotC: Hi guys we decided to destroy Forgotten Realms and rebuild it for 4e.
Realms Fans: NOOO!!!
WotC: But we have a lot of cool ideas.
Realms Fans: Who is working on the FRCS4e?
WotC: Ahh...some dudes we hired.
Realms Fans: Thanks, but no thanks. Make the changes go away.
WotC: Oh cr@p! They may not even look at the 4e Realms. How can we get them to at least read the FRCS? We can get Ed Greenwood to write 50,000 words for 4e. Then all those suckers will buy our new book.:evillaugh
WotC: Oh cr@p! They may not even look at the 4e Realms. How can we get them to at least read the FRCS? We can get Ed Greenwood to write 50,000 words for 4e. Then all those suckers will buy our new book.
Everyone that doesn't like what they've heard so far will definitely pick it up and look because deep down they love the Realms regardless of if Ed wrote it or not. Most of the people crying out will be buying it, anyway.
Everyone that doesn't like what they've heard so far will definitely pick it up and look because deep down they love the Realms regardless of if Ed wrote it or not. Most of the people crying out will be buying it, anyway.
I, for one, was going to buy the 4e FRCG when it came out, no questions asked. But then after reading about the changes that they are making, I chose to change this. Now I am going to wait and take a gander at it to see if they do a good job of explaining things in a way that makes sense. If I like it, I will buy it. If not, I won't. So, as far as I go, their silly tactics of sticking poorly worded (IMO) spoilers with very little in the way of the details surrounding the events has caused me to be more cautious about buying it rather than less. I wonder if I am unique in this, or if other shared this experience.
Everyone that doesn't like what they've heard so far will definitely pick it up and look because deep down they love the Realms regardless of if Ed wrote it or not. Most of the people crying out will be buying it, anyway.
I love the Realms and have for 17 years. I won't buy the 4e books because I can't use them with my 2e and 3e Realms stuff. I will spend my money on 1e and 2e source books.
I will read it at it at Barnes and Nobles.;)
Everyone that doesn't like what they've heard so far will definitely pick it up and look because deep down they love the Realms regardless of if Ed wrote it or not. Most of the people crying out will be buying it, anyway.
Nope. I don't plan on buying the new FRCG.
Nope. I don't plan on buying the new FRCG.
Your ability to judge a product by a few released statements astounds me.
:P
Nope. I don't plan on buying the new FRCG.
Your ability to judge a product by a few released statements astounds me.
:P
As does the fact that you assume that she means that she will never buy it. It could just mean that she means to give it a good look over before she even considers buying it. You are doing exactly what you accuse her of: reading too much into the statement she made.
Of course, if they did something crazy, like gave away a Harper Pin with every sale of the FRCG, I'd buy it just for that. :D
As does the fact that you assume that she means that she will never buy it. It could just mean that she means to give it a good look over before she even considers buying it. You are doing exactly what you accuse her of: reading too much into the statement she made.
I agree (and thank you).
As does the fact that you assume that she means that she will never buy it. It could just mean that she means to give it a good look over before she even considers buying it. You are doing exactly what you accuse her of: reading too much into the statement she made.
The FR boards are getting weirder and weirder... Charles' reply didn't actually assume anything - he just commented on the fact that people judge products before they see the finished thing.
The FR boards are getting weirder and weirder... Charles' reply didn't actually assume anything - he just commented on the fact that people judge products before they see the finished thing.
The preceding few statements made no actual judgments on the products either. :D
The FR boards are getting weirder and weirder... Charles' reply didn't actually assume anything - he just commented on the fact that people judge products before they see the finished thing.
True, I heard that the new FR book kills children and then laughs. Plus it will wipe out your imgaination and never let you change things so a campaign setting can be your own. True story. ;)
It's not a moot point. Think about if they didn't love the realms. What if they hated it? "Hey guys, I've mad libbed what's going to happen next in Faerun! Okay, give me a person, then a noun, then a verb!"
You are right it is not a moot point as they don't seem to love the Realms. If they did they wouldn't be killing it for their stories. Meaning if they loved the Realms they would write stories that fit in the Realms, instead of recreating the Realms to fit their stories.
Well, unfortunately, I will be buying it, it just means that I'm effectively robbing myself by doing it and throwing money at Wizards.
I won't be buying it...I'll just borrow his.
Exactly my thought, it only takes a simple line like this: "Ilselvele was killed in 1396 DR by the poisoned dagger of a drow assassin" to take her from the story.
Want to bet it comes in the prelude of a 4th edition adventure, no less?
Want to bet it comes in the prelude of a 4th edition adventure, no less?
You mean the (FR Uber-Heroic -series) FRUH1: "Myth Drannor : Sundering of the Elves" which is scheduled for September 2008? ;) :P
The FR boards are getting weirder and weirder... Charles' reply didn't actually assume anything - he just commented on the fact that people judge products before they see the finished thing.
I have said, over and over again, that I don't like what I've seen so far. Why the HELL can't I have an opinion on that?
Besides, all I said was that I don't plan to buy the danged product. Why do I have to keep repeating myself over and over again, and why can't people understand what I write (very clearly, IMO) the FIRST time?
That's one of my personal bugaboos. What happens to family relationships between married elf couples, who don't always marry the same type of elf.
Uh...my husband's an eladrin now, and our kids are elfdrinns?
This is REALLY STUPID! There's so much they didn't think about when they started doing this stuff, and apparently, it all involves relationships. How can Richard Baker, who is married with children, not forsee these sorts of roleplaying complications? Which is where all of my problems with these changes really come from.
But apparently, D+D isn't a roleplaying game anymore. It's a storytelling game.
You are right it is not a moot point as they don't seem to love the Realms. If they did they wouldn't be killing it for their stories. Meaning if they loved the Realms they would write stories that fit in the Realms, instead of recreating the Realms to fit their stories.
In the end, that doesn't matter. What matters to me is whether or not I like the result.
True, I heard that the new FR book kills children and then laughs. Plus it will wipe out your imgaination and never let you change things so a campaign setting can be your own. True story. ;)
Is this directed at me?
I've said over and over again that my Realms will always be my Realms. All the more reason not to BUY the effing book.
You mean the (FR Uber-Heroic -series) FRUH1: "Myth Drannor : Sundering of the Elves" which is scheduled for September 2008? ;) :P
In the other cut seen Hanali Celanil arranges a marriage between Corellon and Sehanine Moonbow. Solonor gets jealous so Corellon kills him. The Seldarine split when Deep Sashelas and Aerdria Faenya decide to join the Dwarven pantheon.
I have said, over and over again, that I don't like what I've seen so far. Why the HELL can't I have an opinion on that?
Besides, all I said was that I don't plan to buy the danged product. Why do I have to keep repeating myself over and over again, and why can't people understand what I write (very clearly, IMO) the FIRST time?
For what it's worth, my post wasn't about your comment. I was just confused why hawkinsthedm read something in Charles' post that clearly wasn't there.
And these boards definitely have become more hostile, or the general feel is very tense. It's a game, people - chill.
So it's understandable why so many people are mad. Of course, with all the feedback on the board, it seems like WoTC may be Jedi-mind tricking everyone into having a really bad pre-disposition on the new material.
I think it would be in WoTC's best interest at this point that, instead of all the Faerunian doom and gloom, they release a few articles on the bright side of 4E life. Maybe a 50,000 word article. I heard someone was contracted out for something like that.
All the news so far is Mystra dies(bad), Favorite characters gone(bad), and minimal Ed Greenwood(bad). So if they don't at least release a few previews on the (good) side, Operation: "Marketing Suspense!" may backfire.
(TPS reports of mass destruction lol...oh I guess I'm the only one laughing. Curse my humorless humor!)
All the news so far is Mystra dies(bad), Favorite characters gone(bad), and minimal Ed Greenwood(bad). So if they don't at least release a few previews on the (good) side, Operation: "Marketing Suspense!" may backfire.
The problem is that they veiw these changes as good.
The problem is that they veiw these changes as good.
Because these changes are good, to WotC. If we like them remains to be seen. Who knows?;) I will know in August 2008.
Because these changes are good, to WotC. If we like them remains to be seen. Who knows?;) I will know in August 2008.
18DELTA's reasonableness must be stopped...:P
I don't agree that these changes are good for WotC though. They might think so, but I rather doubt it.
In the other cut seen Hanali Celanil arranges a marriage between Corellon and Sehanine Moonbow. Solonor gets jealous so Corellon kills him. The Seldarine split when Deep Sashelas and Aerdria Faenya decide to join the Dwarven pantheon.
Nicely played!
The usual word count of an university essay is 6.000 words (at least around here). My diploma thesis had over 27.000 words on 85 pages. Even if the formatting is different, you can expect 50.000 words to fill about 120 to 160 pages of pure text.
In the other cut seen Hanali Celanil arranges a marriage between Corellon and Sehanine Moonbow. Solonor gets jealous so Corellon kills him. The Seldarine split when Deep Sashelas and Aerdria Faenya decide to join the Dwarven pantheon.
No, that's the synopsis of the plot in FRUH2: "Myth Arvandor : Sundering of the Eladrin Pantheon" ;) :D
I haven't caught up on this thread, but I'd like to add further to what I originally stated:
Obviously, they want new gamers and us older gamers are getting axed. They say the Realms is intimidating to new guys...but who says the new guys HAVE to know all the information at once in order to get a game going? The point of the Realms is to explore such a big world a little bit at a time, and anyone, new or old, can accomplish that by building adventures based around recently read material or introducing that material slowly into their Realms games.
WotC is going about this all the wrong way and I think it's truly their way of destroying what made the Realms popular for 20+ years in order to attract the World of Warcraft crowd just to make, what they hope, is a big buck. It's no longer the Forgotten Realms, it's an entirely NEW campaign setting and I dare someone to argue otherwise.
The setting needs a new name change to represent this brand new, non-Forgotten Realms setting.
Please change the Forgotten Realms to:
The Sundered Realms
You know what I really hate is when someone tries to speak for all of us "old gamers". I've been playing FR from the beginning and I happen to love the changes. The original FR actually had large areas of the map unexplored and ready to be filled by enterprising DMs interested in creating their own part of the world. Since then we've had so many suppliments, novels and expansions that just about ever part of the realms is filled for us. You know sometime change is good. Sometimes it can be invigorating. What I see on this board is a bunch of people complaining that they don't want thier realms changed. Well you know it isn't just yours. The realms need a shake up and this is the best way to do it.
I for one endorse the changes. It can only lead to new and exciting adventures ahead. Afterall the most interesting times are those during times of great upheaval and strife. Bring ti on FR 4E.
Dear WotC staff,
I've just read RA Salvatore's sample chapter from the novel "The Orc King".
I had already read here and there that one of his novels was meant to be set in the “new” Realms, but I didn't figure that he was going to set this novel 100 years ahead in time.
This new novel's premises are hugely ridiculous.
And what about the cliffhanger of the Hunter's Blades Trilogy? He left a very unsolved situation, unsolved bonds between characters and so on.
It's like RAS said: "They are in a very tight spot, how will they come out of this?..... But let's just Fast Forward ahead 100 years, they’re dead and a there’s completely different world!"
I won't be buying any more FR novels and, if things are going to stay this way, I'll never buy any other D&D products: I never meant to go this far, but this has to come to an end, once and for all, in one way or in the other.
You don't left me (or other fans who think like me) any other chance: so drastic are changes you force onto the whole D&D.
You are ruining everything, in a false hope of gaining more fans from other sources (read: MMORPG). Well, I may play the angry fan’s part and say that you are going to fail and serves you well, but I won't: I love D&D too much, and I love the Forgotten Realms even more. Don't ruin them. Please.
I can understand that the sheer numbers of MMORPG players is enough to cause a marketing expert’s head spinning with awesome expectations: they are millions. Maybe RPG players are millions too, but less millions.
But any marketing expert should also consider that there are reasons for such numbers.
Psychological studies have spotted the average RPG player's profile, which is: 1) IQ generally higher than average 2) good to high instruction rating 3) creative and imaginative mind 4) tendency to have close circles of friends.
The MMORPG player does not necessarily answer to these requirements, though: any RPG player may play a MMORPG easily, but the reverse is not true by any means.
MMORPG players do not: 1) require superior intelligence (all you have to do is memorizing attack combos, left click, and which button to push), 2) instruction rating isn’t relevant, because no mental effort is involved (while it is vital in traditional RPG), 3) MMORPG players do not need creative or imaginative mind (on the contrary MMORPG, as any video-game, tend to ruin creativity: visual aspects are provided by the graphics, the story is provided by programmers, character options are limited by program allowance: you'll never be able to use a spell in a way different from the originally intended way, nor will you be allowed to use the surrounding environment with the same, unlimited, creativity typical of any real RPG: there is no DM to judge any out-of-the-rule action, just a chip with pre-programmed orders). 4) MMORPG does not require any social skill, on the contrary it enhances tendencies toward loneliness, while RPG requires social skills (because other people are involved, while in a MMORPG solo games are frequent).
Such characteristics are not freely interchageable.
RPG requires social skills, imaginative and creative mind, patience: this is the reason because MMORPG players are not likely to shift in mass to traditional RPG. They don’t need to: their tastes point toward another direction.
And all of this is not a matter of rules: you can lower the complexity of the rules as much as you wish, you can make the game as fast as you can, but any MMORPG will stay faster, easier and graphically more appalling. Traditional RPG has nothing that can really appeal the average MMORPG player (not to speak about hard core ones!).
What will happen will be that D&D will loose a great part of it's traditional, accustomed fans, while just a very small part of MMORPG players will shift to D&D, but once they'll see that it cannot offer the same graphic appealing and ease/speed of use of a MMORPG they'll go back to MMORPG.
This path will lead you of WotC to find out that few new players will be added to the hobby and that many more will have departed.
You say you won't think back to this whole 4E and more importantly that you won't think back of the Forgotten Realms changes. Well, you'd better re-think such statements, because if you stick to it you'll loose a great part your fans in a few months.
I'm a relatively short term player, since I started buy D&D products in 2001 (it should be noted that, by now, I own 55 handbooks between the 3.0 and 3.5 edition, so I gave my deal of bucks to the hobby). But when long term players, such as people who collect D&D material since the 80's (or even the 70'), say that they'll leave the game because of the 4E changes, such a thing should give to think: "What have we done to convince such enduring customers to leave the game?" This is the question you WotC staff should ask yourselves and think very much and carefully about the answer, because you products' future is at stake.
Not only: Ed Greenwood himself, though not openly, seems disappointed and said he stays in just to keep the changes under control. When one says “I’ve decided to stay because...” it means that he has thought about leaving (and we are speaking about the creator of the Realms). This is very serious matter. Very, very, very serious indeed. What kind of trust can we put we fans into the new Realms if even the creator of the setting seems so much disappointed with it?
I hope you of WotC see the error before it becomes undoable: you are still in time. D&D can have a 4th edition and it should be the chance for correcting 3.x flaws. And also changes could be made to Forgotten Realms, which are not static, but such changes should be: a) minor ones or just potentially major (such as it was the return of Bane with the 3.0 FRCS or the return of the floating city of Shade), and b) original ones (please, dead Mystra: how many times did this already happen? It’s getting ridiculous). There is still a whole lot of things to be said about Forgotten Realms (and if you had done detail-deep handbooks, rather than just PrC/New Feats containers you'd have still more) without thinking about drastic changes.
What you did wrong with 3.x was just saying "This is the Underdark, there is this city, and this city, and this city, and this city; you can gain this PrC, this PrC and this PrC; you can buy this feat and this feat and this feat". What happened with the detailed info about races, customs, trade, monsters (and I mean much more monsters with detailed info, not just the bunch of game stats that is given in most of 3.x FR accessories).
There was nothing of the old AD&D addition in flavor, details, maps, location descriptions, optional rules and, overall, deepness of information. These are the kind of things you should aim to put in 4E Realms if you really want both to keep old fans and to gain new ones: the Realms are appealing as they are. It’d require just a little more effort to give them an additional push, so that new fans join old ones, without trying to challenge MMORPG on their own territory (a challenge that, if taken, RPG cannot win, not against MMORPG’s conditions).
There is nothing wrong with current Forgotten Realms deities: there’s no need to kill them in mass. What’s wrong it’s maybe that players are forced to choose one, but it’s a minor flaw (and easily correctable).
I refuse to think that you don't see the huge, unnecessary risk of this: 4E already requires that entirely new campaigns are started. And we (at least I) could endure it, if the game stayed funny enough. But this is not enough for you, apparently: the entire Forgotten Realms Setting is going to be so drastically changed that anything (anything) the players did in the past games will be worthless, ignored and destroyed. We are speaking of ruining years of games: it is not the kind of things that players take with just a shrug. There are thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands players, that will stick to 3.x material rather than spend money and time in a completely different game system that does not allow character conversion (as you say) and, worse still, a completely changed Campaign Setting, in which they’d be forced whether they want or not. This is not the way of gaining new customers, this is the way to loose them.
There is still time to step back: nearly one year of time. It is not much speaking in terms of publications, but it can be enough if you put some serious hard work in it (after all it is your job).
RAS has already written at least one novel about these changes, I know, but that's no unsolvable problem: just make it non-canon. Sales won't be good, but at least you'll not be going to loose fans permanently (and after all even characters from the soap opera "Dallas" made bad dreams about dead relatives).
You of WotC may ask what kind of right I have to say such things. And you’d be right in asking so. I could say that I have the right of the paying customer, but I won't. I'll say that I have the right of the fan (and a loyal one's). The right of the gamer who spent so many hours of his life playing D&D, enjoying the FRCS and plotting devious schemes as DM for the fun of other players. I think it's a good deal of things that give me the right of telling you that, though you may think you're doing the right thing with FRCS, you are not.
Please, don't ruin D&D and don't, for God's sake, ruin the Realms as you are doing. Think it better. D&D is still a game so full of potential and so are the Realms as a Setting: there is no need of major changes.
Thank you
White _Wizard
PS if there is any way to send this directly to WotC, I'd like to know. Thank you.
I don't know why change has to equal ruin. Really people lets get a grip. I see the problem as too many people are way to emotionally investing in fictional characters. Remember it's a role playing game which by definition means we are supposed to use our own imaginations to fill in the blanks. I think a segment of the FR fans have become lazy with all the realms lore being spoon fed to them. That's what's great about WOTC's new approach. It's a kind of mini reset with the result being the players now have more control over how to flesh out thier version of the Forgotten Realms.
Fantasy worlds are supposed to be living breathing entities but most of you seem to want to keep it stuck in one moment. Stop doing what's easy and take a chance with the new changes. You never know you might end up really liking it.
I don't know why change has to equal ruin. Really people lets get a grip. I see the problem as too many people are way to emotionally investing in fictional characters. Remember it's a role playing game which by definition means we are supposed to use our own imaginations to fill in the blanks. I think a segment of the FR fans have become lazy with all the realms lore being spoon fed to them. That's what's great about WOTC's new approach. It's a kind of mini reset with the result being the players now have more control over how to flesh out thier version of the Forgotten Realms.
Fantasy worlds are supposed to be living breathing entities but most of you seem to want to keep it stuck in one moment. Stop doing what's easy and take a chance with the new changes. You never know you might end up really liking it.
Yes a fantasy world is a breathing enity...which is why I oppose the changes because they are not living changes.
You are also right there were places in the Realms that wasn't delved into which we developed on our own with the promise they wouldn't be touched...now they have been touched and we get more promises of areas not being touched well till they got idea for them. Personaly it just one big dumb merry go round which I am tired of.
You say use your imagination as it is a new idea...sure which is why I don't like the changes because it has run counter to what my imagination has done to the Realms. Every change I have adapted to my version of the Realms using that imagination. Now it has come at last that I can't even fathom these changes as fun or fait to my players.
Also these changes has nothing to do with the Realms in reality. It more has to do with people's misperceptions and novel fiat. Both are very bad to allow room for imagination.
A better change would have been a moderate change that still allow for all the games that have been played in the Realms for years and the new ones. This is not the case.
Agreed here as well. I like modern Cormyr a lot, and let's not forget some of the others, including Laspeera or Filfaeril. Personally, what bothers me is that it felt like the story for post-Devil Dragon Cormyr under Alusair was just beginning, and I was really looking forward to it. Now it seems as if we're just going to skip ahead to a new era entirely, possibly where most of the people we like are dead (...which seems to be a common theme here).
And while I'm at it, does this seem oddly coincidental with the rumored deaths of most or all of the Seven Sisters? It feels like we're going to be left with nothing but a handful of influential female figures - Ilsevele Miritar in Myth Drannor, perhaps, is the only female ruler or adventurer of any note that isn't in at least some potential danger (and I may be overestimating there, too).
Which leaves room for new influential female figures to step to the fore.
We should all try to moderate our emotions rationally, but it's very important that we not blunt them.
Yes a fantasy world is a breathing enity...which is why I oppose the changes because they are not living changes.
You are also right there were places in the Realms that wasn't delved into which we developed on our own with the promise they wouldn't be touched...now they have been touched and we get more promises of areas not being touched well till they got idea for them. Personaly it just one big dumb merry go round which I am tired of.
You say use your imagination as it is a new idea...sure which is why I don't like the changes because it has run counter to what my imagination has done to the Realms. Every change I have adapted to my version of the Realms using that imagination. Now it has come at last that I can't even fathom these changes as fun or fait to my players.
Also these changes has nothing to do with the Realms in reality. It more has to do with people's misperceptions and novel fiat. Both are very bad to allow room for imagination.
A better change would have been a moderate change that still allow for all the games that have been played in the Realms for years and the new ones. This is not the case.
We won't know how bad or good these changes will be until we know more. I remember when second edition came out and the whole Time of Troubles mess that had people screaming from the roof tops how much they hated it and FR would fail because of it. You see how well that worked out. To me this is the same situation. A bunch of people who just can't stand anyone messing with their rigid ideas of what the realms should be are screaming that this will ruin FR. But FR survived and prospered.
I'll take the wait and see approach instead of sounding like a spoiled child threatening to take his ball and go home.
You cannot say that "FR survived and prospered." You can say that WotC's ideal of FR has survived and remained (somewhat) lucrative. But they're destroying it, specifically, because the sales seem to be dropping.
I continue to be intrigued when people try to validate quality of art (all forms of entertainment) solely by how well it's accepted by the masses, rather than accepting the fact that it's a completely subjective ideal that cannot be very well justified in any universal way.
You cannot say that "FR survived and prospered." You can say that WotC's ideal of FR has survived and remained (somewhat) lucrative. But they're destroying it, specifically, because the sales seem to be dropping.
And just how are they destroying it? Making a statement like that without any facts to back it up is rather silly. Just because you don't like the direction they have choosen to take the game doesn't mean it won't be successful.
Like I said before, I've gamed in every incarnation of FR through three editions with many changes and I still think the FR world is the most rich and intriguing out there. I would hate for it to stay in one state just to satisfy the "I hate change" group. This isn't a novel that's being rewritten. It's a living breathing world that I believe should continue to change. Instead of looking at the new opportunities there are for roleplaying and adventure we have people so personally invested in make believe characters that this board fills up with immature statements of condemnation. How does going out of your way to insult the designers and WOTC make FR better?
In the end it's all irrelavent since they can't make you change the way you play the game.
Emotional investiture in anything is what makes humanity function, for good or for ill. It's the very fact that people are so disconnected with concepts and themes on a larger, societal scale among Western culture (or from what I've witnessed in America, at least), reflected in this similar mindset WotC is displaying, that makes me sad.
We should all try to moderate our emotions rationally, but it's very important that we not blunt them.
But in the end we are talking about a game here. Let's try to have a little perspective.
For what it's worth, my post wasn't about your comment. I was just confused why hawkinsthedm read something in Charles' post that clearly wasn't there.
And these boards definitely have become more hostile, or the general feel is very tense. It's a game, people - chill.
In any case I apologize for losing my temper like I did. While I still stand by the points I made, I regret the tone in which I wrote them.
I don't know why change has to equal ruin. Really people lets get a grip. I see the problem as too many people are way to emotionally investing in fictional characters.
While I know that there are more important things in life than this hobby, I would like to point out that characters serve their purpose precisely when people become emotionally invested in them. Otherwise they are just...ideas floating in space.
Emotional investiture in anything is what makes humanity function, for good or for ill.
...
We should all try to moderate our emotions rationally, but it's very important that we not blunt them.
I totally agree!
We won't know how bad or good these changes will be until we know more. I remember when second edition came out and the whole Time of Troubles mess that had people screaming from the roof tops how much they hated it and FR would fail because of it. You see how well that worked out. To me this is the same situation. A bunch of people who just can't stand anyone messing with their rigid ideas of what the realms should be are screaming that this will ruin FR. But FR survived and prospered.
I'll take the wait and see approach instead of sounding like a spoiled child threatening to take his ball and go home.
I am sorry am I sounding like a spoiled child?
Anyway I have also played though every change to the Realms. Some I hated(The ToT mess where they defined the gods in a very bad way) some I liked though mostly though adaption(Like what I did to the city of Shade), but these changes are not even adaptable to.
Also lets be honest it seems these changes cater to the spoiled child ideals.
You are right at the end of the day I really don't care I really don't have to buy these books, though I figured beforew these mistakes get deeper maybe we can convince them to see reason and actualy publish useful books for every FR game.
Instead of looking at the new opportunities there are for roleplaying and adventure we have people so personally invested in make believe characters that this board fills up with immature statements of condemnation.
Again, why care about the setting at all if you aren't interested in the characters who call the setting home? Heck, isn't the point of this whole HOBBY about making emotionally, personally invested in make-believe characters--of your own creation if no one elses?
Otherwise, why not just play Sudoku or something?
How does going out of your way to insult the designers and WOTC make FR better?
Who is doing that? Dan? John? Myself?
I'll take the wait and see approach instead of sounding like a spoiled child threatening to take his ball and go home.
If someone does that, pray tell, how does that affect YOU?
As I said before...it is absolutely correct that one need not adopt any of the planned changes for their own personal Realms.
And for that very reason, there is absolutely no need for that person to buy the 4E FRCG.
But apparently, D+D isn't a roleplaying game anymore. It's a storytelling game.
Isn't that what a role-playing game is supposed to be? Telling stories with your friends?
Nahh, I get what you meant, I just thought that it was funny you put it that way.
Rich Baker leaves the toilet seat up.
It's facts that:
1) Gods that have always been portrayed as mature are suddenly acting like spoiled eight year olds.
2) The Tlincallis, who SHOULD follow Zaltec, are now following Obox-Ob like he's a clamshell monkey, which, while I love Obox-Ob to death, still makes no sense.
The Tlincallis following a giant iron golem dingus from space would have made more sense than this.
3) I cannot stress how important Mystra, the Seven Sisters, Halaster, and Vangerdahast and a lot of Ed Greenwood's creations are to theme. The problem is that someone decided that THEME SHOULD BE DIFFERENT. That makes the game not fun for me. When the game changed from "All these ancient empires lurk underground, waiting to be rediscovered to...Look...dudes...here they are..." that almost made me walk.
4) Now, I've broken my back on the Realms for 20 years to run multiple games and make the world more "living" for my players. So how do these changes affect them? There hasn't been one word of mechanics on how to have your PC's survive these events and not go cuckoo. And if I do it myself, advance time, and do it "WRONG," it's not me who pays the price. It's them!
5) So tell me how these changes benefit my long time game, and I'll show you fifteen to twenty happy gamers who will buy this product. Please remember I do put out enough money to buy at least one product for them myself each year.
Isn't that what a role-playing game is supposed to be? Telling stories with your friends?
Nahh, I get what you meant, I just thought that it was funny you put it that way.
Sigh I now wished I never used that verbal short cut to described what a RPG is....now people have taken it for a fact.
Rich Baker leaves the toilet seat up.
I heard he doesn't need to put the toilet seat up...
(If you read this Mr.Baker please understand it is just a joke...as I hope you guys eventualy confess that the last two years in the GHotR is...)
Sigh I now wished I never used that verbal short cut to described what a RPG is....now people have taken it for a fact.
Gary Gygax did say that the worst thing that could happen to the gaming industry is the gamers realizing that they didn't need rules. :D Wait, I'm quoting Gary Gygax now? I am a "grognard." Whatever shall I do?
Rich Baker does his best to contribute to global warming.
Gary Gygax did say that the worst thing that could happen to the gaming industry is the gamers realizing that they didn't need rules. :D Wait, I'm quoting Gary Gygax now? I am a "grognard." Whatever shall I do?
Go try to get Greyhawk revived? Destroy the Realms by your very presence on these boards?
:D
Gary Gygax did say that the worst thing that could happen to the gaming industry is the gamers realizing that they didn't need rules. :D Wait, I'm quoting Gary Gygax now? I am a "grognard." Whatever shall I do?
You know you are right....well we don't need their rules...I like rules though.
1)It saves time.
2)It stops the game from becoming a cooperative story telling thingee.
Rich Baker does his best to contribute to global warming.
That is because he is a alien trying to prepare earth for the eventual invasion...
Which leaves room for new influential female figures to step to the fore.
So they've killed off all of the characters I know and love, and just expect me to sit and wait for them to present new ones that I may or may not like, and that they may or may not just kill off later if those characters prove to be 'problematic' or just aren't popular enough?
I've been down this road before with Dragonlance - No thanks. Change doesn't have to equal ruin, no, but too much, too fast, in a way that feels forced rather than natural, that alters the basic nature of a number of underlying constants - yes, that runs the risks of doing a lot of damage.
I personally liked a lot of what I had seen in the novels, up until the recent revelations. Not everything, sure, but I don't expect to get everything I want. I can take the good with the bad. However, this goes way beyond that. If it's going to come to the point that they're going to make so many radical changes to the world, and kill off so many NPCs, then my feeling is that I may well be better off either playing games set entirely prior to the whole Spellplague mess, or in another world entirely - whether of my own creation or someone else's.
Complex characters, a long and intricate history, a plethora of powergroups, many different and conflicting pantheons, a well-rounded cosmology (which I personally do not like, I still use the Great Wheel in my campaigns, but that's not the point) etc. only get in the way of achieving that goal.
Sadly, having this in mind I don't have much hope that the designers will see the light of reason and realize that many of todays gamers started as 12-Year-Olds and learned a lot from gaming. I believe that I've become more educated and altogether a better person than I would have been otherwise, because I started gaming in complex settings like the Realms when I was young and identified with its inhabitants.
You're killing a lot of my friends, WoTC! (Already killed some, like Khelben)
P.S.: Excuse me if my english sounds a little stilted, I'm not a native speaker.
It is the very complexity of things which drives the Realms. Why in the name of the Gods would I want them to take it away?
That is because he is a alien trying to prepare earth for the eventual invasion...
I heard he is a member of the Illuminati, who are secretly in league with the aliens!
He also keeps Bigfoot in a cage......
On the serious side, though, I've already gone through the five stages and no longer care. The Realms are already dead to me now - the new FRCG will just be the funeral. I'm not saying I don't love the Realms; I'll always love what they WERE.
So I'll see you guys at the wake - we'll talk, we'll shmooze, and if we're Jewish we'll eat our sadness away. ;)
I get the impression that you are preparing not to like what they'll put in the new book, even if the stuff is good.
That way, you can say "I knew it" when it comes out. You get to be right, and can continue bashing the Realms on the boards.
And if you are calling us liars? Well, I for one don't even bother holding discussions with people who can't believe what I say in the first place. It makes civil discourse impossible.
Trashing the new setting before even knowing what's in it still is not something very wise to do.
I get the impression that you are preparing not to like what they'll put in the new book, even if the stuff is good.
That way, you can say "I knew it" when it comes out. You get to be right, and can continue bashing the Realms on the boards.
sigh...
What exactly are we bashing? Pretty much things that have already happened(the last ten years in the GHotR for the most part) and the what they have said in general.
They haven't given use any hints that we will like anything.
Also if it is good then well won't we be pleasently surprised? Personaly after it is published(the FRCG) lives up to what I think it will be you won't see me on these boards anymore really.
OMG guys stop it!:D "Richard Baker throat punches gnomes on days that ends in y!";) :P
"Richard Baker throat punches gnomes on days that ends in y!";) :P
So that's why they're going extinct in 4E, he's killing them all.
We have to save the Gnomes!
Trashing the new setting before even knowing what's in it still is not something very wise to do.
I get the impression that you are preparing not to like what they'll put in the new book, even if the stuff is good.
That way, you can say "I knew it" when it comes out. You get to be right, and can continue bashing the Realms on the boards.
It doesnt matter what secrets they have in store, awesome or otherwise, if those secrets dont undo the things we already know about and dont like. Removing the Weave, gods, and NPCs turns the Realms from a unique setting that I enjoy to just another generic D&D setting in my opinion. Theres no awesome super secret thing to be unveiled that will make me forget all that. If I wanted a different kind of setting I would have played in a different setting.
I am not preparing to not like anything, I have reviewed the information available to me and I dont like it. Im not bashing the Realms nor will I be when the new book comes out. Ill likely not buy it based on what I know about it.
Again, why care about the setting at all if you aren't interested in the characters who call the setting home? Heck, isn't the point of this whole HOBBY about making emotionally, personally invested in make-believe characters--of your own creation if no one elses?
Otherwise, why not just play Sudoku or something?
I agree -- whether we are talking about PCs or NPCs, they're all make-believe characters. And whether you play D&D or some indie RPG, you should be emotionally invested in the setting -- after all, what's the point in playing, if you don't *care* about events in the game? (and I'm not talking about mechanical stuff, such as slaying monsters with uber-cool tactics, or getting new feats, XP or magical items ;)). Any setting comes "alive" through its NPCs -- and this is especially true in the Realms.
I am a bit disappointed in the apparent "shift" in how the game designers see the meaning of the setting in 4E -- just take a look at James Wyatt's latest Dungeoncraft installment. I couldn't help but feel that his perspective seems to be: "Let's steal and implement stuff so that the basic layout of the setting is sketched down as quickly as possible -- then we'll get to the DUNGEONS, which are way COOLER than the boring village and its surrounding countryside!" I hope that he yet proves me wrong, but he's not the only one to imply that the setting (and especially the NPCs -- note that James detailed none in his article) are "unimportant" and details just get in the way of your ROCKIN' dungeon adventures. Indeed, it seems that it (the setting) -- which I think is the *heart* of any campaign -- will be "dumbed down", too.
I'm trying to pull together a list of questions that I can bring to the 4E team. I'm trying to get a few from each of the major forums areas. I'd appreciate if the community could work together to try to come up with a top 5 list of questions that I can include in my compilation. Thanks!
-Mike
Fabius, that inference into the characters of such peoples has been repeatedly rebuked. Unless you're willing to call many of us outright liars, then I think you should already know bringing it up again holds no water.
And if you are calling us liars? Well, I for one don't even bother holding discussions with people who can't believe what I say in the first place. It makes civil discourse impossible.
I was referring to sayings like this:
The Realms are already dead to me now - the new FRCG will just be the funeral.
followed by this:
Hey, Markus. If we're going to get together at Gencon and have a Funeral for the Realms, what night do you want to do it? It might actually be better to do it at Origins, where Wizards does not appear, as stupid as that will be three weeks after 4th edition's release.
Or this:
This entire discussion reminds me of Nightwish's current situation, with Tarja and Anette. And I still think the "new" Nightwish with Anette (the new FR), while it might be decent, isn't as good as the "old" Nightwish with Tarja (the old FR).
Or read the rubbish Razz writes around here.
You're jumping to conclusions about the new material on a very unstable basis, because we don't exactly know anything about it.
Personaly after it is published(the FRCG) lives up to what I think it will be you won't see me on these boards anymore really.
I guess that includes all the doomsayers here. But does that mean the other member will have to put up with your laments until next august?
Heck, I don't know if I return here once the new FRCS is out. But I do not judge material I haven't seen yet.
Btw, I used the word "trashing", not "bashing".
I guess that includes all the doomsayers here. But does that mean the other member will have to put up with your laments until next august?
I guess so, unless a new rule is established that prevents people from saying...well, what you don't want them to say.
I've decided that FRCG will most likely not be for me, but I fail to see how that affects anyone else. I mean, I'm not exhorting OTHER people not to buy the upcoming FRCG.
I am willing to sacrifice some sacred cows if the changes make sense within the ecology of a world. It has to work with the past generation of established lore. Some great minds worked on that.
You're jumping to conclusions about the new material on a very unstable basis, because we don't exactly know anything about it.
I reiterate the initial statement I made.
NO we are NOT. I am talking ONLY about what I've seen published, thanks. Stop trying to put words into our mouths.
And, as I've said before, I see these upcoming changes as merely one part of a trend that has been established for a while, now (a trend that I dislike). So, I have every reason to be skeptical.
I was referring to sayings like this:
followed by this:
Or this:
Or read the rubbish Razz writes around here.
You're jumping to conclusions about the new material on a very unstable basis, because we don't exactly know anything about it.
I guess that includes all the doomsayers here. But does that mean the other member will have to put up with your laments until next august?
Heck, I don't know if I return here once the new FRCS is out. But I do not judge material I haven't seen yet.
Btw, I used the word "trashing", not "bashing".
Just get used to it Fabius, people on the net like to complain AND be very dramatic about it. They also like saying the same things over and over again and then have their net buddies restate and confirm everything they have said on 12 other threads about pretty much the same topic. This is a negative thread towards 4E FR anyway so everyone who posts on it should realize that. This is a dislike 4E/"whining" thread. As long as people respond negatively or positively to this thread it will reamain alive and people will continue to repeat the same arguements over and over.
I am also contributing right now but I am starting to find peoples repetivive drama fun. ;)
For what it's worth, my post wasn't about your comment. I was just confused why hawkinsthedm read something in Charles' post that clearly wasn't there.
And these boards definitely have become more hostile, or the general feel is very tense. It's a game, people - chill.
I read that he assumed that Rinonalyrna Fathomlin had assumed that the changes will be bad because she does not plan to buy the FRCG "hot out of the oven." I saw it, you didn't. Was it there? Was it not? I still see it. You still don't. Since I saw it, I defended the person I saw in the right. I will not apologize for it.
I am also contributing right now but I am starting to find peoples repetivive drama fun. ;)
-I'm not. It's getting to the point, now, where serious and acual academic and scholarly discussion on the intracacies of the setting are being stifled. In other words (my own), "it's getting friggin' annoying that everyone's posting about this stuff, and not relevant stuff".
Yeah, why do people keep repeating the "we don't know anything!" talking point? We DO know some things, thanks to the teasers WotC has kindly provided us.
And, as I've said before, I see these upcoming changes as merely one part of a trend that has been established for a while, now (a trend that I dislike). So, I have every reason to be skeptical.
Thank you. This is the best assessment I have seen so far.
Apparently, there are many "blind" consumers that see WotC as nothing but a RPG God that deserves all worship, and all that they do is never wrong. Whatever they do is purely for the best intentions. So they bash us "whiners" and "complainers" that we can't see the holy, enlightened power of Wizards of the Coast and their infallible decisions.
Sorry to you folks that believe this naively, but they do what's best for their checking accounts. Not for you.
Also, it has been proven not too long ago, there are a lot of WotC employees that come on their boards (and sometimes other boards) anonymously to do nothing but bash the naysayers and to promote their newest products. It happened on the Star Wars boards so I don't doubt it is happening here. People have traced the IP of some posters and it ended up being the same IP as some WotC staff. What sneaky bastards.
I've grouped those people who are waiting for 4E into the following categories:
Noobs/Newbs: Most fall into this category. They've either recently played D&D, own very few D&D books, haven't digested so much tradition and lore, and/or play a lot of MMORPGs, most likely World of Warcraft. They could care less about us "veterans" that want to keep the game in its roots, and they really don't care how WotC changes the game as long as they can hack apart some trolls in any edition. This group is the main killer of D&D.
Indecisive: These are the folks who are next on the list of killing our favorite pastime as gamers. It's also the type of people that can't get Congress to do anything or vote for the right President of the USA. They have this "wait and see" attitude, as if they don't have any power to change what they don't like is coming in 4E. They also have nothing better to contribute other than "You don't know what is happening, wait and see. It could be the best edition ever." (um, that's what they said with 3E...) when we do know what is happening. It's obvious. These people are, sometimes, also in denial.
Optimists: I hate these types. They see all change as good change no matter what. These are the ones that say 4E will be better, wait and see. I think they're either on some "happy pills" or in serious denial.
The Flock: Ah, these are the ones who're few in number but cause a lot of damage. This group simply doesn't see any wrong with WotC. They believe all they do is just and infallible. They believe everything is being changed for the better no matter what. Halflings could turn into half-duck creatures and beholders could be just one floating eyeball and red dragons could turn into purple dragons, yet these folk still believe WotC is doing it for the better of all gamers and D&D will be better than ever.....I actually pity this group more than finding myself angry.
Incognito: Rare, but it happens, you have WotC employees posing as normal consumers to promote their product. It's happened here before, it's happened on Wikipedia, so I will not put this behind them.
and decide not to buy it. That is my point: We need to buy from an informed position. All of us. Nay-sayers and Yay-sayers.I guess that includes all the doomsayers here. But does that mean the other member will have to put up with your laments until next august?
No I don't speak for everyone here...are you saying I have multiple acounts? Also what 'laments' from me have you read? I have given critism to what they have done...that is all.
Heck, I don't know if I return here once the new FRCS is out. But I do not judge material I haven't seen yet.
And nor should you judge material before you see it. Though we are judging material we have seen. Or have previewed for us by WotC. What we can't give our honest opinion on this stuff?
Anyway if it somehow hurts you reading these critisms of things that they have done or previewed please do yourself a favor and stop reading these posts.
IF there were logical, in-game reasons that Mr. Kretzer, myself, Dan, and Rhee could see for these supposedly in-game results, we wouldn't be cranky, we wouldn't be angry, and we wouldn't be overly dramatic.
But because there's simply no justification for these types of things no matter what Richard Baker may tell you, because we've already heard the OOG justification for it, and it's garbage, yes, we're angry and we're overly dramatic, because there's no way to be anything else.
Basically, you can tell us we're overreacting, but the point is, Wizards overreacted in the first place, and now we have Forgotten Realms: The Dumbing Down.
As noobs they are completely clueless. Well, we know who the knights of the post - to borrow a planescape-term- are in this scenario who guide the clueless into the wrong alley... But really, I think it's not the newbies who are doing anything wrong. Hell, when I was a young impressionable noob I too tended to buy ad&d products that I didn't really need to play my char because of the illustrations of scantily clad elven females the products contained and didnt really give a fig about all the rules-stuff...
...though I did pretend to care for all aspects of the rules and the campaign setting and over the time I didn't need to pretend anymore. The morale is of course,it doesn't even matter if the system is dumb or not, or the world got hundreds or only a handful of gods as long as you hire capable artists!OK, guys, what are we going to do about the whole mess, the Forgotten Realms: the Dumbing Down, as msatran put it so well? Any ideas, except spamming the forums in an attempt to finally wear them wizards down so that they reverse the bad things they already did?
Since then we've had so many suppliments, novels and expansions that just about ever part of the realms is filled for us.
I'm still waiting for Lantan (and numerous others)...but I was told by one of the designers that they won't be doing anything with my beloved Lantan in the foreseeable future
Prolly yet another City of Splendor sourcebook...
-I'm not. It's getting to the point, now, where serious and acual academic and scholarly discussion on the intracacies of the setting are being stifled. In other words (my own), "it's getting friggin' annoying that everyone's posting about this stuff, and not relevant stuff".
Have you noticed my semi-absence lately?
Well, at least there's a bright side. I'm a sick sick person with an exceptionally deranged sense of humor, and lately I've been doing nothing but laughing:D
No I don't speak for everyone here...are you saying I have multiple acounts? Also what 'laments' from me have you read? I have given critism to what they have done...that is all.
No, I meant all the 'critics' here. Sorry about the confusion.
And nor should you judge material before you see it. Though we are judging material we have seen. Or have previewed for us by WotC. What we can't give our honest opinion on this stuff?
I would not care if you would. But in this very thread three users said that the new FRCS will be bad. Or worse than the 3e one. That's pure rubbish, because they do not know anything about it.
Anyway if it somehow hurts you reading these critisms of things that they have done or previewed please do yourself a favor and stop reading these posts.
How could I? They are all over the place. As LK said: many here are not argueing about anything relevant, because "we don' know nuffin' yet".
And then I must read an irrational rant from Razz here who seems to think that everyone who does not agree to his position is an accomplice to destroying the Realms, and who completes his statement with a conspiracy hypothesis.
It boils down to "If you're not with us, you're against us." That is an extremly stupid point of view.
First off, I accept that there is going to be some change in the Forgotten Realms universe. Firstly, because this is an ongoing storyline, but secondly, because if things were completely static and never changed, there really wouldn't be a lot to write new books about. Change is necessary, and some change is good - but it is a matter of degree.
I liked the Time of Troubles, on the whole. It had good and bad sides, but such is life. The important thing was, the overall flavor of the Forgotten Realms as a world and as a campaign setting remained unchanged. My increasing worry, from everything I've read here, and heard elsewhere, is that the 4th Edition changes will result in a campaign setting that is not the Forgotten Realms that I know and love.
I have experienced this once before, with the Dragonlance setting. I used to enjoy Dragonlance a great deal, and collected all of the supplements, and read all of the novels, until the point that Dragons of Summer Flame came out. It was at this point that the changes made became too drastic for me to accept - the world that I knew had been altered beyond the point that I wanted to continue playing in it. To this day, I have not purchased another Dragonlance product - not out of petulance or spite, but simply out of lack of interest.
I have been an avid Forgotten Realms fan since the days of the First Edition AD&D grey FR boxed set, which I still own. I still own the 2nd Editon "Forgotten Realms Adventures" Hardcover, and have played through nearly every computer game. I've purchased everything released for 3rd/3.5 edition Forgotten Realms, and would probably own a lot more 2nd edition books had I not been trying to save and pay for college at some point in there.
Thus far, many of the recent changes have not bothered me too much, including those such as the battles within the Drow Pantheon, or that with Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun, or the events of the Last Mythal trilogy. These events, while momentous, seemed perfectly in keeping with the feel of the Forgotten Realms to me. However, the Realms of 1374-75 DR are still not that different, at a rough glance, from those of 1355 DR. Major nations are still the same, major religions are mostly the same, et cetera... Upheavals have occured, but there has been no grand cataclysm or apocalypse.
However, the notion of killing off Mystra, followed by the deaths of a multitude of other gods, combined with an apocalyptic level plague that presumably shifts the Realms to a world that looks vastly different than the one that exists now is something that I personally believe is very unnecessary, and will change the tenor of the setting into something that I was not looking for in the Forgotten Realms. This ultimate notion of altering the Realms in such a massive way does not sit well with me at all.
Didn't read any posts past this one. I didn't need too.
I have collected, read, and played FR for awhile now (from 2e until now) and it is sad that WotC doesn't want my money anymore, and that is what all of this drastic change represents. Me not buying any of there products anymore.
There is to many changes, it doesn't feel like FR anymore.
The comparison to DL is spot on. Although I collected some of the stuff, it was just DL in name.
When 4e comes out, WotC will not be getting anymore of my money. It is bad enough what happened with 3.0 and 3.5 (having to buy everything again) an odd number of years ago....this is the last straw.
If the changes hadn't been so drastic, i probably would have given it a go. At least I would have baught the players hand book and dungeon masters guide.
I guess I can say it will be good for my wallet. Save me a good chunk of change, a GOOD chunk of change.
I guess I will still have the novels, maybe....I don't know. I really don't like support WotC in anyway shape or form, so I will have to deside when the time comes.
I was referring to sayings like this:
Followed by this quote from me:
The Realms are already dead to me now - the new FRCG will just be the funeral.
What are you taking exception to here?
The first part is FACT, the second conjecture based on the facts.
The final line of the GHotR -
"Sages in centuries to come mark the Weave's destruction in the year of the Blue Fire as the end of the old world, and the terrible beginning of the new."
Am I missing the REAL last page of my copy, where it says "JUST KIDDING!" or "APRIL FOOLS!" ?
The designers have REPEATEDLY referred to the FR coming out in Aug. as a NEW setting - NOT an updated one. They have ALL called it 'NEW'! - in various blogs and threads.
Call us naysayers, doomspeakers, or just HATERS, but at the end of the day, we are the REALISTS.
If Kraco recalls your kid's crib because they say it is defective and could hurt him, do you believe them, or do you stick your baby in it anyway because maybe they're just pulling everyone's leg?
Believe what you want, but the FR we KNEW is gone, and they have as much as said so. What will be released next year will be the 'new and improved' FR, and they have already told us that many of us will HATE the changes.
I may play in a fantasy world, but some of you appear to be living in one.
Good luck with that.
-I'm not. It's getting to the point, now, where serious and acual academic and scholarly discussion on the intracacies of the setting are being stifled. In other words (my own), "it's getting friggin' annoying that everyone's posting about this stuff, and not relevant stuff".
This is why my forums activity has gone from 15-20 post a day to 2-3 a day, if I bother to post at all. I can't help getting sucked into these silly arguments, and it's hard to feel enthused about a setting that may not exist in any recognizable form a year from now.
I would love to go back to contributing to the several projects I'm still comitted to, but right now it's hard to focus on whats important.
The Question:
Knowing that you are writing 50,000 word for the 4th Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, do you think that it will still be a place that the Realms grognards want to play (and DM)?
The Answer:
Hi. To HawkinstheDM, re grognards: if I can do anything at all about it (and I can), the answer to this is emphatically: YES.
'Twon't be the same, but it WILL be worth "living" and adventuring in. Promise.
Have you noticed my semi-absence lately?
-Hmm...What are we up to?
This is why my forums activity has gone from 15-20 post a day to 2-3 a day, if I bother to post at all. I can't help getting sucked into these silly arguments, and it's hard to feel enthused about a setting that may not exist in any recognizable form a year from now.
I would love to go back to contributing to the several projects I'm still comitted to, but right now it's hard to focus on whats important
-Ah. I just figured that you were too good for us now.
How could I? They are all over the place. As LK said: many here are not argueing about anything relevant, because "we don' know nuffin' yet".
-That's not exactly what I meant. We know plenty. I'm just annoyed at the quantity of threads on this topic (pro or con 4e?), and the amount of energy being devoted to them. Instead of channeling all of that energy into combating or promoting 4e- all of which is futile, anyway- we could have been channeling all of that energy into useful things, like debating Realmslore, or working on one of the multiple projects spanning these boards, such as Elves of Faerûn, or the Kara-Tur Red-Dux.
Noobs/Newbs: Most fall into this category. They've either recently played D&D, own very few D&D books, haven't digested so much tradition and lore, and/or play a lot of MMORPGs, most likely World of Warcraft. They could care less about us "veterans" that want to keep the game in its roots, and they really don't care how WotC changes the game as long as they can hack apart some trolls in any edition. This group is the main killer of D&D.
WoW, check. Mm-hm, that's me.
Indecisive: These are the folks who are next on the list of killing our favorite pastime as gamers. It's also the type of people that can't get Congress to do anything or vote for the right President of the USA. They have this "wait and see" attitude, as if they don't have any power to change what they don't like is coming in 4E. They also have nothing better to contribute other than "You don't know what is happening, wait and see. It could be the best edition ever." (um, that's what they said with 3E...) when we do know what is happening. It's obvious. These people are, sometimes, also in denial.
I couldn't vote for any President of the USA, so this also describes me.
Optimists: I hate these types. They see all change as good change no matter what. These are the ones that say 4E will be better, wait and see. I think they're either on some "happy pills" or in serious denial.
Wait and see. Yup, me again.
The Flock: Ah, these are the ones who're few in number but cause a lot of damage. This group simply doesn't see any wrong with WotC. They believe all they do is just and infallible. They believe everything is being changed for the better no matter what. Halflings could turn into half-duck creatures and beholders could be just one floating eyeball and red dragons could turn into purple dragons, yet these folk still believe WotC is doing it for the better of all gamers and D&D will be better than ever.....I actually pity this group more than finding myself angry.
Well... I could call those floating eyeball things with tentacles that they have in WoW beholders. That being the case, me.
Incognito: Rare, but it happens, you have WotC employees posing as normal consumers to promote their product. It's happened here before, it's happened on Wikipedia, so I will not put this behind them.
I'm not an employee, but I do have my name included in a web article, that should count. Hooray!
So, Razzy, what do I win for being in all categories?
So, Razzy, what do I win for being in all categories?
-A 'Get out of Death' Free Card, since it seems that 4e will be culling the Gnomes.
No, I meant all the 'critics' here. Sorry about the confusion.
Not a problem.
I would not care if you would. But in this very thread three users said that the new FRCS will be bad. Or worse than the 3e one. That's pure rubbish, because they do not know anything about it.
Actualy we know alot about the FRCG that will be coming out...
1) It will reflect the fact the FR has just become the Living RPGA world. Which in my opinion is a bad thing.
2) It will be a Realms with less deities, less powerful good NPCs, less realism and more storylines, it be less then what it was.
3) It will yet again advance the timeline. Even if it is only a 10 year jump that makes it pretty much useless for people who run a ongoing game. I don't even want to think about a 100 year jump.
4) The Realms will no longer be D&D because the powers that be have decided that Demon and Devils had change, because elves needed to change so FR had the change with it.
5) It will be a world where the authors have taken over so that previous lore had to changes in the name of author fiat.
6)It will be a world of RSE and not logical growth where the changes are forced.
Now these changes for you might be perfect for you, but me and others they are exactly the opposite of what we want. So I am more then happy for you for getting what you want in the new Realms, I just wish it was done in way where more fans will be happy.
How could I? They are all over the place. As LK said: many here are not argueing about anything relevant, because "we don' know nuffin' yet".
Here is a hint aviod reading threads titled "Thank you for destroying the Realms".
And then I must read an irrational rant from Razz here who seems to think that everyone who does not agree to his position is an accomplice to destroying the Realms, and who completes his statement with a conspiracy hypothesis.
It boils down to "If you're not with us, you're against us." That is an extremly stupid point of view.
Why must you? I personaly skimmed Razz's comments in the past and know that they are pretty much ignorable. So can't you do the same?
I think the funniest thing here is that people have started whinning about the people who critizing the changes as 'whinners'.
I suppose you could shove me in the noob category, I got interested in the Realms through Neverwinter Nights 1, and have no interest in the traditional D&D gaming, I only like the video game versions.
I do find it kind of sad though, I liked the setting because of the diverse range of deities and the concept of the Weave was unique and interesting, but ah well what can ya do. I think killing so many gods is the biggest mistake though but I don't think my opinion matters much.
I really don't think they care about their old audience anymore, because to be honest most of the long time gamers will probably grudgingly accept the changes and end up buying 4E anyway.
I think this is where they are making a mistake. Many people critized 3.x and said they wouldn't convert, but people eventualy did because it was just really a new mechanics that was still based on D&D. They also didn't just rewrite the flavors of things. Now they have...I think the backlash from this will mean people won't convert.
I'm not a hopeless optimist. I like some of the changes, but mostly I think we lack sufficient information.
We could wait-and-see what global warming will really be like, but it will be too late to fix it then.
The evidence is here, the trends are obvious.
Of course, we can't do much about 4e FR ourselves, apart from the time-honoured tactic of complaining about it. Hey, it worked for Eberron.
Of course, we can't do much about 4e FR ourselves, apart from the time-honoured tactic of complaining about it. Hey, it worked for Eberron.
The thing is, the 4e Eberron book won't be out until 2009 - they've yet to start the proper planning for the thing. The 4e FR book is in the works right now, and judging by designer comments, they've pretty much decided to stick to the course they've been planning (about 2 years now?).
And gnomes are still in 4e - in the MM. And besides, who'd notice if gnomes disappeared from Faerûn anyway? :P
it makes me irrationally happy that Realmers may be getting screwed over by 'The Company'.
Previously i have never even looked at the Realms section of the boards ,
because i have been playing/running Eberron.
This is not to say that i am a Realms-hater , because back in 2nd Ed days
i used to run games using the setting.
What makes me happy about the doom & gloom is thinking
how much the Realmers who ruined my enjoyment 20+ years ago are suffering.
These are the people who caused me never to buy a single Realms-related novel.
I have to admit to never having liked Ed Greenwoods style of writing also.
(OMG! Burn the Heretic!) :D
It did not help that a particular section of the local gaming community ,
who were into a kind of low-level B&D/S&M lifestyle ,
thought Ed was the bestest person evah!
(I know he isn't John Norman by any means , or at least i hope so)
Starting up again with 3.0 & 3.5 , i happily purchased Realms sourcebooks to run games.
I told any players who had read the novels that i would stick to Canon , as given in said sourcebooks ,
but would otherwise not spend years learning Realmslore.
12 months later i was introduced to Eberron , and never looked back.
One of the young gamers at our club was starting a FR campaign
and because he had limited finance , i gave him all the sourcebooks i had for FR ,
so he and his players could have as much enjoyment playing as i had always had.
There is one bright point about reading the complaints in threads like this ,
it makes me irrationally happy that Realmers may be getting screwed over by 'The Company'.
Previously i have never even looked at the Realms section of the boards ,
because i have been playing/running Eberron.
This is not to say that i am a Realms-hater , because back in 2nd Ed days
i used to run games using the setting.
What makes me happy about the doom & gloom is thinking
how much the Realmers who ruined my enjoyment 20+ years ago are suffering.
These are the people who caused me never to buy a single Realms-related novel.
I have to admit to never having liked Ed Greenwoods style of writing also.
(OMG! Burn the Heretic!) :D
It did not help that a particular section of the local gaming community ,
who were into a kind of low-level B&D/S&M lifestyle ,
thought Ed was the bestest person evah!
(I know he isn't John Norman by any means , or at least i hope so)
Starting up again with 3.0 & 3.5 , i happily purchased Realms sourcebooks to run games.
I told any players who had read the novels that i would stick to Canon , as given in said sourcebooks ,
but would otherwise not spend years learning Realmslore.
12 months later i was introduced to Eberron , and never looked back.
One of the young gamers at our club was starting a FR campaign
and because he had limited finance , i gave him all the sourcebooks i had for FR ,
so he and his players could have as much enjoyment playing as i had always had.
-I fail to see the point of this post. You could at least explain how 'Realmers' ruined your enjoyment of the game (presumably).
2) It will be a Realms with less deities, less powerful good NPCs, less realism and more storylines, it be less then what it was.
***********************************************
6)It will be a world of RSE and not logical growth where the changes are forced.
John, I'm going to have to call BS on this. Both of these things can be said about the method of the changes (i.e. spellplague, deicide, etc.), but we don't actually know enough about the final product yet to say either of these. How do you know that the new Realms will have less Realism? Because of the GHotR? That only describes the "end of the old world." It doesn't really delve into the "new world." Also just because it took an RSE to change things, doesn't mean that the growth of the new world from the wreckage of the old will not be based upon logical growth. Remember the Time of Troubles? That wasn't really logical, but they managed to produce many logical progressions since then (and some that weren't). This is the reason why I say, yes complain away. Many of the changes are ridiculous, poorly conceived, poorly executed, and just poor, this however does not tell us what the end result will be. It might just be that there are 3 things that you don't let people see you make. Sausage, laws, and new campaign settings. Or you could be right and we might as well start playing WoW if we plan on playing 4e FR. However, these are things we do not yet know. I'm not indecisive, I simply am drawing a line at what we know so far, and what we don't.
I was not a total newbie to gaming , just never played D&D before.
The main D&D group ran a Forgotten Realms campaign.
Basically , the DM and the players were totally intolerant of someone who had no rules knowledge.
"Come back when you have read the books" sort of thing.
There were a couple of other encounters with home-based campaigns
that were completely dominated by either the NPCs or DM-pet players.
Back at the Games Club , after having gotten some D&D experience elsewhere ,
i started my own campaign , using FR product that i had purchased.
The established group then tried to tell me how i should be running the game.
When i refused , they tried to blacklist me from the club.
(the club constitution did not allow this however)
It was this kind of thing and the basic unfriendliness that caused my Realmer prejudice.
That all the persons who run/play FR campaigns are not like this , i intellectually understand.
The young gamer who was treated like dirt emotionally does not.
The Dom/Sub group that also ran an FR campaign ,
in which sluttitude was taken to new extremes as "roleplaying" were also hideously vile.
Their main goal otherwise , seemed to be to get as many personally signed Ed Greenwood books as possible.
As a new player at a local games club , i was wanting to play some Dungeons & Dragons.
I was not a total newbie to gaming , just never played D&D before.
The main D&D group ran a Forgotten Realms campaign.
Basically , the DM and the players were totally intolerant of someone who had no rules knowledge.
"Come back when you have read the books" sort of thing.
There were a couple of other encounters with home-based campaigns
that were completely dominated by either the NPCs or DM-pet players.
Back at the Games Club , after having gotten some D&D experience elsewhere ,
i started my own campaign , using FR product that i had purchased.
The established group then tried to tell me how i should be running the game.
When i refused , they tried to blacklist me from the club.
(the club constitution did not allow this however)
It was this kind of thing and the basic unfriendliness that caused my Realmer prejudice.
That all the persons who run/play FR campaigns are not like this , i intellectually understand.
The young gamer who was treated like dirt emotionally does not.
The Dom/Sub group that also ran an FR campaign ,
in which sluttitude was taken to new extremes as "roleplaying" were also hideously vile.
Their main goal otherwise , seemed to be to get as many personally signed Ed Greenwood books as possible.
-Sounds...rough.
As LK said: many here are not argueing about anything relevant, because "we don' know nuffin' yet".
Hey! Don't go paraphrasing out of context my secular third without his consent!:P Not as if I actually cared:P
-Hmm...What are we up to?
Something fun....something interesting....and something that will get me arrested and found guilty....
I'll be in the chair if anyone want's me
The established group then tried to tell me how i should be running the game.
When i refused , they tried to blacklist me from the club.
(the club constitution did not allow this however)
The moment you discovered it was a club with a constitution you should have ran, as far as possible....in my gaming experience, those are the people that drive you home after a wonderful night of gaming, then won't let you out of the car......
John, I'm going to have to call BS on this. Both of these things can be said about the method of the changes (i.e. spellplague, deicide, etc.), but we don't actually know enough about the final product yet to say either of these. How do you know that the new Realms will have less Realism? Because of the GHotR? That only describes the "end of the old world." It doesn't really delve into the "new world." Also just because it took an RSE to change things, doesn't mean that the growth of the new world from the wreckage of the old will not be based upon logical growth. Remember the Time of Troubles? That wasn't really logical, but they managed to produce many logical progressions since then (and some that weren't). This is the reason why I say, yes complain away. Many of the changes are ridiculous, poorly conceived, poorly executed, and just poor, this however does not tell us what the end result will be. It might just be that there are 3 things that you don't let people see you make. Sausage, laws, and new campaign settings. Or you could be right and we might as well start playing WoW if we plan on playing 4e FR. However, these are things we do not yet know. I'm not indecisive, I simply am drawing a line at what we know so far, and what we don't.
I'll agree those two points are assumptions based on what they have done in the past. Though as you said the changes are poorly made...I think it is a reasonable assumption to make that the final results will also be poor.
As a sidenote people should take more interest in how laws are made.
I agree on sausages.
And you are right this is a new campaign setting...and it is having a poor start.
As a new player at a local games club , i was wanting to play some Dungeons & Dragons.
I was not a total newbie to gaming , just never played D&D before.
The main D&D group ran a Forgotten Realms campaign.
Basically , the DM and the players were totally intolerant of someone who had no rules knowledge.
"Come back when you have read the books" sort of thing.
There were a couple of other encounters with home-based campaigns
that were completely dominated by either the NPCs or DM-pet players.
Back at the Games Club , after having gotten some D&D experience elsewhere ,
i started my own campaign , using FR product that i had purchased.
The established group then tried to tell me how i should be running the game.
When i refused , they tried to blacklist me from the club.
(the club constitution did not allow this however)
It was this kind of thing and the basic unfriendliness that caused my Realmer prejudice.
That all the persons who run/play FR campaigns are not like this , i intellectually understand.
The young gamer who was treated like dirt emotionally does not.
The Dom/Sub group that also ran an FR campaign ,
in which sluttitude was taken to new extremes as "roleplaying" were also hideously vile.
Their main goal otherwise , seemed to be to get as many personally signed Ed Greenwood books as possible.
I am sorry that you have had really bad experiences in regard to D&D and FR. If I was in charge of that club it would have been that group that got blacklisted...I dislike anyone who treats new players in such a fashion.
As for the dom/sub group all I'll have to say is people have different taste and styles. That group just didn't mesh with you.
I am glad you have find Ebberron though and hope you have many years of happy gaming.
As a sidenote people should take more interest in how laws are made.
You don't need to tell me. I almost wasted a degree on Political Science, or Public Policy.
Basically , the DM and the players were totally intolerant of someone who had no rules knowledge.
"Come back when you have read the books" sort of thing.
There were a couple of other encounters with home-based campaigns
that were completely dominated by either the NPCs or DM-pet players.
The problem here really isn't that they were playing in the Forgotten Realms, but rather, that these people are/were complete jerks.
The established group then tried to tell me how i should be running the game.
When i refused , they tried to blacklist me from the club.
(the club constitution did not allow this however)
It was this kind of thing and the basic unfriendliness that caused my Realmer prejudice.
Honestly, this sort of thing has nothing to do with the Forgotten Realms whatsoever. It's an elitist kind of attitude that you will find in among a minority of the players in pretty much any and every sort of fantasy gaming, where people of this sort try to hold their 'experience' and 'knowledge' as evidence of their superiority over the newbies. I've seen it in Dragonlance, Planescape, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and on into non-D&D settings like World of Darkness, Middle-Earth, Star Wars, Star Trek, and you can probably find some now for Eberron, Harry Potter, or World of Warcraft, and on and on...
The point is, it has nothing to do with these settings, or games associated with them. Some people are just jerks. Don't play with them, and don't listen to them when they tell you you're 'wrong'. It's your game, and your Realms, not theirs. As long as your having fun, who cares what they think?
That all the persons who run/play FR campaigns are not like this , i intellectually understand.
The young gamer who was treated like dirt emotionally does not.
Does that make it fair, then, to gloat at those of us who had nothing to do with any of that, over the fact that we're upset because we feel the game setting we enjoy a great deal is being wrecked, just because those people happened to like it, too? I say this not to seem angry, but more out of curiousity, because a post such as your first one tends to provoke reactions of that sort.
Despite whatever your emotional reaction was back then, certainly you're capable of some sort of rational understanding that there are a lot of other people who are going to be affected, that are nothing like those you encountered.
Actualy we know alot about the FRCG that will be coming out...
1) It will reflect the fact the FR has just become the Living RPGA world. Which in my opinion is a bad thing.
I agree. But we don't know how this will affect the setting.
2) It will be a Realms with less deities, less powerful good NPCs, less realism and more storylines, it be less then what it was.
Less deities and less powerful NPCs are a good thing in my book. Less realism is BS, I have to agree with Reneschat here. FR was never a very realistic setting, and I don't see how this will change. More storylines are almost impossible to pull of, because the sheer amount of different existing and potential storylines was huge even in 2ed. And it is something I like the setting for.
3) It will yet again advance the timeline. Even if it is only a 10 year jump that makes it pretty much useless for people who run a ongoing game. I don't even want to think about a 100 year jump.
Why is it useless? You have 10 years or more to adapt. It's just something to get accustomed to.
4) The Realms will no longer be D&D because the powers that be have decided that Demon and Devils had change, because elves needed to change so FR had the change with it.
I don't see the reasoning here. D&D changes, so if FR gets along, it's not D&D anymore?
5) It will be a world where the authors have taken over so that previous lore had to changes in the name of author fiat.
The (novel) authors have taken over a long time ago. So that's not something new.
6)It will be a world of RSE and not logical growth where the changes are forced.
It's been like that since the ToT. So it's nothing new, again.
You don't need to tell me. I almost wasted a degree on Political Science, or Public Policy.
I don't see how you can "waste" a degree on Political Science...
And gnomes are still in 4e - in the MM.
Even if they don't make it to 4E PH, there's no telling they wouldn't be a player race in the upcoming 4E FRCS either. I don't really mind that WotC obviously considers gnomes to be too cool to be in PH just like drow, but it would be an extra selling point for the new FR book to give full PC treatment to genasi, drow, and gnomes for example. Besides, it's practically certain that races will start getting talent trees at some point, and it seems unlikely that FRCS wouldn't include some for all major races in that setting.
And besides, who'd notice if gnomes disappeared from Faerûn anyway? :P
Oh, they will notice once they start having weekly hurricanes sweeping across every nation, and floods and famine and frogs raining down from the sky. Mark my words! You can't even begin to comprehend the importance of gnomes in the world!
Think it was a coincidence that gnomes left Netheril before its fall?
What makes me happy about the doom & gloom is thinking
how much the Realmers who ruined my enjoyment 20+ years ago are suffering.
You've nursed a grudge for 20+ years? Over a game? That's pretty absurd. How did anyone here "ruin" your enjoyment way back then? I was 6 years old at the time (if not younger) and didn't even know what the heck D&D was.
These changes are unbelievable. They literally break the suspension. And so people are no longer caring about the tale of the Realms.
Re: Realism--I do think realism, in fantasy settings, is somewhat overrated. So whether or not the upcoming changes are "realistic" is a moot point to me.
Realism for a game is from it's point of view. A more generic word would be consistency.
Realism for a game is from it's point of view. A more generic word would be consistency.
I agree with that.
My point is that what's "realistic" may not be enjoyable (I agree with what BadCatMan said, too).
Something fun....something interesting....and something that will get me arrested and found guilty....
I'll be in the chair if anyone want's me
-Again? Should I start laying the contingencies now, or later?
You don't need to tell me. I almost wasted a degree on Political Science, or Public Policy.
-I'm almost there. One semester left.
The problem is, we don't buy what's in the sourcebooks because no one believes that this crap could happen.
-Ah. I just figured that you were too good for us now.
NEVER!!!
It's this board that rekindled my love for the Realms, and got me to become much more knowledgable about it's history and people. I may be discouraged for the moment, but you guys aren't going to get rid of me THAT easily. ;)
-Instead of channeling all of that energy into combating or promoting 4e- all of which is futile, anyway- we could have been channeling all of that energy into useful things, like debating Realmslore, or working on one of the multiple projects spanning these boards, such as Elves of Faerûn, or the Kara-Tur Red-Dux.
Exactly MY point, as well.
I enjoyed coming here and creating new lore and helping folks with their campaigns; now I find it impossible to open up PS and work on my maps.
The 4e discussions should be limited to 1-2 threads - currently nearly every one becomes caustic verbal vitriol that turns people AWAY from the setting - exactly what we DON'T want to happen.
There is one bright point about reading the complaints in threads like this, it makes me irrationally happy that Realmers may be getting screwed over by 'The Company'.
So because YOU had a bad experience with the Realms, you want the rest of us to have one as well?
That is petty and vindictive, and I would rather think better of someone intelligent enough to play P&P RPGs. The majority of the community did nothing to you, and I'm sorry you feel this way.
I agree. But we don't know how this will affect the setting.
History...RPGA completely killed Greyhawk. Also if you agree this a bad thing then you must have some concerns about it.
Less deities and less powerful NPCs are a good thing in my book. Less realism is BS, I have to agree with Reneschat here. FR was never a very realistic setting, and I don't see how this will change. More storylines are almost impossible to pull of, because the sheer amount of different existing and potential storylines was huge even in 2ed. And it is something I like the setting for.
On less deities and and powerful good NPCs(Please note alot if not all of the powerful evil NPCs are staying) that is in your book...in my it takes away from the feeling of realism because they provided history and depth. Also I have to disagree that it is impossible to pull of anything new because of a huge amount existing and potential storylines as potential storylines don't have to be explored if you choose not to.
Why is it useless? You have 10 years or more to adapt. It's just something to get accustomed to.
For a ongoing game it is why buy the new books since it is so well into the future...I mean as I said smaller time jumps are better since there would be less to adapy to and PCs can have a actualy effect.
I don't see the reasoning here. D&D changes, so if FR gets along, it's not D&D anymore?
Um D&D favor in my opinion doesn't need to change...also why does a campaign world need to mirror the base flavor of D&D...I mean even FR never followed the base flavor of D&D totaly before so why does it need to now?
The (novel) authors have taken over a long time ago. So that's not something new.
It's been like that since the ToT. So it's nothing new, again.
Um I did say my growing concern for the New FR was based in things that have had happen. The fact that they were ignorable before doesn't changes the fact they won't be now. I mean Mystra and the Weave are gone that is a big change that can't be ignored. The demons and devils get rewriten can't be ignored...the cosomolgy meh probably can be as I ignored the tree. The sundering of the elven race can't be ignored. The Death of certain gods(and yes some of them are on the confirmed dead list) can't just be ignored.
You've nursed a grudge for 20+ years? Over a game? That's pretty absurd. How did anyone here "ruin" your enjoyment way back then? I was 6 years old at the time (if not younger) and didn't even know what the heck D&D was.
It would be sad If it wasn't that funny. I can imagine the whloe thing now....:raincloud "..
freaking FR guys...
....I HATE THEM ALL"Me personally LOVE to teach D&D Back home (where is almost unheard of due to the language barrier ), I wuold go to the game store and get four people that have never played and teach them and play with my "real" group saturdays...
History...RPGA completely killed Greyhawk. Also if you agree this a bad thing then you must have some concerns about it.
I don't think the RPGA is responsible. It was just a try to ressurect the setting.
On less deities and and powerful good NPCs(Please note alot if not all of the powerful evil NPCs are staying) that is in your book...in my it takes away from the feeling of realism because they provided history and depth. Also I have to disagree that it is impossible to pull of anything new because of a huge amount existing and potential storylines as potential storylines don't have to be explored if you choose not to.
No. You don't have to explore them. But they are there, if you want.
As for the NPCs: We don't know yet if there will be deaths among the 'evil'* ones. Look at the Thayvian civil war. Could be the Tam bites it for real this time, for example.
For a ongoing game it is why buy the new books since it is so well into the future...I mean as I said smaller time jumps are better since there would be less to adapy to and PCs can have a actualy effect.
Well, we have the Grand History. It's the DM's call to flesh out the 10 years. And that is another good thing. You're less dependable on what the designers thought up. They only provided a rough outline for what happens, as it should be.
Um D&D favor in my opinion doesn't need to change...also why does a campaign world need to mirror the base flavor of D&D...I mean even FR never followed the base flavor of D&D totaly before so why does it need to now?
I'm not really sure what you mean...
Um I did say my growing concern for the New FR was based in things that have had happen. The fact that they were ignorable before doesn't changes the fact they won't be now.
Why not? Sure, there were some big things happening, but that doesn't mean you can't change them.
NEVER!!!
It's this board that rekindled my love for the Realms, and got me to become much more knowledgable about it's history and people. I may be discouraged for the moment, but you guys aren't going to get rid of me THAT easily. ;)
-That makes me happy. I figured that, with you spending less and less time here, you were abandoning us for the 'Keep. I already had that happen to me with one friend- that had nothing to do with D&D or these Boards- and I figured it was happening to another friend. That's good, though.
This back-and-forth cr@p is getting tiring, and adds nothing positive to the CURRENT Realms. No one is going to change anyone's mind - I say we wait until next Aug. and make our verdict then. We will either vomit or be amazed; I hope it's the latter. ;)
-That's what I'm saying!
Exactly MY point, as well.
I enjoyed coming here and creating new lore and helping folks with their campaigns; now I find it impossible to open up PS and work on my maps.
The 4e discussions should be limited to 1-2 threads - currently nearly every one becomes caustic verbal vitriol that turns people AWAY from the setting - exactly what we DON'T want to happen.
-Let's pledge to not talk about 4e anymore! Well, not in this kind of context, anyway. Anyone else want to?
-Let's pledge to not talk about 4e anymore! Well, not in this kind of context, anyway. Anyone else want to?
Sure, why not. I can still divulge my propensity pertaining purposely pointless pseudo-paradigm posts preaching the power of the parallelly positives of PHP programming perversity, perchance?
-_-'
Me, I like what I've heard about Spellplague so far, and I'm not overtly attached to any of Mystra's chosen (attached enough to mourn their demise, but not enough to take the bullet for them, ya know?), and as for the pantheon, let's see what's left of it before we decry over-simplification--it may not be over-simple so much as simply simple, and it may not be all that simple at all. We know very little about Fourth Edition Forgotten Realms, so it's really quite premature to say that the Realms are dead or destroyed. "Thank you for destroying the Realms," indeed! Mystra hasn't even been killed off yet!
Sure, why not. I can still divulge my propensity pertaining purposely pointless pseudo-paradigm posts preaching the power of the parallelly positives of PHP programming perversity, perchance?
-So you say.
I don't see how you can "waste" a degree on Political Science...
It wasn't really teaching me much of anything I didn't already know, and you can't really use it to get a job doing anything, other than teaching government.
Sure, why not. I can still divulge my propensity pertaining purposely pointless pseudo-paradigm posts preaching the power of the parallelly positives of PHP programming perversity, perchance?
ASP.NET FTW :D
From what I've seen so far, all of this "The Realms are dead!" whining is thirty percent valid, eighty percent jump-the-gun doomsaying, and yes, I know that adds up to a hundred and ten percent...
Did you know that about 98% of all statistics are made up on the spot?
We know very little about Fourth Edition Forgotten Realms, so it's really quite premature to say that the Realms are dead or destroyed.
And your point is?
-So you say.
What I don't like
But yes, I don't think that the people who complain that Mystra and Helm's death were unnecessary are without merit. You know what? If they want to radically reduce the gods in the Realms then they should remove the gods that aren't part of the Realms. Ed Greenwood's pantheon is THE REALMS GODS and you know whose at the heart of it? Helm and Mystra.
I'm not against the downsizing of the deities of the Realms but they should do that by removing the Greyhawk Gods from the Campaign Setting and the Gods that belong to other campaign settings if they want to actually bother incorporating Kara-Tur and the other locations in the setting.
If they HAVE to remove deities, I think they should focus on the ones that won't be missed terribly by the majority of fans because they're underdeveloped. Velsharoon is a jobber for Myrkul and if they're going to get rid of a god, they should get rid of him despite the fact that I've gotten ample use out of Velsharoon by TRYING to make him not suck so much.
I am unhappy with the fact they've killed Helm and Mystra. Despite how cool I think Cyric is, I find it difficult to believe he can just walk up and kill the deity of magic (even if I refuse to get into the argument about stats and in her own Realm that is number-crunching for things that should never be crunched---i.e. Gods. I know that's tremendously strange from me who talks of defeating Gods but it's a stated fact in my campaign that any battle with a God is an instant-kill for the party unless they have a Maguffin or are fighting an avatar).
I am unhappy, also, with killing Vhaueraun because I have him as the origin of Mask in my games and Kiranshlee is a major villainess in my games because of "City of the Spider Queen" I also find their deaths to be pretty stupid. I could buy Quil killing Selvartem after an epic battle with Mystra and Elistrae's support but some no name Ranger?
no.Also, I dislike killing Khelben. Sylune, in her ghost form, was a major character in our games but her tragic death was something that made the Battle for Shadowdale awesome. But KHELBEN the Starter of 9/10ths of Waterdeep's plots is gone!? WHAT THE HELL!? Who in their right mind thought that was a good idea!?
It's like killing Ra's Al Ghul and replacing him with a previously unheard of daughter? AND HALASTAR!? He's the
lord of Undermountain! Who are we replacing him with? His super-hot unheard of apprentice!? Ugh.Alusair and Caladnei are major romances of my game and now they're suddenly middle aged or DEAD.
So, just as a note, I'm going to clear up my opinions here. I'm willing to give Richard Baker a chance and see what he has to do. However, I do have my own objections to his work and won't be incorporating a great deal of it. Or, more precisely, Helm and Mystra's deaths will last only as long as it takes for my party to ressurect them.
Xvim is alive in my games as well.
If they HAVE to remove deities, I think they should focus on the ones that won't be missed terribly by the majority of fans because they're underdeveloped.
Just because an aspect of the setting is underdeveloped doesn't mean no one cares about it, and it wouldn't be missed.
You aren't disagreeing with the FR team at all, there, since (going by their statements) they feel the same exact way you do.
I think, Mr.Phipps, that we probably agree on more then we disagree on.
Although I HATE Cyric.... :P
(I liked the mortal, I just hate the idiotic thing they turned him into, and now a mere pawn of Shar, and most likely she arranged events to cause his ascension in the first place.)
Although I HATE Cyric.... :P
(I liked the mortal, I just hate the idiotic thing they turned him into, and now a mere pawn of Shar, and most likely she arranged events to cause his ascension in the first place.)
I sure haven't seen how he is supposed to be the god of Intrigue. Also, from what is described in the Ervis Cale Trilogy, Mask is still involved in quite a bit on intrigue even though he no longer has the portfolio.
Alusair and Caladnei are major romances of my game and now they're suddenly middle aged or DEAD.
Alusair is pushing 40, you do realize that don't you? Caladnei, I have no idea of, but Alusair is around 40-41 by now, if that's not middle aged, I dunno what your definition of middle aged is.
If they do skip 100 years, we don't get to see "the next generation" of heroes taking their places. We get to see the generation after that.
Just because an aspect of the setting is underdeveloped doesn't mean no one cares about it, and it wouldn't be missed.
You aren't disagreeing with the FR team at all, there, since (going by their statements) they feel the same exact way you do.
My opinions are distilled down.
Agree
1. I think there are too many gods (Just say no to Greyhawk in the Realms!)
2. The Realms is way too overpowered.
Disagree
1. Mystra dying
2. Khelben dying
3. Kiranshlee dying
4. Vhaeraun dying
5. Helm dying
6. Any other Chosen dying
7. Halastar dying
Heya,
Alusair is pushing 40, you do realize that don't you? Caladnei, I have no idea of, but Alusair is around 40-41 by now, if that's not middle aged, I dunno what your definition of middle aged is.
Indeed, Alusair is already middle-aged, not that there's anything wrong with that. Caladnei probably isn't *that* young, either.
And Charles, you agree with the FR design team on the matter I spoke of ("if something is underdeveloped, it must not be popular, so it can be changed or deleted and no one will care").
And Charles, you agree with the FR design team on the matter I spoke of ("if something is underdeveloped, it must not be popular, so it can be changed or deleted and no one will care").
My opinion is better phrased as "If they HAVE to get rid of something, dump the stuff that's not so detailed."
What I would LIKE to get out of the Realms is the non-Ed Greenwood stuff. Though I've become very fond of Kara-Tur and the Horde, I would personally like to see a much more Greenwood purist view of the Realms. The changes would be radical enough from the Greybox to be quite good.
And middle aged is slightly older for me, my parents had me when they were 40.
My opinion is better phrased as "If they HAVE to get rid of something, dump the stuff that's not so detailed."
I don't see why they should, though. Lack of detail is a boon when DMs want to develop an area by themselves.
I don't see why they should, though. Lack of detail is a boon when DMs want to develop an area by themselves.
If I wanted to insert Ravenloft in the middle of Toril, I could too. I have absolute control over the Realms, so "lack of detail" doesn't strike me as a boon anyway.
All I have to do is say to my players "BTW, Mulhorandi is actually replaced with Barovia."
I don't see why they should, though. Lack of detail is a boon when DMs want to develop an area by themselves.
It could also be a massive hinderence. An area that has some development, but no details, is difficult to run. Sure, the DM can make it up as he wants...but what happens afterwards when TSR/WotC produces a sourcebook for that region? You're idea of the region is rammed up your butt, and it's barbed wire to boot.
I had that exact same problem with the Border Kingdoms. Lack of detail. The vast majority of lore in Powers of Faerun is completely and utterly useless to me, given that I (as a player) came from there (in the waning years of 2e). Over several sessions I had semi-conquered it. My DM simply couldn't factor in anything relavent, due to the lack of detail. As a DM, I have my old character's empire to factor in. Frankly, the lack of detail is what actually makes me shun away from certain FR regions (that I would love to play!). I utterly hate Waterdeep because it's gotten it's own bloody sourcebook in every edition. I don't want Waterdeep. I have three already, and not enough has changed to warrant the previous sourcebook, yet another bloody sourcebook dedicated to a dirty, politically stupid, intrigued, coniving piece of crap city that shouldn't have existed after 1e. I want, I dunno know....Evermeet...Lantan...Raumathyr...you know, the typical regions that have gotten nothing or next to crap since 1e....I friggen hate the same Ao-damned sourcebooks with nothing NEW except time line updates or edition dependent rules upgrades.
And Charles, you agree with the FR design team on the matter I spoke of ("if something is underdeveloped, it must not be popular, so it can be changed or deleted and no one will care").
Maybe it's more like, "If something is underdeveloped, we should develop it, possibly changing it, so that it will become more popular."
My opinion is better phrased as "If they HAVE to get rid of something, dump the stuff that's not so detailed."
What I would LIKE to get out of the Realms is the non-Ed Greenwood stuff. Though I've become very fond of Kara-Tur and the Horde, I would personally like to see a much more Greenwood purist view of the Realms. The changes would be radical enough from the Greybox to be quite good.
And middle aged is slightly older for me, my parents had me when they were 40.
So that means Cyric, Finder, Midnight as Mystra, Kevelmore are gone as ToT was nothing to do with Ed's view on relgion in the Realms. Oh and ToT never happened...Ao doesn't exist...lots of gods continue to exist...
The Weave and the choosen are still there.
You sure you want that?
So that means Cyric, Finder, Midnight as Mystra, Kevelmore are gone as ToT was nothing to do with Ed's view on relgion in the Realms. Oh and ToT never happened...Ao doesn't exist...lots of gods continue to exist...
The Weave and the choosen are still there.
You sure you want that?
I'm not so stupid to say that nothing decent (or even GREAT) has been contributed in the past 30 odd years by everyone working feverishly. I love Finder, Everis Cale, the Selune's Bar heroes, The Realmsmaster Crew, Drizzt Do'Urden, Alias, Dragonsbait, and the list goes on and on. However, I think we've definitely lost some consistency post Greybox.
Overall, while I love the TOT as a whole, I tend to think a lot of the stuff afterwards shows a lack of direction. More Greenwood, perhaps 90% as opposed to 60% would be much better. 3E brought us back from like 20%.
FYI- I love the Chosen, I just think they should be powered down to Greenwood levels.
I'm not so stupid to say that nothing decent (or even GREAT) has been contributed in the past 30 odd years by everyone working feverishly. I love Finder, Everis Cale, the Selune's Bar heroes, The Realmsmaster Crew, Drizzt Do'Urden, Alias, Dragonsbait, and the list goes on and on. However, I think we've definitely lost some consistency post Greybox.
Overall, while I love the TOT as a whole, I tend to think a lot of the stuff afterwards shows a lack of direction. More Greenwood, perhaps 90% as opposed to 60% would be much better. 3E brought us back from like 20%.
FYI- I love the Chosen, I just think they should be powered down to Greenwood levels.
Personaly I am not a Greenwood purist. While I like many of the things that he does...I also liked the earlier contribrutions of designers.
The problem is(and this did start with the ToT) people just now want to seem to leave their marks on the Realms instaed of working witrh in the framework. And these new changes are just more of the same.
Also just a side note level don't corrospond between edition all that well....they really are the same powerlevel since 1st edition.
And middle aged is slightly older for me, my parents had me when they were 40.
Well for everyone else, Middle Age starts at 40. ;)
1066-1204-Middle Middle Ages
And 1204-1492-Late Middle Ages
Oh...wait...you guys don't want a history lesson, do you?
Well, for me, there were three periods of Middle Ages, from about 535-1066 (Lower Middle Ages)
1066-1204-Middle Middle Ages
And 1204-1492-Late Middle Ages
Oh...wait...you guys don't want a history lesson, do you?
I didn't like Khelben dying, but it was a GOOD death. That's what I'm talking about - as long as explanations and storylines make SENSE, I will like it. I love all the old Greenwood stuff, probably because he was a STORYTELLER FIRST, and a DM second. However, plenty of designers that have come along and added to his masterpiece have made the setting better, overall, so I have no problem with fresh ideas either.
I personally didn't care for Mystra/Mytral 3.0, but I would prefer some sort of decent story to explain how certain parties were capable of what they did. I can come up with a few myself, so I know it's possible.
The Helm thing has me baffled.
I really dislike Helm, but his death seemed incredibly STUPID, IMHO. Here we have the deity that takes the place of the Judao-Christian God in terms of the Maztican affair, and also pretty much kept the ENTIRE PLANET'S gods in line during the ToT (probably thousands if you add in all the other pantheons), and he gets 'offed' almost as an afterthought?
Seriously, give us more credit then that. The 4e game might be aimed at 12 yr olds, but at least make it appeal to intelligent 12 yr olds.
Thats all I'm saying... I'll crawl back under my rock now.
HAIL THE DARK SUN!
Seriously, give us more credit then that. The 4e game might be aimed at 12 yr olds, but at least make it appeal to intelligent 12 yr olds.
That would make for a small customer base tho'. They simply have to leave out intelligence if they want a consumer base large enough to make a profit.
Wotc has been playing too much WoW recently.
DnD is a role playing game. WoW is not. Somebody should inform them.
FYI- I love the Chosen, I just think they should be powered down to Greenwood levels.
Your game, your levels. I think the level increase (in some) was due to the designers expecting more campaigns at higher levels, and trying to prevent important NPCs for being offed too easily. Their level is strictly indicative of their immense power; as iirc Greenwood said about Larloch, whatever level: "Just don't go there."
What is immense power of course depends on what the DM is okay with having.
FYI- I love the Chosen, I just think they should be powered down to Greenwood levels.
Your game, your levels - it's as simple as that. I think the level increase (in some) was due to the designers expecting more campaigns at higher levels, and trying to prevent important NPCs for being offed too easily. Their level is strictly indicative of their immense power; as iirc Greenwood said about Larloch, whatever level: "Just don't go there."
What is immense power, of course, depends on what the DM is okay with having. If that's level 10, okay. Still, for beings that have a spark of divine essence, as the chosen, or that have the skill to lead an organization including some insanely powerful - or just insane and powerful, which isn't much better - characters like Szass Tam, epic levels are only to be expected. They were included for a reason, and need not be limited to PCs only.
Better marketing, less quality, more profit.
Wotc has been playing too much WoW recently.
DnD is a role playing game. WoW is not. Somebody should inform them.
I think all these people saying that they're turning DnD into WoW need to pick up a 14 day trial for WoW and actually go play it.
DnD is not being turned into WoW... CRPGs (and MMORPGs) cannot and never have lived up to the promise of a Pencil and Paper RPG (sadly, not even on so-called RP designated servers).
Simplified rules does not mean the game is WoW.
(Oh, and in case there was any doubt: World of Warcraft the RPG... By White Wolf using the d20 rules. So yes, there is an RPG version of WoW.)
...found myself making comments regarding actual RPGs a lot, and how they were more flexible, better, etc. So I don't think people making such comments are inherently wrong.
Well, on the other hand the whole point of 4E is to make D&D more flexible, better, etc. than any of the previous editions.
(From a business point of view obviously it's supposed to make money, but generally speaking aiming faster-higher-stronger is a good place to start in making more money on the side too.)
Well, on the other hand the whole point of 4E is to make D&D more flexible, better, etc. than any of the previous editions.
That seems to be the stated goal of every new edition, though--well, at least the "better" part.
Really, what they're TRYING to do is make it more flexible without making it completely useless to print new books altogether. They have to keep adding/changing the mechanics, only to 'fix' it all by making it 'more flexible' in a new edition.
Less rules = More flexible, guys.
I think all these people saying that they're turning DnD into WoW need to pick up a 14 day trial for WoW and actually go play it.
I have THREE WoW accounts, so I think I know a little bit about the game. ;)
First, let me start by saying that storyline development is practically non-existant in MORPGs. I've played a couple of stand-alones that handled it decently (Arcanum, Fallout), with NPC reactions based on a menu of responses you could give to them. Unfortunetly, games that are good on the RPG end are usually lack-luster in the graphics dept. In order to sell games to kiddies, these days, it's all about the eye-candy. Just look at the bizarre S&M Grunge attire of the 3e Sorceror - they were trying out a new look and it bombed.
Second, you can get some of the P&P feel in a MORPG if you belong to a decent guild. Also, there are plenty of fun things players have 'invented' that occur outside of the normal game-playing, usually to the chagrin of the programmers. Figuring out how to crash the servers is a big favorite (everyone in Ironforge summon their mounts simultaneously, while all the Wizards cast Icestorm and the Warlocks cast meteror storm :D ), or 'kiting' in dragons from high-lev areas into cities, or just finding ways into places no one is supposed to be able to enter... and then there's 'pirate dancing', or 'Furbolg parties'. I've seen 60 people create lev 1 Gnomes and form a Raid Group, just to take on a lev 9 ELITE... and get their butts kicked. My point is, those things do not help you in the game at all, but they are FUN, and that is the point of a game, and almost all of those require the same amount of cooperation you find in a P&P RPG.
Third, and most importantly, is where MORPGs shine. The combat is intense and highly graphic, and moves quickly and requires a player to think on his feet and work with others (at least in Instances). THIS is the part I think WotC is trying to capture with their new rules - they already have MORPGs beat when it comes to RP. By making the miniatures rules mesh better with the core rules, we can have fast-paced and exciting combat that amounts to more then just a bunch of die rolls. If they pull it off, I looked forward to the new edition of the rules and embrace it with open arms.
I think the DI is a way of marrying all of the deep RP experience to the 'Glitz' of the video game, while also giving the players the option of finding groups when they might otherwise have trouble doing so. Its ambitious, and perhaps OVERLY so, but we will see. As a novice programmer and an avid gamer, I really doubt they have the budget to pull it off correctly, and it will probably be buggy as hell and fall flat. I know I could pull it off, but I'd also need a 100 million dollar budget (but OH... Hasbro would RULE the world
).I just hope they have the talent to at least make it work half-way decent.
bizarre S&M Grunge attire of the 3e Sorceror
Hot.
He should have been blond.
I mean, why aren't people saying that 4E will be exactly like Greek mythology, Medieval Europe, or Middle-Earth? There have been and still are things in D&D not only inspired but even directly copied from those sources, and those elements vastly outnumber anything remotely similar to something that originated from WoW that's getting translated to 4E.
And that's not even taking into account how most "WoW-isms" we know of are major improvements to the system that has sorely needed a complete overhaul for the last 30 years.
So there!
I'm just waiting to see how successful they will be with it.
Hot.
He should have been blond.
I go one and on on the subject... and THAT'S the ONLY thing you walked away with?
You have a one-track mind, Danny me lad. I just hope their aren't too many 'elongated objects' in physics to make you distracted. ;)
If they WERE, they'd just make a massive Forgotten Realms MMORPG instead of Stormreach one.
I mean, why aren't people saying that 4E will be exactly like Greek mythology, Medieval Europe, or Middle-Earth? There have been and still are things in D&D not only inspired but even directly copied from those sources, and those elements vastly outnumber anything remotely similar to something that originated from WoW that's getting translated to 4E.
Because they're not making it MORE like any of the above?
Did you know that about 98% of all statistics are made up on the spot?
Yar, and this be one such case. 'Twas but an illustration, lassie, and nothun' more. Don't be payin' that bit too much heed, it's just to show how things look from where I'm sittin' with me pint o' mead.
And your point is?
My point (and I do so hate having to repeat myself) is that you're jumping the gun when you say the pie tastes bad before you've even tasted the pie...
DB
Yar, and this be one such case. 'Twas but an illustration, lassie, and nothun' more. Don't be payin' that bit too much heed, it's just to show how things look from where I'm sittin' with me pint o' mead.
Fair enough.
My point (and I do so hate having to repeat myself) is that you're jumping the gun when you say the pie tastes bad before you've even tasted the pie...
I'll kind of go with what Dan said--the pie smells bad, and I got to try a few samples of it too, which I didn't like. It is unlikely I'll want to buy the pie now.
But seriously, the samples do not interest me. They will have to do a lot more to get me positively interested in the new Realms. Going with the analogy, they're practically going to have to make apple pie with oranges. I might settle for pears though, I'm pretty lenient. I might even go for apples, but they better be the best damn apples ever, preferably served by a legion of hot fantasy babes.
Well, we've learned some things about this pie - enough to know how likely it is that it'll appeal to our respective tastes. Let's say you don't like apples - then there's no chance in the world you'll be happy with an apple pie. You don't need to smell it to know that.
DB
That's a big part of the pie, tho'. Like, ninety percent of the apple pie is the apple. Of this pie, we know perhaps the ingredients of the crust, the cinnamon content, etc.... as for the fruit or whatever makes up the actual pie, we don't much know. For that, we need to see the next edition of FRCS, or some novel or other actually set during the 4E time period (and one that goes in-depth on the changes, rather than simply being set during that time).
I'll kind of go with what Dan said--the pie smells bad, and I got to try a few samples of it too, which I didn't like. It is unlikely I'll want to buy the pie now.
What samples do you speak of?
I don't have to smell the pie, taste the pie, or even see it. All I need to do is listen to it, slowly baking away in that infernal oven and all the mean things it puffs out behind my back when it thinks I'm not within earshot. I want to repeatedly stab it murderously with a sharpened fork until the apple goo and the flaky crust become unrecognizable from each other.
But seriously, the samples do not interest me. They will have to do a lot more to get me positively interested in the new Realms. Going with the analogy, they're practically going to have to make apple pie with oranges. I might settle for pears though, I'm pretty lenient. I might even go for apples, but they better be the best damn apples ever, preferably served by a legion of hot fantasy babes.
Well, there's no knowing what'll come until it comes. (Unless you're Alaundo...) So let's wait and see. That's all I was saying.
Heya,
I think all these people saying that they're turning DnD into WoW need to pick up a 14 day trial for WoW and actually go play it.
DnD is not being turned into WoW... CRPGs (and MMORPGs) cannot and never have lived up to the promise of a Pencil and Paper RPG (sadly, not even on so-called RP designated servers).
I've played a fair bit of WoW, and it is possible to roleplay on one of the designated servers... but you're right, it's nowhere near the same as Pen/Paper. I doubt any commercial online RPG ever will be, for the simple fact that maintaining a roleplaying environment would require enforcing a minimum level of roleplaying (or banning the lack thereof, specifically being blatantly 'out of character').
Even on a privately run server (using Neverwinter Nights, for instance) that enforces minimum standards, it's still a different experience, even if only because the dynamic is different. It's no longer one (semi-)static party and one DM, but many. It has its limitations, though it also has its advantages - unlike a tabletop group, an online game is always there, and there's usually always someone to roleplay with.
But I digress.
As far as game mechanics go, I'm really not worried about any changes here. These are the least of my worries. I have played so many different roleplaying game systems over the years, that I came to understand that the rules are really just a framework that we use to help us tell the story - and it's the story that's important. If you don't like one set of rules, you can change them out for another. It may take a little work, but it's not impossible - whether that's d20 3.5, or any other system out there.
WoW actually does have some decent ideas to its class/level game mechanics. Personally, I'd like a little more freedom in my character designs, but it's a system made for mass market, rather than a small group overseen directly by a DM. But that's me.
Oh, and the Pie? The Pie smells suspiciously of rotten apples.
The Pie is also Evil. ;)
That's a big part of the pie, tho'. Like, ninety percent of the apple pie is the apple. Of this pie, we know perhaps the ingredients of the crust, the cinnamon content, etc.... as for the fruit or whatever makes up the actual pie, we don't much know. For that, we need to see the next edition of FRCS, or some novel or other actually set during the 4E time period (and one that goes in-depth on the changes, rather than simply being set during that time).
The huge, glaring error that many of you guys are making, is that we all have to know the same amount of 'ingredients' that goes into a pie to make judgments on it. We don't, and there's nothing that either 'side' can do to change the others' opinion.
For example, I hate mint. It makes me vomit. No matter how good the rest of a pie is, if there's mint in it, I will NOT EAT IT. So don't try to tell us that we're 'jumping the gun,' when we don't need to be shot in the forehead to realize when someone's pointing a gun at us, we should duck.
EDIT: Me writing 'jumping the GUY' is the best Freudian slip, ever.
Mmmmmm... I'm so happy the holidays are coming. :D
I hate Mint as well, and it is my Ex's favorite flavor. Still can't understand how we wound up together. I suppose opposites really DO attract.
I prefer hair pie myself, but thats because I like to floss WHILE I'm eating. :P
Maybe we can get Rich Baker & Co. to eat some Humble Pie when this all over, ;)
DB
The huge, glaring error that many of you guys are making, is that we all have to know the same amount of 'ingredients' that goes into a pie to make judgments on it. We don't, and there's nothing that either 'side' can do to change the others' opinion.
Ditto...but define "you guys".
I'll wait for the FRCG...I already made a promise to LK to not speak ignorrantly about 4e (argh! I have so much pent up humor I could share! Gods damn Ao, why did I ever make such a foolish promise?!?!?!):P
What samples do you speak of?
Revelations in The Orc King and in Grand History of the Realms. Plot developments in the Undermountain and Shadowdale adventures. Deicides in the Lady Penitent series (let's not kid ourselves--it's paving the way for 4E). Being told, by Chris Perkins no less, that fans of the Seven Sisters (I am one) will not like what the 4E meta-plot has in store for those characters.
I haven't liked what I've heard so far. *shrug* I see no reason not to formulate an opinion about it. I can always change my opinion later--it's not a big deal for me.
For example, I hate mint. It makes me vomit. No matter how good the rest of a pie is, if there's mint in it, I will NOT EAT IT. So don't try to tell us that we're 'jumping the gun,' when we don't need to be shot in the forehead to realize when someone's pointing a gun at us, we should duck.
That's like me with raisins...there are RAISINS in the pie WotC is making!
It's pretty valid, though. If something contains something that people are are PARTICULARLY strongly adverse to, then it's only sensible that said persons not like the overall product.
Unless whatever else is in that something is so overwhelmingly represented that it drowns out the adverse portion.
But usually one adds an 'ingredient' specifically so it has a taste in the final product. To have an unnecessary ingredient is just a waste.
:-p
But, I for one, don't necessarilly assume that I won't find anything of value in the new product.
If I wasn't going tens of thousands of dollars into university debt, with more to go, maybe I'd think differently. ;)
Unless whatever else is in that something is so overwhelmingly represented that it drowns out the adverse portion.
That's impossible for me where raisins are concerned.
Revelations in The Orc King and in Grand History of the Realms. Plot developments in the Undermountain and Shadowdale adventures. Deicides in the Lady Penitent series (let's not kid ourselves--it's paving the way for 4E). Being told, by Chris Perkins no less, that fans of the Seven Sisters (I am one) will not like what the 4E meta-plot has in store for those characters.
I haven't liked what I've heard so far. *shrug* I see no reason not to formulate an opinion about it. I can always change my opinion later--it's not a big deal for me.
And that is a good stance to take. Trepidation is a wonderful emotion--keeps one wary of the bull, should it happen to come stomping and snorting into one's neighborhood. It's declaring the end of the world with so little to go on that's unwise.
And that is a good stance to take. Trepidation is a wonderful emotion--keeps one wary of the bull, should it happen to come stomping and snorting into one's neighborhood. It's declaring the end of the world with so little to go on that's unwise.
Um no one in a while is declaring the end of the world(well in awhile that is). We are just expressing our trepidation so that maybe we can get a message across that more moderate changes would be order not these sweeping changes.
And that is a good stance to take. Trepidation is a wonderful emotion--keeps one wary of the bull, should it happen to come stomping and snorting into one's neighborhood. It's declaring the end of the world with so little to go on that's unwise.
Indeed, my personal stance is of cynicism and skepticism based on what I've seen.
I'd like to think that there is no one here who equates what happens in a fictional fantasy setting with a real "end of the world".
"Luke Skywalker's most terrifying adventure yet."
"Things will never be the same again!"
"Will change their life forever."
sound familiar?
I find the previews make me want to look into 4E Realms less. Before GHotR I was actually excited about 4E D&D and the 4E Realms. The interest for 4E D&D is still there, but I guess I just have a morbid curiosity towards the new Realms. The previews with their heavy handed wording and implied massive RSE gave me the final push I needed to switch to homebrew settings, which found full support for in my group, the other DM had pushed for homebrew for a while now (our Berdusk looks nothing like the one found in the Western Heartlands, I'm going to push for a city name change for the sake of separation).
Probably to make people want to buy it more.
"Luke Skywalker's most terrifying adventure yet."
"Things will never be the same again!"
"Will change their life forever."
sound familiar?
Well that might be true(I really hope it is) don't they realize that this not some movie to be previewed. It is a RPG that DM take time crafting campaigns in. This kind of nonsense is really bad idea if you ask me.
Vaguely familiar, but I felt such lines are usually put on ads and not in the actual product.
Grand History of the Realm's last page *IS* an ad.
And Dark Wizard, while it changed you, it brought me back to the Realms. So it's failure for you and a success for me.
...
That's food of course. The realms are another matter. :P
I don't know why change has to equal ruin. Really people lets get a grip. I see the problem as too many people are way to emotionally investing in fictional characters. Remember it's a role playing game which by definition means we are supposed to use our own imaginations to fill in the blanks. I think a segment of the FR fans have become lazy with all the realms lore being spoon fed to them. That's what's great about WOTC's new approach. It's a kind of mini reset with the result being the players now have more control over how to flesh out thier version of the Forgotten Realms.
Fantasy worlds are supposed to be living breathing entities but most of you seem to want to keep it stuck in one moment. Stop doing what's easy and take a chance with the new changes. You never know you might end up really liking it.
It would have been nice if you quoted the final version of the letter, rather than the old (and discharged) one.
I don't understand why people shouldn't express their point of view without being targeted by such criticism.
They announced changes. My letter (the final one) asked reasons only about announced changes.
Other settings were adapted according to fans requests (being at the same point of FRCS). There's no will of "keeping FR stuck", nor any "emotional attachement to ficrtional characters".
They have announced changes that were inconsistent, in my opinion (and not only mine: several people agreed with me and signed the above said letter, in it's final version). I wrote a letter, that's all.
Don't see what's wrong with it.
Dear WotC staff,
I write this letter to express my concerns (and not only mine: this letter is signed by other players who share my point of view) about the incoming 4th Edition Forgotten Realms.
You announced some very serious changes to the setting. So serious, in fact, that the setting itself won’t look the same anymore.
I'm a relatively short term player, since I started buying D&D products in 2001 (it should be noted that, by now, I own 55 handbooks both from the 3.0 and 3.5 edition), so my opinion could be considered of secondary relevance. At the same time, many long term players, such as people who collected D&D material since the 80's (or even the 70's), say on the boards that they'll leave the game because of the 4E changes. They do not, of course, represent the whole number of old time players and what we may call a certain “number of casualties” is taken into account for each new edition. Nonetheless I think it is worthy of note that people who have been through at least three D&D editions under TSR, one major change when 3.0 came out and the 3.5 transition are now willing to quit the hobby, or at a minimum, to move on to either homebrewing or other campaign settings by other companies.
But, first, I have a few questions (which are highlighted in bold so that they are easily distinguishable):
What if a player (or players) are not interested in such changes? The answer could be that if a player is not interested with changing the Realms he can easily keep playing in the setting as it has been until now without including Spellplague in the Realms and the events afterwards. This is indeed the easiest way of continuing the game and previous campaigns without having to re-start everything, but it leads me to another question:
What will be the use of buying 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting if I am not interested in the changes? I think this may be a problematic question, because groups of player willing to continue with the old setting might not be interested in the new one if it is so different from previously published material. While some clearly are, shouldn't the option be both more available and viable for those who wish to continue?
If I already own every useful handbook to play in the older setting, thus being able to continue to play it with 3rd Edition rules, what would be the point of buying any 4th Edition material at all (and thus being forced to convert every single monster stat and everything)?
Finally, why have you decided to make such drastic changes? What are the reasons? Was it impossible to make a new setting matching the market requirements you expected from the new Realms?
I think it’s fair to give you the reasons I’m so deeply concerned about the incoming 4th Edition of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (these also are written in bold and numbered for easier and quicker reference).
1) Spellplague: I think such an event forces players into a very specific style of play, which they may or may not enjoy, while one of the biggest advantages of the traditional Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (hence FRCS) was that they gave a huge range of possible styles of play that was enjoyed by a vast number of players with vastly different tastes.
Furthermore, although a particularly significant design point in 4th edition has been the concept of 'Points of Light', even reviewing some of the 3rd edition and 3.5 edition material, there were still many places that were not entirely tamed; that were not dominated by what some individuals consider to be the problematic presence of high-level characters or the Chosen.
2) Drastic changes concerning deities: this voice includes indeed more than one concern. The first being the inconsistency of some of the announced acts from gods like Tyr (the reasons for which he kills Helm – who is an ally – are very weak) or even Cyric and Shar (why should the latter kill Mystra, knowing that it will damage her Shadow Weave users too? Although the case can be made that doing so may represent an acceptable losses on her part compared to the much greater gain of killing her greatest enemy in the Faerunian pantheon, in a system where a deity can actually die from lack of faith, this also seems like an extremely high-risk strategy.) If she was unaware of the implications of her acts, why would she act when we know that she is a goddess that plans everything with deadly accuracy? It seems implausible that she simply made a mistake, and solid reasons should be required for such big events.
Another concern is the death of Mystra: not very original. How many times has she died-at least twice, not counting this one? Frankly it’s getting ridiculous that so powerful a deity has the mortality rate of a laboratory rat. Third and last concern of this category is: during the Time of Troubles (hence ToT) Ao punished the whole pantheons with a world shaking event just because a few of them stole an artifact. Now that they are killing each other why he does not care? Does he care? How will the apparent inconsistency of this be explained?
3) Drastic reduction in the presence of magic and of high level NPC: FRCS has always been a high magic – high level campaign. I understand that a lot of fans may have asked for a low-magic low-NPC level campaign, but why change an existing one? Why couldn’t a new one be made?
It should be noted that if a powerful NPC overshadows Player Characters, we’re talking about a problem with the DM, not the Setting itself.
4) Exaggerated timeline advancement: this again forces players to begin an entirely new campaign based upon the premise that they wish to stay current with recent Wizards' of the Coast releases. While this is one of the objective of the announced 4th Edition style of play, was it necessary to force such a decision by advancing 100 years in time? I understand that it was partially due to grant (at least a bit of) consistency to world shaking events like the Spellplague, but since such events are under discussion, I think it’s fair to put some extension of doubt on this huge timeline advancement too.
5) Apparent deafness to players opinions: This is easily the worst thing. I don’t want to make it sound like a child’s complaint for not being listened to by his parents, but apparently other settings’ fans have been listened to when it came time to make changes for 4th Edition (for example Wyatt was pleased to announce that the fans requests for the Eberron Campaign Setting –hence ECS- have been implemented in the incoming 4th Edition of that setting). Why didn’t the Forgotten Realms Fans benefit from the same attention level, since the changes are far more drastic than simply advancing a couple of years in time? Was it fear of rejection that led you to announce changes without giving the fans a chance to express their opinion? Or were you so sure that the changes would have been accepted by the majority of fans?
Even in this case I don’t understand why you didn’t leave at least a bit of space for our opinions and immediately resorted to saying: “We won’t go back on our decisions about 4th Edition FRCS”.
Waiting an answer.
Sincerely yours,
(Signatures)
This version is only slightly different from the last one posted, but just because it has been proofreaded by Palindrome.
Probably to make people want to buy it more.
"Luke Skywalker's most terrifying adventure yet."
"Things will never be the same again!"
"Will change their life forever."
sound familiar?
I'm finding, though, that the bombastic, ominous promotional copy is (more and more often) turning out to be accurate with regards to the actual products themselves.
Grand History of the Realm's last page *IS* an ad.
And Dark Wizard, while it changed you, it brought me back to the Realms. So it's failure for you and a success for me.
Not sure whether you mean the last page of the timeline or the actual last page of the book. The thing is, the last page of the timeline basically "intruded" into the actual product. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it's a good way to spread the word (so a good business move for WotC), but I found the changes lackluster (especially in the truncated form of timeline entries). I felt they could have handled the preview better.
As for me losing and you gaining, it seemed like you played in the Realms somewhat and you're knowledgeable about the Realms already, so I'm not sure how much of a gain that is. Technically I'll most likely check out at least the FRCG (so I'm not a total loss to the setting), but I'll be hard pressed to convince my group to actually game in the setting come 4E, or I will have to try converting it to some 3e lore/4E rules hybrid, which means that while I will get the 4E core books, 4E FR books might never come into the equation.
All I know is that my group decided to switch to something else, and despite my comfort with the setting through 2e and 3e, I reluctantly agreed with them. I find that unfortunate, I like the Realms and now I will have less of a chance to play in them. The Realms did not help itself with the last few entries in GHotR. One of my players broke out in a chuckle when he read it, commenting something to the extent of: "Those crazy gods, there goes another one, aw-shucks." Different people, different opinions, you and your group might have loved the changes, my entire group found them not to our liking. So the Realms are in some ways gone for me, and whatever happens in your group does not affect me.
So the Realms are in some ways gone for me, and whatever happens in your group does not affect me.
I understand but my players had ditched the Realms. They had taken to Star Wars D20 and Eberron despite my horrible attempts to get them back to FR in often rather obvious ways. Then they got the Grand History of the Realms and wanted to play in it again.
So I'm once more back "home" with them.
As to the 4e changes, the more and more that I read and think on it, the more I think I'm going to be ignoring the existance of 4e entirely. Just doesn't seem like my cup of tea from what I've seen thus far.
I find the previews make me want to look into 4E Realms less. Before GHotR I was actually excited about 4E D&D and the 4E Realms. The interest for 4E D&D is still there, but I guess I just have a morbid curiosity towards the new Realms. The previews with their heavy handed wording and implied massive RSE gave me the final push I needed to switch to homebrew settings, which found full support for in my group, the other DM had pushed for homebrew for a while now (our Berdusk looks nothing like the one found in the Western Heartlands, I'm going to push for a city name change for the sake of separation).
I am pretty much in the same boat. I liked some of the concepts for 4th ED, particularly the digital aspects of it. Other parts, I await more info with hopefull trepidation (things like the "Clearly defined roles". Hearing that phrase makes me shudder, as the first thing that comes to mind is "Clearly Defined"= nerfed versatility). However the changes to the realms was a huge buzz kill. It single handedly killed whatever excitement I had for 4th ED, and has me seriously considering staying with 3.5 and starting a homebrew campaign.
I understand but my players had ditched the Realms. They had taken to Star Wars D20 and Eberron despite my horrible attempts to get them back to FR in often rather obvious ways. Then they got the Grand History of the Realms and wanted to play in it again.
So I'm once more back "home" with them.
That is good to hear about your group. A part of me just wished the Realms could appeal to other groups AND mine, rather than trade one audience for another, but this fan flipping is probably the only realistic outcome of all this.
Um no one in a while is declaring the end of the world(well in awhile that is). We are just expressing our trepidation so that maybe we can get a message across that more moderate changes would be order not these sweeping changes.
Indeed, my personal stance is of cynicism and skepticism based on what I've seen.
I'd like to think that there is no one here who equates what happens in a fictional fantasy setting with a real "end of the world".
I'd like to think so, too. I'd also like to take that as a joke, because if you actually missed my meaning, I'd be inclined to bang my head fiercely and repeatedly against my computer desk's sharpest corner. :P
My entire point hasn't been that people should stop complaining about what they hear; it's that people shouldn't complain all that fiercely. Or melodramatically. There's one other thread, in the people and places forum, that starts out with a brief, sorrowful post that makes it sound like someone shot his best friend with an elephant gun.
That's why I wanted to say something about the thread topic itself, "Thank you for destroying the Realms..." Unless it's an intentional exaggeration of that poster's views at the time, they were jumping the gun, IMHO.
I'd like to think so, too. I'd also like to take that as a joke, because if you actually missed my meaning, I'd be inclined to bang my head fiercely and repeatedly against my computer desk's sharpest corner. :P
Please, don't hurt yourself.
My entire point hasn't been that people should stop complaining about what they hear; it's that people shouldn't complain all that fiercely. Or melodramatically.
Everyone is fierce and melodramatic here, no matter where they are coming from.
Up until 3e, I bought nearly every D&D product that came out. When 3e came out, I became a little pickier, and only purchased those tomes I found useful.
The only thing I think 4e will do for me is that I will no longer read the novels either. I was avoiding more and more of them as time went on, and I really have no interest in anything set beyond 1382 DR.
I think I'll just buy the rule books and probably the FRCG (out of morbid curiousity), and that will be it for me. If they really do the century time-jump, then all the old lore becomes obsolete (what am I going to do with 100 yr old NPCs?), and we will have to buy whatever new material comes dribbling down the pipe. IF I just stick with the old setting, I have some 50+ books to use.
Its just a matter of common sense - ditch everything I've spent so much money on just for the honor of spending more money, or use what I have and keep having fun. For those of you that weren't having fun in FR and are only now coming back into the fold - more power to ya'. I suppose we all get exactly what we want in the end. ;)
I understand but my players had ditched the Realms. They had taken to Star Wars D20 and Eberron despite my horrible attempts to get them back to FR in often rather obvious ways. Then they got the Grand History of the Realms and wanted to play in it again.
So I'm once more back "home" with them.
This is the same way with me and my group. I am running Eberron right now and people are having fun but people really want to pick up their old pcs and play in FR. They want to play even if I do a cheesey time travel thing if there is a 100 year jump.
I think I'll just buy the rule books and probably the FRCG (out of morbid curiousity), and that will be it for me.
If you really do not think you will like the new Realms, I suggest you do not just buy the FRCG but take a good gander at it first. Otherwise you are blindly voting with your dollars in favor of it.
Also, Rich recently stated that the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (FRCG) will only really be useful to you if you plan to convert to 4e, and if you are not planning on converting to 4e then you will find the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide (FRPG) more useful.
Anyway you look at it, I think that this is a crucial time for all Realms to vote from an informed position with their dollars. Everyone should make sure that they like what they are buying before buying it, otherwise we will give WotC people the wrong impression of what we actually think about the "new" Realms when it comes out.
I plan on keeping my FR pretty much as I always had it, which is actually quite a bit different then the canon version. My game is set in 1390 DR, so there's no way for me to do the Spellplague as written.
However, the FRCG may come in handy convetting the NEW rules to the OLD setting. I plan on using the magical traditions and combat rules - I just don't plan on an IG explanation. ;)
BTW, I never said the new setting didn't sound interesting, I merely said it wasn't FR.
If they lose as many players as they gain, then what was the point?
The new players are going to last longer than the old ones, in general, being younger...
The new players are going to last longer than the old ones, in general, being younger...
Excellent deduction!
We have a limited 'shelf life', it would appear.
And I'm sure there are going to be older players who will, for whatever reason, take to the 4E Realms. I think it's not so much a matter of age (I don't consider 30+ to be "old", for example, far from it!) so much as a matter of older players having less time and inclination to dedicate to this hobby (in general) than younger ones.
If you really do not think you will like the new Realms, I suggest you do not just buy the FRCG but take a good gander at it first. Otherwise you are blindly voting with your dollars in favor of it.
Hey, not all of us are voting with dollars. Me, I'll take your advice and take a good long look at it before voting with my ⁈ Euros. From what I've seen so far Hasbro very likely won't win this one.
Here's to hoping all the 'optomists' are right.
Cheers --- Mark
Well, being in my mid 30's, I'll happily and proudly say that 30's is quite old thankyouverymuch. If it isn't, the old curmudgeon act I occassionally adopt just looks stupid and lame, so :P
Hey, being a curmudgeon has nothing to do with age! If it does, then I'd be old too!:P
Maybe 'playing' keeps one young at heart. :D
I'm 44 - you're only as young... or old... as you feel.
Nah. I'm 25 (26 on Dec 24th!) and I feel like I'm 90....wait...that proves your point...crappity!:P
Maybe 'playing' keeps one young at heart.
Nope. It's the prune juice we drink
and weird sex we have with strangers I think WotC is aiming at a "youngish" audience (probably the typical 18-25 age group), but old players aren't necessarily...well, old. I'm an "old" fan of the Realms, but I'm still in my mid-twenties.
If that's the case, being 23, I'm perfectly within that target age range, yet I'm not very interested in the new Realms, not only from my old curmudgeon pre-3e outlook but also from my attention-span deficient, shiny object seeking, self-gratifying power-obsessed, sex and violence oriented, explosion addicted, gratuitous T&A desiring, not-quite-yet-fully-mature mind. I buy into dark and edgy styling, I like massive conflicts, impossible odds, sinister threats and larger-than-life heroes. I like fancy swords and fighting (not ridiculously so) and flashy spells. I like video game chic. I've never felt D&D in general was blatantly good at any of that, comes with the territory of being a tabletop game I guess. The Realms hasn't ever seemed glitzy to me, it never had anything approaching a distinct look or style. Some D&D related properties that did have a certain vibe from both art and text are Planescape and Eberron. That's why on occasion I bring up my perception of the Realms' lack of a noticeable art direction.
The thing that kept me coming back to the Realms was a roughly acceptable sense of detail and an arguably gradually changing status quo. Now that they changed some of it and hint at changing more of it fast, I have to seriously reconsider my participation in the new Realms. The only other way they might win me over is if they throw enough eye-candy, cool anti-heroes and deadly vixens at me. However, video games, movies and comics have a good hold on that. The two aspects, substance and style, are not mutually exclusive either. It feels to me that the Realms are lessening the former for a poorly executed upgrade of the latter.
How'd we get to talking about weird sex with strangers?I was jokingly comparing the situation to "replacement smokers," actually. You know--the customer gets killed by the product so you have to make sure you're always roping in new customers. I didn't actually, seriously mean it. Third edition isn't exactly old, after all.
Me, I'm nineteen, and not a player of D&D yet. I have my stepdad's old 1E Players Handbook and Dungeon Masters Guide and a book called "Deities and Demigods" (complete with crappy cover art, interior doodle art, and teeny-weeny print) and I have a 2E basic game, and to top it off I have a 3E basic game, too. Ha! Something from every edition, and I've never played any of them, unless you count Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale toward playing D&D. My problem is, I have two players on hand who have an interest in playing: my stepdad, who's too busy; and my brother, who's an amateur. *sigh* Eventually I'll find a group of gamers to play with, but I guess I'll just have to wait until that day comes. Probably not until 4E comes out, I'd guess...
The pie sure as hell smells bad, and I for one can't stomach eating things that smell terrible...
I had this great reply about your comment, and suddenly understanding your sexual preferences, but I'm not even going to go there......
Otherwise, I'd suggest taking a trip to your local gaming shop and seeing if they have a bulletin board or something to facilitate hooking up with other players in your area. My local shop has a D&D night they throw weekly, so you might look around for something like that you could hook up with in your area.
As to how we got on the topic of weird sex with strangers, blame KtM and his mad ravings... which is usually a good policy for most tangents really, given that I've bestowed upon him the portfolio of the non-sequiter to help out his divinity a bit. :D
Nah. I'm 25 (26 on Dec 24th!) and I feel like I'm 90....wait...that proves your point...crappity!:P
I know the feel, I'm 23 (21st september) and feel like 40.
Nope. It's the prune juice we drink
-Just so everyone knows, I've been trying to make him do more of the former, and less of the latter. Or was it the other way around? Either way, it's detrimental to this aspect as well!
I think WotC is aiming at a "youngish" audience (probably the typical 18-25 age group), but old players aren't necessarily...well, old. I'm an "old" fan of the Realms, but I'm still in my mid-twenties.
Yeah, same here. I've been playing for 15 years in the Realms now and will be 25 as of late November. I've been lucky enough to play in the same on-going weekly Realms game for the last seven years and our Realms has evolved into our own homebrew within the Realms. I'm sure a lot of people have games like that...least, I be hopin'.
So when 4th edition FR comes out, I'll look it over, take what might be decent, and stick to what we like. That's the beauty of it, folks. We can ignore the bull#$#@ and keep what we like.
Pity it probably won't be very good and that good old Realms feelin' (been lovin' it since the Old Grey Box) will be gone...
Well, back to prayin' to the surviving FR deities for the hopeful continuation of a great thing...
For anyone who is interested, here are the results of my poll on Candlekeep after three weeks (Votes counted so far - 120):
Question:
How do you feel about the changes mentioned at the end of the Grand History of the Realms?
Results:
I hate the changes! What the hell were they thinking? [43%] 52 votes
I dislike them, but I could live with them if they are presented in a manner that makes sense. [27%] 32 votes
I like the changes, but have some reservations about what they entail. [13%] 16 votes
I like the changes and I feel very positive about the direction being taken with the update. [11%] 13 votes
I don''t care either way. (Please mention reason in a post.) [6%] 7 votes
:D
:D
I hope WotC sees that poll.
I had this great reply about your comment, and suddenly understanding your sexual preferences, but I'm not even going to go there.....
Good show, old chap.
Not to start a smoking debate, but that's not entirely accurate if one takes a serious unbiased look at the credible data that isn't based on previous studies, which were in fact based on other earlier studies... which were wildly misinterpreted in the first place. Honestly, its no different from prohibition, given a modern spin and a different target. Is it healthy, no, almost certainly not, but its probably not nearly as deadly as its been portrayed either given that the original study most of it was based on came up as mostly inconclusive statistically. ;)
Wasn't looking to start up a smoking debate, either. Personally, when it comes to people smoking, the only thing I care about is that I can't stand the smell. So if you smoke someplace where I can't smell it, you're welcome to your deathstick. As f'r me, I never saw the attraction in lighting a smokebomb in my own mouth, so...
Otherwise, I'd suggest taking a trip to your local gaming shop and seeing if they have a bulletin board or something to facilitate hooking up with other players in your area. My local shop has a D&D night they throw weekly, so you might look around for something like that you could hook up with in your area.
I don't even know where my local shop is! I got my 2nd and 3rd edition basic games at the bookstore. If there be a gaming shop around here (there probably is--I once knew a kid in my high school class who mentioned in passing that he played D&D and Magic: The Gathering with friends at some gaming place or other, but as for the specifics of where and when, I don't remember him saying) I don't know where it is. But that's what websearch is for, eh?
As to how we got on the topic of weird sex with strangers, blame KtM and his mad ravings... which is usually a good policy for most tangents really, given that I've bestowed upon him the portfolio of the non-sequiter to help out his divinity a bit. :D
No need. He's Cyric in disguise, don't you know? He has his own portfolio. :P
Curmudgeon sure, but not old curmudgeon. The 'damned kids these days' lines just have to be tossed right out the window...
Hey, I'm an old curmudgeon! (which is why I chose Taern as my avatar ;)) And I like to use lines like "damned kids these days..." :P
I'd try the Yellow Pages, under games or hobby before I'd try a web search personally, but that's just me... part of the old curmudgeon in me slipping back out. ;)
Me and my best friend always refer to people as 'kids,' usually regardless of age.
-I'm not very comfortable having the word 'curmudgeon' in a thread mentioning various people's sexualities.
I don't even remeber what sex was like anymore... :P
And now I'd like to propose that we get back to our regularly scheduled program, which is Fourth Edition Forgotten Realms as opposed to people's nonexistent sex lives...
Eh. Either way, we're being screwed...
Not if you're a vir--I mean, yeah, we are! :embarrass
What BadCat said.
-I'm not very comfortable having the word 'curmudgeon' in a thread mentioning various people's sexualities.
'Curmudgeon' is a sexual preference now?!
@Asgetrion - I hear you. I suppose I could get 'some' if I really tried, but I don't want what I can get. ;)
On Topic: Hmmmmm... um... yeah... those Realms.... they're all like, destroyed and stuff.
I suppose the only thing for it is to keep on discussing dirty topics until an angry dwarven moderator decides to axe the whole thread! :DPerhaps a paladin moderator would walk in and Smite Evil us all.
Well, that would be fine, I am Neutral Good (see my sig :D) so it would not affect me!
On Topic: So Bane goes Core and hangs with Pelor and Bahamut (well, in the same cosmology ANYWAY). Except there's not supposed to be a 'core' in 4e - we were told at Gencon that they are moving away from the concept of seperate 'core' and FR rules.
But that means...
Tonight on Leno:
"Folks, I'd like to introduce tonight's guest; he's an Amalgam god from the recently re-merged world Abeir-Toril - let's give it up for.. PELANDER!!!"
Let's face it--Karsus the Mad killed this thread with his poisoned prune juice.
Hey, don't blame me. All I did was post a rather small reply to Markus. It's not my fault that the rest of the people continued the way they did
Unless you believe I have jedi powers
, in which case "You all want to send me your money."
and I'll concede and admit my blame once I recieve the paymentLuckily my gaming store owner offered me the city of brass boxed set which fits with my "Fire Versus Ice" campaign...
Sorry Karsus! but Dan's mind was just too strong...
So the Aberrations have been waiting until their chaotic plane becomes cotermonious with the world once again so that they can be freed from their underground prison?
Isn't that Eberron?!
So the 'Baker Boys' are at it again, eh?
Welcome to the Fargotten Realms.
So the Aberrations have been waiting until their chaotic plane becomes cotermonious with the world once again so that they can be freed from their underground prison?
Isn't that Eberron?!
So the 'Baker Boys' are at it again, eh?
Again, you make me laugh!
Maybe this is an Eberron-merging after all...
I don't recall the word, but someone had to train all those Orcish Druids who sealed up that world's 'anti-deluvian horrors'.
It seems that they are going back to some form of universal cosmology in 4e, so it wouldn't suprise me if some group were involved early on with several worlds, and the Fey (Le'Shay) would be a perfect candidate for this.
I'd like to whomever came up with it.
Lol! I like the word leShay a lot! It makes me giggle every time I see someone state how they hate it and whoever came up with it should have something unpleasant happen to them. (No offense meant to you RF.)I think I'll go through all my Eberron books when I get home and see if there's any mention of the 'Empyrean'.
I don't recall the word, but someone had to train all those Orcish Druids who sealed up that world's 'anti-deluvian horrors'.
It seems that they are going back to some form of universal cosmology in 4e, so it wouldn't suprise me if some group were involved early on with several worlds, and the Fey (Le'Shay) would be a perfect candidate for this.
You can be fairly sure that you'll find nothing 'empyrean' or 'anti-deluvian' in Eberron. Most Aberrations are creations of the Daelkyr who come from Xoriat, the Plane of Madness.
While it's possible to tie in the Cerulean stuff into Eberron, it wouldn't take a huge part of it.
This "Planar Invasion ino the Realms" idea strikes me a rather un-original, though I'# have to read the novel before making a first judgement.
It's OK, I'm glad I made you laugh.
Well, remember the Cheesy fake French accent the narator had?
I think he was the the one that came up with 'zee Le'Shay'.
Auvoire, Mon Ami... Viva le' Revolution!
:coolcthul So unless the designers are willing to create "Waterworld" (Another classic FAILURE I might add), the only thing this is coterminus with is the Elemental Plane of Nonsense.
Not fond of LeShay either though... prefer Sidhe or Tuatha, but that's my Changeling roots showing.
But then again, I'm the guy who doesn't like generic Clerics or Paladins in the Realms, and who is working on campaign settings with fully fleshed out original as possible linguistics (based on my limited skill in English, Latin, Spanish, and Etymological theory - going to learn Dutch soon, I hope, too), and with millions of years of general historical evolution...
In any event, I am an Epic level Sith/Jedi Lord. My mind powers are flawless.
On a completely different note: Why would you want to learn Dutch, of all languages?
DB
The Dark Elves are called Shee...
and the DARKER Elves are called Sith.
I kid you not.
Ergo, if you are a Sith Lord, then in Ravenloft you would be Dark Elven nobility. ;)
NOTE: IN RL, Dark Elves are pre-descent (the curse never reached into the mists), so they are NOT Drow. Strange, huh? No Drow in a setting thats all about evil.
You do know that there are two types of Elves in Ravenloft?
The Dark Elves are called Shee...
and the DARKER Elves are called Sith.
I kid you not.
Ergo, if you are a Sith Lord, then in Ravenloft you would be Dark Elven nobility. ;)
NOTE: IN RL, Dark Elves are pre-descent (the curse never reached into the mists), so they are NOT Drow. Strange, huh? No Drow in a setting thats all about evil.
Not strange, actually. You make a dark elven race, you're golden--but make a drow race, and you'll be so deep in lawyers you won't be able to tell your ear from your rear. :D
They only license it out these days because they are too uncreative to do anything decent with it.
On a completely different note: Why would you want to learn Dutch, of all languages?
Some friends of mine are looking at going to grad school there - and I wouldn't mind checking it out, either.
I am also looking at Germany. It's too late to claim citizenship - I'll be 23 soon. But I'd probably be able to learn it significantly easier than Dutch, and it is the FATHERLAND OF PHYSICS!
Dutch immigrants of yore had a profound influence on the way Americans speak english nowadays. Say the words dumb, skipper, knapsack, landscape stove and stool come from the dutch words dom, schipper, knapzak, landschap, stoof and stoel.
LeShay sounds fine to me. And they OWN! So they are OK in my book.
I didn't have a seperate FEY race - my Elves were Fey. Looking back, I suppose Bwernai sounds more like an Elven term for Dwarves. Since MY Dwarves were more Nordic, something a little more Germanic sounding would have been more appropriate.
In the next setting I worked on, I had a single group of magic-using Dwarves (before it became fashionable) called Niblungs, and I took THAT from Viking Myths.
I don't think Le'Shay is the best name I've ever heard for the Fey, but it's not the worst either. I can live with it.
Especially if this edition is finally going to give us some much-needed Faerie Lore. ;)
:P
I am also looking at Germany. It's too late to claim citizenship - I'll be 23 soon. But I'd probably be able to learn it significantly easier than Dutch, and it is the FATHERLAND OF PHYSICS!
Naah, it's not too late. We have a new citizenship law since 2001. You only have to get a permit of residence, live here for a few years and then apply for citizenship.
'Curmudgeon' is a sexual preference now?!
-Don't know, but whenever I see the word, I mentally see a different one.
In any event, I am an Epic level Sith/Jedi Lord. My mind powers are flawless.
-Nope. You're a *****.
-Eh, I didn't really mean that, don't worry.
But I wanted it BEFORE I went to school.
You can always come here after school.
Dutch language is a great way to train your tongue for germanic pronounciations. It is very hard to learn though, it has no real logical grammar like German, only exceptions. Say the word angstschreeuw(which means: scream of fear) is the word with the most "medeklinkers" (I dont know the name for the english descriptor for k, b, p, l, etc) behind eachother in the world!
Dutch immigrants of yore had a profound influence on the way Americans speak english nowadays. Say the words dumb, skipper, knapsack, landscape stove and stool come from the dutch words dom, schipper, knapzak, landschap, stoof and stoel.
LeShay sounds fine to me. And they OWN! So they are OK in my book.
it aint particularly surprising considering that both dutch (flemmish) and english are derrived from saxon and auld english and flemmish still aren't that far apart now.
considering that you americans borrowed your native tongue from us then forgot how to speak it properly :P , it's hardly surprising that it's contains similar words.
I've learned a phrase!
Youw moeder is een nijlpaard.
Really good!
But its: Jouw moeder is...
Jouw moeder is...
Wow...
That sounds SO un-PC.
Carrot, the words I stated might have even shared earlier etymological rootwords but they were adapted and absorbed by the english speaking majoraties only a two centuries ago.
Motorfiets is an amazing word for motorcycle.
She also knows some German (she's lived there, but she's "rusty") - so after Dutch, is German, for me. Then I'm thinking something more exotic - maybe Sanskrit.
Wow...
That sounds SO un-PC.
Sorry, what? un-PC as in un personal computer or wha?let's just say that if I said that to my kids, I could probably be arrested for comitting a Hate Crime, even if it doesn't mean what it sounds like. :P
Very good nonetheless. And you'll get in trouble stating that in Amsterdam. Who told you that? Funny to see dutch always teach swears to foreigners. Guess i first learned to swear in English too! Yo momma is a ****.
Heh, this reminds me when a friend started teaching a classmate of his some Bulgarian phrases. It would have been a lot better if he had told him what they actually meant.
Anyway, back on topic, any news of just what we can expect in the Realms when WotC drags us kicking and screaming in the Century of the 4e Fruitbat?
Just because we don't speak cockney doesn't mean we don't speak English. ;)
you would not believe how ironic that is!
why is it that americans get the impression that cockney is the true dialect of english. the only people who think this over here are londoners.
it is THE MOST PERVERTED form of english spoken in these isles today.
the actual closest to proper english is spoken in north yorkshire.
most southern counties are inflicted with 18th and 19th century affectations, such as incorrectly pronouncing A in which they would pronounce the word
bath as barth.
and once you get up to the geordies there's some of em that quite probably still speak auld english.
the actual closest to proper english is spoken in north yorkshire.
-Nah. Da' most proper English is spokin' hea', in New Yawk.
"Jouw moeder is dik" is pretty bad, too, even if "dik" isn't exactly the kind of 'fat' I wanted in the first place.
-Now, I'm happy we're not talking about curmudgeons anymore, but Dan mentioning how 'fat' 'diks' aren't exactly the kinds of 'diks' he wants isn't much better. Is it just me?
you would not believe how ironic that is!
why is it that americans get the impression that cockney is the true dialect of english. the only people who think this over here are londoners.
it is THE MOST PERVERTED form of english spoken in these isles today.
the actual closest to proper english is spoken in north yorkshire.
most southern counties are inflicted with 18th and 19th century affectations, such as incorrectly pronouncing A in which they would pronounce the word
bath as barth.
and once you get up to the geordies there's some of em that quite probably still speak auld english.
My comment was ironic. Hence the winking face.
Now who's ironic?
Nope, it's just you, you old curmudgeon you. :P :D
-Hmm...Must be.
Next thing you know, he'll start dating Dark Elven Emo-types. :P
Apparently, all I need is my grandfather's birth certificate and proof that he never renounced his German citizenship... EU, here I come!
Anyway, I use the following smilies:
, , and ;). All others must be stopped.He goes so well with the "those are FABULOUS window treatments" smilie. :P
But I'm actually on a new medication now that lasts more like 12 hours.
Also, I work best under pressure: this is my last semester before grad school. "Last chance" and all of that. Just like I wait until last minute to write papers, and they turn out the best.
Funny thing? I can do 100 standard pushups without stopping, and a few hundred crunches. During one of the terrible phases of my teenage years, I was doing 2,000 crunches a day, or until I threw up a few times. I have a lot of muscle.. Just not at all visible.
Also, played a pretty intense frisbee game yesterday for 4 hours with a few Ultimate Frisbee fans of mine. That was good exercise, and we're going to try to do it every day. Cardiovascular, ahoy!
Funny thing? I can do 100 standard pushups without stopping, and a few hundred crunches. During one of the terrible phases of my teenage years, I was doing 2,000 crunches a day, or until I threw up a few times. I have a lot of muscle.. Just not at all visible.
-Exercising and being bulemic (sp?) at the same time. That's multitasking.
Once I'm a proper homosexual (read: good looking - next semester is my big work out one!), I'll start going to clubs and using the dancing smilie, I promise.
You know, not to go OT even more, but that sounds wrong.
You're probably half-joking, but half of it looks for real.
I've actually already lost weight this semester, and I HAVE been exercising. Medical issues (read: amphetamines the only last 8 hours, instead of the time I need considering I tutor until 10 and have classes at 8 am, meaning I have to double up - and never sleep or eat) have made it hard.
But I'm actually on a new medication now that lasts more like 12 hours.
Also, I work best under pressure: this is my last semester before grad school. "Last chance" and all of that. Just like I wait until last minute to write papers, and they turn out the best.
Funny thing? I can do 100 standard pushups without stopping, and a few hundred crunches. During one of the terrible phases of my teenage years, I was doing 2,000 crunches a day, or until I threw up a few times. I have a lot of muscle.. Just not at all visible.
Also, played a pretty intense frisbee game yesterday for 4 hours with a few Ultimate Frisbee fans of mine. That was good exercise, and we're going to try to do it every day. Cardiovascular, ahoy!
Unholy m***** f*****! If I can make 30 push-ups it's a miracle, after that I'm drained for a day.
During the few years of insane high school exercise and anorexia, I also did around 700 pushups a day. It actually messed up my metabolism even more, and made me gain MORE weight when I broke down and was unable to keep it all up.
My metabolism is about as mutilated as it can get. My friend recently asked, "Shouldn't you be as skinny as a rake?" (due to high doses of amphetamines). My answer was, "Yes, I don't want to talk about it."
You know, not to go OT even more, but that sounds wrong.
You're probably half-joking, but half of it looks for real.
I am a non-PC mystery wrapped in an enigma.
DEAD!
My biggest hope is we get to meet the little
Azoun V whom I already hate for reasons I have no clue about.Mostly because it means more Cormyr novels.
My biggest hope is we get to meet the little
That depends on how big a jump we're looking at. If it is 100 years, we'll probably see his son (I am not holding my breath that he will have a daughter for an heir) on the throne... If the Obarskyrs manage to survive that is.
The reason you hate him is probably because his birth was part of the "changing of the guard" in Cormyr (ie: the deaths of Azoun IV and Tanalasta) - plus it (he) stole the chance for Alusair to be Queen in her own right.
Mostly because it means more Cormyr novels.
I wouldn't bet on it. Cormyr has been traditionally too "Goody goody".
To bring it back on topic, I'm interested in how they're organically going to develop the Realms. It doesnt' seem like they're going to be going with the 100 year time jump like I initially thought since all the books we're reading instead seem to be taking us to the Year of Blue Fire.
Which books, besides the Grand History of the Realms?
Uhhh, clearly the "changing for 4E" started as early as the Spider Queen series. Slowly, the books have been bringing us closer to 4E's ideas with the elimination of deities and increasing prominence of certain ones over others.
You didn't answer my question. In fact, I don't think you even understood it...
You said:
"It doesnt' seem like they're going to be going with the 100 year time jump like I initially thought since all the books we're reading instead seem to be taking us to the Year of Blue Fire."
But no book that I know have has gone up to 1385 DR, except for GHotR. I don't see how you've proven your point.
An Article in Three Part
Part 1: Changes to the D&D Core Systems
All information comes from here. http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=4e
This part of the section will refer to elements that will clearly reflect aspects of the changing nature D&D main and thus its effects on the Forgotten Realms system by its very nature. I have selected bits and pieces that stuck out for me. I'll also give the occasional comment.
Planar Changes
* Rich Baker on the cosmology: "Here's one of the really cool features of the new cosmology that isn't explicitly called out in the article: Each world has its own set of astral dominions. You can make up as many celestial courts or reeking hells as you need to support your pantheon. So, for example, just about all of the godly planes listed in Forgotten Realms "Great Tree" cosmology can fit right in, no shoehorning necessary. Customize your own pantheons, and you can create each outer plane you need. I think it's good if some planes appear in every world's cosmology (the Nine Hells spring to mind), but there's no reason they have to. The constraints imposed by the Great Wheel aren't tying our hands anymore (but if you really really like the Great Wheel, well, no reason you can't have each of those planes as the astral dominions for your own campaign)....Oh, and regarding the Abyss: When I said thousands, I think I was thinking of Jupiter thousands. Jupiter's like 80,000 miles across and 300 times the size of the Earth. The Abyss is big like that."
So they've imported the 3E style of "Everyone has their own planes, but everyone is linked"
Okkaayyy.
* And Chris Simm's thoughts: "Those who see my article as broad strokes are on track. Those who see demons as forces of unmaking are on track. The article's (and Rich Baker's) generalities will get their refinement as the game evolves. Graz'zt won't need to be a devil, for example. He can have his place in the Abyss, right alongside Lolth (but below her, since she's a deity) without contradicting the broad strokes at all. Each specific entity can heve exceptions to the general."
Okay, so we're back in 1E.
Rich Baker on whether the new core cosmology will be adopted for FR: "I'm sure this is probably more than I ought to say right now, but yes....Of course, the particular astral dominions that will exist in Faerun's cosmology will correspond to the Realms pantheon. So you'll see Arvandor, House of the Triad, Warrior's Rest, etc., as shaken up by events of the Spellplague (no more Dweomerheart, for example)....Faerie's been touched on several times in Realmslore (for example, Elaine's novels). The Shadowfell and Plane of Shadow are pretty much the same thing. The Inner Planes are getting resorted to the Elemental Chaos, but no one ever went there before anyway, so it should be fine. We've got some details to work out on the interaction of the Fugue Plane with all this, but other than that, the new cosmology is going to be Faerun's cosmology."
So now, it's not the Great Wheel or the Great Tree, it's the Great Sea! Great Job Guys! It's a bit of a compromise but I rather like it.
Combat
More on martial abilities: "A skilled halberdier can hack a foe with his weapon’s blade and spin around to smash a second foe with the haft. A fighter with a longsword disarms her foe with a flick of her wrist, while a battle hungry axeman cleaves through shields, armor, and bone." "Rogues have a similar relationship with skills. A nimble rogue dives through the air to tumble past an ogre, while a charismatic one tricks an enemy into looking away just before she delivers a killing blow with her dagger. Just as fighters do more with weapons than any other character, rogues push skills beyond the limits that constrain other PCs."
Book of Nine Swords lives in us all now.
Magic
Will the Wizard and Sorcerer merge? No (source). Sorcerer will be different from wizards in more ways than just resource management.
That's rather omnious.
# Mike Mearls -- "BTW, who knew that so many people disliked Vancian spellcasting? The entire audience in yesterday's seminar cheered and clapped when we told them it was (mostly) gone."
This I'm outright rejoicing about.
# Chris Perkins on Vancian magic -- "It’s safe to say that the “Vancian” spellcasting system has received as much scrutiny as every other aspect of the D&D game. One thing we don’t want is a character running out of cool things to do in combat. In 4th Edition, all characters have a selection of at-will, per-encounter, and per-day resources. The exact mechanical execution of this base concept will be disclosed in the coming months on D&D Insider and the Wizards Presents: Races and Classes preview book, so no spoilers here!"
*high five's Chris Perkins*
* Wizardly orders: "They're not really specializations in the sense of 3rd Edition specialist wizards; choosing one doesn't make the spells belonging to another unavailable to you. Basically they're a mechanism by which we answer the question, "How did your wizard learn magic? Was he trained in a magical academy, tutored by a single mentor, etc., etc." So each order provides a subset a spells your character is *best* at, but doesn't replace the notion of spell school from previous editions."
Why do I feel that Mage: The Ascension has found a new home?
* Implements: "Wizard implements now provide your character with a reason to care about a signature weapon in much the same way that the fighter cares about a signature sword. We think it's a good thing. Many other implements have been suggested, including things such as mask, dagger, and (of course) tome."
Foci!
# On spell selection: "Every class gets cool "non-attack" power choices as well as attack power choices. Wizards will still be able to cast spells such as Disguise Self, Jump, or Levitate. It's true that we'd like to "narrow" wizards a bit, and save (for example) some illusion spells for an honest-to-gosh Illusionist class down the road, or necromancy spells for a Necromancer. But wizards will still "splash" at least a few of the iconic powers in these themes of magic. For example, wizards still have Invisibility available to them. But when the Illusionist class comes around, he'll have better Invisibility options."
Not sure what to make of this. I like simple combat.
Magic Items
# To the question of whether XP will be required to make magic items Andy Collins replied, "No, Hell No." How magic items will be made in character wasn't discussed beyond a vague statement that you wouldn't be burning a feat on it, and out of character the structure of magic item creation will become more loosened.
That's relieving, but Artificers no longer make sense.
Spells
"Certain spells are gone, period (wish for sure)."
Not at MY table.
Monsters
Turn Undead still exists in 4e; "that power doesn’t send the zombies running off to gods knows where, but if it doesn’t turn them to putrid dust, it does hold them at bay."
I never did quite like this, because a bunch of undead running away never seemed like a good thing.
Monstrous races? Can you still make kobold barbarians? "We’re not going to put limitations on the way we build monsters to make them work right. We know there are monsters that will become player character races. For example, it will be obvious how to play a goblin PC right out of the monster manual and PH." (source).
This changes things dramatically for Obould and company.
Monsters no longer drain XP (implied no draining of levels?)
And there was much rejoicing.
Fiends
- Devils are angels who rebelled. They rose up against the deity they served and murdered him. The crime of deicide is unimaginably perverse for angels, and hence devils were cursed and imprisoned in the Nine Hells.
Ehhhh, I'm sure a lot of people will hate this. Frankly, I already used this origin for Asmodeus (he's deliberately Satan in all respects), so it's not that big of a problem.
- The Nine Hells are what became of the murdered deity's divine realm after his death. The Hells are the devils' prison, and it is difficult for them to get out without mortal aid.
Who imprisoned them though?
- We've re-sorted demons and devils a bit, since we want these two categories of monsters to make a little more sense. Devils tend to be more humanoid in form, usually fight with weapons, and often wear armor. Most have horns, wings, and tails. One consequence of this: the erinyes and the succubus were holding down pretty similar territory, so we've decided that they're the same monster, called the succubus, and it's a devil.
I wonder if the Blood War will exists in any significant capacity? Probably not.
- Ice devils don't look like other devils. We've decided that they are actually a demonic/yugoloth race... one that was entrapped by Mephistopheles long ago in an infernal contract. So ice devils hate other devils, retain their insect-like appearance, and have a special loyalty to Mephistopheles. It's one of the reasons why Asmodeus has never chosen to move against Mephistopheles. Asmodeus would of course win if he did, but that would let the ice devils out of their contract.
A Greater God doesn't punish a mortal because of Ice Devils? Dumb.
- The devils are cunning manipulators, seeking to gain influence among mortals, whereas demons are "savage and fearless engines of annihilation". The demon lords still exist, there's no structure or hierarchy there any more.
Demogorgon never seemed to realize he ruled the Abyss anyway.
Nifty Bits
Action points are core. They do different stuff than Star Wars force points and Eberron action points.
Awesome.
Hit Points
On saves vs. massive damage -- "You may have to make a Fort save or suffer penalties for the rest of the day, but you will not die from massive damage unless it drops you to -10."
Good job.
Social Interaction
# Rules for non-combat encounters. The example given was social interaction. Unlike 3E, where negotiation amounts to a single Diplomacy check, it's treated almost like a combat in 4E. Ari Marmell's blog -- "Social encounters. For those who don't just want to RP such things without some mechanical impact, the game has rules for non-combat encounters. The example given was social interaction. Unlike 3E, where negotiation amounts to a single Diplomacy check, it's treated almost like a combat in 4E. I make a skill check, but I also tell the DM what/how I'm doing. The opponent responds with behavior (and a check) of his own. I counter with a new check, and new words. And so forth."
Exalted?! What the hell are you doing here!?
Stuff I hate
In case you're wondering, Asmodeus won't be joining Orcus in the new MM because, as I previously hinted, the Lord of the Ninth is getting a promotion to god status in 4E. His holy (unholy?) symbol will be among those appearing in the Player's Handbook"
Ah crap, Asmodeus is enslaved by Bane in my games. This will disrupt things.
# Drow are a type of fey.
WHICH MAKES NO
sense!# Forgotten Realms will be the first setting released (Forgotten Realms campaign setting: August 2008.)
There's a Date now.
* 'Points of light in a dark world' does NOT refer to existing settings -- "One quick point of clarification I'd like to make... Don't assume that we're going to apply the 'Points of Light' conceit to existing campaign worlds. I think Realms and Eberron would prosper if they got just a little more points-of-lightish, but we're not going to overthrow worlds with that much breadth and history."
Interesting.
However, he contradicts it later.
Some old ones.
# Ed Greenwood working on the 4E FRCS. He has been hired to write 50,000 words for the book.
Which is always good.
# On the FR pantheon: "Yes, we'd like a smaller pantheon in FR. However, that doesn't mean that three-quarters of the deities will kick off. It does mean that we're looking at a lot of marginal deities and asking ourselves, "Could this deity be a demigod--a divine figure who doesn't really have a continent-wide church with dozens of temples devoted to him or her?" For example, we like a lot of the demihuman deities as demigods who hang around with/work for the real heavy hitters like Moradin or Corellon."
It'll not impact the Seldarine I suppose except in the scope that Shevaresh should not try and pick a fight with Lolth.
Rich Baker on whether the new core cosmology will be adopted for FR: "I'm sure this is probably more than I ought to say right now, but yes....Of course, the particular astral dominions that will exist in Faerun's cosmology will correspond to the Realms pantheon. So you'll see Arvandor, House of the Triad, Warrior's Rest, etc., as shaken up by events of the Spellplague (no more Dweomerheart, for example)....Faerie's been touched on several times in Realmslore (for example, Elaine's novels). The Shadowfell and Plane of Shadow are pretty much the same thing. The Inner Planes are getting resorted to the Elemental Chaos, but no one ever went there before anyway, so it should be fine. We've got some details to work out on the interaction of the Fugue Plane with all this, but other than that, the new cosmology is going to be Faerun's cosmology."
Nice assumption no one ever owned "The Inner Planes" Rich.
# Chris Perkins has a lengthy blog update. He mentions that "the Spellplague is an event that allows us to incorporate 4th Edition elements into the existing scheme of the world" and that "there are things about the Spellplague that we deliberately haven't revealed". He also recommends that people check out the hints in the "Unsolved Mysteries of D&D" article in Dragon #359, and comments on a post where somebody picks up on the hints (the current theory is that this is the post).
This is the post.
My newest theory, BTW, is that Abeir is the part of Toril that had advance up until the time of the Sundering. When the Elves High Magic Ritual reached back in time and changed the way the world formed, it actually created a divergent timeline (Toril). So we have two seprate FR's, and they will come crashing back together again when magic fails, causing a veritable 'Merging of two worlds'.
With that, they can cover any changes they wish to make, and modify canon as they see fit.
Anything could have arisen on that alternate Faerûn; Different magical traditions, new or different gods, Warforged, Changelings, Elves may have been called something else, Gnomes may never have achieved a place of prominence amongst the other races, Demons and Devils may have evolved into different creatures entirely...
You see, using existing canon, one can go back and litterally 'erase' canon.
Christ, I hope not.
# More importantly, he lists ten things you should know about the 4E Forgotten Realms. Check out the blog for the actual text (each of these gets a paragraph or so), but here's the basic message he's putting out:
* It feels like FR but uses 4E mechanics. They're not ignoring canon, rewriting history or blowing up large parts of the setting.
* 4E FR embraces, at least in part, the "points of light" concept.
* In 4E FR, the PCs matter, not the uber-NPCs.
* FR novels will remain part of the FR canon.
* Running 4E adventures doesn't require a masters degree in FR history.
* The pantheon will be smaller.
* Elminster, Drizzt and other NPCs are still part of FR.
* They started writing the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide in early 2006.
* FR will get lots of support (Insider, official wiki, online tools).
* Various people were involved with 4E FR.
Official Wiki= Awesome if it doesn't suck.
Ooops, I guess there's no need for a part 3.
Yes, they're all building to that date.
Why that specific date, and not a later date? That's my point...
But let's discuss the changes above
-Don't know exactly what the "Vancian" Magic system is, but I do like the current, 3e system. Everybody has their limits.
-Wish must remain. It's iconic.
-Don't like any of that stuff with Devils and whatnot. If a deity was killed, his/her/its domain should have collapsed, not imprisoned beings.
-I don't necessarily see the point in "forcing" the setting to become a 'Points of Light' setting if it doesn't fit the mold currently.
-I don't like "trimming" the various pantheons, without a valid reason. Most of the deities they (seemingly) want to do away with are relativley minor, so they might as well just leave 'em alone.
-Don't like any of that 'Abeir' stuff. Personally, I think that it's pretty dumb. The planet is Abeir-Toril, is has always been Abeir-Toril, and will continue to be Abeir-Toril. Just because we're all too lazy to constantly type 'Abeir-Toril' doesn't mean that anything is different.
It seems they're sticking with Spell Slots and probably will allow you to "trade down" though like they flirted with Clerics doing at one point. So, you could probably cast 9 Magic Missiles for one Meteor Swarm.
But let's discuss the changes above
Ok as I have said before I don't see the reasons for the changes at all. All I see is that I will have a lot of work for if I do convert to 4th. Which I am not entirely sure if I want to checking out the Star Wars sage system if the talent trees and skill system are the same as that I'll probably skip this edition. Maybe the next one will have a broader appeal.
Well the next edition will probably be 10 years down the road, they seem to update it every half decade or so.
My guess we'll see "Classic D&D" or "Classic FR" (heck if I were them I would have the spellplague and all the other stuff happen about 500 years in the future...that way if it is going badly for them they can go back in time....and write it off as a alternative timeline) in about 3 years at the most(Meaning 4th edition rule with the older flavor).
Though I think it is funny you are thinking Ten years as the 'usualy' update every half decade. A event happening once isn't usualy...if you look at the pattern I will probably place 5th editrion around the 6 to 7 years.
Vacian, FYI, is the "Spell Slot" system where you cast a spell and you forget it so that you have to memorize it the next day. You know, the D&D base system since Day 1.
-Gotcha. I figured thats what it was. Why do people apparently hate it, according to what Mike Mearls said? I have no problems with it. :: Shrugs ::
Ok as I have said before I don't see the reasons for the changes at all.
-Rules do need to be changed every once and a while, to make sure things don't get stale. I mean, if the rules of D&D stayed the same since the game was created? Well, I don't think it would be much fun. Ever see those early edition rules? Blech. Making changes to canon? Well, it isn't a static setting, so things do need to happen. If only things were spread out a little more, and handled a bit more appropriatley.
-Rules do need to be changed every once and a while, to make sure things don't get stale. I mean, if the rules of D&D stayed the same since the game was created? Well, I don't think it would be much fun. Ever see those early edition rules? Blech. Making changes to canon? Well, it isn't a static setting, so things do need to happen. If only things were spread out a little more, and handled a bit more appropriatley.
I agree I mean the changes they are making, not changes in general.
I doubt it, frankly I do think this is better than the Old System. I hated the Great Tree and most of these changes reflect how I think that D&D SHOULD work. However, just because it's BETTER doesn't necessarilly mean that it should be changed.
This is the entire problem with these changes is the attitude that "this is the way D&D should work". Sorry but I don't think there is a right way to play D&D...as long as everybody is having fun I really don't care how you play the game.
Also I am curious what kept you from running D&D the way you think it should be played in in 3.x and 2nd?(I would ask about 1st also but you have said previously that you weren't playing during 1st edition). I open this question to anyone really...what rule pretty much stopped you from playing D&D?
Because I never had any problems...each new edition added stuf to D&D in my opinion which made it better(for the most part)...4th edition seems to be about whole sale cutting of things...
I agree I mean the changes they are making, not changes in general.
Well, here's my take.
1. I don't like the Vanciean system and will be glad it's gone. A more free form magical system where wizards don't feel guilty for memorizing Phantom Steed will be better.
They're adding panache.
2. The FR cosmology should never have been divorced from the Great Wheel. This is the best fix that satisfies the most people.
3. I like that they're firmly dividing Devils and Demons so that they're more clearly different creatures.
4. The fact that Paladins will be able to be any alignment for their gods is a long overdue change.
5. It's already the case that Elves were kicked out of Fairyland and stripped of their magical power in Forgotten Realms.
So, good for canon for catching up.
6. Whats the difference exactly between a Demipower of ridiculously high stats and a God that he answers to?
If they removed all of the gods and instead just used stats for Archdevils instead, there would be no appreciable difference to most people in the Realms.
7. Social "Combat" is a good way of handling more interactive styles than 'I swing my sword and kill it'
Good for them.
8. The changes to magic item creation are good. Who the Hell LOSES knowledge for making items?
There was a Dork Tower about this.
9. Asmodeus has a greater role in the setting. That's good because Asmodeus is a ED GREENWOOD creation (albeit, an adaptation of Satan and Jewish folklore)
10. I never liked the massive damage rules.
This is the entire problem with these changes is the attitude that "this is the way D&D should work". Sorry but I don't think there is a right way to play D&D...as long as everybody is having fun I really don't care how you play the game.
Very well, I wasn't having fun with canon. I had to stick with something that was less fun for me because my players knew it better and we played Paladins like they were written despite thinking it and a great deal else was silly (Vancian magic). Why? Because it was a common format we shared.
This makes it more fun.
Also I am curious what kept you from running D&D the way you think it should be played in in 3.x and 2nd?(I would ask about 1st also but you have said previously that you weren't playing during 1st edition). I open this question to anyone really...what rule pretty much stopped you from playing D&D?
Because it's a pain in the
to keep track of all of the changes you would make in order to get everything working the way you want it to. The books are an easy bit of reference material that my players can consult without me.1. I don't like the Vanciean system and will be glad it's gone. A more free form magical system where wizards don't feel guilty for memorizing Phantom Steed will be better.
They're adding panache.
While the D&D old magic system had problems it is one of the best magic system in any RPG to date. As to a wizards feeling guilty for memorizing Phantom Steed...well one he is blaming himself too much for it and two you mean planning ahead is a bad thing?
2. The FR cosmology should never have been divorced from the Great Wheel. This is the best fix that satisfies the most people.
I agree except we are empathicaly not getting the Great Wheel...we are getting the Astral Soup.
3. I like that they're firmly dividing Devils and Demons so that they're more clearly different creatures.
Actualy to me they were always very different creatures. Now they are just dumb downed.
4. The fact that Paladins will be able to be any alignment for their gods is a long overdue change.
Um since way back in 1st edition though out there has always been this option...this is nothing new. Also this change probably has more to do with them dumbing down the alignment system.
5. It's already the case that Elves were kicked out of Fairyland and stripped of their magical power in Forgotten Realms.
So, good for canon for catching up.
Um...what? Also just a side note fey have nothing to do with arcane magic or nature for that matter.
6. Whats the difference exactly between a Demipower of ridiculously high stats and a God that he answers to?
If they removed all of the gods and instead just used stats for Archdevils instead, there would be no appreciable difference to most people in the Realms.
Except if well that god is dead...also personaly I think stating gods is just stupid and uneccessary. If a DM wantsd to run a game where the players are fighting gods he should come up with those stats himself.
Also loosing options is never a good thing.
7. Social "Combat" is a good way of handling more interactive styles than 'I swing my sword and kill it'
Good for them.
That is called roll-playing...
8. The changes to magic item creation are good. Who the Hell LOSES knowledge for making items?
True magic item creation and the exact defination of experience point was a little clunky, but you are wrong experience points represent life energy in a way(that is why energy draining monsters drained levels) and knowledge. Since you can't spend Expeirence below the lervel you have attained you actualy don't loose knowledge. It is a balance and good system as it allowed players make magic items and actualy pay something that actualy has meaning to the player...
Also since we really don't have magic items I really can't say what effect making a magic item would have...
9. Asmodeus has a greater role in the setting. That's good because Asmodeus is a ED GREENWOOD creation (albeit, an adaptation of Satan and Jewish folklore).
???? Where did you get this from???? Asmodeus was not a Ed Greenwood creation. He was in the 1st edition Monster Manual.
10. I never liked the massive damage rules.
Actualy I like it because it make the game leathal at higher levels which is better then a bunch of players wading though stuff unrealisticaly.
That is called roll-playing...
No, it's really not.
???? Where did you get this from???? Asmodeus was not a Ed Greenwood creation. He was in the 1st edition Monster Manual.
Forgotten Realms is 1st Edition too. Check the old Dragon Magazines for Ed Greenwood's first articles on the Nine Hells.
Um since way back in 1st edition though out there has always been this option...this is nothing new. Also this change probably has more to do with them dumbing down the alignment system.
From what I've read, the Alignment system is being explicitly "Smartened up" so that it better reflects Role-playing as opposed to Hack'N'Slash. If you're going to make accusations, how about explaining how they're "Dumbing it down."
Um...what? Also just a side note fey have nothing to do with arcane magic or nature for that matter.
You know that Elves come from Fairie in the Realms, right? They were formerly Outsiders. :rolls eyes:
Except if well that god is dead...also personaly I think stating gods is just stupid and uneccessary. If a DM wantsd to run a game where the players are fighting gods he should come up with those stats himself.
There's ample time to RPG when Mystra is alive or she can be brought back. Frankly, she wasn't exactly that necessary of a goddess to begin with.
True magic item creation and the exact defination of experience point was a little clunky, but you are wrong experience points represent life energy in a way(that is why energy draining monsters drained levels) and knowledge. Since you can't spend Expeirence below the lervel you have attained you actualy don't loose knowledge. It is a balance and good system as it allowed players make magic items and actualy pay something that actualy has meaning to the player...
I still found it to be pretty darn silly. I prefer that Magical Items be allowed to be created by finding the ingredients, making a craft roll, and casting the necessary spells to do so. The EXP penalties just encouraged players not to make them.
Actualy I like it because it make the game leathal at higher levels which is better then a bunch of players wading though stuff unrealisticaly.
Yes, because a man who takes 200 arrows inflicting six damage is so much more realistic than a guy hurting from 300 HP at once.
They should save that for Call of Cthulhu.
We now have information we can discuss specifically point by point.
No, it's really not.
Anytime rolling dice replaces you role-playing your character that is called Roll-playing in my book and that is what has been descibed to me.
Sure you can bring up Dipolmacy and Bluff...except if you read bluff it only will fool a target for about a minute and well diplomacy is a very small thing that at best ?I use as a shortcut.
Anything that makes a character be all about numbers and math is a very bad thing for a Role-Playing game.
Forgotten Realms is 1st Edition too. Check the old Dragon Magazines for Ed Greenwood's first articles on the Nine Hells.
Sure it is...but I think the Monster Manuel outdates the FR by about 10 years...and probably Dragon magazine by atleast 5 years(though I am not sure about the exact dates of the 1st Dragon magazine, though if it helps the Monster Manuel was published in 1977).
So how is it the Ed created Asmodeus? I mean he was already the ruler of Nine Hells before the FR.
C'mon, ease up on Charles a bit there, he said from the beginning of that post that it was his take on things, not some absolute interpretation of what we know of the ruleset. You don't agree with him, cool, you don't have to, but he, and everyone else for that matter, is entitled to his own opinions.
Actualy I simply left it as I disagree with them about it. He went on to expand on it so I did too. We are both expressing opinion here. If he is bothered about I'll stop.
Anything that makes a character be all about numbers and math is a very bad thing for a Role-Playing game.
I don't use it often myself but I've often found it an interesting tool for livening up encounters that would be otherwise somewhat dull. In friendly situations with NPCs can be RPGed out on their own but I like to insist on diplomacy checks when dealing with hostile audiences because it forces players to realize that they can't always rely on a friendly reaction even when they're doing well.
I, of course, add hefty modifiers for good RPGing and points.
Social Combat will probably be interesting to a lot of people who are not very good at setting up encounters and will help witty conversation and RPGing function.
So how is it the Ed created Asmodeus? I mean he was already the ruler of Nine Hells before the FR.
Like Elaith Craulnobler and Elaine, he was greatly expanded by Ed's work.
Actualy I simply left it as I disagree with them about it. He went on to expand on it so I did too. We are both expressing opinion here. If he is bothered about I'll stop.
Yeah, it's alright. I just want to throw some counter points out.
From what I've read, the Alignment system is being explicitly "Smartened up" so that it better reflects Role-playing as opposed to Hack'N'Slash. If you're going to make accusations, how about explaining how they're "Dumbing it down."
Actualy from what I have read they are changing it...that is all they have said. Also I am sorry but the alignment system was great for RPing. Sure you could run aropund as a paladin and kill everything that looked evil...but if you did that in my game you would loose you paladin hood and probably end up in jail or worse. Any system they come up will be able to be used for hack n' slash. Hack n' slash or RPing had nothing to do with the rules and everything to do with the DM and the group.
You know that Elves come from Fairie in the Realms, right? They were formerly Outsiders. :rolls eyes:
Actualy that has been a recent addition to 'canon' to explain them changing elves. Before they came probably from a Prime Material world with strong connection to the Seelie and Unseelie courts. They were never outsiders...or if they were then Humans, halflings, dwarves, orcs, etc are all outsiders too.
There's ample time to RPG when Mystra is alive or she can be brought back. Frankly, she wasn't exactly that necessary of a goddess to begin with.
Again you seem not to be understanding me....I explain after a bit.
I still found it to be pretty darn silly. I prefer that Magical Items be allowed to be created by finding the ingredients, making a craft roll, and casting the necessary spells to do so. The EXP penalties just encouraged players not to make them.
I think actualy a ingredients system would be cool...but we don't know if that is what wqe are getting. Though I have always used a system that allowed players to substitue rare ingredients for magic items.
Though I'll say this since they seem to moving towards less magic items I think the new system will discourage players more.
Yes, because a man who takes 200 arrows inflicting six damage is so much more realistic than a guy hurting from 300 HP at once.
They should save that for Call of Cthulhu.
I don't get your example....and I don't play Call of Cthuhu...
But yes people do die from shock from massive trauma...
Also I said it gets high level players to act more realistic as in they just don't laugh at the 200' fall because well there is a fort save at the end that will be not easy to make(atleast with my optional rule for massive damage.)
As to my point before in your game you can kill every god you want and that is fine...and in my game I can make 100's of more gods...that is fine also. I'll never really critize what anybody does in their game. I might ask questions and give ideas and at worst just a personal opinion of I dislike it...
Now back to my point before:
The Game Designers shouldn't be doing anything to remove options not because I think it is wrong or stupid. Heck personaly if I was in charge my FR game will just be as different from canon as it was before GHotR. It is just bad bussiness to turn a game that was limits of Your imagination to the limits of their imagination. Which I think D&D 4th edition and the Realms especialy have been about.
I don't use it often myself but I've often found it an interesting tool for livening up encounters that would be otherwise somewhat dull. In friendly situations with NPCs can be RPGed out on their own but I like to insist on diplomacy checks when dealing with hostile audiences because it forces players to realize that they can't always rely on a friendly reaction even when they're doing well.
I, of course, add hefty modifiers for good RPGing and points.
Social Combat will probably be interesting to a lot of people who are not very good at setting up encounters and will help witty conversation and RPGing function.
How will it help witty conversation and Role-playing by hiding behind dice? I am sorry but not having dice being involved has personaly help me over come my shyness and helped sharpen my wit. Personaly I perfer to keep dice rolls to a minimal outside of combat.
Like Elaith Craulnobler and Elaine, he was greatly expanded by Ed's work.
What issue did this article appear in? If I can I'll check it out myself.
But that is besides the point the Great Wheel cosmolgy and the inhabinets of it were always in D&D. While Ed might have published a article on Asmodeus I have always based his him on how I have handled him myself and the infomation on him thoughout the various editions of the game. Him becoming a core god I can deal with. I just disagree with you on who gets the design credits on him.
Yeah, it's alright. I just want to throw some counter points out.
Which I think is a good thing. It is more constructive then the endless whines about people judging things without seeing them.
Actualy from what I have read they are changing it...that is all they have said. Also I am sorry but the alignment system was great for RPing. Sure you could run aropund as a paladin and kill everything that looked evil...but if you did that in my game you would loose you paladin hood and probably end up in jail or worse. Any system they come up will be able to be used for hack n' slash. Hack n' slash or RPing had nothing to do with the rules and everything to do with the DM and the group.
Well, here's what they had to say at that thread...
"It’s not going to be what it is now. Alignment is part of the story, part of the character. It is a useful shorthand, but too many books and too many players mistake it for limitation. We want to treat alignment as something bigger than that. We won’t get rid of it, but we don’t want it to be a replacement for character and personality."
Actualy that has been a recent addition to 'canon' to explain them changing elves. Before they came probably from a Prime Material world with strong connection to the Seelie and Unseelie courts. They were never outsiders...or if they were then Humans, halflings, dwarves, orcs, etc are all outsiders too.
True, I suppose I have a hard time thinking of 8 years ago at the latest being "recent"
Though I'll say this since they seem to moving towards less magic items I think the new system will discourage players more.
I read it as that magic items will be encouraged to be unique devices as opposed to mass produced Examples.
But yes people do die from shock from massive trauma...
That's what a sudden loss of all your hit points can do.
As to my point before in your game you can kill every god you want and that is fine...and in my game I can make 100's of more gods...that is fine also. I'll never really critize what anybody does in their game. I might ask questions and give ideas and at worst just a personal opinion of I dislike it...
Actually John, I don't use stats for the gods in my game. In any physical contest between PCs, a God will automatically destroy PCs. Mystra was flatly described as a 60th level Mage in our Time of Troubles campaign she attacked Helm, I ruled that he swatted her like an insect without any difficulty.
The PCs may destroy Gargauth in this campaign that I'm currently running but that will be solely because of the intervention of a deity and their use of the Rod of Seven Parts. I just dislike games that treat FR deities as distant and remote when its explicitly a game where their larger than life personalities matter.
It's why I don't play Exalted. I can't get into the idea of people fighting Gods physically.
The Game Designers shouldn't be doing anything to remove options not because I think it is wrong or stupid. Heck personaly if I was in charge my FR game will just be as different from canon as it was before GHotR. It is just bad bussiness to turn a game that was limits of Your imagination to the limits of their imagination. Which I think D&D 4th edition and the Realms especialy have been about.
They're quite explicitly adding more options, actually, John Kretzer. The Great Sea may sound like a pretty stupid mix at first glance but now there's Mount Celestia AND the House of the Triad plus room for any other dimensions that I may choose to place in my game setting. No longer do I need to explain "And now you're in the Beastlands" or "Mechanus" or whatever.
It's just there.
Likewise, Social Combat also adds new options and theyr'e also vastly broadening the types of magic that can work along with what people can do in combat according to the rules. They also seem to be strengthening the importance of skills.
So why is it that that bothers me so much?
It almost sounds like we have suddenly become on the same page - the rules changes sound good and interesting, while MAJOR changes to the Realms themselves are unneccesary and heavy-handed.
For the most part D&D's rules are guidelines to be bent in the interest of the storyline of the GM. So if the changes in the timeline for the Realms does not appeal to you as a GM/ DM then just have an alternate timeline where most of the events that ruin your storyline just don't occur. That is what I am doing with my campaign. In my timeline I include the war between Luskan and Neverwinter from the original NWN digital game, I just have a hard time placing it within the timeline of the Realms, so I am going to look at the copyright dates of the books and have that be the equivalent date on Earth to figure out the times of the events of NWN and its main modules. Now I understand that NWN is not canon to many, but the main thing all GM/ DMs need to remember is that your campaign is your campaign and not Ed Greenwoods or anyone elses so divert from the base timeline when ever it interferes with the storyline of your campaign
NWN1 occurred in 1372, at least according to in-game dates.
I find myself agreeing with Mr.Phipps on almost every single point.
So why is it that that bothers me so much?
It almost sounds like we have suddenly become on the same page - the rules changes sound good and interesting, while MAJOR changes to the Realms themselves are unneccesary and heavy-handed.
It is strange isn't it? I'll have to say something radical and defensive.
:-)
Well, here's what they had to say at that thread...
"It’s not going to be what it is now. Alignment is part of the story, part of the character. It is a useful shorthand, but too many books and too many players mistake it for limitation. We want to treat alignment as something bigger than that. We won’t get rid of it, but we don’t want it to be a replacement for character and personality."
So it looks like they aren't going to change it...or they are going to dumb it down so that those players who treat it as a limition will stop doing that.
True, I suppose I have a hard time thinking of 8 years ago at the latest being "recent".
Hey I disagreed with it back then but I atleast had the option of ignoring it back then as it wasn't hardwired into the mechanics. Also as you get older 8 years will become recent to you perhaps.
I read it as that magic items will be encouraged to be unique devices as opposed to mass produced Examples.
Shrug personaly I am with holding any strong opinions on it till I actualy see it. I am not going to take their word that it is a improvement. Though in my games there was never mass production of magic items.
That's what a sudden loss of all your hit points can do.
And that is why you have to make a fort save when you loose a massive amounts of hit points.
Actually John, I don't use stats for the gods in my game. In any physical contest between PCs, a God will automatically destroy PCs. Mystra was flatly described as a 60th level Mage in our Time of Troubles campaign she attacked Helm, I ruled that he swatted her like an insect without any difficulty.
The PCs may destroy Gargauth in this campaign that I'm currently running but that will be solely because of the intervention of a deity and their use of the Rod of Seven Parts. I just dislike games that treat FR deities as distant and remote when its explicitly a game where their larger than life personalities matter.
It's why I don't play Exalted. I can't get into the idea of people fighting Gods physically.
That is fine...I don't treat them as distant or remote either. Also I agree with you personaly PCs should not be fighting gods with even a chance at winning unless there is a very strong reason for them doing so...their avartars is another issue altogether though.
They're quite explicitly adding more options, actually, John Kretzer. The Great Sea may sound like a pretty stupid mix at first glance but now there's Mount Celestia AND the House of the Triad plus room for any other dimensions that I may choose to place in my game setting. No longer do I need to explain "And now you're in the Beastlands" or "Mechanus" or whatever.
It's just there.
Um there was always Mt. Celestia and the House of Triad....
I also don't understand "No longer do I need to explain "And now you're in the Beastlands" or "Mechanus" or whatever". Why would that be a issue in the Great Wheel. Also though getting lost in the planes can make a great adventure.
Likewise, Social Combat also adds new options and theyr'e also vastly broadening the types of magic that can work along with what people can do in combat according to the rules. They also seem to be strengthening the importance of skills.
"Social Combat" will never be a good thing in my book. I am sorry but playing in systems with similar systems just really breaks the 4th wall for me. Also adding rules never add options.
As to the types of magic again I'll with hold judgement on it till I see it...I just don't see the need to change this drasiticaly.
(Sidenote you can just call me John...you don't have to call me John Kretzer)
What else is new Alediran? Spellcasters are always the ones who take it up where the sun doesn't shine first... can't have the fighters crying for their maters afterall... stupid hulking brutes... not the fault of mages that they're too stupid to figure out magic.
Don't worry as caster will be broken by the first splat book if they are not broken in the PHB.
Well, here's my take.
1. I don't like the Vanciean system and will be glad it's gone. A more free form magical system where wizards don't feel guilty for memorizing Phantom Steed will be better.
They're adding panache.
-What's so horrible about it? I think the idea that you can only cast a limited number of spells per day, knowing more of the minor ones than the major ones, it pretty realistic and all.
4. The fact that Paladins will be able to be any alignment for their gods is a long overdue change.
-Well, the definition of the "gaming" Paladin is a LG holy warrior, but that's besides the point- they already have variants to fit the different alignments out there.
If they removed all of the gods and instead just used stats for Archdevils instead, there would be no appreciable difference to most people in the Realms.
-They shouldn't of given them stats to begin with. That's one thing I hope 4e doesn't make the mistake of doing again.
It almost sounds like we have suddenly become on the same page - the rules changes sound good and interesting, while MAJOR changes to the Realms themselves are unneccesary and heavy-handed.
-That's what we've been saying mostly from the start. The majority of us aren't necessarily interested in the rule changes. We're interested in the lore changes.
So it looks like they aren't going to change it...or they are going to dumb it down so that those players who treat it as a limition will stop doing that.
You do realize they're explicitly moving away from "evil, kill it." Really, the new D&D is apparently going to be targetted to a slightly older and less hack'n'slash crowd. Really, John, you are SERIOUSLY reaching.
Of all the things D&D 4E is going to be, dumbed down is not it. Frankly, it's bizarre maneuvers and so on seemed too dumbed up. Frankly, I prefer simplicity in combat rather than keeping track of 90 Combos and moves.
This isn't Streetfighter.
Hey I disagreed with it back then but I atleast had the option of ignoring it back then as it wasn't hardwired into the mechanics. Also as you get older 8 years will become recent to you perhaps.
I'm 27, so I don't exactly think I'm on the blazing trail end of gamers.
Shrug personaly I am with holding any strong opinions on it till I actualy see it. I am not going to take their word that it is a improvement. Though in my games there was never mass production of magic items.
Not everyone's games is so refined.
And that is why you have to make a fort save when you loose a massive amounts of hit points.
It was awkward in my campaigns and disruptive.
Um there was always Mt. Celestia and the House of Triad....
Mount Celestia didn't exist in 3E Realms.
I also don't understand "No longer do I need to explain "And now you're in the Beastlands" or "Mechanus" or whatever". Why would that be a issue in the Great Wheel. Also though getting lost in the planes can make a great adventure.
The Great Wheel hasn't been a factor in Realms since 3E and I never liked it that much to begin with. I was a Big Tree Advocate, I just liked the options for more plains that the Great Sea advocates.
"Social Combat" will never be a good thing in my book. I am sorry but playing in systems with similar systems just really breaks the 4th wall for me. Also adding rules never add options.
Then I just think you're wrong. Rules add options all the time.
As to the types of magic again I'll with hold judgement on it till I see it...I just don't see the need to change this drasiticaly.
It's a long overdue change IMHO.
-What's so horrible about it? I think the idea that you can only cast a limited number of spells per day, knowing more of the minor ones than the major ones, it pretty realistic and all.
The justification that you lose your knowledge of a spell everytime you cast it is just bizarre. For me, I prefer a Mana point based system or White Wolf's Thaumaturgy where you can perform an unlimited amount of rituals.
-Well, the definition of the "gaming" Paladin is a LG holy warrior, but that's besides the point- they already have variants to fit the different alignments out there.
They also had Monster PC classes since The Known World Gazeteers. That doesn't mean that it isn't better that it's built into the Core.
-They shouldn't of given them stats to begin with. That's one thing I hope 4e doesn't make the mistake of doing again.
I didn't buy Legends and Lore or Faiths & Avatars til recently because I honestly didn't think they'd have value with the idea they didn't have stats. The deities SHOULD be statted, even if I don't use them myself. It's a bit strange but I consider it symbolic even if Deities will always win in my campaigns.
It help symbolizes they're not invincible.
-That's what we've been saying mostly from the start. The majority of us aren't necessarily interested in the rule changes. We're interested in the lore changes.
Oddly, my biggest concern is that they handle the in-game rules changes in a manner that is interesting and not too disruptive. The Realms "All Assassins in the Realms are dead now" was the most egrevious offense til "All Tremere Antribu are dead."
I mean really, what did you expect?
A pension and a Gold Watch?
The justification that you lose your knowledge of a spell everytime you cast it is just bizarre. For me, I prefer a Mana point based system or White Wolf's Thaumaturgy where you can perform an unlimited amount of rituals.
-With an unlimited amount of spells/rituals/etc., magic-casting characters become even more "overpowered" than they already are. And, think of the rammifications of unlimited spellcasting in the Realms- the Red Wizards immediatley come to mind.
-Now, I'm not saying that some alternative to the current spellcasting system can't make spellcasting better. For example, I like the Psionic rules, what, with power points, and all of those things. I based a set of rules of my own (The Ki System) off of those rules.
They also had Monster PC classes since The Known World Gazeteers. That doesn't mean that it isn't better that it's built into the Core.
-Alternative Paladin classes are built in, with Blackguards, and then with those classes in DRAGON. You just need to go..."fishing".
I didn't buy Legends and Lore or Faiths & Avatars til recently because I honestly didn't think they'd have value with the idea they didn't have stats. The deities SHOULD be statted, even if I don't use them myself. It's a bit strange but I consider it symbolic even if Deities will always win in my campaigns.
It help symbolizes they're not invincible.
-Don't have Legends and Lore, but Faiths and Avatars is a fine book.
-I am under the belief that, while deities are not invincible, they are beyond the ken of mortals to "defeat" under normal circumstances. Giving deities official stats, I think, makes them less like...well, deities, and more like Epic Characters (Which they are, in a way). If a DM wanted his party to take on a deity, he/she should be tasked with creating stats. But again, that's just me.
Oddly, my biggest concern is that they handle the in-game rules changes in a manner that is interesting and not too disruptive.
-That's all of our hopes.
-With an unlimited amount of spells/rituals/etc., magic-casting characters become even more "overpowered" than they already are. And, think of the rammifications of unlimited spellcasting in the Realms- the Red Wizards immediatley come to mind.
The Red Wizards are matched by the Simbul, the Elves of Agarlarond, and the Rashemmi. Frankly, they're also a den of vipers that I would put the Zhents even odds on defeating by themselves.
And unlimited Spellcasting worked fairly well in other settings like White Wolf as well as Star Wars D6. Most likely, Wizards will instead be limited by the Spell Slot system but in a less hampering manner.
-Now, I'm not saying that some alternative to the current spellcasting system can't make spellcasting better. For example, I like the Psionic rules, what, with power points, and all of those things. I based a set of rules of my own (The Ki System) off of those rules.
I'm not terribly fond of psionics but something more akin to it would be appreciated. My players love psionics despite my distaste.
-Alternative Paladin classes are built in, with Blackguards, and then with those classes in DRAGON. You just need to go..."fishing".
Now we won't have to because the Paladin will be available for all alignments at the start.
You do realize they're explicitly moving away from "evil, kill it." Really, the new D&D is apparently going to be targetted to a slightly older and less hack'n'slash crowd. Really, John, you are SERIOUSLY reaching.
Actualy I am not 'reaching' here from what I saw it is going to ber more black and white world with very little shades of grey. Though it is pure speculation on both of our parts
Of all the things D&D 4E is going to be, dumbed down is not it. Frankly, it's bizarre maneuvers and so on seemed too dumbed up. Frankly, I prefer simplicity in combat rather than keeping track of 90 Combos and moves.
This isn't Streetfighter.
Seems to me that this a counter to your statement that the game is not targeting the hack n' slash crowd and a younger crowd. As this combat systems seems catered to that crowd.
It was awkward in my campaigns and disruptive.
Then you don't have to use it. It is a minor rule with a couple of optional rules...maybe a page worth. The social combats rules which will restrict the way my group RPs will be alot more to just ignore.
Mount Celestia didn't exist in 3E Realms.
It did in my 3E Realms. And many others...again it was easy to ignore.
The Great Wheel hasn't been a factor in Realms since 3E and I never liked it that much to begin with. I was a Big Tree Advocate, I just liked the options for more plains that the Great Sea advocates.
Um the word is planes not plains...also that is understandable I am a big Planescape fan so just maybe I understood it better then you. I like the war of philosphy that it represented.
Then I just think you're wrong. Rules add options all the time.
Actualy before the system for role-playing in D&D was free form...now they are putting lots of rules to it(maybe as many as combat has) so I don't get how you can see this as being less restrictive? I mean adding rules are meant to restrict things.
Um the word is planes not plains...also that is understandable I am a big Planescape fan so just maybe I understood it better then you. I like the war of philosphy that it represented.
Given the number of planescape tomes I own, I'd like to compare them to you and see who comes out on top.
:p
I just didn't like the Great Wheel because it didn't seem to make much sense outside of Greyhawk. I preferred an infinite Multiverse, which is what that this is here.
Actualy I am not 'reaching' here from what I saw it is going to ber more black and white world with very little shades of grey. Though it is pure speculation on both of our parts
Please, explain your logic here. They state "We don't want players to feel limited by their alignment in roleplaying and personality" equal what you just said?
Actualy before the system for role-playing in D&D was free form...now they are putting lots of rules to it(maybe as many as combat has) so I don't get how you can see this as being less restrictive? I mean adding rules are meant to restrict things.
That's a Chaotic perspective :-)
For me, Rules allow systems for player characters to be able to handle situations in an easier manner with less hinderance on the Dungeon Master. A Social Combat system will encourage player characters who previously didn't have a use for the Charisma and Diplomacy parts on their characters sheets to be able to get more involved in the game.
Mine will still be largely free form, of course. That doesn't mean that I don't recognize the benefit for other campaigns.
The justification that you lose your knowledge of a spell everytime you cast it is just bizarre. For me, I prefer a Mana point based system or White Wolf's Thaumaturgy where you can perform an unlimited amount of rituals.
I agree with you which is why I changed the flavor slightly and added some rules to it.
I based my reflavoring off the line that the caster prepares the spells a head of time. Which mean magic I treat as ritural like in that it takes time to do...so the caster takes that time ahead to do so whwen he gets into combat he can have the spells alot faster then the minute or so it takes to actualy perform the ritural. Now he only has energy to cast a certain number od speels a day(why because it is mentaly taxing to do so). But he can prepare spells with a little more flexibility in that he can say prepare 2 1st level spells in a 2nd level slot.
I would actualy like to see them fix the old D&D system then just throw it out an be like other RPGs...
I would actualy like to see them fix the old D&D system then just throw it out an be like other RPGs...
It looks like that's what they're doing. Honestly, I wish they'd just recognize it's broken and be done with it.
It sounds similar to the Sorceror, which is why I don't use Sorcerors - I've had those rules in effect since 2e.
Still not perfect though, but it was the best amalgam system I could come up with.
For awhile I 'married' spell points to HP, which was okay until one person figured out how to abuse the system. Until then, I liked the way a mage grew weaker as he cast spells. Hopefully WotC will come up with some type of balance that I couldn't.
Actualy I am not 'reaching' here from what I saw it is going to ber more black and white world with very little shades of grey. Though it is pure speculation on both of our parts.
John, I see where he is coming from, seeing how so much of the argument used to explain the need for the alignment change boils down to, "The black and white alignment system we currently have is too clunky, and too unrealistic." However, I don't see where you are coming from with this, so would you mind showing us where you got the information that led to you reaching the conclusion that it's going to be less shades of grey? I understand that at the end of the day, it's still speculation on both sides from what information we have, however I'm sincerely confused on where you derived your speculation.
Um the word is planes not plains...
Seriously John, I would think that someone who has been gaming as long as you would have heard of the Great West Planar Cosmology.....:D
Given the number of planescape tomes I own, I'd like to compare them to you and see who comes out on top.
:p
I just didn't like the Great Wheel because it didn't seem to make much sense outside of Greyhawk. I preferred an infinite Multiverse, which is what that this is here.
I own them all...including the 1st edition Manuel of the Planes. So we might be tied....
Ah you see this is a matter of perception. I never played in Greyhawk till about the middle of the 2nd edition...I always play in the FR though. So to me the Great Wheel was the more belonging to the Realms then Greyhawk(also 1st edition D&D where the Great Wheel came from was not Greyhawk by rule). Though I liked the fact that the Great Wheel united all the world in the samer multiverse. Also the Great Wheel is infinite.
Please, explain your logic here. They state "We don't want players to feel limited by their alignment in roleplaying and personality" equal what you just said?
Actualy they said that the current rules has alignment not limiting roleplaying and personality(I mean just read the alignment section in the rules) the problem is that some players and books(which I don't which ones they refer to in particular) misintepert the alignment system to make it restrictive. Which means the new alignment system as to be dumbed downed so everyone can understand it's purpose.
:-)
Which means the new alignment system as to be dumbed downed so everyone can understand it's purpose.
My take was more an explanation "Yes, your Paladin can break the law."
If you have Planescape Torment or Fires of Dis, you beat me. I read Fires of Dis in the story, so I confess I'm sorry.
:-).
I'll admitt to a tie...as I don't buy modules in general(though I got the others for Planescape which should say something) and that is the only one I don't own also(though I did read though a friend's copy). Sigh I miss Planescape and wished I got to play it as a player...sigh maybe one day.
My take was more an explanation "Yes, your Paladin can break the law."
Now if they keep the old alignment system and just explain it better I'll be all for it(though I think this not going to be the case as there is space concerns).
Don't like any of that 'Abeir' stuff. Personally, I think that it's pretty dumb. The planet is Abeir-Toril, is has always been Abeir-Toril, and will continue to be Abeir-Toril. Just because we're all too lazy to constantly type 'Abeir-Toril' doesn't mean that anything is different.
That's been my opinion as well! "Abeir-Toril" is just the full name of the planet, it doesn't mean there's some piece of the planet named "Abeir" that got separated.
Because that's the date it ends on.
Way to miss my point, Charles.
Mount Celestia didn't exist in 3E Realms.
Actually, I'm pretty sure there was a version of Mount Celestia in one of the "upper" planes of the FR. Just like the Hells, the Abyss, the Court of Stars, etc. existed in the FR cosmology.
For awhile I 'married' spell points to HP, which was okay until one person figured out how to abuse the system. Until then, I liked the way a mage grew weaker as he cast spells. Hopefully WotC will come up with some type of balance that I couldn't.
In this case Fantasy Flight Games' Midnight might have been for you. You can cast a fixed number of level 0 spells per day, and for the rest you have spell points. Level 1 spells cost one point and so on. Once you've depleted your spell points, you can power the spells with your constitution. So until you die, you'll never run out of spells ;) Makes for interesting choices; all the more when you use the optional HP rule which says that your core HP (called health points) are made up of the points you have in constitution, and the rest are battle points. Crits and ranged weapons bypass the battle points and directly deplete the health points. Very interesting system, and non-abusable to boot :P
DB
The Red Wizards are matched by the Simbul, the Elves of Agarlarond, and the Rashemmi. Frankly, they're also a den of vipers that I would put the Zhents even odds on defeating by themselves.
-No doubt on that second point.
I'm not terribly fond of psionics but something more akin to it would be appreciated. My players love psionics despite my distaste.
-It adds a lot of flexibility, with being able to choose any power, and then being able to augment it whenever you want.
I did something similar - casters could only memorize certain spells ahead of time, but then created a point-based system that allowed them to cast ANY of the spells they memorized as much or as few times as they wanted until they ran out of points.
Still not perfect though, but it was the best amalgam system I could come up with.
-Hey, it sounds pretty good, and it gets across the fact that mage-types grow weaker with the more power they expend.
That's been my opinion as well! "Abeir-Toril" is just the full name of the planet, it doesn't mean there's some piece of the planet named "Abeir" that got separated.
-If only everyone else shared our views...
I have NO idea what Abeir will be, but I'd be willing to bet money that it will be something physical, and not just a 'turn of phrase'.
In this case Fantasy Flight Games' Midnight might have been for you. You can cast a fixed number of level 0 spells per day, and for the rest you have spell points. Level 1 spells cost one point and so on. Once you've depleted your spell points, you can power the spells with your constitution. So until you die, you'll never run out of spells ;) Makes for interesting choices; all the more when you use the optional HP rule which says that your core HP (called health points) are made up of the points you have in constitution, and the rest are battle points. Crits and ranged weapons bypass the battle points and directly deplete the health points. Very interesting system, and non-abusable to boot :P
DB
I have that tome - I'll have to look it over again. In my sytem, a spell cost 1 + Spelll lev, and I worked out how many points they would get by converting all the spell levels in the PH to that system, so players would be exactly the same power they were without the system, it just gave them more options. Also, specialists got to cast spells of their scholl at -1 spell point, instead of getting extra spells. This meant that only a specialist got to cast cantrips (of his school) for free.
The system I had briefly used using HP for spell points gave everyone a D6 as a standard HD, and then you got an add for your class (fighters were 1d6+4, Barabrians 1d6+6, etc...), which made everyone slightly more 'beefy' on the average, without upsetting balance over-much. Hp also recovered more quickly, but you lost HP for other things, like running or combat (I turned HP into a Fatigue system, basically). Also, once you were out of HP, your Con was useable (rather then use the -10HP 'near death' rules). All the rules about negative hit points would apply to Con instead, which meant someone with a higher Con could 'hold on' a little longer before dying.
It became a little convoluted though, and required a lot more bookeeping.
Then one stupid player found Vampiric Touch and started using townsfolk as Mana batteries.
Then one stupid player found Vampiric Touch and started using townsfolk as Mana batteries.
That's just pure gold!
Anyway, we handle HP quite similarly. An HD gets rolled until it shows a number of its second range or higher (5 on a D8, 6 on a D10, and so on), and your Con is the number of negative HP you can handle without buying the farm. Come to think of it, I don't know anyone personally who uses the HP system as is
DB
For awhile I 'married' spell points to HP, which was okay until one person figured out how to abuse the system. Until then, I liked the way a mage grew weaker as he cast spells. Hopefully WotC will come up with some type of balance that I couldn't.
You might also want to check out variant spell point magic as it is displayed here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm. It includes a variation on the variant (I know, a tad bit redundant) on how after using a certain percent of your spell points you become fatigued or exhausted.
This is the best illustration of how PC's think I've ever come across.
:OMG!
;)Am I missing something here?
OOC: Apparently the huge picture based comics, yes.
Its weird, this is only the second time this has ever happened to me - I can't even connect to the site directly; I have to have that annoying "you are now leaving WotC..." message at the top.
The site is giving my security settings coniptions, I guess. I'll have to check it tomorrow from someone else's computer.
Basically, they want to stop all those arguments that go "that doesn't count because it's in a core book and NOT FR". So, if its in a splatbook, then it is CANON to Eberron, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, etc...
no more arguments - one set of rules for all.
That means merging the cosmologies as well, which was hinted at in the latest 'designer column' in Insider.
"One for all, and all for one." - Thats the future of D&D.
I like it better when diferent settings are, y'know, different from each other. There should be visible differences between a Realms character, a core setting character, and an Eberron character.
If everything's going to be all (mostly) the same, then why bother having more than one setting?
I imagine something like this - we will have a core set of rules governing 'flying ships'. Several campaigns have them, so thats a no-brainer. The way they work, and the way they look, are very different from one world to another, but I don't see why the game-mechanics can't be identical. We got shell-ships from Halrua, Elemental vessels from Eberron, Zeppelins in Mystara, etc... but they can all pretty much move and turn the same. The settings can add in any quirky details (like Spelljamming vessels obtaining higher speeds when in space, or the effects of banishing the Elemental powering an Eb-ship), but the basics can be in the core rules.
Rules for "Awakened Constructs" could be universal as well, with Eberron having Warforged and FR having Thaluds. They are VERY different critters, but at their core they are pretty much the same type of thing.
Like I said, it can be done, but it's going to require quite a bit of generic rules to pull off. I suppose if the cards that come with the minis become a factor, we can get the individual campaign-specifics for each creature on those. It means less rules to memorize up-front, which is what I'm pretty sure they are shooting for.
Rules for "Awakened Constructs" could be universal as well, with Eberron having Warforged and FR having Thaluds. They are VERY different critters, but at their core they are pretty much the same type of thing.
-Meh, not really. From my understanding of Eberron, Warforged are war machine golems that eventually gained their own sentiences. Tomb-Tappers are very similar, except they really don't have their own sentiences. When you get down to it, they are mostly unthinking golems, that are performing their tasks- recovering magical items. The difference, I think, is that Warforged, as I understand them, have sentience and free will, while Tomb-Tappers don't have free will.
Warforged are Free-willed, Tomb-tappers (Thaluds) are driven by their desire to aquire magic (and have big mouths in their abdomens). They both look different - but the rules governing them SHOULD be the same.
You can call either or both of them Golems, but that's just a Hebrew word for a magical construct that resembles a human in form. Its just a name basically. The fact that some are Free-willed just makes them available as a PC race, but thats all.
And FR had a Free-willed Golem FIRST, named Minder I believe, from the FR comics way back in 1990. ;)
He even looked a bit like a Warforged. :D
And FR had a Free-willed Golem FIRST, named Minder I believe, from te FR comics way back in 1990. ;)
He even looked a bit like a Warforged. :D
Actually, Minder wasn't exactly a free-willed sentient golem. *She* was the soul of a female dwarf, set into the body of an iron golem by Dwalimor Omen to save her life.
Later in the series Minder even got a more female form.
Or more likely we're going to see them from some previously unmentioned and undiscovered bit of Netheril or Imaskar that suddenly spawns an entire race no one ever knew about it...
-Pshh...Like that ever happens!
-Look...There goes a Goliath. Hey, and over there is a Kin-Rith (Sp?). Is that a Raptorian I see over there?
Warforged are Free-willed, Tomb-tappers (Thaluds) are driven by their desire to aquire magic (and have big mouths in their abdomens). They both look different - but the rules governing them SHOULD be the same.
-My point, thought, is that Warforged have self-awareness and free-will, and could be a PC race, whereas Tomb-Tappers have self-awareness, but they don't have free-will, which doesn't make them an ideal PC race, unless the campaign is about collecting magical items, and bringing them to the Tomb of the Thalud.
You can call either or both of them Golems, but that's just a Hebrew word for a magical construct that resembles a human in form. Its just a name basically. The fact that some are Free-willed just makes them available as a PC race, but thats all.
-Well, it's a bit more than just a name. Like the 'Paladin', in D&D, the 'Golem' comes with certain connotations that, when altered, changed or ignored, kind of makes the thing in question less 'Golem'-like. That's just semantics though- I agree that both are Golems, and the rules for Golems should apply.
Is just a half orc until spring
What happened to the other half?
I don't know, I'm a mooncalf!
We're not sure about this theory
That orcs and dwarves were once all cheery
We can't tell or say for sure
Are there half orcs or is it pure?
Orc! The herald archons sing
Is a PC race come spring!
Thirty plus years of gaming say
That it should not be this way!
We're not sure about this business
We're confused about what the facts is
We can't tell or say for sure
If it's truth or horse manure.
Orc! The herald archons sing
Have a kingdom and a king!
Would it were the same for gnomes
Somehow they're without their homes!
Orc! The herald angels sing!
Will be PC's after spring!
This bit of cheery sarcasm was brought to you by me.
What's the Spellplague, what's this about a crap-load of deities dying, and where do I find these happenings?
Look to the last two pages of A Grand History of the Realms for what few details exist.
Ok, can somebody sum up the last 800 posts for me?
What's the Spellplague, what's this about a crap-load of deities dying, and where do I find these happenings?
In 1358 DR, Cyric sneaks into Mystra’s divine realm and murders her; Shar helps Cyric plot the murder. Mystra’s realm, the Weave, and Savras are destroyed when Mystra dies. The destruction of the Weave is catastrophic both on Toril and in the divine homes of the gods. Arcane spellcasters die and go mad in the thousands as azure fires dance in the skies, hence the name Year of Blue Fires for 1358 DR. Only greater deities can hold their divine realms intact as the chaos destroys planes—as a result, numerous intermediate, lesser, and demigods flock to the greater deities that are able to protect the weaker gods. The Spellplague itself seems to have killed only Savras and Mystra, though Azuth and Velsharoon are lost in the Astral.
A couple of years earlier, the Mordinsamman (the dwarven gods) finally battled the duergar deities, defeating and killing them. However, Haela Brightaxe and Gorm Gulthyn were lost too. Likewise, the drow deities fought each other: Lolth killed Selvetarm and tried to kill Ghaunadaur, which resulted in the latter leaving the Demonweb Pits. A follower of Eilistraee killed Vhaeraun (thanks to an artifact) and Eilistraee absorbed Vhaeraun’s godly essence and his church. Kiaransalee disappeared; a High Magic spell erased her name out of existence, and since she suddenly didn’t have any followers, she vanished.
Also, before the Spellplague, Cyric tricked Tyr into killing Helm.
All this from the Grand History of the Realms.
Ok, can somebody sum up the last 800 posts for me?
What's the Spellplague, what's this about a crap-load of deities dying, and where do I find these happenings?
They're ruining the Realms... the gods are dead... the weave is gone... the new settings sux... Rich Baker must be stopped... Msatran must be stopped... everyone must be stopped...
yadda, yadda, yadda...
Thats basically what has been said since Gencon.
...everyone must be stopped...
-If time can be stopped, I think we might be able to fix some of this craziness.
-MT, you in?
-Crazy times, eh?
And dont you just love it. I think they let an Umber Hulk loose at WotC!:D
lol, nicely composed :D
Yes, that was funny!
And dont you just love it. I think they let an Umber Hulk loose at WotC!:D
That might explain them turning Dungeon and Dragon into the weak overpriced online content that used to be free on their site. It might also explain Gleemax.
:D
It's as if they're intentionally alienating their fanbase, like Bob Dylan did with Self Protrait.
Now that I think about it, they're probably trying to convert Yu-Gi-Oh! and Pokemon fans over to D&D as they get a little older. Kids = $$$$$ (well their parents' money anyway).
"Praise Mystra!" he cries. "Your alive?"
Drizzt turns, and faces the old mage and says, "Of course I'm alive! Now get out of here before you make me late for my job interview at Paizo. At least someone knows who we are and still cares!"
Elminster closes the curtain and asks "Can I tag along?"
-FR was the last straw. I'll be back when Big Bro dumps you in a couple years.
And dont you just love it. I think they let an Umber Hulk loose at WotC!:D
I would say it was Illithids...
there are definately some brains missing...
To me, the game peaked in the early 1990s, but even then it was beginning to rot from within.
I would prefer 4e to have an antique textbook look and feel, with simple diagrams, 320 pages in EVERY book, and more 2e looking artwork.
- Player's Handbook (races, classes, and combat: warrior, wizard, healer, scoundrel, psionicist, and factotum, and human, dwarf, elf, halfling, and gnome).
- Dungeon Master's Guide (focuses on world building, and actually applies real science for developing realistic fantasy worlds, with additional help in nonstandard worlds (ringworlds, planes, Dyson spheres, etc.).
- Monster Manual (with guidelines for new monster creation, and formatted like the 2e Monstrous Manual, and no huge themes for the tomes)
- Spell Compendium
- Magic Item Compendium
- Each of the classic campaign settings, one per three months, set in the game year of the original edition of the campaign (FR=1356, GH=576, DL=353, etc.)
- One good 32-page perfect-bound adventure per month (like the old late 70's adventures, instead of online in DI Dungeon)
- One good 128-page adventure per year (like Red Hand of Doom)
- An annual update
And that's it. No Complete series. No campaign setting support beyond the initial campaign setting sourcebook. Toril has four settings, by my count.
That's not what I'm going to get. The 4e core will have a magazine look. Gnomes are replaced by tieflings and eladrins. FR has been nuked worse than DL ever was. All editions of the game have always seemed really limiting to my imagination, even 3.x. The adventures will be mostly on D&DI. The free excerpts and content on the website (especially The Mind's Eye and Epic Insights), which was one of my favorite things about D&D, has been yanked. The art is ugly (still ugly by the look of the 4e core covers). For every rule mechanic they are fixing, it seems they are ruining a little bit of flavor to account for it.
First, they are "fixing" the Realms by eliminating the epic NPCs and shrinking the Pantheon substantially. They're keeping Drizz't alive because he's still a major cash cow for WotC. The rest are just NPCs. Okay, I'm happy with that part. Elminster could fart on the Zhents and eliminate them whenever he wanted. Then they go and throw in monkeywrenches like the spellplague, an orc kingdom (that is more civilized than the human ones - if it was like Mordor I'd be happy, but alas, it's like Eberron, which is cool in Eberron, but not Faerun), and an aboleth nation, as if it wasn't bad enough that they already had the time of troubles, the dracorage, the return of Shade, the destruction of Zhentil Keep, and detailed every little corner of Faerun while completely ignoring Maztica, Zakhara, and Kara-Tur.
It looks like Greyhawk is in for a big cataclysm too, with the Doomgrinder at 11:58 PM.
Why do they have to mess up the existing worlds? Why can't they just introduce a new campaign for their Points of Light theme? And just re-do the NPC stat blocks for the exisitng settings using the 4e rules? And why do they keep advancing the FR and Greyhawk timelines?
Anyway, I've been gaming for 17 years, and now I'm not. I don't even care if they post the Dragons of Eberron map gallery or not; it's the main thing keeping me on the forum, and it's a badly drawn map anyway. (See my sig for the reason why I care about the map of Argonnesson).
Ladies and gentlemen, D&D has jumped the shark many times in the past, but 2006 and 2007 have been just one bad PR thing after another.
And that's it. No Complete series. No campaign setting support beyond the initial campaign setting sourcebook. Toril has four settings, by my count.
Technically, six -
Faerûn
Kara-Tur
Zakhara
Maztica
Hordelands
Malatra
Malatra was done for the RPGA crowd, but it was an official setting located on Toril (south of K-T) as part of the Living Jungle Campaign.
Why do they have to mess up the existing worlds? Why can't they just introduce a new campaign for their Points of Light theme? And just re-do the NPC stat blocks for the exisitng settings using the 4e rules?
And this, my friend, is what we've all been asking ourselves...
We've also asked them, but they're not tellin'...
Malatra wasn't even discussed in the K-T material, although a couple of it's more northerly countries were briefly mentioned. Also, another whole region opened up to the southwest of K-T in the module/2e update Ronin Challenge, called the Larang Valleys, although I'm not sure if that was part of Malatra or not. Either way, the K-T material concentrated on the four main kingdoms (the two Chinas and the two Japans), and barely touched upon the surrounding territory.
And Living Jungle, the RPGA Malatra, WAS cosidered a seperate campaign. The material covered in it was very different then the rest of Kara-Tur.
And that's it. No Complete series. No campaign setting support beyond the initial campaign setting sourcebook. Toril has four settings, by my count.
Who's forcing you to buy material beyond what you like?
Spellplague is the result of Cyric killing Mystra in her own Domain
Maybe this is my 2nd edition showing, but to perma-kill a god don't you have to kill them in their own domain?
And that's it. No Complete series. No campaign setting support beyond the initial campaign setting sourcebook. Toril has four settings, by my count.
Well dude, I hate adventure modules so your way wouldn't work for me and would make me drop D&D.
The "no one is forcing you" argument is just incredibly amusing to me.
Amusing or not, it still holds true. It's good to laugh, though.
Look to the last two pages of A Grand History of the Realms for what few details exist.
Where do I find this? Online, novel, or sourcebook?
It's a massive publicity stunt to sell something that everyone can get the basics from, online.
It worked.
It's a massive publicity stunt to sell something that everyone can get the basics from, online.
Wow.
And some folks call ME negative.
I have both the Freeware version, and the hardbound book, and I thought it was well worth the purchase price.
You can still see some of the excerpts HERE.
It does. It just doesn't hold much water for any debate or method of persuasion. If it's just your opinion, and not supposed to make a point, then that's cool.
Apparently, elondir doesn't like the fact that WotC publishes books beyond what he likes. Too many books.
I don't like broccoli or spinach, but I don't demand that people should stop eating or producing them.
Buy what you like, and let others do the same. Even if the market is saturated with products that you personally don't enjoy, don't demand the opportunity to be removed from others who very well could.
Maybe this is my 2nd edition showing, but to perma-kill a god don't you have to kill them in their own domain?
Guess my 2e is showing as well then, that was why I mentioned she got killed in her own domain actually.
Though I'd agree with Markus, that publicity stunt comment was surprisingly cynical... didn't see that one coming. :D
Just good business.
Buy what you like, and let others do the same. Even if the market is saturated with products that you personally don't enjoy, don't demand the opportunity to be removed from others who very well could.
THIS (the bolded part in particular, though I mean characters and deities and events within the Realms more than products in this case) is what they should have kept in mind before trashing the Realms.
I don't like broccoli or spinach, but I don't demand that people should stop eating or producing them.
I don't mind at all if some people like oranges. That's perfectly fine. I do mind seeing the only apple orchard being replaced with an orange grove, and being told that if I want apples, I'll basically have to grow them myself, especially when there's arguably a) other orange groves already, and b) fertile land where the company could start a new orange grove.
Buy what you like, and let others do the same. Even if the market is saturated with products that you personally don't enjoy, don't demand the opportunity to be removed from others who very well could.
As Storm said, this is exactly the point. A lot of us liked the Realms, generally, as they were. None of us were demanding that nothing change, but I at least object to what I feel is a wholesale alteration to something different, getting rid of exactly those themes that I (and others) liked about it. Why must we be asked to give up what we like? Why can't others ask for something new, rather than asking for the gameworld that we like to be remade in an image that would be better suited to something entirely new and different? That's how I feel, at least.
THIS (the bolded part in particular, though I mean characters and deities and events within the Realms more than products in this case) is what they should have kept in mind before trashing the Realms.
-That works in both directions. Those in favor of the changes can say to those who are not, "Since it's your campaign, you don't have to follow the exact canon setting. Do your own thing." Those who are not in favor of the changes can say to whose who are, "Since it's your campaign, you don't have to follow the exact canon setting. Do your own thing."
;)
Then the question becomes who has to do more work to adapt the setting to their style?
-Being unbiased, I'm going to have to say those who choose not to recognize the changes to the canon Realms- Those who choose not to play in the "new" Realms. Future sourcebooks/novels will be much more difficult to incorporate into homebrew FR campaigns when fundamental ideas/places/people in the "new" Realms (Such as the timeline, or the Spellplague) do not exist.
Feeling lazy...
-That works in both directions. Those in favor of the changes can say to those who are not, "Since it's your campaign, you don't have to follow the exact canon setting. Do your own thing." Those who are not in favor of the changes can say to whose who are, "Since it's your campaign, you don't have to follow the exact canon setting. Do your own thing."
;)
I think the main point of concern that I have is that they'll change the Realms so much they'll lose their existing customers, and, having gambled (because this is a very big gamble they're making), will fail to attract new ones.
Thus leading to the complete demise of the Realms as it goes out of print.
To be even clearer: No customers, no profit, no Realms.
(This is not necessarily going to happen, but I am not holding out much hope at this point.)
Sigh.
Buy what you like, and let others do the same. Even if the market is saturated with products that you personally don't enjoy, don't demand the opportunity to be removed from others who very well could.
I absolutely adore imperious declarations that demand others to stop making demands.
No. I'll do what I want, and deal with the consequences, thanks.
I quite agree with Miss Silverhand there. I worry that the changes they are making will never be enough to appease those new customers they are after (the former Realms haters), nor will existing customers stick with it.
Sigh.
It reminds me of the Democrats. The vast majority of the Democratic party hates the war, but the "leadership" of the party is afraid of looking anti-war. So they **** off their own voters in a vain attempt to appeal to people that already hate them.
I absolutely adore imperious declarations that demand others to stop making demands.
No. I'll do what I want, and deal with the consequences, thanks.
Nah. That wasn't imperiously posted. It simply lacked the haughtiness required. It seemed more martyrish actually...
Get your big words correct next time Dan
No need getting others confoozled
Maybe this is my 2nd edition showing, but to perma-kill a god don't you have to kill them in their own domain?
Guess my 2e is showing as well then, that was why I mentioned she got killed in her own domain actually.
The shock for me is not that he killed her in her own domain, but that (at least as I interpreted it) he snuck up on her and killed her in her own domain (without her detecting him), and was not killed (or at least seriously maimed) himself in the fallout of the cosmos being torn to shreds. :D
THIS (the bolded part in particular, though I mean characters and deities and events within the Realms more than products in this case) is what they should have kept in mind before trashing the Realms.
You have three editions worth of FR material that you like. Do you know the total page count?
We're getting two books in 2008 that you probably won't like. Two entire books. Compared to how many you have now?
I absolutely adore imperious declarations that demand others to stop making demands.
No. I'll do what I want, and deal with the consequences, thanks.
Of course, that's why I'm replying to your posts.
However, as I've understood it, elondir complained about an excess of books, books beyond what he likes. What's the problem with buying the books that you like and ignoring the rest, if you don't even want additional books? That was what I was responding to in elondir's post. Hence the comparison with spinach and whatever - I like x and don't want or need y, but I'm still complaining about y. WTF?
The shock for me is not that he killed her in her own domain, but that (at least as I interpreted it) he snuck up on her and killed her in her own domain (without her detecting him), and was not killed (or at least seriously maimed) himself in the fallout of the cosmos being torn to shreds. :D
The entire story is just too unbelievable imo. The strangest thing is that unless he has started to tap the Shadow Weave (which Mystra would probably sense - Cyric is a high-level illusionist, after all, and one whom I think she pays special attention), he probably relied on Weave magic to hide from her. It's almost like saying "Hi, old girl, could you help me stick this dagger between your ribs?" I never understood why one needs to kill Mystra when her very portfolio can serve to make her practically invisible - the consciousness of the Weave, as it were. If they wanted a generic game, they could just change a few things about the Weave and leave it at that.
You never know, though - I hope that by the time the 4.0 FRCS comes out, the authors will decide not to scrap some of the best features of Faerun. Failing that, I only hope there will be enough people who decide to either play 3.5 or play without the more idiotic plot twists in the last few years.
It's just weird, it's what it is. The strangest thing is that unless he has started to tap the Shadow Weave (which Mystra would probably sense - Cyric is a high-level illusionist, after all, and one whom I think she pays special attention), he probably relied on Weave magic to hide from her. It's almost like saying "Hi, old girl, could you help me stick this dagger between your ribs?"
You never know. I only hope there will be enough people who decide to either play 3.5 or play without the more idiotic plot twists in the last few years.
Given enough work and time, any of these god-related plot twists can be made to make sense, I think. Cyric and Shar assassinating Mystra doesn't seem all that unbelievable, though the circumstances surrounding the death of Helm are... questionable... then again, maybe it means even the gods are fallible and fall short of divine perfection in regards to their respective portfolios, which might explain why the @#$%ing Time of Troubles even happened in the first place.
You have three editions worth of FR material that you like. Do you know the total page count?
We're getting two books in 2008 that you probably won't like. Two entire books. Compared to how many you have now?
TWO? TWO BOOKS? Do you think that is all they'll ever publish on the Forgotten Realms from now on (if it doesn't fall over in a heap, WotC having lost their gamble)?
It isn't that I can't just use what I already have, I can. But from now on, there is really no point in me buying the new books because my Realms won't jibe (even a little bit) with the new canon... In some ways, I'm being forced off the Realms bandwagon, simply because they are changing them to the point where they no longer appeal to me. Why is this a problem? Well, my cash stays in my wallet, and I know I'm not the only one... If enough people keep their cash in their wallet, the Reams dies. I love the Realms, and I don't want to see that happen.
They are cutting their noses off to spite their faces, and I can't see how the Realms will recover from this.
Given enough work and time, any of these god-related plot twists can be made to make sense, I think.
Sure just like you can make a square peg fit into the round hole if you hit hard enough. Doesn't mean it is good writing...
BTW, I like your sig. Here's a
to start you on preparing for the winter...Heya,
TWO? TWO BOOKS? Do you think that is all they'll ever publish on the Forgotten Realms from now on (if it doesn't fall over in a heap, WotC having lost their gamble)?
It isn't that I can't just use what I already have, I can. But from now on, there is really no point in me buying the new books because my Realms won't jibe (even a little bit) with the new canon... Why is this a problem? Well, my cash stays in my wallet, and I know I'm not the only one... If enough people keep their cash in their wallet, the Reams dies.
They are cutting their noses off to spite their faces, and I can't see how the Realms will recover from this.
I agree this is exactly what they are doing...
Heya,
TWO? TWO BOOKS? Do you think that is all they'll ever publish on the Forgotten Realms from now on (if it doesn't fall over in a heap, WotC having lost their gamble)?
It isn't that I can't just use what I already have, I can. But from now on, there is really no point in me buying the new books because my Realms won't jibe (even a little bit) with the new canon... In some ways, I'm being forced off the Realms bandwagon, simply because they are changing them to the point where they no longer appeal to me. Why is this a problem? Well, my cash stays in my wallet, and I know I'm not the only one... If enough people keep their cash in their wallet, the Reams dies. I love the Realms, and I don't want to see that happen.
They are cutting their noses off to spite their faces, and I can't see how the Realms will recover from this.
Yup. Same here.
TWO? TWO BOOKS? Do you think that is all they'll ever publish on the Forgotten Realms from now on (if it doesn't fall over in a heap, WotC having lost their gamble)?
You know, I was starting to lean toward the "hundred year theory" for the new setting, but after thinking about the above statement, and applying it fully to the 4e concept, I'm back to thinking they HAVE TO do the alternate timeline thing instead!
Think about it - if they just release those two books with a date of, oh... I don't know... let's 1475 DR, then ALL the previous lore still applies. How is that going to help the nubs? Does it really matter in the greater scheme of things if Imaskar fell 3863 years ago, or 8963 years ago? Netheril? The Sarruhk? Whats a century? All former canon lore would still apply and the new players will still be up against this supposed "road block".
The only way to eliminate it COMPLETELY is to 'zero' everything out. Total erasure... Tabla Rasa... All previous lore is GONE. Think about it - it's the only thing that makes sense if what they are telling us is true. They need to NUKE everything that has gone before.
This is bad.... really, REALLY bad...
What I know about Helm's death isn't much better and feels like a cross between a B-rated Venezuelan soap opera and Greek mythology at its lowest.
-I guess Venezuelan soap operas aren't that great...
However, as I've understood it, elondir complained about an excess of books, books beyond what he likes. What's the problem with buying the books that you like and ignoring the rest, if you don't even want additional books? That was what I was responding to in elondir's post. Hence the comparison with spinach and whatever - I like x and don't want or need y, but I'm still complaining about y. WTF?
Well, I at least appreciate it that you aren't arguing that it's somehow our "duty" or something as fans of the setting to buy books that we aren't interested in for the sake of keeping the setting alive (yes, I've gotten that vibe from certain other posts here, and elsewhere).
Well, I at least appreciate it that you aren't arguing that it's somehow our "duty" or something as fans of the setting to buy books that we aren't interested in for the sake of keeping the setting alive (yes, I've gotten that vibe from certain other posts here, and elsewhere).
Of course not. The best way to vote is with your wallet.
In any case, it's WAY too early to tell whether the "new" FR will sell or fail. Way way way too early.
Sure just like you can make a square peg fit into the round hole if you hit hard enough. Doesn't mean it is good writing...
Never said it was. Just said it could be made to make sense.
Given enough time and pages, they can probably print enough BS to make it halfway believable, but it will still stink of a cheezy plot device. I never was a big fan of Shar making an incursion in magic via the Shadow Weave, but killing Mystra is a lot worse. And Cyric... Bleh. What I know about Helm's death isn't much better and feels like a cross between a B-rated Venezuelan soap opera and Greek mythology at its lowest. Just because you can fix a mistake doesn't mean you should make it.
Cheesy plot device? Perhaps. Sounds fine to me, but opinions vary and cheesiness is a relative concept. (As is depth; to a flea, even a puddle looks like an ocean. :P ) My own perception of the plot devices being used it positive, but mostly because I like the plot devices; being more or less new to the Realms (but a longtime fan of the Drizzt books), I can't really say much one way or the other for the "changes."
Seriously though, I'm having a hard time with the alternate timeline theory there Markus. On one hand, I like it since it leaves open the possibility of going back to the Realms I know and love. On the other hand, I don't like it because it opts for some bizarre shadow version of the Realms that I can't stand and leaves a very unsatisfied taste in the mouth that they're bothering with some 'new' world rather than going with the one I feel is more interesting to my own tastes. Either way though, alternate timeline or not, the Realms is pretty much dead for me at the moment, barring something really fantastic about 4e.
A 100 year leap will get rid of the body of lore that the designers are referring to (I think), namely the lore generated for the years 1368 to 1375. Which is a lot, when you take all the sourcebooks created for the various cities, regions, organisations, deities etc. That lore is the stuff relevant to your average PC, and is probably the barrier they refer to.
The old history? Not so much. All that can stay in, and just be included in the FRCG, or even an updated Lost Empires of Faerún for DM's to mine for plot hooks. It really doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things if Imaskar fell 3863 years ago, or 8963 years ago, as that's irrelevant to PC's! The important thing for games is that it fell, and can be used as a plot hook for DM's if they want.
Which I'll point out wouldn't have been a problem if they hadn't decided to resurrect Netheril in the first place... or Deep Imaskar being 'discovered'... or the Legacy of Narfell/Ramauthor (?) coming back up and haunting the whole Eastern reaches of Faerun... or the Crown Wars coming back to haunt the present... etcetera and so forth. If the past came back to haunt the designers, it was largely a problem of their own creation in 3.x as far as I can tell, and had nothing to do with the setting.
I agree.
Which I'll point out wouldn't have been a problem if they hadn't decided to resurrect Netheril in the first place... or Deep Imaskar being 'discovered'... or the Legacy of Narfell/Ramauthor (?) coming back up and haunting the whole Eastern reaches of Faerun... or the Crown Wars coming back to haunt the present... etcetera and so forth. If the past came back to haunt the designers, it was largely a problem of their own creation in 3.x as far as I can tell, and had nothing to do with the setting.
Agreed, and I touched on this in another thread in this same forum.
Agreed, and I touched on this in another thread in this same forum.
Hmmm... don't recall it, but I'll happily concede that you said it first, and as they say, imitation is the highest form of praise. :D
Could be I beat you by 5 minutes or so... ah, doesn't really matter who said it first.
Hmmm... don't recall it, but I'll happily concede that you said it first, and as they say, imitation is the highest form of praise. :D
Could be I beat you by 5 minutes or so... ah, doesn't really matter who said it first.
I think I said it before also...mmmm I say we just chalk it up to great minds think alike.
No, I worry that the Realms will atrophy, but will still limp along, a dry husk that is but a faded memory of their former glory, yet still officially published and retained by the company for the use of the name and certain characters and settings within it that are still of profitable use, such as in the computer gaming area.
I certainly don't think that is the intention of anyone at Wizards, of course, let alone the designers, but I just know too many people (at least in my circle of friends and gaming acquaintances) that are inclined to wash their hands of the new material.
The Alternate Timeline theory is, I'm afraid, crazy.
Even though I am it's originator, I would have to agree with you. I don't like it one bit - but if you look at some of the bits that were added in the GHotR, you have to step back and ask "why?"
There's really no point in creating new lore, when you plan on re-vamping the setting less then a year away. It would only make sense if said new lore pertained to the changes planned. Since there are several vingettes adressing "stars changing' and what-not, one can only assume that the world changed in the past (which it DID, when the Elves Sundered it). Taking into account the 'blurbs' about the return of 'Abeir' (there were at least three official ones), one could surmise that something long gone in the past is returning, and the entire world will change because of it.
I never said I liked it, I just chose a particular path of logic to follow. ;)
And if you say the old history doesn't matter - the stuff that fills up the OTHER 50% of the 200 some-odd sourcebooks -then you are just plain wrong. When your PCs find something that dates back to Imaskar, they will still say "what's Imaskar?" Since they want EVERYONE on equal footing (which is exactly what they profess), then they need to make ALL former lore irrelevant. That means what we 'know' now may or may not be true in the future FR, as facts will change as they see fit.
The ONLY way to make that work within canon is to do 'something' that changes the past; otherwise, the reasons for the setting change are ridiculous.
However, I will concede that it is far fetched (which is why I hope that ISN'T what they will do) - we shall all know soon enough, I suppose. We were promised some facts in Dec., so hopefully they will provide some answers in this regard.
I just hope whatever they do will be good, that's all I'm asking.
And if you say the old history doesn't matter - the stuff that fills up the OTHER 50% of the 200 some-odd sourcebooks -then you are just plain wrong. When your PCs find something that dates back to Imaskar, they will still say "what's Imaskar?" Since they want EVERYONE on equal footing (which is exactly what they profess), then they need to make ALL former lore irrelevant. That means what we 'know' now may or may not be true in the future FR, as facts will change as they see fit.
Which is a fair point, but if the PC's do find something that dates back to Imaskar, then it's 99% likely that the DM has prepared something to do with Imaskar, based on whatever history is put into the FRCG or a future Lost Empires of Faerún. So that history is irrelevant to the PC's, as they won't know anything about it until the DM uses it in a plot.
Getting rid of all that history is silly. I'm also certain that they are referring to the large body of lore that's been generated for the timeframe in which the recent editions have been set, namely 1368 DR to 1375 DR.
Possibly not completely accurate as a statement, but you get the point I'm sure...
Committing mass deicide is kinda silly too... ;)
Possibly not completely accurate as a statement, but you get the point I'm sure...
It's happened before. Recall when all the Arch-Fiends were reduced from Lesser God status to Mere Superpowerful Outsiders?
It's happened before. Recall when all the Arch-Fiends were reduced from Lesser God status to Mere Superpowerful Outsiders?
Yet they actualy gained in power...odd that. Trust me gods were really weak in 1st.
Also it was just more of a clarifiction of their power souce.(I.E. they are not gods in that their power remains the same no matter how many followers they have)
It's happened before. Recall when all the Arch-Fiends were reduced from Lesser God status to Mere Superpowerful Outsiders?
I still treat them as demi-gods using a home brew blend of rules from Faiths and Avatars and Faiths and Pantheons. I give them a divine rank based on their stats and I decided that the stats they have are for their avatar. The stats for the Arch-fiend on his home plane are 50% higher.
I don't use stats for archfiends or deities... PC's just kinda... lose when they confront them directly.
I have not had a direct PC vs. Demi-god fight since 2e. I ran that game for over 12 years so even henchmen ended up being epic by that point. :P
I don't use stats for archfiends or deities... PC's just kinda... lose when they confront them directly.
-Yeah, that's generally what tends to happen.
-In my campaign, I was actually toying around with the idea of PCs meeting Eltab at some point, since he is the hidden contributor to the current set of BBEGs.
Do 'regular Fiends' work for Burger King, and 'Arch-Fiends' work for McDonalds?
Sorry... sometimes the ebil monkey gets out of the closet and types stuff on my computer. :P
And they will include a small packet of liquefied lead that can mixed with milk for the kiddies. :D
This is the REAL evil going on beneath our noses. We've been arguing about changes to the setting, but what about changes to the developing brains of innocent children?!
Do 'regular Fiends' work for Burger King, and 'Arch-Fiends' work for McDonalds?
Thanks dude I will never look at Mc Donalds, or Burger King the same. Now the playgrounds will all be multi-level dungeons of despair! The latino girl taking my order, is she a polymorphed fiend, is she, is she?:P
That is so awesome dude, Arch-Fiends!!!:D
Do 'regular Fiends' work for Burger King, and 'Arch-Fiends' work for McDonalds?
That's very punny. ;) :P
Although I will admit I nearly spit coffee on my screen reading that. :D
Anyhow, that 'King' may not be a fiend, but he sure is scarey as hell.
Maybe he fought in the "Crown" Wars.....
Do 'regular Fiends' work for Burger King, and 'Arch-Fiends' work for McDonalds?
The guys who filmed Super Size Me seem to think so, so it must be true! :D
But of more concern to me are the imps and glabrezu that run Wal-Mart. I just got a job there, and, well... *brrrr...*
http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=853
Wal-Mart is teh ebil or uber-ebilness... soon you will learn just how ebil they truly are... unless you're male, in which case it could be okay. :P :D
-Why's it better to be a guy than a girl at Wal-Mart? Never been there so I have no clue. Dress policy?
They're under fire for rather blatant sexual discrimination in their hiring practices for managers, not even complying with 'quotas' on the matter last I heard, and on average pay women 75% of what men make for the same job. Not the first time they've been busted for it actually... they comply for a while, then go back to business as usual it would seem.
-Oh, that Wal-Mart. Hiring illegal immigrants, blatent sexual discrimination practices...
But of more concern to me are the imps and glabrezu that run Wal-Mart. I just got a job there, and, well... *brrrr...*
I am sorry to hear that.
Yeah this shirt says it all.
http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=853
Actually, I don't get it--if Wal-Mart is about "corporate greed", how is it an example of Marxism?
not even complying with 'quotas' on the matter last I heard
Quotas? What the hell ever happened to hiring the best person for the job?
Quotas? What the hell ever happened to hiring the best person for the job?
Uhhh....that has never happened in our life. It's more about hiring enough people that you meet certain standards as set by the government. You must have this amount of minorities, you must have this amount of females, you must have this amount of unintelligent people, etc. It actually doesn't matter whether or not they can actually DO the job, you simply must have them.
Work proficiency hasn't been a subject since equal rights.
I once didn't get a job at the library because they gave it to a black female. I asked why, and the response I got was "With her we meet both qualifications.", which ****** me off beyond belief. Not because I didn't get the job (one can always find another job) but because they would hire someone simply based on gender and race (a PUBLIC place at boot!). They'd hire her simply because she was black, AND a female, just so they'd meet TWO requirements with one person! They didn't care about her INTELLIGENCE! or her DEDICATION. Pfew....I hope she didn't stay. She deserved better than that.
-Why's it better to be a guy than a girl at Wal-Mart? Never been there so I have no clue. Dress policy?
Never been into a Wal-Mart hey? riiiiight... Even Waterdhavian nobles go to the taverns of Dock Ward once in a while...
Not a lot of Wal-Marts in New York city, which is where I thought LK lived....
Uhhh....that has never happened in our life. It's more about hiring enough people that you meet certain standards as set by the government. You must have this amount of minorities, you must have this amount of females, you must have this amount of unintelligent people, etc. It actually doesn't matter whether or not they can actually DO the job, you simply must have them.
Work proficiency hasn't been a subject since equal rights.
I once didn't get a job at the library because they gave it to a black female. I asked why, and the response I got was "With her we meet both qualifications.", which ****** me off beyond belief. Not because I didn't get the job (one can always find another job) but because they would hire someone simply based on gender and race (a PUBLIC place at boot!). They'd hire her simply because she was black, AND a female, just so they'd meet TWO requirements with one person! They didn't care about her INTELLIGENCE! or her DEDICATION. Pfew....I hope she didn't stay. She deserved better than that.
-I feel your disgruntledness. I don't like quotas either. However, there are backwards people out there who might not hire qualified women, blacks, jews, chistians, muslims, hispanics, and so on, simply based on race/ethnicity. So, I'm not endorsing quotas, but...Know what I mean?
-We don't have Wall-Marts in New York City.
I couldn't live without 'em.
Long live Lenin! :P
Walmarts are the Bomb!
I couldn't live without 'em.
Long live Lenin! :P
-MT, where is the nearest Wal-Mart?
-I feel your disgruntledness. I don't like quotas either. However, there are backwards people out there who might not hire qualified women, blacks, jews, chistians, muslims, hispanics, and so on, simply based on race/ethnicity. So, I'm not endorsing quotas, but...Know what I mean?
Not hiring the best person is just bad for bussiness. They will kill themselves I think. A example of this is one of the reasons people believe that the Boston Red Sox wasn't winning a world series(well in the 60's and 70's) was the team was owned by a outright racist who would only hire white player no matter how bad they were and how good the non-white players were.
Not hiring the best person is just bad for bussiness. They will kill themselves I think.
-Being blatently racist to that point is irrational, to a degree, to begin with.
-And anyway, in the mind of someone like that, they are actually doing themselves and/or their business' a favor. After all, in their minds, all [insert racial/ethnic/religious group(s)] are thieves, slackers, poor workers, etc.
A example of this is one of the reasons people believe that the Boston Red Sox wasn't winning a world series(well in the 60's and 70's) was the team was owned by a outright racist who would only hire white player no matter how bad they were and how good the non-white players were.
-That was just the Curse of the Bambino. ;)
-Being blatently racist to that point is irrational, to a degree, to begin with.
-And anyway, in the mind of someone like that, they are actually doing themselves and/or their business' a favor. After all, in their minds, all [insert racial/ethnic/religious group(s)] are thieves, slackers, poor workers, etc.
Sure they might think they are doing themselves a favor...but when they hire the incompetent white guy who is messing up and the white guy who steals from him...he will quickly get beaten by the guy who hired the non-white guy who is honest and competent. Hence he will 'kill' himself.
Sure they might think they are doing themselves a favor...but when they hire the incompetent white guy who is messing up and the white guy who steals from him...he will quickly get beaten by the guy who hired the non-white guy who is honest and competent. Hence he will 'kill' himself.
-Again, though, those kinds of people are irrational to begin with. While they might lose XYZ from that employee, in their minds, they would have lost XYZ + 10 from the [insert ethnic/racial/religious group] employee. So, they think that they are "getting a better deal", for a lack of better words at the moment.
-I feel your disgruntledness. I don't like quotas either. However, there are backwards people out there who might not hire qualified women, blacks, jews, chistians, muslims, hispanics, and so on, simply based on race/ethnicity. So, I'm not endorsing quotas, but...Know what I mean?
Yeah. I know. With those types of people tho', the laws are rather pointless. Even if they meet the requirements, it's not going to provide a work atmosphere that's actually good for anyone. And it's not like the people have the chance to get promoted either. Also, I can't help feeling that it's regulations and laws like those that actually help keep the racial/gender boundaries in the forefront, thus actually harming the purpose they were originally intended for.
Well, I can always pray to his Noodleness that society becomes more enlightened:coolcthul
-Again, though, those kinds of people are irrational to begin with. While they might lose XYZ from that employee, in their minds, they would have lost XYZ + 10 from the [insert ethnic/racial/religious group] employee. So, they think that they are "getting a better deal", for a lack of better words at the moment.
I think you are missing my point....
What I am saying is that the racist's bussiness will not last long because of said irrational behavior. In other words without quotas it would be a self-correcting problem.
A racist's business will last as long as any other, unless his or her racism is publicly displayed in a blatant manner that is offensive to a large number of his or her customers. Offended people will boycott the business, and the business will susequently shrink (but not necessarily fail). It also depends on the average mindset of the region where the business is - it might even boost business if the area in general is ignorant enough that racism against the ethnic group in question is rampant in the area.
Maybe I'm just jaded though. I grew up in a crappy little xenophobic closed-minded small town of 1400 people in the American Midwest, surrounded by miles and miles of corn fields, whose town council actually got away with using a racial slur as a reason to not allow a major restaurant chain to open a new location in town in the late 1980's. Rumor had it the mayor was in the KKK (although that was just a rumor). And they got re-elected over and over again, usually because nobody ran against them. I couldn't wait to get out of that area and move to a decent city. I guess I should mention that the town has changed quite a bit since over half of the town was leveled by a major tornado in 1992 and had no choice but to accept help from outsiders.
Furthermore, as long as the owner is a vicious enough cut-throat who has a good understanding of hostile takeovers, he can still prosper simply by forcefully buying enough small businesses and maintaining a lower public profile after a PR incident. He can also invest in companies that are under the radar (business to business type stuff or raw materials) or provide stuff you can't live without (like laundry detergent).
NOW, LET'S TRY TO GET BACK TO THE D&D-RELATED DISCUSSION BEFORE THE WIZO'S COME AROUND.
Faerun has been nuked to make it a lot darker and gritty, in the belief that it will be an improvement over the bright, cheery Realms we've known. They also believe that in doing so they open up more product opportunities, since they now can re-release all the supplements all over again without simply re-printing everything, without rendering the old stuff non-canon.
They also looked at the most common complaints about the Realms and "fixed" them: they killed off the epic NPCs (except Drizz't who is such a cash cow that he will never die), shrunk the pantheon, and lowered the population density so that it's not as crowded with every nook and cranny detailed.
This is having a generally unfavorable reaction among FR fans, although some posters are looking forward to it.
Personally I feel the 1987 Gray Box is all you need to run the Realms - they don't even have stat blocks for most of the NPCs. It's just names, levels, alignments, religions, and a few paragraphs of backstory. What little crunch there is relates to overland travel, dragons, and a few spells. It's intentionally vague, leaving the DM to flesh it out as he sees fit.
I have no complaints from my players...I must be doing something right.
I think you are missing my point....
What I am saying is that the racist's bussiness will not last long because of said irrational behavior. In other words without quotas it would be a self-correcting problem.
-It depends on his/her business. If he has a monopoly on that market, whatever that market is, he's not going anywhere, so long as people need his/her products. People are constantly harping about how their are aggrivated with OPEC, but very few people actually have stopped buying fuel for their cars, lawnmowers, generators, etc.
What's upsetting to me is that the Realms never truly has been bright and cheery--there's plenty of darkness under the surface if not out in the open. But I suppose it comes down to what WotC sees: they may think there is a general perception that the FR is cheerful and happy and nothing truly bad ever happens there, and they are setting out to change the perception.
Agreed. Although the more I look at my large 3.5 FRCS map, the less huge geographic & strategic influence I see amongst the so-called Evil Powers That Be in the Realms. At least from a comparative standpoint to other D20 campaign worlds that I've played in.
I would definitely welcome a 4.0 FRCS map with a significantly larger geographical presence of evil nations and "badlands" (so to speak).
As for the topic of employment quotas--it's an interesting discussion, and it's not a subject that I'm unaware of...but it's also very "touchy" and I think we should steer clear of it. This board really isn't the proper venue.
Understood, but I think much of the evil in the Realms comes from covert groups rather than overt political states.
I would venture this is part of what makes the Realms feel "real" to so many people. We all know evil exists in our world, but it not something overt (especially in the U.S.). I think this is part of what worries me about the changes in store for the 4e Realms.
I would venture this is part of what makes the Realms feel "real" to so many people. We all know evil exists in our world, but it not something overt (especially in the U.S.). I think this is part of what worries me about the changes in store for the 4e Realms.
-Covert "evil groups" are more believable. With overt "evil groups" and nations, one wonders why good doesn't "crusade to stop them", and what not. Of course, that's easily explained too (It's not in their best interests), but...
If the changes to the lore/history/deities/etc....don't suit your purposes, then I'd say don't use them. DnD 4e is basically changing the mechanics of the game and doens't have to consist with the changes to our Realms per se. I'm frankly excited to see what they come out with. No longer do I have to play the tank fighter and suck from levels 8th through 20th while the wizard/sorcerer, cleric, or druid gain pheonominal cosmic/divine powers to my whoping +1 attacks, some hp, and skill points. The only defining PrC is the Frenzied Berserker, and even at that I have a chance of killing my friends.
You sir, are a ROLL player not a ROLE Player. There is FAR more to D&D than who does more damage in a battle. Go back to WoW and tank Karazhan.
Sorry, may be insulting, but these changes to FR have ****** me off and you got caught in the line of fire. 4E wants to dumb down D&D, fine, but sitll no reason to dumb down FR. Let it be the campaign world for advanced players then and give those who only care abotu their combat abilities and gear go play in Eberron's sandbox.
Chondath and Hlondath seemed pretty heavily leaning towards the dark side to me as well.
Heck, Hlondeth is ruled by a minority Yuan-Ti population and they believe in slavery...not exactly a comfy place to live in if you're human.
As far as my Forgotten Realms campaigns are concerned, none of the stinking pile of crap that Wizards of the Coast has made official in 4th Edition has even happened or ever will happen.
I personally think 4th Edition is just another way to milk us customers like a cow stuck in a stall hooked up to a milking machine all day long. I'm just furious that they did this before coming out with a Frozen North Sourcebook.
I base most of my campaigns in Damara and it wasn't for a few good sites based on the North of Faerun I'd be running my campaigns elsewhere.
Kiss the Moonshaes goodbye...
Funny, but it sounds more and more like the world will look something like Ed's original, before TSR got ahold of it. So far all the changes they describe point in that direction....
especially the part about 'Abeir'
You sir, are a ROLL player not a ROLE Player. There is FAR more to D&D than who does more damage in a battle. Go back to WoW and tank Karazhan.
Sorry, may be insulting, but these changes to FR have ****** me off and you got caught in the line of fire. 4E wants to dumb down D&D, fine, but sitll no reason to dumb down FR. Let it be the campaign world for advanced players then and give those who only care abotu their combat abilities and gear go play in Eberron's sandbox.
I don't like the changes either, but Diffan didn't cause the changes. Take it easy on him. He seems like a nice guy. He created a thread so other people on these boards could request NPCs and he builds them. He doesn't get any thing for so give him some credit.
Happy Gaming
I think Damara is one of those "boring areas" that they keeping talking about - in fact, I assume anything that hasn't had a sourcebook in an edition or two will probably get nuked, because OBVIOUSLY folks at WotC seems to think WE don't like them.
Kiss the Moonshaes goodbye...
It's good that you're not jumping to any conclusions without facts, though.
Didn't Rich Baker mention something about him wanting to write a sourcebook for the Moonshaes?
It's good that you're not jumping to any conclusions without facts, though.
Didn't Rich Baker mention something about him wanting to write a sourcebook for the Moonshaes?
But will it be the Moonshaes we remember...or a coolized one?
That is the problem they will change things to suit their needs and their vision of 'cool'. It doesn't matter how out of whack the changes are because well they just dropped the 'bomb'(the Spellplague) so all they have to do is point that out and not really explain anything.
) those areas the designers feel are not very interesting.Now, just take a look at the sourcebooks they keep doing - obviously the designers think those places are interesting, so we keep hearing about them. In fact, I think they love Waterdeep so much they want to marry it. ;)
On the other hand, we haven't seen anything on the bloodstone Lands, the Moonshaes, or Chult in quite some time. Once again, it is obvious that WotC does not feel there is enough interest in those areas, therefore they clearly are contenders for the 4e 'chopping-block'.
The funny thing is, they only produce sourcebooks for the areas THEY (ie, designers) like, so that they generate interest in those areas. Because new players have nowhere to turn for info on the other regions, they have no interest in them.
Sort of a self-fulfilling prophesy, eh?
Sorry, I just don't swallow all the 4e BS - it's not about making the Realms MORE interestinjg, its about selling products, plain and simple. I don't begrudge them that; they need to eat too. But then they shouldn't LIE and saying they are doing it for the customers - in business, it's never, EVER for the consumers.
WTF is wrong with cool? Jesus. I think FR is cool as it is. Doesn't mean it can't become cool in a different way when 4e hits the stores.
Cool isn't 'cool' anymore - now that retro (Old Grey box) is coming back, we're shooting for 'Groovy'. :P
Or as my son would say, "FR is off the Shizzle, yo". :D
I love it how "cool" has become "lame" here.
WTF is wrong with cool? Jesus. I think FR is cool as it is. Doesn't mean it can't become cool in a different way when 4e hits the stores.
The way they are using cool is slang. It is unproffessional to use slang I believe. So I'll continue laughing at them till they stop.
It is also because the only thing we really know about the New FR and 4th Edition is it is cool.
Besides I really hate how they are using that word.
Or as my son would say, "FR is off the Shizzle, yo". :D
-Beat the crap out of him. Please. The world needs more child abuse...;)
With overt "evil groups" and nations, one wonders why good doesn't "crusade to stop them", and what not. Of course, that's easily explained too (It's not in their best interests), but...
Perhaps the best person to ask that question would be Chamberlain, that is if he was still alive. Or maybe you could ask the UN, with the backdrop of Sudan it makes a very interesting question. In my experience very many group that would consider themselves good are more than willing to overlook evil unless it attacks them directly, or endangers the supply of their resources.
In my experience very many group that would consider themselves good are more than willing to overlook evil unless it attacks them directly, or endangers the supply of their resources.
-This is exactly what I am writing my B.A. Thesis paper on: International Realism versus International Liberalism. That is, states do only what is in their best interests, versus states do what is for the common good.
-A good book on the topic is by Samantha Powers: A Problem from Hell
Perhaps the best person to ask that question would be Chamberlain, that is if he was still alive. Or maybe you could ask the UN, with the backdrop of Sudan it makes a very interesting question. In my experience very many group that would consider themselves good are more than willing to overlook evil unless it attacks them directly, or endangers the supply of their resources.
You are correct though I think it has more to do with will...then overlooking it. War is a very costly thing after all. Also Chamberlain I think consider war itself a greater evil.
Though there is some very evil kingdoms and city in the Realms.
We really don't need everyplace to be evil do we?
"Waaaaahhhhh....
there's not enough good to fight in 4e
Waaaaaahhhhh...." ;)
In my experience very many group that would consider themselves good are more than willing to overlook evil unless it attacks them directly, or endangers the supply of their resources.
We only fight evil in nations with natural resources we desire... probably just a coincidence, though.
Here's a funny thought - suppose you are the type of group that loves to run an evil party?
"Waaaaahhhhh....
there's not enough good to fight in 4e
Waaaaaahhhhh...." ;)
We only fight evil in nations with natural resources we desire... probably just a coincidence, though.
-Ouch! as a U.S. Soldier that one hit too close home;)
In fact, I'm on your side - I would like to see EVERY single American Soldier come home safely.... and stay here.
Our constitution clearly states that the gov't may build an army for defense - it does NOT say we can build one to invade foriegn countries because of 'contrived' excuses.
Let invaders step on OUR soil, and I'll be there right beside you, buddy. ;)
As soldiers we are not allow to talk about the war (this one or any other) so I can't say that i agree with you in every single thing that you just said even if I did, Whitch I'm NOT;) saying I do. OR that My friends Brothers in Arms are taking that TOTALLY UNECESARY RISK TO FILL SOME CORPORATIONS POCKETS:headexplo but If did, I'm not allowed to talk about it. Like our saying goes... "We lose our freedom, so you can have yours".
I'm glad to know the members of our armed forces can think for themselves and are more then just "mindless pawns" - even though you can't say that. ;)
Now, before we get shut-down for going waaaaay off-topic, I'm starting to think that the 'New Realms' won't be all that terrible. I think the main thing I'm having a problem with is that the changes will change past lore (they HAVE TO, like Elves becoming Eladrin, etc).
If the new setting were simply presented as an 'Ultimates' version, as discussed in the other thread, I don't think I would be so offended by it. WotC's goals, if they actually manage to achieve them, seem admirable - lord knows there are quite a few things I myself would like to 'correct' (and do, in my OWN game).
So when it comes down to it, its not really the new setting I hate, its the fact that the old one is gone now. Sure, it still exists for most of us, and if these boards are any indication most folks will not make any sort of 'jump' to the new setting, so it will continue on in our homes and in our hearts (sorry, waxing maudlin here).
But, officially, 1e FR is dead. 2e and 3e were just extensions of it, but this 4e FR will be a whole different animal, from what I understand. Afterall, if you're killing off 99% of the population (which either an alternate timeline or huge timejump will do) and none of the NPCs will be the same, organizations will come and go, and the maps themselves will be altered*, then it it is NOTHING at all like the other two edition changes.
So, goodbye old friend - I hope your "child" is 1/10 as good as you were.
*and please don't argue that the maps were changed in 3e - they were rotated, squeezed, and shrunk-down, but basically everything was still in the same places. They just got rid of all the 'dead space' that they claim we need back again. I have a bad feeling that vast areas will be altered this time around, judging by designers opinions.
I really dont think that I'll be buying 4E Mainly cuz I have WAY too much money invested in 3x to start all over again.... I will give it a try tho and Novelwise "Oh Well..." if I don't like it is over too, just when I stoped reading X-men when Alan Davis started writing it (witch is a mayor concidence considering that he made TOO much changes TOO fast like that "Abeil looking" Marrow
)Afterall, if you're killing off 99% of the population (which either an alternate timeline or huge timejump will do) and none of the NPCs will be the same, organizations will come and go, and the maps themselves will be altered*, then it it is NOTHING at all like the other two edition changes.
So, goodbye old friend - I hope your "child" is 1/10 as good as you were.
Wow... so it's confirmed? 100 years? Link, please?
If they implement the changes they are discussing - magical traditions - such things take TIME. Either the timeline has to be moved WAY forward (enough time for said traditions to become established), orrrrrr they have to do something to the previous history of the realms to alter it, like an "alternate reality" scenario. Either way, the people who existed in the setting WILL NOT exist in the new time, be it 'alternate' OR 'future'. The only folks they are keeping FOR SURE is Drizzt and Elminster - that is ALL they have confirmed.
They even practically told us that the other Chosen will die - "Fans of the Seven Sisters probably won't be too happy..." - its really not all that hard to figure out if you just listen to what they ARE telling us.
When the game went to 2e, and then 3e, not once did they mention a 'NEW' setting - it was always referred to as FR. This time out they are constantly using the term "New Setting".
New means NEW - as in "not the OLD anymore". They're not even being all that subtle about it - just look at the changes to the Cosmology, Elves, Fiends, etc...
So, summarized (or the anticlimactic ending), you don't have official word on a 100-year jump.
Does it matter? The changes they are forcing should take a 1000 years...or never happen.
So it will feel like a 100 or more year time jump.
In fact they can use that excuse for just about anything. Warforged in the Realms..."The other version had them". New Gods? "The Otehr version of the Realms had them." Chaotic evil Paladins of Asmodeus? (now jsut try and say there isnt an inherrant oxymoron in that statement even if its going to be possible apparently) "Oh um..the other version of the Realms had it."
Dwarves worshipping Correllon as the new god of magic ....ok we don't have an answer for that except to say apparently those dwarves drank a little to much the night before or have low elf esteem...it would actually be better in that case to say "The other version had it" that way at least you could say that at least Rift dwarves havent lost their fricken minds. I mean honestly what self respecting dwarf would worship a pansy tree hugging daisy eater.
They can justify any possible dumb idea they can think of and have it all set up because "Oh they had it in the other version of the Realms and it merged so its here now"
The problem comes in with the whole merging of two worlds with um...ok what if that alternate version had another country spring up in Cormyr and now you have two kingdoms with two kings. Or all the sudden bizzaro Amnian soldiers appear in Waterdeep becasue where they're from they own Waterdeep. Or maybe Zhentil Keep was ruled by pacifists in the Alternate world...which by the way does anyone else find it funny that the one time the Zhentarim are able to actually win and actually succeed at something its at the end of the world as they know it. I bet Fzoul and Manshoon are ******.
I been lurking on these boards for years and never thought to sign up cause, well I've never seen so much vehement hate for the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk as there seems to be on these boards.
But I actually have a theory on that (and why I don't believe the designers like FR as much as they say they do.)
Think of it like this...
Your grandparents liked Glen Miller
Your Parents Liked the British Invasion
Gen X -eh wont get into that cause I'm sorry there is just so much bad music in this generation.
The new generation thinks fred Durst has talent.
So it comes down to this. This perception. Greyhawk is for old people, Forgotten Realms is your parents setting. Ebberon is the cool one cause its for the new generation who wouldnt be caught dead doing anything the old folks like. Thats at the heart of it.
Hell from what I've seen most people who 'hate' the realms don't know a thing about it. All they know is that 'old people like it' and strangely enough these are the ones that they asked what was wrong with the Realms. The people that hate it and wont play or buy anything related to it no matter what they do and have said as much. They're the people who are having all the schadenfreude for whats going on with the changes for the Realms. Some of which said as much on this thread.
I have personally no faith in the designers. I mean after all, these are the same people who when the 3E FR Setting book came out and showed the clerics picture preview highlighting followers of the gods with the middle part cut in half so you couldnt see who it was, then near giggled like school girls and said look we brought Bane tee hee.
:inlove: as is. Now some of the changes well I would probably get banned if I said what I wanted too say :rolleye2: :raincloud :surrender :headexplo . Sure I do believe that some of the Realms became cluttered, some people like it as is just fine. But to each there own.;)Think of it like this...
Your grandparents liked Glen Miller
Your Parents Liked the British Invasion
Gen X -eh wont get into that cause I'm sorry there is just so much bad music in this generation.
The new generation thinks fred Durst has talent.
So it comes down to this. This perception. Greyhawk is for old people, Forgotten Realms is your parents setting. Ebberon is the cool one cause its for the new generation who wouldnt be caught dead doing anything the old folks like. Thats at the heart of it.
Hell from what I've seen most people who 'hate' the realms don't know a thing about it. All they know is that 'old people like it' and strangely enough these are the ones that they asked what was wrong with the Realms. The people that hate it and wont play or buy anything related to it no matter what they do and have said as much. They're the people who are having all the schadenfreude for whats going on with the changes for the Realms. Some of which said as much on this thread.
I have personally no faith in the designers. I mean after all, these are the same people who when the 3E FR Setting book came out and showed the clerics picture preview highlighting followers of the gods with the middle part cut in half so you couldnt see who it was, then near giggled like school girls and said look we brought Bane tee hee.
Hello, and welcome from the lurking depths.
Really interesting observation there. Makes quite a bit of sense, to me at any rate.
And I had to delurk up from the lurking depths, Cthulhu was snoring again and I wasnt getting any sleep anyways. I liked him better when he was doing his late night talk show.
Our constitution clearly states that the gov't may build an army for defense - it does NOT say we can build one to invade foriegn countries because of 'contrived' excuses.
-Not to beat a broken record, but it says nothing of the sort.
Wars of aggression are still considered a crime under the UN charter.
-However, this was a war of self-preservation, remember? WMD, and all that.
Its just human generational nature. I mean, how many Gen Xers do you know would be caught dead wearing bell bottoms........ok bad example...Disco Leisure suits.
I'm probably on the tail-end of Generation X (it's really not an exact science) and I love tons of old music, disco included. I also disagree with you that "there's just so much bad music today". There's plenty of great music in this "era", as in any era. I'm not so jaded that I don't see that.
That's kind of off-topic, I know, but I just had to say it.
Wars of aggression are still considered a crime under the UN charter.
:rolleye2:
I'm probably on the tail-end of Generation X (it's really not an exact science) and I love tons of old music, disco included. I also disagree with you that "there's just so much bad music today". There's plenty of great music in this "era", as in any era. I'm not so jaded that I don't see that.
That's kind of off-topic, I know, but I just had to say it.
-The next generation of Faerûnian residents are going to be Gen Xers.
I'm glad to know the members of our armed forces can think for themselves and are more then just "mindless pawns" - even though you can't say that.
Ah, so if they agree with you, they can think for themselves. But if they disagree with you, then they're mindless pawns. Nice.
In fact, I'm on your side - I would like to see EVERY single American Soldier come home safely.... and stay here.
With their tails firmly tucked between their legs, I'm sure. Most soldiers, while they'd like to come home, would like to get the job done, first. But hey, if they think that, then they're just mindless pawns. What do they know?
Our constitution clearly states that the gov't may build an army for defense - it does NOT say we can build one to invade foriegn countries because of 'contrived' excuses.
Brilliant. So as long as were not directly attacked, we should ignore potential threats and allow them to grow bigger and bigger til they reach a point where they'd be impossible to resist. Wow, great idea. Why deal with a threat while it's small and weak and would cost relatively few lives to handle, when you can wait a couple of years and let the threat grow til it's capable of striking the homeland, and the cost to repulse it is tens of millions of lives?
And I guess Thomas Jefferson has a poor understanding of the Constitution, as he prosecuted a war against the Barbary Pirates during his Presidency. After all, they wouldn't have been a threat if they had just paid tribute.
Nevermind that the Constitution says nothing of the sort about only being able to use military force after first being attacked. There's ONE reference to that, and that's in reference to states making war without the consent of Congress. "Provide for the common defence", however, doesn't mean that you have to wait to get attacked before you can strike back.
Ah, so if they agree with you, they can think for themselves. But if they disagree with you, then they're mindless pawns. Nice.
It is post like this why politic should be left out of here. Forget the fact that it is very off topic. Just that the fact that now a days political opinions can't be expressed without insulting flying.
I suggest taking it over to PMs if you guys want to insult eack other.
Now back on topic...
I am curious why people consider constraints on designers a bad thing? As Chris Sims seem to think so.
BTW, you don't go to war against pirates - you pursue criminals and dispatch them accordingly. That was the mistake the Europeans made - they treated with them as if they were a political entity. One should NEVER treat with criminals.
But politics doesn't really belong here, as John has said, so my apologies.
Now who who exactly should we be thanking for destroying the Realms again?
-However, this was a war of self-preservation, remember? WMD, and all that.
Now, come on. You can´t be seriously trying *that* multiple times disproven argument, can´t you? Or do you seriously believe the WMD´s are still around somewhere in Iraq?
:rolleye2:
Yeah, how amusing. An unprovoked attack on a sovereign country, I wonder which kind of nations did *that* in the past? And exactly who were the nations who adopted that UN charter after WW2? Interesting how things turn out...
Brilliant. So as long as were not directly attacked, we should ignore potential threats and allow them to grow bigger and bigger til they reach a point where they'd be impossible to resist. Wow, great idea. Why deal with a threat while it's small and weak and would cost relatively few lives to handle, when you can wait a couple of years and let the threat grow til it's capable of striking the homeland, and the cost to repulse it is tens of millions of lives?
Exactly what danger did Saddam pose to the US? The not-existant WMDs, the non-existant nuclear program or his non-existant support for Al-Queda? Or was it his threatening mustache and firing rifles into empty air?
Lets just say I like to leave all my killing inside of a D&D game and leave it at that. ;)
BTW, you don't go to war against pirates - you pursue criminals and dispatch them accordingly. That was the mistake the Europeans made - they treated with them as if they were a political entity. One should NEVER treat with criminals.
But politics doesn't really belong here, as John has said, so my apologies.
Now who who exactly should we be thanking for destroying the Realms again?
This always reminds me of an anecdote from history class... A fearsome pirate was finally captured and brought in chains to Alexander the Great, who - by chance - happened to pass by the city.
"By what right do you terrorize the seas, scum?" Alexander asked.
"The same by which you terrorize the lands," the pirate replied. "Only I do it with one miserable ship, and they call me a pirate. You do it with a grand army - so they call you a conqueror."
Ahem. Anyway, I recently came across on some Orc King quotes, and I must say that the whole change really does seem quite extreme. Heck, the last 10 years in Realmspace were already crazy enough - new deities emerging, old ones dying, Realms-shaking events being so common they deserved an acronym - but that really takes the cake. If they wanted to change the feel of the Realms, there is the 80% of unexplored territory - Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica, and everything else that has not been detailed over and over at every edition. Why burn the old house to build a new one, when there are green lawns right next door?
Quite frankly, I wondered how the lvl 1 commoners have been coping with the last decade or so. Time of trouble, magic everywhere, invasions, and all that - if they know of 2% of what's happening in Faerun, they will probably go mad.
I'm probably on the tail-end of Generation X (it's really not an exact science) and I love tons of old music, disco included. I also disagree with you that "there's just so much bad music today". There's plenty of great music in this "era", as in any era. I'm not so jaded that I don't see that.
That's kind of off-topic, I know, but I just had to say it.
Lol. Yes, we are tail-end Gen X Rino. Anyways, I do not think that it would require 100 years to develop new "traditions" et cetera. Looking just at U.S. organizations, 10-20 years should be fine. 50 years is more than enough time. A 100 year time jump seems way too long. Anyways, the 100 year time jump would only really effect halfings, humans, and really elderly dwarf NPCs. It is a light nap for elves, and just a bit more of that for younger dwarves. I think coming to the conclusion that it will 100 years is premature. Rich has said that we will know by sometime in January at the latest.
-The next generation of Faerûnian residents are going to be Gen Xers.
We are already in Faerun, and I for one am not overly happy with the changes. I will most likely end up coping with them, but I am not happy with them.
Looking just at US organizations, consider the effects of mass media and telecommunications, not to mention a highly advanced transportation infrastructure, all to move those ideas around...
But most of these conveniences are available in Faerun via magic. And the majority of magic items which supply these modern conveniences in Faerun that created before the Spellplague will still be functional after the Spellplague (according to Rich). And who would have these magic items? Mostly the mages that survived the Spellplague and developed the new magic traditions would be my guess.
Especially after something like the Spellplauge where, ooops there goes all the knowledge I spent my entire life learning time to start all over. For most of them they'll be to busy frantically trying to come out of their insanity and rebuild their power mixed in with a bit of paranoia (because there is no wizard who doesnt have wizarldy enemies they'd rather not have get the jump on them so to speak. The typical wizard is protective about their magic anyways this is just going to make it worse not increase the flow of new magic traditions.
You could say that places like Cormyr with the War Wizards might band together, same with the Zhentarim (maybe, they'll probably use it to off their rivals within the organization more likely) Realistically you're looking at generations before any 'traditions' get built. After all isnt that what a tradition is by definition. And its hard to make a tradition anyways when say, you're the only War wizard that survived being blown up or going so insane you're drooling on yourself.
Not that its going to matter since its probably going to be something like "Oh all these traditions with their +6 wands" existed in the other Realms so they're here now already.
And while I'm thinking about it, people like Larloch, who's entire existance is magic, if he survives is going to be quite upset that he has to start all over and he never seemed to be the type that would take "Oh everything you've worked on for several millenia is now useless" very well. In fact if I were Cyric (who lets face it isnt going to stay in 'prison' for very long) and Shar (who apparently gets off without any penalty is going to have a lot of angry people looking to pay them back. Which while they may not be able to actually get at them per se (Larloch might have been able to considering how fragile gods seem to be) I can see the churches of Char and Cyric being torn apart by people not happy with what their patrons did to them (Killing Mystra, but more likely what that did to them personally)
And no, by my analogy, Gen X has been in Faerun all along...its the Gen Y (Lost Generation, ADD Generation whatever you want to call them) that they seem to want to move in to our burned out homes. (I count Gen X as being born mid-70's and gradutating around mid 90's) And yes we had good music, but we also had Milli Vanilli and the New Kids on the Block and Vanilla Ice....I personally think most of todays music sounds the same no matter who the band is.
And no, by my analogy, Gen X has been in Faerun all along...its the Gen Y (Lost Generation, ADD Generation whatever you want to call them) that they seem to want to move in to our burned out homes. (I count Gen X as being born mid-70's and gradutating around mid 90's) And yes we had good music, but we also had Milli Vanilli and the New Kids on the Block and Vanilla Ice....I personally think most of todays music sounds the same no matter who the band is.
-Crap. I always thought that I was in Generation X, until I looked up what it actually constituted. Now I find out that I'm considered to be in Generation Y. That sucks majorly. Crap.
-Crap. I always thought that I was in Generation X, until I looked up what it actually constituted. Now I find out that I'm considered to be in Generation Y. That sucks majorly. Crap.
I wouldn't worry about it--like I said, it's not an exact science. Everyone defines the generations differently. I was not born in the 70s (I was born in the early 80s), but some would still consider that the very end of Generation X.
I still disagree with Sir Shadow about music, but oh well.
So, what generation are the mid-80s? In American culture, that is... I wonder how I would be perceived if I came over for a beer or two ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Silent_Generation
By the way, TIME says Gen X is from 1967-1980. We're in between Baby Boomer and Generation Me.
Which part do you disagree with? The fact that some of our music really sucks or that most of todays music seems to sound the same.
Either way Gen X is becoming obsolete in marketting eyes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Silent_Generation
ACK! Howe and Strauss's work doesn't strike me as being very neutral or scholarly.
I mean, Devil-child films? Come on (yes, I've heard of their work before). And it's interesting how the grandchildren of these two people (from what I've read) fit into the next "Heroic" generation. Aww, how sweet!
Which part do you disagree with? The fact that some of our music really sucks or that most of todays music seems to sound the same.
I agree that some music sucks, but that's true for any "period".
As for today's music sounding the same? Well, again, in this period as in any period, certain types of music will become popular and we'll hear it a lot. But even though that might be exhaustive, I don't think that means said music is intrinsically bad. Some songs will be done well, others done poorly. I don't think genre or style has much to do with that.
I'm glad that most music has to pass the same kind of process like alchemy (the transformation from lead to gold). I only listen to gold music (after having experienced lead music), which can be from any age, my list includes: Mozart, Bethoveen, etc / Creedence, Deep Purple, Iron Maiden, Jimi Hendrix, Van Halen, Alice Cooper, Bon Jovi, etc. / Nightwish, HammerFall, Stratovarius, Sonata Arctica, etc.
I've thought about this topic, and I think you alluded to the mystery of why older music always seems better to a lot of people. The reason (or, "a" reason)--the bad older music doesn't get played much any more. The classics have been minnowed out (and of course, add a dose of nostalgia to that).
Heck, I'd buy you a beer!
Aww, thanks. You're a dear!
I'll return the favor, don't worry. Just let me know if you think you've had too much ;)So I'm the supposed millenial generation, eh? That's cute. I never thought of myself as the hero type, though I promise to do my best if I have to
. Back to the topic, I really wonder how much attention WotC is paying to that stuff in their development plans. For example, do they just look at the amount of (e-)mail they get, or do they actually try to get people's age and other marketing statistics factored. I presume that they do pay that kind of thing at least some attention, of course.Back to the topic, I really wonder how much attention WotC is paying to that stuff in their development plans. For example, do they just look at the amount of (e-)mail they get, or do they actually try to get people's age and other marketing statistics factored. I presume that they do pay that kind of thing at least some attention, of course.
-Makes you wonder, doesn't it. Well, as a company, they are not going to randomly do something that might cost them money. So, I am sure that they have done some kind of marketing research.
Now, seeing as how she gets killed anyway in just a few years, it just feels like the PCs effectively accomplish nothing beyond releasing a few mega-powerful monsters on the world. My apologies, but it does bug me a little.
-Makes you wonder, doesn't it. Well, as a company, they are not going to randomly do something that might cost them money. So, I am sure that they have done some kind of marketing research.
I would not be too quick to give them credit for that. ;)
Now, seeing as how she gets killed anyway in just a few years, it just feels like the PCs effectively accomplish nothing beyond releasing a few mega-powerful monsters on the world. My apologies, but it does bug me a little.
-Makes me believe that the adventure storyline was written and set in stone before the 43 storyline was written and set in stone.
I would not be too quick to give them credit for that.
-Say what you want about WotC, but they are a large company. They are not going to randomly make an untested gamble. The test group in question though...Them, we have no idea. It could have, theoretically been made up of all of the designers who are doing the changes. Don't know.
A lot of that marketing research is more like semi-informed guesswork from what I've seen of it...
I have to admit, I agree. And of course, interpreting market research is an issue in itself.
One thing that bugs me about Cyris and Shar killing Mystra is, the whole point of the most recent three Realms adventures released was to save Mystra from Shar and Cyric.
Now, seeing as how she gets killed anyway in just a few years, it just feels like the PCs effectively accomplish nothing beyond releasing a few mega-powerful monsters on the world. My apologies, but it does bug me a little.
Wow. So these adventures basically just put the PCs (which, supposedly, WotC cares very much about "elevating") into the role of Pandora-esque dupes who end up causing more problems than they solve? Nice.
This is what I've disliked for a long time--having NPCs solve problems in lieu of PCs, while making PCs out to be problem creators.
I wouldn't worry about it--like I said, it's not an exact science. Everyone defines the generations differently. I was not born in the 70s (I was born in the early 80s), but some would still consider that the very end of Generation X.
I still disagree with Sir Shadow about music, but oh well.
Hey, I was born in the 70s -- and I still wear bell-bottoms! Disco shall *never* die, you know? ;) :D
Wow. So these adventures basically just put the PCs (which, supposedly, WotC cares very much about "elevating") into the role of Pandora-esque dupes who end up causing more problems than they solve? Nice.
This is what I've disliked for a long time--having NPCs solve problems in lieu of PCs, while making PCs out to be problem creators.
And the "fame" of the Realms as the place where all-powerful NPCs do everything and the PCs sit on the sidelines spreads
. Seriously, I hope the GHotR is eventually overwritten on the entire "Death of Mystra" thing. Having a deity that doesn't so much preside over magic as much as she is magic was one of the coolest things I found in FR cosmology. If everyone's worried about Mystra being so powerful or the Chosen being near-undefeatable (yeah right), then weaken them, don't erase them...
Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine.
you know, they bring back all those old characters and mysteries so you can say goodbye...
Look Folks! It's the TERRASEER!!!!!!!!
Look Folks...Isn't that Auglathra The Mad Seer???[Spelling I know]
HOLY WOWSERS PEEPS!!! It's the death seen of Sylune the Chosen!!!
On one hand they are doing a show and byebye thing
but the way they are explaining the mysteries that are going to be gone in 4ED don't make sense...Iron fang Keep springs to mind...that just made me go WTF???
And on the other hand it is sad that they seem to think this is how to calm us down...
I haven't been a 12 year old fanboy since 1978...and I do not like being condescended to.
I still not see the point in those 3 adventures...especially since Mystra still dies in the end...what a waste of my money and the time of my players.
And then of course we'll get the adventure where the PCs decide to go after Cyric in his prison for revenge, cuz this time its personal, and accidentally end up freeing him instead, oh noes!
Hey, I was born in the 70s -- and I still wear bell-bottoms! Disco shall *never* die, you know? ;) :D
*chuckles* Really, a lot of great fashion is based on clothing from older eras. I wouldn't wear a 70s costume, but 70s-ish pants or shoes? Sure!
"But at least your players can say they tried"...
I know, how riveting! That's the stuff all the great tales are made of!
Talk about ending 3E with a "BANG!"
A lot of that marketing research is more like semi-informed guesswork from what I've seen of it...
With zero (?) marketing research of your own, though, it's kind of hard to prove Wotc's is "semi-informed guesswork".
Personaly I really never experienced a generation gap with D&D before...is there one?
-Personally, I think there is. And, believe it or not, but I think that the younger players are actually better than the older players. That's probably just because of the crappy people I play D&D with, though.
-Here's the age demographic of the D&D player's I've ever played with:
Sister: 16
Cousin 1: 17
Me: 21
My Girlfriend: 21
My Friend: 21
Cousin 2: 27
Step-Father: 39
Step-Father's Friend 1: 37
Step-Father's Friend 1's Wife: 34
Step-Father's Friend 2: 37
Step-Father's Friend 3: 29
Step-Father's Friend 4: 36
-That's more or less it. There's a clear age disctintion there. While not all, the majority of the "older" players are primarily interested in simply killing things, dislike elaborate detail, and are generally unsure about the more complex rules. The "younger" players primarily like more detail, and like campaigns/events that do not primarily evolve around wanton destruction. I think my example might be the opposite of the expected norms, though. Heh.
-The most illuminating specific example I have is this: In a campaign, our characters were in a town where slavery was legal and openly practiced, and a fighting tornament was going on. Step-Father's Friend 1 entered the contest, so that he could win the 10,000 GP prize, and add further magical enhancements to his already grossly overpowered battle-axe. Cousin 2 entered the competition so that he could win the 10,000 GP and buy as many slaves as he could, so that he could free them once we left the town, and then wanted to come back at a later point, to further weaken the slave operations.
That's more or less it. There's a clear age disctintion there. While not all, the majority of the "older" players are primarily interested in simply killing things, dislike elaborate detail, and are generally unsure about the more complex rules. The "younger" players primarily like more detail, and like campaigns/events that do not primarily evolve around wanton destruction. I think my example might be the opposite of the expected norms, though. Heh.
-The most illuminating specific example I have is this: In a campaign, our characters were in a town where slavery was legal and openly practiced, and a fighting tornament was going on. Step-Father's Friend 1 entered the contest, so that he could win the 10,000 GP prize, and add further magical enhancements to his already grossly overpowered battle-axe. Cousin 2 entered the competition so that he could win the 10,000 GP and buy as many slaves as he could, so that he could free them once we left the town, and then wanted to come back at a later point, to further weaken the slave operations.
A interesting example though I'll be honest I really can't say that age has much to do with style of play...though older people tend to hate the more complex rules more often then not. Personaly I just think table top gamers are a very hard group to categorize.
Ebberon is 'cool'. Hell just look at some of the buzzwords they used when that horrid thing (personal opinion) came out. It was Ebberon is this, Ebberon is that, ect ect ect. In my mind they tried to make it to be the 'in' thing.
Forgotten Realms, when was the last time you heard them use 'cool' in regards to the forgotten realms with anything that didn't make you recoil in horror.
If their marketting research asked any FR fans (a big if) it was the people who say the types of things like "oh in this one game, I was a fighter/warlock/hexblade/red wizard/purple dragon knight and I killed Elminster, took over Zhentil Keep and became a god where I beat up Cyric and Bane etc etc etc" Which is why FR isn't 'cool'. Because most FR DM's wouldn't let idiocy like that happen. Its not the lore (which by the way if the head designer doesnt think there is a problem with the lore why are they 'fixing' a problem they don't think is there?)
Greyhawk...everytime it seems to be mentioned (especially on these forums) its grognard this, grognard that, grognard is used so much it makes me wonder if the people who spout off that word every single post (which infects FR boards to now) even know what the hell the word means or if they're just parroting internet slang to look 'cool'
Now look at the new buzzwords (or old buzzwords as the case may be) and look at what they're being focused to. So it makes me think there is a Generational gap and perception towards certain settings. Ebberon was made to cater to the anime/wuxia/ hack and slash fans and they should have a setting that they like and enjoy (as it keeps them away from me and my games and keeps me from banging my head on the table and saying no you cant have a buster sword)
Which isnt to say there hasnt always been powergamers and munchkins running around annoying people, but WOTC seems ( at least to me) to cater to them and make it so that thats what the game is all about and powergamers don't like the fact that in the Realms, no matter how big and bad you think you are, there is always someone stronger (like Larloch)
So, even if I did ramble a bit, thats what I meant by Generational Gap. The Realms don't fit the ADD Generation because its 'to much to read, I don't wanna read'
A interesting example though I'll be honest I really can't say that age has much to do with style of play...though older people tend to hate the more complex rules more often then not.
-That is something I also hypothesized, as some of the older rules of the game were much more simplified ("Elf", or "Magic-User" as a class, for example. Blech. :mad
Oh well the whole generational thing is just an observed theory on my part. Mostly. Just somethng I peiced together in my warped mind from what I've seen and observed.
Ebberon is 'cool'. Hell just look at some of the buzzwords they used when that horrid thing (personal opinion) came out. It was Ebberon is this, Ebberon is that, ect ect ect. In my mind they tried to make it to be the 'in' thing.
Forgotten Realms, when was the last time you heard them use 'cool' in regards to the forgotten realms with anything that didn't make you recoil in horror.
If their marketting research asked any FR fans (a big if) it was the people who say the types of things like "oh in this one game, I was a fighter/warlock/hexblade/red wizard/purple dragon knight and I killed Elminster, took over Zhentil Keep and became a god where I beat up Cyric and Bane etc etc etc" Which is why FR isn't 'cool'. Because most FR DM's wouldn't let idiocy like that happen. Its not the lore (which by the way if the head designer doesnt think there is a problem with the lore why are they 'fixing' a problem they don't think is there?)
Greyhawk...everytime it seems to be mentioned (especially on these forums) its grognard this, grognard that, grognard is used so much it makes me wonder if the people who spout off that word every single post (which infects FR boards to now) even know what the hell the word means or if they're just parroting internet slang to look 'cool'
Now look at the new buzzwords (or old buzzwords as the case may be) and look at what they're being focused to. So it makes me think there is a Generational gap and perception towards certain settings. Ebberon was made to cater to the anime/wuxia/ hack and slash fans and they should have a setting that they like and enjoy (as it keeps them away from me and my games and keeps me from banging my head on the table and saying no you cant have a buster sword)
Which isnt to say there hasnt always been powergamers and munchkins running around annoying people, but WOTC seems ( at least to me) to cater to them and make it so that thats what the game is all about and powergamers don't like the fact that in the Realms, no matter how big and bad you think you are, there is always someone stronger (like Larloch)
So, even if I did ramble a bit, thats what I meant by Generational Gap. The Realms don't fit the ADD Generation because its 'to much to read, I don't wanna read'
I think I disagree or think in part that to most gamers the game isn't so much generational. I mean it generaly attracts...people who are outcasts. I don't mean this as a insult or anything...I am one too after all. I mean the game that attracted people to it back in the 70's attract more and more people from the 80's, then again in the 90's, and maybe again in the 2000's. It really hasn't changed that much. Sure the rules get streamlined a bit...but the spirit of the game was in general still intact. This new edition to me is killing that spirit.
But you're right in the fact that the new whatever it is, is killing the spirit.
I was more referring to the settings than the game itself which is a whole new kettle of fish. I see the settings as popular/unpopular along general generational lines. Its not an exact science and like I said its only a theory.
But you're right in the fact that the new whatever it is, is killing the spirit.
I mean you might be right. I have just different experiences with the game. Though the thing is about settings...I like Eberron. I like the Realms. They offer(or used to) something different...but both were world I could get into. Though I liked almost every campaign setting they have ever done( with the exception of Dragonlance...it was too focused on one storyline...and Birthright...which wasn't a bad world but was dragged down by the scion abilities and the whole govermental RPing system). So I don't even think setting appeal to one generation over the other. But like I said you could be right this is pure conjecture.
-That is something I also hypothesized, as some of the older rules of the game were much more simplified ("Elf", or "Magic-User" as a class, for example. Blech. :mad
Hey...the Magic-User class is just what we(us old timers) used to call wizards It is no more complex or simpler then it is now. Damn younglings making fun of us....:P
Though I agree I hate the name Magic-User with the passion of a thousand suns...I am sure glad they finaly just called them Wizards...wasn't too fond of Mage either...
The worst power gamer I've ever met is 27 years old. He doesn't care about role-playing or the story. He just wants to kill monsters, take their stuff, and go up in level. (he is a great guy, very fun, and one of my best friends) My point is that the hack-n-slash mindset is not limited to the kiddies.
-See, I'm the inverse. Go figure.
Hey...the Magic-User class is just what we(us old timers) used to call wizards It is no more complex or simpler then it is now. Damn younglings making fun of us....:P
Though I agree I hate the name Magic-User with the passion of a thousand suns...I am sure glad they finaly just called them Wizards...wasn't too fond of Mage either...
-It's more the name that I don't like. And, the fact that 'Elf' was somehow a class.
Dragonlance was ok until it tried going diceless. Seriously, with the stereotype (and truthful one at that) at how gamers are about their dice, who thought that was a good idea?
Birthright seemed like a good idea done wrong. Like Uwe Boll movies.
Played Greyhawk once, (tried to find Bigby so I could smack him and tell him to stop beating that horse to death) Never really caught my imagination much.
And outside my own world, Faerun is my favorite place to play in and DM in. As long as I can ignore Salvatore's idiocy. I always liked MYstra, Myrkull, never liked Shadowdale or any of the Dales for that matter (way to forced down your throat kinda attention) I love the two Liches (Tam and Larloch) Theres jsut so much there to explore that no matter how long you've been playing in the Realms or reading about the realms, there is just sooooo much to still explore and I love that.
Hell I played (with like I said the exception of Ebberon) every setting just about that they've made. (my poor Giff, always getting blown up) But the Realms have always been THE place for me.
But yeah it is pure conjecture/educated guess/obersvation on my part. I might be wrong, but at least I dont think so, but theres always that chance.
The worst power gamer I've ever met is 27 years old. He doesn't care about role-playing or the story. He just wants to kill monsters, take their stuff, and go up in level. (he is a great guy, very fun, and one of my best friends) My point is that the hack-n-slash mindset is not limited to the kiddies.
Oh never said it was, and far from it. I'm sure ever since its first printing D&D has attracted powergaming hack and slash only people.
I can recall long time ago Gary Gygax (and probably every other D&D author designer actually) writing that people would come up to him and say things like "In my game I killed Vecna/Mordenkainen/Pelor/etc all by myself and took all his stuff all by myself'
So its by far a new phenomenon. Just seems to be more pronounced and ...well frankly easier and getting easier to do that sort of thing. Hell you read Tome and Blood and theres a little sidebar that tells you how to do it and get over the rules in a "sneaky way" Its really bad when a rule book tells you how to break its own rules (playerwise)
-It's more the name that I don't like. And, the fact that 'Elf' was somehow a class.
That was basic D&D...the word basic would implied something simpler. Personaly if they wanted a simpler version of the game I think they should have brought that back.
-See, I'm the inverse. Go figure.
-It's more the name that I don't like. And, the fact that 'Elf' was somehow a class.
Eh was never to fond of that myself. But I think that had more to do with the fact that the 'elf' was seen as being able to fight and use magic at the same time so they didn't need a class on top of that . It'd be like Multiclassing into Fighter when you're already a fifth level fighter. Think it was just an offshoot of D&D wargaming origons.
And I actually prefer Mage to Wizard. Wizard sounds like an old guy with a long white beard and a pointy hat. Mage just sounds better.
Eh, just been looking over the ebberon book recently. Not impressed, wasnt impressed when I heard about the stuff, think the artwork looks silly, why are dwarves Bankers and halflings riding dinosaurs. Never played it so cant say for certain but just seems to much overthetop silly stuff (my opinion)
Dragonlance was ok until it tried going diceless. Seriously, with the stereotype (and truthful one at that) at how gamers are about their dice, who thought that was a good idea?
Birthright seemed like a good idea done wrong. Like Uwe Boll movies.
Played Greyhawk once, (tried to find Bigby so I could smack him and tell him to stop beating that horse to death) Never really caught my imagination much.
And outside my own world, Faerun is my favorite place to play in and DM in. As long as I can ignore Salvatore's idiocy. I always liked MYstra, Myrkull, never liked Shadowdale or any of the Dales for that matter (way to forced down your throat kinda attention) I love the two Liches (Tam and Larloch) Theres jsut so much there to explore that no matter how long you've been playing in the Realms or reading about the realms, there is just sooooo much to still explore and I love that.
Hell I played (with like I said the exception of Ebberon) every setting just about that they've made. (my poor Giff, always getting blown up) But the Realms have always been THE place for me.
But yeah it is pure conjecture/educated guess/obersvation on my part. I might be wrong, but at least I dont think so, but theres always that chance.
This is where we disagree...just a tad. Personaly I don't think everybody(even within the same generation) will like exactly the same things. I mean their has been people who have always hated the Realms...that is fine. You can't please everybody all the time. Which is by the way why I think the changes to appeal to people who don't like the Realms at the expense of people who do is a very bad mistake. I think they should've just created a third campaign setting. Which means they can make a world that appeals to people that FR and Eberron has missed...and get to be more creative without restraint as much. But for some reason they discarded this idea because they thought that instead of slowly putting the world out there to see if people would nibble they felt the need to put as much support as Eberron and the Realms recieve.
That was basic D&D...the word basic would implied something simpler. Personaly if they wanted a simpler version of the game I think they should have brought that back.
*shudder* Can you see how that would turn out? The Red Magic Users of Thay?
*shudder* Can you see how that would turn out? The Red Magic Users of Thay?
Oh please the mighty designers of 4th edition please do not bring back that name...
and in 1st edition when Wizards were known as Magic-Users...the Red Wizards of Thay were still known as The Red Wizards of Thay.
Though Magic-Users of the Coast...sounds odd...
This is where we disagree...just a tad. Personaly I don't think everybody(even within the same generation) will like exactly the same things. I mean their has been people who have always hated the Realms...that is fine. You can't please everybody all the time. Which is by the way why I think the changes to appeal to people who don't like the Realms at the expense of people who do is a very bad mistake. I think they should've just created a third campaign setting. Which means they can make a world that appeals to people that FR and Eberron has missed...and get to be more creative without restraint as much. But for some reason they discarded this idea because they thought that instead of slowly putting the world out there to see if people would nibble they felt the need to put as much support as Eberron and the Realms recieve.
You're right, not everyone is gonna like the same thing, well until Big Brother comes along anyways
But thats the thing though, they seem to have made the changes (or are making the changes however you want to see it) based on people who arent fans of the Realms and by their own admission even with the changes won't play in the Realms. Its just pure Shadenfrueda (probably mangled that).
Fact is, from what I've read, they are making a third setting focused entirely on the points of light thing which, if I was a really cynical person I'd think they were trying to chase people OUT of the Realms to the new place whatever it is. Good thing I'm not THAT cynical. I can only be so pessemistic before I get a migraine.
Oh please the mighty designers of 4th edition please do not bring back that name...
and in 1st edition when Wizards were known as Magic-Users...the Red Wizards of Thay were still known as The Red Wizards of Thay.
See thats because in their infinite wisdom even they knew that was a dumb name and didnt want anything to do with it.
*shudder* Can you see how that would turn out? The Red Magic Users of Thay?
-Heh.
With zero (?) marketing research of your own, though, it's kind of hard to prove Wotc's is "semi-informed guesswork".
I don't recall saying anything about WotC in particular... lemme see... no, not one mention of them there in that quote. That was a very general statement, which was expressed based on my own experiences with market research, and seeing three businesses go right down the drain because of bad attempts at it.
-That is something I also hypothesized, as some of the older rules of the game were much more simplified ("Elf", or "Magic-User" as a class, for example. Blech. :mad
I loved those classes. I thought my elf was hot stuff, until I discovered the faster level progression at higher levels of the cleric. I was converted then, and have never gone back (not counting my foray into 3.5 Druid.) :D
And I prefer the term Mage myself.
And I'm wondering exactly why my upstairs neighbor decided midnight was a good time to start up The Ramones loud enough for me to understand every bloody lyric...
As a generaliztion, I tend to agree with Sir Shadow's generational theory, but it certainly isn't an across the board truism, which I don't recall him mentioning it being.
Never said he said it was a broad trueism and on certain subjects I agree with his generational thoery...I just disagree with it about D&D.
And I prefer the term Mage myself.
No accunting for taste. ;)
And I'm wondering exactly why my upstairs neighbor decided midnight was a good time to start up The Ramones loud enough for me to understand every bloody lyric...
I am sorry to hear about that. I once had Hispanic neighbors who blasted Spainish music at odds hours of the night on the weekends...it was very strange hearing some very familar songs with Spainish lyrics.
Wasn't that bothered by the Ramones actually, even if I never really liked them much... was the Opera with the screeching soprano (before anyone asks, I do like opera quite a bit) that was really driving me nuts that made me march upstairs in the bitter cold.
Though the spanish covers of stuff can be a little jarring at times, I'd definitely agree with that. The rap in particular is a little... odd.
I know, how riveting! That's the stuff all the great tales are made of!
Talk about ending 3E with a "BANG!"
More like a whimper, really.
Birthright seemed like a good idea done wrong. Like Uwe Boll movies.
I think they should've just created a third campaign setting. Which means they can make a world that appeals to people that FR and Eberron has missed...and get to be more creative without restraint as much.
I don't recall saying anything about WotC in particular... lemme see... no, not one mention of them there in that quote. That was a very general statement, which was expressed based on my own experiences with market research, and seeing three businesses go right down the drain because of bad attempts at it.
Ah, okay, so when Lord Karsus mentioned WotC market research, and when you then replied to that post with a snide remark about marketing research in general, you weren't actually implying that WotC's is part of that "a lot"? You consider WotC market research NOT-semi-informed guesswork?
Eh, just been looking over the ebberon book recently. Not impressed, wasnt impressed when I heard about the stuff, think the artwork looks silly, why are dwarves Bankers and halflings riding dinosaurs. Never played it so cant say for certain but just seems to much overthetop silly stuff (my opinion)
What part of Halruaan's super-mages commanding airships, the Simbul exploding into lighting-fire-silverfire-whatever and destroying entire armies (undead or living), elven mages throwing spells strong enough to wipe nations, gods battling out in the mortal realm, lands and seas emerging and disappearing and changing place overnight, a gigantic dungeon under a mountain next to a metropolis (wait, Sharn or Waterdeep...?), or FLYING MOUNTAIN CITIES you don't consider over the top? Just curious.
Ah, okay, so when Lord Karsus mentioned WotC market research, and when you then replied to that post with a snide remark about marketing research in general, you weren't actually implying that WotC's is part of that "a lot"? You consider WotC market research NOT-semi-informed guesswork?
My but we're feeling belligerent, aren't we? That it was a general statement should be taken as I think every company out there is guilty of it to some extent, at one point or another. Not just WotC, not just the ones I'm personally acquainted with, but everyone... it would be next to impossible for it not to be.
What part of Halruaan's super-mages commanding airships, the Simbul exploding into lighting-fire-silverfire-whatever and destroying entire armies (undead or living), elven mages throwing spells strong enough to wipe nations, gods battling out in the mortal realm, lands and seas emerging and disappearing and changing place overnight, a gigantic dungeon under a mountain next to a metropolis (wait, Sharn or Waterdeep...?), or FLYING MOUNTAIN CITIES you don't consider over the top? Just curious.
Not really addressed at me, but it was in the quote thing, so I'll take a stab at it... Though I'm a little curious myself, that if you seem to find so many problems with the Realms, why are you bothering with this? Anyway, most of it is over the top, but its more acceptable since its built up over time, a creeping over-the-topness as it were, rather than a smack you on the head from the start sort of over-the-topness. We've seen how this stuff comes about and fits in, the stories are there, some good, some bad, but we see where the over-the-topness fits in. In Eberron, its just flopped onto the table, little explanation of how it got there, and it just feels like someone took all these 'cool' ideas, tossed them in the blender, and hit frappe...
What part of Halruaan's super-mages commanding airships, the Simbul exploding into lighting-fire-silverfire-whatever and destroying entire armies (undead or living), elven mages throwing spells strong enough to wipe nations, gods battling out in the mortal realm, lands and seas emerging and disappearing and changing place overnight, a gigantic dungeon under a mountain next to a metropolis (wait, Sharn or Waterdeep...?), or FLYING MOUNTAIN CITIES you don't consider over the top? Just curious.
The Simbul is a wizard(sorcerer whatever) I expect the Archmages to be demigod-like in power. Thats why most of them become wizards in the first place. I don't think I've ever read a single story where a wizard said I want as much power to keep up with the brainless grunt protecting me when we get older. I always thought that aside from knowledge, all consuming near godlike power was the point of becoming a wizard. *sighs* Thats what gets me so much about the whole 'my fighter isnt as powerful as a wizard' thing. Um.....you're never gonna be otherwise whats the point of becoming a wizard in the first place if its just a spereate/but equal power source.
Hell if thats the case you could just breeze through a couple weeks of Bard college and then.....
But mostly its what Stigger said. Its the Kitchen sink approach and from what I've seen so far, theres no real cohesion to it, no rational behind it other than a place to lump in all the poorly conciieved ideas along with everything else. After all, if its in D&D its in Ebberon. Says so right in the book. Just a case of cramming to much in (and not being all that original about it)
FR appeals to a certain group as well, yet the setting is being drastically changed to try to grab some new 'numbers' for the corporate types. They tried this with GH and failed, so why do they assume it will work now?
This is the problem in a nutshell - if they want to get those folks who aren't playing FR or Eberron, then a third new setting would be the way to go. I suppose they know this, because they are calling it "new". However, folks who hate FR will most likely continue to hate FR, no matter what edition it is, whereas folks who love FR will be alienated and either go elsewhere or continue their games in the current (3e) setting. Changing something a certain group loves into something different with hopes of attracting new people is foolish and has been proven TIME AND AGAIN to be a BAD business model - "New Coke", anyone?
I have NOTHING against the new setting - I hope it's a winner - I just don't understand why they felt they needed to 're-write' FR to create it. I guess they wanted to take the 'cool' parts (mind you, thats HIGHLY subjective) and 'spruce-up' the rest. All-in-all, that also is not too terrible an idea - but it appears they may be throwing the baby out with the bath water. Only time will tell, I suppose, but this was a HUGE risk on their part.
The other thing I think helped along this decision was something I read in a blog (Janes Wyatt's?) about HOW the decision came about. It seems the novels played a BIG part in it - they were running out of room toward the end there - just look at the last few pages of the GHotR; what was it? Something like an RSE every six months? By advancing the time-line they create new lore and give the authors room to play in. Also not so bad on the surface, but if they go way beyond 15-20 years then they have 'lost us'. Think of our planet - would you be comfortable moving from 1900 to 2007? Nothing at all would be the same, and everyone you knew would be dead.
I think another big aspect of what they are going for is to pull-in all those folks who ONLY read the novels and/or play the video games. A lot of those folks don't RPG, so by 'simplifying' the Realms they can grab these non-gamers. Another excellent idea by all appearances, and I'm all for that. I think that is why Drizzt appeared on the cover of the GHotR - he is a universally known icon, unlike Elminster who is primarily on well known to the P&P crowd. The Digital Incentive is another clue that they are trying to grab the computer crowd away from their monitors... good luck with that.
Anyway, my point is that by trying to make a single setting that works for everyone is preposterous - "One size does NOT fit all". At the very least they should have a 'Basic' and 'Advance' version of the game, like the good ol' days. The setting need not be changed, just the ruleset you use with them. But it appears we are getting dragged down this road whether we like it or not, so I hope this "newer, simpler D&D and FR" is brilliant, because it's going to have to be to survive.
*chuckles* Really, a lot of great fashion is based on clothing from older eras. I wouldn't wear a 70s costume, but 70s-ish pants or shoes? Sure!
I still shudder at the 80s -- the music, hairstyle, fashion... I've even got rid of all my photos from that horrible decade. ;) It did have some nostalgic TV-shows, however (e.g. 'McGyver', 'Knight Rider', 'Miami Vice').
Ever see that Eddie Izzard routine when he's comparing Hitler to Napoleon? Bad idea invading Russia in winter... Hitler comes along, has a better idea, it's gonna be great, no, whoops, exactly the same idea as Napoleon... moral of our story is don't invade Russia in winter... that reminds me of what they're doing with 4e Realms.
Very funny guy, and yes... WotC has a "new" idea. They will invade Russia in the winter.
One of my players said that the 3 modules read like an homage to those recap shows...
you know, they bring back all those old characters and mysteries so you can say goodbye...
Look Folks! It's the TERRASEER!!!!!!!!
Look Folks...Isn't that Auglathra The Mad Seer???[Spelling I know]
HOLY WOWSERS PEEPS!!! It's the death seen of Sylune the Chosen!!!
On one hand they are doing a show and byebye thing
but the way they are explaining the mysteries that are going to be gone in 4ED don't make sense...Iron fang Keep springs to mind...that just made me go WTF???
And on the other hand it is sad that they seem to think this is how to calm us down...
I haven't been a 12 year old fanboy since 1978...and I do not like being condescended to.
I still not see the point in those 3 adventures...especially since Mystra still dies in the end...what a waste of my money and the time of my players.
All true... sad isn't it?
Oh well, I have decided to stop stressing about all this. I was getting to a place one could call "gave too much of a crap for all it was worth..."
I have decided not to buy anything 4E, (FR, core or otherwise) and instead have been shopping around for the last two months completing my 3.5 collection. As of this Monday, I have all 3.5 Core and FR accessories, as well as all 3.5 FR adventures (yes, even this dreaded trilogy we're talking about). I found that these adventures, despite the letdowns in terms of FR plot/RSEs, are very high quality in terms of pure "gaming / DM time saver products". I will completely disregard the plot in all these, but use the encounters to save me some precious time as a DM. I find the Shadow Magic / Shadow Plane themes interesting to explore, so I will run these three adventures for the simple fun of exploring the game effects of Shadow Magic, Shadow Plane illumination variants, etc. (i.e. something new for the players to experience)
However, any of you have ideas to tweak the overall plot *easily* so as to ignore having all major NPCs bite the dust? (i.e. I want to keep all combat encounters while disregarding the death of Scullya, etc.) I guess my questions come from the fact that I haven't read them in detail yet (just skimmed them / looked at the pictures! :D ) I don't mind having my PCs swing a couple times at Scullya, but, for example, she'd hit the dimension door button on her breastplate whenever she'd be about to die. Could someone well-versed in the *bad* letdowns of these adventures put up a point-form list of "things to do" to make these adventures playable without having them have an impact on the world at all?
Why is that? Because they WANT a built in threshold of collapse. The goal of retail is not to create a sustainable, working, perpetual game system, because they know that 20 percent of the people give them eighty percent of their money.
When the game is no longer sustainable, they create a new game, and whether or not it's better or worse than the old one doesn't matter, as long as it's different enough that the old rules are observable in terms of the new ones in name only.
You CAN'T run 4th with the 3E stuff because the 4E flavor, especially the stuff involving the planes, rips the 3E lore and history of the Realms to pieces.
-Im slightly tipsy at the moment, and listening to Pink Floyd, which doesn't make matter better, I guess. I'll probably respond tomorrow sometime, when I get my memory back. ;)
Seriously though, I don't know if I'd go as far as Msatran did, but the general gist of it sounds fairly like where my mind is on the subject.
Pink Floyd are teh crap... most of that era's music is teh crap... :P
-Eh, I disagree. I also feel much more coherent now. ;)
Seriously though, I don't know if I'd go as far as Msatran did, but the general gist of it sounds fairly like where my mind is on the subject.
-I agree with the part where there's no one to say "Stop!".
There is a reason we are getting new editions every few years now, and it's not because RPG development is the new computer tech industry when it comes to new development rates.
-Well, everyone once and a while, we do need something new. I, for one, am happy that we're not still playing int he 2e rules. I wouldn't have liked that, and might not have gotten into D&D.
Pink Floyd are teh crap... most of that era's music is teh crap... :P
And to think...
I used to like you...
:P ;)
I still listen to OPERA, for god's sake. That doesn't mean I'm automatically not enamored of newer sounds like Evanescence, The Dandy Warhols, and Bowling For Soup.
At this point, the only thing that matters to corporations is this: It doesn't matter what it is, as long as it's new!
At this point, the only thing that matters to corporations is this: It doesn't matter what it is, as long as it's new!
-Well, I wouldn't go that far. If that were the case, all of the previous campaign settings would have been dropped for newer things. And, that's clearly not the case.
-Well, everyone once and a while, we do need something new. I, for one, am happy that we're not still playing int he 2e rules. I wouldn't have liked that, and might not have gotten into D&D.
Every once in a while. How long ago did d20 debut? How about the 3.5 update?
Every once in a while. How long ago did d20 debut? How about the 3.5 update?
-I'm just sayin'.
-I'm not necessarily opposed to the 4e rules, as much as I am to the changes they will be making to the setting. I think a lot of people are associating the two together. Of course, I'm not thrilled that 3e stuff will soon be obsolete, either. That's a valid complaint.
Every once in a while. How long ago did d20 debut? How about the 3.5 update?
By WotC? 2000...
but I have found a set of RPG rules where you roll a D20 to determine the results of everything in the game dating from 1981. ;)
And on a side note, Pink Floyd is still a good band. People don't understand that it's okay to like old things.
Just listen to these lyrics, I think they had WotC in mind -
"Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
Where have you been? It's alright we know where you've been.
You've been in the pipeline, filling in time,
provided with toys and Scouting for Boys.
You bought
And you didn't like school, and you know you're nobody's fool,
So welcome to the machine.
Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
What did you dream? It's alright we told you what to dream."
They were just ahead of their time.... ;)
Italic text changed by me.
-I'm just sayin'.
-I'm not necessarily opposed to the 4e rules, as much as I am to the changes they will be making to the setting. I think a lot of people are associating the two together. Of course, I'm not thrilled that 3e stuff will soon be obsolete, either. That's a valid complaint.
I'm actually curious and a little excited about seeing the new 4ed rules. That being said, this has definitely reached the level of updating to update. A lot of the reason they were able to do this, is the nice little feat of releasing one to three books a month, and most of them having new rules options in them. If they had stuck to more flavor, they would have been able to stretch the edition out a lot longer, possibly indefinitely. Instead, it seemed like they pushed to make it just as convoluted and unbalanced at 3rd edition became.
"You should update to 4.5 next year, because it is totally sweet and we can all look back and see that 4ed was teh suck."
I would just like to say, that I guess my largest complaint is I look forward to 2011 and hear them saying,
"You should update to 4.5 next year, because it is totally sweet and we can all look back and see that 4ed was teh suck."
You mean when they turn the clock back on FR, because no-one is buying the 'new' setting? ;)
I guess then it really will be "new Coke".
If they had stuck to more flavor, they would have been able to stretch the edition out a lot longer, possibly indefinitely.
-Agreed.
You mean when they turn the clock back on FR, because no-one is buying the 'new' setting? ;)
I guess then it really will be "new Coke".
I don't think they could turn the clock back if they wanted to turn it back. I think they would just stop making FR gaming products.
I find it hard for me to believe that 4e Realms won't flop. I know it is subjective and that the people on these boards and candle keep don't represent all FR fans. It just looks like reactions to the lore changes are overwhelmingly negative.
I know that they are losing a lot of money just from myself and people I know. I normally buy a case of the new miniature set for my brother at x-mas, but the new minis are 4e. I won't buy anything from 4e because I hate the lore changes. No core books, no Realms books, no miniatures, and no novels.
There's always crack... :P
That is so wrong on so many levels!:D
My but we're feeling belligerent, aren't we? That it was a general statement should be taken as I think every company out there is guilty of it to some extent, at one point or another. Not just WotC, not just the ones I'm personally acquainted with, but everyone... it would be next to impossible for it not to be.
So why did my assumption that your comment about market research (in general) applied to WotC bother you?
Not really addressed at me, but it was in the quote thing, so I'll take a stab at it... Though I'm a little curious myself, that if you seem to find so many problems with the Realms, why are you bothering with this?
I LIKE what I listed. FR is pretty much as over the top as Eberron - it's a feature, not a bug. Just replying to Sir_Shadow who claimed that Eberron was somehow ridiculously so and that FR wasn't.
Also, many of the things Mula listed were unique (or at least special) events, or happened a long time ago in Faerun's past. Elves aren't casting "super spells" much anymore, are they? The Simbul is among the most powerful spellcasters in the setting, and very few can match her. Halruaa was designed to be a secluded, out of the way nation (and therefore, exotic). And so on.
Creatures from the unknown attack the world, blanketing a magical elven city in shadows. Magical flying mountain cities. Elves from another dimension emerge, their magical home being destroyed by unknown magical monsters. Dragons all over the world, good and evil, attack everything in their paths. Magical flying mountain cities.
Who ISN'T casting super spells somewhere in Faerûn at any given time? Faerûn is over the top, but you can very easily downplay these elements in your game (like in Eberron). However, claiming that Faerûn is all classically subdued fantasy is just bull****.
So why did my assumption that your comment about market research (in general) applied to WotC bother you?
I thought it was very belligerent in its wording... well, perhaps that's a bit of strong way of putting it. Combatative is probably more appropriate. It sounded as if you were saying I was directing some snide underhanded comment at WotC in particular, rather than corporations in general. The snide underhanded part was directed at a much broader target than just WotC. :P
I LIKE what I listed. FR is pretty much as over the top as Eberron - it's a feature, not a bug. Just replying to Sir_Shadow who claimed that Eberron was somehow ridiculously so and that FR wasn't.
FR has context generally, Eberron doesn't... that's the only real difference I see, but its a very significant one.
I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to do with all the extra money... kinda making my head spin a little really. Both of my favorite systems are pretty much dead for me, so I can go looking for something new to blow my resources on. :D
I'll be spending my money on Chanel.
I still shudder at the 80s -- the music, hairstyle, fashion...
I don't need 80s hairstyle and fashion (much of it is horrific--leggings...*shudder!*), but I love 80s music.:D
However, claiming that Faerûn is all classically subdued fantasy is just bull****.
Ah, but I never claimed that.:P
Hmmm... could use some more Egoiste actually... presuming they still make it.
They do! They've a version called Platinum Egoiste, too.
Good to know... my wife adores the smell of that. Know what to get her for Christmas then... well, not that she'd be wearing it, but still... :D
As I woman, I don't think there's anything wrong with wearing "men's" cologne if you like it.;)
I don't need 80s hairstyle and fashion (much of it is horrific--leggings...*shudder!*), but I love 80s music.:D
Yeah, DIO and Scorpions *ROCK* even more than 4E! (Sorry, I just *had* to say that ;))
As I woman, I don't think there's anything wrong with wearing "men's" cologne if you like it.;)
Plus there are many "unisex" perfumes these days (e.g. 'CK One'). I prefer 'Dune' or 'Fahrenheit', personally
Creatures from the unknown attack the world, blanketing a magical elven city in shadows.
Have no idea what this is referring to. But then again I don't read the novels much anymore. Closest thing I can think of is the Phaerim or maulgrym (one of those two)
Magical flying mountain cities.
Ancient history that apprently isnt so ancient anymore. At least I assume you're referring to the Netherese and the return of Shade. *shrugs* The Netherese are gone and I'd mention the whole apparent plane of shadow=cool lets toss it in thing but I wont.
Elves from another dimension emerge, their magical home being destroyed by unknown magical monsters.
Wow that is....um....Well that came from Elaine Cunningham for her novels I expect anyways. In any case that was so far before the modern Realms even Elves see it as ancient history. How does that fit into anything?
Dragons all over the world, good and evil, attack everything in their paths.
Krynn......oh wait ok I know what you're talking about.
Magical flying mountain cities.
Um..you said this twice.
Who ISN'T casting super spells somewhere in Faerûn at any given time? Faerûn is over the top, but you can very easily downplay these elements in your game (like in Eberron). However, claiming that Faerûn is all classically subdued fantasy is just bull****.
See I think the problem is you're confusing the works of authors who don't really care about the Realms as anything more than a setting for their characters (Salvatore) so they tend to do what they want regardless of how it fits in with the world as a whole, and the general setting itself.
Most everything you mentioned was something a novel author tacked on. Don't get me wrong, some of the books are good. I liked Evermeet and Cormyr and the Finders Stone Trilogy...other than that the books generally veer from the "characters must stop this guy in this local area" in favor of "my super-duper hero must save the whole wide world from destruction". I hate Epic crap that changes the whole world every 3 months because some author was to lazy to create his own world to put them in.
With Ebberon, and like I said I've never played the damn thing and probably never will, because I don't like mixing genres. I don't like Race A being in the rennaisance and Race B being Pirates of the Carribean and Race C being cavemen riding dinosaurs. I don't like "Magic is technology" as it states in the Ebberon book, if I wanted that I'd make a Xanth Campaign. I don't like trains, flying ships, chocobo (sorry wrong game but ..if you stretch it, the halfing dinosaur thing...naah forget it.) I don't like Robots (sorry a sentient golem built in a factory is a robot to me) I don't like Magic Item factories and a shop where you can browse the shelves for a +10 generic sword (ick)
With Forgotten Realms, every bad idea that became canon rests on the shoulders of people who write novels. With Ebberon its already all there. Everything. Everything packed and crammed into there with just a flimsy paperthin rationale behind why its there other than the catch-all "If its in D&D its in Ebberon"
If you like Ebberon I really don't care, and am really confused that my dislike of the silly stuff I see in Ebberon bothers you. Trying to say the FR is the same thing and then pointing to the novels as your rationale isnt gonna change my mind. The only good thing they got going is they don't have to put up with Salvatore ruining their world because they don't have to worry about bad novels being canon.
Which is another thing, how can a world with so much thrown into it like Ebberon at the same time seem so generic. Is there any forward movement at all or is it just static?
I don't need 80s hairstyle and fashion (much of it is horrific--leggings...*shudder!*), but I love 80s music.:D
Johnny Tutone and Men Without Hats, FTW!
Wow that is....um....Well that came from Elaine Cunningham for her novels I expect anyways. In any case that was so far before the modern Realms even Elves see it as ancient history. How does that fit into anything?
It's the star elves. Yuirwood elves? Unapproachable east.
See I think the problem is you're confusing the works of authors who don't really care about the Realms as anything more than a setting for their characters (Salvatore) so they tend to do what they want regardless of how it fits in with the world as a whole, and the general setting itself.
Faerûn as a RPG setting = novels set in the Realms. They're intertwined, heavily. The designers of the RPG aspect work together with the authors of the novels, and often they are the same person. Greenwood comes to mind...
I don't like Race A being in the rennaisance and Race B being Pirates of the Carribean and Race C being cavemen riding dinosaurs.
Lantan, Sea of Fallen Stars, orcs (sans dinosaurs)?
I don't like trains, flying ships, chocobo (sorry wrong game but ..if you stretch it, the halfing dinosaur thing...naah forget it.) I don't like Robots (sorry a sentient golem built in a factory is a robot to me) I don't like Magic Item factories and a shop where you can browse the shelves for a +10 generic sword (ick)
No trains, but Halruaan sky ships, drow lizard mounts, blood forged (and half-golems), Red Wizard enclaves.
Faerûn as a RPG setting = novels set in the Realms. They're intertwined, heavily. The designers of the RPG aspect work together with the authors of the novels, and often they are the same person. Greenwood comes to mind...
-As are Steve Schend (though, he was a 2e designer, and not a 3e/4e designer), Bruce Cordell, and Rich Baker.
Faerûn as a RPG setting = novels set in the Realms. They're intertwined, heavily. The designers of the RPG aspect work together with the authors of the novels, and often they are the same person. Greenwood comes to mind...
And when that author wants to do something for his novel the game suffers. That is the problem...is that the guy who should just be playing traffic cop is writing novels and can't self-edit or edit at all.
It's the star elves. Yuirwood elves? Unapproachable east.
Theres ANOTHER race of elves? Seesh I thought Star Elves were like the Elven Imperial Navy or something.
Faerûn as a RPG setting = novels set in the Realms. They're intertwined, heavily. The designers of the RPG aspect work together with the authors of the novels, and often they are the same person. Greenwood comes to mind...
Yes and thats where all the silly stuff comes from. They write a book and then run out and write up game content and stuff it in. The Novel writers should not be allowed near game design and vice versa.
But its still different. The weird stuff is in Faerun because of the Novels, with Ebberon the weird stuff is already there.
Lantan, Sea of Fallen Stars, orcs (sans dinosaurs)?
No trains, but Halruaan sky ships, drow lizard mounts, blood forged (and half-golems), Red Wizard enclaves.
Don't know about Lantan, I've largely ignored it due to GOnd and his use as reason why theres tech in the game.
And the Red Wizard enclave, while selling magic items arent foundries and industrial factories where Artificers churn out mass production magic items for street sale. That and there is an actual story reason behind them being there that isnt just to have magic item shops where players can pick up a new set of +50 armor with some spare change just to fit the unholy wealth by level idiocy.
Besides that, the Red Wizards are in select locations (mostly becauase nobody trusts them enough to give them an extraterritorial peice of land to use.)
I'll happily admit alot of powergamy munchkinny and outright silly stuff has crept up in the Realms but its not quite the same. Forgotten Realms didnt start out with all that stuff. Ebberon did. Ebberon has the advantage of having been created specifically for 3E so it doesnt have to have all the new ...'stuff' squished into it.
I just don't like Ebberon, I been reading through the books and it just seems very childish to me. I mean really drow that paint skulls on their faces. And like I said, thats my opinion of it and trying to say that Forgotten Realms is the exact same isnt going to change it.
With Ebberon, and like I said I've never played the damn thing and probably never will, because I don't like mixing genres. I don't like Race A being in the rennaisance and Race B being Pirates of the Carribean and Race C being cavemen riding dinosaurs. I don't like "Magic is technology" as it states in the Ebberon book, if I wanted that I'd make a Xanth Campaign. I don't like trains, flying ships, chocobo (sorry wrong game but ..if you stretch it, the halfing dinosaur thing...naah forget it.) I don't like Robots (sorry a sentient golem built in a factory is a robot to me) I don't like Magic Item factories and a shop where you can browse the shelves for a +10 generic sword (ick)
I am now putting on my Eberron fan hat to correct some misinfomation....
1)The whole Race A,B, and C thing...I don't get it...the pirates of the Carribean existed right alongside our rennaisance period as well as primitive culture in our world( heck there even still pirates and primitive cultures today...). Also the halfling are not cavemen...think of them more like the Russians Corrsacks or the Mongols...they just use dinosaurs instead of horses...but their society is just as advance. And if dinosaurs existed today are you going tell me that cultures back then wouldn't have tried to domestic them?
2) Magic is technology....I see no problems with this...though I think you are thinking magic is a little widespread then it is.
3) Warforged (or any magic items) are not made in factories. The Warforged are made by using what amounts to a artifacts that House Cannith found in Xen'Drik. They prety much don't even totaly understand how it works. Then they had to train the Wraforged. What they are...is a mystery left up to the DM.
4) A +10 magic sword in a shop...yeah right. This is totaly wrong. Much less being made in factories that don't exist.
If you like Ebberon I really don't care, and am really confused that my dislike of the silly stuff I see in Ebberon bothers you. Trying to say the FR is the same thing and then pointing to the novels as your rationale isnt gonna change my mind. The only good thing they got going is they don't have to put up with Salvatore ruining their world because they don't have to worry about bad novels being canon.
And I really don't care that you don't like Eberron, I do care that you are sprouting falsehoods about it though. It is like somebody saying that the FR that everytime a PC fights a orc that the Choosen shows up and kills the orc and berates the PC....that statement is about as true about the Realms as your statements are true about Eberron.
Everything packed and crammed into there with just a flimsy paperthin rationale behind why its there other than the catch-all "If its in D&D its in Ebberon"
Actualy they try to give reason for things to be in Eberron...sometimes they fail...somnetimes it works really well. But like the Realms yes you can put anything into Eberron that you want to...they just are giving some ideas to incorporate those options. And the keyword there is "Options".
I think you are right but I don't think you have to throw Eberron under the bus to make your point.
And when that author wants to do something for his novel the game suffers. That is the problem...is that the guy who should just be playing traffic cop is writing novels and can't self-edit or edit at all.
One of the reasons I stopped reading the books was they were starting to seem like just reading someones campaign journal. Like we were just getting to read about what the characters in their game do in FR and thats not something I want to read.
I am now putting on my Eberron fan hat to correct some misinfomation....
1)The whole Race A,B, and C thing...I don't get it...the pirates of the Carribean existed right alongside our rennaisance period as well as primitive culture in our world( heck there even still pirates and primitive cultures today...). Also the halfling are not cavemen...think of them more like the Russians Corrsacks or the Mongols...they just use dinosaurs instead of horses...but their society is just as advance. And if dinosaurs existed today are you going tell me that cultures back then wouldn't have tried to domestic them?
Actually I'm trying to figure out how many halfings got eaten over the years. Seriously, something that is jsut the right size to fit in your mouth shouldnt be trying to ride you (if your a dinosaur) Even if they are nomadic and cossacky I just don't see the logic behind an ancestral halfing running from his life while a velociraptor tried to eat him and thinking hmm I wonder if I could ride these. Its an original or semi original concept I'll give it that but I personally don't see it.
And I may have used bad examples in the civilization level thing, I was going by the pictures and theres to much of a mixture of clothing styles from different time periods up to what I would consider 18th(maybe 19th) century clothing right next to dark ages stuff. And unless they're completely isolated (the primatives) I don't see them existing next to a quasi industrial society.
Look at the picture on page 40. You got a warforged wearing semi-arabic looking clothing, a dwarf in dark ages armor, one elf looking like a buccanner, another like an aztec and I have no idea what the hairy elf is supposed to be. And thats supposed to be a typical adventuring party. Just really doesnt make sense to me.
2) Magic is technology....I see no problems with this...though I think you are thinking magic is a little widespread then it is.
Probably, as I've said before I'm just now reading through the books after reading various other sources online for so long. But I do recall a passage where they did say in the Ebberon Campaign setting magic is technology or something to that effect. My feelings on this are just personal preferance is all. Magic should be rare and scary not every joe farmer knowing the spell name, school and who created it type of commonality. Realms suffers from alot of this too. Specially with the rise of 'everyone has magical powers' type of thing going on in D&D in general.
3) Warforged (or any magic items) are not made in factories. The Warforged are made by using what amounts to a artifacts that House Cannith found in Xen'Drik. They prety much don't even totaly understand how it works. Then they had to train the Wraforged. What they are...is a mystery left up to the DM.
Again, personal its just a personal opinion on the warforged. Warforged Look like Robots to me. Magical robots maybe but robots none-the-less. Just how I see them.
4) A +10 magic sword in a shop...yeah right. This is totaly wrong. Much less being made in factories that don't exist.
Exageration on the +10 thing I know, I felt like exxagerating that part cause it made me snicker. And you have a character class (the Artificer) who is all about making magic items and can make items from spells he doesnt even have (as per the item creation description of that class) so that kinda leans me in the direction that there are such things. Probably a guild or something like that which owuld be the equivilent of a factory. But I'll take your word for it, would seem like a complete waste to create a class like that and not do something like that (even though the very idea makes me nauseous ) but ok.
And I really don't care that you don't like Eberron, I do care that you are sprouting falsehoods about it though. It is like somebody saying that the FR that everytime a PC fights a orc that the Choosen shows up and kills the orc and berates the PC....that statement is about as true about the Realms as your statements are true about Eberron.
And I'm sure people actually do say that about the Chosen and treat them that way wrong as it may be. And my statements are as I've said, my opinion of what I've seen. I'm not 'spouting falsehoods' as you call it I'm giving my opinion on what I've read. I may not be clear enough about it sometimes in my examples (its a failing, I know what I mean and assume everyone else does too)
But I still fail to see whats so good about Ebberon that it seems like anyone not liking it needs to be converted to the fold. Thats just creepy. Not directed at you by the way, just a general thing.
Actualy they try to give reason for things to be in Eberron...sometimes they fail...somnetimes it works really well. But like the Realms yes you can put anything into Eberron that you want to...they just are giving some ideas to incorporate those options. And the keyword there is "Options".
I like options. I like things being optional. That way when I see somethng I don't like I can say no. No you cant have that or any of the other silly stuff in the avalanche of books containing silly classes and prestige classes and races.
I think you are right but I don't think you have to throw Eberron under the bus to make your point.
Didn't think I was throwing Ebberon under the bus. Certainly wasnt my intention in any case.
Didn't think I was throwing Ebberon under the bus. Certainly wasnt my intention in any case.
You were...I figured it wasn't your intent. I am just tired of the fans of both ripping into the other setting. As I said I like both. Both are just as interesting. Your point can be made without Eberron being mentioned...
Also I think in the end 4th edition will be very bad for both settings...but that is just my opinion.
You were...I figured it wasn't your intent. I am just tired of the fans of both ripping into the other setting. As I said I like both. Both are just as interesting. Your point can be made without Eberron being mentioned...
Also I think in the end 4th edition will be very bad for both settings...but that is just my opinion.
Am pretty sure it started by my replying to something you said a few pages back with a passing comment that I was reading and wasnt impressed with it as part of a large post about all the settings and thats how all that sorta thing got started with the whole FR got the same stuff in it. *shrugs* I even mentioned I'd never played it and jsut started actually reading it and still the rush to the defense. If being unimpressed with something is cause for that sorta reaction....and I thought having Drizzt around was an issue.
And I'm sure Ebberon will eventually get torn apart when they make their new 'specially made for 4E' setting. Problem is though that like I said it was made for 3E specifically so at least mechanically all those Ebberon people got problems on the Horizon.
Would it be mean to hope they re-write the flavor enough to incorporate Ebberon drow having dual scimitars as standard issue? I mean, why should FR be the only one to suffer.
Am pretty sure it started by my replying to something you said a few pages back with a passing comment that I was reading and wasnt impressed with it as part of a large post about all the settings and thats how all that sorta thing got started with the whole FR got the same stuff in it. *shrugs* I even mentioned I'd never played it and jsut started actually reading it and still the rush to the defense. If being unimpressed with something is cause for that sorta reaction....and I thought having Drizzt around was an issue.
Actualy you brought Eberron up first as in generation gap discussion...and I still disagree...just because you don't like something doesn't mean it is for the next generation.
And actualy it is wrong Eberron and FR are very different(saying they are the same is just stupid). That is why I like them both...unfortunaly it seems that both have to become more instep with the 4th edition mechanics and they are going to become pretty much the same world.
Actualy you brought Eberron up first as in generation gap discussion...and I still disagree...just because you don't like something doesn't mean it is for the next generation.
And actualy it is wrong Eberron and FR are very different(saying they are the same is just stupid). That is why I like them both...unfortunaly it seems that both have to become more instep with the 4th edition mechanics and they are going to become pretty much the same world.
eh only reason I mentioned it there was cause its the newest and fits in at the end of the Greyhawk - Faerun - Ebberon setting timeline. Fits what I was attempting to get across.
And it could be worse. I look at it this way, as bad as I think the mechanical changes are going to be, it can't be any worse than playing D&D with cards instead of dice (Bad Dragonlance. Bad, bad, bad. Now get back under the stairs)
Although, it being WOTc...I could mention the horror that would be the melding of D&D, Mini's and Magic Cards.
Just listen to these lyrics, I think they had WotC in mind -
"Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
Where have you been? It's alright we know where you've been.
You've been in the pipeline, filling in time,
provided with toys and Scouting for Boys.
You boughta guitarsome TSR to punish your ma,
And you didn't like school, and you know you're nobody's fool,
So welcome to the machine.
Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
What did you dream? It's alright we told you what to dream."
They were just ahead of their time.... ;)
Italic text changed by me.
Not only the lyrics, but the video too. I wanted to suicide when Roger Waters came to play in Argentina last time, some friends told me that it was like seeing the whole band together.
If you don't like it, don't use it.
I DM almost exclusively using the Realms' cosmology, geography, deities, and such. There's something for everyone. (Even if the running joke is that all commoners in Faerun have at least five levels in an arcane spellcasting class. :p) I take some developments from the novels (most recently from the Lady Penitent series; I ran CotSQ recently and the Lady Penitent series begs for a sequel, so to speak) and use them, others I ignore completely (such as a certain well-known figure sacrificing himself to some stupid epic spell). The thing is, guys, they put out the material; it's up to the DM and to a lesser extent the players on whether or not it gets incorporated into YOUR version of the Realms. D&D is about storytelling and roleplaying, and they wouldn't have made it a campaign setting in a roleplaying game if they didn't expect the players to modify certain aspects of "recognized canon" to fit their respective views.
*WotC
This may have been said already, I don't know for sure- I didn't read EVERY page, I'll admit to that lack. But here it is:
If you don't like it, don't use it.
Well, that's kind of a given that's come up about... fifty times already ;)
DB
And TSR did an admirable job, from what I understand, turning what was basically millions of notes "scribbled on napkins" into a comprehensive gaming environment. The Grey Box was perfect - it told you just enough, and let your imagination fill in the rest.
Since WotC has taken it over (and to be honest, TSR toward the end), THEY have been filling in the blanks and stripping us of our ability to "imagine" anything. People come here and ask questions like -
"I was thinking of making a country by the Border Kingdoms, and the people would all be religous Zealots and only where Red shoes, what does everyone think?"
And the answer they would get to that is "The people in that region you describe are already said to be religiously tolerant (as per The Unholy sepulchre novel), and they tend to wear blue shoes (as per the Bards of the South series) - although they do not use shoelaces, as discussed in the Halfling Footwear article in Wyvern #361.
They filled in so many blanks, that even they keep stepping all over their own lore. We got 'designers' writing stories about gods that didn't even exist at the time the story was written (Black Archer)!
If the Realms are ruined, as they say, THEY are the ones who ruined it.
Maybe it is time they retire the old girl - better that then all this 'senility' that she seems to be undergoing.
But if he didn't sell it, we wouldn't all be here sharing it.
It is a pickle isn't it?
Either we whine about it's existence as-is, or we whine about it's lack of existence as-is. Either way, we *are* going to whine, so why should anyone listen?:P
If people whine about something regardless, why go through the trouble of producing something worthwhile, when...gasp...we will whine.
Don't get me wrong, I whine just as much as everyone else...I'm sure there's several of my drunken rants on these boards...but it really is just whining, which is done no matter what. Point is, it all boils down to bla bla bla blah BLAH....and hehehehehehehe:P The sad truth is, if Ed didn't sell FR, it would not be in the state it is. It's a double ouchy, if you understand me.
Well, enough wine for me. I'm sure Alko products and my medication don't mix well.
And TSR did an admirable job, from what I understand, turning what was basically millions of notes "scribbled on napkins" into a comprehensive gaming environment. The Grey Box was perfect - it told you just enough, and let your imagination fill in the rest.
Since WotC has taken it over (and to be honest, TSR toward the end), THEY have been filling in the blanks and stripping us of our ability to "imagine" anything.
-Maybe I'm in the minority, especially since I only came to enjoy the Realms a little bit before the 3.5e conversion, but I think WotC did a good job during the earlier days. I dislike how 3e revealed a lot of those "age old secrets", but 3e brought order to everything.
-Maybe I'm in the minority, especially since I only came to enjoy the Realms a little bit before the 3.5e conversion, but I think WotC did a good job during the earlier days. I dislike how 3e revealed a lot of those "age old secrets", but 3e brought order to everything.
Personaly till now there has just been minor hipcups for me like...In Races of Faerun under the North Orc section they said something to the effect that after the orcs invaded the elven kingdoms the elves started to hunt them for sport...I just took that it was written from the orc p.o.v. of justfing they hatered for the elves. But the more I read I realize that the designers consider this a fact...they have stopped doing things like this and are locking the world up...
So now we have a good race hunting the poor innocent orcs for sport...I just rewrote it to be what makes sense...the elves continue for many years to send scouts and skimishers into orc lands to keep a known enemy off balance and to see if there is another invasion in the works...
But it is getting harder with this design team to do...one of the strengths of Eberron over the Realms is that they do leave things up to the DM...the current FR teams seems to be more inclined to dictate things.
Personaly till now there has just been minor hipcups for me.
-Yeah, that's how I saw it. Mostly good, with some hiccups.
I liked it more in the 2e days, fluff wise anyway, by far... having said that, the 3.x ruleset was far and away superior to the 2e crap mechanics.
EXACTLY how I feel - I hated 2e rules (I ran it for years and still don't understand them). The fluff, though, was great, and I felt back then that I only needed to use what I liked. Now it seems more and more things are 'locked-in' by the lore. The old way of presenting it - through innacurate reporting by third parties, was by far and away the BEST presentation of any setting ever done. Technically, everything became optional for DM by using that format.
It was brilliant... and they killed it.
(Spoiler warning)
Show
Apparently, assuming the PCs are completely successful (to the extent that is possible) they will have stopped the plot by the Sharrans and the Shadovar to blanket the land in Dead Magic areas, kill off Mystra, and so on. This, quite frankly, left me stunned, and were I a player going through this campaign, would leave me utterly p***ed off...
"Congratulations, Frodo - you have succeeded on a mighty quest to defeat the Dark Lord Sauron, and despite the loss of some of your companions, numerous hardships, and battles beyond counting, the One Ring is destroyed. You go on to your well-deserved rewards. Ten years later, Sauron, undeterred, forges another One Ring and conquers all of Middle Earth anyway, and there's nothing you can do about it, because it's what the designers feel is best for the setting."
I can certainly understand the notion of allowing players to try and stop a bad event that has to happen anyway (you make the planned result be the lesser of two evils, and they stop the 'worse' result that the bad guy was really trying for, leaving them with lesser consequences that you wanted all along)...
But this is just... Bleh.
The adventure itself looks great - and I may well make good use of both it, and source material presented therein, so I'm not suggesting anyone not buy it. But this just is not something I could present to a gaming group, as-is, not with the timeline as it is.
"Congratulations, Frodo - you have succeeded on a mighty quest to defeat the Dark Lord Sauron, and despite the loss of some of your companions, numerous hardships, and battles beyond counting, the One Ring is destroyed. You go on to your well-deserved rewards. Ten years later, Sauron, undeterred, forges another One Ring and conquers all of Middle Earth anyway, and there's nothing you can do about it, because it's what the designers feel is best for the setting."
I can certainly understand the notion of allowing players to try and stop a bad event that has to happen anyway (you make the planned result be the lesser of two evils, and they stop the 'worse' result that the bad guy was really trying for, leaving them with lesser consequences that you wanted all along)...
But this is just... Bleh.
The adventure itself looks great - and I may well make good use of both it, and source material presented therein, so I'm not suggesting anyone not buy it. But this just is not something I could present to a gaming group, as-is, not with the timeline as it is.
And do not forget about the Sharn Wall going down at the end of the adventure.
What's that?:DEberron isn't changing a damn thing. Their fans whined and complained over a minor TWO YEAR gap in their world...and WotC actually listened to them! And they also said that Eberron won't go through any major events, they'll just explain within the text if something contradicts with 4E Rules....
Doesn't any of this sound really, really unfair to you guys? There're a ton more Realms fans angry with these changes but WotC won't hear a word of it. Yet this little baby Eberron of theirs gets spoiled like a whiny brat!
What gives?
Maybe that will help us out guys???
What's got me even more angry now, not just recently new things heard about 4E FR, but the fact that this news became recent:
Eberron isn't changing a damn thing. Their fans whined and complained over a minor TWO YEAR gap in their world...and WotC actually listened to them! And they also said that Eberron won't go through any major events, they'll just explain within the text if something contradicts with 4E Rules....
Doesn't any of this sound really, really unfair to you guys? There're a ton more Realms fans angry with these changes but WotC won't hear a word of it. Yet this little baby Eberron of theirs gets spoiled like a whiny brat!
What gives?
Another good reason to never buy anything from 4e. No novels, no FR books, no core books, and no miniatures. I guess making your fan base angry at you and bitter doesn't help you move products.
WOWSERS!!! I only now realize what shrewd businessmen the WOTC boys are!!!!:rolleye2:
What's got me even more angry now, not just recently new things heard about 4E FR, but the fact that this news became recent:
Eberron isn't changing a damn thing. Their fans whined and complained over a minor TWO YEAR gap in their world...and WotC actually listened to them! And they also said that Eberron won't go through any major events, they'll just explain within the text if something contradicts with 4E Rules....
Doesn't any of this sound really, really unfair to you guys? There're a ton more Realms fans angry with these changes but WotC won't hear a word of it. Yet this little baby Eberron of theirs gets spoiled like a whiny brat!
What gives?
No only thing Eberron got was no time jump...they are still going to hammer the square changes into the round holes of Eberron as well....trust me 4th edition is going to make both setting suck equaly.
I would say from a *story* perspective, the new changes are interesting. There are a lot of aspects I don't like, but depending on how it is handled it could be ok. If it is, as many have feared, simply watering down the realms to make it more easily interchangeable with other settings, then this is the worst possible thing wotc could do.
If the realms becomes unrecognizable with 4e, then I think I will just start setting my campaigns historically. I think it may be rather enjoyable to begin a campaign shortly before the Time of Troubles and continue from there. The biggest worry I have is that as 4e progresses they will begin rewriting history... the things we know and love will not only be destroyed, but will cease to have ever existed. I believe I could work in a post-apocalyptic Realms, but not in one where the history itself is changed... unfortunately what I've read regarding the Orcs does not seem to bode well for this.
I wouldn't despair completely though. I believe the Realms community is much stronger than any changes that can be forced on us. If we don't like what happens with our world, then we change it. It shouldn't be too hard to create a community driven spin-off of the Forgotten Realms. Sure, we would no longer have source books provided by WotC to hand-hold us through, but there is already such a wealth of information provided to us that additional material is not really *necessary*
Anyway, I don't think I've really added anything new to the discussion here, but as a lover of the Realms I couldn't just stay quiet.
Razz I would take Forgotten Realms, yes even a greatly changed Forgotten Realms, over Eberron any day.
You have great Faith, Brian, I'll give you that. ;)
Maybe that will help us out guys???
Nothing will help - the Eberron players are younger so they don't want to offend people who have another good 30-40 years of buying power.
WotC already has US dead and buried.
I was going to make some snied coments about Eberron and the NEW FR, but this I'm starting to sound like a broken record, and that horse was beat to death weeks ago.
I just hope they don't F-it up completely.
No only thing Eberron got was no time jump...they are still going to hammer the square changes into the round holes of Eberron as well....trust me 4th edition is going to make both setting suck equaly.
Just call it "The Eberron Realms", or is it "The Forgotten Eberron":P
Just call it "The Eberron Realms", or is it "The Forgotten Eberron":P
"The Eberron Realms" MUST BE STOPPED!!!!!!
"The Forgotten Eberron" MUST BE STOPPED!!!!!!
It's the Dark, Shadowy Forgotten Birthmists of Eberron's Dragon Council of Ironcraft.
Some folks call it a shmorgashborg, I call it leftovers....
No...
It's the Dark, Shadowy Forgotten Birthmists of Eberron's Dragon Council of Ironcraft.
Some folks call it a shmorgashborg, I call it leftovers....
-Spelljammer gets no respect. It should be the Dark, Shadowy Forgotten Birthmists of Eberron's Dragon Council of Ironcrafted Space Hamsters. Now, THATS a setting.
And I hate the new look of the troll.
And I hate the new look of the troll.
Did you see the dryad?
Did you see the dryad?
Oh great, I had just killed off the last remaining braincell that remembered that abomination and you had to go and remind me.
Whats wrong with wooden elven damsels? Argh! I hope your so wrong.Was something like that.
Look forward to Rabid slavering and drooling tusked Unicorns being ridden by bloodthirsty vampiric nymph Blackguards followed by a horde of vorpal bunnies.
Did you see the dryad?
I buy my brother a case of miniatures every x-mas. As soon as I noticed the Dryad in the new set I decided that I would get him something else. I wonder if the Metallic Dragons are evil in 4e. Why have dragons that you can't raid? Gold dragons got phat lootz.
I'd be a poor friend if I didn't warn you.
OK, where can *I* see a picture of this new dryad? Anyone got a link?
EDIT: All right, I saw the new dryad. I...miss the old one.
Not only in looks, but in concept.I buy my brother a case of miniatures every x-mas. As soon as I noticed the Dryad in the new set I decided that I would get him something else. I wonder if the Metallic Dragons are evil in 4e. Why have dragons that you can't raid? Gold dragons got phat lootz.
From what I can recall, from the same article on the EN site as I recall, yes all dragons are going to be somewhat evilish. I may be wrong about this but that is something I recall reading from the EN preview if I am in fact remembering it correctly.
You can see the mini of the new Dryad in her 'natural form' here.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mi/20071102a
From what I can recall, from the same article on the EN site as I recall, yes all dragons are going to be somewhat evilish. I may be wrong about this but that is something I recall reading from the EN preview if I am in fact remembering it correctly.
Got a link to that?
You can see the mini of the new Dryad in her 'natural form' here.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mi/20071102a
Thanks--as I said above, I don't like it.;)
This is the quote about all dragons being evil I was talking about.
they mention that the Capricious Copper Dragon was made Chaotic Neutral in the miniatures game "partly to illustrate the 4th edition concept that not all metallic dragons uphold what is right and good." What's not clear is how far this concept will be implemented in the game.
Did you see the dryad?
Yeah, it looked EXACTLY like the ones from Warhammer.
So now it's the -
Dark Red, Shadowy, Forgotten Birthmists of Eberron's Dragon Council of Ironcrafted Warjammers in Knownscape! ;)
(I almost forgot about Planescape and Mystara's setting, the Known World).
That just says all dragons have more variable alignment than in previous editions, sort of like what Eberron is operating under, or rather what it emphasizes.
True, but then again that goes back into changing of Flavor in favor of new mechanics again. Chromatic dragons are evil because they are spawned by Tiamat and Metallic are good because of Bahamut the Platinum dragon.
Granted I've always thought that a dragon's view of good would be quite a bit different from any other race's idea of good just due to their entirely alien and quasi immortal nature.
The problem I personally have with the whole 'well metallic dragons can be evil to' thing is its just feeding into the same trite and now very cliche "Chaotic good member of an evil race rebelling against his/her people"
Just seems to me to be another arbitrary change to something for the sake of being able to justify PC's raiding a metallic dragons lair for its hoarde.
Eddited to add: Theres nothing saying that a Lawful Good Gold Dragon wouldn't kill you on sight anyways. Its a dragon after all and to all dragons, you're pretty much an insect. I see Dragon Alignments being more in step with being realted to other Dragons only. I mean, even Gold Dragons are written as being greedy.
So now it's the -
Dark Red, Shadowy, Forgotten Birthmists of Eberron's Dragon Council of Ironcrafted Warjammers in Knownscape!.
Wouldnt it be
Dark Red Shadowy, Forgotten Birthmists of Eberron's Dragon Council of Ironcrafted Warjammers in Knownscapes Points of Light in the Darkness
From what I can recall, from the same article on the EN site as I recall, yes all dragons are going to be somewhat evilish. I may be wrong about this but that is something I recall reading from the EN preview if I am in fact remembering it correctly.
You can see the mini of the new Dryad in her 'natural form' here.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mi/20071102a
Lets go raid the lair of that gold dragon in the mountains.
The Realms have always been that way - this is more along the lines of the canon rules becoming more like the Realms, then the other way around.
The Realms have always been a bit more ambiguous where alignments vs races were concerned - Drow in Greyhawk are ALWAYS evil (at least, they used to be), but FR had Drizzt (and plenty more since him). We have the 'goodly' servants of Helm attacking and subjugating a primitive people (Maztica) - in the Realms, all things were ALWAYS possible - thats what made it so special.
Yeah, it looked EXACTLY like the ones from Warhammer.
So now it's the -
Dark Red, Shadowy, Forgotten Birthmists of Eberron's Dragon Council of Ironcrafted Warjammers in Knownscape! ;)
(I almost forgot about Planescape and Mystara's setting, the Known World).
Is Hollow World in there anywhere? :P
Thats actually something I can get onboard with - I've always hated the way Alignments were handled in D&D - I think everyone has it within them to be wonderfully 'good' or diabolically 'evil' - certain color dragons may be more of one type then another, but there is nothing wrong with finding good Chromatics or evil Metallics - I can find you examples of BOTH in canon. ;)
The Realms have always been that way - this is more along the lines of the canon rules becoming more like the Realms, then the other way around.
The Realms have always been a bit more ambiguous where alignments vs races were concerned - Drow in Greyhawk are ALWAYS evil (at least, they used to be), but FR had Drizzt (and plenty more since him). We have the 'goodly' servants of Helm attacking and subjugating a primitive people (Maztica) - in the Realms, all things were ALWAYS possible - thats what made it so special.
I'm not against ambiguous alignments. I just see this as yet another sign that WotC is throwing all the role-playing in D&D out in favor of raid-playing. Get ready for the designers to start talking about how the new setting provides lots of opportunities for "phat lootz and ownage."
Thats actually something I can get onboard with - I've always hated the way Alignments were handled in D&D - I think everyone has it within them to be wonderfully 'good' or diabolically 'evil' - certain color dragons may be more of one type then another, but there is nothing wrong with finding good Chromatics or evil Metallics - I can find you examples of BOTH in canon. ;)
The Realms have always been that way - this is more along the lines of the canon rules becoming more like the Realms, then the other way around.
The Realms have always been a bit more ambiguous where alignments vs races were concerned - Drow in Greyhawk are ALWAYS evil (at least, they used to be), but FR had Drizzt (and plenty more since him). We have the 'goodly' servants of Helm attacking and subjugating a primitive people (Maztica) - in the Realms, all things were ALWAYS possible - thats what made it so special.
Well like I said, I consider Draconic alignments to be different from normal alignments of the same variety. Its more like, A Gold Dragon is lawful good compared to a black dragon. Dragons in my mind should be different and alienlike.
Which by the way I hate the fact that they've bragged that "this dragon lasted 7 whole rounds in combat". Dragons are or have become to commonplace and relegated to just another entry in the monster manual. They're now just a generic monster when they should be like Smaug (well except for the killed by a single arrow thing.) Dragons should be special and Epic not just level 10 and you can kill one in 5 rounds. If you go after a dragon, no matter the level you've got a very good chance of not coming out alive and the dragon just giving an annoyed huff and going back to what it was doing.
Changing the alignments in Dragons like what they've shown so far, just seems like changing canon to justify hack and slash. I mean there is a reason why Chromatics and Metallics were of differing alignments.
The way it seems to be going (and yes this is stretching it a bit) is like saying oh its entirely possible for a demon or a Devil to be Lawful Good. Possible but not probable nor logical.
I buy my brother a case of miniatures every x-mas. As soon as I noticed the Dryad in the new set I decided that I would get him something else. I wonder if the Metallic Dragons are evil in 4e. Why have dragons that you can't raid? Gold dragons got phat lootz.
The new dryad look is its "combat" look. The dryad still retains its classic beautiful humanoid appearance, but when it gets angry its outer form changes to mirror its inner.
Dragons in FR have always been less constrained by their hereditary alignments. Check Dragons of Faerûn for examples. And what's wrong with making the MM more useful? After all, a big part of of D&D is phat lootz - apparently, for many players it's the reason they play D&D.
the new setting provides lots of opportunities for "phat lootz and ownage."
That would be pwnage. :P
The new dryad look is its "combat" look. The dryad still retains its classic beautiful humanoid appearance, but when it gets angry its outer form changes to mirror its inner.
Like I said...
EXACTLY like the Warhammer version.
The new dryad look is its "combat" look. The dryad still retains its classic beautiful humanoid appearance, but when it gets angry its outer form changes to mirror its inner.That would be ok if it was more scary and less hideous. Kinda like a Night hag who puts an illusion on herself to make her look like a nymph. Its not scary its ugly. That dryad is ugly. Mailee looks at that Dryad and thinks "wow and I thought I had it bad"
And theres nothing wrong with making the Monster Manual more useful, but you don't have to turn the Centaur into a psychotic cannibal to do it. I mean seriously, all they seem to be interested in is combat. Killing the monsters in the monster manual. If all they are interested in is making a book of things to kill and they look at a nymph and think the DM's lack the imagination to make an encounter with them without turning them into a spawn of hell, heres a thought, don't put them in the book. I mean its not like there is all that many "good" creatures in the Monster Manuals anyways.
The new dryad look is its "combat" look. The dryad still retains its classic beautiful humanoid appearance, but when it gets angry its outer form changes to mirror its inner.
Dragons in FR have always been less constrained by their hereditary alignments. Check Dragons of Faerûn for examples. And what's wrong with making the MM more useful? After all, a big part of of D&D is phat lootz - apparently, for many players it's the reason they play D&D.
How is the MM not useful enough in 3.5e? Why does a dryad need a combat look? It doesn't storm castles and hunt dragons (yet
). Yes, many people play D&D for the sole purpose of grabbin phat lootz. Many other people like to role-play. All the non-combat monsters that could be encountered by a group seem to be getting turned into combat encounters. I think this is a bad thing because the vast majority of creatures in the MM are already combat encounters.
And theres nothing wrong with making the Monster Manual more useful, but you don't have to turn the Centaur into a psychotic cannibal to do it. I mean seriously, all they seem to be interested in is combat. Killing the monsters in the monster manual. If all they are interested in is making a book of things to kill and they look at a nymph and think the DM's lack the imagination to make an encounter with them without turning them into a spawn of hell, heres a thought, don't put them in the book. I mean its not like there is all that many "good" creatures in the Monster Manuals anyways.
From "capricious" we go to "psychotic cannibal"? Spawn of hell? Hyperbole FTW.
How is the MM not useful enough in 3.5e? Why does a dryad need a combat look? It doesn't storm castles and hunt dragons (yet
Yes, many people play D&D for the sole purpose of grabbin phat lootz. Many other people like to role-play. All the non-combat monsters that could be encountered by a group seem to be getting turned into combat encounters. I think this is a bad thing because the vast majority of creatures in the MM are already combat encounters.
Are you aware that SOCIAL encounters do not require a creature's stats? Social instead of roleplaying because you can roleplay while fighting, you know. Done that a lot - all the time in pbp, actually. Also, while social encounters are possible even with nothing but a simple description of the creature's appearance, nature, and motives, a combat encounter requires crunchy numbers and suitable abilities.
-Spelljammer gets no respect. It should be the Dark, Shadowy Forgotten Birthmists of Eberron's Dragon Council of Ironcrafted Space Hamsters. Now, THATS a setting.
I wanna play! Can I be a Ninja Pirate Hamster?;) :P :D
From "capricious" we go to "psychotic cannibal"? Spawn of hell? Hyperbole FTW.
Are you aware that SOCIAL encounters do not require a creature's stats? Social instead of roleplaying because you can roleplay while fighting, you know. Done that a lot - all the time in pbp, actually. Also, while social encounters are possible even with nothing but a simple description of the creature's appearance, nature, and motives, a combat encounter requires crunchy numbers and suitable abilities.
Are you aware that COMBAT encounters do not require a creture to be evil?
Combat instead of roleplaying because it's sorta silly to talk while fighting, you know. really try do that in real life. Also while combat encounters are posible even with nothing but a simple description of the creature appearance, nature and motives, a Role-playing encounters requires Players and DM with brains.:D
Not that it matters because it is known that WOtC is breaking down the game "Dora the explorer style" for the new costumers they HOPE to have.
From "capricious" we go to "psychotic cannibal"? Spawn of hell? Hyperbole FTW.
Are you aware that SOCIAL encounters do not require a creature's stats? Social instead of roleplaying because you can roleplay while fighting, you know. Done that a lot - all the time in pbp, actually. Also, while social encounters are possible even with nothing but a simple description of the creature's appearance, nature, and motives, a combat encounter requires crunchy numbers and suitable abilities.
Thanks for enlightening me.
The question remains. Why does a dryad need a COMBAT form? The only purpose for this is so 15 year olds can have their paladin beat on something. That is what 4e is All about. The changes are geared to support combat. Forgotten Realms is a complicated setting with a lot of power groups and intrigue. The large number of gods means there must be a large number of churches. All the churches compete for followers which complicates the setting even more. All of this is great for ROLE-PLAYING, but it sucks if your only interest is to kill something and take its stuff.
Fourth addition is meant to appeal to hack-n-slash MMORPGers. That is why the Realms must be changed to a points of lights setting. That is why the gods must die (or turn into saints
). That is why the "safe" areas of the Realms must be made dangerous. That is why all the benevolent NPCs must be killed. Hack-n-slash players don't want to talk to NPCs. They want to kill them and take their cool stuff, and hack-n-slash players don't want any creatures in the MM that are not supposed to be combat fodder for them. That is why the old dryad is not useful. The 4e MM will be more useful because everything in it will be combat fodder for hack-n-slash players.
I don't have any problem with hack-n-slash games. I play them myself some times. I DO have a problem with WotC destroying every rule or piece of lore in D&D that is not specifically geared toward facilitating hack-n-slash games.
Fourth Edition motto: Kill something and take its stuff.:fight!:
From "capricious" we go to "psychotic cannibal"? Spawn of hell? Hyperbole FTW.
Hmm, you seem to think that mixing a conversation on Dragons with the horror that is that Dryad and seem to think they're the same thing.
There is nothing related between the conversation about the alignment of a dragon, capricious or otherwise, and the ugly as hell new dryad that changed just to justify combat with it. My example of the Pychotic cannibal centaur is just as a ridiculous (intentionally so because you seem to not be able to recognize sarcasm, either that or you ignore it and pretend its serious jsut to make a point) as that thing that they want to call a Dryad in her natural form.
Besides you apparently either missed or ignored the point of the reference in the first place which was there is nothing wrong with getting more use out of the Monster manual but that they don't need to re-imagine a creatures basis to do it. They obviously didn't need to do that to come up with 5 monster manuals for 3E did they.
But go ahead and ignore the parts of what people say and merge seperate topics and try to act like they are referring to the same thing. I think I made some comments about Eberron earlier that you can try to use to discount this whole post.
Edit to add: Besides, Fingoldfin made the point already in the post above.
Hmm, you seem to think that mixing a conversation on Dragons with the horror that is that Dryad and seem to think they're the same thing.
There is nothing related between the conversation about the alignment of a dragon, capricious or otherwise, and the ugly as hell new dryad that changed just to justify combat with it. My example of the Pychotic cannibal centaur is just as a ridiculous (intentionally so because you seem to not be able to recognize sarcasm, either that or you ignore it and pretend its serious jsut to make a point) as that thing that they want to call a Dryad in her natural form.
Besides you apparently either missed or ignored the point of the reference in the first place which was there is nothing wrong with getting more use out of the Monster manual but that they don't need to re-imagine a creatures basis to do it. They obviously didn't need to do that to come up with 5 monster manuals for 3E did they.
But go ahead and ignore the parts of what people say and merge seperate topics and try to act like they are referring to the same thing. I think I made some comments about Eberron earlier that you can try to use to discount this whole post.
I was trying to be mean but you outdid me by far.... good job:D
I had a bad childhood what can I say....oh wait no I was more the one to make sure other people ahd a bad childhood...nevermind. :D
I had a bad childhood what can I say....oh wait no I was more the one to make sure other people ahd a bad childhood...nevermind. :D
I can tell!!! but I can't go like that for a few reasons:
1) I Choke thinking in english and I end up sounding Gay or retarded
2) According to the test I'm a Half-Orc Paladin
Are you aware that SOCIAL encounters do not require a creature's stats? Social instead of roleplaying because you can roleplay while fighting, you know. Done that a lot - all the time in pbp, actually. Also, while social encounters are possible even with nothing but a simple description of the creature's appearance, nature, and motives, a combat encounter requires crunchy numbers and suitable abilities.
Actualy for Social encounters in 4th edition you are going to need the monsters stats...because 4th edition brings in SOCIAL COMBAT. Or atleast a more rule intensive social system. (IF nothing else this makes me hate 4th edition with a passion).
Sure I RP during combat too...so?
Also the reason I hate the dryad's "COMBAT FORM" is because a dryad is suppose to be a subtle encounter. She doesn't engage in melee when attacked she retreats and calls on animal allies and uses charm magics...not this silly brute force form. (Also give them class levels in druid if you need more power...).
If the dryad attacks again she does this subtly...
2. So, when 4E comes out you won't exist then?
I can tell!!! but I can't go like that for a few reasons:
1) I Choke thinking in english and I end up sounding Gay or retarded
I think your English is pretty good. You should try it sometime.
2. So, when 4E comes out you won't exist then?
Actualy he might exist it depends on if half-orc appear in a PhB or in the MM. In the PhB he is safe because we can't have party conflict and such...in the MM then he is just fodder for the PCs to take his stuff.
Yeah, it looked EXACTLY like the ones from Warhammer.
So now it's the -
Dark Red, Shadowy, Forgotten Birthmists of Eberron's Dragon Council of Ironcrafted Warjammers in Knownscape! ;)
(I almost forgot about Planescape and Mystara's setting, the Known World).
-Here you go: the ULTIMATE SHADOWY COOL setting:
"Dark Red-Grey-Black al-Planejamming Diablo-Horde Council Cometcraft Conkanhmarese Ghost Warloft from the Kara-Known Hollow Birstmists of the Eberrealms' Talalance Maztica Gama Light Chain"
(Composed of elements from every TSR/WotC setting: al-Qadim, Conan, Lankhmar, The Horde, Planescape, Spelljammer, Council of Wyrms, Jakandor, Tale of the Comet, Diablo II, Warcraft, Ghostwalk, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Taladas, Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Birthright, Kara-Tur, Maztica, Red Steel, Blackmoor, Mystara, Red Death, and Chainmail)
I think your English is pretty good. You should try it sometime.
Thanks for that. I'm in the Army so I have to use it(not complaining just saying that's making it better) But Dear Torm I get made fun of (They call me Fezz at the unit).
Are Paladins gonna be in the setting? I really avoid reading 4E stuff(I already hate it enough to read more about it)
-Here you go: the ULTIMATE SHADOWY COOL setting:
"Dark Red-Grey-Black al-Planejamming Diablo-Horde Council Cometcraft Conkanhmarese Ghost Warloft from the Kara-Known Hollow Birstmists of the Eberrealms' Talalance Maztica Chain"
(Composed of elements from every TSR/WotC setting: al-Qadim, Conan, Lankhmar, The Horde, Planescape, Spelljammer, Council of Wyrms, Jakandor, Tale of the Comet, Diablo II, Warcraft, Ghostwalk, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Taladas, Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Birthright, Kara-Tur, Maztica, Red Steel, Blackmoor, Mystara, Red Death, and Chainmail)
-Here you go: the ULTIMATE SHADOWY COOL setting:
"Dark Red-Grey-Black al-Planejamming Diablo-Horde Council Cometcraft Conkanhmarese Ghost Warloft from the Kara-Known Hollow Birstmists of the Eberrealms' Talalance Maztica Chain"
(Composed of elements from every TSR/WotC setting: al-Qadim, Conan, Lankhmar, The Horde, Planescape, Spelljammer, Council of Wyrms, Jakandor, Tale of the Comet, Diablo II, Warcraft, Ghostwalk, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Taladas, Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Birthright, Kara-Tur, Maztica, Red Steel, Blackmoor, Mystara, Red Death, and Chainmail)
Still forgot to add the points of light part.
Isn't this a creature from classic mythology?
Oh...wait...I forgot. Children today don't read, nor does Wizards have any inclination towards encouraging them to do so.
An anklyosaurus is now a "Macetail Behemoth."
Since when DID a Dryad need a combat form anyway? That isn't what my players think of when they encounter a dryad. This is raw vegan psychosis gone mad.
The problem with changing things this much is that old style players WON'T BE ABLE TO PROCESS IT!
Players: !#$%!#$ you!, Dungeon Master! That's not a Dryad.
DM: Well, according to the Monster Manual...
Players: I'm gone! You suck!
Really. I thought you told us at Gencon last year that it would be the "Same Game."
This isn't.
As Veronica Mars might say "Overblown descriptions are the new simplicity."
The Wizards booth has been packed throughout the show, but Saturday is always REALLY busy. I had a lot of people approach me with 4E questions. One of the most memorable ones was, "Will 4E have paladins that aren't lawful good?" The answer is yes. Hell, you can have evil paladins of Asmodeus in 4E. More on that later.
I don't know about you but the words Paladin, Evil and Asmodeus don't really go together unless the word smite is in there after paladin and before evil and Asmodeus. Apparently someone never looked up the word Paladin to see what it meant or they'd know that.
I mean really, I don't see one of the 12 Peers of Charlamagne (the Original paladins) worshipping Asmodeus.
I don't know about you but the words Paladin, Evil and Asmodeus don't really go together unless the word smite is in there after paladin and before evil and Asmodeus. Apparently someone never looked up the word Paladin to see what it meant or they'd know that.
-Use WotC logic. It's simple, really.
Paladins = Cool
Evil = Cool
Paladins = Evil
-Use WotC logic. It's simple, really.
Paladins = Cool
Evil = Cool
Paladins = Evil
Yeah but trying to use WotC logic is like taking a wire brush to your brain. They're both painful and really messy to try and clean up afterwards.
–noun
1. any one of the 12 legendary peers or knightly champions in attendance on Charlemagne.
2. any knightly or heroic champion.
3. any determined advocate or defender of a noble cause.
:headexplo Do "These People" Really expect us to like this 4E stuff? I'm telling you today Nov 25 2007 at 1:58 am that WOtC lost a client in me! I did it before With the "X-Men" books, I did it with "Mage Knights" and sure as hell I'll do it with this "FR". I've NEVER in my life as a gamer (D&D/videogames/sports/table) have been so upset, I know is a game but is like we say back home "Una falta de respeto" (a lack of respect) what they are doing here, I'm gonna go take a break now cuz I'm about to lose my "military bearing"....
And I dont care If I get banned from this place cuz I'm done with it anyway!!!
I say we all just consider 4E an "optional ruleset."
The WotC design team are really closet Right Winged christains and Left winged pyschologist who are doing this to finally destroy D&D to save our souls.
"Prepare for justice fiend, I am a paldin of Tyr"
"A paladin of Tyr? No kidding. I'm a paladin too"
"Huh...um yo ..um...you're evil."
"Yeah I know I'm a paladin of Asmodeus"
"What?"
"Yeah I was gonna be a Blackguard, after all my daddy was an Anti-Paladin from the old days. But I figured what the hell I'll be a paladin. All the evil gods are doing it these days."
"I see...you know what, I'm just gonna leave and go and try and come up with a new name for what I do cause frankly, You've just seriously crushed any meaning from the title."
"Um, arent you gonna smite me first?"
"Uh...no, not in the mood anymore. Maybe later after I find out why the standards of my profession have been lowered so much."
Aside from the lack of logic inherant in the term evil paladin, if they want Asmodeus to have holy warriors...fine. Asmodeus, Bane, Cthulhu can have all the evil holy warriors they want. But by definition of the word, they wont be Paladins. Slapping the name on them isnt going to change that, but it might make Paladins want to come up with a new name to describe themselves.
"Prepare for justice fiend, I am a paldin of Tyr"
"A paladin of Tyr? No kidding. I'm a paladin too"
"Huh...um yo ..um...you're evil."
"Yeah I know I'm a paladin of Asmodeus"
"What?"
"Yeah I was gonna be a Blackguard, after all my daddy was an Anti-Paladin from the old days. But I figured what the hell I'll be a paladin. All the evil gods are doing it these days."
"I see...you know what, I'm just gonna leave and go and try and come up with a new name for what I do cause frankly, You've just seriously crushed any meaning from the title."
"Um, arent you gonna smite me first?"
"Uh...no, not in the mood anymore. Maybe later after I find out why the standards of my profession have been lowered so much."
:heehee 
That has to be one of the funniest things I have read about the "COOL!!!" and "AWESOME!!!!" ideas coming from 4th
It gets better, I wrote up a whole thing on the Faerun Pantheon discussing the changes for the NWN server I play on occassionally. Wouldnt be fitting here but it was along the same vein as that.
Those people in those Truth commercials need to be shot...repeatedly. Everytime I see one I want to light up just to spite them. (Illogical I know)
It gets better, I wrote up a whole thing on the Faerun Pantheon discussing the changes for the NWN server I play on occassionally. Wouldnt be fitting here but it was along the same vein as that.
Well They DO look like they need a shower but U know what I mean...
"It's the Same Game."................He's Lying....
"Everything will be just as you remember it." ......He's lying again
"Paladins can be evil.....'.........................WTF? He's telling the truth?
Really, I feel like someone stuck a drill up my butt and put it on "Relentless."
Sadly, my brain is in my skull. Only people whose brains are in their butts could even contemplate such a ridiculous idea....
Still forgot to add the points of light part.
and no Gama World.
-Fixed.
Aside from the lack of logic inherant in the term evil paladin, if they want Asmodeus to have holy warriors...fine. Asmodeus, Bane, Cthulhu can have all the evil holy warriors they want. But by definition of the word, they wont be Paladins. Slapping the name on them isnt going to change that, but it might make Paladins want to come up with a new name to describe themselves.
-I had a very intense and passionate argument about this very topic with someone a while back. Can't remember who, but that don't really matter. Whoever it was wouldn't accept that fact that, by definition, Paladins need to be 'Lawful' and 'Good'. Anything else, by definition, isn't a Paladin.
2007 "Whiteguards are in now"... I feel like That Paladin of Tyr that Sir Shadow madeWell, you can tell the rest of us aren't happy about it either.
Well, not everyone:embarrass
Well, not everyone:embarrass
-You know, we were pawns of Shar when we cast our spell, now?
I just don't understand the logic there. And its got nothing to do with having an evil holy warrior that gets the same type of benefits....justdon't call it a paladin. Its not a generic term. If they want a generic holy warrior thats open to all alignments that is based on the Paladin fine. Find a new fricken name for them and drop Paladin altogether. Hell, call it Holy Warrior or Divine Champion or something. But you can't call that a Paladin simply because a Paladin is by definition more than just a holy warrior.
I think they're either completely changing the class and using it for name recognition (like alot of other things apparently) or they're jsut being lazy about it while pandering to a certain crowd.
-You know, we were pawns of Shar when we cast our spell, now?
I refuse to believe that. For simply mentioning such, you're having nothing but bread and water until further notice.
-You know, we were pawns of Shar when we cast our spell, now?
You ever gone through the books and noticed how many monsters, nations, races, and even peoples names have SHAR somewhere in them?
Well, not everyone:embarrass
That's a whole argument that's because of my english insecurity I don't feel to do
I refuse to believe that. For simply mentioning such, you're having nothing but bread and water until further notice.
-Don't worry. I don't remember ever being Shar's slave...Wait a minute. What was the name of that Goth Dominatrix you brought home that night?
You ever gone through the books and noticed how many monsters, nations, races, and even peoples names have SHAR somewhere in them?
-Like, the Shaar, for example? ;)
That's a whole argument that's because of my english insecurity I don't feel to do
It'd be a wasted argument, so it's a good thing you're not in the mood
To clarify: The reason why I don't have any particular feelings about it is because paladins have never existed in my Realms, thus my games (should I ever continue them) will not be affected by this silly stuff they're doing to them.
-Don't worry. I don't remember ever being Shar's slave...Wait a minute. What was the name of that Goth Dominatrix you brought home that night?
There was Lady Sarha...Lady Polaris (pre-ugly), the sorceress Jaline...that dozen or so elven lasses we never bothered with introductions....
I doubt any of them was Shar in disquise. But then...would it have really mattered?
It'd be a wasted argument, so it's a good thing you're not in the mood
To clarify: The reason why I don't have any particular feelings about it is because paladins have never existed in my Realms, thus my games (should I ever continue them) will not be affected by this silly stuff they're doing to them
Meh, that's cool. No one is perfect;)
Meh, that's cool. No one is perfect;)
Except LK, myself, and the missing 3rd aspect. Oh, and Stigger of course.
It's a constant struggle keeping up with everyone elses imperfections, but we have grown accustomed to it
There was Lady Sarha...Lady Polaris (pre-ugly), the sorceress Jaline...that dozen or so elven lasses we never bothered with introductions....
I doubt any of them was Shar in disquise. But then...would it have really mattered?
-Afterwards? No, not really.
Except LK, myself, and the missing 3rd aspect. Oh, and Stigger of course.
It's a constant struggle keeping up with everyone elses imperfections, but we have grown accustomed to it
-Feh, the things we put up with.
-Afterwards? No, not really.
Then why ask! Silly LK!
-Feh, the things we put up with.
You mean the things I put up with......you farse! I try and try......I feed the Hands.....all the taco's....the fahita's...the tortilla's----the cookies...I am simply not appreciated......so sad......
OF COURSE!!!! Thanks to 4E I can be a "Paladin of Lord Karsus"
OH! You think LK is the master of the Hands of Karsus, do you?????
Forget about Karsus the Mad...the one that upholds LK, gives him strength!, gives him purpose! Wooooo is me.....
boo hoo hooo.......
No more cookies for the Hand!!!!! I'm not cooking anymore! Not until I'm appreciated!
I'm a Karsus in repression...
It's me...your long lost third aspect. Do you remember me? I hate to have to tell you this, but Shar did trick us into casting Karsus's Avatar.
We got pretty drunk during the war games with Ioulaum's Enclave. There was this sexy goth nihilist chick. We started to brag about having a spell that could kill a god, and she dared us to prove we could. The rest is history.
Oops...our bad.
Indeed, a definite beat down is forthcoming...
Ahh...was it something I said?;) :D
-Can I be a "Paladin Of Lord Karsus/ the Mad/ Pawn of Shar"?....Please? ( I DO want my cookie)
Just be a Paladin of Mask and steal the cookie.
I don't know. I think in the new edition "we Karsus's" will get a demotion to sainthood in the service of Shar. As a dead god you could worship us in 3E, but you couldn't be a paladin. In 4E you can be a paladin, but I think you would end up worshiping Shar.
I finally become a god and I instantly turn into a lowly saint. I want paladins and clerics too damn't.
Really, I feel like someone stuck a drill up my butt and put it on "Relentless."
I have a blender in mine, and it's set to 'Frappé'... I think I'm starting to like it though. :P
-You know, we were pawns of Shar when we cast our spell, now?
IMG, you were tricked by the Arcane (Mercane). ;)
...again that shows how they are breaking it down "Barney style" for the "new improved(with money in their pokets) clients"
For the new players -
♪ "I HATE you, YOU hate me,
I just want some Phat Loots for free,
With a great big grapple and a stab from me to you,
Won't you come raid with us too?" ♫
In the Old Stormbriger game (called Dragon Lords of Melnibonea in 3e), players could be "Agents" of a god, which granted special benefits as long as you were following that deity's doctrine. An "Agent" of a lawful good God would basically be a Paladin, but each god had there own very different "Agent". This is what WotC SHOULD HAVE done - A paladin, Blackgaurd, Anti-Paladin, whatever - are all different types of agents - to give a word that has a SPECIFIC MEANING in at least two languages a completely different meaning in game terms is not only ludicrous, but it's also criminal! This is just like when Disney decided to make Hera the mother of Hercules in their rendition of the story, confusing an entire generation of kids!
Why are they 'lumping' things together under known game terms, even when they have nothing to do with it? Eladrin/Elves are another example of this phenomena! If they want Eladrin to be related to Elves, create a new name for the 'over-group', don't take one from the middle of the pack and name the entire group after it, creating nothing but confusion! This goes for the paladin as well, come up with a term like "Agent", and then assign the term "Paladin" to a certain type of a specific alignment. Are they TOO STUPID to think up new terms?!
The Chosen are another example - didn't gods already have some sort of agent in the planescape rules (Proxies?) So why did every FR god need Chosen - did they whine until they got them like petulent little children? A chosen should simple be Mystra's Proxie, end of story! If some other FR god has Proxies, let them think of their own godamn name for them!
I'm really getting tired of all this "blurring of lines" that is going on - if you need to have an 'overgroup' for something, like Agents and Proxies, then think of a new friggin' name; don't use one that is already established with 30+ years of lore behind it!
Here - I'll give you one -Ephemarels - that can be the group that BOTH Eladrin and Elves are part of. Don't make something INTO something we know it isn't. They may be able to change the rules, but now they are trying to change the way we think - if we Know what a word means then LEAVE IT ALONE... don't decide to change it because you guys think it's "cool".
I was really looking forward to seeing the 4e rules, but now I think they can just keep 'em. I already decided to pass on the new setting, but now I think I might skip the rules too.
Damn shame - for them I mean - I've personally taught over two hundred people how to play this game, and many of them have gone on to become DMs and teach it to others. This may be the very first time I have not moved to the latest rendition of the rules.
Hey Lord Karsus and Karsus the Mad,
It's me...your long lost third aspect. Do you remember me? I hate to have to tell you this, but Shar did trick us into casting Karsus's Avatar.
We got pretty drunk during the war games with Ioulaum's Enclave. There was this sexy goth nihilist chick. We started to brag about having a spell that could kill a god, and she dared us to prove we could. The rest is history.
Oops...our bad.
I thought I left you at the bottom of the Hudson with Jimmy Hoffa?!Edit: At least give me Hoffa. My ebay bid is up to 100 bucks!
Edited Edit: A toe....I'll settle for a toe. I have a bar tab to take care of afterall....
-Use WotC logic. It's simple, really.
Paladins = Cool
Evil = Cool
Paladins = Evil
No, this is how WoTC sees it:
Paladins = *COOL*
Evil = *ROCKIN'*
Evil Paladins = *COOL* and *ROCKIN'* (even more than our Design Teams!) ;) :P
From "capricious" we go to "psychotic cannibal"? Spawn of hell? Hyperbole FTW.
Are you aware that SOCIAL encounters do not require a creature's stats? Social instead of roleplaying because you can roleplay while fighting, you know. Done that a lot - all the time in pbp, actually. Also, while social encounters are possible even with nothing but a simple description of the creature's appearance, nature, and motives, a combat encounter requires crunchy numbers and suitable abilities.
4E is introducing Social Challenges, and I assume that the DC of the check depends both on your "opponent's" stats and your intent/goal. Of course, if you do not try to influence any participants (in that encounter) in a *mechanical* way (e.g. intimidate) you might not need any stats.
4E is introducing Social Challenges, and I assume that the DC of the check depends both on your "opponent's" stats and your intent/goal. Of course, if you do not try to influence any participants (in that encounter) in a *mechanical* way (e.g. intimidate) you might not need any stats.
Aah but see you're forgetting that a social encounter these days is apparently
A. Something you'd see in a KOTD comic
or
B. What do I need to roll for this 'encounter'
Despite what some people seem to think, rolling a diplomacy check or an intimidate check is not roleplaying. And from the previews on EN (or at least how they've been described) thats what it seems to me. Rolling your diplomacy skill versus the NPC's diplomacy armor class.
Peasant: "Ha! You think me a simple peasant, but I am really an ex-adventurer, and I am wearing a +5 suit of Diplomatic Armor, so take your vorpal negotiating skills elsewhere".
PC: "You can't be an ex-adventurer! Don't thy knowest the Wizards who dwelleth upon the Coast killed off all of thine brood with the might of 4e?"
Peasant: "Damn... you got me there... the only people allowed to be over lev 1 in this brave new world are PC Adventurers and their frail little egos."
Yeah... thats sounds like loads of fun...
No, this is how WoTC sees it:
Paladins = *COOL*
Evil = *ROCKIN'*
Evil Paladins = *COOL* and *ROCKIN'* (even more than our Design Teams!) ;) :P
K....
I expected better from you!
Don't be a 70's sit com!
So I suppose Undead Pirate Ninja Drow Assassins would be full-blown "Off the Sheazy"?
Only if they were Undead Pirate Drow Ninja Drow Assasins that followed Shar and weilded two scimitar.
So I suppose Undead Pirate Ninja Drow Assassins would be full-blown "Off the Sheazy"?
WHA???????
That's 4E.
WTF are you talking about?????
You're confoooooooooooooooooooooooooozzzzzling me!
You're confoooooooooooooooooooooooooozzzzzling me!
-No, that's the alcohol.
Actualy no because Lord Kasus/ the Mad/ Pawn of Shar are just vestiges from the Tome of Magic...I guess if you want to associate yourself with this powerless being you could be a Binder and let them ride shotgun in your head so they can actualy do something...but the benefit they give aren't that great and I imagine their impotent voices demanding things would get boring after a while... :P
Actualy no because Lord Kasus/ the Mad/ Pawn of Shar are just vestiges from the Tome of Magic...
-Believe it or not, but that's a different Karsus. Go figure. KtM, our missing third aspect, and myself exist as an astral corpse, a semi-intelligent golem, and an pseudo-godly essence.
-It was a popular name, back in the day. It was almost as popular as Wulgreth.
-Believe it or not, but that's a different Karsus. Go figure. KtM, our missing third aspect, and myself exist as an astral corpse, a semi-intelligent golem, and an pseudo-godly essence.
-It was a popular name, back in the day. It was almost as popular as Wulgreth.
Well the semi-intelligent part I believe..;) :P
But um...this is sad how to you break it to a vestige that they are a vestige?
I'll try logic...
So what you are saying is that there were two powerful spellcasters who attempted to steal the powers of a deity of magic...suceeded...but couldn't contain the power. So what you are saying is that this was also a common occurence?
Only if they were Undead Pirate Drow Ninja Drow Assasins that followed Shar and weilded two scimitar.
:rolleye2: :raincloud :surrender :headexplo :hoppingmaI'll try logic...
So what you are saying is that there were two powerful spellcasters who attempted to steal the powers of a deity of magic...suceeded...but couldn't contain the power. So what you are saying is that this was also a common occurence?
-4e, baby!
-4e, baby!
Yes 4e beats all attemps at logic...you win.
:PYes 4e beats all attemps at logic...you win.
LK doesn't play fair:D
-No, that's the alcohol.
Oh...ok:embarrass
In the Old Stormbriger game (called Dragon Lords of Melnibonea in 3e), players could be "Agents" of a god, which granted special benefits as long as you were following that deity's doctrine. An "Agent" of a lawful good God would basically be a Paladin, but each god had there own very different "Agent". This is what WotC SHOULD HAVE done - A paladin, Blackgaurd, Anti-Paladin, whatever - are all different types of agents - to give a word that has a SPECIFIC MEANING in at least two languages a completely different meaning in game terms is not only ludicrous, but it's also criminal! This is just like when Disney decided to make Hera the mother of Hercules in their rendition of the story, confusing an entire generation of kids!
(Rest of post snipped for brevity)
I agree entirely. I could quite easily buy the notion of an umbrella 'Divine Champion' class, of which Paladins were the Lawful-Good variant. "What's in a name?" Well, quite a lot, actually, as Markus explains. Of course, WotC is not the first to create evil Paladins, so they shouldn't take the blame completely... as much as I hate to drag the much-benighted WoW into this, the Blood Elven "Paladins" there, though not stated as outrightly evil, are drawn to be such in fairly clear terms, and gain their powers only through force (whether one buys the explanation is another argument that is irrelevant here, though).
Even this and a few other annoyances I've heard from the rules side I can ignore, though, because it's easy enough to say "All Paladins in my game are Lawful Good, Period." Fixing damage done to other things may be slightly trickier, but the renaming of some elves to eladrin is likewise fixable. Demon/Devil issues may take a bit more work, but again, it can be done.
The problems with the Realms, though, are so much more widespread than just a few name changes or statblocks. I realized something as I stood in the local gamestore the other day - I want to like the Realms products, and I want to keep buying them. Unfortunately, after 3.5e ends printing (and in some ways even before that), it's no longer the Realms that I know and love. I've tried to stretch and make concessions, but given that the designers have apparently told us that what the core Realms Fans think doesn't matter, I just can't see any reason to. No, I don't expect to have my every whim catered to - I'd be happy with even a few minor concessions just to show they cared.
Things have been (or have been decided that they will be) killed off, retconned, skewed, twisted, and otherwise warped to the point that I just can no longer find the spirit of what made this gameworld special anymore.
Only if they were Undead Pirate Drow Ninja Drow Assasins that followed Shar and weilded two scimitar.
Totally gonna steal this to harrass my party with :D
Unfortunately, after 3.5e ends printing (and in some ways even before that), it's no longer the Realms that I know and love. I've tried to stretch and make concessions, but given that the designers have apparently told us that what the core Realms Fans think doesn't matter, I just can't see any reason to. No, I don't expect to have my every whim catered to - I'd be happy with even a few minor concessions just to show they cared.
Things have been (or have been decided that they will be) killed off, retconned, skewed, twisted, and otherwise warped to the point that I just can no longer find the spirit of what made this gameworld special anymore.
I'd really like to know what that 'spirit' was to you. I'm not asking this to be rude. I'm just curious, what was in the Realms that isn't going to be there now to make you feel that way.
I'd really like to know what that 'spirit' was to you. I'm not asking this to be rude. I'm just curious, what was in the Realms that isn't going to be there now to make you feel that way.
If I had to pin it on anything in the gameworld itself, I'd have to say a fair bit of it was the personalities that inhabited it - the characters whose stories I had followed, both heroes and villains that I liked. Some of it is hard to put my finger on... that feeling that makes the Realms the Realms. It's how I used to feel with Dragonlance, prior to reading Dragons of Summer Flame and all that followed.
But what is most damaging of all isn't necessarily that they've killed my favorite God or Goddess, or that my favorite hero or heroine is dead. Rather, it is how it is being done, the scale on which it is being done for, and the rationale behind it, that rings quite hollow in my ears.
And after what I've seen and heard of late, I've come to the opinion that the designers ultimately think my opinion on the Realms is irrelevant. When I first heard what was in store, I came here hoping to learn something that would mitigate the bad rumors I had heard. When that proved not to be the case, I then tried to join in the conversation, petitioning and asking for some sort of compromises, and advocating that those who disliked the changes try to work with the designers. However, in my opinion, what I and others had to say was ignored. The designers have effectively made it clear that the Realms are no longer a place where I, with what I want, am welcome.
At least, that's how I feel now. I'm not saying this to be hurtful or accusatory - as I said, I don't want this to be the case. I just haven't seen any good reasons to be optimistic, and a lot of hints at why I ought not to be.
Regarding paladins: I'm rather "square", so I'm also in the camp of people who prefer paladins to be Lawful Good only. I thought Sir Shadow illustrated the issue perfectly earlier (in a funny way, too!). Every god can have holy warriors, but why do they all need to be called "paladins"? Like it or not, the word "paladin" as applied to D&D has plenty of baggage attached to it, namely that it's supposed to be restricted to LG characters only (and that's not even the only paladin guideline either--there's a whole code such characters are supposed to follow).
a member of a pre-Christian religious order among the ancient Celts of Gaul, Britain, and Ireland.
If the option of allowing evil and neutral gold dragons in core means that the game is now all about getting their “phat lootz”, are all evil monsters in your game for this same purpose also? By broadening the available alignments of metallic dragons, the DM has more options for his game, more inspiration. Instead of only appearing as wise sages who help the players or (very rarely) as allies in high level games, metallic dragons can now act as villains too. Thus, making the MM more useful to the DM. A monster has more roles = more useful. Simple.
As said, the dryad’s ugly form is its look when it becomes aggressive—they still retain their classic beautiful humanoid form otherwise. However, there already exists another creature that fills the “beautiful woman fey who looks frail and uses magic” stereotype, namely the nymph. The MM only has a limited number of pages—I for one want it to be filled with as much variety as possible. Thus, overlapping stereotypes or roles need to be fixed.
Social combat. As in, more extensive rules for social challenges. In 3e, rules for social interaction are somewhat lacking, Diplomacy especially. If the 4e gives us better rules for it, I’m all for it. How does this play into the 15-year-old WoW player claim (which in itself is ridiculous)?
Also, change is good.
Annexing these words to mean different things gains nothing but confusion. Get your own words!
If the option of allowing evil and neutral gold dragons in core means that the game is now all about getting their “phat lootz”, are all evil monsters in your game for this same purpose also?
Actually, that's a pretty good argument.
As said, the dryad’s ugly form is its look when it becomes aggressive—they still retain their classic beautiful humanoid form otherwise.
Actually, didn't the text say that the "aggresive" form is what the designers now see as the dryad's true form? If that's the case, it's the beautiful form that's the false face, not the aggresive, wooden-man form.
I'm mentioning this because people keep insisting it's the opposite.
Also, change is good.
Sometimes. Not all the time. Not all change is good.
Druid
a member of a pre-Christian religious order among the ancient Celts of Gaul, Britain, and Ireland.
You're confused because you missed the part (in my post anyway) where I said:
" Like it or not, the word "paladin" as applied to D&D has plenty of baggage attached to it..."
Note the part in bold. It's amazing how I do my best to make my ideas clear, and people still misinterpret anyway...assuming my post was actually read, and not simply skimmed over.
You're confused because you missed the part (in my post anyway) where I said:
" Like it or not, the word "paladin" as applied to D&D has plenty of baggage attached to it..."
Note the part in bold. It's amazing how I do my best to make my ideas clear, and people still misinterpret anyway...assuming my post was actually read, and not simply skimmed over.
Actually, I wasn't replying to your post, but the mass of others crying foul over evil paladins. Thanks for clearing the dryad thing (I actually like that that tree-like form is its real face :cool
.Actually, I wasn't replying to your post, but the mass of others crying foul over evil paladins.
All right then. Everything I said about my previous post still applies, though--when I use the term "paladin" here, I'm not talking about anything other than the D&D definition of what a paladin is supposed to be.
Thanks for clearing the dryad thing (I actually like that that tree-like form is its real face :cool
Well, hey, to each their own.
*don't read to much into this word plz just the everyday meaning here; nothing to do with Shar :D
What does a Paladin of Jubilex DO?
Realistically, how could a character like this even survive? I mean, let's face it. His COHORT is a slime! His followers are OOZES! I mean, yeah, you could make an adventure where the PC's face off against this guy and his slimy horde, but you know, the theory of the dynamic dungeon kind of holds sway here. There is no dynamism in this dungeon because the creatures move at...umm...10 feet per round. Except the Paladin of Jubilex, who moves at 30, or 20 if he's a Dwarf. Hmmm....Got a group of all dwarves? Then it might still be viable...No, wait, one could be a monk...DARNIT! I knew I couldn't get around it in my own game....
And the social limitations. My god. Getting a date? Forget it. He's devoted to the god of slime! There's a big difference between getting it wet and messy and being covered in acidic gelatin! Plus, everyone thinks you're no fun at parties, your smite doesn't deal additional damage, people just become nauseated for a round, and the lack of baths....horrible.
And he believes in this wholeheartedly?
*don't read to much into this word plz just the everyday meaning here; nothing to do with Shar :D
I know.:P
I'll have to take a closer look at the new troll...
Explanation: Read the OA rules - ANY edition. Fey are SPIRITS - they are tenuous in nature and are usually not visible to mortals. This can take many forms - dryads hide in their trees, Fossergrim in Waterfalls, others become invisible, some 'mask' their appearance - whatever. It is all part of the Fey nature - they are masters of Illusion (called Glamours), and can take any shape they wish. Do they even have a real 'physical' form if they are spirits? When they manifest on the Prime material, they can chose any form they wish, but certain types usually gravitate to certain forms. These Dryads are nothing new - it just shows me the direction the new 4e rules are taking on Fey creatures. In fact, if you look at the 3e OA rules - the ones about Rokugon - there is also quite a bit about the Shadoworld as well - all of these 'new' creatures we are getting are not truly new - they just seem to be taking whatever way was handled 'best (in their opinions) and using that in 4e. Fey ARE spirits, end of story.
And a spirit can appear anyway it likes... ;)
Druid
a member of a pre-Christian religious order among the ancient Celts of Gaul, Britain, and Ireland.
a paladin has a defination outsider of it's historical role. They are using the word wrong. A druid has a historical role only as a priest of the old celtic relgion. Beyond that it doesn't exist till D&D came almong and modified it.
I mean other divine servant aren't a bad idea they have existed in some form since 1st edition. I just think they shouldn't be called paladins.
Explanation: Read the OA rules - ANY edition. Fey are SPIRITS - they are tenuous in nature and are usually not visible to mortals. This can take many forms - dryads hide in their trees, Fossergrim in Waterfalls, others become invisible, some 'mask' their appearance - whatever. It is all part of the Fey nature - they are masters of Illusion (called Glamours), and can take any shape they wish. Do they even have a real 'physical' form if they are spirits? When they manifest on the Prime material, they can chose any form they wish, but certain types usually gravitate to certain forms. These Dryads are nothing new - it just shows me the direction the new 4e rules are taking on Fey creatures. In fact, if you look at the 3e OA rules - the ones about Rokugon - there is also quite a bit about the Shadoworld as well - all of these 'new' creatures we are getting are not truly new - they just seem to be taking whatever way was handled 'best (in their opinions) and using that in 4e. Fey ARE spirits, end of story.
Please lets ignore the 3rd edition OA as it slaughtered the concept of fey. You might be right so again why does a spirit creature need a brute force combat form? When before subtlness work wonders. Heck Feys creatures(with a very few exceptions..RedCap) should Not be combat monsters.
If the option of allowing evil and neutral gold dragons in core means that the game is now all about getting their “phat lootz”, are all evil monsters in your game for this same purpose also? By broadening the available alignments of metallic dragons, the DM has more options for his game, more inspiration. Instead of only appearing as wise sages who help the players or (very rarely) as allies in high level games, metallic dragons can now act as villains too. Thus, making the MM more useful to the DM. A monster has more roles = more useful. Simple.
I never felty limited by monsters 'roles' before. Hey maybe I can see there point a little if they said that dragons will stop being color coded. No instead it was just the metalic dragons that are changing from what they said.
As said, the dryad’s ugly form is its look when it becomes aggressive—they still retain their classic beautiful humanoid form otherwise. However, there already exists another creature that fills the “beautiful woman fey who looks frail and uses magic” stereotype, namely the nymph. The MM only has a limited number of pages—I for one want it to be filled with as much variety as possible. Thus, overlapping stereotypes or roles need to be fixed.
So we should remove overlap? Then I guess we can limit the Monster manuel to about 20 monsters. Heck we can only have one dragon type then. Also probably the nymph will have a brute force combat form too. And we are getting the MM 1 a year...it has lots of pages. You do know they are trying very hard to get rid of the concept of core only with this edition right?
Social combat. As in, more extensive rules for social challenges. In 3e, rules for social interaction are somewhat lacking, Diplomacy especially. If the 4e gives us better rules for it, I’m all for it. How does this play into the 15-year-old WoW player claim (which in itself is ridiculous)?
Sorry but I am of the opinion that less rules are always better...diplomacy in my game is really just a knowledge skill on how to act and used to barter with. Better rules would be less rules.
Also, change is good.
All changes have a good side and a bad side. These changes seem to me leaning very heavily to the bad side. Though rather a change is good or bad is completely subjective.
Regarding the earlier posts about non-good metallic dragons in 4e, ugly dryads, and 4e being aimed at15-year-old WoW hack-and-slashers:
If the option of allowing evil and neutral gold dragons in core means that the game is now all about getting their “phat lootz”, are all evil monsters in your game for this same purpose also? By broadening the available alignments of metallic dragons, the DM has more options for his game, more inspiration. Instead of only appearing as wise sages who help the players or (very rarely) as allies in high level games, metallic dragons can now act as villains too. Thus, making the MM more useful to the DM. A monster has more roles = more useful. Simple.
No, my game is not built around "phat lootz" and going up in level. My games start with a basic theme. I never run adventure modules and I let the story, plot, and theme of the game develop around the actions that the PCs and NPCs take. Wealth and XP awards are incidental.
There is a degree of moral ambiguity in my games. PCs and NPCs can break stereotypes. Good creatures can be evil and evil creature can be good. I don't really care about the alignment change in dragons or that the dryad turned into a forest "tank" to get beat on. I just believe that the motive behind the changes is to turn the MM into a list of "cool" things hack-n-slash players can kill. Kinda the same way the Magic Item Comp is a list of "cool" things hack-n-slash players can get.As said, the dryad’s ugly form is its look when it becomes aggressive—they still retain their classic beautiful humanoid form otherwise. However, there already exists another creature that fills the “beautiful woman fey who looks frail and uses magic” stereotype, namely the nymph. The MM only has a limited number of pages—I for one want it to be filled with as much variety as possible. Thus, overlapping stereotypes or roles need to be fixed.
Logic ruins your argument here. There are very few "beautiful woman fey" in the MM, but there are many big scary "tank" creatures in the MM that can be encountered in the forest. The change in the dryad means that the MM has less variety not more.Social combat. As in, more extensive rules for social challenges. In 3e, rules for social interaction are somewhat lacking, Diplomacy especially. If the 4e gives us better rules for it, I’m all for it. How does this play into the 15-year-old WoW player claim (which in itself is ridiculous)?
Also, change is good.
Clearly we are both looking at the same changes and coming to wildly different conclusions. This is a very subjective issue so it is likely neither of us will be able to change the other persons mind.
I believe the changes in 4e were made to attract hack-n-slash gamers you don't. I think change can be great when done correctly and you think all change is good. I think we should just agree to disagree.
Happy Gaming. ;) :D
P.S. Social combat is the ONLY change in 4e that I am interested in seeing. I will look at it and think about house ruling it for my games. I HATE ALL the LORE changes in the Realms and in core (devils, demons, etc.). I will not buy any 4e because very little in it appeals to me. I'll spend my money on 1e, 2e, and 3e Realms products that I can use.
I'd disagree that spirits can appear any way they like, but that's coming from a Werewolf: The Apocalypse point of view, not one couched in D&D stuff. Can't say I know much of anything about how D&D handles spirits really.
Aye. I wonder about that too. Without the ghostwalk setting D&D spirits are an enigma. But thats cool too. About ghosts choosing their form. In the Ghostwalk setting ectoplasm (the tactile stuff of the ethereal on the material) is highly morphable in the right conditions. Ask clerics and psionic sages. It may take a good sculpter but a ghost could modify its form as it wishes with enough time.
Ok.
So, lets say (from an actual session I've played) you have a normal party, pretty well rounded but has two paladins in it. Say this person, a not very nice person, was being hunted by said party and that the overall goal was to bring the man to justice (IE put him to death for his crimes once they caught up with him). However lets also say taht this man was also somewhat of a chess peice between a Gold and a Red Dragon where it turned out that despite the crimes the man had committed the gold dragon (who has a different view of the greater picture) was quite unhappy that said party was trying to kill something he was using in part of his plans.
It starts with a warning, then a little more direct approach of harrassment, and then finally it gets to the poitn where the party has to fight the dragon or let their quarry get away. Now, being a Gold Dragon they don't nescessarily want to kill it, but the dragon is still opposed to what they are doing and won't budge on anything so now in addition they have a moral conflict.
You're right, there is no way any non evil dragon can be used as a 'villan' without being evil or neutral. Heaven forbid people actually take time and use their imaginations and come up with other things than "Wise old sage" for Dragons to do. Is it so hard to come up with ideas that you need to have things spelled out for you? The only way a dragon of any color could possibly be useful is if its an evil overlord. Just because you can't seem to see beyond a statblock doesnt mean no one else can and that a monster is useless in the Monster Manual unless its evil.
Same with the Dryad and the Nymph. You can have conflict without them being hideously ugly and turning into a combat form. But then again, its not an evil creature so its useless and has no options. Nevermind the fact that if your in a forest and **** off a nymph or a dryad you're probably not going to know it for quite a while because unlike what you apparently see them doing..they DO NOT CHARGE BLINDLY INTO BATTLE. They actually think. They use their surroundings. They use the forest. Chances are you'll be pretty beaten up by all the traps, rabid bears attacking you and who knows what else the Dryad or Nymph set after you before you even come anywhere near actually encountering them themselves.
You want options,, heres a little tip. Try looking at somethingother than hitpoints and armor class and try actually reading. I swear, no options? Seriously? Well that probably comes fromt he fact that the 3E Monster Manuals have nothing but combat stats and powers. You want to find uses for a creature, try looking int he only Monstrous Compendium. The big binder, you know where it actuall had information about the creatures outside of combat. But you're right, having a book that contains nothing but combat information on creatures isnt geared towards jsut combat. uh huh.
And an evil Paladin, Historical or in regards to D&D is still an oxymoron. Sense the entire inception of the game, the term Paladin ahs meant ONE thing. A LAwful Good Holy Warrior. And wether you like it or not, wether you choose to admit it or not the Original Paladin class was modeled after Roland and the Twelve Peers of Charlamagne. (And not the Knights of the Round Table because lets face it, if you've actually read the stories you'd be hard pressed to find a paladin among them other than Galahad...maybe Percival.)
Like I've said, like others have said. You want evil holy warriors of the same vein...fine. But they arent by definition going to be paladins. And if you want to be technical about it, there isnt any need for Evil Paladins because you ahve clerics already who are more holy warrior than priest. (Honestly, how many faiths would actually have armed ,combat trained clergy. Sune for example. Its why I use Experts as NPC Priests for most faiths.)
And please, stop with the "Change is good" because the backhanded inplication, deny it if you want, is that people are only upset because its change and are afraid of change etc etc etc. Give it a rest. Enough people have proved that that's not the case.
But apparently the new social rules wil encourage roleplaying...yeah not from where I'm standing. Do what I say, I rolled a 20 on my social skill.
And please, stop with the "Change is good" because the backhanded inplication, deny it if you want, is that people are only upset because its change and are afraid of change etc etc etc. Give it a rest. Enough people have proved that that's not the case.
Agreed. Making a blanket, universal statement such as "Change is good" is just as false as someone saying the opposite, "Change is bad." It is neither inherently good nor bad. Tossing out something like this doesn't add to the discussion, it just tries to make this into an argument of polar opposites, which is not the case.
I'd disagree that spirits can appear any way they like, but that's coming from a Werewolf: The Apocalypse point of view, not one couched in D&D stuff. Can't say I know much of anything about how D&D handles spirits really.
In D&D spirits have always been 'locked in' to a certain form, just like in White Wolf games, but OA spirits are different and lean more toward traditional folkore - where Fey change shape, size, color, etc, etc... in all the old stories, and they abound with 'evil' creatures (crones, Unseelie Fey, etc) that can appear as beautiful females or males to trap wayward travellers - and this is universal, not just European.
The new take is going back to Fairy roots and using the OA rules as a base - just look at what they are doing to the other outsiders as well - all of these creatures - Fey, Shadowbeings, Fiends, Celestials, Oni, Deva, etc... are ALL spirits - and each have a different role to play in the natural world. Even gods are sometimes lumped in with these Kami (spirits), although they are more like "High Kami" (Greater Spirits). This appears to be what they are doing, considering all the cosmological changes and changes to outer-planar creatures (like tying Elves to the Eladrin) - it all points to a more cohesive 'background fantasy' world going on just outside of plain sight -
you know - those things that you catch out of the corner of your eye...
Its a more mystical approach to the universe, as opposed to the mechanical one that Planescape appeared to represent. I'm sure a lot of the new magical traditions will be based on what sort of creatures a mage associates with as well. This part sounds very intriguing to me, and it would be nice if they could tie everything together in the next addition (Life, Magic, the Universe... everything)- it's an ambition undertaking, and I look forward to seeing what they have come up with.
Of course, I was using all of that twenty years ago... but I've always been ahead of my time. ;)
Regarding the earlier posts about non-good metallic dragons in 4e, ugly dryads, and 4e being aimed at15-year-old WoW hack-and-slashers:
If the option of allowing evil and neutral gold dragons in core means that the game is now all about getting their “phat lootz”, are all evil monsters in your game for this same purpose also? By broadening the available alignments of metallic dragons, the DM has more options for his game, more inspiration. Instead of only appearing as wise sages who help the players or (very rarely) as allies in high level games, metallic dragons can now act as villains too. Thus, making the MM more useful to the DM. A monster has more roles = more useful. Simple.
As said, the dryad’s ugly form is its look when it becomes aggressive—they still retain their classic beautiful humanoid form otherwise. However, there already exists another creature that fills the “beautiful woman fey who looks frail and uses magic” stereotype, namely the nymph. The MM only has a limited number of pages—I for one want it to be filled with as much variety as possible. Thus, overlapping stereotypes or roles need to be fixed.
Social combat. As in, more extensive rules for social challenges. In 3e, rules for social interaction are somewhat lacking, Diplomacy especially. If the 4e gives us better rules for it, I’m all for it. How does this play into the 15-year-old WoW player claim (which in itself is ridiculous)?
Also, change is good.
-Ok I'm REALLY going to do my best to explain myself without sounding either rude or stupid *deep breath*.
- IMO there's no reason to expand the metalic dragrons alignments, at all.
You say:
By broadening the available alignments of metallic dragons, the DM has more options for his game, more inspiration.
I say:
More options? Yes. more inspiration?
WRONG! You need alot more isnpiration to (and talent) to make a storyline That works) with a Paladin fight a Gold Dragon. You Say:
Instead of only appearing as wise sages who help the players or (very rarely) as allies in high level games, metallic dragons can now act as villains too.
I say: A Metalic Gragon can be an "enemy" while bein goo dat the same time (Being in different sides of a war, the player need to get a relic that will save a friends life but it has destructive powers only known to the dragon and so on)
You say:
Thus, making the MM more useful to the DM. A monster has more roles = more useful. Simple.
I say: That's actually a waste of space. what's the point of having TWO Dragons that have a relative equal CR and having the same abilities (like A Gold Dragon vs. Red Dragon). Moving on....
The whole Dryad thing is TOTALLY cosmetic so.... a can always say that she looks like a pokeom if i want her to...
and the whole social combat thing well I really don't like it just because it seems that the player get everything done for them so they can't grow to be good players like we all.
So, as mood changes, so does its appearance. Humans do that, so do the other races - you don't make a 'mad face' when angry? Frown when you are sad? Smile when elated?
Because Fey/spirits are more PRIMAL (elemental), there whole body takes on a new aspect, not just their face. The new condition becomes part of their nature, because they ARE nature.
Its a very different way to work the D&D universe, but it's not all that new. I said I figured that certain spellcasters would need to associate with various 'spirits' to get their magic - this was already done in 2e with the Shi'ar and their Gen (basically a familiar that fetches spells). I can't wait to see what they do with witches and familiars - of course, it all depends on how far down this Wicca-like path they want to go.
In D&D spirits have always been 'locked in' to a certain form, just like in White Wolf games, but OA spirits are different and lean more toward traditional folkore - where Fey change shape, size, color, etc, etc... in all the old stories, and they abound with 'evil' creatures (crones, Unseelie Fey, etc) that can appear as beautiful females or males to trap wayward travellers - and this is universal, not just European.
The new take is going back to Fairy roots and using the OA rules as a base - just look at what they are doing to the other outsiders as well - all of these creatures - Fey, Shadowbeings, Fiends, Celestials, Oni, Deva, etc... are ALL spirits - and each have a different role to play in the natural world. Even gods are sometimes lumped in with these Kami (spirits), although they are more like "High Kami" (Greater Spirits). This appears to be what they are doing, considering all the cosmological changes and changes to outer-planar creatures (like tying Elves to the Eladrin) - it all points to a more cohesive 'background fantasy' world going on just outside of plain sight -
you know - those things that you catch out of the corner of your eye...
Its a more mystical approach to the universe, as opposed to the mechanical one that Planescape appeared to represent. I'm sure a lot of the new magical traditions will be based on what sort of creatures a mage associates with as well. This part sounds very intriguing to me, and it would be nice if they could tie everything together in the next addition (Life, Magic, the Universe... everything)- it's an ambition undertaking, and I look forward to seeing what they have come up with.
Of course, I was using all of that twenty years ago... but I've always been ahead of my time. ;)
Yeah but I doubt they are getting that metaphysical...I mean the dryads 'natural form' is also it's 'combat form'. Which means it was designed to fight. It isn't just a form it chooses...it is what it is. The mthological Dryad never changes her shape(neither did their male counterparts the Satyr). Actualy I am really hard pressed to call them fey at all as they are greek mythology not celtic.
Also spritis neve equaled fey to me. The part in the OA was because they simply didn't want to take the time and do it the way they should have which is create a new creature type Spirit so they lumped them in with fey.
I think you are giving them too much credit.
And while I'ma t it, I'm sorry but the need for "social rules" is just a way to roll dice instead of you know, actual interaction. I can honestly say, a roll of the dice has never determined the outcome of a social encounter.
But apparently the new social rules wil encourage roleplaying...yeah not from where I'm standing. Do what I say, I rolled a 20 on my social skill.
I don't know any thing about the new social rules yet. I want to read them, but I can say that I have already seen the example you just gave in real life.
In one of my 3e games I put together a tavern. I designed a few NPCs and came up with a few "rumors" that the PCs could learn more about. Two of the NPCs in the tavern were a 40ish woman and her 16yr old daughter.
One of the players decided that instead of learning about the surrounding area he wanted to hit on the young girl.
Her mother told him to go away. The player insisted that he should be allowed a diplomacy check and rolled a d20 after I told him no. He rolled a 20 and claimed that the mother should let him do any thing he wanted with her kid. I told him no. He complained that I wasn't following the rules and I told him I can change the rules. The other players backed me up. Then we went back to playing. So I do see your point about social rules. I will be careful with them.;)The mthological Dryad never changes her shape(neither did their male counterparts the Satyr).
Agree with everything you said, but one small correction: I believe it's Dryad/Faun, Nymph/Satyr.
Agree with everything you said, but one small correction: I believe it's Dryad/Faun, Nymph/Satyr.
You might be right...it has been awhile since I have read into Greek mythology.
One of the players decided that instead of learning about the surrounding area he wanted to hit on the young girl.
I would have very calmly picked up the d20, checked it for flaws, made sure it wasn't loaded or rigged, then beaned him between the eyes with it and went back to what I was doing.
The only time I've ever used dice in "Social Combat" (Think thats a really lame 'gamey' term in and of itself) is maybe percentile dice behind the screen to see get a random general feeling (yes or no kinda thing). Other than that, I'm quite capable, and I'd like to think that any other DM out there is as well, of running a social scene without heavy rules, social combat, or dice.
By your example here (and your reaction to it) shows such rules are unneeded. I'm thoroughly against the adding of any such rules in the books that put roleplay into the hands of dice. But thats just me.
A Leprechaun is a Leprechaun because it chooses that job - if it decided to brew beer instead it would become a Clauricaun.
So the leprechaun's job is to guard cereal?:P
Wich brings me around full circle - there was a giant Rabbit in the old Mystara setting called a Pooka - a Fey creature that can assume ANY form. :D
Also spritis neve equaled fey to me. The part in the OA was because they simply didn't want to take the time and do it the way they should have which is create a new creature type Spirit so they lumped them in with fey.
Actually, the oriental concept of spirits coincides nicely with fey - it's the western European concept of spirits being 'ghosts' that confuses things. Oriental spirits (kami) are beings of nature - they are sort of the 'caretakers' of the natural world (not exactly, more like gaurdians in some cases). The Fey fit that niche nicely, at least the folklore image of them does - think of them as Nature Elementals.
I think you are giving them too much credit.
You're right. They're probably just re-naming old stuff with other old names and terms, and trying to pass it off as 'Creativity'.
I'm sure it will never be as good as I imagine it could be.
But I can dream... can't I? ;)
And Dryads (forests) are just a certain type of Nyph, along with
Naiads (springs and rivers)
Nereid (the Mediterranean)
Oceanids (the sea)
Oreads (mountains)
Limoniads (meadows)
Limniads (lakes, marshes and swamps)
Napaea (valleys)
Hamadryads are are often used inter-changebly with Dryad, but I prefer to think of Dryads for Deciduous Trees, and Hamadryads for Coniferous. Thats just me, though, and there's no real lore to confirm that.
Plus, those are just the Grecian ones; there are plenty of similar beings in Celtic, Finnish, Meso-American, Norse, and eastern mythologies, to name a few.
Nymph is just a generic term for female-appearing nature spirits.
Ok taht's it! you people are to smart fot me... from now on I'll keep quiet and do (mostly killing) whatever LK/KtM/KPoS tell me to...:embarrass
-Don't listen to KPoS. He's a sham.
No, Leprechauns make shoes - it's giant rabbits that go around messing with kids cereal. :P
Wich brings me around full circle - there was a giant Rabbit in the old Mystara setting called a Pooka - a Fey creature that can assume ANY form. :D
Actually, the oriental concept of spirits coincides nicely with fey - it's the western European concept of spirits being 'ghosts' that confuses things. Oriental spirits (kami) are beings of nature - they are sort of the 'caretakers' of the natural world (not exactly, more like gaurdians in some cases). The Fey fit that niche nicely, at least the folklore image of them does - think of them as Nature Elementals.
You're right. They're probably just re-naming old stuff with other old names and terms, and trying to pass it off as 'Creativity'.
I'm sure it will never be as good as I imagine it could be.
But I can dream... can't I? ;)
And Dryads (forests) are just a certain type of Nyph, along with
Naiads (springs and rivers)
Nereid (the Mediterranean)
Oceanids (the sea)
Oreads (mountains)
Limoniads (meadows)
Limniads (lakes, marshes and swamps)
Napaea (valleys)
Hamadryads are are often used inter-changebly with Dryad, but I prefer to think of Dryads for Deciduous Trees, and Hamadryads for Coniferous. Thats just me, though, and there's no real lore to confirm that.
Plus, those are just the Grecian ones; there are plenty of similar beings in Celtic, Finnish, Meso-American, Norse, and eastern mythologies, to name a few.
Nymph is just a generic term for female-appearing nature spirits.
Ok I still never find the fey of Celtic myth( which is what fey are...Kami, dryads, satyrs, etc are not fey) aren't very nature oriented....they are more like enities of chaos from the myths.
And sure some fey did have the power to change shape( changelings being one of them) other couldn't though. Also the nature spirits of greek myth you mentioned couldn't either...though if we follow these myths precisely then centaurs, trolls, orgers, goblins, dwarves, etc. are all considered spirits or fey...just different aspects of the naturtal world or human nature.
Me I like the way D&D dealt with these being in the past...it was loosely based on myths...maybe in my humble opinion with a more realistic spin on it...
But the main reason why I think you are just being wishful is because if they were following your reasoning these 'fey' or 'spirits' wouldn't have a natural form. But they do. The dryads natural form is it is brute force form...which sorta just kicks the mythological and the D&D dryad right in the teeth. And again it turns a encounter that is subtle and more RP related to hack n' slash...I just don't like that much.
Anyway we'll see who is right in a few months...
-What, exactly, is this Social Combat, anyway? Basically, instead of "freeform" roleplaying, there will be dice to determine things, such as reactions, and what not?
'Social Combat' is a term I coined(I think I was the 1st to use it) while reading the Exalted( and White Wolf's ) rules on social interaction...where there is Social AC and Social to hit....and I think even Social initative. It is very dull system that hampers creatvity and takes the game out of the players and GM's hands completely. (This is my opinion)
While I don't know if they are taking it this far they are adding more rules to social encounter(with more dice rolling) then I think is good for what I think really doesn't need rules. Heck I usualy ignore the few rules that they have now. I mean if there is on 'sacred cow' they should kill is the NPC's reaction chart.
I also just don't like it because it further reduces characters to numbers on a sheet of paper...anyway it is probably the biggest concern I have mechanicaly about 4th edition.
Ok taht's it! you people are to smart fot me... from now on I'll keep quiet and do (mostly killing) whatever LK/KtM/KPoS tell me to...:embarrass
Sigh...I don't get the appeal Lord Karsus and Karsus the Mad have....
From one of the Playtesters blogs
Social encounters. For those who don't just want to RP such things without some mechanical impact, the game has rules for non-combat encounters. The example given was social interaction. Unlike 3E, where negotiation amounts to a single Diplomacy check, it's treated almost like a combat in 4E. I make a skill check, but I also tell the DM what/how I'm doing. The opponent responds with behavior (and a check) of his own. I counter with a new check, and new words. And so forth
And from David Noonans Blog
And out comes a new iteration of our social challenge rules. We extracted a ton of useful data out of the test, and I'll probably spend the rest of the morning typing that up for my colleagues and messing with some the rules. But I can share some broad outlines with you.
1) I had perfect attendance at my table last night: 7 PCs, plus the dragon, plus the lich. A truly participatory social challenge at a table that big is going to be chaotic no matter how you structure it. Or at least you can't come up with rules that muzzle my players.
2) There was a lot of variety in both the mechanical techniques used (the checks/rolls/etc.) and the actual table dialogue. That's a pretty high priority, so it was good to see it emerge in actual play. But my table is predisposed to show those behaviors, so I can't see anything more definite than "it's a good system for people who throw themselves into that play style wholeheartedly."
3) The system we were testing involves skill checks (big surprise, huh?). One of the things I found fascinating was that some players preferred to deliver their dialogue, then roll the skill check and report the result. Others preferred to roll the skill check first, then deliver dialogue that matched their result (good or bad). The system works either way, so I might just make it explicit that you can "roll, then talk" or "talk, then roll."
4) There is a totally valid D&D playstyle that haaaaates the idea of social interactions being resolved with a die roll. This system should work for that playstyle, too, once you flip a few switches. That just isn't the playstyle we were testing last night.
The upshot? We had about 20 minutes of great dialogue at the table, then the lich was sufficiently convinced that the dragon was dangerously insane that he cautiously aided the PCs in attacking the dragon. Of course the lich turned on the PCs as the dragon fight was winding down. But the social challenge mattered, because the PCs were able to fight the dragon (with a little help), then fight the lich. That sure beats fighting dragon + lich.
Interpret that how you choose, I choose to interpret it as something I want nothing to do with, don't need and see no reason for making rules for in the first place. Most telling though is the first lineof the playtester quote. For those who don't want to RP
If the option of allowing evil and neutral gold dragons in core means that the game is now all about getting their “phat lootz”, are all evil monsters in your game for this same purpose also?
No, I run games that don't rely on "phat lootz" or any other variation of that horrid ideaand people I play with actually get by without being more blinding than the sun whenever someone cast detect magic. That and anyone who uses the term "phat lootz" or any leetspeak in general gets a 4-sider between the eyes (or one of the two 8 ball sized 30 siders I hae if I'm being real cranky)
As surprising as it may be to you, some folks actually use monsters as antagonists, eschew the wealth by level abomination, propel an actual story forward and actually RP without dice or reducing to you walk into a ten by ten oom with 5 orcs roll for initiative.
Strange as it may seem to you, and from your comments I've read it must, monsters actually have lives and an exitance outside of fricken combat with the PC's
Sigh...I don't get the appeal Lord Karsus and Karsus the Mad have....
-You could always join the Kult of Karsus. You'll then gets lots of networking, plus health and dental coverage.
From what I understand and interpret of it from the blog things and other statements I've read...
-Hmm. From what I got from that first one, they're optional rules. "For those who don't just want to RP...", ie. it's for those who don't want to RP. Those who do can just ignore said rules.
Dunno... feels almost like they're encouraging sloppy DMing to me.
-Well, technically, free-form roleplaying is sloppy, as there are no set rules, formula, and so on. They're really cleaning it up, giving everything a set, precise formula. :P
-But, I know what you mean. Think of it like this: The federal government (WotC) is consolidating power, taking it from the states (individual DMs who are beholden to WotC for products, etc.).
Though I'd argue about the free-form being sloppy, since it rather puts the RP into RPG. ;)
I'm a rather ferverent supporter of the idea of States' Rights. Can't say I've seen much support for the idea from either party of late though.
-As the United States is a federal republic, where all powers not specifically delegated to the federal government is delegated to the individual states, the states are always going to have more relative power to do what they want than the federal government. When Republicans are in power, the power shifts moreso to the states, as Republicans are more against powerful, centralized governments than Democrats, though Democrats also maintain powerful state governments- just a little more powerful federal government as well.
-Personally, I'd like to see a federal government with more power than the states, but that's just me. That'd solve problems such as illegal immigrants getting licenses in places where they are easier to obtain (legally or illegally), and then permanently going somewhere else, or having strict gun laws in one place, and lax laws in other places, and so on. But, that's neither here nor there.
-That D&D/Government comparison was a good one.
Though I'd argue about the free-form being sloppy, since it rather puts the RP into RPG. ;)
-What I meant about it being sloppy is that it isn't always going to be uniform, intentional or not. During one session, you might give a player a +1 bonus to his CHA skills, for whatever reasons. Another time, forgetting about that first precident, you might give the same character a +2 bonus to his CHA skills, for exatly the same reasons. I'm not supporting or denouncing either "Free-Form" role-playing or this new "Social Combat" system right now, but the latter is certainly more uniform, systematic and..."lawful" than the former.
As to free-form... I don't think I ever do it with dice rolls... usually my group handles it with... acting I guess would describe it, for lack of a better way to put it. Guess we're all frustrated actors in our own rights come to think of it... a weird hybrid between tabletop and live-action I guess. :D
The dryads natural form is it is brute force form...which sorta just kicks the mythological and the D&D dryad right in the teeth. And again it turns a encounter that is subtle and more RP related to hack n' slash...I just don't like that much.
This, I think, is one of the fears that I have regarding many of the overall 4e changes - the push to simplify and streamline the game, and why I think many people may be coming up with the connection to WoW/MMOs. The Metallic Dragon issue reminds me as well, because those who are read up on the lore of Warcraft know that in that world, most Dragons, aside from Black, are if not good, certainly not inherently evil.
But that doesn't stop players in WoW from killing them and taking their stuff.
I'm not certain this is the mentality WotC is trying to accomodate, but I can certainly see why some would be inclined to think so.
I don't like the idea of structured social 'combat' encounter rules either, but to be fair, David Noonan is being quoted out of context. He didn't say the rules were for people who didn't want to roleplay. He said:
"For those who don't just want to RP such things without some mechanical impact"
The implication then is that this is an alternative to freeform roleplay without game mechanics support, for those who want roleplay backed up with game mechanics support. Personally, I think that game mechanics can become all too hindering when it comes to social interactions, especially if overused - but to each their own I suppose.
-I've never played WoW before, so...Does the game basically revolve around simply killing people, and taking their stuff?
Hey, what's the point in something if you can't kill it and take it's stuff. That reminds me, does anyone know where I can get the stats for Ao? Also, what kind of phat lootz does he have?
Sigh...I don't get the appeal Lord Karsus and Karsus the Mad have....
Obviously...LK= POWER!!!!!:evillaugh Unlimited POWER!!!!!!!:evillaugh (and good health and Dental..)
Johnkretzer=
*total Silence*...:PLook, someone's got to run on a hamster wheel to power the Karsii. I nominate you, Sol.
-No, that's Blibbering Humdinging, hamster that he is.
-Don't listen to KPoS. He's a sham.
So he isn't the third aspect and tossing oh say Shade at him is not against my truce with you?
So he isn't the third aspect and tossing oh say Shade at him is not against my truce with you?
-No on both counts. Enjoy.
LK= POWER!!!!!:evillaugh Unlimited POWER!!!!!!!:evillaugh (and good health and Dental..)
Johnkretzer=
The Karsus's offer dental? Do you get paid vacation too?
How do I apply? :DMost telling though is the first lineof the playtester quote. For those who don't want to RP
As mentioned already, you're quoting out of context. By providing rules for social encounters, you're allowing players who otherwise wouldn't be as good with words to play a suave, diplomatic character.
As surprising as it may be to you, some folks actually use monsters as antagonists, eschew the wealth by level abomination, propel an actual story forward and actually RP without dice or reducing to you walk into a ten by ten oom with 5 orcs roll for initiative.
Strange as it may seem to you, and from your comments I've read it must, monsters actually have lives and an exitance outside of fricken combat with the PC's
No, it isn't surprising to me. That's what I do.
a paladin has a defination outsider of it's historical role. They are using the word wrong. A druid has a historical role only as a priest of the old celtic relgion. Beyond that it doesn't exist till D&D came almong and modified it.
I mean other divine servant aren't a bad idea they have existed in some form since 1st edition. I just think they shouldn't be called paladins.
Like it or not, paladin in D&D, just like druid, wizard, sorcerer, rogue, monk, samurai, ninja, ranger, and warlock can mean different things than what the real world counterpart or word generally mean. A paladin in D&D is a divine warrior, more often than not good. The 4e paladin merges the idea of a blackguard into the paladin class (and probably that "more lawful than good" paladin archetype too).
I never felty limited by monsters 'roles' before. Hey maybe I can see there point a little if they said that dragons will stop being color coded. No instead it was just the metalic dragons that are changing from what they said.
They're basically taking the Eberron approach, or possibly something closer to how FR does it.
So we should remove overlap? Then I guess we can limit the Monster manuel to about 20 monsters. Heck we can only have one dragon type then. Also probably the nymph will have a brute force combat form too. And we are getting the MM 1 a year...it has lots of pages. You do know they are trying very hard to get rid of the concept of core only with this edition right?
Hyperbole again. Multiple dragon types are here to stay - Dungeons & Dragons. You know nothing of the 4e nymph, but since monster overlap is being dramatically reduced in the MM(1), we can pretty safely assume that the nymph isn't another dryad... as it is in 3e.
All changes have a good side and a bad side. These changes seem to me leaning very heavily to the bad side. Though rather a change is good or bad is completely subjective.
This change is good.
There is a degree of moral ambiguity in my games. PCs and NPCs can break stereotypes. Good creatures can be evil and evil creature can be good. I don't really care about the alignment change in dragons or that the dryad turned into a forest "tank" to get beat on. I just believe that the motive behind the changes is to turn the MM into a list of "cool" things hack-n-slash players can kill. Kinda the same way the Magic Item Comp is a list of "cool" things hack-n-slash players can get.
Cool is good. I want my D&D games to feel cool. Fun and exciting. I don't like games where the only purpose - no character interaction, frail plot - is to kill monsters - that's why I find WoW boring (without RP). However, the MMs pretty much are big lists of things to kill. That's the game's basic function because, in the end, D&D is a RPG about combat, i.e., killing. Wrapped in a fancy package; the plot, the characters, the interaction, etc.
Logic ruins your argument here. There are very few "beautiful woman fey" in the MM, but there are many big scary "tank" creatures in the MM that can be encountered in the forest. The change in the dryad means that the MM has less variety not more.
There are very few "fey tanks" in the MM.
However, these roleplayers are the people like us - and are the sort who are here grumbling about these changes, not the sort of people who are off playing for more simple reasons, aren't bothering to read the quest storyline text, the game background lore and history, et cetera. It's this larger group that seems to be the target of the new WotC focus (according to this line of thinking anyway) - the ones who don't care that the Dragons were charged with the protection of the world by the Titans, and that the Blue Dragonflight was charged with overseeing Magic (a simplification, but anyway), so that maybe there's a reason the blue dragon Azuregos is guarding those magic items...
Again, not always the case - my Blood Elf hunter outright refuses to even fight (let alone kill) High Elves, since she still considers herself one, and turns down every quest that would even involve possible conflict with the High Elves that remain part of the Alliance. And, yes, there's quite a long story to her... so to respond to your "I find WoW boring", Mula, it's what you make of it.
Anyway, apologies for deviating a little from the subject.
I don't like the idea of structured social 'combat' encounter rules either, but to be fair, David Noonan is being quoted out of context. He didn't say the rules were for people who didn't want to roleplay. He said:
"For those who don't just want to RP such things without some mechanical impact"
He didn't say that, one of the playtesters did. Hence the two seperate quotes. So you're both wrong, I didn't take anyone out of context. My comment about the first line being telling was like what Stigger said. That their encouraging lazyiness and going against roleplaying. Its a crutch.
Seriously, are you actually saying that a person not good with words can't play a diplomat without dice being rolled. The player is not the character so a player not being good with words doesnt reflect what his/her character can do. Besides that I don't know about you but no one in the games I play speak english or any other real world language (The characters, obviously not talking about the players here. ) so its not as if its going to be a strict translation from what the player says to what his orc says in the game. Anyone who forces that much stringency on their players (the DM's that if you say it at the table it gets said in the game) you got problems all on your own.
Dice rolls are just unnescessary. Hell look at those LARP freaks. you don't see them carrying arund dice when they're pretending to be vampires just to talk to each other.
Like it or not, paladin in D&D, just like druid, wizard, sorcerer, rogue, monk, samurai, ninja, ranger, and warlock can mean different things than what the real world counterpart or word generally mean. A paladin in D&D is a divine warrior, more often than not good. The 4e paladin merges the idea of a blackguard into the paladin class (and probably that "more lawful than good" paladin archetype too).
Um...No. If you change what they mean in the game you erase the reason why they were put into the game from the real world influences in the first place. People arent going to watch Heaven and Earth or Ran and then rush off to play a wizard in their games and if all the sudden in 4E a samurai was a guy in robes throwing fireballs around and thats it, then you have a problem.
In the real world a Samurai is a social caste so a wizard samurai while odd would be possible. In Game terms, its been defined for over 20 fricken years as the warrior with the full daisho, the colorful lamellar armor.
a paladin is not more often than no good.a paladin IS GOOD PERIOD.Waaay back to its first introduction to the game where it was based on real world archtype. But the real world archtype doesnt enter in when even still, by historical GAME references its still the same thing. And every game since then (with the exception of apprently Warcraft which I didnt know paladins could be evil there) has had Paladins as GOOD DIVINE WARRIORS. Even non D&D games that have paladins. Its liek what one of the designers said in one of their blog thingies. Everyone, even non gamers know what a Lawful Good Paladin is. The term is to set, to defined to change it to mean anything else. It would be like renaming the sun Moon and the Moon into Mars. Sure you can do it but its not going to make sense and its going to go against every bit of definition the whole world has known for who knows how long. Hell they'd be better off using a Dr. Suess naming theme and have level 12 Moss covered three handled family grudunza's running around.
You're acting like the real world perspective is the only thing people have a problem with when its actually pretty doubtful that the vast majority of people even know the historical basis of the Paladin. In game terms, a PAladin cannot EVER be evil or he's guesswhat, not a paladin. There is to much in the name for it to be anything else.
There was no outcry when it went from Magic-user to Mage to Wizard because aside from Magic User being somewhat silly considering the other two terms arent exactly new, they all mean the same thing. A priest and a cleric are the same thing, a Thief and a rogue (still don't understand why they changed this when the rogue still gets pigeonholed into being a thief anyways) is still the same thing. A paladin of Tyr and a Paladin of Asmodeus or Bane is not the same thing. One is an actual paladin, the other is not.
And cool is not good anymore. Cool, awesome, rockin, and everything else (like the paladin) has been subsumed by people who need to look at a thesaurus once in a while or at best take an actual Marketting course at the local community college. Cool is infantile buzzwords said by people who should know better. Its a word they use when they either don't know what to say or don't have anything else to say about it. Its as useful here as it would be on some of those prescription drug commercials where after they list 5 minutes of possible sideeffects for asprin they tell you but thats alright, its Cool. This new Tylenol is rockin despite the fact that it potentially causes your kidneys to explode.
Also, I seriously doubt WotC sees repetitive monsters as a problem (if it is one), as it means they have more content to fill books up with...and then sell. Obviously, WotC isn't content to wrap the entire game up in only a few books.
Sorry Mula, but I don't get your point about "monster overlap". If there really is a such a thing, I don't think dryads are such a huge offender here, because I doubt the concept of a beautiful, usually benevolent anthropomorphic fey creature is overused any more than, say, ugly, low-level goblinoids who live in tribes and like to harry adventurers, travelers, and all other sorts of people.
Also, I seriously doubt WotC sees repetitive monsters as a problem (if it is one), as it means they have more content to fill books up with...and then sell. Obviously, WotC isn't content to wrap the entire game up in only a few books.
That and I seem to recall from somewhere, might have to try and hunt that down again, where they want to actually go the way of having multiple entries for the same creture type ala Orc, Orc Archer, Orc Skirmisher, Orc with pointy stick, etc etc.
Its possible I'm misremembering something though.
Like it or not, paladin in D&D, just like druid, wizard, sorcerer, rogue, monk, samurai, ninja, ranger, and warlock can mean different things than what the real world counterpart or word generally mean. A paladin in D&D is a divine warrior, more often than not good. The 4e paladin merges the idea of a blackguard into the paladin class (and probably that "more lawful than good" paladin archetype too).
Why not leave them separate...I mean they are separating out necromancers and illusionists(and perhaps others) from wizards.
Also just about every class you mentioned exept druid are what the class says they are. And druid is pretty much remaining what D&D has defined them as...so why change paladins?
They're basically taking the Eberron approach, or possibly something closer to how FR does it.
I would believe that except for the fact that they said metalic and not just dragons. Also they didn't say a dragon can be however you want them...they described a specific pattern of behavoir for the aforementioned dragon.
Trust me if they said something to the effect that dragons will no longer be color coded I would be completely behind this change...but that isn't what they said.
Hyperbole again. Multiple dragon types are here to stay - Dungeons & Dragons. You know nothing of the 4e nymph, but since monster overlap is being dramatically reduced in the MM(1), we can pretty safely assume that the nymph isn't another dryad... as it is in 3e.
And to me saying the nymph is just another dryad in 3e is a hyperbole as I see vast difference in the two creatures...
Also I was just taking you desire for less overlap in a book that will contain multiple volumes( remember 1 a year) and taking up 'limited space'(even though with the new format I think they said they are going to have double the number of monsters) to a ridiculous extreme because I find it silly to think a book that is going to contain double the monsters that the 3rd edition version had is not going to have alot of overlap...not to mention they are going to publish more MM then they have ever done before(assuming that 4th edition is going to last longer then 5 years). So what exactly is this limition on space that you see? I doubt people use every monster already...heck there was monsters from 1st edition MM that I never used and I had much longer to work them in.
This change is good.
This is not a arguement...this is a opinion. I will say that I have so far in my opinion have a very bad feeling and vibe from 4th edition. If you are going to keep saying these changes are good please just put in 'in my opinion' because that is all it is.
That and I seem to recall from somewhere, might have to try and hunt that down again, where they want to actually go the way of having multiple entries for the same creture type ala Orc, Orc Archer, Orc Skirmisher, Orc with pointy stick, etc etc.
Its possible I'm misremembering something though.
And let's not forget repetitive types of classes (base and prestige) and repetitive feats. My point is that WotC doesn't seem averse to "filling in all the cracks", no matter how redundant it gets. They are in the business of selling books after all--more monsters, more classes, more spells and more rules all mean more books that gamers buy.
I don't like the idea of structured social 'combat' encounter rules either, but to be fair, David Noonan is being quoted out of context. He didn't say the rules were for people who didn't want to roleplay. He said:
"For those who don't just want to RP such things without some mechanical impact"
The implication then is that this is an alternative to freeform roleplay without game mechanics support, for those who want roleplay backed up with game mechanics support. Personally, I think that game mechanics can become all too hindering when it comes to social interactions, especially if overused - but to each their own I suppose.
I agree with you it sounds like a easy mechanic to ignore...but this has a couple of negative effects.
1) They will be whole sections of the rule books that will be useless to people like me and Stigger who wouldn't use it. So why convert...true I am starting to think they really don't care if the old fans convert or believe(I think wrongly) that over time people will eventualy convert to 4th edition like they did with 3rd.
2) It will separate D&D players more. I think it is bad for the game to do this...
And let's not forget repetitive types of classes (base and prestige) and repetitive feats. My point is that WotC doesn't seem averse to "filling in all the cracks", no matter how redundant it gets. They are in the business of selling books after all--more monsters, more classes, more spells and more rules all mean more books that gamers buy.
OH don't get me started on Prestige Classes. Feats and spells I can handle, especially the spells. I love spells, I one day hope to create a big file with all the spells ever created for the game, but prestige classes *shudder*
I like Prestige Classes, or I should specify I like the original intent behind them not what they've turned into. Prestige Classes are supposed to be world specific and relate to specific groups that you cant take a level in unless you belong to that group. Now they're jsut another munchkin outlet it seems. They arent Prestigious anymore they're generic and mundane.
The ones in the DMG are fine, so are the ones in the Forgotten Realms and Ebberon Campaign setting books becasue they still fit the original intended use. Everything else.....just a deluge of horrific and poorly thought out concepts to get more powers and magic into every single character in the world.
I agree with you it sounds like a easy mechanic to ignore...but this has a couple of negative effects.
1) They will be whole sections of the rule books that will be useless to people like me and Stigger who wouldn't use it. So why convert...true I am starting to think they really don't care if the old fans convert or believe(I think wrongly) that over time people will eventualy convert to 4th edition like they did with 3rd.
2) It will separate D&D players more. I think it is bad for the game to do this...
Well thats like Psionic rules. I have no use for psionics in my games. Just a personal thing as they seem to grounded in Sci-fi than fantasy to me so any Psionic Handbook or Psionic rules are superfluous to me.
That being said I don't see an overly large section (at least I hope not) or even whole books dedicated to social interaction when the trend seems to be towards getting rid of anything in the rules that isnt directly related to combat.
I do think they are trying to encourage some sort of role playing with a Social challenge system but I personally see it having the opposite effect and encouraging metagaming in the long run despite what they're trying to do with it. I could be wrong and they might really be trying to make everything codified and take all thought out of the game and out of the DM or players hands and into dice, but I really don't see that as being an actual goal of theirs. ....though it might be the goal of the brain slugs attached to their heads.
As mentioned already, you're quoting out of context. By providing rules for social encounters, you're allowing players who otherwise wouldn't be as good with words to play a suave, diplomatic character.
I see this arguement for more rules on social siturations so many times and find it lacking.
1) You really don't have to be very good with words to play a sauve, diplomatic character..why? Because it is very unlikely that your DM is a trained diplomat who you need to use the height of eloquence. Also most good DMs would cut such a player some slack...if not then haveing rules will not change the situration at all...as a bad DM will just roll behind a screen and says you loose.
2) Being a very shy person with a speech impediment actualy having to RP though social situration and not hide behind dice has helped me became more vocal and and more social. I think one of the areas that this game does help people will fall to the wayside with rules regarding social situration. I know you can still RP(and DMs can give mods. for good RP) but most people who aren't strong in a area will take the easy way out and just roll a die. It is just human nature.
LK= POWER!!!!!:evillaugh Unlimited POWER!!!!!!!:evillaugh (and good health and Dental..)
Johnkretzer=
Ah you don't know my power...yet. One day soon the world will know it!!!!!:evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh
...yeah I am pretty much average guy....but hey I can fix your car(well in the near future) for the cost of the parts...can any of the Karsus do that?
-You could always join the Kult of Karsus. You'll then gets lots of networking, plus health and dental coverage.
Nah that is alright I rather keep my identity...or atleast follow a hot goddess...;)
But here is a idea if you are trying to drum up support. You should have your servants and followers have in their sig a statement that states:
' Proud member of the Kult of Karsus. Be a apart of something greater. Get networking benefits and health care. Want to join? Ask me how.'
I admitt it is a bit rough but I am sure between the two(or three) Karsus could clean it up...
Excuse me, but I'm kinda new to the boards, and don't feel like digging through 40 pages to get the info that intrigued me. Is there anywhere I could look up the condensed info on the changes to come in the 4th ed?? I' especially interested in that social combat thing. Thanks in advance.
I would love to, but all related to 4E is Icky and I wont touch it
Ah you don't know my power...yet. One day soon the world will know it!!!!!:evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh
...yeah I am pretty much average guy....but hey I can fix your car(well in the near future) for the cost of the parts...can any of the Karsus do that?
Hello... I don't need a car, I have WINGS!!! :angelhide ALL I need I have (wings, +5 Ubbergeek Bane/Flamming Brust GreatSword AND th ebest Sports Bra THAT MONEY CAN BUY!!!) not to mention full Dental coverage :D
I agree with you it sounds like a easy mechanic to ignore...but this has a couple of negative effects.
1) They will be whole sections of the rule books that will be useless to people like me and Stigger who wouldn't use it. So why convert...true I am starting to think they really don't care if the old fans convert or believe(I think wrongly) that over time people will eventualy convert to 4th edition like they did with 3rd.
I agree with you. For me, it will likely be wasted space, because it's something I won't use. However, it's not like this is really anything new, whether it be for optional rules that we didn't use, large superfluous artwork, or the infamous pages of statblocks for Deities in Faiths and Pantheons. ;)
I also get the same feeling. The responses of the design team, from what I have seen, have given me the impression that they either do not care about the old fans, or expect that we will eventually give in and go along with things anyway, whether it be in terms of 4th Edition itself, or the changes to the Realms.
Incidentally, it is the latter that bothers me far more than the former - changes to the ruleset are troublesome, but I approach the Realms as both a player of the D&D game and a reader of the novels. It is from both of these standpoints that I am dismayed at what is happening to the universe and the characters within it - what the authors that I had previously trusted and enjoyed reading are apparently doing, and plan to do, to it.
2) It will separate D&D players more. I think it is bad for the game to do this...
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Are you referring to some of the computer based features? I honestly haven't looked at those, though having played D&D almost solely via Neverwinter Nights for the past four years, due to being stuck overseas on military deployment, roleplaying via computer is a challenge I'm used to.
. That's the game's basic function because, in the end, D&D is a RPG about combat, i.e., killing. Wrapped in a fancy package; the plot, the characters, the interaction, etc.
Wow, well I can see why you like the 4E rules if that's how you see D&D. I've had entire adventures, entire dungeon crawls, several gaming sessions in a row that have involved absolutely no combat. To a lot of players, combat is the least common experience of D&D. If you have a DM who can only make the game interesting by having you slaughter a bunch of npcs, then I'd advise you check out some other groups.
Sure, combat is going to play a factor in D&D, and a majority of the statistics you find in the manuals will pertain to combat, but that doesn't make the game about combat. Some of the most enjoyable sessions I've had were entirely social, and I think the best dungeon run I ever had was one that was a huge series of puzzles and traps... nothing to kill.
D&D is most definitely NOT an "RPG about combat," it's an RPG that has some combat involved... sometimes.
...can any of the Karsus do that?
-KtM is pretty handy. And, our third aspect, where ever he is, is a friggin' Beholder Mage.
Nah that is alright I rather keep my identity...or atleast follow a hot goddess...;)
-I'm pretty hot...No, not really...
Hello... I don't need a car, I have WINGS!!! :angelhide ALL I need I have (wings, +5 Ubbergeek Bane/Flamming Brust GreatSword AND th ebest Sports Bra THAT MONEY CAN BUY!!!) not to mention full Dental coverage :D
-You know, it never actually dawned on me that you are a she. Whoops. :embarrass
-You know, it never actually dawned on me that you are a she. Whoops. :embarrass
I'm not, is still a pretty good bra:embarrass
(I was talking about my "icon")
-I'm pretty hot...No, not really...
I am tho', see?
I'm not, is still a pretty good bra
(I was talking about my "icon")
Ahhh! Good thing to know I'm not the only one that likes such:D
Hello... I don't need a car, I have WINGS!!! :angelhide ALL I need I have (wings, +5 Ubbergeek Bane/Flamming Brust GreatSword AND th ebest Sports Bra THAT MONEY CAN BUY!!!) not to mention full Dental coverage :D
Well if we are talking about icons...I am soo powerful that there is no icon out there that can truely represent my uber powerness...
Well if we are talking about icons...I am soo powerful that there is no icon out there that can truely represent my uber powerness...
.....Clever....
Is "powerness" a word? (Fo reals)
.....Clever....
Is "powerness" a word? (Fo reals)
I don't know....well powerlessness is a word I can't find powerness in the dictionary...
See how powerful I am I invent words...:D
I am tho', see?
-Ah, you were so cute when you were little.
so to respond to your "I find WoW boring", Mula, it's what you make of it.
Yes, I know. Like I said, I find it boring without RP.
Grinding is hell and I won't spend my free time doing something I don't enjoy.Seriously, are you actually saying that a person not good with words can't play a diplomat without dice being rolled.
--
Dice rolls are just unnescessary. Hell look at those LARP freaks. you don't see them carrying arund dice when they're pretending to be vampires just to talk to each other.
It'll be hard for the shy, introverted player, but sure, it's possible. However, when that same player gets to roll to see how well his CHARACTER does it, it'll be more fun. Just because the player is an unassuming, quiet fella, doesn't mean his 18th-level diplomacy monster shouldn't be able to overcome most social challenges. Same as with characters who are focused on physical combat - we do roll to see who hits and misses. (LARP players roll nothing.)
The term is to set, to defined to change it to mean anything else. It would be like renaming the sun Moon and the Moon into Mars. Sure you can do it but its not going to make sense and its going to go against every bit of definition the whole world has known for who knows how long.
"Paladin" is a concept, the sun and the moon are physical objects that have been around foreva. Concepts and ideas and their definitions (especially something like paladin...) can change over time.
No matter what you feel about it, paladins in D&D can be non-good. They can be that in 3e, and they can be that in 4e. Deal.
Sorry Mula, but I don't get your point about "monster overlap". If there really is a such a thing, I don't think dryads are such a huge offender here, because I doubt the concept of a beautiful, usually benevolent anthropomorphic fey creature is overused any more than, say, ugly, low-level goblinoids who live in tribes and like to harry adventurers, travelers, and all other sorts of people.
Also, I seriously doubt WotC sees repetitive monsters as a problem (if it is one), as it means they have more content to fill books up with...and then sell. Obviously, WotC isn't content to wrap the entire game up in only a few books.
I'd claim that the pretty woodsy fey maiden is used a lot less frequently in D&D games than the more forward, aggressive and physically intimidating monster. We really don't have a "fey tank" in D&D - maybe the designers thought the new dryad could fill that role, or maybe something similar. Dryads are, after all, originally just one type of nymph. I really don't see the big fuss about it - one fairly infrequently used monster gets changed.
Maybe WotC actually wants to deliver a good product, and by reducing monster overlap, we're getting more bang for our buck.
And druid is pretty much remaining what D&D has defined them as...so why change paladins?
Why not change them? After all, by allowing a broader variety of paladins to appear in games, you're giving more options to both the players and the DM.
And to me saying the nymph is just another dryad in 3e is a hyperbole as I see vast difference in the two creatures...
Care to elaborate?
This is not a arguement...this is a opinion. I will say that I have so far in my opinion have a very bad feeling and vibe from 4th edition. If you are going to keep saying these changes are good please just put in 'in my opinion' because that is all it is.
I'm seeing plenty of opinions and speculation here, even without me contributing.
And let's not forget repetitive types of classes (base and prestige) and repetitive feats. My point is that WotC doesn't seem averse to "filling in all the cracks", no matter how redundant it gets. They are in the business of selling books after all--more monsters, more classes, more spells and more rules all mean more books that gamers buy.
How dare they try to make money...!
You know, you can just not buy stuff that you don't like.
OH don't get me started on Prestige Classes.
Don't buy the stuff you don't enjoy. It's very simple and works like a charm - even saves you money!
I do think they are trying to encourage some sort of role playing with a Social challenge system but I personally see it having the opposite effect and encouraging metagaming in the long run despite what they're trying to do with it. I could be wrong and they might really be trying to make everything codified and take all thought out of the game and out of the DM or players hands and into dice, but I really don't see that as being an actual goal of theirs. ....though it might be the goal of the brain slugs attached to their heads.
I think that adding good concrete rules for social interaction could very well increase the amount of social encounters because they will be easier to handle. When they're more solidly codified, they can be added to adventures with less hassle and can provide more meaningful results and rewards. How does making rules for social stuff take the game out of the DMs hands? Would combat be more enjoyable if you didn't roll any dice?
1) You really don't have to be very good with words to play a sauve, diplomatic character..why? Because it is very unlikely that your DM is a trained diplomat who you need to use the height of eloquence. Also most good DMs would cut such a player some slack...if not then haveing rules will not change the situration at all...as a bad DM will just roll behind a screen and says you loose.
How about a DM who'd like to have better rules for social interaction because he wants the player to enjoy playing that diplomat or scoundrel? The character could and will be better than the player, just as with swords and bows and spells - I don't make my players swing swords when they're attacking. Does that make me a lazy, bad DM? Hardly.
Wow, well I can see why you like the 4E rules if that's how you see D&D. I've had entire adventures, entire dungeon crawls, several gaming sessions in a row that have involved absolutely no combat. To a lot of players, combat is the least common experience of D&D. If you have a DM who can only make the game interesting by having you slaughter a bunch of npcs, then I'd advise you check out some other groups.
Don't worry, I'm doing just fine. You can make D&D pretty much anything you like as regards to combat, plot, and interaction, but when you strip it to its basics, you have a tactical battle RPG. Most aspects of D&D are geared towards combat: BAB, saves, the large majority of feats and spells. For non-combat stuff we have a few skills and a handful of low-level spells.
i gave up talking to Mula he goes againt the flow for the **** of it like "RPG about combat" is Either A Role PLaying Game OR aCOMBAT game. BTW "Super Dragon Ball Z Bodoukai XXVII FLASH Gold EX Plus Alpha 405 Preasure Points of Never Ending Misery Special Edition FROM HELL" came out last weak. You should give it a try Mula.
Sounds good.
I'd claim that the pretty woodsy fey maiden is used a lot less frequently in D&D games than the more forward, aggressive and physically intimidating monster. We really don't have a "fey tank" in D&D - maybe the designers thought the new dryad could fill that role, or maybe something similar. Dryads are, after all, originally just one type of nymph. I really don't see the big fuss about it - one fairly infrequently used monster gets changed.
Why do feys needs a tank? Also shouldn't that role be filled by fey that were meant to be tanks? Like Red Caps? Or the dozen of other fey that actualy are meant to fill that role. I mean heck stats on a Red Cap would be more bang of my buck. Also if you want to talk about the orginal myths well wouldn't the troll fit the role of 'fey tank' better? Or a Spriggan? I could go on...
Also you use Dryads infrequently that doesn't mean others don't. Please don't start thinking you represent some majority here because of your opinions.
Why not change them? After all, by allowing a broader variety of paladins to appear in games, you're giving more options to both the players and the DM.
Except options already exist. Why change them? Also as I pointed out the other classes are what they are defined by except druid which they had changed from the start...so why can't the paladin be what a paladin be defined as?
Also I'll ask again why break of illusionist and necromancers off from wizards? Why not do the same with Paladins?
Care to elaborate?
Sure for one thing there is power level difference between the two. Nymphs are more powerful then the dryad. Second they lend themselves to very different types of encounters as a dryad is restricted to a certain area due to her tree...a nymph doesn't have that limitions.
Also their interest are completely different...do read anything besides the stats for a monster? Or have you DMed or played before 3rd? I am asking because I really don't get how you can see them as the same creature.
I'm seeing plenty of opinions and speculation here, even without me contributing.
Not by me. I have read about all the favor changes and think they lend to a very different style of play then D&D used to be able to support. Sure it is a opinion but it isn't a uneducated one.
How about a DM who'd like to have better rules for social interaction because he wants the player to enjoy playing that diplomat or scoundrel? The character could and will be better than the player, just as with swords and bows and spells - I don't make my players swing swords when they're attacking. Does that make me a lazy, bad DM? Hardly.
No the reason I don't allow players to swing swords around is that it is very hard on the furniture, walls, ceiling other players, etc. I also don't make my players cast spells...
But speaking really doesn hurt anything and is something almost everybody can do with some skill...and the more they do ity the better they get.
Also my players enjoy playing the scondrel and the diplomat already without heavy rules system attached. And as a player I enjoy it because there aren't lots of rules attached to it.
Also I find it interesting you didn't answear the point that allowing players to hide behind will discourage RP. I mean sure these rules might encourage more 'social' encounters, but they will discourage RP.
Most aspects of D&D are geared towards combat: BAB, saves, the large majority of feats and spells. For non-combat stuff we have a few skills and a handful of low-level spells.
Which is (or was) one of the best aspects of the game in my opinion is that non-combat stuff was very light on the rules.
No matter what you feel about it, paladins in D&D can be non-good. They can be that in 3e, and they can be that in 4e. Deal.
-Uh, the PHB kinda states "Paladins must be Lawful Good", or else they lose their abilities.
"Paladin" is a concept, the sun and the moon are physical objects that have been around foreva. Concepts and ideas and their definitions (especially something like paladin...) can change over time.
No matter what you feel about it, paladins in D&D can be non-good. They can be that in 3e, and they can be that in 4e. Deal.
Uh huh. Show me in the Core books where it says Paladins can be anything but Lawful Good.
And thank god for WotC for redefining a title that has just been stagnant for oh maybe a thousand years historically and close to thirty years as far as D&D is concerned.
Being honorable and just and good isnt cool.
I'd claim that the pretty woodsy fey maiden is used a lot less frequently in D&D games than the more forward, aggressive and physically intimidating monster. We really don't have a "fey tank" in D&D - maybe the designers thought the new dryad could fill that role, or maybe something similar. Dryads are, after all, originally just one type of nymph. I really don't see the big fuss about it - one fairly infrequently used monster gets changed.
I'd love to see your proof to back up your claim that nymphs and dryads are infrequently used.
Maybe WotC actually wants to deliver a good product, and by reducing monster overlap, we're getting more bang for our buck.
And yet you inored the part of her post that mentioned the what is it up to now 5-6 races of goblinoids that pretty much are the exact same thing. How is that not monster overlap?
How dare they try to make money...!
You know, you can just not buy stuff that you don't like.
Wow, way to go. Can't come up with anything to say, pull this tired old thing out without even actually apparently reading what she said. Wow, you know, just wow. Falling back on the old "How dare they make money" schtick. And to top it off the old "Don't like it don't buy it" Nice rebuttal.Don't buy the stuff you don't enjoy. It's very simple and works like a charm - even saves you money!
Twice in a row. What, didn't actually read that part either. Just saw one part of the sentence and decieded to pull that out again huh. Go back and read the whole thing. And then go back and read every other post that you're justt skimming over.I think that adding good concrete rules for social interaction could very well increase the amount of social encounters because they will be easier to handle. When they're more solidly codified, they can be added to adventures with less hassle and can provide more meaningful results and rewards.
I'm sure it will spawn lots of social challenges. The roll your die and move on type.How does making rules for social stuff take the game out of the DMs hands? Would combat be more enjoyable if you didn't roll any dice?
Because having a table in a book telling me that if the player rolls this number the dragon is going to give them its hoarde and then give them piggyback rides. Regardless of what you say thats what its going to be used for. Granted most DM's would laugh and say no, but why don't you go over to the other boards here and see how a large portion feel about a DM that doesnt do what the rules say.How about a DM who'd like to have better rules for social interaction because he wants the player to enjoy playing that diplomat or scoundrel? The character could and will be better than the player, just as with swords and bows and spells - I don't make my players swing swords when they're attacking. Does that make me a lazy, bad DM? Hardly.
JohnKetzer already answered this up above...and its already been answered even before his most recent post. You just chose to ignore them and act like they didnt exist. Rewording something doesnt change the fact that you've used that already and its been answered by a few people already.Don't worry, I'm doing just fine. You can make D&D pretty much anything you like as regards to combat, plot, and interaction, but when you strip it to its basics, you have a tactical battle RPG. Most aspects of D&D are geared towards combat: BAB, saves, the large majority of feats and spells. For non-combat stuff we have a few skills and a handful of low-level spells.
See thats funny cause I always thought if you stripped it down to its basics you had a role playing game. A few non combat skills? All the skills are at the base non combat related. A handful of low level spells? So out of the literally thousands of spells out there, there are only a few low level spells that arent combat related.
You know the more I see of your posts the more I think you're just being contrary. Were I the less cynical type I'd think you might be playing devils advocate, but you've gone beyond that into the realm of cheerleader for everything that everyone is against or just doesnt like.
-KtM is pretty handy. And, our third aspect, where ever he is, is a friggin' Beholder Mage.
-I'm pretty hot...No, not really...
I get no love just because I'm a pawn of Shar.
Shar manipulated *us*. *We* always were suckers for the dark goddess types. I know *we* have a big ego and don't like being used as pawns, but come on LK and KtM give in to your dark side. Join with me. The three of us together, with our loyal cult members can rule the Forgotten Realms boards as pawns of Shar.:evillaugh
P.S. Don't read the fine print.;) :P
Still the same thing though. The PHB says Lawful Good where the 4E one won't.
And really, if those two variants are the 'options' he keeps harping on, how much of an option is it if its more restrictive than a Paladin itself. Its pretty easy not to commit murder in the course of a campaign and keep your Paladinhood. Try not once doing anything that can remotely be considered good. Well that nice Paladin of Slaughter (pictured as a dark elf of course) isnt really going to be a Paladin of Slaughter that long in your typical game is he. Not that either of the two evil paladin variants would be in a party because neither one can associate with good characters and both of their concepts are just reasons to wipe out the rest of the party.
Apparently the Blackguard wasn't evil enough or something. Had to have literal polar opposites.
Am surprised that there isnt a Druid variant in there that destroys nature.
Am surprised that there isnt a Druid variant in there that destroys nature.
It's a Druid prestige class.
It's a Druid prestige class.
Please tell me you're joking.
Please tell me you're joking.
He isn't...it is called a Blighter. It appeared in Masters of the Wild and was reprinted in Complete Divine. It was a class for fallen Druids for the most part. Think of it as a Drudic version of a Blackguard. It wasn't that bad of a PrC...for a NPC...
He isn't...it is called a Blighter. It appeared in Masters of the Wild and was reprinted in Complete Divine. It was a class for fallen Druids for the most part. Think of it as a Drudic version of a Blackguard. It wasn't that bad of a PrC...for a NPC...
Wow. Every time I think someone is making a bad joke to poke fun at 4e or the designers it turns out to be true.
He isn't...it is called a Blighter. It appeared in Masters of the Wild and was reprinted in Complete Divine. It was a class for fallen Druids for the most part. Think of it as a Drudic version of a Blackguard. It wasn't that bad of a PrC...for a NPC...
Just gotta have an evil version of everything don't they. I have Masters of the Wild too. Must have blocked that out when I tossed Tome and Blood across the room for telling players how to cheat in a sidebar.
And from looking it over just now it would make a great NPC because it has them as pretty much being insane as the reason for doing what they're doing. A player class......no.
Editted to add: Though with Druids always being strictly nuetral you don't really need an evil version of the Druid to make them an antagonist. I seem to recall Druids being all about Balance as well as nature. Wiping out a whole tribe of Goblins in a Druids forest is liable to annoy them just a tad.
Wow. Every time I think someone is making a bad joke to poke fun at 4e or the designers it turns out to be true.
Yeah but like the blackguard provided a evil alternative to paladin...Blighter did the same thing for Druids...
4e druids will probably be either those out to destroy nature or thosae out to preserve it.
Define normal human culture... ;)
One whose morality is not based on the effects of actions with thousands of years in mind, or a true consideration of the natural world. Before I am asked what a "true" consideration of the natural world is, I will attempt to explain. Some primitive cultures seem to live this way, but most of them seem to do so however because of an inability to create certain technologies which would allow them to bend nature to their will, rather than vice versa (agriculture, domestication, etc.) However, still I would concede a point on those cultures if someone wanted to push it. However, environmentalists that fly their jets to conventions and meetings where they decry global warming, or people that "care so much" about nature and animals that they call meat murder, could not be considered to have a "true" consideration of nature.
I get no love just because I'm a pawn of Shar.
Shar manipulated *us*. *We* always were suckers for the dark goddess types. I know *we* have a big ego and don't like being used as pawns, but come on LK and KtM give in to your dark side. Join with me. The three of us together, with our loyal cult members can rule the Forgotten Realms boards as pawns of Shar.:evillaugh
P.S. Don't read the fine print.;) :P
While I wouldn't hesitate to bow Shar down before me, I refuse to kneel
Karsus never bowed to deities before, he won't do it in the future. Anything that says otherwise is propaganda.
While I wouldn't hesitate to bow Shar down before me, I refuse to kneel
Karsus never bowed to deities before, he won't do it in the future. Anything that says otherwise is propaganda.
Personally, I see more of a Shar on her knees before Karsus image, if you know what I mean.
Personally, I see more of a Shar on her knees before Karsus image, if you know what I mean.
That's what I meant....
I like sadistic dominatrix goddesses....
One whose morality is not based on the effects of actions with thousands of years in mind, or a true consideration of the natural world. Before I am asked what a "true" consideration of the natural world is, I will attempt to explain. Some primitive cultures seem to live this way, but most of them seem to do so however because of an inability to create certain technologies which would allow them to bend nature to their will, rather than vice versa (agriculture, domestication, etc.) However, still I would concede a point on those cultures if someone wanted to push it. However, environmentalists that fly their jets to conventions and meetings where they decry global warming, or people that "care so much" about nature and animals that they call meat murder, could not be considered to have a "true" consideration of nature.
Sounds like a very modern take on it... I'd argue that there was no such thing as normal though, particularly where culture is concerned. It's varied throughout the ages to a radical degree, and is usually more influenced by terrain and climate than some objective 'standard', at least up until very recently... and even then, its pretty iffy. At best, 'normal' can be defined for a region, but not much else, at least the way I see it.
Sounds like a very modern take on it... I'd argue that there was no such thing as normal though, particularly where culture is concerned. It's varied throughout the ages to a radical degree, and is usually more influenced by terrain and climate than some objective 'standard', at least up until very recently... and even then, its pretty iffy. At best, 'normal' can be defined for a region, but not much else, at least the way I see it.
So how many human cultures do you know that would imitate the effect of having lifespans that exist for thousands of years? The moral culture and mind set of the elves and dragons are far from the human "norm," even if one doesn't define the "norm" as a specific culture. The point I was trying to make, was that humans are inherently drastically different from elves and dragons when it comes to their lifespans, and thus the cultures and moral outlooks inherent to the race will differ drastically, no matter how varied human cultures are. I would like to note that I did not define the "normal" human culture as what it was, but rather what it was not. I was not trying to say that one human culture was more normal than the next, but rather that all human cultures would be more normal (closely related) than the culture of the dragons.
How dare they try to make money...!
You know, you can just not buy stuff that you don't like.
Way to miss the point!
Yet again, you misread me. I never said there was anything wrong with trying to make money.
My point was that WotC probably sees "monster overlap" as something good for them. Got it? Or do I have to keep repeating myself?
Wow. Every time I think someone is making a bad joke to poke fun at 4e or the designers it turns out to be true.
Indeed.
A druid that destroys nature. Have I seen everything?Indeed.
Conceptually, the druid teases power from the natural world taking care not to take so much from any one thing as to damage it, and uses that power to aid nature. The blighter tears power from the natural world regardless of the damage it does and uses it for their own benefit. I'm not certain it works in the Realms as I can't imagine which deity would support this sort of thing, but it isn't presented as an FR prestige class anyway.
Why would Karsus like any deity? Or is this some new insight thing from actually achieving it I wonder...
I like anything that's both sadistic and dominating. Except for mindflayers, but those tentacles can be useful...
Indeed.
Wait...wouldn't that automatically make them become ex-druids
Ex-Druids
A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description).
I think "destroying nature" would be considered as ceasing to revere nature.
I like the idea. Not the "druid destroying nature" bit, but of a druid being corrupted to the point they cease being druids, without realizing it themselves, and continue on their misguided path.
This is why I get pretty upset when people go on and on about what's "natural" or not (undead, for example). Sure, lower level, Prime-centered Druids ignorant of the larger tapestry of the cosmology would ignorantly think such creatures to be unnatural, but I would rule they would grow out of that in time.
And I'm very much not a fan of Druids serving deities that overly represent one aspect of 'nature' for that aspect's benefit, rather than to uphold the balance. (So, there's no Druids of Talos, the Elemental Lords, etc. in my world.) But I've made these things pretty clear... I just like to complain about this. ;)
I like anything that's both sadistic and dominating. Except for mindflayers, but those tentacles can be useful...
Wait...wouldn't that automatically make them become ex-druids
I think "destroying nature" would be considered as ceasing to revere nature.
I like the idea. Not the "druid destroying nature" bit, but of a druid being corrupted to the point they cease being druids, without realizing it themselves, and continue on their misguided path.
Yeah one of the requirements is you have to be an ex-druid and already have lost all your powers. So its not really a Duidic Prestige Class anymore than a Blackguard is a Paladin Prestige Class.
I definately don't see any use for it as a PC class, for NPC's maybe but thats as far as I'd go with it. Mostly becasue it states pretty clearly to me that the Blighters are insane and somehow their wildshape and animal abilities turn into undead versions. Not sure I see the logic in an ex-druid turning into a dead wolf or skeletal bear but ok.
Its one of those classes that I look at and shake my head and say nooooo. See no need for an evil druidic type even if its a fallen druid.
How's THAT for an antihero situation?
Conceptually, the druid teases power from the natural world taking care not to take so much from any one thing as to damage it, and uses that power to aid nature. The blighter tears power from the natural world regardless of the damage it does and uses it for their own benefit. I'm not certain it works in the Realms as I can't imagine which deity would support this sort of thing, but it isn't presented as an FR prestige class anyway.
Moander and Talona come to mind
More importantly, to me, it propagates the stereotype that the opposite of natural is death/undeath/etc. They're just another part of the grand scheme of nature. I'd have no problem with a very super rare case of a "non-fallen" Druid taking up a Blighter-like role, but being perhaps devoted to using the powers to halt the tyrannical onslaught of a theocratic nation ruled by priests of a god of cancer, unrestrained growth, diseases, etc. (all linked in some way to Positive Energy).
How's THAT for an antihero situation?
Trouble would be, that A: The Blighter has to defoliate a good portion of forest to get his/her powers. Enough that nothing will ever grow there again unless a Hallow spell is cast and the whole area is re-seeded.
and B: Undead are actually against the natural order. Being dead is in balance, being undead isnt. You get one chance, no comming back. So technically even raising dead and ressurrection would be against the druidic philosophy. But undead especially because they're outside of the normal order of things.
that and even if it was a non fallen druid taking the class, the minute they charged up their powers they'd fall from grace so to speak. The whole deforestation to gain power kinda conflicts with revering nature.
Trouble would be, that A: The Blighter has to defoliate a good portion of forest to get his/her powers. Enough that nothing will ever grow there again unless a Hallow spell is cast and the whole area is re-seeded.
Which is a perfect way to stop rampaging, cancerous plant-creatures that just keep budding and spewing out new evil pollens and progeny.
and B: Undead are actually against the natural order. Being dead is in balance, being undead isnt. You get one chance, no comming back. So technically even raising dead and ressurrection would be against the druidic philosophy. But undead especially because they're outside of the normal order of things.
Now you're just being silly and sound like John Locke. Describe everything that is "the natural order" from a point of view that ALL Druids across the multiverse would agree on, please.
I never tire of people not actually being able to back up, with statistics, NPCs, or even logical jumps of reason, statements as to why undead are truly "unnatural," overall.
"Hey, that corpse isn't supposed to walk!"
"And waving that stick around shouldn't make fire appear out of thin air."
"Oh. Right."
that and even if it was a non fallen druid taking the class, the minute they charged up their powers they'd fall from grace so to speak. The whole deforestation to gain power kinda conflicts with revering nature.
No it doesn't. Predators kill living things to eat and survive (and gain power/strength - protein doesn't spontaneously produce!)
Such a Druid would have to play a very careful role, and in order to not fall from grace, would have to demonstrate a keen understanding of nature and balance, moreso than pretty much any standard hippie forest-wandering Druid.
Which is a perfect way to stop rampaging, cancerous plant-creatures that just keep budding and spewing out new evil pollens and progeny.
You could probably stretch it to that extent. The Class description however pretty much implies inflicting suffering and destruction on nature to gain power. But it would still actually fit (being that Blighters are mad) that the guy thought he was doing the right thing regardless of reality.
Now you're just being silly and sound like John Locke. Describe everything that is "the natural order" from a point of view that ALL Druids across the multiverse would agree on, please.
I never tire of people not actually being able to back up, with statistics, NPCs, or even logical jumps of reason, statements as to why undead are truly "unnatural," overall.
"Hey, that corpse isn't supposed to walk!"
"And waving that stick around shouldn't make fire appear out of thin air."
"Oh. Right."
You just actually proved the point right there. Its unnatural because a corpse isnt just going to sit up on its own. Corpses arent born, its not a race (that I know of but I'm sure somehwere out there someones created a race of dead guys).
Its unnatural because you need necromantic magic to create undead. The key word being create. A zombie isnt anymore natural than a house is. Its unnatural because it doesnt come from nature. It isnt born. It doesnt have a place in the ecosystem (well except maybe for maggots), it serves no purpose other than what it is given by the person that raised it. Thats why they're unnatural.
No it doesn't. Predators kill living things to eat and survive (and gain power/strength - protein doesn't spontaneously produce!)
That still fits into the balance of nature though. Predators kill to survive, and outside of semi-legendary lions in Africa they don't kill or destroy just for the hell of it. Besides its not a question of sustenance. A Blighter destroys to get the spells that a normal druid would already have.
Such a Druid would have to play a very careful role, and in order to not fall from grace, would have to demonstrate a keen understanding of nature and balance, moreso than pretty much any standard hippie forest-wandering Druid.
Eh, I still say he'd be somewhat deluded. Thinking he was doing the right thing despite what was really happening. But that would actually be fun to play if it was done right. The best villians don't see themselves as evil after all.
It could work the way you're talking about, maybe not exactly, and it may take alot of fiddling with it but its possible I suppose.
To me they are not really natural...I am just curious about your arguements about this.
I was not trying to say that one human culture was more normal than the next, but rather that all human cultures would be more normal (closely related) than the culture of the dragons.
Ah, missed that point completely. Can't say I'd disagree with you there then. Oops. :D
As to the whole Evil Druid thing, let us not forget the Talontar Blightlord from Unapproachable East, the Realms-Specific version of the Blighter.
Personally I'd say that undead were unnatural simply because they were outside of the cycles of life and death and served no real place within the ecology of the world. But really, whether they were natural or not would more depend on where you were rather than some absolute, which is what Dan's getting at I suspect... Bodak being a prime example of a 'natural' undead, at least as they were presented in the Planescape setting.
Now you're just being silly and sound like John Locke. Describe everything that is "the natural order" from a point of view that ALL Druids across the multiverse would agree on, please.
I never tire of people not actually being able to back up, with statistics, NPCs, or even logical jumps of reason, statements as to why undead are truly "unnatural," overall.
"Hey, that corpse isn't supposed to walk!"
"And waving that stick around shouldn't make fire appear out of thin air."
"Oh. Right."
-Here we go with the "Are Undead unnatural or not?" debate. While we're at it, let's ask "What happens to the fetus growing in pregnant men who polymorph into women and becomes pregant after he reverts to his true form?", "What happens if a Druid impregnates an animal while in Animal Form?", and the classic "Is a child created through magical means considered natural?" questions.
I am just curious Dan how are undead natural?
To me they are not really natural...I am just curious about your arguements about this.
Magic = Natural
Undead = Maguc
Undead = Natural
-Here we go with the "Are Undead unnatural or not?" debate. While we're at it, let's ask "What happens to the fetus growing in pregnant men who polymorph into women and becomes pregant after he reverts to his true form?"
I don't know, but that'd be pretty damned funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZZ7xFvu178
Faraer!
-Here we go with the "Are Undead unnatural or not?" debate. While we're at it, let's ask "What happens to the fetus growing in pregnant men who polymorph into women and becomes pregant after he reverts to his true form?", "What happens if a Druid impregnates an animal while in Animal Form?", and the classic "Is a child created through magical means considered natural?" questions.
__________________
There's times I wish you were adopted, and others I'm glad you're not....
I'm oddly tearing with other posts...I think it might have something to do with the massive onions we're using for providing you and the rest with food....
Faraer....
if that's what you expect from some beer...ummmm....
Dude...the Simbul can be a better woman....without drinks......
I really didn't find that funny....I'm not sure why those before, Stigger and Rino!, are laughing or calling it something it wasn't (enlighten me! Seriously!). You gave a link to a sad basement brat uptight about sex, that at first showed his pathetic brother? in a chair, and suddenly...with a cheap pause from the pc cam....showed his equally pathetic sister, who obviously desired to be his girlfriend....
was there a point? At the least it makes me embarassed to have anything to do with these forums...please tell me there was a bonus....
What? The dude that made the video really wanted to **** the guy, but couldn't privately say it, so settled with his underaged sister?
The stars above, due to censorship, mean a,n,a,l......
They also mean I'm screwing with anyone (monster or humanoid) that take me serious
What is natural is what we observe to happen. The foundation of physics was basically natural philosophers - in a way, the 'Wizards' of today evolved from the 'Druids' of archaic times. You don't hear physicists saying, "That's not natural!"
There's better terms to be used. Indigenous, native, abnormal.
Undead are not NATIVE to many places in the cosmology, but that doesn't make them unnatural. Their BEING there may be unnatural - but then you have to define, somehow, all of the characteristics of a system or environment before hand, extensively, to compare what is natural and what is not.
If anyone tells me that the spectres and wraiths in the Negative Energy Plane are "unnatural," then I'll laugh at them.
In short, I go with what LK said, mostly. The laws of physics - nature - in the D&D cosmology are 'magical' - they support undead existing, even if they're rare. But just because antimatter is far less frequently observed than matter, doesn't mean it's "unnatural" - it just means that it's improbable to observe it. Same with undeath.
Otherwise, Druids themselves would be trying to demolish everything. What is truly 'natural' to Realmspace is basically Shar's great darkness.
Undead are not NATIVE to many places in the cosmology, but that doesn't make them unnatural.
Sure it does.
Their BEING there may be unnatural - but then you have to define, somehow, all of the characteristics of a system or environment before hand, extensively, to compare what is natural and what is not.
No, you wouldn't have to at all.
The game rules help to simulate a fantasy environment. That's it.
The scope of what the rules need to represent is limited to what players and DMs use/interact with in the game.
Undead are there to scare players. Undead are there to help represent “things that should not be.”
Undead are there so we have monstrous things that break the cycle/rules of life. Moving ‘things’ that have come back when they shouldn’t have, to wreak havoc and bring about terror and destruction. Or spirits shorn from the after-life that try to find some glimmer of or connection with what was in their former lives, but that only bring sadness and fear in those the spirit haunts.
Are there exceptions? Yes, of course. Mirt has a more or less watchghost devoted to protecting him and his property, does he not?
From the omnipotent view of a gamer looking in on a campaign setting, Undead are one part of a multifaceted game world, so there’s familiarity with them on the part of the viewer and even a commonality in the viewer’s mind that lumps Undead in with all other monsters.
The scope and purpose of most undead in a campaign setting is up to each campaign setting.
I begin to wonder if undead haven’t lost their edge, so to speak. I can still bring some fear into the minds of my players when I run undead in our Realms Campaign, but I’m beginning to doubt if I could do that with newer players.
Uh huh. Show me in the Core books where it says Paladins can be anything but Lawful Good.
I didn't say core, and as you noticed already, there are variants in UA.
And thank god for WotC for redefining a title that has just been stagnant for oh maybe a thousand years historically and close to thirty years as far as D&D is concerned.
Like I said, a paladin in D&D doesn't necessarily equate to the real world example. For instance, the real world paladins would've been considered heretics would they have actually cast spells like paladins do in D&D. And so and so on.
I'd love to see your proof to back up your claim that nymphs and dryads are infrequently used.
Well, I can't really, but my gut feeling is that they indeed are FAIRLY infrequently used, compared to staples like humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and even dragons.
And yet you inored the part of her post that mentioned the what is it up to now 5-6 races of goblinoids that pretty much are the exact same thing. How is that not monster overlap?
Actually, I think you're referring to the entries that appeared in MM4. Due to feedback, WotC abandoned that approach in MM5, where instead we get unique versions of previously appeared monsters. Since they've done that and mentioned that MM5 is a preview of sorts how monsters in 4e will be designed, I doubt we'll see entries for regular orc fighters, clerics, etc that any DM can stat out.
Twice in a row. What, didn't actually read that part either. Just saw one part of the sentence and decieded to pull that out again huh. Go back and read the whole thing. And then go back and read every other post that you're justt skimming over.
If I remember your post right, you complained about prestige classes that were too general? Many people like them as they're more easily adaptable. If you don't like them and don't want to buy them, what's the problem?]
I'm sure it will spawn lots of social challenges. The roll your die and move on type.
Because having a table in a book telling me that if the player rolls this number the dragon is going to give them its hoarde and then give them piggyback rides. Regardless of what you say thats what its going to be used for. Granted most DM's would laugh and say no, but why don't you go over to the other boards here and see how a large portion feel about a DM that doesnt do what the rules say.
If it will work that way, the designers have merely copied the 3e rules. The rules that don't work well enough. Hopefully we'll receive better in 4e - social combat is supposed to be more complex than what we have now, i.e., roll a die and win or lose.
See thats funny cause I always thought if you stripped it down to its basics you had a role playing game. A few non combat skills? All the skills are at the base non combat related. A handful of low level spells? So out of the literally thousands of spells out there, there are only a few low level spells that arent combat related.
Yes, ultimately, D&D is all about combat. If you have a character who is lousy in combat in every way possible but has tons of different skills, the DM will struggle to provide proper challenges for that player because the game is designed for combat.
Why do feys needs a tank? Also shouldn't that role be filled by fey that were meant to be tanks? Like Red Caps? Or the dozen of other fey that actualy are meant to fill that role. I mean heck stats on a Red Cap would be more bang of my buck. Also if you want to talk about the orginal myths well wouldn't the troll fit the role of 'fey tank' better? Or a Spriggan? I could go on...
There's nothing wrong with changing the dryad into something more "tank-like", even if there were alternatives like red caps (dryad is a more evocative name). It's a mythological, made up creature that doesn't really exist - and D&D has never been faithful to their original inspirations but has molded and changed them. That original myth about nymphs I threw tried to illustrate the similarities between dryads and nymphs.
Except options already exist. Why change them? Also as I pointed out the other classes are what they are defined by except druid which they had changed from the start...so why can't the paladin be what a paladin be defined as?
Druids used to be something completely different in 1e, in 2e they were limited to True Neutral, and in 3e they're something else again. Same goes for bards, and even rangers - remember, they only used to be good. Change is not bad, it's okay to broaden the amount of options available.
Also I'll ask again why break of illusionist and necromancers off from wizards? Why not do the same with Paladins?
I don't know, they just chose not to? What's wrong with that?
Sure for one thing there is power level difference between the two. Nymphs are more powerful then the dryad. Second they lend themselves to very different types of encounters as a dryad is restricted to a certain area due to her tree...a nymph doesn't have that limitions.
Very different types of encounters? Both pretty elven looking maidens that use magic? Dryads protect their tree, nymphs protect a glade (or maybe a lake, or a mountaintop). Ultimately, WotC decided to change the dryad into something less nymph-like.
Also their interest are completely different...do read anything besides the stats for a monster? Or have you DMed or played before 3rd? I am asking because I really don't get how you can see them as the same creature.
I don't see them as the same creature, not at all, but I'm also not against changing the dryad so as to emphasize the role the nymph plays.
No the reason I don't allow players to swing swords around is that it is very hard on the furniture, walls, ceiling other players, etc. I also don't make my players cast spells...
But speaking really doesn hurt anything and is something almost everybody can do with some skill...and the more they do ity the better they get.
My preferred method when DMing is both speaking and rolling dice - however, you don't roll dice every single time you open your mouth. Social rules are used for challenges, just like combat.
Also my players enjoy playing the scondrel and the diplomat already without heavy rules system attached. And as a player I enjoy it because there aren't lots of rules attached to it.
Part of why I prefer dice with social stuff is because I simply feel that it's unfair if the naturally good with words player is better at that stuff than the shyer one - after all, in all other aspects, the characters start out as equals.
Also I find it interesting you didn't answear the point that allowing players to hide behind will discourage RP. I mean sure these rules might encourage more 'social' encounters, but they will discourage RP.
Sorry, like I said to Sir_Shadow, I only have a limited amount of time I can spend replying to so many posts. Good social encounter rules won't discourage RP - the ones we have in 3e can do that, because Diplomacy is tied to a single die roll, and that's it. Look at Bluff, for example: you get bonuses and penalties based on what you actually say. That's how the rules in 4e should work, or something close to it.
Way to miss the point!
Yet again, you misread me. I never said there was anything wrong with trying to make money.
My point was that WotC probably sees "monster overlap" as something good for them. Got it? Or do I have to keep repeating myself?
Sorry, I did misread your post.
I read it so fast that I missed the point. Sorry again. (Don't have to be so rude about it though...)Well, everything we've heard about "monster overlap" in 4e is that they're trying to reduce it (at least in the 1st MM), and judging by stuff we've seen, they're actually trying to do that.
Its one of those classes that I look at and shake my head and say nooooo. See no need for an evil druidic type even if its a fallen druid.
How about a druid that embodies the destructive, merciless side of nature?
I think people here are getting terminology confused.
What is natural is what we observe to happen. The foundation of physics was basically natural philosophers - in a way, the 'Wizards' of today evolved from the 'Druids' of archaic times. You don't hear physicists saying, "That's not natural!"
There's better terms to be used. Indigenous, native, abnormal.
Undead are not NATIVE to many places in the cosmology, but that doesn't make them unnatural. Their BEING there may be unnatural - but then you have to define, somehow, all of the characteristics of a system or environment before hand, extensively, to compare what is natural and what is not.
If anyone tells me that the spectres and wraiths in the Negative Energy Plane are "unnatural," then I'll laugh at them.
In short, I go with what LK said, mostly. The laws of physics - nature - in the D&D cosmology are 'magical' - they support undead existing, even if they're rare. But just because antimatter is far less frequently observed than matter, doesn't mean it's "unnatural" - it just means that it's improbable to observe it. Same with undeath.
Otherwise, Druids themselves would be trying to demolish everything. What is truly 'natural' to Realmspace is basically Shar's great darkness.
Well I must respectively disagree on this with you, Dan. But the main point I think is the what Balance the druid is protecting. But I'll think I'll go along with your your defination and view on what a Druid is.
The universe is not a conscience enity...it has no will to allow or disallow anything. Just because you can do something in one area doesn't mean it is alright in all areas. I mean if that was the case the way you have druids they would be trying to bring large amounts of negative energy to the positive plane and vice a versa. And try to bring everything to a balance...which would actualy disrupt that balance. How can you balance things out if everything is the same? Thewn there wouldn't be a balance.
Here is why I think druids on the prime material plane would fight the undead to near extinction is because their mere presence does disrupt the natural balance between life and death on a prime material world. Unlike life magic and the various raise dead spells these offer a minor tipping on the scale and merely delay the inevitable. The undead are a permant aberration for a prime material world's balance. A weigfht or a vampire or anyother undead that constantly make spawn will not die of old age...they will not stop producing more things that will continue to create more things, etc. that will continue to disrupt the balance. Just because Druids gain insight to the greater whole doesn't mean they can just abandon the balance of a world.
Sure is it possible for a undead creaturew like a vampire to be ignored by the druids if he creates very few spawn? Sure. Is it possible that a druid will kill a being who has find ways to escape death more peramently? Sure. But in general I think such cases would be rare.
There's nothing wrong with changing the dryad into something more "tank-like", even if there were alternatives like red caps (dryad is a more evocative name). It's a mythological, made up creature that doesn't really exist - and D&D has never been faithful to their original inspirations but has molded and changed them. That original myth about nymphs I threw tried to illustrate the similarities between dryads and nymphs.
Before I played D&D I had a very vague impression of what a Dryad is and what a Nymphs is...and in no way did I ever asscociate them with fey. Because Greek mythology didn't have fey. Since this edition is trying very hard to appeal to new players...why do you think they will have a clearewr knowledge of these things?
Also I think I stated on numrous occasion on why I dislike them making the dryad a 'fey tank'. But I'll state it again. Not every combat encounter has to be straight up brute force. Before the dryad wasn't this...now they are. I don't see the reason to change this.
Druids used to be something completely different in 1e, in 2e they were limited to True Neutral, and in 3e they're something else again. Same goes for bards, and even rangers - remember, they only used to be good. Change is not bad, it's okay to broaden the amount of options available.
Sure some changes were great...I just don't like this change to paladins. You could broden the options just as well as making more core classes...which they seem to be doing alot of. Heck if they called the class the Crusader and a Paladin was just one type of the Crusader I could get behind this change.
I don't know, they just chose not to? What's wrong with that?
Well because if they did this with their paladin concept according to you they will be limiting options.
Very different types of encounters? Both pretty elven looking maidens that use magic? Dryads protect their tree, nymphs protect a glade (or maybe a lake, or a mountaintop). Ultimately, WotC decided to change the dryad into something less nymph-like.
Sure they are similar...but just like Dragons are very similar...doesn't mean they have to be completely separate. Personaly due to various lore on Nymphs they are the general protectors of they're sisters(dryads, Slyphs, etc) and aren't bond to a location. I mean they are part of the same sub-race of fey...they should be similar it just makes sense to me.
I'll back of a little as you are being bombarded by posts. If you want to reply to me I suggest you don't do it in a post with others responses to post.
Though in closing I hope you enjoy 4th edition but it seems to be moving away from the things I like about D&D. Right now my descion to convert to D&D is based entirely how easy will it be to retool to what I liked.
Sure it does.
-No, it doesn't. Japanese Beetles are not native to New York City (We have a problem with them here), but are Japanese beetles unnatural creatures? Hell, most people in living in the United States aren't native (as in, having ancestries that have always lived here). I know that I'm not unnatural! Well, maybe unnaturally awesome, cool, amazing, or some other verb to that effect...
No, you wouldn't have to at all.
The game rules help to simulate a fantasy environment. That's it.
The scope of what the rules need to represent is limited to what players and DMs use/interact with in the game.
-Sure you would. Rules simulate a fantasy environment, sure. And, it is up to the DM/creator to "delve" as deep into the environment as they want, defining the natural and unnatural characteristics of an environment, area, and so on, using clues/hints from other sourcebooks, novels, adventures, statements, and whatever else.
Are there exceptions? Yes, of course. Mirt has a more or less watchghost devoted to protecting him and his property, does he not?
-Sure, there are plenty of benign Undead- Baelnorn, for instance. That they are good, evil, or somewhere inbetween doesn't change the fact that they are natural or unnatural, though. Would a vampire who came into existence through foul necromancy be more or less natural, or unnatural, than a Baelnorn created via White Necromancy? It's a rhetorical question. Not that it really matters to the argument at hand.
The universe is not a conscience enity...it has no will to allow or disallow anything.
-Eeeehhh...Technically, Realmspace is a conscious entity, through Ao.
Here is why I think druids on the prime material plane would fight the undead to near extinction is because their mere presence does disrupt the natural balance between life and death on a prime material world. Unlike life magic and the various raise dead spells these offer a minor tipping on the scale and merely delay the inevitable. The undead are a permant aberration for a prime material world's balance. A weigfht or a vampire or anyother undead that constantly make spawn will not die of old age...they will not stop producing more things that will continue to create more things, etc. that will continue to disrupt the balance. Just because Druids gain insight to the greater whole doesn't mean they can just abandon the balance of a world.
-Going by that logic, Druids should then also activley oppose anyone who uses Potions of Longetivity, and Positive Energy to increase their lifespan. After all, wouldn't you consider a Human living to three hundred unnatural? It certainly goes against the "rules" that nature intended Humans to live until.
-Note that I don't actually agree with Dan's stance of the Undead and being natural or not, but I have fun arguing for and supporting it.
-Eeeehhh...Technically, Realmspace is a conscious entity, through Ao.
I try to ignore Ao as he was a plot device for the worst plot ever for the Realms...(though the Spellplague might beat that out.) Also Ao isn't responisible for any thing in line with Balance atleast his actions never supported the Balance.
-Going by that logic, Druids should then also activley oppose anyone who uses Potions of Longetivity, and Positive Energy to increase their lifespan. After all, wouldn't you consider a Human living to three hundred unnatural? It certainly goes against the "rules" that nature intended Humans to live until.
I thought I answeared this. But I'll try to be a little clearer. A human who uses Positive Energy to increase they're lifespan is a minor blip against the balance. They will eventualy die. Though I think I did state that Druids would probably go after people who are very sucessful at it and are spreading the secrets of how it is done. A perfect example of such people are the Prolongers from Planescape.
Also a person who does this has a very minor if any effect on the Balance as oppose to a vampire that will continuely make more things that tip the balance. In other words I think Druid perfer dealing with life as they seem more willing to accpet the balance unlike undead who seen to want to disrupt the balance.
-Note that I don't actually agree with Dan's stance of the Undead and being natural or not, but I have fun arguing for and supporting it.
Hey debate and disscussion is fun. Well with some people.
I try to ignore Ao as he was a plot device for the worst plot ever for the Realms...(though the Spellplague might beat that out.) Also Ao isn't responisible for any thing in line with Balance atleast his actions never supported the Balance.
-Doesn't Ao exist to serve and maintain the "balance"?
Also a person who does this has a very minor if any effect on the Balance as oppose to a vampire that will continuely make more things that tip the balance. In other words I think Druid perfer dealing with life as they seem more willing to accpet the balance unlike undead who seen to want to disrupt the balance.
-And then there are people who live long lives, and then market their potions, and allow others to live longer lives. It seems like the "boat is rocked" a bit to me.
-And, just like not all things infused with Positive Energy want to maintain this "balance", neither do all things infused with Negative Energy want to disrupt this "balance".
Which makes a lot of sense really... even if I enjoy the debating myself, so carry on ladies and gents! :D
-And then there are people who live long lives, and then market their potions, and allow others to live longer lives. It seems like the "boat is rocked" a bit to me.
-And, just like not all things infused with Positive Energy want to maintain this "balance", neither do all things infused with Negative Energy want to disrupt this "balance".
I am ignoring all comment of Ao...I just throw up a little bit in my mouth everytime I type that name...
And like I said yes the druids would take a interest in such a person...and leave a undead along that doesn't tip the balance. I don't get are you agreeing with me or just argueing for arguement sake....
I mean atleast read what I am posting. Though the most interesting thing I did with this concept was to give the undead a countpoint. a evil race of Positive energy being who was trying to upset the balane(they were very lawful also...think facists that glow in the dark). The best part of these being is they healed people till they exploded...I can't wait to finally introduce this race to a game I am running. He hits you gain tempory HPs....the confusion and the sudden look of terror when they realize what is happening...
Sir_Shadow, I've tried to sound as friendly as possible in my posts (or at least matter-of-fact) but your tone is very hostile. I actually do have to skim posts because I have a limited amount of free time I can spend here. Also, this thread gets a lot of replies, and there are several posters replying to my posts, so it gets hard answering to each as I can't spend a lot of time here.
Point taken. I have little patience with people who seem to come into places and take the opposite view of whatever problem someone has with anything and try to play it up like they're overreacting to something thats despite their greatest thing in the world.
Point being, I've seen a great deal of your posts, in this thread and in others and anytime someone doesnt like something about the changes to the Realms or 4E in general you (and a few others) seem to immediately jump in and telling them how wrong they are and take the opposite view that everything is gonna be so perfect and so much better.. You're coming off like a cheerleader out to prove everyone wrong.
That being said I'll attempt to tone down any hostility apparent in what I write.
I didn't say core, and as you noticed already, there are variants in UA.
And I mentioned that Unearthed Arcana really isnt relevant because all it is is a book of Developer House Rules (And they basically tell you that in not so many words in the forward section). Thats kinda why the Unearthed ARcana Board and the House Rule Board are one in the same.
Like I said, a paladin in D&D doesn't necessarily equate to the real world example. For instance, the real world paladins would've been considered heretics would they have actually cast spells like paladins do in D&D. And so and so on.
Doubtful on the second part. Its a Miracle if you see a picture in a tortilla after all.
As to the first part, Its been said before the Historical Paladin was the inspiration. Everything else has been set in D&D terms for what a Paladin is for close to Thirty Years.
And I doubt they actually are doing it to open up options. I think they're doing it out of laziness. Their changing the ALignment system already, and like what was asked on the Ask a Designer Thread...They seem to Equate even changing the name of the Paladin to something like Crusader or Holy warrior with being to much work and having to create a class for each alignment.
They're just being lazy when its simple to say for example: "Crusader/Holy Warrior/Etc. Among good faiths this class is often refered to as a Paladin while in evil faiths its a Blackguard and for nuetral faiths etc etc. " Thats really not that difficult but apparently to do that they;d have to create nine paladin classes.
Its not about options.
Actually, I think you're referring to the entries that appeared in MM4. Due to feedback, WotC abandoned that approach in MM5, where instead we get unique versions of previously appeared monsters. Since they've done that and mentioned that MM5 is a preview of sorts how monsters in 4e will be designed, I doubt we'll see entries for regular orc fighters, clerics, etc that any DM can stat out.
I hope you're right, but I doubt it becuase from some of the playtest reports I've read they mentioned things like Orc skirmishers, Troll Brutes and things of that nature along with other varieties.
I think its their belief that making it so that you don't have to stat out an orc with class levels yourself is streamlining and making the game easier and more fun. Plug and Play monsters. I personally think thats a silly concept.
If I remember your post right, you complained about prestige classes that were too general? Many people like them as they're more easily adaptable. If you don't like them and don't want to buy them, what's the problem?
Actually I'm pretty sure I said generic and went against the intent of Prestige Classes. Which is being world specific tied to specific organizations and groups. Not what they are today just another thing for players to take 2 levels in to get a really cool power and then move on.
If it will work that way, the designers have merely copied the 3e rules. The rules that don't work well enough. Hopefully we'll receive better in 4e - social combat is supposed to be more complex than what we have now, i.e., roll a die and win or lose.
Seriously, either way its still ar oll of the dice taking place of roleplaying in a roleplaying game. I see no need for dice rolling in social encounters. Never have, never will. And a new system that seems to add more dice rolls isnt going to change that.
Some people don't want to roleplay and just want to kill stuff. More power to them. I play to roleplay so using dice instead of that is both counterproductive and an makes me want to hurl dice at people.
Yes, ultimately, D&D is all about combat. If you have a character who is lousy in combat in every way possible but has tons of different skills, the DM will struggle to provide proper challenges for that player because the game is designed for combat.
Anyone who's played a wizard who's run out of spells in the middle of a dungeon (and I'm sorry any DM that lets people rest in a dungeon for 8 hours to regain spells ...well nevermind what I think of that idea) but anyone who has had that happen knows you pretty much have to be real creative if you want to live. Besides, overcoming a challenge is not the same as combat. Alot of times it is but its not the end all be all of what a challenge is.
My preferred method when DMing is both speaking and rolling dice - however, you don't roll dice every single time you open your mouth. Social rules are used for challenges, just like combat.Part of why I prefer dice with social stuff is because I simply feel that it's unfair if the naturally good with words player is better at that stuff than the shyer one - after all, in all other aspects, the characters start out as equals.
Its been mentioned before that a DM that insists on his players actually being the diplomats their characters might be is a very poor DM. And like I said before its very easy for a DM to translate the intent of what a player has in mind to how the NPC reacts no matter how good or bad the player may be at talking.
The trick is not to say "Ok tell me what you're saying to the king/whatever NPC to convince him" its to say "Ok tell me how you want to convince him" That way they can say they want to mention the large number of orcs marching towards the city or that the elves in that forest over there have been fighting the same orc for years and would be glad to help the city if it meant getting rid of their problem.
Sorry, like I said to Sir_Shadow, I only have a limited amount of time I can spend replying to so many posts. Good social encounter rules won't discourage RP - the ones we have in 3e can do that, because Diplomacy is tied to a single die roll, and that's it. Look at Bluff, for example: you get bonuses and penalties based on what you actually say. That's how the rules in 4e should work, or something close to it.
Again, die rolls in 3E too. Making better die rolls in 4E is still going to have die rolls determining the outcome.
How about a druid that embodies the destructive, merciless side of nature?
Druids are tied to the Balance of nature in the area they're living in/protecting. I'd actually have no problem with that scenario if there was a logical reason for it.
The 2E Players handbook has a passage in the druid section that mentions a druid might help a town do something about the hobgoblins all over the place, but when the hobgoblins (at least I think it was hobgoblins) got decimated the druid was just as likely to turn around and help them because now the human townsfolk were upsetting the balance.
Its one of the reasons I always loved NPC druids. Yeah the hobgoblins running around in the woods may be causing problems but if the druid was doing his job whatever damage they caused would be offset by something else. Where as the new town thats busily clearcutting the forest would be seen as a threat and targetted for 'rebalancing' :D Druids are very easy to make antagonists.
On a totally unrelated note, I may being overly cynical (being a cynic means never being letdown and unfortunately very rarely surprised) but I was reading the two pages of Dave Noonans blogs they got up here and I noticed something.
One of his posts mentioned some of the playtesting they had done for 3E and he mentioned two characters that were being played. Tordek and Vadania with Tordek complaining that Vadanias Bear Companion was better than he was. Now, I may be overreacting, but the so called "iconic characters" that are all over the place, am I to understand that they're iconic because they're the damn designers personal player characters!
See that just reminds me of two things I've always been told about writing. Never put blatant self inserts into your writing, and NEVER write for publication stories about your D&D characters.
But that's ony a minor thing and simply worthy of a roll of the eyes and little else.
I notice something odd in general on these boards. That is about rude posters. If someone that the majority of people like is rude to others and is totally in the wrong, the majority usually keeps quiet. When a person that the majority dislikes is rude though everyone gets on their back and nails them to a cross. Maybe I am wrong and have missed the majority telling their buddies to be less rude. Just something to think about.
More importantly, to me, it propagates the stereotype that the opposite of natural is death/undeath/etc.
To me life and death are part of the natural order. Undeath is making both a mockery of life and death, and thus making a mockery of the natural order. I can understand why someone might argue differently, and I could respect that, however I still believe that the prevailing opinion, even among older wiser druids, would be that the undead are unnatural, and are a perversion of the natural order.
And I mentioned that Unearthed Arcana really isnt relevant because all it is is a book of Developer House Rules (And they basically tell you that in not so many words in the forward section). Thats kinda why the Unearthed ARcana Board and the House Rule Board are one in the same.
Yet, you can play a non-LG paladin in 3e, supported by published rules.
Actually I'm pretty sure I said generic and went against the intent of Prestige Classes. Which is being world specific tied to specific organizations and groups. Not what they are today just another thing for players to take 2 levels in to get a really cool power and then move on.
Yes, generic (not a native speaker). However, what's wrong with generic PrCs or players who just take them for a couple of levels to gain more power? It's their game, not yours - they do what they like, you do what you prefer. After all, you still get world-specific PrCs in the relevant world-specific books.
I play to roleplay so using dice instead of that is both counterproductive and an makes me want to hurl dice at people.
For what it's worth, I play to roleplay too, but I do like to use dice with social encounters.
That's how D&D works for me - other systems are another thing.Besides, overcoming a challenge is not the same as combat. Alot of times it is but its not the end all be all of what a challenge is.
I know, but that's the problem: D&D doesn't really support non-combat challenges. It's been primarily designed for combat. Combat receives the bulk of the attention in the game's rules and how it handles encounters.
Its one of the reasons I always loved NPC druids. Yeah the hobgoblins running around in the woods may be causing problems but if the druid was doing his job whatever damage they caused would be offset by something else. Where as the new town thats busily clearcutting the forest would be seen as a threat and targetted for 'rebalancing' :D Druids are very easy to make antagonists.
Also, if you look at what nature can do when it's hostile to us - hurricanes, floods, tidal waves, disease, poison, earthquakes, fires, you name it. It really isn't all fluffy and cute and tree-huggy.
Sorry, I did misread your post.
Apology accepted.
I didn't have to be so rude, but I get annoyed when people put words in my mouth (you didn't mean to, but I didn't know that).-No, it doesn't. Japanese Beetles are not native to New York City (We have a problem with them here)...
And here in New Jersey.
And pretty much the entire Eastern U.S. if I recall correctly.I notice something odd in general on these boards. That is about rude posters. If someone that the majority of people like is rude to others and is totally in the wrong, the majority usually keeps quiet. When a person that the majority dislikes is rude though everyone gets on their back and nails them to a cross. Maybe I am wrong and have missed the majority telling their buddies to be less rude. Just something to think about.
That's odd? It's human nature and I've observed it for a long time. Just look at how people act in the political arena.
I think that Mr Miscellany's point was ultimately that it was up to the DM to decide what was natural and unnatural, that there wasn't really a truly objective way to determine it as its fictional and all that, and that ultimately it doesn't matter because the undead are there to represent a certain theme and mood in the game, not to be pondered over as a viable species... so don't bother trying to analyze something that can't be.
I have to say, that's pretty much my opinion on the matter as well. Also, I think a character's opinion is ultimately what counts (not player knowledge and/or beliefs), and characters are certainly free to be biased and wrong about things.
Yes, generic (not a native speaker). However, what's wrong with generic PrCs or players who just take them for a couple of levels to gain more power? It's their game, not yours - they do what they like, you do what you prefer. After all, you still get world-specific PrCs in the relevant world-specific books.
The problem I have with the dearth of prestige classes is, well they arent very prestigious anymore. Its jsut another class to multiclass into tomake a 'build: ...excuse me while I shudder a moment...all better. I like Prestige Classes, I like how you can customize a world with them and make the group that you have called the Knights Who Say Ni have a distinct feel to them abilities-wise.
What I don't like about them is that they've gone away from their intent, with the aide of published materials, into just being another class to dip into. A Fighter/Purple Dragon Knight should consider himself a Purple Dragon Knight because the class IS the order. Its something to identify with not just a mechanical way to get this power with to levels and then move on.
Not sure if I'm explaining this right....Prestige Classes should mean something. Hence the Prestige Part. I see a Prestige class defining the character. After all a guy from Thay in red robes casting spells isnt a wizard (Necromancer) /Red Wizard PrC...he's a Red Wizard of Thay.
but that's the problem: D&D doesn't really support non-combat challenges. It's been primarily designed for combat. Combat receives the bulk of the attention in the game's rules and how it handles encounters.
Ok theres a reason why combat gets so many pages and rules and Social and Roleplay does not. You don't need rules on how to roleplay but you do need rules on how to conduct combat or you get the "I shot you no you didnt" kinda thing going.
Because there are more rules for combat than anything else doesnt make it a combat focused game. It just means that area needs to be defined more than any other aspect outside of maybe spellcasting.
Also, if you look at what nature can do when it's hostile to us - hurricanes, floods, tidal waves, disease, poison, earthquakes, fires, you name it. It really isn't all fluffy and cute and tree-huggy.
No the fluffy cute tree huggy stuff is elves.
I think that they didn't want to drop the iconic name of Paladin as a class. I think they wanted to keep it because player are familiar with the class concept. There is no need for 9 paladin classes when they can just make 1 base class and explain that there are now 2 new alignments that a paladin can be.
Thats the thing though, theres no need to create a seperate class for each alignment. A little descriptive sentences will do that for you. If you're a good Champion you're liable to be called a paladin, if your an evil one you're liable to be called a Blackguard or some other rather uncomplimentary names etc etc.
When the question was asked about changing the name of the Paladin the answer was pretty much they didnt want to make 9 classes. Now either the designers arent imaginative enough to make a name change or the answer doesnt fit the question. It's like a reporter asking a question on the effects of clearcutting a forest and the politician answering by talking about the man that invented the chainsaw having to create a new model for each species of tree.
I just think that Prestige classes should be meaningful. Whereas fighter, wizard, cleric etc are professions, Prestige Classes really arent. Or at least shouldnt be. Like the Purple Dragon Knight, if you're from Cormyr being one actually means something, while fighters are a dime a dozen so to speak.
Like I said, thats pure speculation, but I wasn't a big fan of the 'min-maxing' factor in 3e so I won't be sorry to see it go. However, since that sort of thing appeals to their target audience (the Monty-Hauler/Raid-group crowd), it will probably just see a new incarnation - I doubt they're going to deny the 'kiddies' all their "Gimme, gimme, gimme".
Thats the thing though, theres no need to create a seperate class for each alignment. A little descriptive sentences will do that for you. If you're a good Champion you're liable to be called a paladin, if your an evil one you're liable to be called a Blackguard or some other rather uncomplimentary names etc etc.
When the question was asked about changing the name of the Paladin the answer was pretty much they didnt want to make 9 classes. Now either the designers arent imaginative enough to make a name change or the answer doesnt fit the question. It's like a reporter asking a question on the effects of clearcutting a forest and the politician answering by talking about the man that invented the chainsaw having to create a new model for each species of tree.
- I hear ya, Like a Psion You want a clas to have "sub-classes". And this new Class (let's call it "Champion" for argument sake) sub-classes will have diferent names, the LG one should be called paladin and the LE one "Blackguard" and so on, right?
Now about the "social combat". IMO the point of having more combat rules than Social skill rules is that people that play D&D can actually talk (unless you have a mute palyer) no matter how bad their social skill are we use them every day ALL THE TIME in real life, we are all "Social Creatures", shoot the mere fact of GATHERING to play D&D is a social even in itself. But not all of us are "Combat Creatures"(Even though me as a Proud Freaking Soldier am:D ), so therefore we need more Combat rules. Make sense?
That's odd? It's human nature and I've observed it for a long time. Just look at how people act in the political arena.
Okay it's not odd then. So it's okay to be rude on these boards as long as the majority likes you? :D
Anyway PRCs are not really that good half the time. The flavorful ones are pretty weak when it comes down to the combat sides of thing. The caster PRCs seem to skip a lvl of casting to balance any interesting ability you may get. Do you really need the Purple Dragon Knight PRC to be a Purple Knight? Why can't you go all 20 lvls of Crusader and still call yourself a Purple Dragon Knight? You could and it would be better than the PRC IMO. The PRCs should be as fun as the more recent "Core Classes" that came out of the Complete series in the last couple of years. Hopefully PRcs are a bit better in 4E.
Lots of the older crowd fall into that "gimmie gimmie" min/max frame of mind too Marcus. You can also make an optimized PC and still roleplay your butt off. It doesn't always work out that way though. I do know alot of older gamers that are excited with the new rules. When I say older I mean 30+ in age. Unless it totally blows. Then we will all spit on it.
Okay it's not odd then. So it's okay to be rude on these boards as long as the majority likes you? :D
Didn't say that.
I just think everybody (or almost everybody) is biased towards their buddies.I am ignoring all comment of Ao...I just throw up a little bit in my mouth everytime I type that name...
-So, If I Dominated you, and forced you to type 'Ao' five times, you'd throw up five times? Interesting...
I don't get are you agreeing with me or just argueing for arguement sake....
-Arguing for argument's sake. Like I said above, I don't actually agree with what I'm arguing in support of.
I mean atleast read what I am posting.
-So you think I read any of the drivel that you post? :P
Seriously, the word "paladin" was used during the times of Charlemagne the same way that "knight" was used during the times of King Aurthur. And just like Aurthur's knights, not all of Charlemagne's paladins were lawful good. I see nothing wrong with an evil deity having an unholy paladin as a good deity has a holy one.
-Did you read the arguments against non-LG Paladins in D&D?
Yet, you can play a non-LG paladin in 3e, supported by published rules.
-That's news to me. Like I said earlier, the Paladin class specifically in the PHB that those taking the class must be Lawful and Good. Could you explain?
What may be a matter of semantics to some people is a rather touchy subject with others - especially with over thirty years of gaming history behind it. Thats like telling us that Hit Points means Armor Class now - changing the meaning of a word is absurd in a gaming environment and invites confusion.
I'm not talking about RW Paladins - which were NOT originally from Charlemagne - It was a term used to describe the Praetorian Gaurd by Emperor Diocletian of Rome, and later used by the Roman Catholic Church to describe Knightly positions within the church.
So RW Paladins went on crusades, which were just a smokescreen for the western church to rob from the eastern one, and also participated heavily in the Inquisition, which was notable for burning women alive and torturing confessions out of little girls.
So yeah, RW Paladins BLEW CHUNKS, but D&D GAME Paladins are nice, smiley idiots who are alll about sniffing pretty flowers and playing with cute little bunnies, and in MY games, thats the way they are going to stay.
So yeah, RW Paladins BLEW CHUNKS, but D&D GAME Paladins are nice, smiley idiots who are alll about sniffing pretty flowers and playing with cute little bunnies, and in MY games, thats the way they are going to stay.
I had an NPC paladin who did just that in one of my games.
you were heroes! :fight!:
I'm not talking about RW Paladins - which were NOT originally from Charlemagne - It was a term used to describe the Praetorian Gaurd by Emperor Diocletian of Rome, and later used by the Roman Catholic Church to describe Knightly positions within the church.
I don't know where you're getting your information about Paladins, but you're incorrect. That is certainly not the case. Paladin and Palatine are two different things despite the formers name being derived from the latter.
You're probably referring to the Scholae Palatinae which were not paladins in any sense of the word. And the Praetorian Guard was never decribed as Palatini. The Scholae Palatinae came after the Praetorian were disbanded by Constantine, not Diocletian.
Paladin is derived from Palatini but was never meant as the same thing.
Huh? Uh, no. You do know the Crusades took place in Israel and not Byzantium right? There was no Western and Eastern church (though it was an excuse for christians to rob muslims which is why alot of Holy Orders got very rich)...-Not to nitpick, but there was a "Western" and "Eastern" church. During the latter days of the Roman Empire, if I am not mistaken, the seat of power was moved east, to Constantinople. There, then, was a Pope in Rome, and a Pope in Constantinople. Hence, two churches.
But its still different time periods. By the Time of the Crusades, the only "Romans" were in Byzantium as The West had fallen to Barbarian tribes long ago. The only thing that could be considered an Eastern church would be maybe the Orthodox church in the Balkans area (who hated the church in Rome)
The first crusade did go through Byzantium, but that was more political than anything else as I recall but their goal was never robbing christians. It was robbing and killing muslims.
Editted to Add: Come to think of it, the Original Pope was just the Bishop of Rome so might have had a guy in Byzantium calling himself Pope but I don't recall that occurring.
-So, If I Dominated you, and forced you to type 'Ao' five times, you'd throw up five times? Interesting...
Yes...but you would first have to find a way to dominate me...I am pretty strong will. And your magics are weak. :P
--Arguing for argument's sake. Like I said above, I don't actually agree with what I'm arguing in support of.
Sure I do this all the time...but can't you atleast bring up a new point? I mean heck I am argueing within Gothic Dan's odd way of looking at the multiverse.
--So you think I read any of the drivel that you post? :P
Well probably not as you don't have the intellect to understand it. ;) :P :D
Not really no, when the ROman Empire split there were two Emperors (Byzantium by far outlasting Rome) but as far as I can recall, and I may be wrong about this, the Church and the Pope was always located in Rome even when there was a Western Empire in headquartered in Ravenna. At most Byzantium/Constantinople had a Bishop or a Cardinal (havent a clue about that sort of ecclessistical heirarchy)
-I was under the assumption that when Rome "officially" moved her capital to Constantinople, and "officially" became the Byzantine Empire, there was a schizm that led to two different churches, because there were two individuals claiming to be Pope. As far as I know, this is why Roman Catholocism and Eastern Orthodox are so similar, in terms of rituals and beliefs. It's just that neither can agree who's the "real" Pope.
Editted to Add: Come to think of it, the Original Pope was just the Bishop of Rome so might have had a guy in Byzantium calling himself Pope but I don't recall that occurring.
-Well, at certain points, there were multiple guys (and women!) running around, calling themselves the 'True Pope', so...
-That's news to me. Like I said earlier, the Paladin class specifically in the PHB that those taking the class must be Lawful and Good. Could you explain?
Unearthed Arcana, or here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedomSlaughterAndTyranny
Unearthed Arcana, or here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedomSlaughterAndTyranny
-Wasn't it established that Unearthed Arcana was simply a book of House Rules? Mind you, I don't have the book, so...
-I was under the assumption that when Rome "officially" moved her capital to Constantinople, and "officially" became the Byzantine Empire, there was a schizm that led to two different churches, because there were two individuals claiming to be Pope. As far as I know, this is why Roman Catholocism and Eastern Orthodox are so similar, in terms of rituals and beliefs. It's just that neither can agree who's the "real" Pope.
No, the Roman empire jsut pretty much faded away. For a while the Byzantines still considered themselves Roman but eventually that passed. There was no official move to Byzantium. Byzantium a Roman capital since the empire split in half (and the Western Empire was capitaled in Ravenna sometime after the Goths sacked Rome)
The Schism was actually over the fact that the Bishop of Rome claimed himself head of the entire church as the Father of the Church and the Bishops of Byzantium, Antioch, Jurusalem, and Alexandria disagreed saying that he only had power over his own little area and to leave them the hell alone. Its why its called the Roman Catholic Church.
-Well, at certain points, there were multiple guys (and women!) running around, calling themselves the 'True Pope', so...
Yeah taht was I think early middle ages and had to do with the Pope that was elected packing up and moving to Avignon and people not really liking him not living in Rome so they Elected a new one.
Happened a few times I believe.
-Wasn't it established that Unearthed Arcana was simply a book of House Rules? Mind you, I don't have the book, so...
I see it as a big book of house rules and so apparently does WotC becasue the Unearthed Arcana Board and the House Rules Board are the same thing.
"... things get uncomfortable for us, but the universe doesn't give a crap."
You can't mock something when it has no emotions.
This is the exact reason why I do not see things as unnatural. Replace 'universe' with 'multiverse.'
The other quote I wrote at random was:
"Nothing you emit can get beyond the PARTICLE HORIZON!" Because it sounded so damn fatalistic.
I actually wrote down something in Thermo today that I found topical to the Undead discussion. Of course, it won't mean much to anyone who's not familiar with the Hubble light 'onion,' spacetime, general relativity, peculiar velocity, and the like, but it sure sounded good.
"... things get uncomfortable for us, but the universe doesn't give a crap."
You can't mock something when it has no emotions.
This is the exact reason why I do not see things as unnatural. Replace 'universe' with 'multiverse.'
The other quote I wrote at random was:
"Nothing you emit can get beyond the PARTICLE HORIZON!" Because it sounded so damn fatalistic.
okay...sorry can you give it to us in English?
I guess my main disagreement is that there is one Balance served by the druids....each plane has it own rules for what is natural...for instance fire is unnatural on the plane of water...undead are very unnatural in the positive energy plane, etc. I guess I just have a more complicated view of the D&D multiverse.
Yes...but you would first have to find a way to dominate me...I am pretty strong will. And your magics are weak. :P
-John, can I tell you something? I already Dominated you, and my first action was to make you argue and doubt the fact that I could. I just released you, but just wanted you to know...;)
Well probably not as you don't have the intellect to understand it. ;) :P :D
-You're right. I don't speak stupid. :P
"... things get uncomfortable for us, but the universe doesn't give a crap."
-In other words, regardless of any particular stigmas placed on something, something continues to be what it is, in actuality.
-See, even people who are retarded in physics, like me, unfortunatley, can understand!
-John, can I tell you something? I already Dominated you, and my first action was to make you argue and doubt the fact that I could. I just released you, but just wanted you to know...;)
I hate mind control...I can see it now we get into a endless back and forth between us on what happened....and then our heads will explode in a titantic mental struggle....so I'll just say this...If it makes you happy to think so then go right ahead in believeing it...;)
If it makes you happy to think so then go right ahead in believeing it...;)
-Let's just call it even.
-Wasn't it established that Unearthed Arcana was simply a book of House Rules? Mind you, I don't have the book, so...
Yes, optional rules, just like anything published. What's the big problem here? WotC has published non-good paladin variants in 3e.
-Let's just call it even.
YES!!YES!!! I TIED WITHE ALL POWEFUL KARSUS!!!
:D
:bounce: 
Yes, optional rules, just like anything published. What's the big problem here? WotC has published non-good paladin variants in 3e.
-Either way, they are still not Paladins. It's a simple logic argument that proves it:
Paladin = Lawful Good
Paladin of Freedom/Slaughter/etc. = Not Lawful Good
Paladin does not equal Paladin of Freedom/Slaughter/etc
-Simply because the word 'Paladin' is in their title does not make them actual 'Paladins', as we know the word. Just like Ao isn't a deity, even though his title is said to be 'Overdeity'.
YES!!YES!!! I TIED WITHE ALL POWEFUL KARSUS!!!
-Because he let you. Don't forget that part.
-Remember, John, I have that entire legion of robots. You know, the ones that do the whipping. I didn't even involve them, yet. ;)
-Either way, they are still not Paladins. It's a simple logic argument that proves it:
Paladin = Lawful Good
Paladin of Freedom/Slaughter/etc. = Not Lawful Good
Paladin does not equal Paladin of Freedom/Slaughter/etc
-Simply because the word 'Paladin' is in their title does not make them actual 'Paladins', as we know the word. Just like Ao isn't a deity, even though his title is said to be 'Overdeity'.
Are you serious? They're still called PALADINS of x, and use the mechanics of the paladin class with slight alterations. So, in 3e, you can actually write down "Paladin" in the class section, and CE in the alignment section. Why is this such a big issue!? It's a name. Of a class.-Remember, John, I have that entire legion of robots. You know, the ones that do the whipping. I didn't even involve them, yet. ;)
I forgot about the robots.....
Actualy no you would be wrong...you would write Paladin of Slaughter(I think as those classes were really badly made) and you are limited to writing down CE....see the issues now?
Sure options are great...but limitions are what make us great.
You don't care about the name thing, others do, it's a matter of opinion and hence has no right or wrong answer. Personally, I wouldn't call them paladins either though, for the record. ;)
-No, you can't write down Paladin of X, and write CE in your alignment. Well, yes you can, but if you do write down Paladin and make CE your alignment, you are no longer considered a Paladin, and lose your Paladin class abilities.
-It's such an "issue" because, as was said, in Dungeons and Dragons, Paladins represent a specific idea. Representing anything other than this idea makes the character class in question something other than a Paladin. It's very black and white.
-Again:
Paladin = Lawful Good
Paladin of Freedom/Slaughter/etc. = Not Lawful Good
Paladin does not equal Paladin of Freedom/Slaughter/etc
-You can't argue logic. Well, you can, but...
-Psions have traditionally relied on their minds for power. Would you consider a "Skeletal Psion", that is, a character class that derives it's power from the character's bone marrow, to be a Psion? Would you consider a "Barbarian of Peace"- a class that cannot rage, but is exceptionally good at reading and writing books- to be a Barbarian? And so on, and so on...
Actualy no you would be wrong...you would write Paladin of Slaughter(I think as those classes were really badly made) and you are limited to writing down CE....see the issues now?
Sure options are great...but limitions are what make us great.
Really badly made. Seeing as their code of ethics to maintain their status is actually stricter and harder to maintain than the actual Paladins. A Paladin can't do anything evil Pretty easy in the grand scheme of things. A "Paladin of Slaughter" can't do anything good. Can you imagine how difficult that would actually be to maintain.
It shows why taking a concept and changing all the references to good to evil isnt a very good idea.
Can you imagine one of them opening up a door for an old lady and "falling" because of it. :D That doesnt seem like a class that you are ever able to get very many levels in
-Would you consider a "Barbarian of Peace"- a class that cannot rage, but is exceptionally good at reading and writing books- to be a Barbarian? And so on, and so on...
Just got this image in my head of a big hulking Conan type smacking someone with a daisy and saying "Stop that."
Just got this image in my head of a big hulking Conan type smacking someone with a daisy and saying "Stop that."
-There you go! Arrrrhhnold is a "Barbarian of Peace", laying the proverbial "smack down" with California law (an oxymoron, I know, but still...)!
-There you go! Arrrrhhnold is a "Barbarian of Peace", laying the proverbial "smack down" with California law (an oxymoron, I know, but still...)!
Hey now, Arnold sounded like a good idea at the time ok. We were drunk or ...something. Besides, anybody looks better when compared to Gray Davis. I personally voted for the pornstar. But thats only because I couldnt and still cant stand any of the politicians that were running and I figured, hell out of the rest of them that was left she had just as good a chance as any.
Now in New York, I'm starting to realize after several years, you people have no right to make fun of any other states voting :D
Edit to add: Except Texas. They deserve it. And maybe Minnesota...as much as I like Jesse, come on now. Arnold at least had precedent with Reagan.
I personally voted for the pornstar.
-She had a good pulse on the issues, right?
Now in New York, I'm starting to realize after several years, you people have no right to make fun of any other states voting :D
-How's that? Last wacky person who was elected was Clinton, and the only reason she was elected (most people forget) was because Rudy Giuliani, who was also running for senate, dropped out with only a few weeks to spare, having been diagnosed with prostate cancer. His replacement, Rick Lazio (Yeah, ever heard of him?) didn't do too bad considering (He got something like 45% of the vote) he was literally a "last minute candidate". Had Giuliani not dropped out, odds are there would be no: Sen. Clinton (D-NY)
And I have to hold my tongue about NY politics - remember that mayor who did nothing but play tennis for his entire term? The guy who came after Koch? I must have blotted his name from my mind. Anyway, he would have given DC's Mayor Bradley a run for his money for biggest piece of s__t! (or Bono, if you watch SP).
I don't know where you're getting your information about Paladins, but you're incorrect.
Thats actually a physical impossibility. :P
You need to look at where a word came from in order to see how it evolved. Personally, if they had ANYTHING to do with the church their alignment should be Lawful Satanic.
THIS is where I get all my facts. ;)
You know what they say - "I read it on the Internet so it must be true".
The guy who came after Koch? I must have blotted his name from mny mind.
-David Dinkins.
I mean "my ears!"
No wait... I had it right the first time...
screw it... you know what I was driving at. ;)
Classes and what they represent have changed and will change in D&D. Ranger, bard, druid, crusader - you name it.
But then again, I see this as something wrong with the society at large, not just WotC.
Changing a name is a hell of a lot easier than changing everyones' perceptions of the name.
Paladin
1592, "one of the 12 knights in attendance on Charlemagne," from M.Fr. paladin "a warrior," from It. paladino, from L. palatinus "palace official;" noun use of palatinus "of the palace" (see palace). The O.Fr. form of the word was palaisin (which gave M.E. palasin, c.1400); the It. form prevailed because, though the matter was French, the poets who wrote the romances were mostly Italians.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=paladin&searchmode=none
This just reinforces my dislike of the Paladin class... Well, I love playing them, but I really dislike the blatant Christian influences.
So, it seems like the 'oldest' forms of the term is more similar to the Knight that we have now.
This just reinforces my dislike of the Paladin class... Well, I love playing them, but I really dislike the blatant Christian influences.
I also mentioned this in post #1406 (towards the end of page 47) but I think it got lost. Anyways, why not steal the name "Crusader" from the ToB? I am pretty sure that the 4e Paladin stole some (or many) of the class abilities from this class (as well as the Knight from the PHB2).
You guys argue about the silliest things.
And I have to hold my tongue about NY politics - remember that mayor who did nothing but play tennis for his entire term? The guy who came after Koch? I must have blotted his name from my mind. Anyway, he would have given DC's Mayor Bradley a run for his money for biggest piece of s__t! (or Bono, if you watch SP).
Thats actually a physical impossibility. :P
You need to look at where a word came from in order to see how it evolved. Personally, if they had ANYTHING to do with the church their alignment should be Lawful Satanic.
THIS is where I get all my facts. ;)
You know what they say - "I read it on the Internet so it must be true".
Yeah see Wikipedia for most things is...well at best skewed and misinformed. That page in particular is a mess. Its acting like 3 different titles are the same thing when they arent. The Roman Palatini and the Medieval Palatine have some similairities, but neither were combat or war oriented positions.
Don't know where they got Diocletian when it was Constantine that disbanded the Praetorians after invading Italy and taking over.
Take a look at the discussion page. Theres a difference between entymology of what the word Paladin is derived from and comparing the Palatini or the Scholae Palatinae and saying they were called paladins or were the original Paladins. One was a pretty much a chamberlain type that ran the imperial household, the second were Barbarian Cavalry that Replaced the Praetorian Guard (so that they wouldn't try to influence politics they werent even citizens)
The word and entymology came from latin, most words we use did, but they're two different concepts that only have the fact that there were horses involved in common.
Charlamagne is where the concept of the Paladin came from.
I'm really wishing I could go to grad school for both Classics AND Physics...
Yeah see Wikipedia for most things is...well at best skewed and misinformed.
I was just making a joke there - about myself really. I should of dug a little deeper then Wiki. ;)
Anyway, the point is, when I think of a Paladin, I think of King Arthur's Knights, not Charlemagne's. I realize historically if there was a King Arthur his men probably weren't even Christians, but the point is the ones from the stories is how I see a Paladin in my mind's eye - most especially Sir Galahad.
There were a few 'evil knights' in those stories as well, but I would never think of any of them as a Paladin.
D&D has taught us for over 30 years that a Paladin was a Holy Warrior, and now they are telling us it's not. What that tells me is that the 'current team' think they "know better" then such gaming notables as Gygax or Greenwood, Arneson or Schend - thats a lot of hubris, IMO.
Did you see Rome? I got the idea that all they did was fornicate all the time like pigs in a rut. Not so sure how historically accurate that is, but it was fun to watch.
About as historically accurate as Gladiator. Was a really good show though when I was able to block off the historical innacuracies.
Anyway, the point is, when I think of a Pladin, I think of King Arthur's Knights, not Charlemagne's. I realize historically if there was a King Arthur his men probably weren't even Christians, but the point is the ones from the stories is how I see a Paladin in my mind's eye - most especially Sir Galahad.
King ARthur fits into the archtype that most people think of. Considering that most people dont know who Roland is. And they would have been christians becasue the original stories come from around the time of Vortigern as far as setting goes, so Britain was already somewhat Christianized.
Its funny that you should mention Galahad, because him and Percival are the only two that I would actually consider Paladins out of any of the Knights. Including Tristan (my own personal favorite). And if you know about Galahad the Pure it makes the Monty Python scene in Castle Anthrax so much more amusing.
The Paladin's code definately I would venture to say come very heavily from Arthurian Myth and chivalry in general where the idea of what a Paladin was predated them.
There were a few 'evil knights' in those stories as well, but I would never think of any of them as a Paladin.
Aaah the days when the term Knight was just a title without any connotations of good or evil inherrant. Palomedies is a good example of that, though he did turn out well in the end.
D&D has taught us for over 30 years that a Paladin was a Holy Warrior, and now they are telling us it's not. What that tells me is that the 'current team' think they "know better" then such gaming notables as Gygax or Greenwood, Arneson or Schend - thats a lot of hubris, IMO.
More than likely. Considering the fact that some of the developers logs I've read they mentioned playtesters asking where this or that was all the time and not being able to find something because they've apparently been rename happy with alot of the mechanics and terms, yet they balk at renaming the Paladin because they dont want to have to make 9 classes for it. Still not seeing the logic in that one.
And as much as I like him, Gygax at the core lifted things very heavily from other sources. Like the hobbit (which ended up halfling to keep from getting sued). But the difference being, most of what he lifted him and others expanded on and eventually made something different.
Even if Halflings pretty much remained the same until 3E made them Kender.
I don't think I'll pass judgment on it before it's out though. There are some things I read in the Grand History that I did not like, but then again I was planning on bringing Leira back from the dead and Gods know how many of you THAT would have annoyed if Wizards had decided to do the same thing. I guess I'll just wait and see. If I don't like the time line well, I'll just have to change it. In my campaign, Tethyr has a colony in Maztica simply because I wanted one. If I don't want Mystra to die: she won't. Some of my epic characters will just have to find a way to save her like others saved Waukeen years before. If I want Siamorphe and Gargauth to kill each other off in battle, then I'll do it to. (Though I really plan on keeping them alive for the sake of two of my players hehehe).
I don't think I'll by new stuff. Third edition is as far as I'll go for RPG books since we are also playing many other games (star wars, WoD, etc). But I'll keep on seeing what is happening in the time line. If it suits my campaign, I'll put it in. And if not, I wont. I do plan on buying some of the novels though.
Let's just hope that not all of our favorite characters end up like Mystra hehehe. BTW, who will replace her? Elminster? The Simbul?
Correct - they have stated REPEATEDLY that NO ONE will replace Mystra; there may be a new 'god of Magic', but there will absolutley be no Weave anymore, and Mystra was the Weave. If we do get a new god, it will be something more along the lines of the wholly neutral Boccob (who I can get behind).
As oppose to say the slowly becoming wholly neutral Mystra?
I can't believe this. Lord Karsus, yes, you can write down paladin of justice, freedom, tyranny, or slaughter on your character sheet if your DM allows the variants from UA. There are those actual rules that support it. You are still called a paladin unless the DM decides to rename the class - just like with anything else in D&D.
Classes and what they represent have changed and will change in D&D. Ranger, bard, druid, crusader - you name it.
-I don't understand why this is so difficult for you to grasp. Yes, you can write down Paladin of X on your character sheet. When you do, you are a Paladin of X, and not a Paladin. I provided a simply logic proof that demonstrates that Paladins of X are not Paladins. Something cannot be something and not be something at the same time. You are not called a Paladin. You are called a Paladin of X. Again, Paladins of X are not Paladins. Therefore, the character with levels in Paladin of X is not a Paladin.
-As Dan mentioned, having simply "[changed] the freaking name", as "changing a name is a hell of a lot easier than changing everyones' perceptions of the name".
By the way,
(If you use these versions of the paladin class, you might consider designating the standard paladin as the "paladin of honor" to differentiate it from the variants.)
Ah, so a priest of Mask is not a priest but a priest OF MASK. Righto...
I actually prefer to call them Darkcloaks. ;)
Ah, so a priest of Mask is not a priest but a priest OF MASK. Righto...
-Yes, they'd be Darkcloaks.
By the way,
-A "Paladin of Honor" would be a Paladin, yes. A Paladin of Slaugher, however, would not.
That they had to differentiate between the different paladins is a bit of a problem due to the connotations associated with paladins. It's not just D&D, other RPGs have paladins that roughly correlate with the noble holy knight concept also. If they do use an evil paladin, again it is often with an extra explanation or word attached to it such as Anti-paladin, Dark Paladin, etc.
I blame Charlemagne, that Frank-leading, Europe-conquering bastard.
-Yes, they'd be Darkcloaks.
And priests of Osprem are...? Not priests, by your logic.
-A "Paladin of Honor" would be a Paladin, yes. A Paladin of Slaugher, however, would not.
Yeah, never mind the word paladin in there.
How hard, really, is it for you to accept that paladins in D&D are not always LG? What's the big deal? Does this have something to do with their real life origin?
I blame Charlemagne, that Frank-leading, Europe-conquering bastard.
-It it weren't for him...
:: Shakes Fist ::
And priests of Osprem are...? Not priests, by your logic.Yeah, never mind the word paladin in there.
-Who's Osprem?
How hard, really, is it for you to accept that paladins in D&D are not always LG? What's the big deal? Does this have something to do with their real life origin?
-It has nothing to do with real life. It has to do with Dungeons and Dragons. As I pointed out, a requirement of the Paladin is to be Lawful Good. Thus, according to the logic proof, anything that is not Lawful Good is not a Paladin. Paladins of X do not meet the requirements of being Paladins, thus, while they have the word 'Paladin' in their title, they are not Paladins. Just like Navy SEALs aren't Zip-Loc containers, or sea mammals.
-Who's Osprem?
A deity in D&D, Greyhawk specifically. You can replace Osprem with any deity whose clergy doesn't have a specific title.
-It has nothing to do with real life. It has to do with Dungeons and Dragons. As I pointed out, a requirement of the Paladin is to be Lawful Good. Thus, according to the logic proof, anything that is not Lawful Good is not a Paladin. Paladins of X do not meet the requirements of being Paladins, thus, while they have the word 'Paladin' in their title, they are not Paladins. Just like Navy SEALs aren't Zip-Loc containers, or sea mammals.
A paladin variant. They are variants of the PHB paladin class. Thus, they still are paladins, even though their alignment is not LG.
A deity in D&D, Greyhawk specifically. You can replace Osprem with any deity whose clergy doesn't have a specific title.
-That they don't have a specific title is a problem with Greyhawk, then.
A paladin variant. They are variants of the PHB paladin class. Thus, they still are paladins, even though their alignment is not LG.
-By definition, 'variant' means different. Paladin variants are different than Paladins. Logic tells us that something cannot be something and it's opposite at the same time. Thus, Paladin Variants cannot be Paladin Variants and Paladins at the same time. They are Paladin Variants, not Paladins.
-Is everyone else understanding?
-That they don't have a specific title is a problem with Greyhawk, then.
However, by your reasoning, priests of Osprem are not actually priests at all, even though they are priests... of Osprem.
-By definition, 'variant' means different. Paladin variants are different than Paladins. Logic tells us that something cannot be something and it's opposite at the same time. Thus, Paladin Variants cannot be Paladin Variants and Paladins at the same time. They are Paladin Variants, not Paladins.
Now, let's see...
not agreeing or conforming; differing, esp. from something of the same general kind.
a different spelling, pronunciation, or form of the same word: “Vehemency” is a variant of “vehemence.”
Deviating from a standard, usually by only a slight difference.
Something that differs in form only slightly from something else, as a different spelling or pronunciation of the same word.
something a little different from others of the same type
A different kind of paladin. A variant of a paladin. It's very simple.
I do. A very bad idea to change the meaning of a class to fit different alignments. With the transition from 2E to 3E they changed the alignments for rangers and druids. Now they are taking the step forward. Why not settle for a word that still means holy warrior (regardless of the alignment of the deity) and then go from there, using Paladin for LG characters. Maybe name it Knight for example.
Since we're going the dictionary route,
Paladin:
A strong supporter or defender of a cause: "the paladin of plain speaking" (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.)
someone who fights for a cause
Not limited to a holy (good) warrior.
1. any one of the 12 legendary peers or knightly champions in attendance on Charlemagne.
2. any knightly or heroic champion.
3. any determined advocate or defender of a noble cause.
On the same page, the American Heritage dictionary says:
1. A paragon of chivalry; a heroic champion.
2. A strong supporter or defender of a cause: "the paladin of plain speaking" (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.)
3. Any of the 12 peers of Charlemagne's court.
A different kind of paladin. A variant of a paladin. It's very simple.
-The laws of logic state that something cannot be the same and different at the same time, again. Something cannot be a 'Different kind of Paladin' and a 'Paladin' at the same time. Thus, 'Different kinds of Paladins' are not 'Paladins'.
Since we're going the dictionary route,
Paladin:
A strong supporter or defender of a cause: "the paladin of plain speaking" (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.)
someone who fights for a cause
Not limited to a holy (good) warrior.
-We don't care about the "real world" definition, though. We want the D&D definition, since this is D&D here. And, the D&D definition of Paladin specifically says the character must be 'Lawful' and 'Good'. Thus, Paladins are limited to holy (good) warriors.
-The laws of logic state that something cannot be the same and different at the same time, again. Something cannot be a 'Different kind of Paladin' and a 'Paladin' at the same time. Thus, 'Different kinds of Paladins' are not 'Paladins'.
Yeah, for example, conjurers are a different kind of wizard than necromancers. They're not really wizards, though, right?
Or lions are a different kind of big cat than the tiger, but they're not actually big cats...
-We don't care about the "real world" definition, though. We want the D&D definition, since this is D&D here. And, the D&D definition of Paladin specifically says the character must be 'Lawful' and 'Good'. Thus, Paladins are limited to holy (good) warriors.
You'll notice that I was replying to redrake's post that was about changing the name of the class to better represent what paladins in D&D are in 4e. I pointed out that even dictionaries support the concept of a paladin that isn't necessarily a "good warrior".
But even then, the vast majority of the time they are. The dictionary lists noble and heroic warrior definitions first and then two out of three definitions per source indicating the goodly holy warrior connotation.
Yes, but I think we've already established that the dictionary definition of paladin doesn't necessarily affect the definition of paladin in D&D.
Yeah, for example, conjurers are a different kind of wizard than necromancers. They're not really wizards, though, right?
-Sure they are. The rules of D&D say that they are. And, in order to be specialists in a field, one already needs to be a member of the field.
I pointed out that even dictionaries support the concept of a paladin that isn't necessarily a "good warrior".
-Of the six provided, four connotate some kind of goodly individual, as does the D&D definition.
As oppose to say the slowly becoming wholly neutral Mystra?
Mystra had her Chosen and the Magister, and tends to meddle in mortal affairs far more then she should. She is the Goddess of the weave, not mortal spellcasters. The Weave is gone now, and so is she, so now they can move in an uncaring god of all magic if they want.
The Weave complicated things too much - just look at all the various debates it sparks on these boards. It allowed Mystra to control the flow of power from a god to his/her followers. As a story element it was wonderful and full of flavor, but game mechanics-wise it was a nightmare.
For instance, back in the 2e days I had asked a question about if a mage character of mine traveled to Greyhawk, would he still be able to cast spells? After all, he'd be disconeccted from the weave. The official answer I got, which is confirmed by BOTH the Spelljammer and Planescape settings, is that a mage only needs to use the Weave on Toril - outside of Realmspace the spells wouldn't need the Weave because they would be working directly with 'raw magic'.
So.... if a mage's spells only need the weave when it's present, doesn't that mean the weave was completely useless?
And if Elminster and Khelben can cast spells with no problem on both Earth and Oerth (as they have in canon), then Elminster shouldn't be effected by the loss of the Weave AT ALL, nor should ANYONE else.
See what happens when you think too hard? The whole thing just doesn't make any sense.
-Sure they are. The rules of D&D say that they are. And, in order to be specialists in a field, one already needs to be a member of the field.
You ignored my "lion, tiger, big cat" example. Why is that?
By your logic, since a priest of Osprem is not a priest, a paladin of Tyr is not a paladin. However, that's not the case. Similar to the above, paladins of freedom or tyranny are a subset of "paladin", just like paladin of honor when using the variants. The definition of paladin is not restricted to the one in the PHB if the DM decides to use the variants found in the UA. UA offers the possibility of expanding the concept of a paladin in D&D. 4e embraces this idea in the core rules.
You ignored my "lion, tiger, big cat" example. Why is that?
-The same rules apply for the Conjurer/Necromancer/Wizard.
By your logic, since a priest of Osprem is not a priest, a paladin of Tyr is not a paladin.
-Sure they are, since Paladins of Tyr are Lawful and Good. Thus, if they are Lawful and Good, they are Paladins.
The definition of paladin is not restricted to the one in the PHB if the DM decides to use the variants found in the UA.
-Which is the crux of all of this. To many of us, it is, and that's that.
-As I stated earlier, would a "Barbarian of Peace", who cannot rage, fight or do anything else the stereotypical D&D Barbarian can do, but can "lay the smack down" against stupidity by getting multiple bonuses to his/her reading/writing , be considered Barbarian, simply because of the name?
-As I stated earlier, would a "Barbarian of Peace", who cannot rage, fight or do anything else the stereotypical D&D Barbarian can do, but can "lay the smack down" against stupidity by getting multiple bonuses to his/her reading/writing , be considered Barbarian, simply because of the name?
Yes!
Because this "barbarian of peace" expands the concept of a barbarian, but only when the particular concept is adopted. Similarly, when a DM decides to allow the paladin variants from UA, he's expanding the concept of a paladin in D&D - in his game. (Again, 4e does this in core.)
Yes!
-What you see as "expand", I, and many others see as "drastically altering, enough such that it warrants it's own class/Prc/etc". I see what Dan meant by 'liberal'.
So you're actually bothered that somewhere out there, people are playing with paladins that aren't LG? Even though this doesn't, in any way at all, influence, touch, or affect your game?
-I don't care that there are people who play non-LG Paladins. What I don't like the "misinformation campaign", and general and blatent disregard for what the Paladin has come to be known to be that causes people to think that Paladins can be anything other than LG.
The Paladin is an Iconic D&D class - with each new edition of the game they toss away more and more of it's icons. By changing it to 'any alignment' they taken out much of the original class's special flavor.
So the problem is not with our games - we do what we like anyway - but with THEIR rules. Its starting to not even loook like D&D anymore.
I mean, what's the big deal? It's your game, your rules. If 5e says that paladins are now arcane spellcasters who play banjo, who cares? If I like the rest of the rules and decide to play 5e, I can just rename it or use as is - especially if it's a book that offers alternatives to earlier concepts!
But if you don't like that some people believe that paladins can be other than LG, doesn't that imply that you're actually bothered that they're playing ones (because they think it's just fine)?
-I'm indifferent to the people who play non-LG Paladins. They can do whatever they want to do. Does that stop me from thinking that they are..."wrong", for lack of better words? No, not really. But, do I campaign for them to stop? No, that I don't do.
I mean, what's the big deal? It's your game, your rules. If 5e says that paladins are now arcane spellcasters who play banjo, who cares?
-Me, because I know that that isn't what Paladin are.
-Me, because I know that that isn't what Paladin are.
But that's just one definition of a paladin.
But that's just one definition of a paladin.
-Just taking it from the PHB and, what, years and years of established usage?
Yes, I know, but things change.
-Over time, with reason, not randomly (except for mutations).
-Just taking it from the PHB and, what, years and years of established usage?
for what it's worth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin
for what it's worth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin
-Yes, we've seen that before. Pay special attention to the "Present Day" usage.
(Besides, it says "usually".)
I could go edit the page and add Unearthed Arcana as my reference. ;)
-Well, that would be dishonest, then. :P
Nope, because to outsiders, if it's published in a D&D book, it's D&D! :D
-Are we outsiders (as in not the D&D term, of course)?
For example, you could have something like,
"In D&D, the definition of a paladin varies according to edition. From 1e to 2e and early 3e, they are always Lawful Good. In later 3e, the option to allow paladins of other alignment extremes appears. 4e further expands this paladin concept."
Nope, but you'd strive to present an objective view of the matter.
For example, you could have something like,
"In D&D, the definition of a paladin varies according to edition. From 1e to 2e and early 3e, they are always Lawful Good. In later 3e, the option to allow paladins of other alignment extremes appears. 4e further expands this paladin concept."
-That works, there.
-4e should just change the name to "Crusader", "Champion", or whatever, so we don't have to have these long-winded debates that make me lose sleep.
And for the record, I'd be fine naming the class champion or whatever. I just don't mind paladin either.
I'm losing sleep too!
-Yeah, well it's not at late there as it is/was here.
I think this could be a middle ground. Start as a LG paladin at level 1 and once you change your alignment your title can change to Fallen Paladin with some evil deity as patron.
Or lions are a different kind of big cat than the tiger, but they're not actually big cats...
A better example: a mountain lion is not truly a lion.
Bel
I'm going to miss the old notion of Fallen Paladin. If you want to be an evil paladin, you get to be a Fallen.
I think this could be a middle ground. Start as a LG paladin at level 1 and once you change your alignment your title can change to Fallen Paladin with some evil deity as patron.
Yeah, I can sympathize with that. Switching from a LG champion to a NE one doesn't quite have the same drama that a "Fallen Paladin" does. Then again, you'll just have to provide your own fluff.
For the record, I don't think the variant paladins appeared only since UA. IIRC 3.0 already had the holy liberator and the blackguard, and I think 2nd edition had anti-paladins as well somewhere among the splatbooks.
Anyway, how did this thing get into paladins? Did someone mention that paladins in FR will be able as, as a friend once caustically said, "get their mojo from worshipping their shoe like in Eberron" or some such?
*****slap (Really, this one means it's opposite. If this were a real compound word, it would mean that an angry, mean woman just physically assaulted someone.)
pimpin (This word now means 'selling' as opposed to the purveying of prostitute flesh. Is it wrong? Sure. But people use it.)
ho (This word was originally used as part of cheers. Now it means something entirely different.)
down with it (Technically, this would mean "On the ground or below it," not "I agree with you.")
All this new definition of Paladin does is make the game more World of Warcrafty, and that's not something I really want to tolerate. Bad definitions lead to bad writing, and we already have far too much of that.
Blah blah blah, yeah yeah, I don't care I'm bored.:P
To me, the Paladin will always be the shiney example of the virtuos chivalric knight, no matter what some uncreative bean-counter decides to publish about him. No amount of sourcebooks will change my opinion at this point.
But, I also remember when everyone hated Drow and the last thing someone wanted to be was a dark Elf. So, let them screw-up a whole 'nother generation again, I could care less. In my mind, the iconic races/classes will always be what they were.
What Rino said... even if her sadism scares me a bit...
And what I left unsaid regarding what I thought about Hadrune's death might have scared you even more.
Regarding the debate on the "paladin" name:
Blah blah blah, yeah yeah, I don't care I'm bored.:P
-Whatever. I had a good time.
-Whatever. I had a good time.
I just couldn't help myself.
They came alive for me in a lot of ways, sparking my imagination to create alter-egos that emulated their exploits and deeds, to create stories for my players that inspired them and let them live out the same fantasies. In short, to role-play. To me, the story mattered far more than anything else, the sense of wonder and excitement that they led to, the sheer joy of triumphing over evil and depravity, something that captured the agony of defeat and the ecstasy of success hard earned. It brought color to an otherwise relatively gray life that was hardly what I would have liked to be doing. Given the choice, I’d have much rather been hurling fireballs and swinging swords, instead of stuck in an office or behind a desk, which I think is probably true of most of us who enjoy gaming. It is always a bittersweet thing to fold up the DMs screen, neatly stack the papers, and put away the maps for me, since it means I have to go back to the real world at that point. I’d give just about anything to live in the Realms to be honest, at least as I view them… with its romance, its tragedy, its humor, and its adventure. It lets me forget about the cares of the world for at least a little while, to go to a place where I don’t have to worry about terrorists, or global warming, or coming down with some bizarre affliction because of something I ingested, or any of the other things we’re faced with daily. To be able to look towards others, and accept them for their flaws, see them as heroes, and not have Fox or CNN tell us what a horrible person they really are when they think no one’s looking, since our society seems to have a great love of tearing down heroes because they’re human with all the strength and frailty that comes with that.
So the reasons I loathe the changes coming with 4e, beyond the mechanical details I dislike, the changes to the lore for what feels like arbitrary reasons, and what I feel to be caving in to misguided perception, is that I feel like I’m having characters I admired and felt were fine examples of all-too human heroes ripped away from me, to be discarded in what seems to be a cheap fashion, to appease some mob that’s screaming for their blood, demanding they be pilloried in the marketplace just for existing.
Some have said that they interfere with their stories, that they overshadow the players, that they are somehow a hindrance to their enjoyment of the Realms… I disagree. Some will tell me that I can always ignore their deaths, carry on with the storylines I wish to and ignore the changes… and I very well could. But somewhere in the back of my mind, I’m still feeling like I just watched a person I loved get tossed into a screaming mob who rips them apart for no reason I can fathom. I’m almost certain that some will say that I’m being a troll (or even a grognard perhaps, if I'm lucky) for voicing yet another complaint about the evil of WotC and how I should just shut up and move on… and to them I say thank you for voicing your opinion, kindly move on, and go do something else if this bothers you so much. This is simply how I feel about the matter.
New heroes to identify with could be the way for you, Stig. A changing of the guard by letting the older shining examples of true heroes in the realms be replaced by new faces of a next generation of the people of the realms. Your words made your complaint crystalclear and I feel your pain though.
Some have said that they interfere with their stories, that they overshadow the players, that they are somehow a hindrance to their enjoyment of the Realms…
The thing is, as I've observed before, no one does say that. It's always notional other people who suffer this: those who claim the 'problem' have cleverly got around it, usually by using the characters the way the sources actually suggest.
The thing is, as I've observed before, no one does say that. It's always notional other people who suffer this: those who claim the 'problem' have cleverly got around it, usually by using the characters the way the sources actually suggest.
To put it another way...when was the last time one of these complainers gave a true (not hypothetical) example of these NPCs having ruined someone's game?
However, I think Stigger is correct in the sense that some people probably feel that their PCs are overshadowed by the very existence of characters in the setting that are at a much higher level of power than they are, which goes right back to what I've said before about excessive egoism that some people seem to have (ie "I'm upset because I feel like my fresh-off-the-farm lvl 1 character is a nobody if there are characters in the setting who are far more accomplished and experienced than he is.")
This, at least, makes me inclined to think that the problem is not an inherent hate of the very existence of iconic characters, because I certainly don't see similar attitudes in other game settings. Rather, I think it has more to do with the way that these characters have been (mis)used by (bad) DMs. If my experiences with the Forgotten Realms revolved around having my group or character continually upstaged by the DM's favorite NPC, I'd probably hold a grudge too. But that has nothing to do with the NPC, and everything to do with bad DMing, which is going to turn people off of the hobby one way or another - killing off the NPCs isn't going to solve it.
On the contrary, I've made extensive use of NPCs from the various novels, whether famous (the Seven Sisters, etc) to not as well known. They serve mainly as quest givers, sources of information, who provide cameos and adventure hooks. They turn to the PCs for help, because the PCs can do things they cannot, can be places they cannot.
You can have level 1 characters feel like heroes even in a world of epic characters - you just have to make sure they're getting their share of time in the spotlight.
You see, I could never level him like the others, because he was always too busy helping others - just like a Pally should. ;)
When a cry went out for help from some lowbie that needed help, SaintAzrael was there. When someone needed some healing or a curse lifted, but was stuck way out in the middle of a jungle somewhwhere, SaintAzrael would ride in on his shining steed and provide succor. Or, if someone just needed simple directions to a location, my Paladin would lead them true.
It was fun, and I enjoyed it, and people got to know me. Gear and level aren't everything unless you make it so. My wise-cracking Gnome that gave away free enchants (annoying the hell out of those who were selling them) was almost as well known, but he WAS level 60.
Its all about what you enjoy in a game, and I really feel sorry for people who thinks it's all about the 'rare' and 'epic' items.
And BTW Stigger, that was incredibly inciteful. The sad part is, all these changes they made to draw in the anti-FR crowd aren't going to work - they will find new ways to hate it (after all, it's FR). I fear that this will go down in gaming history as one of the biggest fiascos ever - but once again, I hope I am completely wrong.
I wasn't?
Oh, I mean, no, I wasn't trying to do anything of the sort... :D
Actually, I think trying to draw in the MMO crowd can work, although at best it will be a short term success. What I see are a lot of kids out there frustrated by the circumstances of their lives, who have all this rage over having no real control over their lives, and who are lashing out at anything they sense 'keeping them down'. They can't lash out at teachers, or administrators, or police, or their parents without serious consequences, but they can lash out at iconic characters who represent what those authority figures do in their lives. The problem comes in though, that after they've killed off those iconic figures, the problems in real life are still there, so they go looking for the next group to bring down until they actually manage to mature enough to deal with these feelings of rage and impotence in a more constructive manner.
I'd also say that "the MMO crowd" is a really large and diverse group. I don't believe that D&D is going to capture the entire casual audience the way WoW has, but I also think that there are a lot of potential new D&D (and FR for that matter) players within that group. The trick is to show them that it can be fun, and that it's worth their time - and a lot of that is going to be extremely dependent on the skill of the DM involved.
I also tend to agree with the opinion that the attempt to cater to the anti-FR will largely fail. I don't think that group is going to suddenly change their mind and love the setting, though they might 'hate it less'. Of course, that's just a guess on my part.
To put it another way...when was the last time one of these complainers gave a true (not hypothetical) example of these NPCs having ruined someone's game?
However, I think Stigger is correct in the sense that some people probably feel that their PCs are overshadowed by the very existence of characters in the setting that are at a much higher level of power than they are, which goes right back to what I've said before about excessive egoism that some people seem to have (ie "I'm upset because I feel like my fresh-off-the-farm lvl 1 character is a nobody if there are characters in the setting who are far more accomplished and experienced than he is.")
I see your point, Rinonalyrna, but I don't think that's all to it. IMO nearly all settings have high-level NPC - as in, characters of high CR. What may be different in the Realms it that a sizable part of these characters are humans - or at least humanoids. I actually considered it quite interesting - the idea that the greatest threats may come not from dragon lords or archfiends, or any of the other creatures in the epic level handbook, but from those just like you.
It can be a little atypical for a high fantasy setting, but I never found it particularly disturbing. At least, as long as dragons, demons, and the like can also pick up a character level or two - for if a human archmage is fearsome, it chills the mind to imagine what a dragon one can be.
This, at least, makes me inclined to think that the problem is not an inherent hate of the very existence of iconic characters, because I certainly don't see similar attitudes in other game settings. Rather, I think it has more to do with the way that these characters have been (mis)used by (bad) DMs. If my experiences with the Forgotten Realms revolved around having my group or character continually upstaged by the DM's favorite NPC, I'd probably hold a grudge too. But that has nothing to do with the NPC, and everything to do with bad DMing, which is going to turn people off of the hobby one way or another - killing off the NPCs isn't going to solve it.
You can have level 1 characters feel like heroes even in a world of epic characters - you just have to make sure they're getting their share of time in the spotlight.
-Yes, we've pinned down the fact that it's not the fault of the setting, but individual DMs for the commonly cited "problems" with the setting. In order to effectivley "fix" this, I know I don't think that an entire facelift of the setting is necessary. The same problems will still exist and resurface after a while.
-When a teacher is teaching the subject incorrectly, obviously the students are going to fails their tests and not grasp the subject. When this happens, the schoolboard shouldn't drastically retool the curriculum. They need to do whatever they need to do to make sure that the teachers are teaching the subject right.
-I like what either Stigger or Faraer said on this topic. To paraphrase, a "DM's Guide to the Realms" needs to include tips on running a campaign in the Realms.
This reminds me of that guide on what to do if the Chosen of Mystra are a problem for your campaign - iirc by the Symbul. Is there a sticky for articles like that?
-Not an official one, no. But, many people have it in their signatures.
This isn't really a spoiler about the book, since it occurs very early in the 'plot exposition' part, but I'll cover it just to be safe (and if I mess anything up, I'm posting from memory here, so any bear with me).
Show
Near the beginning of the book, one character is explaining to another the nature of the Keepers of the Cerulean Sign, a Star Elf Order that fights against Abominations, a la Far Realm types like the Aboleth. During her explanation, she talks about how the world was once pristine and pure, back at the beginning of time, and how these elder races, including the Aboleths, tried to colonize it, but were defeated, either driven back to their world, or forced into the depths far below:
"...the Cerulean Sign was forged to oppose creatures that oozed down from mad realms to colonize Abeir-Toril. To a large extent, those long-vanished defenders of the virgin world succeeded. Abominations, both godlike and inconsequential, were pushed back. Abeir was forgotten. Mortal races eventually inherited the earth."
There could be a number of interpretations drawn from this - it could refer to a parallel world or reality that was once coterminous with the Realms (thinking on the lines of the Forbidding of the Shannara novels here), or it could refer to the Deep Underdark, or worse. It is also mentioned, though, that the Aboleths we know are only minor compared to the true enemy.
"...the Cerulean Sign was forged to oppose creatures that oozed down from mad realms to colonize Abeir-Toril. To a large extent, those long-vanished defenders of the virgin world succeeded. Abominations, both godlike and inconsequential, were pushed back. Abeir was forgotten. Mortal races eventually inherited the earth."
There could be a number of interpretations drawn from this - it could refer to a parallel world or reality that was once coterminous with the Realms (thinking on the lines of the Forbidding of the Shannara novels here), or it could refer to the Deep Underdark, or worse. It is also mentioned, though, that the Aboleths we know are only minor compared to the true enemy.
To put it another way...when was the last time one of these complainers gave a true (not hypothetical) example of these NPCs having ruined someone's game?
However, I think Stigger is correct in the sense that some people probably feel that their PCs are overshadowed by the very existence of characters in the setting that are at a much higher level of power than they are, which goes right back to what I've said before about excessive egoism that some people seem to have (ie "I'm upset because I feel like my fresh-off-the-farm lvl 1 character is a nobody if there are characters in the setting who are far more accomplished and experienced than he is.")
I agree -- and I wish to add that in my experience it's these (egoistical or even "megalomanical") players who often seek to "dominate" the setting and abuse their powers. I've had some players who used RPGs (regardless of their character's class and alignment) as a way to "try out" things they would never do in RL (such as randomly killing a man, or breaking into a merchant's home). Some players also liked to intentionally test my patience to see where I'd "draw the line" (i.e. have the PCs thrown into jail).
I also remember reading that Ed has had some problematic players in his group, which is also hinted at in the 1st Edition FR Boxed Set (there was something about DM feeling free to add some levels to any NPC, if the players say that "Hey, let's go to Bugtown -- its mayor is only a 5th level fighter!"). This is also quite evident in the Knights of Myth Drannor novels -- some of the Knights even try to kill their fellow adventurers to get their stuff. These players may actually be the main reason for so many high-level NPCs in the setting -- not to mention why almost every innkeeper is a retired adventurer and half of the merchants have golems or flying weapons or several wands to protect their shops (especially in Waterdeep and Cormyr).
Some players also liked to intentionally test my patience to see where I'd "draw the line" (i.e. have the PCs thrown into jail).
-I've had to do that before...
This reminds me of that guide on what to do if the Chosen of Mystra are a problem for your campaign - iirc by the Symbul. Is there a sticky for articles like that?
the Simbul...
Excellent article, despite the rules Hitlerism.
Anyway, I'd suggest picking it up and reading it for more information, or more possible indications as to what this means.
Sounds like Abeir is Eberron's Xoriat all over again.
Sounds like Abeir is Eberron's Xoriat all over again.
-And Xoriat is...?
-I've had to do that before...
Normally, if it goes to far I have a party of higher level adventurers hunt down the PCs as a quest to end an evil in the land.
Normally, if it goes to far I have a party of higher level adventurers hunt down the PCs as a quest to end an evil in the land.
-My players got thrown in jail. I wasn't too experienced as a DM at the time, so I was a little shellshocked. When I finally reconciled the plot I had in store with what their particular hijinks, they broke out of jail, and fled into the ocean using Quaals' Feather Token (Boat), with no map, and no one with any skill in sailing/navigating/anything relevant. When the magic in the boat ended, and it disappeared, they were left in about 30 miles out to sea. I had a pirate ship rescue them, though at this point, half of my players staged a "mutiny" because I wouldn't declare a "Do Over", and left the game. I just recently reintroduced those characters (Paladin/Cleric/Monk) as the BBEGs of my campaign (Blackguard/Cleric/Monk, all worshiping Eltab).
-My players got thrown in jail. I wasn't too experienced as a DM at the time, so I was a little shellshocked. When I finally reconciled the plot I had in store with what their particular hijinks, they broke out of jail, and fled into the ocean using Quaals' Feather Token (Boat), with no map, and no one with any skill in sailing/navigating/anything relevant. When the magic in the boat ended, and it disappeared, they were left in about 30 miles out to sea. I had a pirate ship rescue them, though at this point, half of my players staged a "mutiny" because I wouldn't declare a "Do Over", and left the game. I just recently reintroduced those characters (Paladin/Cleric/Monk) as the BBEGs of my campaign (Blackguard/Cleric/Monk, all worshiping Eltab).
I admit, I get some perverse joy out of watching the look on my players faces when I declare that the paladin that they are now fighting just successfully used a smite against them.
Hmmm... never had much of a problem with any of the players I've run into... except for one, but he turned out to be a satanist (as in the quasi-LeVay Church of variety) who was hoping to turn us into a coven (seriously, no joke). Real whackjob that one...
It's just a form of hedonism. Provided he wasn't psycho, I actually wouldn't have been too thrown off by this. Then again, as a youth, I looked into demonology (keys of Solomon and all), and considered myself both a Wiccan and a follower of Asatru, for a time.
Now I control reality WITHOUT asking deities for aid. Mwahaha.
It's just a form of hedonism. Provided he wasn't psycho, I actually wouldn't have been too thrown off by this. Then again, as a youth, I looked into demonology (keys of Solomon and all), and considered myself both a Wiccan and a follow of Asatru, for a time.
Now I control reality WITHOUT asking deities for aid. Mwahaha.
Like a true Hermetic :D. I'm studying the Corpus Hermeticum in my free time and reading other things related. It's amazing how advanced was the Hermetic philosophy for that age.
I love Houses Bonisagus, Tytalus, and Thig/Xaos.
It's just a form of hedonism. Provided he wasn't psycho, I actually wouldn't have been too thrown off by this. Then again, as a youth, I looked into demonology (keys of Solomon and all), and considered myself both a Wiccan and a follower of Asatru, for a time.
Now I control reality WITHOUT asking deities for aid. Mwahaha.
Nope, he was the psycho variety, didn't phrase that well up there though I see looking back at it, and left out a rather key word for some reason... didn't think much of the Satanist thing, since yeah, they are relatively harmless, and can be kinda fun at times even. But the wanting to start sacrificing small animals before sessions, and pass their blood around in a cup for our pleasure and consumption kinda said to me he was going way beyond the pale and needed to be gone.
Oh, and Iteration X (revised) was far more to my liking... though I wish they had finished the revised Convention books line. I'd have so probably ended up as a NWO type...
Info provided from Rich Baker here.
You know, the idea of Sehanine being the elven name for Selune seems alright, but demoting Sehanine (one of the more influential powers, IMO, in the elven pantheon) to an avatar of Selune? I'm not sure.
Also, it seems that the Chosen and other High level NPC's are going to be gone, as the goal is "to remove them." Yeah I know, most already knew this... but as Rino put it "Yuck! So blunt, such a turn off."
Info provided here.
I'm really going to try and not express my bitterness about this, but man.... I'm really going to miss Alustriel and Qilue should they get the boot.
So generally, I'm posting here to express my "discontent" with some of the new developments. *sigh* Must remain civil. *gag*
I'm really going to try and not express my bitterness about this, but man.... I'm really going to miss Alustriel and Qilue should they get the boot.
So generally, I'm posting here to express my "discontent" with some of the new developments. *sigh* Must remain civil. *gag*
I know.
Really, I can accept the fact that these changes will happen, and I've been pretty calm about it for a while now, for the most part, but this new podcast made me feel upset all over again.So whats everyone's opinions on having Selune and Sehanine connected in some way, and having some of the Seldarine become "saints" instead of true deities?
Info provided from Rich Baker here.
You know, the idea of Sehanine being the elven name for Selune seems alright, but demoting Sehanine (one of the more influential powers, IMO, in the elven pantheon) to an avatar of Selune? I'm not sure.
Also, it seems that the Chosen and other High level NPC's are going to be gone, as the goal is "to remove them." Yeah I know, most already knew this... but as Rino put it "Yuck! So blunt, such a turn off."
Info provided here.
My Response:
:raincloud 
:surrender I know.
Yeah. The podcast did leave me with a very uncomfortable feeling.
Perkins didn't seem at ease. The way he evaded the questions made me a bit sick. He doesn't seem to enjoy himself when getting to talk about the realms. This is largely because of the communities reaction I guess.
I did kinda like the news on the revealing of whole of fearun, including Zakhara, Kara-tur and Maztica and other new areas Ed is working on.
I hope the information in the coming months will rekindle my optimism, because I can't help but falter now... Rich's recent responses are helping though.
Hermeticism for the win.
I love Houses Bonisagus, Tytalus, and Thig/Xaos.
Houses Tremere and Bonisagus *ROCK*! (sorry, I've used that word way too often lately and now I just *have* to include it in every post! ;))
You know, the idea of Sehanine being the elven name for Selune seems alright, but demoting Sehanine (one of the more influential powers, IMO, in the elven pantheon) to an avatar of Selune? I'm not sure.
I got the impression that Selune and Sehanine are the same being, not the other being a mere avatar. Aspect, not avatar. Is Sehanine an aspect of Selune's, or the other way around?
Shevarash, Solonor Thelandira, Erevan Ilesere, and Fenmarel Mestarine are all a bit more hero-god than proper deities, especially Shevarash and Solonor. Depends on how you want to define a deity, I suppose. They're all extremely powerful spirits, no doubt about it - powerful enough to have actual churches of their own? Maybe, maybe not.
I still want Angharradh to stay though.
My Response:
I'd just like to add a few things to Hawk's response.
:headexplo :hoppingmaSo whats everyone's opinions on having Selune and Sehanine connected in some way, and having some of the Seldarine become "saints" instead of true deities?
The idea upsets me so much I can't even think about it.
The more "news" they bring the more I think 4E is not even going to be worth the time to read the rules. This is not exactly 4E. It sounds more like 1E of the New Forgotten Realms. They were better off by simply creating a new setting.
So whats everyone's opinions on having Selune and Sehanine connected in some way,
Depends on the nature of the connection.
and having some of the Seldarine become "saints" instead of true deities?
I rather like the Seldarine as they are. I'm not sure why they would "need" simplification. They're a small racial pantheon already. What's there to fix?
The idea upsets me so much I can't even think about it.
I seccond that, the Seldarine are NOT related or aspects/avatars of pityfull human gods!
The idea upsets me so much I can't even think about it.
-Agreed. I was thinking about maybe picking up the 4e FR stuff, but that just made up my mind- it's not for me.
-So, Sehanine Moonbow is Selûne, eh? That means that the common creation myth, that is accepted as fact is wrong, since Sehanine Moonbow is a multispheric deity that came from somewhere other than Realmspace.
-Agreed. I was thinking about maybe picking up the 4e FR stuff, but that just made up my mind- it's not for me.
-So, Sehanine Moonbow is Selûne, eh? That means that the common creation myth, that is accepted as fact is wrong, since Sehanine Moonbow is a multispheric deity that came from somewhere other than Realmspace.
ERGO, Shar is not a primordial godess, therefore it is ok to kill her and not have any RSE. CHECK :D Shar goes down on my realms.
ERGO, Shar is not a primordial godess, therefore it is ok to kill her and not have any RSE. CHECK :D Shar goes down on my realms.
-Well, Richard Baker didn't outright say that Selûne = Sehanine, since he was just giving theoretical examples. But still, the fact that they are changing the Seldarine worries me. Now these changes are hitting too close to home.
-Well, Richard Baker didn't outright say that Selûne = Sehanine, since he was just giving theoretical examples. But still, the fact that they are changing the Seldarine worries me. Now these changes are hitting too close to home.
For me the hit home a long time ago. Almost from the begining of the announcement of changes. I take a holistic view for the realms and when they change something (even if It's not one part of what I like/know more) I feel they are tearing down the house.
And if they are going to do that to Sehanine then I have no barriers to stop me from killing Shar because I have the perception that Shar is everywhere and always makes the evil guys to feel small and week beside her, she impeedes bad guys from shaking the realms. She has so many powerfull followers that other Bad Guys can't do anything without hiting a Shaarist plot. She makes the rest of the BBEG irrelevant.
How does it feel now for the powerfull good characters bashers that their logic can be applied to powerfull bad characters too?
"We're sorry. You worship Fred instead of Bob!" really won't cut it for my PC's, which is why the shrinking pantheon sucks for them. And I guarantee you for all people who aren't running new campaigns, it will suck for them, too.
Long live the Red Knight, and Eilistraee, and other deities whose PC's have clerics too numerous to mention. We all think it sucks. Every single last one of us. This is like being made to eat dirt in a fancy french restaurant.
The Divine issues, for me, are the most criminal things in the new edition.
The Divine issues, for me, are the most criminal things in the new edition.
-If there was a gratuitous need, and it made sense, I'd be like, "Well...Okay...". But, in this case, there is no real need to change the Seldarine, and it is very seemingly random. I wonder how other settings are going to react and/or adapt when, say, suddenly Sehanine Moonbow comes from Realmspace, or something to that effect? Oh, wait...There are no more multispheric deities anymore. Forgot about that one. Nice...
-Agreed. I was thinking about maybe picking up the 4e FR stuff, but that just made up my mind- it's not for me.
-So, Sehanine Moonbow is Selûne, eh? That means that the common creation myth, that is accepted as fact is wrong, since Sehanine Moonbow is a multispheric deity that came from somewhere other than Realmspace.
Well, they are quite close, but it really plays tricks with cosmologies. Personally, I could see it either as a) Selune's worship was adopted by the elves on Toril and they recognized her as their goddess kind of like Tymora for the halflings or b) there was a Sehanine, but for some reason she merged with Selune - say to balance to power of the deity of Darkness, Shar.
@Alediran: Shar having that many minions? Strange, I thought her share of cultists is quite small for a deity of her status and especially accomplishments. I'm more surprised how she seems to overshadow all the other deities in her schemes. I mean, when was the last time Talos had a serious achievement?
@Alediran: Shar having that many minions? Strange, I thought her share of cultists is quite small for a deity of her status and especially accomplishments. I'm more surprised how she seems to overshadow all the other deities in her schemes. I mean, when was the last time Talos had a serious achievement?
I was applying the Mystra and powerfull good characters' bashers logic for Shar, their favorite godess: "I feel that Shar overshadows other Evil gods and I can't DM a story without one of ther followers showing their face and killing my BBEG NPCs that don't worshipp her"
Shar "overshadows" them quite literally, too. *hee hee*
Yes, I forgot to say: pun intended.
I really LIKED Shar before 3E got a hold of her.
Just an offhand thought. :D
"Emo Sharran" almost became a cliché on a few of the servers, even... and ultimately, a lot of them really did not strike me as being terribly good at being either evil, or Sharran, for that matter.
-If you read some of the novels, many Sharrans aren't terribly good at being evil. Look at the duo of Sharrans from...The Temptation of Elminster, I believe.
-If you read some of the novels, many Sharrans aren't terribly good at being evil. Look at the duo of Sharrans from...The Temptation of Elminster, I believe.
I'm not sure it's accurate to call them Sharran, despite them being Shar worshippers and members of the church. They always simply seemed to be nothing more than chattle for the priestess to enjoy tormenting and sending on suicidal, sure to fail missions. Much like the numerous priests and faithful whose sole purpose was to have their head lopped off and tossed into a fire to keep an avatar of Mystra imprisoned.
I'm not sure it's accurate to call them Sharran, despite them being Shar worshippers and members of the church.
-That's the definition of a Sharran.
-That's the definition of a Sharran.
I was thinking just that "well...that's pretty much what it means really...."
I'm making a distinction between a Sharran, and a sharran. The high priestess scary lady, she'd be capital S type. The noodle brained ones would be the lowercase type. As such, they wouldn't wouldn't be a very accurate view of how sucky Sharrans are at being evil, since the really successful Sharran are all but unknown
Meh...it all makes sense in my cobwebby mind....
I was thinking just that "well...that's pretty much what it means really...."
I'm making a distinction between a Sharran, and a sharran. The high priestess scary lady, she'd be capital S type. The noodle brained ones would be the lowercase type. As such, they wouldn't wouldn't be a very accurate view of how sucky Sharrans are at being evil, since the really successful Sharran are all but unknown
Meh...it all makes sense in my cobwebby mind....
-Ah, uppercase and lowercase. Alright, that works.
It might have something to do with people who played BG2 and liked Viconia. She's a drow and worships Shar.:D
But in spite of being a cleric, she rarely ever even talked about serving Shar. The vast majority of her dialogue had to do with her being a drow.
I was thinking just that "well...that's pretty much what it means really...."
I'm making a distinction between a Sharran, and a sharran. The high priestess scary lady, she'd be capital S type. The noodle brained ones would be the lowercase type. As such, they wouldn't wouldn't be a very accurate view of how sucky Sharrans are at being evil, since the really successful Sharran are all but unknown
Meh...it all makes sense in my cobwebby mind....
So is Karsus Pawn of Shar one of the "noodle brained" ones or does he get a capital S? ;) :P :evillaugh
So now Shar tastes like Tofu, also.
This is really starting to become a circus. I never thought I'd want to buy a book just so I could burn it and upload it to YouTube.
And getting me to talk about Book Burning? That's a whole different ball of wax.
So, on a basic level, WotSC can go ahead and kill gods like Helm or Oghma. Once 4E gets released we can resurrect them.:D
So is Karsus Pawn of Shar one of the "noodle brained" ones or does he get a capital S? ;) :P :evillaugh
He is an elaborate illusion of foul propaganda!
I'd give it a s at most. Ack...mixing Karsus and Shar into the same username...
He is an elaborate illusion of foul propaganda!
I'd give it a s at most. Ack...mixing Karsus and Shar into the same username...
Sorry,good guess, but Illusion is one of my prohibited schools. KPoS was a unique construct. I applied a liberal dose of heavy magic to a large chunk of onyx. I carved it to resemble you, and summoned a shadow elemental to provide the life force. Bamph... KPoS was born.
Now that I am thinking about it. Lots of characters in the Realms universe are 'Pawns of Shar' these days. Cyric is a pawn of Shar, Bane stole the tablets of fate, the Shadovar are pawns of Shar...even AO was manipulated by Shar into elevating Cyric to godhood. Hmm... AO Pawn of Shar :evillaughWarning the title Pawn of Shar is a registered trademark of Fingoldfin Inc. Use of Pawn of Shar designation without the permission of Fingoldfin may result in
and because I can't really do anything to stop you. Oh well.Prawn of Shar...
Almost reminds me of the plots one used to see in pro-wrestling... only those were at least somewhat more coherent. Gods how I detested those shows...
Tyr: "Helm! Tymora is my woman! I challenge you to match for her! I will RULE YOU! In the RING! This SUNDAY!! IN A CAGE!!! BE THERE!!!! OH YEAH!!!!!!!!"
Somehow I need to work in a midget, I just couldn't figure out how.
Tyr: "Helm! Tymora is my woman! I challenge you to match for her! I will RULE YOU! In the RING! This SUNDAY!! IN A CAGE!!! BE THERE!!!! OH YEAH!!!!!!!!"
Somehow I need to work in a midget, I just couldn't figure out how.
Brandobaris.
Now that I am thinking about it. Lots of characters in the Realms universe are 'Pawns of Shar' these days. Cyric is a pawn of Shar, Bane stole the tablets of fate, the Shadovar are pawns of Shar...even AO was manipulated by Shar into elevating Cyric to godhood. Hmm... AO Pawn of Shar
is about all I can say for that line of thought....:: Lights a lighter ::
-I rode throught the desert on a horse with no name...
doesnt it feel good to get out of the rain.....
thankyou now i have to find this song now.
lights a lighter.
shall we start a boycott thread due to no confidience or shall we wait for a while?
...AO Pawn of Shar
-Don't let EB know. ;)
Tyr: "Helm! Tymora is my woman! I challenge you to match for her! I will RULE YOU! In the RING! This SUNDAY!! IN A CAGE!!! BE THERE!!!! OH YEAH!!!!!!!!"
Somehow I need to work in a midget, I just couldn't figure out how.
-Laduger dies, right? There you go.
shall we start a boycott thread due to no confidience or shall we wait for a while?
-Wait a while.
Tyr: "Helm! Tymora is my woman! I challenge you to match for her! I will RULE YOU! In the RING! This SUNDAY!! IN A CAGE!!! BE THERE!!!! OH YEAH!!!!!!!!"
Somehow I need to work in a midget, I just couldn't figure out how.
AO: Your special guest referee will be TIAX. (Heh, heh, heh...let's see you get out of this one...)
Tiax: Helm and Tyr shall fight to the death! And in the end...TIAX SHALL RULE!
You know, they did say that the hand of Cyric was suspected in all of this...
Tyr: "Helm! Tymora is my woman! I challenge you to match for her! I will RULE YOU! In the RING! This SUNDAY!! IN A CAGE!!! BE THERE!!!! OH YEAH!!!!!!!!"
Somehow I need to work in a midget, I just couldn't figure out how.
I think Cyric would work just fine as a midget!:P
They can have a "Celestial Stairway" match... and Ao can put the Tablets of Fate into a briefcase suspended over the ring! :D
Ithe signs and portents aren't promising. The goddess of love and passion brokers an arranged marriage? Does that sound like the embodiment of love and passion? The god of justice kills his friend over adultery? Does that sound like the embodiment of justice? In other words, does it sound like the internal coherence of the Realms is being even vaguely honored?
Well said.
I am not very happy about most of what we're finding out. Yes, FR has a large pantheon. Personally, I like it. But, if the writers want to go about making it smaller, there are subtler, less haphazard ways of doing it than the ways we're hearing about... The methods should be more in keeping with the history and atmosphere of FR thus far, and have an amount of internal consistency.
Adultery is only a sin in the Realms if there's progeny.
There are a lot of people who are monogamous and faithful to each other in the Realms, but there are just as many couples (Or small groups) who have a much different view of sex.
That's the real reason why I don't like it. It doesn't fit the world's psychosexual morality level. Tymora, did you sleep with Helm?
Tymora: No.
Tyr: Okay.
The problem is this. This is how the conversation should have gone if the answer was YES.
Tyr: Did you sleep with Helm?
Tymora: Yes
Tyr: Was it fun?
Tymora: Yeah, but you do more with one arm than he does with two.
Tyr: Are you pregnant?
Tymora: No.
Tyr: All right, that's fine then. Let me show you what a one armed man can do.
THAT'S more sexual morality accurate for the Realms.
Now, if Tymora was PREGNANT, then Tyr would put on his armor and hack Helm's one eyed head off.
Most mortals will be "unaligned," whereas, to my knowledge, demons, angels, and other outsiders might retain theirs.
Info garnered from here.
Here is the product page.
I don't have a copy yet, but am looking forward to the artwork at least. I think doing away with alignments is... a mistake. *sigh* There goes all the Exalted and Vile feats.
Then again, everyone's perception of "good" and "evil" is tinted by personal experiences and beliefs, so maybe it won't play that big of a factor?
So much for variety...
Torm: Sir.....don't do that. *facepalms*
Which, according to Ed, is also horsecrap.
Adultery is only a sin in the Realms if there's progeny.
There are a lot of people who are monogamous and faithful to each other in the Realms, but there are just as many couples (Or small groups) who have a much different view of sex.
That's the real reason why I don't like it. It doesn't fit the world's psychosexual morality level.
THAT'S more sexual morality accurate for the Realms.
Now, if Tymora was PREGNANT, then Tyr would put on his armor and hack Helm's one eyed head off.
This is where we butt our heads up against the wall. Ed says these things, and unless or until they're contradicted in print, they're canon. However, just because his words are canon doesn't mean things won't later change in print (that's why there's the "unless or until it's contradicted in print" clause there).
Given how conservative the world is turning, I'm not surprised to see such old fashioned mores suddenly rearing their ugly heads in respect to the Realms.
[sarcasm]We wouldn't want to offend anyone, now would we?
Next project: desexifying art - can't even have a suggestion of *gasp* breasts![/sarcasm]I might add, the thought of Tymora with Tyr is laughable. Even if we ignore the idea that Tymora might have other lovers (that she's promiscuous hasn't actually been stated anywhere, there is a suggestion she and the halfling deity Brandobaris have had a fling - but that's not enough to jump to the conclusion that she is "promiscuous"), I still think her nature would drive Tyr up the wall and around the twist. Tymora is a trickster deity, and is prone to pulling pranks in an effort to make the more staid and stern of deities lighten up... I'm sure Tyr has been the target of more than one of her pranks.
I also find the thought of Tyr and Tymora together vaguely sickening, especially given what happened and the way it happened. I don't see Tymora agreeing to the marriage (and I don't see Sune trying to arrange such an absurd thing in the first place), and I certainly don't see her meekly going with Tyr to the House of the Triad without protest after Helm was killed. (I don't see her becoming involved with Helm for much the same reason I don't see her becoming involved with Tyr - see the paragraph above... Helm, too, is probably a regular target for her pranks.)
Only problem with it is that its more likely for Tymora to be rescuing Brandobaris. :D
I doubt Ill be by these forums again. Thanks for the years of interesting debates and discussions everyone. It was fun =0)
I doubt Ill be by these forums again. Thanks for the years of interesting debates and discussions everyone. It was fun =0)
Show
Making your way in the world today
Takes everything you've got;
Taking a break from all your worries
Sure would help a lot.
Wouldn't you like to get away?
All those night when you've got no lights,
The check is in the mail;
And your little angel
Hung the cat up by it's tail;
And your third fiance didn't show;
Sometimes you want to go
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
You want to be where you can see,
Our troubles are all the same;
You want to be where everybody knows your name.
Roll out of bed, Mr. Coffee's dead;
The morning's looking bright;
And your shrink ran off to Europe,
And didn't even write;
And your husband wants to be a girl;
Be glad there's one place in the world
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
You want to go where people know,
People are all the same;
You want to go where everybody knows your name.
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I96txc83ahE&NR=1
Takes everything you've got;
Taking a break from all your worries
Sure would help a lot.
Wouldn't you like to get away?
All those night when you've got no lights,
The check is in the mail;
And your little angel
Hung the cat up by it's tail;
And your third fiance didn't show;
Sometimes you want to go
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
You want to be where you can see,
Our troubles are all the same;
You want to be where everybody knows your name.
Roll out of bed, Mr. Coffee's dead;
The morning's looking bright;
And your shrink ran off to Europe,
And didn't even write;
And your husband wants to be a girl;
Be glad there's one place in the world
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
You want to go where people know,
People are all the same;
You want to go where everybody knows your name.
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I96txc83ahE&NR=1
Given how conservative the world is turning, I'm not surprised to see such old fashioned mores suddenly rearing their ugly heads in respect to the Realms.
-How conservative it's turning!?
I'd love to see Tyr get ganked by Brandobaris...
-With all the sexuality in the air, from the topic of all of this, I got the totally wrong impression at first...;)
Well, Ive seen enough to make my decision. No need to wait around til August anymore for me. I took my novel collection to the used book store today (theres only 15 published novels I dont own, 9 of which are the Double Diamond ones), as well as my sourcebooks. Ill keep the memories and forget about this mess. I got a hefty sum of coin for it all to invest in something else.
I doubt Ill be by these forums again. Thanks for the years of interesting debates and discussions everyone. It was fun =0
-Well, I think that's a little too hasty. And, there's no reason to give up on all of that good old stuff.
-Though, you do have a reason to be miffed at WotC, as they screwed you over regarding certain things that you've posted, as I understand it.
-How conservative it's turning!?
Well if you live in the Bible Belt, maybe, but here in Jersey it's Sex in the City bordering on something akin to (*insert random googled hentai manga title here*). At least in my school it was. My horizons are decidedly claustrophobic, now that I think about it...
Well if you live in the Bible Belt, maybe, but here in Jersey it's Sex in the City bordering on something akin to (*insert random googled hentai manga title here*). At least in my school it was. My horizons are decidedly claustrophobic, now that I think about it...
-Yeah, I was gonna say...
-Ah, I see you've changed you Avatar from a Sharn to...Cheese Man.
-I could see Tempus doing a good Hulk Hogan impression, but not relly Tyr.
You need to pray and take your vitamins my little Tempamaniacs!!!!:P
I doubt Ill be by these forums again. Thanks for the years of interesting debates and discussions everyone. It was fun =0)
Why do I get the feeling we're going to be seeing that more and more in the near future...
Why do I get the feeling we're going to be seeing that more and more in the near future...
We may leave WoTC, but we'll never leave the true realms.
Good motto, I think I'll put it as starting message for my web.
Dunno about that... I might depart every now and then for the occassional dip into the OWoD...
That's just taking vacations. Sometimes I do that, and there is the rare chance when I play FR instead of DMing (with a Sun Elf Bladesinger using the EoF version)
Actually, I'm really thinking of leaving the Realms for a bit of a hiatus for a while, the whole 4e thing is getting depressing and those aren't the sorts of things I want to associate with the Realms at the moment. Might head over to the LGS shop this weekend to see if anything else catches my eye...
You should try Vampire: The Requiem, I've ben reading some of the sourcebooks and they did it right this time. There is less doom and gloom about end of the world, you don't have to be stuck together with a 13th generation vampire if you are anti-diablerie. The five covenants are interesting (Ordo Dracul and the Carthians are my favorites) and it's good that your clan/bloodline matters less for relations with other kindred.
And I'll never touch the new Mage.
But they got rid of my favorite.. Tzimisce.
You can return the Tzimisce to the game, make it a bloodline and just make a copy/paste of Viscisitude (sp?) and you got Tzimisce again. The new mage I'm still learning about it, but I'm begining to find interesting points (for example I wanted something that said Virtual Adept all over it and the last time I was reading I found it)
But why do work to fix something when there's something else already out there with what you want?
Because that is what we'll have to do to use 4ed mechanics in 3ed FR? :D
The mechanics of the nWoD are better than those of the oWoD and it's easy to recreate anything you want on them. In my country a couple WoD players recreated every oWoD clan that wasn't converted as a bloodline.
Which, according to Ed, is also horsecrap.
Adultery is only a sin in the Realms if there's progeny.
There are a lot of people who are monogamous and faithful to each other in the Realms, but there are just as many couples (Or small groups) who have a much different view of sex.
That, and it's not even like Tyr and Tymora were actually a COUPLE at that point, much less married. Or at least, that's the impression I got--the relationship (
) was still at the "wooing" stage.Therefore, I don't see how "adultery" would even be a factor at all.
Well, Ive seen enough to make my decision. No need to wait around til August anymore for me. I took my novel collection to the used book store today (theres only 15 published novels I dont own, 9 of which are the Double Diamond ones), as well as my sourcebooks. Ill keep the memories and forget about this mess. I got a hefty sum of coin for it all to invest in something else.
I doubt Ill be by these forums again. Thanks for the years of interesting debates and discussions everyone. It was fun =0)
I'm sad to hear that.
You'll be missed.Each tower has it's two spheres as main (it means that you can reach mastery more easy), seven spheres as common (you can only reach the 4th level unless somebody with the sphere as main teaches you) and one as inferior (only 2nd lvl unless you train with one that has it as common until 4th or main to 5th)
Appart from the 5 towers there are 5 orders for the "good" guys: Adamantine Arrow (militant one, simmilar to House Flambeau), Mysterium (the order of discoverying secrets), Silver Lader (rulers), Guardians of the Veil (police force) and the Free Council (the newest of the five and the only one who doesn't have links to atlantis, Mages with new visions, the M:tAw version of technomancers usually fit here)
There are also many legacies who are the equivalent to V:tR bloodlines, each legacy teaches particular ways of magic, the M:t Aw version of the Virtual Adepts is a legacy of the Free Council called the Zero Coders. It's not WW official but they have been recreated by fans
If you strip the fluff of anyone of the settings you can see that behind the names the rules are exactly the same, this gives storytellers the possibility to create completely new kinds of supernaturals without having to fight with the numbers.
Vampire Blood Potency (former Generation, which now isn't static but increases every 50 years or by diablerie) is the equivalent of Mage Gnosis (a merge of Avatar and Arete) and is equivalent of Werewolf Primal Urge (haven't dabbled to much on Werewolf yet).
Another excelent aspect is that the main enemy of a supernatural group is another of the same kind (vampires versus vampires, mages versus mages, werewolfs vs werewolfs), this gives another advantage, you can make a crossover game without having to justify why a vampire, a mage and a werewolf are together (they could be brothers and that simple reason is enough)
Not too sure about that... I kinda liked the whole garou vs kindred dynamic.
You have the Pure faction of Werewolves who do kill everything they see, they are the main antagonists of the PC Werewolves, the Forsaken who strive to balance their two aspects of human and beast. For the Mages you have the Exarcs and their followers the Seers of the Throne (they have a vague resemblance with the NWO and the Syndicate), and for the Vampires there are also a couple groups of kindred who are main enemies (Belial's brood and the VII are two of them)
Not too sure about that... I kinda liked the whole garou vs kindred dynamic.
So did I. But it's pretty nice seeing them making it possible to make mixed parties. Something which I always wanted to do, but which was always a pain to accomplish.
Hmm, it's been a while since I've played a White Wolf game, but I may have to check out what they've done with it, lately. I just hope Wraith is still as awesome as it was the last time I played (Wraith: The Oblivion was easily my favorite out of the whole shebang).
Hmm, it's been a while since I've played a White Wolf game, but I may have to check out what they've done with it, lately. I just hope Wraith is still as awesome as it was the last time I played (Wraith: The Oblivion was easily my favorite out of the whole shebang).
I'll make my Imprisonment of the Restless Spirit ritual to bind you :D
I'm more of a Mage player.
I'll make my Imprisonment of the Restless Spirit ritual to bind you :D
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
The Song of the Count
Now we know why Sesame Street is considered inappropriate for children...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6AXPnH0C9UA
The new Changling sounds better than the old one.
Yes, that's what I thought too when I read. And it makes the true fey as what they are in legends.
The new WoD is looking better than the new FR. ;)
That is because WW does his homework. I'm amazed by the accuracy of information in the Mage line, take out the metaplot an setting aspects and you have a book of History of Occultism (I'm studying Thelema and other Hermetic systems and it's like reading Mage: the Ascension).
-Carthians can nullify other vampire's disciplines with it's covenant discipline.
- Ordo Dracul, founded by Dracula, has the Coils of Dragon, a kind of Vampiric Magic that restores aspects of humanity to kindred, it said that a Vampire who can master all paths finds balance between Beast and Human (much like Golconda in the oWoD)
- Lancea Sanctum has it's Theban Sorcery, supposedly it comes from God.
- Circle of Crones has Cruàc, a form of Old Magic (like Verbena)
- Invictus I don't have a clue :P
The five clans (Ventrue, Daeva, Gangrel, Nosferatu and Mekhet) also have a large number of Bloodlines who usually have different starting disciplines, story and weaknesses. For example the Toreador are a Daeva bloodline that accepts the lost of passion during the embrace but fight to recover it. Brujah is a Gangrel bloodline created by a biker who didn't want to change it's ways. Malkovians (I suspect they are Malkavians but I haven't delved that deep yet) are a Ventrue bloodline (Venture changed their clan weakness to penalties to avoid derangments when loosing humanity because their thirst for power).
The Song of the Count
Now we know why Sesame Street is considered inappropriate for children...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6AXPnH0C9UA
Unnecessary censorship can be funny.
Lasombra's also cool, and Cappadocian.
This one has Obtenebration as Discipline and sounds remotely as Lasombra:
http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php/Bloodlines_from_Bloodlines:_The_Hidden#Khaibit
This one is called the Sangiovanni (the giovannis in everything but name, just change the fluff and you have Capaddocians)
http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php/Bloodlines_from_Bloodlines:_The_Chosen#Sangiovanni
Unnecessary censorship can be funny.
-I always knew the Count had it in 'im.
-Or, in this case, in someone else!
I, too, love to...count...
-I always knew the Count had it in 'im.
-Or, in this case, in someone else!
I'm DYING from laughter over here!
Mage, Werewolf, Vampire, and Changeling... couldn't stand Mummy, Wraith, or Hunter. Just didn't suit my tastes. Loved Changeling though. Think I'm going to have to peruse through them and see what I can use.
Those four you like are recreated in the nWoD, the WW wiki has some things that you can read before buying any book.
The five clans (Ventrue, Daeva, Gangrel, Nosferatu and Mekhet) also have a large number of Bloodlines who usually have different starting disciplines, story and weaknesses. For example the Toreador are a Daeva bloodline that accepts the lost of passion during the embrace but fight to recover it. Brujah is a Gangrel bloodline created by a biker who didn't want to change it's ways. Malkovians (I suspect they are Malkavians but I haven't delved that deep yet) are a Ventrue bloodline (Venture changed their clan weakness to penalties to avoid derangments when loosing humanity because their thirst for power).
Actually I liked the oWoD vampire clans more. The Mekhet were a good shot, but I miss a lot of bloodlines and hate how a few - especially the Brujah, but also others - have turned up. Heck, the Brujah were my favourite clan exactly because of the falling they've had since Cartagen and to the present nights - and how it could turn out for an individual lick. Also, the good old Camarilla vs Sabbat foundation had a certain epic feeling the new setting kinda lacks: it feels a rather stale and uneventful. Sure, this fits the theme that the name "Requiem" conjures perfectly, and it ties with how I'd imagine vampires - yet at the end of it all, the undercurrent of epic struggle is a good way to spice up a game.
What I'd like most is to see a way you could do the old setting (maybe even the Dark Ages book - probably the greatest supplement I've seen for any system, period) with the new mechanics. Just how I'd prefer the FR 4th edition change: change the mechanics for the better, but keep the setting intact.
Actually I liked the oWoD vampire clans more.
Ugh. I much prefer the five archetypes of vampire literature (sensual, bestial, monstrous, shadowy, tyrannical) to the grab-bag of 1990s "gothic-punk"... I mean, Christ in Heaven, you have a clan of "criminal Gypsy vampires" alongside a clan of "Middle Eastern assassin vampires." Hell, I was expecting to turn a page and run across a clan of "African-American basketball playing vampires."
What I'd like most is to see a way you could do the old setting (maybe even the Dark Ages book - probably the greatest supplement I've seen for any system, period) with the new mechanics. Just how I'd prefer the FR 4th edition change: change the mechanics for the better, but keep the setting intact.
I converted Dark Ages: Vampire to the nWoD system in order for my friend to run a Dark Ages game using the Requiem rules instead. It's remarkably easy.
I'll still always love the Ventrue, Lasombra, Tzimisce,and Cappadocians.
I was unaware that there was substantial vampire literature (true, established literature, not the vampire pop made in the past 10 years) to qualify five 'archetypes.' If you ask me, that seems like finding symbolism where you WANT it to be, rather than it actually being there.
I'll still always love the Ventrue, Lasombra, Tzimisce,and Cappadocians.
The Ventrue are still a clan, for Lasombra there is a bloodline, to make a Cappadocian you only need to import the fluff because there is Morte's equivalent and for the Tzimisce just copy & paste Viscisitude and fluff and separate it into a Nosferatu Bloodline (for those Tzimisces who love to wear monstrous shapes) and a Daeva Bloodline (for those Tzimisces who love to make themselves unearthly beautiful)
Rau: The Nosferatu is the least changed of the clans, they are exactly the same as oWoD except that there is less contempt for them.
:p
One of the reasons I liked Tzimisce is that they didn't easily fit into the archetypes. They were scientist/philosopher/sorcerer/tyrant/monster vampires. I always favored the Koldunic variety.
MONSTROUS archetype?! *scoff, stare, boils blood.*
That one is for Sabbat-like neonate tzimisces :D
One of the reasons I liked Tzimisce is that they didn't easily fit into the archetypes. They were scientist/philosopher/sorcerer/tyrant/monster vampires. I always favored the Koldunic variety.
That is why clan/bloodline isn't as important as what covenant your character is part. Clan was downgraded while society was upgraded. The Invictus is like the Camarilla, the Carthians equal the Anarchists, the Ordo Dracul (founded by Dracula) is a variation of the Inconnu and both the Lancea Sanctum and Circle of Crones are based on Sabbat's factions, except that there is no Camarilla vs Sabbat big battle. Fights happen in the shadows, not in the open.
In your case, the Koldunic Tzimisce could be a member of the Circle of Crones.
P.D: I'm a Tremere fan :D
*Never a big fan of them.*
Only Baba Yaga was cool. She seemed more Tzimisce at times.
Still, the Tzimisce pride in me makes me want to scream at the thought of being a bloodline of the NOS.
I know what you mean, the tremere where reduced to a Mage legacy where they are half-undead lich-like creatures who need to devour souls to keep working.
That is why I directly made my change for a different clan/covenant. I'm a Mekhet (still searching for a bloodline that finishes what I want) affiliated with the Ordo Dracul.
Mekhet was (supposedly) Tzimisce's Sire.. So Tzimisce should be a bloodline of Mekhet.
It could be too, clan Mekhet is considered the most experienced with the occult and secrets. They personify the misterious darkness, that is why they got the Lasombra-like bloodline with Obtenebration. They also got the Sangiovanni.
That's what I'd consider the old Tzimisce - Yorak, Bylebog, Triglav, etc. The Pre-Sabbat ones.
I'm not that familiar with Tzimisce history.
Something that has to change is Tzimisce's dependency on sacred ground. One of the many good things of Requiem is that they removed clan weaknesses that depended too much on the Storyteller's rullings (for example the Ventrue's necessity with a certain kind of blood). They are still integrated with lore but it has a mechanical aspect too (Ventrue now have penalties when making a check to see if they get a mental derangement because they are "mad" with power. The Malkovians, Malkavian remake, are those Ventrue who have some permanent madness that can't be removed no matter if your humanity is 7 or more)
I researched Tzimisce lore pretty extensively, on several occasions. Originally, they were sorcerers and philosophers in the Carpathians, withdrawn from worldly affairs - occult Koldun scientists. Only around Generations 6+ did they start to become the tyrannical Eastern European Overlords, in general.
I researched Tzimisce lore pretty extensively, on several occasions. Originally, they were sorcerers and philosophers in the Carpathians, withdrawn from worldly affairs - occult Koldun scientists. Only around Generations 6+ did they start to become the tyrannical Eastern European Overlords, in general.
What if those truly ancient Tzimisces where responsible for the appearance of the Tremere? It could've been possible they influenced Goratrix to make the experiment, so the younger Tzimisces were forced to fight against an enemy who could match them in power.
I would put them either on the Ordo Dracul or the Circle of Crones. Mekhet without a doubt. Clan weakness could be a penalty to charisma (costs for buying new points in charisma could be like if you had one point plus your real charisma) to reflect their introverted nature.
The Tzimisce were masters of the blood, basically - the blood bond, Revenants, the Embrace, diablerie, etc.
Well, there's rumors that Tzimisce planned it. Tzimisce was renowned in that he could diablerize any who shared his blood from a distance - so he could have effectively diablerized ALL of Clan Tremere. He created a huge vampiric blood bank.
Except that Tzimisce probably never counted on Tremere's diablerization of Saulot :D. Tremere embraced after that should not have a blood link to him.
Basically.. Tremere was screwed all over the place, as was the rest of his Clan, whether it was from Saulot or Tzimisce.
Why don't you guys take this to the WoD boards? Or PMs atleast...
-No, this must be what's destroying the Realms.
-I originally made that post in jest, but, hey, frankly, when combined with my above statement, it's true.
-Alediran and Dan would never destroy the Realms knowingly. And, if they did accidentally, they'd put it back together.
Alediran and I destroyed the Realms.
Nah, the FR bashers destroyed the realms.
Duh.
Nah, the FR bashers destroyed the realms.
-They didn't destroy the Realms, as their random and often innane comments sometimes don't even make much sense. Over at the Eberron boards, I am arguing for the existence of the multiple deities of the Realms. I wouldn't have even gotten involved, but someone said something along the lines of "There are hundreds of FR deities...There are more deities than PokeMon...The Forgotten Realms are bland and dry...The Realms are akin to someone eating, and then vomiting all over the place.". But, while misguided, they have no impact on the setting. (I did the research, by the way, and I counted exactly 100 Human deities, minor and major, from every pantheon. Considering the amount of different cultures across the planet, I don't think this is unreasonable). Across the six known continents (Faerûn, Maztica, Zakhara, Osse, Kara-Tur, Anchorome), this averages out to 16.6 deities per continent, which isn't unreasonable).
-The fault lies with the designers and authors who feel this way, since they have the power. With great power comes great responsibility, and they are not being responsible.
I sure hope the person who said that over at Eberron never talks to a Hindu or Buddhist. Geez, it makes it hard for me to even try out Eberron when there's that kind of negativity about other settings.
-Ironically enough, he/she cited Hinduism in his/her argument.
Here's a link: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=968227
I, on the other hand, do. And... Is it really that hard to keep track of that many gods? I don't get it. I have an abominable memory, and I do find with it.
-You know that, though. Why am I posting?
Yeah. Honestly, when I'm designing a setting, I always get upset that I can't think of MORE gods.
I have that exact problem.
-Stop being such a Grognard, MT! :P
Returning to WoD (this time real world version), a group of people in one of Argentina's states saw what they thought to be a Werewolf.
-People see Yetis, Loch Ness Monsters, UFOs, Chupacabras, etc. all the time. They are often drunk, too, oddly enough. There's no coincidence, though. ;)
-People see Yetis, Loch Ness Monsters, UFOs, Chupacabras, etc. all the time. They are often drunk, too, oddly enough. There's no coincidence, though. ;)
Except this time there was a huge rotten smell that persisted until the next day when everybody was awake.
Except this time there was a huge rotten smell that persisted until the next day when everybody was awake.
-Sounds like someone ate of of KtM's Burrito Grande's. ;)
I don't think I need to go into detail.Nah, the FR bashers destroyed the realms.
Listen to LK...I myself bash the Realms as they're going a LOT, but I'm not an FR Basher. I'll bash lots of people, designer and fan alike, but it's all for love of the Realms
Bash...that's my new 10th level spell.The fault lies with the designers and authors who feel this way, since they have the power. With great power comes great responsibility, and they are not being responsible.
-Sounds like someone ate of of KtM's Burrito Grande's.
Don't blame me! I'm nutty and insane, but my burrito's are safe. I only wish to feed people yummy burrito goodness.
You should look to others that desire to poison my yummy foods...
And it's not uncommon for funny smells to turn up after people get really drunk.
Not my fault! My crap smells good:P
Bash...that's my new 10th level spell.
-And they thought Bigsby's Hand was cool. Wait 'till they see Bash!
Don't blame me! You should look to others that desire to poison my yummy foods...
-Like...Merrik!
Not my fault! My crap smells good:P
-One of the perks of being divine. Smells like fresh cut roses on a spring morning.
OK, so what does your...no, nevermind.-Like...Merrik!
Hmmm....makes sense. The Cale has always been jealous of my divinely digestive delights.
OK, so what does your...no, nevermind.
Apricot and orange marmalade
Oh yeah, merry christmas and other related stuff. A wee bit late I know, but I was suffering from barfday surprise myself. I somehow managed to make it the 12km home from a nightclub without losing the money I last remembered being in my wallet. Merely one of the many holiday miracles I suppose. I just wish I remembered having more than 10 bucks left:embarrass
It's like having bad referees in the NFL for thirty years.
It's like having bad referees in the NFL for thirty years.
-It's like having an NFL, period.
At first when I heard that they were going to shake up the realms and make it more of a fantasy/post apocalyptic setting I thought it was a daring move but it could end up being exciting. Then I read about the 4E changes, and in conjunction with reading the actual changes to the FR, it seems to me like instead of telling a story, they started with a crazy conclusion they need to reach and they're going to hammer a square peg into a circular hole until they reach it. So they're blowing it all up - and to those arguing otherwise, 90% of the 2e and 3e books I own (probably around 100) now can be appended to "lost empires of faerun" and are regulated to lore and blast from the past adventures - so its really not a debate that they hit the reset button.
I remember the given cosmological cause for the transition from 2e to 3e was a storyline ending in planescape (some guy tried and failed to usurp the lady of pain, only to find he had already tried it and failed before, and then gets cast back in time doomed to try again or some such). The events during this time caused massive unreset, which destroyed or depopulated sigil and again it was a POL setting with all the refugees doing whatever. Which pretty much ended planescape as a supported setting.
I really am not fond of the new wizard system, or all classes having self heals, or that tieflings, warforged, and the dragon-things are suddenly everywhere, have always been everywhere, and it turns out have possession of all these established nations no one ever mentioned before....but I figured hey thats just 4E. Even if the system sucks at least I'll still have the realms! Will I?
Edit:
I will wait for the campaign setting but its going to take some CRAZY good storytelling to make me suspend my reality for some of this stuff. And I'm into fantasy!
I mean really who wrote some of this stuff? Aboleths?? Out of all the evil threats they could have established they go with aboleths? I remember two aboleth related encounters in 10 years of forgotton realms, one of them was a minor 5 minute quest in baldur's gate, the other was half a chapter in one of the books in the series with phaeraun. Orcs are good now? There hasnt been one single piece of lore ever in the history of the realms that presented orcs are good. Now we're to believe an entire NATION of good orcs exist? Descended from the tribe of the most evil and warmongering orc of them all to boot. Maybe its a tough world in 4E but you dont see demons and devils stopping the blood war just because things got tough right? Oh wait no blood war either! Helm commits adultery? THE MOST LOYAL OF GODS? TYR KILLS HELM?
GAH I'm ranting.
-Annyway, a lot of stuff included in your rant there isn't 100% confirmed. Thus, there is hope.
they need to keep the £$£$£ coming in, so they write and rewrite rules and settings. i fell into this (money) pit-trap with White Wolf and now own a lot of World of Darkness sourcebooks.
to prevent this ever happening again with a game i like/love to play or DM, i bought, after reading my mates copies 3.5E of the core rulbooks and purchased the FRCS and Waterdeep sourcebook as my own campaign setting.
the answer is simple - play the campaign you wish to run, using the rules you wish to use. if you want to spend your cash 'upgrading' to 4E be my guest. i'd rather use 3.5E than the red box set from the 80's anyway
as for me, i won't be visiting my RPG retailer anytime soon!!!
the answer is simple - play the campaign you wish to run, using the rules you wish to use. if you want to spend your cash 'upgrading' to 4E be my guest. i'd rather use 3.5E than the red box set from the 80's anyway
-That's only half the point.
-That's only half the point.
so what's your other half lol
so what's your other half lol
Me, naturally.
Well, third, not half.
-That a little more care and courtesy, for a lack of a better word, should have been used when implementing any and all of the preposed changes. Many of us don't play D&D in the Realms, and we can't simply say, "Well, not in my campaign".
You *can*, however, say "Not in my Realms".
You *can*, however, say "Not in my Realms".
-I can't. I don't have my own Realms.
-I'm just here for the story, and rejecting fundamental changes in the story invalidates basically everything in 4e. With that said, asides for hanging out with all of the cool people here, there really wouldn't be much of a reason to stick around, harping on overruled lore and/or stories.
You *can*, however, say "Not in my Realms".
True. But then it becomes more and more divergent until our Realms has nothing in common with the published Realms (and by extension, no one elses Realms). For people who soley read the novels and love the Realms as a story setting, such drastic divergences litterally kill the Realms for us because there's nolonger the continuity of the commonality.
-I can't. I don't have my own Realms.
There's a version of the Realms in your head.
-I'm just here for the story, and rejecting fundamental changes in the story invalidates basically everything in 4e. With that said, asides for hanging out with all of the cool people here, there really wouldn't be much of a reason to stick around, harping on overruled lore and/or stories.
I see no reason why you couldn't keep doing that.
There's a version of the Realms in your head.
And there will be the one we'll maintain as a group.
The problem is that egotistical game designers all seem to want to leave this giant rubber stamp "So and So Was Here!" on the face of Toril rather than leaving it alone and just letting people play.
Seconded.
I don't feel for one minute ANY of this was done with our welfare in mind, or even that of supposed 'new players' they hope to attract. I almost think there is a certain amount of jealousy as well, with certain folks destroying what other creative people have done, just because they don't have a creative bone in their body.
I may not be as vociferous as GEV, but I'm really not liking most of what I'm seeing for the Realms.
For people who soley read the novels and love the Realms as a story setting, such drastic divergences litterally kill the Realms for us because there's no longer the continuity of the commonality.
And yet, strangely, they claim they are stream-lining the Realms to create more commonality amongst Realms players. The logic, or lack thereof, boggles the mind...
I mean really who wrote some of this stuff? Aboleths?? Out of all the evil threats they could have established they go with aboleths? I remember two aboleth related encounters in 10 years of forgotton realms, one of them was a minor 5 minute quest in baldur's gate, the other was half a chapter in one of the books in the series with phaeraun. Orcs are good now? There hasnt been one single piece of lore ever in the history of the realms that presented orcs are good. Now we're to believe an entire NATION of good orcs exist? Descended from the tribe of the most evil and warmongering orc of them all to boot. Maybe its a tough world in 4E but you dont see demons and devils stopping the blood war just because things got tough right? Oh wait no blood war either! Helm commits adultery? THE MOST LOYAL OF GODS? TYR KILLS HELM?
Although you're spot-on about Aboleths and Helm not making any sense, you are incorrect about Orcs.
The Orcs that participated in The Crusade were considered HEROES, and their general, Vraak, was even given a medal by King Azoun. The Orcs that remained in the east have continued to live in peace with the people of Thesk, and have recently proven themselves heroes again (by driving off a gang of bandits). There is a tribe of Orcs living in northern Thar called the Odonti who are just peaceful farmers, and don't even know how to fight. In Vaasa there is an entire town of Half-Orcs that live in peace and are loyal citizens to the King. If I'm not mistaken, the Orcs of the Vilhon Reach have always gotten along with their neighbors to a certain extent, and I believe there is even an Orc Paladin floating around somewhere in canon.
The Orcish general Vraak also appeared in Prince of Lies, where he once again became a hero by helping the scribe get away from Zhentil Keep - the scribe who was keeping Cyric from getting his grubby little hands on the Cyrinishad!
Orcs, unlike Drow, are NOT inherently evil - they have just been mistreated by humans and others for so many thousands of years that they now attack on sight. If you want to read about the tragedy that is the Orcs, read up on your Netherease History - Netheril tried to commit genocide on them, simply because they tried to defend lands that were theirs before the Netherease claimed them.
Orcs are NOT the real monsters...
Just ask the Elves of Nikerynath. ;)
If they're not monsters, they should hire a lawyer...
Orcs, unlike Drow, are NOT inherently evil...
Neither are drow.
Although Drizzt is one of the 'good' guys, he is still able to lapse into the primitive 'hunter' mode, where he is dangerous to friend and foe alike. He has it within him to be cruel, and has even admitted this in some of his introspectives. When he is killing foes, he's primitive mind (Id?) still relishes the bloodflow of his enemies, but his intelligence is disgusted by it. Thats why he is such an awesome fighter - without that built-in streak of cruelty, he wouldn't be able to kill so easily.
On the other hand, Dark Elves are NOT inherently evil. Weather it was an effect of the Descent Curse, or more likely, the years of hardship and canabalism that drove most of them insane when they were forced out of the sunlight, the Drow BECAME evil forever more. Dark Elves, on the other hand, were no more or less evil then any of the other Elven subraces.
One might consider Drizzt's morality a 'throw-back' to earlier times, before the curse. He is an aberration... and should have remained so for continuity. AFAIK, there are NO good Drow in ANY other official setting. I can see the rare Drow Character taking after Drizzt (after all, anomalies exist in all races), but this new trend to create entire groups of good Drow is not to my liking.
I think perhaps this is one of the few things the designers understood and are correcting rightly - from the Orc King prologue I get the impression that Drizzt may be once again alone in the world. Armies of good Drow 'cheapen' Drizzt's character, something I don't think RAS ever intended. For him to go back to what he was and not be the brunt of jokes anymore, the world needs to shift back to the way it was.
The Lady Penitent Series appears to be doing exactly that.
Although you're spot-on about Aboleths and Helm not making any sense, you are incorrect about Orcs.
...
Orcs, unlike Drow, are NOT inherently evil - they have just been mistreated by humans and others for so many thousands of years that they now attack on sight. If you want to read about the tragedy that is the Orcs, read up on your Netherease History - Netheril tried to commit genocide on them, simply because they tried to defend lands that were theirs before the Netherease claimed them.
Ok fair enough. I suppose we can just say that most presentation of orcs has so far been as the prototypical horde of evil barbarians. Hopefully they can come up with a good reason why instead of the majority being as such now there is a sizeable portion, if not the new majority, being thrust into the spotlight as 'the good guys'. Also they now have the same intelligence bonus as humans. Nothing against orcs but this is basically a retcon affecting an entire race and relations of others in regards to the race. I am not sure the WoW explanation that orcs were honorable but then corrupted is going to do it for me. Its too hard to believe this happens at the same time as all the other crap. Something like orcs joining the goodly races is in itself an edition transitioning event, not some side stuff thrown in with the death of half the pantheon. Even in WoW the orcs aren't on the same side as the dwarves, plus they had an incredibly popular and well written game which explained gradually why the orcs were now "good", presented them in a new light which made the players go "wow I like orcs now", while introducing "the new bad guys". We got 2 pages at the end of a grand history of the realms.
The aboleth thing I HOPE has good explanation....I know they're psionic so naturally they would take advantage of the weave being destroyed, but I think most people are not so interested in non-humanoid fish as a main plot enemy. Thats one of the reasons there has been so little lore on aboleths....they DONT make interesting adversaries. Evil wizards, schemeing barons, undead, drow, orcs, criminal organizations...all are good antagonists because they can WALK ON LAND. You need to be able to relate to your antagonist to make it involving, and it doesnt get more aberration than psionic fish. In this new PoL world where racism and aboleths are rampant, where is the room for thieves guilds? Where is the room for inter-nation intrigue? Are there even nations anymore? Where's the GREY area? Thats the problem with a PoL setting, you have two very clearly defined sides and not a lot of room left for the middle. Could organizations such as the twisted rune, zhentarim, harpers, etc still exist, with no nations to squabble over and the fates of the goodly races in doubt? If they push this PoL too far, and from salvatore's intro it seems like everything south of the silver marches might be gone, where's the room for any of that? Wheres the room for anything but survival?
Again I hope there is some brilliant storytelling that can make me eat my words, but I have the terrible feeling Baker made it 5 pages into the monster manual before deciding "it was too much lore to sort out" and "lets just go with these guys here they look pretty scary".
Plus the bit about a "good" orc nation is false. Maybe a more orderly orc nation, but it does not have to be good. My problem with the Realms at times is the NATIONS themselves sometimes are portrayed as if they had an alignment. Down with Alignment. Burn Gygax!!!! BURNNNNNN!!!!
Again I hope there is some brilliant storytelling that can make me eat my words, but I have the terrible feeling Baker made it 5 pages into the monster manual before deciding "it was too much lore to sort out" and "lets just go with these guys here they look pretty scary".
Thanks for that... ;)
I just picture a 4e designer looking at the MM and saying "It am have too many words! Designer Smash!!!". "Me know, me just rip out this first page and use it..."
That sounds so logical, it's scarey...
Plus the bit about a "good" orc nation is false. Maybe a more orderly orc nation, but it does not have to be good. My problem with the Realms at times is the NATIONS themselves sometimes are portrayed as if they had an alignment. Down with Alignment. Burn Gygax!!!! BURNNNNNN!!!!
No more good or evil then any average human kingdom, or Elf for that matter. FR history has shown that both of those races have carried on brutal wars against 'innocent' foes just like the Orcs. Its because of the Orc's 'scarey visage' that they got lumped in with the 'bad guys' so long ago.
There is an old episode of Lost in Space that featured two aliens at war - one was a beautiful Golden man, and the other a hideous lizard creature. The humans side with the Golden Man, only to find out in the end the ugly frog-thing was the good guy. A silly little TV series, but a rather poinant point learned. ;)
Thanks for that... ;)
I just picture a 4e designer looking at the MM and saying "It am have too many words! Designer Smash!!!". "Me know, me just rip out this first page and use it..."
That sounds so logical, it's scarey...
I think they definitely got ahead of themselves but they have time to come up with something, and I really hope they do for all our sakes.
WotC's problem is that they have introduced 3 changes, any one of which would be realms-shattering enough to warrant another edition of books, but taken together its going to be a really tough sell.
1) Most people/nations dead. New enemies, new allies, new atmosphere.
2) Half the gods dead, the concept of 'gods' and the strength of their divinity has been diluted.
3) Racial changes, new races out of nowhere, discarded races.
I'm not saying none of these tie into each other, and in fact if they are going to make this thing believable they'll have to blend it into one deal but this is still dropping an atom bomb on what I thought was a perfectly fine setting
IIRC the 2e to 3e transition in terms of its effect on realmslore, was minimal. They killed off planescape as the sacrifical lamb to bring forth 3e by making sweeping changes to everything that had been in order to justify the new cosmology. I dont think FR is the lamb, but it might have the same effect.
I just feel they need to fix "Evil" nations a bit like Thay and Zhentil Keep. Flesh them out a bit more so they are not so Muahahahaha!
Well I am fairly certain Thay is no longer a nation what with the spellplague. If there's anything left its probably slaves trying to comprehend their freedom in a world somehow more bleak than what they had experienced before, plus the minority of wizards who arent dead struggling to cope with their new lowered status.
Zhentil keep is one of those organizations which I just dont see as having a role in a PoL setting. If everyone is fighting for survival against monsters, where does an evil power mongering organization fit? There's so little power left to be had why would they exist?
I mean if you're manshoon, assuming the spellplague didn't get you, you've spent the last 50 years plotting and creating this whole organization for the explicit purpose of dominating these nations, and BOOM THEY NO LONGER THERE LOL. What do you even say if you're Manshoon? Cyric WTF you do that for?
Changes in core does not have to effect the FR lore necessarily. We don't know what FR will do yet with these ideas.
On the bright side, it appears there may be just as many, if not more, changes to 'core' things to bring them more in line with FR's version (such as the height of Elves). I still feel that FR WILL be the new core, but I'll wait and see with this one. If that does happen, then the shake-up amongst the gods will have to be even more dramatic then we fear.
The aboleth thing I HOPE has good explanation....I know they're psionic so naturally they would take advantage of the weave being destroyed, but I think most people are not so interested in non-humanoid fish as a main plot enemy. Thats one of the reasons there has been so little lore on aboleths....they DONT make interesting adversaries. Evil wizards, schemeing barons, undead, drow, orcs, criminal organizations...all are good antagonists because they can WALK ON LAND. You need to be able to relate to your antagonist to make it involving, and it doesnt get more aberration than psionic fish. In this new PoL world where racism and aboleths are rampant, where is the room for thieves guilds? Where is the room for inter-nation intrigue? Are there even nations anymore? Where's the GREY area? Thats the problem with a PoL setting, you have two very clearly defined sides and not a lot of room left for the middle. Could organizations such as the twisted rune, zhentarim, harpers, etc still exist, with no nations to squabble over and the fates of the goodly races in doubt? If they push this PoL too far, and from salvatore's intro it seems like everything south of the silver marches might be gone, where's the room for any of that? Wheres the room for anything but survival?
Again I hope there is some brilliant storytelling that can make me eat my words, but I have the terrible feeling Baker made it 5 pages into the monster manual before deciding "it was too much lore to sort out" and "lets just go with these guys here they look pretty scary".
My thoughts exactly. A lot of people have debated what will officially happen in the end, but regardless of the final details, the facts we have on the future Realms have painted a picture that is not compatible with any of the FR campaigns I have going right now. It's just so far from anywhere I wish to go with my campaigns that it's just not worth my time. Like I said before, I've traditionally enjoyed finding in-game or in-campaign reasons to align my stories with published canon, and then wrapping my own plots/intrigue against these "incoming ripples" (i.e. thus creating a challenge for the DM, who is usually completely omniscient in his own campaign; in a Realms campaign, he/she's 90% omniscient, and there's a 10% out there that's unknown or being determined by an upcoming accessory or novel...)
However now, they are asking the DMs to simply reboot their campaigns and "wind down their 3.5 stories" in preparation of the upcoming big bang! That's laziness at best if you ask me. Man, regardless of the edition of the current "rules", how much imagination does one really require to align 3.5 lore with 4E lore *smoothly*??? Why was there a need to reshuffle races, devils, etc? That's bull! Something seriously wrong has taken hold of WotC's higher brain functions and is toying with them... :rolleye2:
the facts we have on the future Realms have painted a picture that is not compatible with any of the FR campaigns I have going right now. It's just so far from anywhere I wish to go with my campaigns that it's just not worth my time. Like I said before, I've traditionally enjoyed finding in-game or in-campaign reasons to align my stories with published canon, and then wrapping my own plots/intrigue against these "incoming ripples"
Thats exactly my problem. Like most, I want to love and believe in 4E Faerun. Its a new edition and realistically one has to expect large changes. As such I'm willing to sacrifice a lot of my established views on the realms to make this transition. But they gotta meet me halfway on this - they cant just flatten everything, throw in Drizzt, and expect me to be happy.
Up until now there's been sourcebooks on say, the spine of the world, and how if the orcs ever attacked in coordination they'd wipe out the north. This type of book would be easily compatible with any world and I'd buy it regardless of what kind of campaign I'm running. Even if I don't plan on having orcs sweep through Silverymoon I can use it for lore and atmosphere and adventures. Even if my PC is way far south in Amn, I would still buy this book because its interesting, it fits into Faerun in general, and I enjoy reading sourcebooks.
On the other hand if there's a source book on the aboleth empire centered on what used to be waterdeep, or the new tiefling nation in the remains of thay, thats completely useless to me.
4E just looks really really limiting on what kind of campaign you can run with it.
"3) Racial changes, new races out of nowhere, discarded races."
Changes in core does not have to effect the FR lore necessarily. We don't know what FR will do yet with these ideas.
-Regarding racial changes, as the Forgotten Realms don't have any specific investments in Demons/Devils, or other "extra" races, so there no doubt in my mind that they will be changing. To keep them as they are/different from "Core"/Generic D&D causes problems for the designers, as it adds extra work for them. While we know often times they have disregarded the simplest route, odds are a lot of these extra things will be changing, to fit with where the rest of D&D is going.
-New races, such as the Dragonborn, will be finding themselves into the Realms, as will the new Tieflings. Just like most new races introduced in a lot of 3e books were inserted into the Realms, so soo will these races. But, at least for the Dragonborn, there is a good plot hook, with all of the recent activity between Bahamut and Tiamat.
-And, disgarded races...Well, honestly, I don't know what races are being disgarded. Gnomes (if that's what we're talking about) will always exist in the Realms. Until they appear in a 4e Player's Handbook as a player race, and not a monster, there simply will be fewer Gnome PCs in the Realms. All of the Gnome NPCs are safe.
It might be a cheap way out, but at least I'll be able to use the new rules in the setting I love.
I'm sure once we have the new rules in our hands, most of the people sticking with the 3e setting will come here to the boards and create 3e explanations for everything. I have no idea what these new magical traditions will look like, but how hard could it be to say that magic users from afar have traveled to Faerûn and taught their own brand of magic to the folks there? Wu Jen, Sha'ir, Pluma-Weavers, etc... we could just say that their magic never utilized the weave, and that their powers were mostly unaffected by its disappearance.
Or any of a jillion other explanantions...
Elminster used to hang with Mordenkainen and Dalamar in those Wizard's Three articles, and neither of them used the Weave (yet they all exchanged spells). Also, Khelben, Vagerdehast, and many others traveled to Greyhawk frequently in the past, and their magic worked just fine without the Weave. El was transported to that Saurial World, and yet had no problem defeating Dragons without the Weave.
The Weave being gone doesn't mean everyone can no longer cast magic, and other traditions have always existed elsewhere on Toril and in other planes. The Elves were casting High Magic long before they ever came to Toril, so why couldn't they just go back to the 'old ways'?
Having to advance the Timeline and change Toril so dramatically is a sham - I can easily use the new rules in the current setting, and I'm sure most of you can too. If you like what you have, then don't switch - adapt. If you like the new setting, then by all means play in that.
We are not being 'cut-off', we are being handed two choices. Pick the one you like and run with it.
One last thing - My personal interpretation is that the Aboleths will be used for a great many of the changes being made to the 4e setting, but that the problem with them will be RESOLVED by the time the 4e setting date is established. Drizzt refers to them in the past tense, so I doubt they will be any more a major player in the new Realms then they are now.
The Spellplague, God Deaths, Aboleths, etc... are all Deux ex machina to remake the Realms in an image more compatible with the current design team's direction for the setting. None of those things should have any effect on games set in the new setting, any more then the Crown Wars effect us in the current one.
Anyway, I don't think any mechanics changes will change the realms. Even if they scrapped all the classes and made completely new classes, it wouldn't be too hard to accept.
And likewise I'm okay with some changes to Faerun. Maybe thay is gone. Likely if you think about it. Maybe Waterdeep is gone. Its been 100 years and theres been extraordinary circumstances. But there is a line to be drawn....you can chip away and chip away but eventually it wont be faerun anymore it'll be fantasy Fallout 2 with drizzt. If all thats left is the silver marches and even there its some godless orc human elf alliance, there's no way I can call that the forgotten realms.
Fortunately for me, my current players are not overly familiar with the Realms, and only one of them is bothering to learn the rules (he's running his own games now). This means I will be able to transform their characters, who are only level three right now, into the new rules with very little fuss, and have them continue on with what they were doing without nary a hiccup. I won't really need to get into the 'whys' of the changes, since most of them will be translucent to them (except for the ones that directly effect their characters). I'm just going to fall back on the tried and true "it was always that way" that they used between former editions.
It might be a cheap way out, but at least I'll be able to use the new rules in the setting I love.
I'm sure once we have the new rules in our hands, most of the people sticking with the 3e setting will come here to the boards and create 3e explanations for everything. I have no idea what these new magical traditions will look like, but how hard could it be to say that magic users from afar have traveled to Faerûn and taught their own brand of magic to the folks there? Wu Jen, Sha'ir, Pluma-Weavers, etc... we could just say that their magic never utilized the weave, and that their powers were mostly unaffected by its disappearance.
Or any of a jillion other explanantions...
Elminster used to hang with Mordenkainen and Dalamar in those Wizard's Three articles, and neither of them used the Weave (yet they all exchanged spells). Also, Khelben, Vagerdehast, and many others traveled to Greyhawk frequently in the past, and their magic worked just fine without the Weave. El was transported to that Saurial World, and yet had no problem defeating Dragons without the Weave.
The Weave being gone doesn't mean everyone can no longer cast magic, and other traditions have always existed elsewhere on Toril and in other planes. The Elves were casting High Magic long before they ever came to Toril, so why couldn't they just go back to the 'old ways'?
Having to advance the Timeline and change Toril so dramatically is a sham - I can easily use the new rules in the current setting, and I'm sure most of you can too. If you like what you have, then don't switch - adapt. If you like the new setting, then by all means play in that.
We are not being 'cut-off', we are being handed two choices. Pick the one you like and run with it.
One last thing - My personal interpretation is that the Aboleths will be used for a great many of the changes being made to the 4e setting, but that the problem with them will be RESOLVED by the time the 4e setting date is established. Drizzt refers to them in the past tense, so I doubt they will be any more a major player in the new Realms then they are now.
The Spellplague, God Deaths, Aboleths, etc... are all Deux ex machina to remake the Realms in an image more compatible with the current design team's direction for the setting. None of those things should have any effect on games set in the new setting, any more then the Crown Wars effect us in the current one.
Yeah, Markus. You're not in my shoes. I've been running in the same realms with multiple groups for nigh on 20 years now. I have THIRTEEN stories in various stages of completion.
This is driving me nuts. Plus, I don't like the neo-conservative sexual ethic they seem to be espousing. A lot of the "comfort gods" are going away.
Except for having to re-write stats for the NPCs in every encounter (that SUCKS big-time), it should just be business as usual for me.
I feel your pain though, msatran. As many of you know, 've been working on a useable world map of Toril for quite some time. Since all of this 4e 'hub-bub' has come down the pipe, It's hard for me to work on the maps, knowing it's all going to change soon.
I'm still chuggin' along with kara-Tur (at a MUCH slower pace then before), but I just don't have that good feeling I used to when I was doing them. Its like trying to nurse someone back to health, when you know they are terminally ill. It's all... so futile.
But I will to finish K-T at least, and the Sword Coast (I made a promise to another site), because I know many people don't plan on leaving the current Realms for 4e.
I feel your pain though, msatran. As many of you know, 've been working on a useable world map of Toril for quite some time. Since all of this 4e 'hub-bub' has come down the pipe, It's hard for me to work on the maps, knowing it's all going to change soon.
-You can always employ the ol' "Start big and work your way down" method, meaning to just start with the continents themselves, and then add detail as more and more information is made availible.
I guess that sort of like what WotC is doing. :P
Well, if the coastlines and basic geography don't change, then I'll have it made. When I started doing the Utter East, I learned about 'layering' in PS, so now I can get rid of all the settlements, roads, and names with the push of a button. :D
I guess that sort of like what WotC is doing. :P
-Ah, that's right. Layers. Heh, you can have a 3e layer, and a 4e layer.
-There shouldn't be an arbitrary change of size of the setting, or shape, or whatever. They don't pay attention to those kinds of details, anymore. ;)
I know... I know... you needn't repeat yourself. We are all WELL AWARE that Abeir WAS the name chosen to go in front of Toril, just so it would come at the front of the FR Glossography. Unfortunately, the 4e designers have other ideas, now.
This all means possible geographic changes, as well as the expected political ones. And if they do the "Unsundering" (which I no longer feel is the case), then it could be worse... MUCH worse.
Even though there hasn't been much discussion of it of late, we still gotta remember such cryptic comments as "the disasterous merging of two worlds", and the fact that there are at least three seperate references to truth about "Abeir" and where it's gone (and it's possible return).
-If all of that happens on a metaphysical level (ie, two planes that were layered over each other suddenly merging), I don't think there would be much of a change, if any, to actual, physical geography. I mean, places like the Plane of Shadow are 'negatives' of the Material Plane, so to speak. Same geography, etc.
I know... I know... you needn't repeat yourself.
-I wasn't going to. :P
Feh... I'm not going to be surprised if the 'new Weave' is actually the Shadow Weave in disguise and that Shar is the new godess of ebil magics... at least at the rate things are going.
Unless something has changed in the last few days, as far as I know there isn't going to be a new weave.
Spellcasters are going to use what they've been using in other settings and the outer planes all along - Raw Magic.
It's kind of like spending most of your life accessing the Internet using AOL, and then suddenly losing it and having only an ISP available.
Sure, it was simpler to use, and had all sorts of safety features for the kiddies... but now your ready for some REAL power.
Personally I think it isn't such a big deal. Sure I dislike most of the changes, but Toril is still Toril and you still got tens of thousands of years of history to draw from. Don't like the current situation? Play campaigns in the past or just don't integrate canon changes into your Realms, its pretty simple.
I think the lines between priests and mages will begin to blur with these new magical traditions, and everyone will just be a "spellcaster" with a different power source. Ergo, a follower of Sylvanus may still be called a Druid if he follows a more devout path, but the same character could be called an Ecomancer if he just uses the god as his power source.
Don't know if thats what they have in mind, but the Elemental lords would be naturals for this premise, and of course there would still be many other sources of energy available (Shadow, Fey, Demonic, Diabolic, Celestial, Positive & Negative energies, and just about anything else one could imagine). In fact, it almost seems as if power sources can be attached to individual planes at this point (just look at the ones I just named), as well as beings.
Maybe this is part of the whole UnForgotten Realms they keep hinting about - without Mystra's Weave controlling the flow of energies, many of the old, forgotten conduits of power will now become viable options. Portals can transfer a lot more then people, you know. ;)
It's kind of like spending most of your life accessing the Internet using AOL, and then suddenly losing it and having only an ISP available.
Sure, it was simpler to use, and had all sorts of safety features for the kiddies... but now your ready for some REAL power.
-That's a surprisingly good analogy.
Personally I think it isn't such a big deal. Sure I dislike most of the changes, but Toril is still Toril and you still got tens of thousands of years of history to draw from. Don't like the current situation? Play campaigns in the past or just don't integrate canon changes into your Realms, its pretty simple.
-Of course, but in effect, for those of us who don't play D&D, the 'appealing factor' of the Realms- whatever it may be, for every person- might simply be gone, you know?
-That's a surprisingly good analogy.
-Of course, but in effect, for those of us who don't play D&D, the 'appealing factor' of the Realms- whatever it may be, for every person- might simply be gone, you know?
Actually, I never play in the Realms at all, all of my limited campaigns have so far been homebrew and I am too lazy/busy to DM.
Yes these changes are...horrific to say the least....but the Realms still seem to have that air of mystique about it and in some ways I enjoy watching it progress and grow.
Of course, if they release Planescape 4e then I'm ditching the Realms for good.
I still don't understand what's going on, of course we only have a one paragraph note to go on about how the change is being applied in the realms, but I also though Mystra created her Chosen to avoid the major consequences of her death.
In the longest running set of characters my group played in the realms we had been dedicated to Mystra. After the Time of Troubles we just couldn't wrap our minds around worshipping some lady who we had been more powerful than only a few months beforehand. The death of Mystra then led us to Selune as we chose to see her as the birth mother of magic more generally. We've since then had a not so covert war going on against the followers of Shar and we've been outlawed in several countries.
Send the power back to Selune and I will be fine with it ;)
On another note, I am not sure how the magic changes will be addressed, but we converted every wizard in the realms to sorcerors long ago. It doesn't make sense that you have to memorize a spell you've cast 100s of times, no matter what the rules of magic say. I think that Sorcs are the midpoint between memorizing and having a power based system that replenishes at whatever rate, kind of like Diablo or World of Warcraft, which I don't want in my pen and paper game.
I will wait to see, if they come up with a logical and creative way to explain it some of the issues they've created, I will be okay with it. What I don't want to see is FR largely turned into a post-apocolyptic type of world; that I would have no interest in.
Actually, I never play in the Realms at all, all of my limited campaigns have so far been homebrew and I am too lazy/busy to DM.
Yes these changes are...horrific to say the least....but the Realms still seem to have that air of mystique about it and in some ways I enjoy watching it progress and grow.
-I'm going to respectfully disagree with you there. I think a lot of the mystique that is exhuded from the Realms right now is being lost with the transition to 4e, due to the various and unwarranted, unexplained retcons and RSEs.
-I'm going to respectfully disagree with you there. I think a lot of the mystique that is exhuded from the Realms right now is being lost with the transition to 4e, due to the various and unwarranted, unexplained retcons and RSEs.
Oh stop being such a pessemistic grougnard Karsus, I am just trying to bring some optimism in an otherwise hopeless scenario. Delusions of hope are natural highs that work quite well to bring light back into a dreary day, you should try it sometime;)
Anyway, its not like 30,000 years of history is being annihilated or the world is shrinking. In D&D, the world is what you conceive it to be.
In D&D, the world is what you conceive it to be.
-If you had a D&D to use, that would be easier. As I said before, I don't DM in the Realms, and just have the "metastory" to follow. If I don't like the metastory, and stop following it, the Realms will just start to become stale.
-If you had a D&D to use, that would be easier. As I said before, I don't DM in the Realms, and just have the "metastory" to follow. If I don't like the metastory, and stop following it, the Realms will just start to become stale.
I'm exactly the same way actually, but I try to see the massive changes in Toril as signs to a new dynamism in the world that have a slight possibility of transforming it into something far more enjoyable than before.
It IS a very slim chance mind you, but its all that I have.
Theres nothing left of the world I love, it seems. I suppose the only thing I can do is simply not purchase any 4e Realms material, and stop purchasing the novels once they reach and pass these senseless events. Perhaps I'll not purchase any 4e material at all, and just use the new SRD if/when it comes out to determine if I like the new rules enough to switch to them in my 3e-lore-based games. Not that it will make any difference, but it seems the only way I can do anything at all about this.
I never thought a day would come where I would wish the Realms were simply left for dead with settings like Dragonlance, Dark Sun, and Ravenloft, but it seems I've been proven wrong. Far better for the setting to be laid to rest with them than to be destroyed in this manner. At least then it would remain the Realms. (I'm reminded of Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings, when she was tempted by the ring, and could either take it, become a new Dark Queen of the lands of Arda, and be corrupted and irreversibly changed in the process; or deny it, remain herself, pass into the west and fade away with the rest of her kind, but remain herself for the rest of time. She took the latter. Metaphorically, it seems the Realms is taking the former, and I can only weep for it.)
Zevox
Far better for the setting to be laid to rest with them than to be destroyed in this manner. At least then it would remain the Realms. (I'm reminded of Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings, when she was tempted by the ring, and could either take it, become a new Dark Queen of the lands of Arda, and be corrupted and irreversibly changed in the process; or deny it, remain herself, pass into the west and fade away with the rest of her kind, but remain herself for the rest of time. She took the latter. Metaphorically, it seems the Realms is taking the former, and I can only weep for it.)
Zevox
If the events are as catastophic as they seem, it pretty much means all the adventures people had, all the lore published before now, all the great heros and villans and conflicts, everything was for naught. I cant even start a new campaign right now. Whats the point of my wizard getting off his duff to save the town from the evil necromancer? He'll be dead, the town will be dead, the necromancer will be dead, his GOD will be dead in 10 years.
Fantasy is fantasy and we all know none of what we've done in our Faeruns really amount to anything tangible. Its a hobby yes. But if they underestimate what they're doing, if they just casually invalidate the hundreds of books some of us have bought, the thousands of hours we've spending building, learning, and loving this world...well that kind of makes me not even want to do PnP anymore. Whats the point? My attitude in real life right now kind of reflects my PC's attitude.
If I don't like 4E I will definitely do what you said you'd rather prefer. I'll just end my realms right now - much better it be put in permanent stasis than let it become something its not. And after 10 years in the realms (and I know thats nothing compared to some people) I would not want to start following a new world. It wont be the same thing the second time around. I'll just simply give up PnP and anything WotC related in the future.
I have very little hope for 4E which should be obvious from my posts. Its very clear what they are trying to do, in my opinion. They are trying to make a new setting from scratch to attract new players, but at the same time prostitute the name of the Forgotten Realms to generate legitimacy and maybe retain some old players. So they'll keep Drizzt and Elminster and some other names but as far as it being the realms, give me a break. Every time I read Rich Baker's answers I get the distinct impression WotC put our realms into the hands of someone who doesnt know about the realms, doesnt care to know about the realms, and is basically willing to cut bait (ie us) and roll the dice with a new setting.
Whatever, LOTR hasnt had any new developments in 30 years, I dont need 4E to continue my realms.
If players know that in ten years, everything they do will suck, what's the point of playing the game? What's the point of having high level characters who can do things like live in a town and have their cohorts cast Create Food and Water some ungodly number of times just to make sure their village survives 1381?
Suddenly, all of your characters are magically transformed into tofu idiots who don't know anything about their own deities, their own skills, or their own past.
This really doesn't sound very player friendly.
Nope, yer right... no Weave.
Spellcasters are going to use what they've been using in other settings and the outer planes all along - Raw Magic.
It's kind of like spending most of your life accessing the Internet using AOL, and then suddenly losing it and having only an ISP available.
Sure, it was simpler to use, and had all sorts of safety features for the kiddies... but now your ready for some REAL power.
I think, if anything, they'll be muting the power level of magic too... or else bringing everyone else into line with arcane spellcasters.
I'm betting that they're leaning more towards the nerfing of mages.
At will Magic Missiles are nerfing? Sorry, just not swallowing the concept...
But they'll decrease it's power to be less damaging than the sweep of a sword.
Every time I read Rich Baker's answers I get the distinct impression WotC put our realms into the hands of someone who doesnt know about the realms, doesnt care to know about the realms, and is basically willing to cut bait (ie us) and roll the dice with a new setting.
[sarcastic gasp]![/sarcastic gasp]How can you say that!?
Whatever, LOTR hasnt had any new developments in 30 years, I dont need 4E to continue my realms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_hurin
But they'll decrease it's power to be less damaging than the sweep of a sword.
Were that the case, I'm pretty sure Shelly would have thrown a fit about it in her column... unless they've gotten to her too.
This really doesn't sound very player friendly.
No, its desgned to be player-friendly to new players who are just getting started on the Realms and now they don't have to worry about 1000,000 gods, epic-level NPCs breathing down their neck at every corner, Overpowered games leading to excessive munchkinism, canon events from 10,000 years ago affecting the game to the day, etc.
Sadly, the massive success Eberron has with the new generation of gamers (my generation) has convinced WoTC to "reform" FR along those same lines to keep it alive in essence. I doubt they even consitered the whims of their older fan just because they wanted more $.
The Realms before were too intimidating to most people that sought it out due to the absolutly massive amount of lore most individuals had to swallow down, I think WoTC is trying to uncomplicate the situation and make it more appealing to people who don't care about the lore and just want to get into the gaming.
You never had to swallow the lore down unless you wished to... I know I had tons of fun in the Realms before I had the first clue as to its history. Just got better once I did know it.
-Exactly.
You never had to swallow the lore down unless you wished to... I know I had tons of fun in the Realms before I had the first clue as to its history. Just got better once I did know it.
Unfortunatly that is not so apparent to some people.
Unfortunatly that is not so apparent to some people.
-Unfortunatley not, but it's the truth. By 'giving in' to such thought, you make it more of a reality.
"It's all a bad dream, it's a all bad dream. Yes, that's it, it's all a bad dream."
-Unfortunatley not, but it's the truth. By 'giving in' to such thought, you make it more of a reality.
For oneself that is. I personally am not a huge supporter of Objectivism;)
For oneself that is. I personally am not a huge supporter of Objectivism;)
-I am. :P
-I am. :P
I'm more of a Kantist myself when it comes to metaphysics.
Ahh Ayn rand, the true founder of Leveyan Satanism
I'm more of a Kantist myself when it comes to metaphysics.
-Bah, I dislike Kant. But, only his views of morality and ethics, really.
-Bah, I dislike Kant. But, only his views of morality and ethics, really.
Right now I am looking into Gnosticism and so far it seems like Christianity for smart people:D , the perfect religion for me.
-Well, good luck with that. To paraphrase Pascal, in The Wager, "It's better to have a deity than not have a deity, just in case."
Which is why I am completly perplexed with Jehovah's Witnesses. Why worship a God that you know is not going to send you to Heaven? Your spirit is just going to expire.
-Don't know enough about Jehova's Witnesses, except that they are quite annoying pushing their beliefs on others, to comment.
They've stopped at my home 2 times now, so I just entertain them with religious debates. They have a funny way of steering the topic away from my questions and giving completly irrelevent answers in response.
They've stopped at my home 2 times now, so I just entertain them with religious debates. They have a funny way of steering the topic away from my questions and giving completly irrelevent answers in response.
-I did that at work once, partly because I didn't want to be a you know what, and ignore the guy (I am a Park Ranger, so it makes it kind of hard), and partly because I like listening to these types of people, and in retrospect, identify the fallacies, assumptions and errors in their arguments. I got in trouble from my boss afterwards, who ironically enough, is some sort of evangelical Christian who stopped trying to push her beliefs on me after a new hire came to the office who was much more like her than me (her, being a black woman from Arkansas, me being a white guy from Brooklyn).
What if the changes were explained in a coherent and enjoyably flavorful manner, would that greatly please people?
I have a question, throwing out a hypothetical here.
What if the changes were explained in a coherent and enjoyably flavorful manner, would that greatly please people?
Yes, that would make me feel much better. If everything is logical and no old lore is left in space, it will still be the realm to me.
I have a question, throwing out a hypothetical here.
What if the changes were explained in a coherent and enjoyably flavorful manner, would that greatly please people?
-Of course. An explanation as to why Tymora is doing something very uncharacteristic of her ("Tymora was literally being controlled by the Queen of Air and Darkness, and...") would do wonders.
-The problem is, we are projecting a lot of rough edges on the finished product. While 9 times out of 10, it's fairly easy enough to smooth these edges ourself, these are the sort of things that should be dealt with when changes are preposed/adapted.
-If the police suddenly came to your door and kidnapped your brother, I'm sure you'd be extremely displeased. You'd certainly be wondering, "What the hell!?". But, if they came to your dor with an arrest warrant, and found your brother in his room in the process of making bombs, with a hit list, things would make much more sense.
-
-If the police suddenly came to your door and kidnapped your brother, I'm sure you'd be extremely displeased. You'd certainly be wondering, "What the hell!?". But, if they came to your dor with an arrest warrant, and found your brother in his room in the process of making bombs, with a hit list, things would make much more sense.
The thing is, people are acting like the sky is falling when we still have to wait an entire half year before FRCS 4e comes out. Its like going on a rant against the police over a rumor that they are going to kidnap your brother an entire month before they actually released the warrent.
The thing is, people are acting like the sky is falling when we still have to wait an entire half year before FRCS 4e comes out. Its like going on a rant against the police over a rumor that they are going to kidnap your brother an entire month before they actually released the warrent.
-The changes to the Realms are done. What we have been told about has already been implemented. So, it's more like rumors, where the papers have been signed, and the poilice area already en route.
-The changes to the Realms are done. What we have been told about has already been implemented. So, it's more like rumors, where the papers have been signed, and the poilice area already en route.
No, more like the police is en route but we have only been given fragments of the warrent to stir paranoia. They don't give us "We will arrive on August 16th at approximatly 6:00 PM to arrest your brother Stan on charges of the First Degree murder of Dani Zeb and her unborn child Philip." They give us, "We........on.......arrest........brother......murder......unborn." It is really hard to get the truth on what is actually going on because all we know is from little interviews and fragments which were most likely designed as an advertising tactic to get us pumped for 4e but backfired.
Just look at Holy Blood, Holy Grail, fascinating read, a historical fallacy based off of old Semetic texts littered with more holes than Swiss cheese.
Please, our kids(and grandkids:D ) don't give a flying flip about WoTC. It's called a computer WoTC. It's called WoW(where I have happily played in a world that is a Gygax wet dream). It's called Guild Wars. It has multiple names and persona.
Maybe we will get lucky and WoTC and "Kiddyland" will sell it back to somebody who cares about the genre, and not just their $.
-I did that at work once, partly because I didn't want to be a you know what, and ignore the guy (I am a Park Ranger, so it makes it kind of hard), and partly because I like listening to these types of people, and in retrospect, identify the fallacies, assumptions and errors in their arguments. I got in trouble from my boss afterwards, who ironically enough, is some sort of evangelical Christian who stopped trying to push her beliefs on me after a new hire came to the office who was much more like her than me (her, being a black woman from Arkansas, me being a white guy from Brooklyn).
Lucky guy, in my country there is a long standing tradition among free thinkers to mess with Witnesses ideology. Some of them resign from the faith after that :D
My GF parents are Witnesses, thankfully they became Witnesses after she formed her own mind.
I think, if anything, they'll be muting the power level of magic too... or else bringing everyone else into line with arcane spellcasters.
I'm betting that they're leaning more towards the nerfing of mages.
At will Magic Missiles are nerfing? Sorry, just not swallowing the concept...
But they'll decrease it's power to be less damaging than the sweep of a sword.
The way I look at is this - they are NOT nerfing casters. If anything, they will become much more versatile, at least in combat situations.
Before, at lower levels, the 'Tanks' ruled. At middling levels, everyone was of equal value. Then at high/Epic levels, anything other then a mage was just a waste of Oxygen.
What their plan is, if they are successful, is to make everyone of equal value at ALL levels. This means that they need to make the mage stronger at lower levels, and sword-swingers better at the higher ones. They can't nerf the fighters at low level, because then they'd be damaging the thing that is working fine. So that means making spellcasters more 'beefy' at the lower levels. Problem with that is that now encounters are going to go pretty quick, unles they also adjust the AC and HP systems. I did this IMG, and it worked rather well. Only crits do any 'real damage', with the rest being easily healed scrapes and bruises. That means mages can take more hits early on (something they've needed for awhile), but at the same time, so too will the bad guys.
At higher levels, marshal PCs will get all kinds of cool Feats and talents to offset the mages awsome arsenal, so that they won't feel like they are just the distraction anymore.
The fact that they have devided the levels into three tiers (I forget the exact 4e terminology ATM) indicates to me that they have astutely (yes, I'm throwing them a compliment here) recognized the three levels of gameplay. I would suspect that middling levels will play out much like they do with the current version of the game, since that was the most balanced part.
Also, Mages will not be getting more or less powerful spells; it's just that their spells will now be spread out amongst thirty levels. I think the last five levels will probably have some new heavy-hitter Epic level stuff going on (battlefield magic, wheather control, Siesmic mastery, etc), but I'm sure most of the spells we know will still be recognizable and spread across the first 25 levels. The spells themselves will NOT be getting stronger, the MAGES will be. Self-replenishing spells is a long time in coming in D&D, and it's something I think will really improve gameplay.
Atheism all the way. Daniel-side.
I generally was not an avid fan of mages in D&D or PC games based off of it. All that metamagic, alchemy, and specific feat stuff confused the crap out of me and half of the time I was trying to figure out how half of a mage's features worked that I didn't have time to enjoy the game. Now a mage works almost like a fighter with his favored weapon with tomes, starves, wands, and orbs giving support to different kinds of magic, as well as lumping certain technicalities down into rituals. It looks good to me!
Nietzsche for the win.
Atheism all the way. Daniel-side.
Atheism is one thing, but I consider myself an Agnostic really. I think there IS something out there greater then us, but I don't think any of the established religions have it quite right.
Funny thing about Agnosticism - years a group got together and petitioned the Federal Gov't to recognize Agnoticism as a religious choice unto itself, so that now when you fill out one of those forms that asks you your religion, it would be on there as a choice.
Now, in a nutshell, Agnosticism means that you believe in God, but NOT organized religion...
Isn't that a bit... Oxymoronic?
Atheism is easier.
I think there might be, but current scientific data does not reveal any cohesive conclusions that would lead to a cogent divine entity.
Atheism is easier.
Oh Dan you poor fool...don't you realize that attempting to use human logic to make decisive assumptions about the universe will only result in an infinate amount of questions with no ending? there are certain things that mankind was not meant to know or could ever know.
There is always Deism, the safe alternative to Atheism and Agnosticism, just in case something IS out there.
Now, I/we could be mistaken. Maybe this all really does make sense, and we're just not seeing it yet. However, none of the previews/teasers that have been given grant me that sense, and most tend to do the opposite.
I really want to stay involved with the Realms, and keep buying the products. It's taken a lot to convince me otherwise.I hope they can reverse that. I'm not optimistic, but I hope they can.
Now, can I just ignore it all, and say "not in my Realms?" I have before, but the changes this time are of such magnitude that I'll basically be playing a different game from anyone that is familiar with the 4e version. Thus, it's a much bigger task than simply saying "Bane isn't dead in my Realms" (from back in 2e).
Furthermore, though, I am a fan of the storyline, as well. I can't stop them from killing that, and ending any desire for involvement I have with the novels or other products related to that.
Oh, and as for the notion that it's a good thing that all non-evil drow (except Drizzt) are getting removed - I disagree. I, for one, enjoy(ed) the theme of forgiveness and redemption that Eilistraee represents (or represented). I think there are a lot of opportunities for much more intelligent and poignant stories in worlds suffused by shades of grey, rather than the stark good or evil "lightswitch" notion. I also tend to think that reinforcing Drizzt's status as unique just tends to make him more obnoxious, and less believable as a character... but that's just me. :P
Furthermore, though, I am a fan of the storyline, as well. I can't stop them from killing that, and ending any desire for involvement I have with the novels or other products related to that.
Thats why I am begging them to do some anthologies set during the Spellplague years, so we can get some closure.
I think there might be, but current scientific data does not reveal any cohesive conclusions that would lead to a cogent divine entity.
Thats why it's called FAITH, Dan. ;)
If you could prove it, then your faith would be meaningless.
Its wonderful to know science, but you need to be a dreamer to apply it, and create new things. Being a dreamer requires imagination, and a belief in the impossible. Where would we be without all the 'lunatics', like the Wright Brothers and Tesla? You NEED to believe in something MORE Dan, else you bind your creativity with the ropes of knowledge. ;)
Hmmm...No religious wars. No holy land...No suicide bombers?
Wow...I could really get behind that idea.
We'd have a lot more people in general.
Thus the world would be even more overpopulated than it already is.
-Well, good luck with that. To paraphrase Pascal, in The Wager, "It's better to have a deity than not have a deity, just in case."
Ack--with all due respect to Pascal, I don't agree with the premise of his wager.
Didn't know you were a park ranger. Neat.
Thus the world would be even more overpopulated than it already is.
We'd also have never encountered those silly "sex without procreation" problems that the Catholics had. And we would have developed science and mathematics a little earlier, and figured out ideas to solve such problems, rather than just endlessly debating the negligible moral dilemmas associated with them.
Or have you forgotten about the Nazi's medical experimentation?
Sure... they learned a lot....
We'd have a lot more people in general.
Hmmm...No religious wars. No holy land...No suicide bombers?
Wow...I could really get behind that idea.
Imagine
Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
Stinkin' hippies... ;)
We'd also have never encountered those silly "sex without procreation" problems that the Catholics had. And we would have developed science and mathematics a little earlier, and figured out ideas to solve such problems, rather than just endlessly debating the negligible moral dilemmas associated with them.
Hmm, Earth would already be in cinders right now if we went down your path GD. Heck, we would have been replaced by machines by now.
I am certainly not defending the Catholic Church or any of their monstrous actions, I am stating that cold logic and experimentation without morality as a counterbalance would lead to an utter disregard of social conventions in favor of recklessness, which would inevitably lead to a rapid demise for the civilization in question.
Just look at Communism. In theory it sounded like utopia, but the high focus on development and state progress over all else without even consitering other factors only led to failure.
Thats why I lean heavily toward Zen... even though I label my self an "unafiliated Christian'.
Truthfully, it's not about Good and Evil, Law and chaos, but about BALANCE. All things in moderation and all that.
Thats why I lean heavily toward Zen... even though I label my self an "unafiliated Christian'.
I'm asian, I understand you perfectly;)
Right now I'm an unafiliated Christian leaning towards either Deism or Gnosticism. With some Taoism beliefs as well
Just look at Communism. In theory it sounded like utopia, but the high focus on development and state progress over all else without even consitering other factors only led to failure.
Yeah, it had other problems too... Ironically, one Communist head of state, after his fall from power, said the following. "Isn't it strange? We were building Communism for 45 years - and in the end, it was the Swedeswho built it."
I have a question, throwing out a hypothetical here.
What if the changes were explained in a coherent and enjoyably flavorful manner, would that greatly please people?
Probably not. If Mystra's gone, she's gone, no matter how the story is written.
Yeah, it had other problems too... Ironically, one Communist head of state, after his fall from power, said the following. "Isn't it strange? We were building Communism for 45 years - and in the end, it was the Swedeswho built it."
Yup, Communism failed, but Scandanavian socialism is working wonders up there.
Also pay attention to China. The result of a Capitalist interests coupled with Communist state power plus control over 1/4 of the world population, as well as most of the world's manufacuring...
yeah
We'd have a lot more people in general.
Unlikely. We'd find an ideology to spark conflict enough. Heck, Soviet communism exterminated upwards of 30 million people before the Holocaust had even started. Human capacity for evil exists regardless of belief system.
Ack--with all due respect to Pascal, I don't agree with the premise of his wager.
-It certainly is flawed, chief among them is the assumption that G-d is the Judeo-Christian G-d.
Didn't know you were a park ranger. Neat.
-Yup. I'm on vacation for the winter, though.
Stinkin' hippies... ;)
-They had their moments.
In otherwards, not my favorite of people.
Kinda like my ex....
Yup, Communism failed, but Scandanavian socialism is working wonders up there.
See also Canada, which is essentially no different from the Nordic welfare model.
I try to avoid labels on my political affiliations... though I do find the term liberal fairly offensive in most respects, at least in its modern connotations as used by conservative types. Which really isn't much better. My own ideal world would be "Do as you will, harm none" and pretty much leave everyone to fend for themselves. Of course I'd also remove any safety label from most products as well, sort of my own version of survival of the fittest... :D
You are a candidate to study Crowley's Thelema: "Do what thou wilt, that shall be the whole of the law."
-Hippies have been both a blessing and a curse. Were it not for the radical 60s, the world might still be like the 50s, with suburbs, apple pies, Leave it to Beaver, white picket fences, etc. On the other hand, you can trace so many of today's problems to hippies...
Curse. Though the people in the 50's had problems too, they just covered them up better.
-Yup. I'm on vacation for the winter, though.
What park do you work at?
I like certain things about the 50s--for example, the music.
Curse. Though the people in the 50's had problems too, they just covered them up better.
-Every region from every era has had it's own problems. I wasn't asserting that the 50s were a 'utopian time'. I simply dislike 'mainstream' 50s, with the overt 'properness'/'stiffiness'. As I said, the only things I like about the 50s would be the Dodgers being back in Brooklyn, and Brooklyn being the idealic, romanticised place of old.
What park do you work at?
-Gateway? It's a chain of parks in NY and NJ. In Jersey, Sandy Hook is under our jurisdiction. So is the Statue of Liberty, which technically is in Jersey.
Yup, Communism failed, but Scandanavian socialism is working wonders up there.
Well, from what my brother in law, who lives in Stockholm atm, tells me, Sweden is not exactly the land of milk and honey anymore. Seems the Swedes all work their behinds off to keep their heads above the waves of Globalization like the rest of us too. Sure, there always is Norway, but they don't count, since they won the lottery with their countless oil billions.
-Gateway? It's a chain of parks in NY and NJ. In Jersey, Sandy Hook is under our jurisdiction. So is the Statue of Liberty, which technically is in Jersey.
Neat, I've been to both those places.
they are finally putting an end to the annoying Vancian magic system. All that metamagic, alchemy, and specific feat stuff confused the crap out of me and half of the time I was trying to figure out how half of a mage's features worked that I didn't have time to enjoy the game. Now a mage works almost like a fighter. It looks good to me!
XHereticX - Dying in a mosh pit ...
When people talk about the sterotypical 'kiddie' the game is being dumbed down for, they're talking about you.
Well, not the 4e Realms, that's a different story altogether...
Originally Posted by Darvon
XHereticX - Dying in a mosh pit ...
When people talk about the sterotypical 'kiddie' the game is being dumbed down for, they're talking about you.
Coming from someone whose username is a narcotic drug...the irony
XHereticX - Dying in a mosh pit ...
When people talk about the sterotypical 'kiddie' the game is being dumbed down for, they're talking about you.
-Way to make a useful point...
So congratulations WotC, you've finally done what peer pressure in high school and accusations of Satanism/witchcraft by fanatical churchgoers couldn't do: You've made me give up D&D. Not completely mind you. I'll still play when I can. But I will be damned to the bottom of the Nine Hells before I ever, EVER, purchase a new D&D book.
Now I've been away for awhile. I quit my job and joined the Army, so I've been out of touch with the D&D world. I heard about 4e and I thought "I'll keep an open mind". Then I read the last couple pages of the Grand History. I nearly vomited when I read that crap. Now the more I read about the upcoming changes, the more nauseous I get.
So congratulations WotC, you've finally done what peer pressure in high school and accusations of Satanism/witchcraft by fanatical churchgoers couldn't do: You've made me give up D&D. Not completely mind you. I'll still play when I can. But I will be damned to the bottom of the Nine Hells before I ever, EVER, purchase a new D&D book.
-Coming from a veteran such as yourself, that is a deep blow.
-That has a nice ring to it...
-As long as you still lurk around and contribute, no harm to us. I know I for one am not playing 4e, but I'll still be hanging around here, a testament to the "Realms that Were".
-That has a nice ring to it...
Maybe we should create a setting with that name.
I'll still lurk around these boards like I always have. I just refuse to accept any new 4e lore about the Realms.
Welcome to the club (and of course, welcome back).
Not that I personally know one way or the other, but it WILL be interesting... ;)
It's a good thing you're coming back R. I'm going away. That piece of crap E got me a warning. Somebody kick em in the nuts. Hard.
Qui?
XHereticX - Dying in a mosh pit ...
When people talk about the sterotypical 'kiddie' the game is being dumbed down for, they're talking about you.
Wow, you made 1 post since August and it was just a cheap shot at my sense of humor. Please quit weed and get a life.
Come back when you can actually call yourself an expert on Realmslore and then we'll talk.
...but I'll still be hanging around here, a testament to the "Realms that Were".
OMG....get in line behind the 2E players who cried about 3E and proclaimed the exact same thing.
I have plenty of cheese to go with that whine, should you like some.
:P :P :P :P
I hanker for the days of 1e Realms. :P
Sorry but after I purchased the 2ed material I stopped buying D&D stuff. I got my realms the way I like them and I'm not about to change because some executive thinks we should just because he couldn't figure out THACO. It wasn't that damn hard people! Saving throws could have been a bit of a mess but we got through. Combat techniques wear thought up and discussed on the fly while someone was moving a lead figure around and getting an idea.
What ruined it for me is when they started to put out the "Complete Books". Yes now you can create a monk character in the priests book. Nothing in there wasn't anything a good D.M. and his players couldn't sit down and figure out. It was fluff and nothing more.
More books than you could shake a stick at. Then the ToT came in. Gods being killed, the Realms in an uproar, Azon dead. Sorry I stopped there. The ToT never made it to my table and never will, let alone this spellplague crap.
No problems here.
-Nothing has updated for me in over 24 hours. It's real annoying...Hmm...
What ruined it for me ....
See?
Not saying Wyre's wrong....just that with each change comes an 'old-guard' attitude.
::::::::
It's great that people want to preserve an 'old feel'...just don't disparage the new stuff in the process. (Talking to Karsus, not Wyre here).
Especially when it hasn’t even seen print yet.
And yes, karsus, I started a thread about the problems, and found that there is an on-going thread about it (in the MtG forums), where the 'weekend-guy' has patched the servers so that they will now update the pages. Unfortunetly, the patch has slowed everything down as well.
It has something to do with them trying to get the 'Search feature' working again. Unfortunetly, the regular techs aren't around on the Weekends, so we will have to deal with the 'crawl' until Monday.
It's great that people want to preserve an 'old feel'...just don't disparage the new stuff in the process. (Talking to Karsus, not Wyre here).
Especially when it hasn’t even seen print yet.
-I can disparage whatever I like. I only do so when I see reason, to, however. I disparage the parts of 4e Forgotten Realms that I don't like/don't agree with, and don't disparage the parts of 4e Forgotten Realms that I do like.
And yes, karsus, I started a thread about the problems, and found that their is an on-going thread about it (in the MtG forums), where the 'weekend-guy' has patched the servers so that they will now update the pages. Unfortunetly, the patch has slowed everything down as well.
It has something to do with them trying to get the 'Search feature' working again. Unfortunetly, the regular techs aren't around on the Weekends, so we will have to deal with the 'crawl' until Monday.
-Ah, makes some sense. The 'problem' has cleared up for me, so...
-I thought it was somehow KtM's doing...
-I can disparage whatever I like. I only do so when I see reason, to, however.
Thank goodness you rely on such a well rounded and mature philosophy. Lord knows it's....oh nevermind.
Btw....which part of 4E were you talking about when you made the "...testament to the Realms that were." comment?
Seemed to me you were baggin all of it just then, but I'm sure by your solid reasoning you made a distinction in there somewhere, right?
Thank goodness you rely on such a well rounded and mature philosophy. Lord knows it's....oh nevermind.
-I'm not even going to dignify that one with an actual response. If you want to pick fights, however...
Btw....which part of 4E were you talking about when you made the "...testament to the Realms that were." comment?
Seemed to me you were baggin all of it just then, but I'm sure by your solid reasoning you made a distinction in there somewhere, right?
-You seem to have misinterpreted what I said and meant. No biggie. As a testament to the 'Realms that Were', I will be around to answer questions about the way things were, help those who ignore the changes in the 4e FRCS, and are continuing in the past, etc. And, hopefully, other Realmslore scholars here will as well.
-And, as it stands right now, there is nothing I like about the 4e changes to the Forgotten Realms. The 4e core rules, I don't care about much- I wasn't planning on converting to begin with. That doesn't mean, however, that something can't be written that I'll like, and endorse.
I don't plan on moving my campaign forward (in fact, it hasn't moved at all in months
), but some of the lore contained therein may prove useful to me in converting my 3.5 world to the 4e rules.I do plan on buying the FRCG - I will decide then weather to make any future FR purchases based on that.
Besides, there so much more we can have fun arguiing about, like "Swamp Hobbits". :P
Screw that new-fangled 2e!
I hanker for the days of 1e Realms. :P
My group meets on every other Friday! We're always glad to have new players.
Next Friday is a gaming day...Stone Giants are on the menu!
Google "Radioactive Tumbleweeds" and you will have a good idea on where I am hiding.
My group meets on every other Friday! We're always glad to have new players.
-Heh, that's right, I forgot that's your forte.
-I'm not even going to dignify that one with an actual response. If you want to pick fights, however...
-You seem to have misinterpreted what I said and meant. No biggie. As a testament to the 'Realms that Were', I will be around to answer questions about the way things were, help those who ignore the changes in the 4e FRCS, and are continuing in the past, etc. And, hopefully, other Realmslore scholars here will as well.
-And, as it stands right now, there is nothing I like about the 4e changes to the Forgotten Realms. The 4e core rules, I don't care about much- I wasn't planning on converting to begin with. That doesn't mean, however, that something can't be written that I'll like, and endorse.
-So is [b][u]"The Lord Karsus Seal of Approval"[/b][/u], like [b][u]"The Good House Keeping Seal of Approval"[/b][/u]?:D
-So is [b][u]"The Lord Karsus Seal of Approval"[/b][/u], like [b][u]"The Good House Keeping Seal of Approval"[/b][/u]?:D
-It's like that, but infinitley better.
"Kid Tested, Mother Approved". :P
How about The Good Spell-Keeping Seal?
More like -
"Kid Tested, Mother Approved". :P
How about The Good Spell-Keeping Seal?
-"Kid Karsus tested, Mother Mystra Approved". Hey you could use that with your Ultimate Realms' MarkusTay63.
-WotC would make it "Kid Cyric Tested, Mother Shar Approved"!!!
-Btw 1000th post at 3:20 pm Texas time!!!
Man, that was fast - and hardly any 'whining', either. :P
Grats on yours, Delta.
-Btw 1000th post at 3:20 pm Texas time!!!
Holy crap, after little over five months? I've got 2200 after six YEARS! Then again, I'm something of a board gypsy. I post furiously for a while, get tired of discussing the subject, and move on to some other board to talk about something else. Before I started posting regularly here, again, I was at the NWN2 boards. And before then I was at a 40k board, and before that I was at a comic book board, and before that I was here, again, and so on.
I just checked mine... I blew past 5000 without realizing it... last time I checked (just a few days ago) it was around 4750.
Man, that was fast - and hardly any 'whining', either. :P
Grats on yours, Delta.
-
:D I would have never thought that on August 16th 2007. When 4E was announced and I joined the Forum's that this scared little boy would well, still be a scared little boy.:P :P :P ;)To make things work with 4E they have decided to kill FR, and bring forth a "new" FR that's basically a retard-compatible version of the old realms.
This sounds SO like what happened with Dragonlance & Dark Sun when they killed those settings.
Ok, so let's get this straight.
To make things work with 4E they have decided to kill FR, and bring forth a "new" FR that's basically a retard-compatible version of the old realms.
This sounds SO like what happened with Dragonlance & Dark Sun when they killed those settings.
Maybe. I hear positive things from people who have stopped gaming in the Realms though. They switched to Eberron or other worlds but are thinking about coming back to the Realms. At this point anything is possible.
Ok, so let's get this straight.
To make things work with 4E they have decided to kill FR, and bring forth a "new" FR that's basically a retard-compatible version of the old realms.
This sounds SO like what happened with Dragonlance & Dark Sun when they killed those settings.
-That is one possible outcome, yes.
The god situation does not affect me or my game. I will use the lesser deities as is. They will still be there if a PC wants to worship them. Done. Simple really, I will something to happen and **POOF** it happens. Man I love rpgs and imagination!
Indeed, but what hits me hard though is that there's no more stories involving Mystra and the others (I LOVED Helm, he was... imponent) but IF (and that's a BIG "IF") they make a novel about her death that is belivible enough that it fools my senses then I'll be at peace.as tupid as it sound Colosus died in te X-Men books I shed a tear, not becouse he died, but HOW he died.
To make things work with 4E they have decided to kill FR, and bring forth a "new" FR that's basically a retard-compatible version of the old realms.
Maybe. I hear positive things from people who have stopped gaming in the Realms though. They switched to Eberron or other worlds but are thinking about coming back to the Realms. At this point anything is possible.
I'm sorry, but this just struck me FUNNY AS HELL!
You basically just agreed that people who play in other settings are retards, and the 'new FR' is attracting them.
I'm sorry... but thats just TOO funny...
I can't wait until they start posting here on the boards...
"wear cn I git Phat Lewtz?" :evillaugh
I'm sorry, but this just struck me FUNNY AS HELL!
You basically just agreed that people who play in other settings are retards, and the 'new FR' is attracting them.
I'm sorry... but thats just TOO funny...
I can't wait until they start posting here on the boards...
"wear cn I git Phat Lewtz?" :evillaugh
ROFLLMAOPMP
That's very funny and too true.
I'm sorry, but this just struck me FUNNY AS HELL!
You basically just agreed that people who play in other settings are retards, and the 'new FR' is attracting them.
I'm sorry... but thats just TOO funny...
I can't wait until they start posting here on the boards...
"wear cn I git Phat Lewtz?" :evillaugh
That is if the WoTC's new marketing strategy works. I am personally predicting a failure.
Simple really, I will something to happen and **POOF** it happens. Man I love rpgs and imagination!
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080111a
There is no question about it, i my opinion they have ruined the Realms...
One silent moment for the dead Realms...
All hail Classical Realms...
WotC can not stop the Realms, we have all the information, we can keep playing in our Realms as long as we wan't to...
I can imagine that it ruined the Realms though. I will however get the FRCS before I make any final decisions.
Well now they have released som info.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080111a
There is no question about it, i my opinion they have ruined the Realms...
What a load of crap. They really are trying to turn FR into Eberron.
My interest in the "Newer Editions" only went as far as to finding things to rework back to Classic Realms ...
To the opinions of my players and myself, 4ED just won't be the Realms anymore...
Unlike those on these boards who like to speak for "Everyone!", I can only speak for myself...Have fun with 4ED...but I will not be there beside you.
My campaign meets every other Friday, out where the radioactive tumbleweeds roam [google it to get a clue as to where I am hiding!], we are always eager to get new players.
Maybe we'll be seeing some of you?
Bye dude; I'm off to Classic Realms.
This is why they did a 100 year jump I figure.
I'll still lurk around these boards like I always have. I just refuse to accept any new 4e lore about the Realms. I thought the whole "Great Tree" debacle was bad, but WotC went way, way over the top with this crap. It's enough to make me long for the glory days of T$R.
I agree with you completely (down to the last sentence ;)) -- I will keep playing 3E and lurk on these boards, but from now on I'll concentrate my efforts on posting mainly on "pro-3E" forums.
Ahh, don't have a WoTC Insider acco unt, can't access it.
The entire article was quoted on this thread -
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9912&whichpage=21
Just scroll down to Venger's post. ;)
You never had to swallow the lore down unless you wished to... I know I had tons of fun in the Realms before I had the first clue as to its history. Just got better once I did know it.
I agree. I've used two kinds of approach with "newbie" gamers: either I've provided a short write-up (a couple of pages) with recent news/events, rumours and history *or* I've just provided a short description ("The world is called Toril, and you live on a continent known as 'Faerûn', somewhere in the North. There's a large and wondrous city called 'Waterdeep' to the southwest...") and let things (and questions) flow naturally during gameplay ("Yes, you've heard some rumours and stories of an evil organization called 'The Zhentarim'."). I have the latter "method" to work even better, because each player could always ask any number of questions that he/she thought would be relevant information to his/her PC without feeling "intimidated" or "flooded with information".
That is if the WoTC's new marketing strategy works. I am personally predicting a failure.
Although I can only speak on behalf of four different gaming groups (that I belong to), all of them have decided to stick to 3E for a few years, at least. So, I wish good luck to WoTC with 4E and 4E FR especially -- it may be too early to predict anything, but my "gut feeling" is that 4E products will not surpass the sales of 3E stuff (especially as all the D&D fans I personally know are now frantically ordering those 3E books that are missing from their collections).
The entire article was quoted on this thread -
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9912&whichpage=21
Just scroll down to Venger's post. ;)
Hey, this stuff actually dosen't sound half-bad. I especially like the whole New Netheril thing. Even though I don't like the idea of Chondath being transformed into "the plaguelands." Smacks too much of WoW. And the formarians being a major threat, wtf?...
I do have some interest in the dragonborn however, and their obvious future wars with the Mulhorandi (if they are even still there).
The Sword Coast is unchanged, yay
. Yet the whole deal with the Feywild just stinks of Eberron right now..., and Thay...not good...Hmm, I retract some of my former statements on not having any hope in 4e FR. Some of the changes are cool, others are crap, but all in all I will wait till the FRCS before making my final decision.
Bye WotC.
The Sword Coast is unchanged, yay
Heh - one of the few things I liked was what was done with Thay - I see them becoming darker and more insular - no more Thaymart! :P
As for the Feywild, a lot of us have been craving some Faerie love for some time now, so we will take whatever we can get.
The Swordcoast - "meh"; I never ran a game there, or ran in one that took place there. I have always been a big 'Dalelands' player/DM, and I'm afraid for what might be with all these new 'super-powers' cramming around them. hard to get that 'rustic' feel, with all that political intrigue going on in your backyard.
I get the feeling the Swordcoast was left untouched simply because of the video games - I'm sure at least one company is working on one as we speak, and WotC didn't want to screw with THAT franchise. Thats why Baldur's Gate just got itself a shiney new coat of 'Plot Armor'. Don't want to mess with the 'cash cow', and all of that. ;)
But whatever, its all good - I will use what I like, and throw out the rest. Right now, it sounds like I may need to get a bigger trash can...
Glad I could help.
Heh - one of the few things I liked was what was done with Thay - I see them becoming darker and more insular - no more Thaymart! :P
Yet, I recall that there's a "Mythal-like"-magic covering the Ruins of Delmihumide (which fall under Szass Tam's rule, IIRC). Now, no matter if you're a NE Archmage Lich, I don't see why Tam -- after noticing that the Spellplague seems to "flow" around the ruins -- wouldn't "rescue" his fellow Red Wizards (at least the most significant and/or loyal wizards). Maybe he would even open an "asylum" for *all* the Red Wizards (his fellow Zulkirs included) for a price? Anyway, if my memory just serves me correctly, I don't it's even remotely realistic to assume that the Red Wizards will be gone. Even if most of them were driven insane by the Spellplague before they had the chance to react, you'd think that Tam would use his minions to "rescue" them and try his best to cure them.
Yet, I recall that there's a "Mythal-like"-magic covering the Ruins of Delmihumide (which fall under Szass Tam's rule, IIRC). Now, no matter if you're a NE Archmage Lich, I don't see why Tam -- after noticing that the Spellplague seems to "flow" around the ruins -- wouldn't "rescue" his fellow Red Wizards (at least the most significant and/or loyal wizards). Maybe he would even open an "asylum" for *all* the Red Wizards (his fellow Zulkirs included) for a price? Anyway, if my memory just serves me correctly, I don't it's even remotely realistic to assume that the Red Wizards will be gone. Even if most of them were driven insane by the Spellplague before they had the chance to react, you'd think that Tam would use his minions to "rescue" them and try his best to cure them.
Whatever, the whole Unclean series will explain anything that will happen to Thay leading up to the Spellplague.
Though Tam is far more likely to kill his fellow mages and resurrect them as undead slaves. I can see Thay as an undead state ruled by a Lich King quite easily, consitering the many other elements WoTC has been ripping from Warcraft as of late.
That is if the WoTC's new marketing strategy works. I am personally predicting a failure.
How great would a failure be. I would love a 2009 FRCS set in say 1387 or something after they realize no one likes what they did and it attracts zero new gamers.
Or better yet, the rights revert back to Ed who takes it to another publisher.
we can dream right?
How great would a failure be. I would love a 2009 FRCS set in say 1387 or something after they realize no one likes what they did and it attracts zero new gamers.
Or better yet, the rights revert back to Ed who takes it to another publisher.
we can dream right?
Well, at least we would get longer books with Ed, and more attention to the community as well;)
The Realms you all love were created by Ed, AND alot of other people. There is a ton of ideas that others invented that people consider "core" FR canon now. Like Ubber says, a game setting run by just Ed might not be as "perfect" as you think it would be. Careful what you wish for...
Ed dosen't work alone though;) Elaine an others will still be there to help him.
Ahh, don't have a WoTC Insider acco unt, can't access it.
I can imagine that it ruined the Realms though. I will however get the FRCS before I make any final decisions.
-Right now, it's all free. All you need is your E-Mail, and your Boards password.
Ed dosen't work alone though;) Elaine an others will still be there to help him.
-If the setting became 'Ed Only', I'd likely not follow it. However, it it became something akin to the 'Great Triumverate' of Ed Greenwood, Steve Schend and Elaine Cunningham, with with other 'regulars' helping on different features, that'd be cool.
I have my group of 6 players runnin' in the realms for the past 2 years, now level 15-16th... I'm trying really hard to live with the fact that a superior being like "Tyr" has killed his best buddy "Torm" over some "flirt" with another deity.
Unless these are retarded deities, obviously.
But then, Mystra gets killed by Cyric (AGAIN? OMFG, this reminds me of that retarded "Sylar" evil guy in the series "Heroes" that just never wants to freaking die and always come back to kill the fun you had), and Shar.
Again, that MIGHT happen since Cyric is Cyric and he seems to be able to do whatever he can do.
So, I told myself that the realm has descended into an idiocracy (just like the movie, you should watch it), and that over the years, the general IQ of the folks in FR has lowered dangerously, to the point where even Deities were retarded now.
So, having most of the folks and Gods of FR retarded now, they can make it more available to retarded players, that MAYBE, will buy more books and products... maybe... I highly doubt so, but maybe.
BUT, in case that doesn't work, the beautiful administrative people over at WOTC decided that "Hey, if that is not retarded enough, let's just put simpler rules, with "nicer graphics" and then retards will buy our books because they have great graphics!" (Works well with movies, trust me).
So what's cooler to have in a books then a "Dragonborn race", Ain't that freaking cool? So they decided to simply destroy Unther and put a "Dragonborn" race that comes out of nowhere instead in it! Now, have you seen how ****ing cool those dragonborns are? If retards don't buy books with cool dragonborn pictures in it, then nothing will work!
That's where I stand now. I am zen. I accept that FR has fallen under an idiocracy. That is it governed by idiot folks, idiotic gods, idiotic pantheons, idiotic races.
I'm happy I did not buy all those FR books (My players aren't that lucky though). Specially since they are all obsolete now with the new 100-150 years that have passed. Trust me, I will not buy any new books either, I'll find a way to get their content anyways.
I am happy I knew this was coming to an end. Why would I support a company that does not support me?
-Right now, it's all free. All you need is your E-Mail, and your Boards password.
.
Hn, how do you do that? I can't access any of the articles.
Hn, how do you do that? I can't access any of the articles.
-Your log-in name should simply be the E-mail account you used to register on these boards, and the password should simply be the password you use to log in to these boards. That's how I accessed it, and I don't have a subscription to DRAGON where you have to pay for it. So, it's still free.
-All already own a portion of your soul, so it's all good. ;)
All the Karsii have a portion of my soul? Excellent...excellent..let the plan begin...
All the Karsii have a portion of my soul? Excellent...excellent..let the plan begin...
-No, just me, the Keeper of the Hands. It's sitting in a little glass jat as we speak, shimmering a reddish-brown-yellow color. A few sparkles, too.
-No, just me, the Keeper of the Hands. It's sitting in a little glass jat as we speak, shimmering a reddish-brown-yellow color. A few sparkles, too.
or so you think
The Realms you all love were created by Ed, AND alot of other people. There is a ton of ideas that others invented that people consider "core" FR canon now. Like Ubber says, a game setting run by just Ed might not be as "perfect" as you think it would be. Careful what you wish for...
you are correct, but I'm willing to bet they would be a lot better than what is coming
People like Ed and Schend may come back to do a 'quick piece', because money talks, but they've got their own projects going on these days.
This is a common business model - anyone with real skills eventually outgrows the company, and strikes out on their own. Eventually, the original company is left with mediocre lackeys, rather then anyone with any true vision.
Not saying this is the case with WotC, but it is a very common scenario among businesses. You wind up training you're own competition, until they put you under, and then the cycle starts all over agian.
This happens in retail as well creative enterprises, and WotC happens to be both. I've worked in retail, and I remember some of those 'inner workings' meetings; we we were told we had reached 'maximum saturation level' - what that means is the potential for growth had ended, and the company needed to branch out into new endeavors if it wanted to stay afloat. If a company can't expand (it's customer base), it will die... simple as that.
People and Products become secondary in this kind of environment - if you can't show investors growth, stocks plummet. No one wants that, so comapanies try new things - and in a lot of cases, FAIL. Occassionally a failing company gets lucky (Apple) and comes up with something exciting (Ipod), and the growth commences, stocks go up, and everyone's happy.
I completely understand WHY they felt the need to give us 4e, but I also understand VERY WELL the factors working against them. They're are counting on a 'logshot' to bring home that elusive 'big pay-off', and for their sakes, I hope it happens for them.
WoTC is already showing signs of decline.
2: As 4E is a re-imagening of D&D ment to open the door to a whole new age of gamers while giveing us long time fans a fresh start, it isn't realy made for continueing established groups.
3: I would have to say the number one problem I have had in the past with getting my groups to want to play in FR is the mounten of pre existing lore, to me this makes a great jumping in point.
3: I would have to say the number one problem I have had in the past with getting my groups to want to play in FR is the mounten of pre existing lore, to me this makes a great jumping in point.
-What "mountains of pre existing lore"? All you need is one book to begin playing in the setting: The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Everything else is extraneous and optional. Crazy how that works.
Embrace the lore; do not let it defeat you...
The GM must look at the lore as a guide not a rule. Take what you like and invent the rest.
One problem with the extensive changes in FR is that the GMs storyline for the groups and the lands is ripped from him. WotC has decided to make FR into what they think is cool. The new books will be of no use for me, because they are written in a much more changes FR than the one i will be playing in...
I, personally, think they are making a mistake; they are abandoning the old FR loving players for new players. But maybe it is a better deal, after all they are a company not a social group. I just think it is sad to se the new developing leaving my path.
I will play in my interpretation of the FR universe, the road will just be without WotC.
LK, I know it seems crazy for gamers to be intimidated by Realmslore but that seems to be the case. Not all, but alot of gamers seem put off by it for some reason. Again it is really just a perception thing. Personally I do not believe this, but I know many casual players that do. That is why many now play Eberron. That campaign has a lot of Lore but since it is a new campaign world people just don't see it that way.
LK, I know it seems crazy for gamers to be intimidated by Realmslore but that seems to be the case. Not all, but alot of gamers seem put off by it for some reason. Again it is really just a perception thing. Personally I do not believe this, but I know many casual players that do. That is why many now play Eberron. That campaign has a lot of Lore but since it is a new campaign world people just don't see it that way.
I agree, and that is why they should play Eberron. The Realms should stay the way they are for people like me who loves to read all that Realmslore.
WOTC is a business though and want both product lines to do well. SO if one is doing better in sales then that campaign model might be used on the other setting. I have no proof of this, but it is the only reason I can think of for the change.
-Sales data we can access proves otherwise (sales for the Realms are greater than sales for Eberron), so much of the current percieved designer mantra of 'making the Realms more 'Eberrony' puzzles me.
I think WOTC realizes most average campaigns last months or maybe 2 years max. 5 to 20 year campaigns probably are rare.
Campaigns that last that long might be rare. If they are (and they probably are) I feel lucky. In 21 years, I've ran exactly four different FR campaigns, so that averages out to just over five years per campaign. Some lasted longer than others, but still.
I agree, and that is why they should play Eberron. The Realms should stay the way they are for people like me who loves to read all that Realmslore.
I agree with that. Why not just make Eberron the feature world for all the "super cool" stuff and leave FR without such radical changes (changes are fine, but change to the point of near-unrecognizability is far too radical).
-What "mountains of pre existing lore"? All you need is one book to begin playing in the setting: The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Everything else is extraneous and optional. Crazy how that works.
Gods, I agree with that! I've always been amazed at the number of people - DMs and players alike - that feel they absolutely must have every single FR product and memorize them before they can play. I wish I could meet some of those folks in real life. These are probably the same people who need to see the list of ingredients before ordering from the menu at a restaurant...
I feel blessed than none of the players in my FR games over the past 21 years ever felt that way. Heck, most of them never even read a single FR product or novel that I didn't personally hand to them and ask them to read, and they had no trouble at all having fun. You know why? Because they had something called an "imagination" and could make things up on their own.
Gods, I agree with that! I've always been amazed at the number of people - DMs and players alike - that feel they absolutely must have every single FR product and memorize them before they can play. I wish I could meet some of those folks in real life. These are probably the same people who need to see the list of ingredients before ordering from the menu at a restaurant...
-Sometimes, I think that people (not necessarily D1Tremere) don't really know what they are talking about, when it comes to this, so they just spout what other people like to spout.
-Sales data we can access proves otherwise (sales for the Realms are greater than sales for Eberron), so much of the current percieved designer mantra of 'making the Realms more 'Eberrony' puzzles me.
I said I have no prrof and you only have one form of "proof" :Amazon.com.
Your "proof" is really invalid since there are many other ways for people to buy FR products.
Anyway I am just saying in my mind the only reason for the change is that FR sales were slipping. If they were strong WOTC would not want to change the setting. As a business why would they change something that had strong sales? They were going to change EB but changed their minds, but continued with the FR changes. Just saying...
I said I have no prrof and you only have one form of "proof" :Amazon.com.
Your "proof" is really invalid since there are many other ways for people to buy FR products.
-As Merrik has pointed out, prices of Forgotten Realms products are higher than similar Eberron products on E-Bay. So, that's two. I can speak from personal experience that the smaller of the two bookstores I go to has, literally, had the same Eberron products on the shelves for about two months now (I actually was reading the back cover of a book, and then put the book back on the shelf, albeit no longer in alphabetical order- it's still like that), whereas the Forgotten Realms products are moved off of the shelf (if not by anyone else, by me). So, that's three sources, as opposed to none.
-What are we arguing about again?
Anyway I am just saying in my mind the only reason for the change is that FR sales were slipping. If they were strong WOTC would not want to change the setting. As a business why would they change something that had strong sales? They were going to change EB but changed their minds, but continued with the FR changes. Just saying...
If sales of FR were slipping it was the fault of WotC for making such bad books, like Mysteries of the Moonsea. This is proven because books like Dragons of Faerûn, Power of Faerûn, Lost Empires of Faerûn, Serpent Kingdoms and so many others like those did sell well.
I agree, and that is why they should play Eberron. The Realms should stay the way they are for people like me who loves to read all that Realmslore.
I totally agree!!!
Why ruin the Realms when they can play Eberron...
-As Merrik has pointed out, prices of Forgotten Realms products are higher than similar Eberron products on E-Bay. So, that's two. I can speak from personal experience that the smaller of the two bookstores I go to has, literally, had the same Eberron products on the shelves for about two months now (I actually was reading the back cover of a book, and then put the book back on the shelf, albeit no longer in alphabetical order- it's still like that), whereas the Forgotten Realms products are moved off of the shelf (if not by anyone else, by me). So, that's three sources, as opposed to none.
-What are we arguing about again?
Just that both of our "proof" is not really close to being accurate. WOTCs market research is probably a bit better. I am jsut saying why change something that has done well or great in the past? The only reason is (to me)is that the sales were slipping. I say this because I cannot fathom any other reason to change anything.
If sales of FR were slipping it was the fault of WotC for making such bad books, like Mysteries of the Moonsea. This is proven because books like Dragons of Faerûn, Power of Faerûn, Lost Empires of Faerûn, Serpent Kingdoms and so many others like those did sell well.
Powers, and Dragons came out around the same time as Mysteries though.
Powers, and Dragons came out around the same time as Mysteries though.
And powers and dragons sold better than Mysteries, because it was what people wanted.
For the people who like lore heavy stuff, there's not much there, but for someone who wants springboards to use in his own campaigns, it's chock full of them. I wouldn't use any of the encounters as written, but I don't do that with any pre-fab stuff.
For me, there was just enough there to excite my imagination, without providing an over-abundance of lore to inhibit my own 'twists and turns'.
To each his own, and all of that.
And powers and dragons sold better than Mysteries, because it was what people wanted.
I realize this. I am just looking at all of your posts and the last bit didn't jibe right. I am not even going to og into it right now, because discussing things with certain people here is just like a dog chasing it's own tail. I can see some of your points and understand them but you and others seem to fail to see mine. You cannot even say that it is possible that the reason for the change was lack of sales. It might not be the reason but it is a possibility. Nothing else really makes sense.
Not that I have any idea as to whether WotC has any such notions or not, or even what their sales figures are, as I don't really pay attention to crap like that, but really, Rauric has a point. There's only two reasons to change something so massively. One is financial, the other is ego... I'm partial to the ego issue at work, but the financial one is more likely to be honest.
Gods, I agree with that! I've always been amazed at the number of people - DMs and players alike - that feel they absolutely must have every single FR product and memorize them before they can play. I wish I could meet some of those folks in real life. These are probably the same people who need to see the list of ingredients before ordering from the menu at a restaurant...
I feel blessed than none of the players in my FR games over the past 21 years ever felt that way. Heck, most of them never even read a single FR product or novel that I didn't personally hand to them and ask them to read, and they had no trouble at all having fun. You know why? Because they had something called an "imagination" and could make things up on their own.
There are tons of books for FR, and yes players can disregard them but...If the coolist thing about FR is the tons of established lore then wouldn't it defeat to point?
I think 4E gives players the chance to start learning about the new FR from this new begining, while retaining all the old lore as history to add optional depth.
As for those saying it should stay as it is, it does if you continue playing the 3.5 version. I don't see why the option of a re-imagened D&D and FR existing alongside the 3.5 and older versions is so offensive to some.
As for those saying it should stay as it is, it does if you continue playing the 3.5 version. I don't see why the option of a re-imagened D&D and FR existing alongside the 3.5 and older versions is so offensive to some.
Because it means that the FR we like will no longer be supported.
Because it means that the FR we like will no longer be supported.
If the creative team at WotC doesn't know what there doing or how to please the current FR fans [as meny on this thread have suggested], why would you want them to support it?
It seems there are two paths you can take on this...
1: WotC knows what there doing. In which case you could embrace 4E with confidence.
2: WotC is messing it all up. In which case the FR you choose to continue playing is much better off being supported by the throngs of dedicated fans which seem more then capable of doing so.
I personaly look forward to the new 4E FR, but it seems to me everyone wins.
Mayhaps the Spellplague has struck this mage. *mumbles*
Ooh, have a fireball to the face, mwahahaha. Fireballs are like pies, but hotter.
If the creative team at WotC doesn't know what there doing or how to please the current FR fans [as meny on this thread have suggested], why would you want them to support it?
It seems there are two paths you can take on this...
1: WotC knows what there doing. In which case you could embrace 4E with confidence.
2: WotC is messing it all up. In which case the FR you choose to continue playing is much better off being supported by the throngs of dedicated fans which seem more then capable of doing so.
I personaly look forward to the new 4E FR, but it seems to me everyone wins.
Your naivete is noted.Depends on how you define lack of sales though, and what the expectations were. From what I've seen, a few industries, music in particular, are developing some very unrealistic expectations for what constitutes 'successful' these days. So decent sales to some might be crap to others if they're expecting constant market growth and not comprehending that reality just doesn't support unlimited growth in business.
Not that I have any idea as to whether WotC has any such notions or not, or even what their sales figures are, as I don't really pay attention to crap like that, but really, Rauric has a point. There's only two reasons to change something so massively. One is financial, the other is ego... I'm partial to the ego issue at work, but the financial one is more likely to be honest.
This is all I am saying. Such a change can only mean 3 things, crack is being supplied to WOTC designers, ego, or slipping/poor sales. If FR is the flagship
and has done well enough in the past why change it so much.
Actually the real 3rd reason could be to sell more books about the same regions. See, I am not always pro-WOTC. ;)
;) :P
How is supporting obvious choices the same as being naive?
I would counter that your cynicism is noted.
Kinda serious, kinda not here folks.Plus namecalling is ok if your a regular who has friends here, if not watch your Ps and Qs mister!;)
a) the FR designers can do no wrong, so whatever they're planning is actually so omg-incredible that we can't understand, and thus appreciate it now or
b) the FR designers are so incredibly moronic, bloody-minded or dedicated to the utter destruction of the Realms that they can do no right and we're better off without them.
I'd say A) is certainly wrong, not just because of the inane deific deaths in GHotR. On the other hand, I'd also say b) is wrong as I've enjoyed some of the 3.x supplements myself. I'd say I've enjoyed Champions of Ruin, Dragons of Faerun, and, Lost Empires of Faerun, and, say, Serpent Kingdoms, and these have certainly enriched my knowledge of Faerun. FRCS and Magic of Faerun are quite good as well.
Just because the designers may occasionally do something that is complete crap doesn't mean that we shouldn't be interested in there being continued support for our favourite setting. OTOH, it doesn't mean we are willing to swallow said crap just because they think we should.
@Rauric: I loved some of the changes - heck, I was extatic about the "No more dracorage, dragons are free to really take charge" - but I hate many of the things that are lining up for 4e. You make me look like some kind of freak
@D1Tremere: Well, you present two rather simplified choices:
a) the FR designers can do no wrong, so whatever they're planning is actually so omg-incredible that we can't understand, and thus appreciate it now or
b) the FR designers are so incredibly moronic, bloody-minded or dedicated to the utter destruction of the Realms that they can do no right and we're better off without them.
I'd say A) is certainly wrong, not just because of the inane deific deaths in GHotR. On the other hand, I'd also say b) is wrong as I've enjoyed some of the 3.x supplements myself. I'd say I've enjoyed Champions of Ruin, Dragons of Faerun, and, Lost Empires of Faerun, and, say, Serpent Kingdoms, and these have certainly enriched my knowledge of Faerun. FRCS and Magic of Faerun are quite good as well.
Just because the designers may occasionally do something that is complete crap doesn't mean that we shouldn't be interested in there being continued support for our favourite setting. OTOH, it doesn't mean we are willing to swallow said crap just because they think we should.
@Rauric: I loved some of the changes - heck, I was extatic about the "No more dracorage, dragons are free to really take charge" - but I hate many of the things that are lining up for 4e. You make me look like some kind of freak
I thought my presented choices were more along the lines of
A: Try the new game and see where it takes you.
B: Keep playing older versions.
As those are realy the only two choices, I don't see room for debate [except for debateing the symantecs, as you are].
People here hate any change. They say they want smart change but if Ed himself had done anything they did not like they would rock these boards with their screams.
Plus namecalling is ok if your a regular who has friends here, if not watch your Ps and Qs mister!;)
Not So -
I can think of a long-time member who recently lost his account after only two warnings, and another fairly new member who has received at least ten warnings and is still here.
Its not WHAT you say, but WHO you say it about (and the language used to do so).
I try to agree with everyone at least once a week, and fight with them at least once a month, just to keep everybody on their toes. ;)
I can think of a long-time member who recently lost his account after only two warnings, and another fairly new member who has received at least ten warnings and is still here.
:: Mumbles and grumbles ::
-I think that other poster is gone, too, now, as I haven't seen a post by him in quite a few days, now.
I try to agree with everyone at least once a week, and fight with them at least once a month, just to keep everybody on their toes. ;)
-A good policy. I get along with most everybody, right?
-A good policy. I get along with most everybody, right?
Why?
YOU WANNA FIGHT ABOUT IT?! :fight!:
;) :D
YOU WANNA FIGHT ABOUT IT?! :fight!:
:P
...and another fairly new member who has received at least ten warnings and is still here.
So who're we talking about, here?
If the creative team at WotC doesn't know what there doing or how to please the current FR fans [as meny on this thread have suggested], why would you want them to support it?
That's a great question. Here's my answer:
Even though some people don't trust the FR design team, they usually still trust in Ed Greenwood and other freelancers. The freelancers can only publish what WotC allows them too, so if WotC were to support the "old" Realms, people would see Realms products coming down the pipe by writers and designers that they DO like even if they have no particular trust for WotC.
Not taking sides, here, just trying to answer your question.
Now if Rinon offered us that option....... :D
:P
So who're we talking about, here?
A poster by the name of...
Show
Warning...yes, really, that's his name.
People here hate any change. They say they want smart change but if Ed himself had done anything they did not like they would rock these boards with their screams.
Plus namecalling is ok if your a regular who has friends here, if not watch your Ps and Qs mister!;)
Namecalling is definitely not OK. If you do it, expect consequences. And if you're a "regular" expect harsher consequences, since you should know better.
If anyone sees any namecalling, report it.
A poster by the name of...ShowWarning...yes, really, that's his name.
Now if Rinon offered us that option....... :D
:P
-You're like twice everyone's age, old man. :P
-You're like twice everyone's age, old man. :P
all add uptogether? :P
-You're like twice everyone's age, old man. :P
I'm too old for 'that kind' of interaction, but I could go in for a good hiney whippin' by a young hotty. :P
And besides, you're only as old as you feel, and I act like a 13 year old.
-You're like twice everyone's age, old man. :P
-At least he would die with socks on his feet and a
on his face!!!:P -Especially with the Resident Sune follower!;)
LORD DELTA
And besides, you're only as old as you feel, and I act like a 13 year old.
Well, that's for sure.;)
I need to find a good woman who likes comic books, Star Trek, video games, D&D, painting miniatures, my action figure collection...
I guess I need that woman from the Forty Yeear Old Virgin movie, but she's just ficition - no such perfect woman could ever possibly exist.
Except for maybe teenage Korean girls... but that will just get me into trouble. :P
Except for maybe teenage Korean girls... but that will just get me into trouble. :P
Grow them in your basement.
I need to find a good woman who likes comic books, Star Trek, video games, D&D, painting miniatures, my action figure collection...
Hey, they exist...
My Girl like comic books, Star Trek, video games and we play D&D 2-3 times a month with 3 regular groups... She does not paint miniatures but she makes fantasy art...
Some times i feel she is more geek than me... but then i remember i am a software designer and a GM on 3 D&D groups...
Some times i feel she is more geek than me... but then i remember i am a software designer and a GM on 3 D&D groups...
Join the club :P I'm a .NET soft designer.
And BTW, I was programming back when you guys Dads were just thinking about 'dropping you off at the pool'. ;)
Of course, they don't use any of those langueges any more...
Grow them in your basement.
We can DO THAT?!
Ahhh... I miss those days.
They still use VB, right? Thats not that different from BASIC.
I was still able to use some of my skills a few years ago - I was heavily into making maps for HOMM, and it requiered a lot of Bolean Logic to get all the 'events' working properly.
I showed those 'kiddies' a thing or two. ;)
You know why I didn't go into computers when I got out of High School? Because my Guidance Counciler said to stay away from computers, it was a dead-end field.
That was in 1981.
Did you ever want to go back in time and STAB someone?
Proper? What is this, the 18th Century? You do recall where this is, right LK? :P ;)
-2008. Manners and such still existed, last time I looked out the window (which, admittedly, has been a day or two). Did the Spellplague transform them, too?
-2008. Manners and such still existed, last time I looked out the window (which, admittedly, has been a day or two).
Awww, so you're chivalrous.
;) :P
I'm packing up my gear to leave these boards (I'll be "haunting" Candlekeep, though ;)) until 5E is announced, as we've already decided in my group that 4E and 4E FR are not for us. And, I’ve also spent *far* much time lately posting here, when I should have been DMing. ;) So, now I’m going to “re-launch” my 3E campaigns again. :D
So, no matter which edition of the game you'll be playing this summer, I wish good gaming and sweet adventures until next!
*Asgetrion teleports back to Arabel*
And Chivalry... don't even get me started on that one.
And manners are still alive and well, but around here? C'mon... you've been hitting the devs crack supply again, right? :P
Awww, so you're chivalrous.
In my country we are a rarity :P. And not even I can be defined as true chivarlous. Most here use it as a tool to get ladies (chivalry means money to most teenager girls here).
Don't anybody think leaving the boards until I finnish making the website (after that we can all leave). I need you for the compilation project.
Though I'm thinking you might want to amend that to 'acting upon those thoughts'... ;) :D
@ Everyone:
I'm packing up my gear to leave these boards (I'll be "haunting" Candlekeep, though ;)) until 5E is announced, as we've already decided in my group that 4E and 4E FR are not for us. And, I’ve also spent *far* much time lately posting here, when I should have been DMing. ;) So, now I’m going to “re-launch” my 3E campaigns again. :D
So, no matter which edition of the game you'll be playing this summer, I wish good gaming and sweet adventures until next!
*Asgetrion teleports back to Arabel*
At least you'll still be at Candlekeep...
Sembia is controlled by the Netherese but still hates Cormyr and is still a group of money-changing
? Whoop de
do.I mean, seriously, lots of Thayans died but it's already a magically blasted wasteland that's controlled by a bunch of Demigod Wizards? Well, that's not really going to impact my games all that much.
Baldur's Gate is its own Empire? Again, what's the difference?
Cormyr controls two Sembian cities? Wow, what an accomplishment?
Unther is a definite change but the fact was that the Untherese are ALWAYS controlled by some evil oppressive overlord. That's their whole deal. It's sort of in the Untheric Background that they will always be slaves of someone.
No, the only thing that brasses me off is the fact that we're apparently losing all of our cool heroes and NPCs. We know that Khelban is dead (BIG mistake) and Sylune are both confirmed dead. Otherwise, we've got no real info. It's also presumed that Caladnei and Alusair are both dead as well, which brasses me off.
But so far, still the same old Realms.
And perhaps some of our elven heroes like Elaith (if Cunningham desides to revisit his future story).
I'll miss my own characters though.
104 years of political, intellectual, demographic and divine developements will make the future realms surely different. Depending on the era chosen in history, in real life a century could have profound influence on common people and societies. I trust both Ed and Rich with a strong sense of how these things will logically develop.
No more heroes? We'll still have Drizzt :P
And perhaps some of our elven heroes like Elaith (if Cunningham desides to revisit his future story).
I'll miss my own characters though.
104 years of political, intellectual, demographic and divine developements will make the future realms surely different. Depending on the era chosen in history, in real life a century could have profound influence on common people and societies. I trust both Ed and Rich with a strong sense of how these things will logically develop.
I can't trust them because they (yes including Ed at times) have never showned that logic.
I can't trust them because they (yes including Ed at times) have never showned that logic.
The Realms have been civilized for about twenty thousand years. I'm fine with the idea that there's never going to be any advancements technology or magic or sociology wise.
It's a society of Full Plate Armor, Crossbows, Spells, and Racial/Gender/Sexual Equality.
The Realms have been civilized for about twenty thousand years. I'm fine with the idea that there's never going to be any advancements technology or magic or sociology wise.
-Well, that just depends on your definition of civility :P.
We've built-up this new edition into some kind of baby-eating monster, and now it appears to be nothing more then a rat in the cupboard.
Seriously, when you look at the totality of what they've done, the only campaign-changing thing, for most of us, is the new date!
I don't even need to start a new campaign, and my characters are working for Red Wizards ATM (unbeknowst to them)! Depending on how they roll with Thay, I've already set-up my options (it helps that the characters never learned the truth, since the 'truth' may change now).
The two main campaign areas that 90% of FR players game in are the Heartlands, East and West. How are they all that different? Instead of Orc Hordes pouring out of the mountains every ten years, now they live there full-time? Instead of Sembia being controlled by evil, money-grubbing merchants, now its controlled by evil, money-grubbing wizards?
The fact is, I don't even see how they can call it a new setting at all! I think they generated all the fear and hype on purpose, just to convince the FR-haters it IS different - but its not... not really.
Tymanther? They could have made that change with a novel series and a sourcebook - the Spellplague is a sham! The Plaguelands sound exactly like the old Wild magic Zones, right down to the strange mutated creatures that come out of them! Thay is higher in altitude, and the Wizards have become more reclusive... if anything, that harkens back to the way I envisioned them in 1e, before Thaymart!
Seriously guys, the 'new' setting is a hoax - all they've done is move the Timeline way forward... for no apparent reason.
Well... maybe to kill off all those high-level NPCs the peanut-gallery were crying about.
"Waaahhhh... I can't be the coolest guy on the planet... Waaaahhhh!"
You don't give in to those people - you slap them.
Anyhow, I've decided to use the 4e realms, because its the same as the 3e Realms. The problems with the Pantheon aside, because I can just choose to ignore all of that in my game.
The only caveat is that I will say there is a misprint in the new FRCG - the current year is 1390 FR - the same exact year my campaign is in anyway. The Spellpague didn't last 94 years, it only lasted five... and now its over.
This means I can use the new 4e lore and political climate, and ALL of the old 3e lore and NPCs - pretty much the best of both worlds. I just have to change who is running what - Alusair will be in charge of the Cormyrian Empire now, which fits, since she has a militaristic view of things anyway. I can see her being much more heavy-handed then her father, and with the Shades taking over Sembia, I can see the people and nobles of Cormyr allowing her to take a tighter grip.
Yeah... its all becoming clear to me now...
And all I had to do was 'squish' the Spellplague. ;)
Show
Its second largest section is dedicated to threats, retaining some old foes, putting a new spin on some recognizable adversaries, and adding a few new ones. Szass Tam still stands as Abeir-Toril’s mightiest necromancer; the Zhents still plot in the shadows, hoping to reclaim lost glory; gibberlings still pour from the Underdark, but the Spellplague changed some of them. Along with these, surviving Halruaans ply a mercenary trade from a floating fortress and their few remaining skyships, and warlocks tied to a mysterious primordial entity rule Vaasa. And these aren’t the half of my work. They don’t even touch on the work Ed Greenwood did in describing the threats in his parts of the world.
Old news Zanan: I think what you posted is the WotC announcement made about a week ago...
-Yes, it does look familiar, word for word almost, especially the part about Tam.
Yeah, I agree with Philipps and MT36, these changes don't really make such a big deal, it's just that the death of so many iconic figures and the utter destruction of the Pantheons makes me cringe.
Yeah, I agree with Philipps and MT36, these changes don't really make such a big deal, it's just that the death of so many iconic figures and the utter destruction of the Pantheons makes me cringe.
-That, in and of itself, is a big deal. It however, effects us (players), more than it effects them (the Realms themselves).
Gods dieing? Remember the ToT - and most of us hated that one too. Also, most of the gods from the Netheril set aren't around anymore. 'Dead Gods' is another recurring theme in FR - its the very poor story-telling that I think most of us are having trouble with.
So yeah, for us players, they 'screwed the pooch', but in-setting, its just business as usual. The only thing different about this time out is that Mystra DIDN'T come back..... yet. Some gods have been dead for centuries and then come back, so that, too, is normal for FR.
Yeah, I agree with Philipps and MT36, these changes don't really make such a big deal, it's just that the death of so many iconic figures and the utter destruction of the Pantheons makes me cringe.
Thanks for making me OLDER.
So what does that make me, 72?
Every time I do research for a map, I stumble upon the names of lost Kingdoms - I just found another one yesterday!
-Yeah, happens to me all the time, too- even moreso with names. I'm chronicling the rise and fall of Cormanthyr, right now, for example...
Thanks for making me OLDER.
So what does that make me, 72?
We've built-up this new edition into some kind of baby-eating monster, and now it appears to be nothing more then a rat in the cupboard.
Well...it's nice to see you've come full circle.
:P
I also just don't like the time jump and they are ending certain plotlines.
4th edition FR is just a useless books to the FR games I play in. As I imagine it will to alot of people.
Also with what is happening to Baldur's Gate just makes no sense...It is a city runned by LN mercenaries the Flaming Fist. The world is going to hell in a hand basket. If they would be any place that would have the 'lifeboat' mentality it would be this city....yet the allowed all refugees to just move in. Well with everything going to hell how did the feed these peoples? Build new walls every few years to walled in the overflow? With trade being disrupted etc.?
Sorry I am just not buying any of the changes.
Yup, if you just look at it from a Faerûnians point of view, it's just 'time marches on', and totally fits within the character of the setting. Every time I do research for a map, I stumble upon the names of lost Kingdoms - I just found another one yesterday! These didn't exist thousands of years ago, they existed hundreds of years ago. Many kingdoms rise and fall within the same century!
Gods dieing? Remember the ToT - and most of us hated that one too. Also, most of the gods from the Netheril set aren't around anymore. 'Dead Gods' is another recurring theme in FR - its the very poor story-telling that I think most of us are having trouble with.
So yeah, for us players, they 'screwed the pooch', but in-setting, its just business as usual. The only thing different about this time out is that Mystra DIDN'T come back..... yet. Some gods have been dead for centuries and then come back, so that, too, is normal for FR.
Thanks for making me OLDER.
So what does that make me, 72?
Yeah, I have never overreacted to changes in the Realms too much, it's just that I feel that they are "different" now in way I don't like. Which is why I still most likely will be abandoning Realms gaming.
Well with everything going to hell how did the feed these peoples?
-And people used to complain about how Waterdeep fed her residents...Wait 'till they get a load of this.
Well...it's nice to see you've come full circle.
:P
I'm a realistist.
unfortunately, I believed all of WotC's own negative hype. They wanted people to think the setting is "New & Improved", which it clearly isn't.
However, I never said I liked the changes - with the exception (perhaps) of the silly Dragonborn Kingdom, everything they did was DESTRUCTIVE, not CREATIVE.
They added nothing new, and instead just puled a "HULK SMASH!" on the setting, IMHO
But we shall see - The FRCG may yet have an interesting story or two to tell - Ed hasn't failed me yet. ;)
I still hate the mass slaughter or reduction in status to the gods.
10 out of 120 killed isn't a mass slaughter. I'm not happy with the ones that were killed, or the demotion of many to Demigod status, but labelling the killing of the gods as a mass slaughter is an overexaggeration.
10 out of 120 killed isn't a mass slaughter. I'm not happy with the ones that were killed, or the demotion of many to Demigod status, but labelling the killing of the gods as a mass slaughter is an overexaggeration.
Combining the dead gods, the reduced gods, and the retconned gods, that would be at very least a good 3/4 of the gods.
10 out of 120 killed isn't a mass slaughter. I'm not happy with the ones that were killed, or the demotion of many to Demigod status, but labelling the killing of the gods as a mass slaughter is an overexaggeration.
First it is ten so far with more coming as Baker has promised.
Second with all the retconned gods and demotions it is in my opinion a mass slaughter.
Third how many constitues a mass slaughter? I am curious I didn't know there was a official number here. Though in D&D spells mass can indicate up to 4 people...so in D&D terms this is a mass slaughter at ten gods.
First it is ten so far with more coming as Baker has promised.
Has he said so? I haven't seen anything about that.
Second with all the retconned gods and demotions it is in my opinion a mass slaughter.
Getting demoted isn't the same as being killed off.
Third how many constitues a mass slaughter? I am curious I didn't know there was a official number here. Though in D&D spells mass can indicate up to 4 people...so in D&D terms this is a mass slaughter at ten gods.
Slaughter - The killing of a large number of people. 10-out-of-120 is not a large number of people.
Getting demoted isn't the same as being killed off.
.
Well, if not killed, they've been reduced to a state where they literally are no better than an advanced solar.
100 Angels and 100 Gods are very different things;) . At this rate, parties of "uber pwners" will kill them all.
Just saying'....... :P
Third how many constitues a mass slaughter? I am curious I didn't know there was a official number here.
-There's the rub concerning genocide...
We're posting on these message boards according to the rules of the English language, not the rules of D&D. :P
Which one?
American, British, Canadian, South-African, Australian, etc... ?
I need to know these things before I continue. :P
We're posting on these message boards according to the rules of the English language, not the rules of D&D. :P
Which I last recall was a D&D message board, not English class
Which one?
American, British, Canadian, South-African, Australian, etc... ?
I need to know these things before I continue. :P
I'm pretty sure the definition of "slaughter" remains the same for all of those. :P
Which I last recall was a D&D message board, not English class
Yeah, it's a D&D message board. Doesn't mean there's any need for hyperbole, though. Let me put it another way. There's plenty of things to complain about. Is it really necessary to exaggerate the complaints?
Now where's Mr. Misc? He should be along any moment to remind us that baiting is against the ToC. :P
Okay... I'm growing bored with word-play, lets talk about something we all love and adore -
Those cute and cuddley Dragonborn...
What book was the original 3e version of them in?
Okay... I'm growing bored with word-play, lets talk about something we all love and adore -
Those cute and cuddley Dragonborn...
What book was the original 3e version of them in?
Would it shock you if I told you the answer was Races of the Dragon? :P I'm not 100% sure about them first appearing in there, but they are in there.
Those cute and cuddley Dragonborn...
What book was the original 3e version of them in?
The first appearance was in Races of the Dragon. With a ritual anyone could be reborn as a dragonborn of Bahamut. They are sterile though.
Yeah, it's a D&D message board. Doesn't mean there's any need for hyperbole, though. Let me put it another way. There's plenty of things to complain about. Is it really necessary to exaggerate the complaints?
I think Mr. M already covers that pretty well...:P
Yeah, I don't mind dragonborn (though it still stinks of ripping off dragonlance now that WoTC has regained control over it). Whether or not I will like them in FR depends on how Tyrmather is detailed and worked into the existing lore (Hopefully Ed does it).
The slave-labor camps angle might have been fun to explore; could've done a whole campaign arc just with that.
So many opportunities lost...
I haven't decided if I will use them yet. I already have an alternate scenario worked out for them, in case someone wants to run one, but I have to first see if I like what they did, or if I still prefer 'occupied Unther'.
The slave-labor camps angle might have been fun to explore; could've done a whole campaign arc just with that.
-Well, suffice to say, Dragonborn running slave-labor camps would put a whole new spin on...
...Draconian tyrants!
Then again, if any designer happens by, I'd like to have the whisper gnomes too. And war trolls! I like these sooo much! :D
It could be worse, they could have written it so your hero could have decided to make a deal with the devil, who wanted, of all things, the dissolution of your marriage, so your Aunt could live.
-Nah, no one is that crazy...
I like the Dragonborn, too. I'm definitely looking forward to trying them out.
Me too!
I just REALLY, REALLY hope that the Aasimar/Celestials are the mystery race in the Player's Guide. They've been a favorite of mine ever since they appeared in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium II. It ticks me off that Tieflings made it into the PHB but not the Aasimar/Celestials.
I have to admit, I'm excited about creating a tiefling hero that I have floating around in my head.:D
I have to admit, I'm excited about creating a tiefling hero that I have floating around in my head.:D
I don't mind the Tieflings being core. I just hope the Aasimar make an appearance sooner rather then later.
As for the Tieflings, well, have I mentioned this crazy idea I had about writing up Venger in 4E as a Tiefling Warlock?
I don't mind the Tieflings being core. I just hope the Aasimar make an appearance sooner rather then later.
I'm pretty sure they will, going by what was said in Races and Classes.
Basically, the designers just weren't sure of what to do with them yet--they wanted to make sure Aasimar came off as being mighty and amazing, not just as pale, stoic "goodly" creatures (the guy who wrote the article mentioned what he called the "Ave Maria" problem; that is, good often doesn't seem as interesting as evil).As for the Tieflings, well, have I mentioned this crazy idea I had about writing up Venger in 4E as a Tiefling Warlock?
That might work!
I'm pretty sure they will, going by what was said in Races and Classes.
That and there was also the issue with their name. Thank God they're changing it! Although I liked it at first, the shine pretty much wore off once I was introduced to the internet, and so how horribly it was misspelled on online forums like this, and almost always in the same way. Hell, it's even been misspelled in a similar way in actual published works! Just check out Player's Guide to Faerun, page 29. All the way at the bottom left.
So thankfully they're being called Celestials, now. That might work!
Glad you think so!
I don't know what it is, but I got a strange fascination with some of the characters from the old D&D cartoon show as well as the toy line. I think one of the first things I do when I get 4E is start converting some of them into 4E rules. Venger as a Tiefling Warlock. Warduke as a Human Fighter, with maybe some Warlord Training. Strongheart and Grimsword as Paladins, etc.That and there was also the issue with their name. Thank God they're changing it! Although I liked it at first, the shine pretty much wore off once I was introduced to the internet, and so how horribly it was misspelled on online forums like this, and almost always in the same way. Hell, it's even been misspelled in a similar way in actual published works! Just check out Player's Guide to Faerun, page 29. All the way at the bottom left.
Me too.
Glad you think so!
Hey, I like watching old cartoons for fun sometimes, I don't think your fascination is strange at all.
Hey, I like watching old cartoons for fun sometimes, I don't think your fascination is strange at all.
Ah, a woman of both culture and sophistication. :D
I've actually got a few DVD sets of old cartoons that I loved as a kid. Mostly Transformers and the D&D cartoon. I'm hoping to get GI Joe, He-Man, and Inhumanoids someday, along with a couple others.
Ah, a woman of both culture and sophistication. :D
:embarrass
I've actually got a few DVD sets of old cartoons that I loved as a kid. Mostly Transformers and the D&D cartoon. I'm hoping to get GI Joe, He-Man, and Inhumanoids someday, along with a couple others.
Ah yes, I'm especially fond of Transformers and He-Man.:D
Ah yes, I'm especially fond of Transformers and He-Man.:D
... will you marry me?
... will you marry me?
...I also like King Arthur & the Knights of Justice. The link in my signature leads to a video that makes fun of it.
Incidentally, on the subject of Transformers, I suggest checking out THIS video and THIS video. Trust me, you're gonna die laughing. :D
You know, it's always struck me as odd that WotC has NEVER put out a Transformers RPG. Hasbro owns Transformers. Hasbro owns WotC. Ergo...
maybe all the Assimars died fighting the Syphillis Empire. ;)
It could be worse, they could have written it so your hero could have decided to make a deal with the devil, who wanted, of all things, the dissolution of your marriage, so your Aunt could live.
In 5e, Mephisto pwns Asmodeus and takes his stuff. :P
Yeah, I was looking at that, now.
Incidentally, on the subject of Transformers, I suggest checking out THIS video and THIS video. Trust me, you're gonna die laughing. :D
Oh yeah, those ARE funny!
You know, it's always struck me as odd that WotC has NEVER put out a Transformers RPG. Hasbro owns Transformers. Hasbro owns WotC. Ergo...
Hmm, good point...
Although, I think a MtG D20 book would be excellent.
And yeah, I'd KILL for a Transformers RPG. Something which I've been wanting for years, actually. The closest anyone's ever come to doing something like that is Mechamorphosis, a D20 game made by Horizon (I actually named the leader of the heroic Exiles, Aegis, which netted me a free autographed copy of the book :D ).
A miniatures game would also be amazing, so long as it was in scale with DDM and SWM. It would be SO kickass if they made such a game, and the rules were compatible with the Star Wars Miniature game and D&D Miniatures. How awesome would it be to play a miniature game with the Autobots duking it out with the Empire? ;)
THIS is the only Giant Robot for me. ;)
Although I have used the Wampa mini against my players...
I love D&D, and I love Star Wars - but I wouldn't mix them.
Fortunately for me, I don't need the "MarkusTay63 Stamp of Approval" on the kind of fun I'm allowed to have. :P Yeah, that's right. I use D&D Miniatures in fights against Star Wars Miniatures. Warhammer Fantasy monsters in D&D games. It's MADNESS, I tell you! MAAADDDNNNEEESSSSSS!!!
But I wouldn't mix Warhammer FB with 40K, though...
Thats why you'll never catch me playing Chaos. ;)
Also, I'm still trying to figure out where I was telling YOU what to do.
Ah yes, I'm especially fond of Transformers and He-Man.:D
-What about She-Ra?;)
LORD DELTA:D
One of the main villains was Shadow Weaver - I kid you not...
Shes a master of umbral energy, something the Evil Horde likes to use.
Does all of this sound familiar? Do you think Rich Baker was a She-ra fan?
You may know him from his excellent work on the Spider Man comics recently, before Quesada wrote "One More Day."
or, from Babylon 5, the best Sci Fi series ever to hit TV.
I also like King Arthur & the Knights of Justice. The link in my signature leads to a video that makes fun of it.
-Oh, shoot. I loved that cartoon when I was a kid. I completely forgot about it, and I couldn't remember what it was called. Now I do. Thanks!
They've also never put out a Pokémon RPG, so lets not give them any ideas...
-Surprisingly, I think Pokemon would be a very good miniatures game. Think about it. There'd be plenty of different miniatures to collect. There'd be different environments that give different pokemon different advantages and disadvantages. There'd be cards that say what pokemon can do what...
I love D&D, and I love Star Wars - but I wouldn't mix them.
-What do you call Spelljammer? ;)
-Surprisingly, I think Pokemon would be a very good miniatures game. Think about it. There'd be plenty of different miniatures to collect. There'd be different environments that give different pokemon different advantages and disadvantages. There'd be cards that say what pokemon can do what...
There is a Pokemon collectable minis game. It is a spinning base which you spin to determine outcome. It soesn't look half bad for kids.
There is a Pokemon collectable minis game. It is a spinning base which you spin to determine outcome. It soesn't look half bad for kids.
-Alright, so flesh that out a little bit, and incorporate more 'D&D Miniatures' elements, and, boom, there you go.
-What about She-Ra?;)
LORD DELTA:D
I like her too, but there weren't as many episodes.
He-Man is more well-known.-Oh, shoot. I loved that cartoon when I was a kid. I completely forgot about it, and I couldn't remember what it was called. Now I do. Thanks!
You're welcome.:D
He-Man is more well-known.
-Nah...you just like Blond Haired, Blue Eyed Dudes with BIG BULGING MUSCLES that carry a BIG SWORD dont you? ;) :P :D
DIRTY:D
-Nah...you just like Blond Haired, Blue Eyed Dudes with BIG BULGING MUSCLES that carry a BIG SWORD dont you? ;) :P :D
DIRTY:D
I like him, yes.
But I'm also fond of his teammates. And yes, the villains.Heh, I used to watch She-Ra when I was a kid, but I felt hugely embarassed by it cause I was watching "a girl's show", so whenever I watched it I always had the volume down really low with my finger poised on the control ready to switch channels at a moments notice.
Who were you hiding from?
Who were you hiding from?
I don't know. All I know is I was afraid of someone walking by and saying "HE'S WATCHING A GIRLS SHOW!!!" All I could picture was family members pointing and laughing while I vainly tried to explain that She-Ra is He-Man's sister, and therefore watching She-Ra, Princess of Power wasn't at all comparable to watching Strawberry Shortcake or My Little Pony.
Heh, I used to watch She-Ra when I was a kid, but I felt hugely embarassed by it cause I was watching "a girl's show", so whenever I watched it I always had the volume down really low with my finger poised on the control ready to switch channels at a moments notice. The only reason I watched it, though, was because He-Man would occasionally guest star. So unless He-Man suddenly popped out of nowhere, I didn't pay a whole lot of attention.
-OK...so you like Blond Haired, Blue Eyed Dudes with BIG BULGING MUSCLES that carry a BIG SWORD dont you? ;) :P :D
DIRTY:D
I like him, yes.
-Ok...so you like Dudes with BIG BULGING MUSCLES that carry BIG Weapons then dont you? ;) :P :D
DIRTY:D
-OK...so you like Blond Haired, Blue Eyed Dudes with BIG BULGING MUSCLES that carry a BIG SWORD dont you? ;) :P :D
DIRTY:D
...and I just walked right into that.
...and I just walked right into that.
DIRTY DELTA:D
Plus, you know, looking back on it, for a kid in those days...She Ra was pretty hot.
Who cares if she's so disgustingly lawful good that she makes most paladins twitch in a corner?
The problem was, really, if you look at the dialogue, it really looked like the horse was getting all the action.
No brainer really:D
-Ok...so you like Dudes with BIG BULGING MUSCLES that carry BIG Weapons then dont you? ;) :P :D
DIRTY:D
I'm partial to them, hell yes!
Who cares if she's so disgustingly lawful good that she makes most paladins twitch in a corner?
That's a good thing--I like LG.:D
I didn't watch the show much, but I remember a weird Christmas special where Skeletor sided with He-man and She-ra to save some Children from the other bad guy.
from Babylon 5, the best Sci Fi series ever to hit TV.
I watched the pilot episode, and never watched another episode after that. Once they stole Checov, it became personal. :headexplo
If I had to go non-classic (ST & SW), I would have to say Farscape, although I understand that Firefly was pretty damn good as well (I've only caught two episodes, unfortunetly).
-What do you call Spelljammer? ;)
A Mess?
I'm partial to them, hell yes!
-OH...I like it when you talk DIRTY Girl!!!
:bounce: LDD:D
Actually, Hordak was a more interesting villain than Skeletor. Plus, he had a cool quality that many villains just don't have. He HATED Enchanted Forests. It wasn't so much She-Ra that he despised, he just hated that forested glade.
I barely remember anything about Hordak, save that he was some kind of weird cyborg. I loved Hordak in the He-Man cartoon that came out a couple years ago, though. To bad the show got cancelled. One more season and Hordak would've become the main villain of the show. Here's Hordak from the cartoon that came out a couple years ago.
Plus, you know, looking back on it, for a kid in those days...She Ra was pretty hot.
"Why msatran, whatever do you mean?" ;)
Jeeez....
-Just roll with it!!!:D
LORD DELTA;)
And BTW The name of the thread is:Thank you for destroying the Realms..... ;)
This is just like the Iron Age of Comics, where writers didn't understand superheroes anymore.
Richard Baker and Chris Perkons don't understand what the Realms means to people anymore.
When Mr. Baker was confronyed with the god killings he said: "even though he DOES NOT agree w the fact that they are too many gods the fact remain that many people (as in the people that WOtC are trying to reach) had that stupid idea stuck in their heads and thus the god killing...
I'm not defending Mr. Baker cuz I don't know the guy, we have to understand that there's stuff "back doors" that we don't know about....
Hmm, I woudn't exactly like a Pokemon RPG game, but a Pokemon First-Player shooter...
Hmm, I woudn't exactly like a Pokemon RPG game, but a Pokemon First-Player shooter...
-You are the second person I've said this to today, coincidentally: Admit it. Deep down, you know you still like Pokemon. Embrace it, and with it, embrace inner harmony.
-You are the second person I've said this to today, coincidentally: Admit it. Deep down, you know you still like Pokemon. Embrace it, and with it, embrace inner harmony.
"bang, bang, screams....pika?"
Ahh, harmony restored
"bang, bang, screams....pika?"
Ahh, harmony restored
-You're not fooling anyone.
-You're not fooling anyone.
:coolcthul
"Cmon Charizard, destroy that worm with your FLAMETHROWER!!!"
I love D&D, and I love Star Wars - but I wouldn't mix them.
Much like food, don't mix sausages and vanilla sauce. It's a bad idea. Tested it on my players, one threw up.
When in doubt, get a PC to try it for you.
:coolcthul
"Cmon Charizard, destroy that worm with your FLAMETHROWER!!!"
-See, I knew it. Don't you feel better, now?
Richard Baker and Chris Perkons don't understand what the Realms means to people anymore.
Actually, this is more like the Clone Saga. They're going to kill Doctor Octopus and replace him with Kaine. Also, they're going to kill Aunt May. Then they're going to replace Peter Parker with a younger and hipper Ben Reilly.
It may work, it may not.
It depends how New Realms looks.
Actually, this is more like the Clone Saga. They're going to kill Doctor Octopus and replace him with Kaine. Also, they're going to kill Aunt May. Then they're going to replace Peter Parker with a younger and hipper Ben Reilly.
It may work, it may not.
It depends how New Realms looks.
-Hey, don't diss the Clone Saga.
Life of Reilly
-Thank you, everyone, for destroying the Realms, and this thread!
-Why you are so...welcome Mr. Sir!!!
:D DELTA:D
Hmm, I woudn't exactly like a Pokemon RPG game, but a Pokemon First-Player shooter...
Knock yourself out. ;)
Anything I could say has already been said by the Creators.
Life of Reilly
-A cool article.
My newest problem with the latest news:
In most settings, usually theres is some 'consumate evil' off in some corner somewhere, or central to the campaign. This 'great evil' is normally monolithic in nature - like Iuz from the old Greyhawk Campaign. Now, FR has been one of the few exceptions - rather then one monolithic 'evil thing', we had a bunch of very evil things - the Zhents, Thay, the Underdark, the pervasive slave trade, Larloch and Warlock's Crypt, and hundreds of 'lesser evils', like the Iron Throne, Luskan, Thieves & Assassins Guilds, The Rundeen, etc, etc...
We had no 'Dark Lord' type that was threatening to overwhelm all, and thats what was part of what made the Realms special. Evil was right around the corner, everywhere you looked, but it was NEVER monolithic...
Enter the Shades and the Empire of Netheril. As if its not bad enough that they've reappeared out of nowhere from thousands of years in the past, but in 4e they will have swallowed up another major player in FR and become an Empire. That in itself isn't so bad, but we still have Thay and the Zhents as well!
Now, most of you know that my 'thing' is to map stuff out, and taking a look at the new borders makes me really wonder just what the hell the designers are thinking here...
By the end of 3e, Zhentil Keep has pretty much taken contol of most of the Moonsea region, with very little opposition left in the area. They have also just conquered parts of the Dales very recently. At this rate, they will become an evil Northern Empire unto themselves in another century - just in time for 4e.
So we got Cormyr and Cormanthor seperated by a thin line of 'evil' connecting Anauroch to Sembia, and then above that monolithic Evil is yet another monolithic evil?!
I'm just not seeing how all of this is going to pan out - especially considering between them and Thay are Vaasa and Damara, which appear to have gone down the tubes as well. It would make sense if the bad guys were all against each other as well, but they've already said that this is not the case in 4e (which is probably the #1 retarded decision of all time).
It just seems like there is evil piled on top pof evil at this point. I have always enjoyed adventuring and DMing in the eastern Heartlands, but they're not looking very attractive to me in 4e. I may be switching to the western Heartlands for all my gaming, because over there it appears that too much 'good' has sprung up (the new Orc Kingdom and the new City of Hope), without any of the existing west being touched much. Add to that that Luskan appears to be gone, and we have a whole 'good to the west' and 'evil to the east' scenario in the making, with poor Cormyr wedged in the middle.
I liked it better when the setting had good and evil all over the place, mixed together - it was far more realistic that way. It may still look like the Realms in 4e, but it sure doesn't feel like it.
For a company that says they are trying to stay away from symmetry, they sure seem to be adding in a lot of it. The old setting looked more like their goals then the 4e one does.
I was trying to figure out which of the twenty 4e FR threads currently running this should go in, and I figure this was appropriate and needed a little pulling back on track.
-Choose one that has nothing to do with 4e, because the boards are beginning to stagnate.
I just wanted to make the point that it almost looks like an East vs. West scenario in the making, which is pretty damn bland to me.
Are you saying I should of posted this in a non-4e thread, pulling yet another one off-track?
-Nevermind, I misunderstood what you wrote. I read that as 'I was trying to figure out which of the twenty 4e FR threads currently running I should post in'. Disregard.
I was a little confused, because I agree we need to move away from all this 4e hate and start getting back to the lore, which is what we are all here for.
Its just that I've been back to the maps again, and looking at them got me thinking about this point. It appears to be very "them" and "us" in 4e, with little in the way of shades of grey.
I was a little confused, because I agree we need to move away from all this 4e hate and start geting back to the lore, which is what we are all here for.
-Yeah, that's basically what I was saying. I say that a lot.
Its just that I've been back to the maps again, and looking at them got me thinking about this point. It appears to be very "them" and "us" in 4e, with little in the way of shades of grey.
-Which is why I don't visit the Forgotten Realms 4e Boards anymore, with the exception of the few threads that I am already subscribed to.
I try to avoid moving very far away from here... Gleemax makes me want to vomit.
There's a FR 4e board?
-Yes, here. There's a 4e area for every officially supported setting. Mostly the same cast of characters and arguments there (check out the threads, and see what I mean).
-Yes, here. There's a 4e area for every officially supported setting. Mostly the same cast of characters and arguments there (check out the threads, and see what I mean).
-We probably wont see him for a couple of days...Or it will scare the cr@p outa him and he will come running home with a quickness.;) :P :D
18DELTA:fight!:
-Yes, here. There's a 4e area for every officially supported setting. Mostly the same cast of characters and arguments there (check out the threads, and see what I mean).
Indeed! I'm a character there--every now and then.;)
I kind of agree that evil seems like it's being built up to be monolithic in the Realms--or at least, more monolithic than it was before. I'm wondering (with, admittedly, some cynicism) if the Empire of Netheril is going to be the be-all end-all bad guy for 4E FR.
I kind of agree that evil seems like it's being built up to be monolithic in the Realms--or at least, more monolithic than it was before. I'm wondering (with, admittedly, some cynicism) if the Empire of Netheril is going to be the be-all end-all bad guy for 4E FR.
-Possibly. Shade's original intentions was to simply reclaim the lands that were once Netheril. So, places like Calimshan need not worry. However, now that the Empire of Netheril has mostly succeeded, are they going to want further conquest and expansion? If so, then I'd say yes, they are going to be the be-all, end-all bad guy for the "new" Realms. If they don't, however, then I don't think so.
-Possibly. Shade's original intentions was to simply reclaim the lands that were once Netheril. So, places like Calimshan need not worry. However, now that the Empire of Netheril has mostly succeeded, are they going to want further conquest and expansion? If so, then I'd say yes, they are going to be the be-all, end-all bad guy for the "new" Realms. If they don't, however, then I don't think so.
That's more or less what I was thinking--I wouldn't expect an empire like that to ever truly be "satisfied" ("Okay, now we have all the lands that were once Netheril...we're doing so well, why not conquer a few more places while we're at it?").
They could go from rebuilding Netheril to making a bigger, better Netheril than before.
They could go from rebuilding Netheril to making a bigger, better Netheril than before.
-As *I never gave them the 'okay', they are just a bunch of posers.
-As *I never gave them the 'okay', they are just a bunch of posers.
Of course they are, dear, but we all have to live with that. There, there.
Anyway, they should have kept Thay and Haluraa around, as well as all the epic level spellcasters. Now really there is nobody of significant power to keep Netheril in check.
Anyway, they shouldd have kept Thay
Thay's still around.
Thay's still around.
As a pile of rubble...
As a pile of rubble...
Thay's had 80+ years to rebuild. I'd say that's enough time to get back on their feet.
Anyway, here're three posts by Rich Baker where he mentions a trilogy of novels about Thay.
Post 1
Post 2
Post 3
Thay's had 80+ years to rebuild. I'd say that's enough time to get back on their feet.
Anyway, here're three posts by Rich Baker where he mentions a trilogy of novels about Thay.
Post 1
Post 2
Post 3
Psst...
The last two links are identical...
It's probably going to just be Szass Tam the lich king and his undead cronies, plus a few enslaved wizards and minor rabble. Overall, it seems truely pathetic.
A small suggestion. If you're going to complain about something, then complain about something which you actually know is going to happen. Don't make up a scenario and then complain about your made-up scenario. That is truly pathetic.
Psst...
The last two links are identical...
D'OH!
Fixed now.
A small suggestion. If you're going to complain about something, then complain about something which you actually know is going to happen. Don't make up a scenario and then complain about your made-up scenario. That is truly pathetic.
Good point, and I am probably just overreacting. But still, things do look grim for Thay, they even indicated it in The Orc King. Judging from the evens of Unclean, and WoTC's recent ripping off of Warcraft ideas, I don't think my theory is too farfetched.
Of course they are, dear, but we all have to live with that. There, there.
-Meh...
Thay's had 80+ years to rebuild. I'd say that's enough time to get back on their feet.
-A more than reasonable amount of time to adapt to their new situation. After all, it seems that Halruaans did.
Judging from the evens of Unclean, and WoTC's recent ripping off of Warcraft ideas, I don't think my theory is too farfetched.
Just out of curiosity, what is it in Unclean that makes you think of Warcraft? Is that the "Lich King" idea?
Just out of curiosity, what is it in Unclean that makes you think of Warcraft? Is that the "Lich King" idea?
"And we have a winner.";)
Isn't that just awesome and COOL?!
And if Manshoon becomes a Lich (like I suggested in jest) or that Vampire-version of him kills him (yes, and takes his stuff), then we can have three Mordors!!!
That makes FR three times as cool as Tolkien, right?
Then all we need is for Elminster to go nuts and start churning out Uruk-Hai out of his Twisted Tower...
The idea of multiple paragons of evil jockeying for supremacy actually appeals to me.
-That's how it should be. In the most troubling period in modern history, World War II, there were (generally speaking, from an American point of view) three 'evils jockeying for supremacy'- Nazi Germany (Hitler), Fascist Italy (Mussolini) and Imperial Japan (Hirohito).
-That's how it should be. In the most troubling period in modern history, World War II, there were (generally speaking, from an American point of view) three 'evils jockeying for supremacy'- Nazi Germany (Hitler), Fascist Italy (Mussolini) and Imperial Japan (Hirohito).
Except the evils were all allied against the Allied Powers. So it was still clearly a two-sided good vs evil conflict (and Facist Italy was little more than a Nazi tag-along anyway. 1 British soldier was worth 13 Italians said Adolf Eichmann;) ).
"And we have a winner.";)
OK.
But remember that the idea of a "lich king" is pretty common in the fantasy genre. I knew about lich kings in the FR long before I ever heard of "lich kings" being in Warcraft.OK.
As in a lich king actually being a force on the political map.
Welcome to Thay: 1479... ;) :P
As in a lich king actually being a force on the political map.
There have been tons of lich kings in Faerun's past, even if there aren't many in the current Faerun who are a "force on the political map" (depending on how you define that). One could say Szass Tam was already the de facto ruler of Thay.
Except the evils were all allied against the Allied Powers. So it was still clearly a two-sided good vs evil conflict (and Facist Italy was little more than a Nazi tag-along anyway. 1 British soldier was worth 13 Italians said Adolf Eichmann;) ).
-Eh...Yes and no. Had the Allied forces lost, there is no doubt in my mind that the Axis Powers would have gone after each other. Hitler's version of an ****-ruled world, Mussolini's version, and Hirohito's version weren't compatable. Oh, let's not forget Franco, though, he was very much of a non-player.
-In Faerûn, there's been plenty 'Witch Kings', 'Shadow Kings', and 'Lich Kings'. They're a dime a dozen.
True, but they've all been controlling the underground and never a true political threat at face value.
True, but they've all been controlling the underground and never a true political threat at face value.
-Mmm...The Witch King Zhengi controlled large swaths of Damara. The Shadow King, I believe, controled large swaths of land the original Talfiric people inhabited.
-Mmm...The Witch King Zhengi controlled large swaths of Damara. The Shadow King, I believe, controled large swaths of land the original Talfiric people inhabited.
And yet neither of them ruled vast kingdoms of undead, while Unclean indicated that Szass just may be headed in that direction (which I fear).
Oh, and you forgot the Dodkong.;)
And yet neither of them ruled vast kingdoms of undead, while Unclean indicated that Szass just may be headed in that direction (which I fear).
-Undead were present, sure, but I don't think their numbers were so inflated, no. But, they were blatent political and literal threats to other nations/states.
Oh, and you forgot the Dodkong.;)
-The Dodking isn't a 'Witch', 'Shadow', or 'Lich' King, though. He's a 'Dod' King. What is a 'Dod', anyway? Makes you wonder...
-Undead were present, sure, but I don't think their numbers were so inflated, no. But, they were blatent political and literal threats to other nations/states.
-The Dodking isn't a 'Witch', 'Shadow', or 'Lich' King, though. He's a 'Dod' King. What is a 'Dod', anyway? Makes you wonder...
Last I recall, the Dodkong was a form of stone giant lich.
Since the vast majority of Faerun's history has never even been detailed, one can't really say "never" in this case (or many others).
Actually, I think Zhengyi did rule over tons of undead.
Since the vast majority of Faerun's history has never even been detailed, one can't really say "never" in this case (or many others).
Ahh, true, very true. But Zhengyi ruled over mostly monstrous races, and never with the blatant power of the Lich King in warcraft.
Last I recall, the Dodkong was a form of stone giant lich.
-Yes...I was just wondering what a 'Dod' was.
I think 'Dod' is stone giant for 'Dead'.
-Yes...I was just wondering what a 'Dod' was.
respell it and it says "odd"
I think the Lich King of Warcraft is a definate Sauron want to be, as was Zhengyi, most likely.
.
The Lich King in some ways in in the same position Sauron was in in Middle Earth. Warcraft lore does say that the Lich King Arthas is the most powerful being ever to walk on Azeroth, making him stronger than Kil-Jaden, Archimonde, and Cenarius, who are all at least demigod power.
respell it and it says "odd"
-That it does.
The Lich King in some ways in in the same position Sauron was in in Middle Earth. Warcraft lore does say that the Lich King Arthas is the most powerful being ever to walk on Azeroth, making him stronger than Kil-Jaden, Archimonde, and Cenarius, who are all at least demigod power.
Plus, when you look at him in that link I provided, it screams 'Sauron'. ;)
Plus, when you look at him in that link I provided, it screams 'Sauron'. ;)
-He looks cooler than Sauron, actually.
Yes, if there's one thing WoW excels at, its eye-candy. ;)
-I've never played it, but you're right, mostly.
Not that you have to - you can go anywhere and do just about anything ('Kiting' was particularly fun, but I hear they nerfed that). After awhile, you find yourself doing 'dancing Firbolg parties' in the town square, and asking yourself "why?"
Thats why it HAS TO be so damn pretty - you never get tired of looking at the vistas. Sometimes I would climb the tallest mountain, just so I can look down at the landscape - it was gorgeous.
But even that grows old...
After awhile, you find yourself doing 'dancing Firbolg parties' in the town square, and asking yourself "why?"
-Why not? Those Firbolg sure know how to party.
Thats why it HAS TO be so damn pretty - you never get tired of looking at the vistas. Sometimes I would climb the tallest mountain, just so I can look down at the landscape - it was gorgeous.
-That's one thing that I like about 4e. From what I've seen, the Core 4e artwork, and the 4e Forgotten Realms artwork seems very nice.
Also, Dancing really is a BIG part of WoW, I'm not kidding, just check out these moves.
I think the Orc has the best moves... too bad I couldn't find the Firbolgs, or any undead pirates.
Also, while looking for that, I found THIS, check it out if you want a really good laugh.
And yeah, all of those are real 'emotes' you can use IG. :D
Also, while looking for that, I found THIS, check it out if you want a really good laugh.
In related news, that has nothing to do with the actual topic, my girlfriend and I are going to see Avenue Q on Valentine's Day. Before I get it for not being romantic, it's what SHE wanted.
I think the Orc has the best moves... too bad I couldn't find the Firbolgs, or any undead pirates.
Transform your hero's look with new character-customization options, including new hairstyles and dances.
From the Wrath of the Lich King page
Yeah, art is a big part of enjoying a setting -- it really brings it to life.
Also, Dancing really is a BIG part of WoW, I'm not kidding, just check out these moves.
I think the Orc has the best moves... too bad I couldn't find the Firbolgs, or any undead pirates.
Also, while looking for that, I found THIS, check it out if you want a really good laugh.
And yeah, all of those are real 'emotes' you can use IG. :D
Ahh, good old Avenue Q.
Oh, check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0oQ9YSnir0
Lol, look at that elf.
In related news, that has nothing to do with the actual topic, my girlfriend and I are going to see Avenue Q on Valentine's Day. Before I get it for not being romantic, it's what SHE wanted.
-Have fun.
Oh, check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0oQ9YSnir0
Lol, look at that elf.
I saw a dancing Furbolg!!!
Nice. :D
-That's one thing that I like about 4e. From what I've seen, the Core 4e artwork, and the 4e Forgotten Realms artwork seems very nice.
Indeed, I love much of the artwork in the two preview books.
Also, Dancing really is a BIG part of WoW, I'm not kidding, just check out these moves.
Love it! Love it! Love it! I especially enjoyed the animated pelvic thrusts.
Just out of curiosity, though, WHY is dancing so big in that game?
Also, while looking for that, I found THIS, check it out if you want a really good laugh.
That song is from Avenue Q, a send-up of Sesame Street on Broadway.
I saw that show.:D
In related news, that has nothing to do with the actual topic, my girlfriend and I are going to see Avenue Q on Valentine's Day. Before I get it for not being romantic, it's what SHE wanted.
I think that's a great way to spend Valentine's Day--I thought it was hilarious.
There's even a magic item IG - a flute - that when played, forcing everyone around you to dance. Its also a great way to get under the skin of the opposing faction, when your stuck on a boat together - you dance around them.
Its just random silliness, really. :D
That song is from Avenue Q, a send-up of Sesame Street on Broadway.
Ahhh, Okay... I was wondering where the song was from.
Ahhh, Okay... I was wondering where the song was from.
-Ah, Avenue Q...With such classics as:
"The internet is for porn"
"Sucks to be me"
"If you were gay"
"My girlfriend from Canada"
"You can scream as loud as you want when you're having sex"
-Ah, Avenue Q...With such classics as:
"The internet is for porn"
"Sucks to be me"
"If you were gay"
"My girlfriend from Canada"
"You can scream as loud as you want when you're having sex"
Not to mention,
"Everyone's a little bit racist,"
"Schadenfreude,"
"I'm not wearing underwear today," and
"What do you do with a B.A. in English"
"4 years of college, and plenty of knowledge, has got me this worthless degree,
I can't pay the bills yet, cause I've got no skills yet...."
Really, I can't wait.
Its also a great way to get under the skin of the opposing faction, when your stuck on a boat together - you dance around them.
I prefered getting under their skin on a boat by ramming my sword in their gullet, but maybe that was just me. :P Heh, I always thought it was funny as Hell when the poor bastard couldn't get off at his destination on account of being dead.
(Although they've often done the same to me, or tried to. Many a time I've been forced to abandon ship when I was sharing a boat with a Horde player who was a bit to tough for me to handle, or several Horde players. Man, it sucked having to swim back to the docks)So it's just occurred to me that we have passed the amount of posts on the old "Ask a Realms Designer" Thread, and we are coming up on the posts on the current one. Behold a victory for off-topic discussion and 4ed baiting and flaming!
-Once you reach a certain point, there literally just isn't anything to talk about anymore. The horse that we were beating has already been turned into a thin, watery paste.
-Once you reach a certain point, there literally just isn't anything to talk about anymore. The horse that we were beating has already been turned into a thin, watery paste.
Nothing more to talk about? Have we had any mention of Hitler, the Holocaust, or WWII being used as a horrible example for something that contains nothing even remotely close to the actual severity of the example? I mean really, have we? It's been so long, I don't want to go back and read though all the posts again.....
Have we had any mention of Hitler, the Holocaust, or WWII being used as a horrible example for something that contains nothing even remotely close to the actual severity of the example? I mean really, have we? It's been so long, I don't want to go back and read though all the posts again.....
-Are these the WotC forums?
:PAnyone want to think this is all a clever plot to capitalize on the Dragonlance animated film!?
THOSE FIENDS! HOW DARE THEY WISH TO MAKE MONEY!
-Are these the WotC forums?
Wait, was this the thread where someone compared those who like the changes to people who were influenced by Hitler's speeches?
Okay, to take this thread a different direction I am going to thank the designers for aspects of the Realms they destroyed. Thank you for destroying a chunk of epic level NPCs. There were simply too many. I'm not talking about Elminster, or the Seven Sisters. I'm not referring to Halaster, or Blackstaff, or anyone else you normally hear mentioned. I'm referring to all the other epic level npcs, because really, the obvious ones are really just the tip of the iceberg. In Forgotten Realms, it reached a point where epic, simply wasn't all that epic any longer. One could form a small army of epic level characters, without even touching on the Chosen. That is just a little ridiculous. Isn't epic supposed to be rare? Isn't it supposed to mean something?
Unfortunately that is all I can think of at the moment, well other than the Shadow Weave. Anyone else got anything?
Unfortunately that is all I can think of at the moment, well other than the Shadow Weave. Anyone else got anything?
-I'm as high as a kite right now, and I think I'm doing a pretty good job simply posting with any kind of relevance, but, no, I don't got anything. Maybe integrating Kara-Tur a little more, as is seems 4e might.
-I'm as high as a kite right now, and I think I'm doing a pretty good job simply posting with any kind of relevance.....
Hey, that's how I was earlier today while I was supposed to be sleeping. I was on this heavy duty pain medication for migraines that was pretty interesting. It even made craptastic sitcoms seem amusing. You think heavy duty narcotic pain killers would help you sleep, but apparently not. Now I'm at work, and I'm just desperately trying to stay awake, which winds up having some of the same affect. I just hope I don't sleep through most of my birthday which started, oh, about 1 1/2 hours ago. Besides, right now to me, relevance is HIGHLY overrated.
-Heh, it took me like four minutes to write that properly. Ah, good stuff...
THOSE FIENDS! HOW DARE THEY WISH TO MAKE MONEY!
Really! Everyone knows that making money is Satanic!
So lets see... they're bringing back Demons and Devils rather then the PC Baatezu and Tanarri... Devils makes pacts now for people's souls... the new magic system is being referred to as "Rawlingsian', as opposed to the old 'Vancian', and J K Rawlings is a confessed Wiccan and an enemy of the Church (according to the church, that is)... I guess it's all starting to make sense now...
So I suppose Hasbro is going to sacrifice a few un-baptized babies to christen their 4e launch.
I guess all that lead paint wasn't as succesful as they had planned.... :P
BWA HA HA HA!!!
So it's just occurred to me that we have passed the amount of posts on the old "Ask a Realms Designer" Thread, and we are coming up on the posts on the current one. Behold a victory for off-topic discussion and 4ed baiting and flaming!
FREEDOM!!!!
The reason why dancing, and many other silly pursuits, are popular on Warcraft is because folks spend a lot of time standing around waiting for friends, guildies, auctions, instance runs, battlegrounds, etc... and everyone tries to do fun stuff to pass the time. So walking through a city naked, and hoping up on a statue or fountain and dancing has become a spectator sport.
There's even a magic item IG - a flute - that when played, forcing everyone around you to dance. Its also a great way to get under the skin of the opposing faction, when your stuck on a boat together - you dance around them.
Its just random silliness, really. :D
Ah, thanks for the answer.
And that would be yet another reason why I'm not interested in online multiplayer gaming (I'm not very patient).-I'm as high as a kite right now...
-Benedryl.
-Benedryl.
*LOL* Awww...
* Lord Karsus does not condone or recommend recreational drug use in any way, shape or form...
the new magic system is being referred to as "Rawlingsian', as opposed to the old 'Vancian', and J K Rawlings is a confessed Wiccan and an enemy of the Church
Wow, she's the most Christian Wiccan I've ever seen.....
Thanks for all birthday greetings, it turned out to be the best birthday ever. And of course none of that had anything to do with the results of one Florida primary...:D
The Lich King in some ways in in the same position Sauron was in in Middle Earth. Warcraft lore does say that the Lich King Arthas is the most powerful being ever to walk on Azeroth, making him stronger than Kil-Jaden, Archimonde, and Cenarius, who are all at least demigod power.
At least, until he gets repeatedly slapped around and farmed by some waaaaay too serious raiding guild.
At least, until he gets repeatedly slapped around and farmed by some waaaaay too serious raiding guild.
Phat Lewt!!!!!!
Damn you Harry Potter, sticking your evil tendrils into High Fantasy...
I won't be buying any more FR novels and, if things are going to stay this way, I'll never buy any other D&D products: I never meant to go this far, but this has to come to an end, once and for all, in one way or in the other.
You don't left me (or other fans who think like me) any other chance: so drastic are changes you force onto the whole D&D.
Welcome to the world of ex-Realms players, looks like we'll be as big, if not a bigger crowd than the one's that stay.
Unless they choose to continu to write books in different eras, you say goodbye to almost all of the novel characters not named Drizzt, Elminster, or possibly Elaith. 100 yrs is a loooonnngggg time.
So is Eravis Cale dead before the end of the Twilight Wars series???? How about the characters in the Sacrifice of the Widow series, are we actually reading their history????
It's all very confusing.
So is Eravis Cale dead before the end of the Twilight Wars series???? How about the characters in the Sacrifice of the Widow series, are we actually reading their history????
It's all very confusing.
Yes, all novels are consitered canon. We know that many will be ousted after the 100 year time skip, and the time skip gives the authors a huge leway to describe the manners of their ends without disrupting current canon.
So is Eravis Cale dead before the end of the Twilight Wars series????
-No. The events of those books take place in DR 1374/DR 1375.
How about the characters in the Sacrifice of the Widow series, are we actually reading their history????
-Same answer as above, although it takes place a few years later.
Welcome to the world of ex-Realms players, looks like we'll be as big, if not a bigger crowd than the one's that stay.
The big crowd of people who stop playing FR because of the changes? You mean this one guy out of a thousand? I guess WotC will survive the losses.
DB
The big crowd of people who stop playing FR because of the changes? You mean this one guy out of a thousand? I guess WotC will survive the losses.
DB
-No, we've already established elsewhere that there is an estimated 30 people who actually play D&D out there, since 13 people is around 50% of all active players. ;)
-No, we've already established elsewhere that there is an estimated 30 people who actually play D&D out there, since 13 people is around 50% of all active players. ;)
Darn... I should have done my research :P
DB
Darn... I should have done my research :P
DB
-That's alright. It's a common misperception. Spread the truth.
Got a link to that?
Thanks--as I said above, I don't like it.;)
That's just pathetic.OH don't get me started on Prestige Classes.
I thought all players were "prestigous" (sp?). That's why they are not NPC's.
Prestige classes are redundant. Based on game play, the roll of the dice, and the decisions characters make, and the corresponding weapon and non-weapon proficiencies they pick up as they "learn" something and gain experience aren't they molded into something unique and thereby "prestigous"?
Not really no, when the ROman Empire split there were two Emperors (Byzantium by far outlasting Rome) but as far as I can recall, and I may be wrong about this, the Church and the Pope was always located in Rome even when there was a Western Empire in headquartered in Ravenna. At most Byzantium/Constantinople had a Bishop or a Cardinal (havent a clue about that sort of ecclessistical heirarchy)
The Western Christian church is now referred to as Catholic, while the Eastern Christian church is now referred to as the Orthodox church. Both churches were ruled by the Pope in Rome in the beginning, however as some point in time (apologize in advance for lack of knowledge of church history)the Eastern church hierarchy became positioned by more locals and fewer Italians, and chose to keep some of their local festivals and dress customs, etc. Rome's attempt to change this led to the Easterners naming thier own pope. Over the years the Catholic and Orthodox churches have come closer and moved apart and come closer again. Most of the recent dialogue was brought about by His Holiness Pope (Saint) John Paul II.
Not on topic, but just wanted to add some clarification on the above post.
The Eastern Church has a Patriarch, not a Pope, and is ultimatly ruled by the state.
The Eastern Church has a Patriarch, not a Pope, and is ultimatly ruled by the state.
-Really? So, the Greek Orthodox is ultimatley "ruled" by the Greek government, the Russian Orthodox by Russia, and so on? Interesting. The English do the same, though, so I guess it's shouldn't be much of a surprise.
Did they figure out who got to wear the 'funny hat' by doing a cage-match? :D
-There might be more people interested in religion, in this day and age, if they did, given the popularity of the WWF and everything.
Did they figure out who got to wear the 'funny hat' by doing a cage-match? :D
-They used the elimination chamber to figure that out.
18DELTA;)
At the last minute, the president comes and out and says it will be four-way match, against the Rabid Rabi and the Iron Imam.
At the last minute, the president comes and out and says it will be four-way match, against the Rabid Rabi and the Iron Imam.
-Hmm...
The Rabid Rabbi
-vs.-
The Iron Imam
-vs.-
The Pontiff of Pain
-vs.-
The Archbishop of CanterBuryyourheadinthemat (Can you think of a better one?)
The Archbishop of Assault, the Pontiff of Pain, His Eminence, the Holy Water Sprinklerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.......
Father Crime!!!!!!!
Yeah. I don't watch Wrestling. No. Not at all...
...the Pontiff of Pain...
-Now, that is awesome.
:bounce: :heehee18DELTA
. Still: I have a warm fuzzy feeling every time I logg onto these boards.Not on topic, but interesting nonetheless, I heard a few weeks ago at a guest lecture at my uni that recent research implies that Emperor Constantine used extensively greco/roman myth (oracles, sun cults and stuff) to promote the new idea of "one" god.... anyway, this brings me back on topic
:Why don't people in the realms, after it is shown clearly (again
) that the gods that be don't have a clue how to run the show, turn to AO? If anyone could stop those pesky RSEs it's him!The Western Christian church is now referred to as Catholic, while the Eastern Christian church is now referred to as the Orthodox church. Both churches were ruled by the Pope in Rome in the beginning, however as some point in time (apologize in advance for lack of knowledge of church history)the Eastern church hierarchy became positioned by more locals and fewer Italians, and chose to keep some of their local festivals and dress customs, etc. Rome's attempt to change this led to the Easterners naming thier own pope. Over the years the Catholic and Orthodox churches have come closer and moved apart and come closer again. Most of the recent dialogue was brought about by His Holiness Pope (Saint) John Paul II.
Not on topic, but just wanted to add some clarification on the above post.
Allen got it right, but a little more clarification. When the capitol of the Roman Empire moved to Byzantium (ie when the Empire split), some of the bishops of Constantinople thought that they had the authority of the Bishop of Rome (ie the Pope) when the East lost control and communications with the West. This led the East to generally use their authority to rule, make dogma changes, etc. When the two halves regained communication, neither one wanted to submit to the traditions of the other, hense the Great Schism. It was never really a "lets kill the heathens" fight like the various religious wars that wracked Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries; more like a Cold War. It helped that neither half of the Church really came in contact with eath other after the various Middle East empires arose and closed off communications. However, in the last few decades, a large push, headed by JP II has been to reconsile with the various Catholic church spinoffs.
IIRC, I don't think JP II is a saint yet. There is a minimum wait time (which was frequently waived by JP) but Benedict is more of a traditional Pope. I think he's Beatified though.
History buff and ex-Catholic.
You're a bunch of silly
Not on topic, but interesting nonetheless, I heard a few weeks ago at a guest lecture at my uni that recent research implies that Emperor Constantine used extensively greco/roman myth (oracles, sun cults and stuff) to promote the new idea of "one" god.... anyway, this brings me back on topic
Why don't people in the realms, after it is shown clearly (again
Yeah, Constantine personally was the high priest of a pagan group called the Cult of The Invincible Sun. He just used his whole story of the cross in thr sky (which I am not denying happened) to instill fanaticism in his flaggering campaign. He still felt a very strong connection with the Greek god Apollo, but used Christianity for purely Utilitarian purposes.
Lykor, that may be true. But back then there really was no organized church since it was still consitered an outlaw organization and the Bishop of Rome really had no actual control over his fellows, though he claimed legitimacy to rule (supposedly from Peter).
As for there being no official communication between Rome and Constantinople before the Great Schism, I must be misunderstanding you - because such a statement makes no sense. There was communication, and rivalry, between the two centres way before the 11th century; if nothing else, St. Cyril and Methodius, arguably the most influential missionaries of the Orthodox church, resided in Rome for a while. There was even a mini-great schism in the 9th, if I remember correctly, which was attributed to the Orthodox Patriarch Photius.
The main issue was, most likely, political - the Pope claimed a higher position than that of the other four bishops (later patriarch), which they, and the patriarch of Constantinople in particular, did not want to give him.
"The Spellplague did it."
Since it's what they're using (and going to use) to explain the destruction of what the Realms is suffering through.
I'd like to give a shout out to the cool, ethnically diverse, regions in Forgotten Realms that have perished in this onslaught:
To the Old Empires, you were the only Greek (Chessenta), Egyptian (Mulhorand) and Sumerian-like (Unther) region players could explore or be a native of. We'll miss your presence and the fact no one in the Realms will ever experience that Pharaoh and exploring pyramids flavor in the game ever again.
To Maztica, the one continent that had tons of potential but was never pursued. Aztec and Mesoamerican-styled campaigning is now dead in the Realms, the one place my wife was hoping they'd eventually get around to fleshing out. Thanks for extinguishing her small piece of hope.
To the Shaar, a vast, windswept plain that was a lot of fun exploring but apparently not enough for the designers. Goodbye wemics, you awesome lion-centaurs, thri-kreen and loxo and many others.
Am I missing anything else?
And since the Ue is MY baby, they're not going anywhere. :P
In fact, strangely enough, the Spellplague never even hit the Ue. ;)
The Thri-kreen never really fit in the Realms, so I wouldn't mind seeing them go.
Wemics - Meh - I'm pretty sure Ed created those, so I am lothe to get rid of them, but I've never used them, and probably never will.
I admit, I abhorr most of the anthropomorphic critters in D&D. Except gnolls, minotaurs and thri-kreen (and those I forgot).
Fear not, good Fabius, I've got a whole kingdom of them down in the Utter East.
And since the Ue is MY baby, they're not going anywhere. :P
In fact, strangely enough, the Spellplague never even hit the Ue. ;)
.
Hmm, is the Utter East counted as part of Faerun or Kara-Tur, because the Spellplague would have no effect anyway if Mystra has no power there.
I admit, I abhorr most of the anthropomorphic critters in D&D. Except gnolls, minotaurs and thri-kreen (and those I forgot).
-I am going to mostly agree with that, though I have a few more on my 'like' list, though they are mostly extraplanar creatures to begin with.
Hmm, is the Utter East counted as part of Faerun or Kara-Tur, because the Spellplague would have no effect anyway if Mystra has no power there.
-It is part of Faerûn. Technically, the Weave was planet-wide, as well.
-It is part of Faerûn. Technically, the Weave was planet-wide, as well.
Yet it is not utilized in places like Maztica. Strange indeed.
And I've always been a fan of Babar. ;)
Yet it is not utilized in places like Maztica. Strange indeed.
-Not utilized and not existing are two seperate thngs. Laws exist in "lawless" places. They just aren't obeyed.
-Not utilized and not existing are two seperate thngs. Laws exist in "lawless" places. They just aren't obeyed.
Personally, I just think it was TSR's own laziness and failure to flesh out Maztica properly (as well as the blatant copying of real-world civilizations), that ruined Maztica. No excuses.
"Side note to all those would-be game designers out there: When you hear yourself making that claim, you might be in danger of losing touch with reality. Sometimes you’re right, and your innovative game design concept just needs a little time to sink in. (The cycling initiative system used by 3rd Edition D&D is a good example of that—back in 1999, some very vociferous playtesters were convinced that it would ruin D&D combat forever. Turned out that wasn’t exactly true.) But every time you convince yourself that you know better than the people playing your game, you’re opening the possibility of a very rude (and costly) awakening."
Yeah, well.
Magnus
Like all things, there is a thing such as not being detailed enough, but there is also such a thing as being too detailed, or giving the wrong sort of detail.
For instance, most of the novels (Sorry LK) are the wrong sort of detail, because the larger the event, the more crippling it is to a D+D game.
Let's say your PC's are less than level 20. And, they happen, for whatever reason, to BE in Ordulin on Nightal 2, 1374.
BOOM. The Adumbral Calyx appears.
DM: Sorry guys, I tried to get you out of the city, but you were dragging your feet, and you had no way of knowing, you're just passing adventurers. You're dead. Give me your character sheets.
I would be nice and allow the PC's to take a ridiculous amount of damage and then, IF they lived, IF they had the right spells memorized, allow them to either fight or sneak their way out, but the problem, of course, is that they'd probably all become shadows before they make it 200 yards. On the other hand, if the party cleric has Celestial Brilliance memorized, it doesn't matter what the shadows do, most of THEM will die before they realize how screwed they are.
But if you just happen to screw up and your players are in the wrong place at the wrong time... well thats when a powerful interdimensional being decides to whisk the entire Inn the PCs are at back to his home plane.
Or maybe the players are pulled into the Domains of Dread, or yanked into the Ethereal by some beastie, or teleported to a distant world, because some crazy old mage needs a group of heroes to help him.
Really... you needn't EVER let your players get splattered...
Really... you needn't EVER let your players get splattered...
Sometimes though, they are just asking for it.
DM: Sorry guys, I tried to get you out of the city, but you were dragging your feet, and you had no way of knowing, you're just passing adventurers. You're dead. Give me your character sheets.
-That makes no sense. AGHotR specifically says, "the bulk of its citizens [Ordulin's] are killed". Why can't the PCs be part of the minority that survived? They are in a building that collapses around them. They are trapped, and by the time they are able to escape from the wreckage, the calamity is overwith.
If any sort of powerful destructive force was released nearby, a small bubble of Inertia would raise, and remain in effect for a century, after which the stasis field drops and the PCs re-awaken in a new time.
Basically, a giant AOE Timestop designed to function like a bomb shelter.
Not only do your characters get to live - but welcome to 4e FR.
It would be just like that Brenden Fraser movie, Blast from the Past.
I must have missed this, but could someone PM me with what happened to KtM? I keep seeing it in sigs. And I liked the ol' duffer, crazed and all.
Done.
It would be just like that Brenden Fraser movie, Blast from the Past.
-I'm torn if that was a good movie or not. ;)
Done.
-PM me if you want more specific/additional details, hawkins.
How can you not like Christopher Walkin and Brenden Fraser in the same movie?
You know... I think Mr. Fraser might make a half-way decent Danilo Thann for the "FR Movie" thread. :D
But if you just happen to screw up and your players are in the wrong place at the wrong time... well thats when a powerful interdimensional being decides to whisk the entire Inn the PCs are at back to his home plane.
No, no, just do it the way WotC is doing it now, cause it's the COOL thing to do.
Just say to the players when something strange happens like that, or a sudden retcon: "The Spellplague did it."
***
DWARF PLAYER: Ya know, I went from seeing heat waves, to seeing black&white in pitch darkness---
DUNGEON MASTER: The Spellplague did it.
DWARF PLAYER: ---to no longer seeing in darkness but seeing better in low-lit areas like an elf.
DUNGEON MASTER: The Spellplague did it.
DWARF PLAYER: All in the span of 14 years (1372-1385 D.R.) of my character's life.
DUNGEON MASTER: The Spellplague did it.
DWARF PLAYER: Technically 114, since now we're all suddenly 100 years into the future...
DUNGEON MASTER: The Spellplague did it.
DWARF PLAYER: And now, dryads get angry and turn Super Saiyan in combat, angels are slaughtering adventurers, about 80% of the cultural and religious diversity in the Realms suddenly melts away, hell, my own patron deity Gorm Gulthyn is suddenly gone (what's the point of being a cleric if your deity tends to die in less than a generation in the Realms?), and the entire multiverse itself turned upside down? My spells do what now? A country of dragon people suddenly appear and a new world that's always existed yet also never existed called Abeir suddenly appears also?
DUNGEON MASTER: The Spellplague did it.
DWARF PLAYER: Hold on...now according to my Knowledge (the planes) check, my mind suddenly warped old information. Succubus and Erinyes are the same creature, yugoloths are now demons...the Abyss is gone and Elemental Chaos arrives...and the principles of Law and Chaos in our cosmos are utterly meaningless and destroyed?
Do I have it all right? Please tell me no more weird changes just happened...
DUNGEON MASTER: The Spellplague did it. Yes, there's a thousand more, and it's all because of the Spellplague.
DWARF PLAYER: Dude, I'm done with D&D. Let's play some Star Wars.
DWARF PLAYER: Dude, I'm done with D&D. Let's play some Star Wars.
-The Spellplague messed with the Planes, so let's not think it didn't mess with the Void. Star Wars is gone, dude. Back to Dungeons and Dragons. :D
DUNGEON MASTER: The Spellplague did it. Yes, there's a thousand more, and it's all because of the Spellplague.
DWARF PLAYER: Dude, I'm done with D&D. Let's play some Star Wars.
I know I've seen this sentiments expressed in so many ways, but that still made my... er, night. Cheers to you, sir!
and they'll have no clue what I'm talking about. :P
"Mark, why is there a dent in my car?"
"The Spellplague did it."
I wonder if the designers will all be wearing "Plague Bearer" T-Shirts at Gencon this year?
Like when you have a test for school, just make stuff up! Then when your teacher asks for an explanation, just tell her it was easier to avoid reading the books and just create new information yourself. :P
BTW, Welcome Back Dan - I've missed you. :D
I wonder if the designers will all be wearing "Plague Bearer" T-Shirts at Gencon this year?
-As long as they don't wear "Rich Baker must be Stopped" T-Shirts, like they promised, I don't care.
I've never taken meds, mostly because they didn't exist when I was a kid, so I just "Ride the Wave" so to speak.
I get periods with bursts of energy, and I start 20 projects, and then I fall into slumps where I do nothing for a month or so.
Its almost like being bipolar in severe cases.
I get periods with bursts of energy, and I start 20 projects, and then I fall into slumps where I do nothing for a month or so.
Its almost like being bipolar in severe cases.
-I do that, and I have nothing wrong with me!
Its almost like being bipolar in severe cases.
Yeah. At this point, I get semi-regularly depressed off of meds, and I sleep a lot.
Bipolar and ADHD are apparently misdiagnosed as each other a lot, which is bad, since the stimulant ADHD meds can make bipolar manic episodes REALLY bad.
-I do that, and I have nothing wrong with me!
You're very ill... see a doctor. :P
I think I also got a little ADD, I am never really able to concentrate well.
Whatever, people say that having these problems are actually a sign of higher intelligence.
Maybe Bipolar IS ADD with out the 'H' (Hyperactivity). The moods swings are still there, but the arc of the swing has a much greater duration with ADD - anywhere from a few weeks to a few months. True Bipolar people can change at the drop of a dime, several times a day.
So... how do I keep this on topic...
I Know! Maybe Midnight had ADD, and it just took awhile for it to manifest with her new godly powers. That means she wasn't PAYING ATENTION when Cyric snuck up behind her and did his thing!
Okay... its a stretch... but I don't want these posts delteted. :P
I suspect the two are closely related somehow, because the ADD meds seems to aggravate the bipolar-like aspects of the illness - my kids would cry for like an hour everyday for no reason whle adjusting to the new drugs - they'd 'crash' way hard from them.
Ah. No, see, ADHD medication is a stiimulant, just like speed, crack, or cocaine. And in fact, the 'come down' off of Adderall and Adderall XR, at least, is even WORSE than it is off of 'street' stuff. Depression isn't even a side effect - it's a known, patented conclusion to each dose of the medication. It's something that I have a particularly tough time dealing with, since by the time I 'crash,' I often still have work and/or socializing to do... Which often leads to me taking another dose, which means I can't go to bed, so I stay up and do work, and the cycle repeats...
So this is why I am talking to my neurologist. I'm crashing in about 4-5 hours, whereas originally on the meds, each dose is supposed to last up to 12. I tried to get Vyvanse, which is supposed to last longer, but it was too week altogether, and I had to take twice as much of it as Adderall to get the same level of effectiveness... So I said screw that, and went back to the Adderall.
Now I think that 90 mg a day is sufficient, but that's a 50% increase from the 60 I was on, and very close to the max dosage. But considering I've been on Adderall for 11 ish years, that may not be bad. And I'm going to ask about Anafril, which is an anti-anxiety medicine that I've read helps with the insomnia from the Adderall, the harshness of the come-down, and the tendency to hyper-focus on irrelevant things when on the tail end (which I sometimes spend hours on).
There's also a few things, like diet/vitamin changes - increased magnesium and calcium - that may help, too.
Maybe Bipolar IS ADD with out the 'H' (Hyperactivity).
The ADHD vs. ADD part is pretty much irrelevant now, and it's just all ADD with different symptoms of the same chemical imbalance. While I tend to be less physically hyper than some others with ADHD, I have my days where I'm just twitching, spasming, jumping, and spinning in place now and then.
The moods swings are still there, but the arc of the swing has a much greater duration with ADD - anywhere from a few weeks to a few months. True Bipolar people can change at the drop of a dime, several times a day.
Slightly incorrect. Bi polar was originally described as having mood swings every few weeks or months, or most frequently, days. Only RECENTLY did they reclassify bi polar to include people who changed moods hourly. I know this because my sister was originally classified with Intermittent Explosive Disorder, and when she went to a new psychiatrist (rather than a psychologist like last time - they're hacks), he laughed at that and told her that she was bi polar - bi polar Type II, the new one, rather than Type I.
I Know! Maybe Midnight had ADD, and it just took awhile for it to manifest with her new godly powers. That means she wasn't PAYING ATENTION when Cyric snuck up behind her and did his thing!
Okay... its a stretch... but I don't want these posts delteted.
VERY GOOD TOPICAL POINT GOOD SIR.
You're very ill... see a doctor. :P
-Am I?
I think I'll use that excuse RW the next time someone asks me why something is a certain way...
and they'll have no clue what I'm talking about. :P
"Mark, why is there a dent in my car?"
"The Spellplague did it."
I wonder if the designers will all be wearing "Plague Bearer" T-Shirts at Gencon this year?
Funny thing, I was already planning to do that LOL Starting with my hobby shop. We'll see if it spreads after that. :D
SCEPTER OF THE SORCERER-KINGS
MACHINE OF LUM THE MAD
CUP AND TALISMAN OF AL'AKBAR
I was shocked to here about the up coming changes and have worked too hard on NPC storylines and goals to let the player characters down with doom. I gave them options of using regional feats from Cormyr, Vilhon Reach, the Dragon Coast, and the Heartlands. With so bleak a future ahead for the Player Characters, I hesitate to inform them about the "Spell Plague" to the full degree. I did mention it to them at the last game and tried to find out what kind of characters they were going to bring in for this new site based adventure that should take them from 1-12th Level. It will take them from Febuary to October (if not more) to complete. I have not yet set the season or figured the DR dates and came by here to see what has been going on. What a beautiful mess I have found. Now I will have to painfully and ever so gently reveal through game play to the PC's Cleric of Helm that the fate of the Realms and the Vigilant One maybe out of their control. Once the Artifacts above uncovered with about c.40, 3 hour game sessions. It should be similar to the chaos of Ed's SHANDRIL'S SAGA. After that I will have to just wait and see how I feel about the new material. We may have to go back carving our own world as we use to do in the early 80's. I may introduce a M-Theory and have our game world based on the old materials.
Check out those ARTIFACTS ABOVE. If ye can find them.
CUP AND TALISMAN OF AL'AKBAR
I don't know about the other two, but that one is a Greyhawk artifact. Al'Akbar is the Greyhawk version of Allah. It's actually a really really bad rip-off of Allahu Akbar or Allah is Great in Arabic.
I remember when they forced me to take ADHD medications as a child. I hated, I mean DESPISED the side-effects of Ritalin. I avoided taking them as often as possible, however when I didn't take them, my elementary school teachers would threaten to not allow me back in class until I was back on the medication. That's the reason they put me on Ritalin to begin with, was because I wasn't allowed to go back to Kindergarten until I was on medication.
Midnight does not have ADHD, though for some reason, I think Cyric might. Don't ask me why, it's just a feeling I get....
Midnight does not have ADHD, though for some reason, I think Cyric might. Don't ask me why, it's just a feeling I get....
-He just leaves you with that impression, I agree.
I just took him for a Sociopath with delusions of grandeur...
No, that's Napoleon.
Markus, what about the new Battlestar Galactica series (just to stay in the confines of your analogy)? It surpasses the original in quality by far, but does a lot of stuff a different way.
Don't even talk about Battlestar Galactica, I grew up with the original series 14yrs. old to 1990. The new series is so unlike the story line and characters (Ex. Apollo being female ans compared to male is the orginal) and the dark feel. I loved to original and dislike the new one. I watched Battle Galactica a lot when I was a teenager because I loved the characters and many of the actors/actresses in it. If it comes on to this day I still watch it.
Without Lorne Green, and some of the others it just isn't the same.
I also think drawing an analogy between something old and new with how the old and new versions of BSG came out is not as universally positive as some would like to think. In my opinion, BSG is a very average sci-fi show that happens to capitalize on a brand name using an blatant dose of heavy artificial grit to make it seem like more than it is. There are some very obvious flaws to BSG as well, especially for a show trying so hard to be realistic and gritty.
I think Babylon 5, Space: Above and Beyond, and Firefly have tread the same territory (and often better) before.
-All these shows I've never seen...
I'm with ya
I'm with ya
-Well...We have...G.I. Joe, so it's all good.
Snake Eyes FTW! :DGI Joe was poop.
Don't even talk about Battlestar Galactica, I grew up with the original series 14yrs. old to 1990.
I, too, grew up with the original series. That's why I know that it's a load of crap swimming on the Star Wars wave, with underclass actors (save for Lorne Green) and very bad writing.
The same shoe fits Babylon 5. It managed to hold my interest because of the metaplot, but I cringed many times at the "acting" many of the actors showed, especially Mira Furlann and Bruce Boxleitner (with the exceptions of Peter Jurasik and Andreas Katsulas).
Looks like Razz has reached the point I hit after the Time of Troubles.
There will always be new settings, and, in time, they can grow to be as rich and detailed as the Realms was, in its heyday, before all the god-killin' and crap began.
-All these shows I've never seen...
I have never seen the new BSG, but though I like Farscape, I vastly prefer Firefly.
P.S. Happy Birthday to me!
I must have missed this, but could someone PM me with what happened to KtM? I keep seeing it in sigs. And I liked the ol' duffer, crazed and all.
I too would like to know, so, could someone PM it to me as well?
I, too, grew up with the original series. That's why I know that it's a load of crap swimming on the Star Wars wave, with underclass actors (save for Lorne Green) and very bad writing.
Same here. Yet I'd like to watch the first two films (the series was edited down to two films for German TV, the whole original series wasn't broadcast until years later) again one of these days, because in spite of their crappiness a little nostalgia is bound to kick in.
Nevertheless, I strongly dislike the new BSG. Why even call it that? The basic concept and a couple of names is all that's left, and after sitting through the pilot and the first two episodes I fail to see any appeal whatsoever. But I have to admit I felt the same about Babylon 5. Firefly all the way ;)
DB
And when you find yourself in a quandary, ask, "What would WotC do?"
That answer is simple. "What would annoy the most people in the least amount of time?"
I continue to try to keep an open mind about 4e. I really do. I keep clinging to the fact that I LIKe SW: SAGA and they stated it was a hint. Then I remember the fiasco of my Warblade in an existing campaign and how I switched characters because he was so more powerful than even the mages. I try to be enthusiastic about 4e, then remember that I thought 3rd was too munchkin and 4e is even more so (seen the rogue preview yet?)
As for an open mind about 4e FR. That failed, miserably. This New Realms is horrible. It is no more the Forgotten Realms than it is Middle Earth.
Funny thing, I was already planning to do that LOL Starting with my hobby shop. We'll see if it spreads after that. :D
Was in my Local Game Store the other day and got to discussing 4e and the New Realms with the owner. They have no plans on buying much 4e. They don;t expect it to sell well. Their copies of the preview books sit on the shelves gathering dust. And when I brought up the New Realms and the ensuing changes, their reaction was, "well, there goes one of our money makers". They liked I brought it up though, because the two RPG groups in the back heard me and suddenly were buying up all the 3rd Ed FR stuff in the store.
Was in my Local Game Store the other day and got to discussing 4e and the New Realms with the owner. They have no plans on buying much 4e. They don;t expect it to sell well. Their copies of the preview books sit on the shelves gathering dust. And when I brought up the New Realms and the ensuing changes, their reaction was, "well, there goes one of our money makers". They liked I brought it up though, because the two RPG groups in the back heard me and suddenly were buying up all the 3rd Ed FR stuff in the store.
That's good to hear.
GI Joe was poop.
-G.I. Joe illustrates the classic struggle of good versus evil. It's a can't go wrong formula.
-Maybe COBRA killed the Realms...They are terrorists.
-G.I. Joe illustrates the classic struggle of good versus evil. It's a can't go wrong formula.
-Maybe COBRA killed the Realms...They are terrorists.
Yes! Cobra replaced Rich Baker with a synthoid duplicate to destroy the Realms! We figured it out. Now to stop their vile plan!
Yes! Cobra replaced Rich Baker with a synthoid duplicate to destroy the Realms! We figured it out. Now to stop their vile plan!
-Only Sgt. Slaughter can help us now...
I have assembled the Spellplague from nature's evilest plagues! I will unleash it upon the Realms while I run off to Wotc-La to plot RPG domination!
I think 4th edition caused Global Warming.
-Well, that was the Spellplague.
Looking very much of course like 60's album covers. ;)
I really got to get me some of that Spellplague and smoke it. :D
No, according to the latest article, the Spellplague causes everyone to have 60's-style phsychedlic halucinations and imagine giant floating clouts of earth with fairy castles on them. :P
Looking very much of course like 60's album covers. ;)
I really got to get me some of that Spellplague and smoke it. :D
Mystra's true and secret purpose: drug Czar of the Realms. It wasn't the year of blue fire, it was the year of psychedelic dust.
The stuff will blow your mind... literally. :D
Oh, you haven't partied, my friend, until you've smoked some Cerulean Blue.
The stuff will blow your mind... literally. :D
At the very least, it'll blow apart your world!
No, according to the latest article, the Spellplague causes everyone to have 60's-style phsychedlic halucinations and imagine giant floating clouts of earth with fairy castles on them. :P
Looking very much of course like 60's album covers. ;)
I really got to get me some of that Spellplague and smoke it. :D
So the designers are really going for drug-induced fantasy here? *LOL*
:: Jumps in the Volkswagon Bus ::
-C'mon everyone!
-So, where in Faerûn is Woodstock going to be held?
:: Jumps in the Volkswagon Bus ::
-C'mon everyone!
*hops aboard the Weird Wagon!*
Was in my Local Game Store the other day and got to discussing 4e and the New Realms with the owner. They have no plans on buying much 4e. They don;t expect it to sell well. Their copies of the preview books sit on the shelves gathering dust. And when I brought up the New Realms and the ensuing changes, their reaction was, "well, there goes one of our money makers". They liked I brought it up though, because the two RPG groups in the back heard me and suddenly were buying up all the 3rd Ed FR stuff in the store.
That's awesome, I hope more people, old and new to the Realms, purchases 1E-3E Realms material so they can fully appreciate what it was...instead of what 4E will butcher it into.
*hops aboard the Weird Wagon!*
-What was the name of that boat I supposedly had?
-So, where in Faerûn is Woodstock going to be held?
It's going to be held at Yasgur's farm, of Course, in Cormyr...
Or didn't you know Cormyrean Farmer w/Pitchfork #2 had a name? ;)
They have a terrific lineup - The Rolling Stonegiants, Jefferson Skyship, Jannath Joplin, Arrowsmith, Umbral Sabbath, Greatful Undead, Joan Baatezu, The Unseen (formerly known as the Who?), Blood, Sweat, and Tears (A Crinti Group), Bruenor Battlehammer and the Family Drizzt, etc, etc...
The U.S.S. Mary Sue?
It's going to be held at Yasgur's farm, of Course, in Cormyr...
Or didn't you know Cormyrean Farmer w/Pitchfork #2 had a name? ;)
They have a terrific lineup - The Rolling Stonegiants, Jefferson Skyship, Jannath Joplin, Arrowsmith, Umbral Sabbath, Greatful Undead, Joan Baatezu, The Unseen (formerly known as the Who?), Blood, Sweat, and Tears (A Crinti Group), Bruenor Battlehammer and the Family Drizzt, etc, etc...
You just made me spill my early coffe on my desktop.
Rompin with the Psychedelic Mountains in the Shadow 'Maters, listening to Mintiper Moonsilver sing "Where, oh where, has my Forgotten Realms gone," while a Japanese Marching Band plays Barry White music over on stage two, and a Froghemoth in a smoking jacket distributes Fiendish Pornography to all who will read it, while smoking a big fat cigar.
Bliss...
The U.S.S. Mary Sue?
-I don't think that was it.
It's going to be held at Yasgur's farm, of Course, in Cormyr...
Or didn't you know Cormyrean Farmer w/Pitchfork #2 had a name? ;)
-News to me.
They have a terrific lineup - The Rolling Stonegiants, Jefferson Skyship, Jannath Joplin, Arrowsmith, Umbral Sabbath, Greatful Undead, Joan Baatezu, The Unseen (formerly known as the Who?), Blood, Sweat, and Tears (A Crinti Group), Bruenor Battlehammer and the Family Drizzt, etc, etc...
-A good line-up this year.
"Tell them a hookah smoking caterpillar has given you the call
Call Alice, When she was just small"
Alice's 'stuff' can be found in ports as far away as Waterdeep and Baldur's Bigate. ;)
It's all starting to make SENSE now!
The more you smoke, the more 4e makes sense... :D
The new 4e Hin have the best stuff - Swamp Hydro...
"Tell them a hookah smoking caterpillar has given you the call
Call Alice, When she was just small"
Alice's 'stuff' can be found in ports as far away as Waterdeep and Baldur's Bigate. ;)
I just envisioned a scene in 1385, a group of half-baked Luiren halflings are sitting on a mountainside enjoying special pipeweed... and Halruaa explodes in a 'cerulean' fury of wild magic:
"Oooh! Aaaah!"
"Such pretty colors!"
*giggles all around*
"Stop Elminstering that pipe, gimme!"
*more giggles*
:invasion:
;)
-You know what the first thing I thought of when I saw this Verizon FIOS commercial?
;)
Gee, I wonder what THAT could be.;)
-You know what the first thing I thought of when I saw this Verizon FIOS commercial?
;)
Awesome! :D
DB
Is 'Awesome' even cooler then 'cool'?
They may need to go back to the drawing board now... :P
Gee, I wonder what THAT could be.;)
:P
They may need to go back to the drawing board now... :P
-5th Edition...
I say this both in irony and because I loved the Transformers movie.
EDIT: Have you seen the new video!?
Is 'Awesome' even cooler then 'cool'?
Awesome Monsters!
Thats freakin' hysterical!!!
Are these guys predictable or WHAT? :D
Despite my respect for Shia LaBeouf, I could not bring myself to go see that.
Oddly enough, I loved it and I dislike Shia. It's in my top 3 favorite movies, ever. I've always been a huge Transformers nerd. I'm listening to the theme from the movie right now, and loving it. :p
I've heard all Michael Bay movies are "the same," though, so I'm just fortunate this is the only one I've ever seen.
PS:
That presenter is bad. He has bad time, poor word transition, bad audience receptiveness, and he ROCKS. Rocking is SO BAD. And what the crap is with the capitalization on his slides?
Oh my god, there's so much awkwardness in that room.
Double oh my god, the "What isn't changing" is terrible.
It carries the Dungeons & Dragons logo on it, with a small text box below it stating it's for the Realms!!!
The Eberron book shaows a HUGE Eberron logo, and D&D is in the much smaller print along the top... we've gone core, ladies and gentleman... its indisputable now.
And, of course, we get a Shade (:yuck
on the cover, which is probably the only thing I would find worst then Drizzt.More Shadowcrap... yay...
#1 peeve - Notice the Forgotten Realms books DO NOT have an FR logo... THERE ISN'T ANY!!!
It carries the Dungeons & Dragons logo on it, with a small text box below it stating it's for the Realms!!!
The Eberron book shaows a HUGE Eberron logo, and D&D is in the much smaller print along the top... we've gone core, ladies and gentleman... its indisputable now.
And, of course, we get a Shade (:yuck
More Shadowcrap... yay...
Shades....
#1 peeve - Notice the Forgotten Realms books DO NOT have an FR logo... THERE ISN'T ANY!!!
It carries the Dungeons & Dragons logo on it, with a small text box below it stating it's for the Realms!!!
The Eberron book shaows a HUGE Eberron logo, and D&D is in the much smaller print along the top... we've gone core, ladies and gentleman... its indisputable now.
I think the idea is to remove the distinction between setting specific and setting free rules, presumably so that it's easier to use all the books published in your games.
FR DOES NOT have a logo, and Eberron does!
WTF?
If what you say were true, then the Eberron book should have also gone logo-less.
I'm not an Eberron-hater or anything (I actually like the setting in some respects), but it made me wonder about things...
FR fans were directred to the parking garage, where Gallagher demonstrated on some Watermelons exactly how the 4d design team went about 'creating' cool new things.
There was a lot of clapping when the guy said "We care about Eberron."
I'm not an Eberron-hater or anything (I actually like the setting in some respects), but it made me wonder about things...
Yeah, I really don't know how to interpret that or the lack of a prominent FR logo on the FR books either. (I think the Eberron cover they showed is still a 3e book, or a 3e/4E transition, edition neutral book.)
I also noticed that someone asked who was on the cover of the FRCG.
Another thing that nags at me. Maybe I'm biased and I don't have hard numbers to show this, so maybe it means nothing. Over the last few months, I've noticed that the places I go looking for PBEMs and Play-by-Post D&D games seem to show an unsettling dearth of FR games. Regular D&D games and Eberron games start up as usual. In fact, the number of Eberron games seem to be increasing dramatically. FR games seem to be in general decline. A few months ago, it wasn't uncommon to find an FR game recruiting for players with premises such as PCs as members of the Harpers or the Moonstars, the city watch or the Greyhands in Waterdeep, all elf campaigns dealing with various things elven (newly arrived from Evermeet or based out of Everaska or Silverymoon), specialists on retainer to the Silver Marches. Now players suggesting to the DM that a game be set in FR is like pulling teeth.
I'm not sure what is going on. Maybe pre-edition jitters. Maybe it's just the places I visit. Or people are turned off to FR because word spread that FR is changing or even the designers at WotC view the setting as fatally flawed. Or FR really is in serious decline and 4E will change things for the better.
Eberron has an entire 'nother year before 4e hits them, and even then, NOTHING will change. They've pretty much told everyone playing FR that they will HAVE TO start over.
Not that I believe that... I think I'll be just fine. ;)
I would really hate to see this whole thing explode. No one wants to play in a setting that even the company says is messed up to the point of needing to be shot in the head and a clone created from the remains. No matter what the actuality of the setting is, all this criticism (not only from the fans, but the company itself) hanging over the setting can't be good.
People who liked the old version will be offended, and people who didn't like it most likely won't bother with the new one, either.
I sure hope they haven't put all their eggs in one basket.
Over the last few months, I've noticed that the places I go looking for PBEMs and Play-by-Post D&D games seem to show an unsettling dearth of FR games. Regular D&D games and Eberron games start up as usual. In fact, the number of Eberron games seem to be increasing dramatically. FR games seem to be in general decline.
I frequent two play-by-post sites and haven't noticed this at all.
It's particularly noticeable when I'm actually looking for them but keep coming upon Eberron games. Many of the FR games that do start up mostly only use the setting sparingly, while for the Eberron games, judging by the premise, they are full on Eberron games, using the flavor, history and organizations of the setting. Again maybe I'm just more familiar with FR and so view those games with more scrutiny and maybe I really know jack about Eberron and those Eberron game premises really don't use the setting much at all. Who knows, all I know is that I want to play in an FR game and I'm not finding them as easily as I used to.
Actually, Mula, I would like to know which sites you frequent, maybe I'll have better luck finding FR games there.
If that's the case then WotC did more to harm FR for this 4E transition than all of 3e combined.
Quoted for truthery!
Well, I guess we all wish we were you, then.
No need for snarkiness. I just said that I haven't found that to be true. What's wrong with that?
Its just that many of us are seeing nothing but negative reactions in our local communities (I have two LGS's that are anti-4e), and yet others keep saying they hear good things.
I suppose its all a matter of geography, eh? ;)
On a side note - I'm developing some material for a Netbook, and I was wondering if you know of any good sites with Finnish Mytholgy (or Finno-Russian, even).
Thanks --- Mark
PS:
That presenter is bad. He has bad time, poor word transition, bad audience receptiveness, and he ROCKS. Rocking is SO BAD. And what the crap is with the capitalization on his slides?
Oh my god, there's so much awkwardness in that room.
Double oh my god, the "What isn't changing" is terrible.
-I am 90% sure, based on the voice, that the presenter is Chris Perkins.
On a side note - I'm developing some material for a Netbook, and I was wondering if you know of any good sites with Finnish Mytholgy (or Finno-Russian, even).
Thanks --- Mark
I think you're just better off googling stuff, or check Wikipedia. I don't think I've ever encountered a really good Finnish mythology site. And I don't know if there's anything called "Finno-Russian" mythology.
I'm of Estonian ancestry, BTW, and my mother can comprehend 50% of Finnish. ;)
Where'd you get the nice Avatar, Mula?
Finnish folklore also has its share of fey spirits (most notably gnomes) that aren't necessarily included in sources discussing deities and creation myths.
Also, I'm trying to find creatures other then the gods, but folklore sites are practically non-existant for the Finnish.
Make sure you never make the mistake of confusing proper Joulutonttus with Christmas Elves. Them hippie treehuggers are but a pale imitation of the real thing. We take our gnomes seriously 'round these parts.
Nevermind that classic fairy tales could be pretty dark and serious.
Nevermind that classic fairy tales could be pretty dark and serious.
Der Erkonig (The Elfking, or some such):
Wer reitet so spät durch Nacht und Wind?
Es ist der Vater mit seinem Kind;
Er hat den Knaben wohl in dem Arm,
Er fa
Gnomes don't fit into high-fantasy?
Yeah, but Tolkein's Hobbits apparently made the cut.
I guess 'high-fantasy' doesn't mean what I thought it did.
Yeah, but Tolkein's Hobbits apparently made the cut.
I guess 'high-fantasy' doesn't mean what I thought it did.
-Hell, Gnomes are innately magical, as they can cast those spells at will.
Evidently "High Fantasy" means blowing up portions of the planets face, ignoring prior lore, and having floating "motes" of elemental substance all over the damn place. Just sounds messy to me! :raincloud
Read Final Fantasy, every time you get to the middle of the game the world explodes and floating "motes" of elemental substance are all over the damn place.
Read Final Fantasy, every time you get to the middle of the game the world explodes and floating "motes" of elemental substance are all over the damn place.
-The world of Final Fantasy IV, V, VII, VII, XI and XII did not explode at any points during the game. That only happened in Final Fantasy VI.
And while I like super-fantastic worlds as the type presented in Worlds and Monsters, that doesn't mean I think every fantasy world needs to conform to that particular "template". As I said on Candlekeep, I thought the FR setting felt fantastic enough without having a floating mote or mysterious monolithic structure in every square mile of real estate.
And while I like super-fantastic worlds as the type presented in Worlds and Monsters, that doesn't mean I think every fantasy world needs to conform to that particular "template". As I said on Candlekeep, I thought the FR setting felt fantastic enough without having a floating mote or mysterious monolithic structure in every square mile of real estate.
-It certainly backfires when it begins to feel cliche. Before the actual sourcebook is even published, even worse. Like RSEs, and the resurrection of various ancient cultures in 3e.
Yeah, but Tolkein's Hobbits apparently made the cut.
I guess 'high-fantasy' doesn't mean what I thought it did.
Actually, Tolkien's Hobbit's didn;t make it. River rafting, swamp living, Halflings did.
The 4e halflings (hell, the 3rd ed ones too) bear little resemblance to Hobbits (which is a problem I have with them. I prefer the Hobbit-like halflings of 1st and 2nd Ed)
-It certainly backfires when it begins to feel cliche. Before the actual sourcebook is even published, even worse. Like RSEs, and the resurrection of various ancient cultures in 3e.
I can attest to this fact from experience. (Hate to do this again, but here goes) Anyhow, I play WoW, and am a fairly active player in ti. With their last expansion, they went for the 'High Fantasy' element. Floating motes of land, Humungeous Mushroom Swamps, Crystal edifices with arcing electrical effects. All looked 'cool' (in the WOTC vernaculer) and 'Awesome' (to borrow from a FIOS ad) intially. Then, as the game progressed, it became more of a, 'oh look, floating land with water falling from it again'. Kind of a been there, done that sort of thing. I worry about this happening with the New Realms and its need to plop these tings down everywhere
-That also brings in Arymacocus (sp?) into mind. What what they have in store for it...?
-The world of Final Fantasy IV, V, VII, VII, XI and XII did not explode at any points during the game. That only happened in Final Fantasy VI.
The IV had originaly one world split in two that merge back.
Hey, that sounds like the Spellplague. Not even the Spellplague is original or creatively thought based on another thing.
-That also brings in Arymacocus (sp?) into mind. What what they have in store for it...?
Fungusland!!!
With Myconids, Fungusmen, and Mushroom-meanies!
What V-game was it that had the Mushroom Kingdom?
(No... I'm not talking about Mario here...)
Also, we really need a Hookah-smoking Caterpillar if we do the Giant Mushroom Forests. :D
Ya know, that would make a very weird yet somehow cool Dragon article - a nation of Fungusfolk based on the various types of Mushrooms in a class-system. Of course, if I write it, the Portabellos would be the Noble Caste.
Hmmmm... maybe something for the April issue...
EDIT:
I just found the one I was thinking of... talk about coming full circle! It was Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest. :D
Actually, Tolkien's Hobbit's didn;t make it. River rafting, swamp living, Halflings did.
The 4e halflings (hell, the 3rd ed ones too) bear little resemblance to Hobbits (which is a problem I have with them. I prefer the Hobbit-like halflings of 1st and 2nd Ed)
Interestingly, the 3e gnomes resemble traditional hobbits much more than 3e halflings (or 4e halflings for that matter). I'm sorry for all the gnome players who either have to retcon the race of their character or change the 4e gnome back. I wonder why there seems to be no need to fill this niche. But maybe it's too classical and therefore not cool enough to be "psyched" or "stoked" about.
DB
The IV had originaly one world split in two that merge back.
-No it didn't. Final Fantasy IV had a surface, an Underdark, and the Moon. No world shattering, like in Final Fantasy VI.
What V-game was it that had the Mushroom Kingdom?
(No... I'm not talking about Mario here...)
-Secret of Mana. It had the 'Fungi Kingdom'.
I know that at least one FF had a world that was split in two. Where the Big Crystals were breaking and each shard gave you a different class you could switch to. And when the 4 Crystals of both worlds broke then the worlds separated by them merged together again.
-That was Final Fantasy V. There were two sepeate worlds, that, towards the end, overlapped.
-That was Final Fantasy V. There were two sepeate worlds, that, towards the end, overlapped.
Right, I couldn't remember the number, tnks.
If your players see floating cities every 5 minutes, there effect lessons with every use.
However if a single floating city turns up in your campien and your players get told, now you got to figure how to break into it suckers! Then it does have a serous effect.
Same with things like tiefling, one tiefling or two showing up in a campien and the players will be impressed, have a entier race of them and the effect become more "oh another tiefling".
Same with member of races that are vastly diffrent from the norm, don't over use it.
Which weird stuff remember
Single is good, consistent is bad.
-It certainly backfires when it begins to feel cliche. Before the actual sourcebook is even published, even worse. Like RSEs, and the resurrection of various ancient cultures in 3e.
Yep, overexposure yields diminishing returns.
RSEs and resurfaced cities make me YAWN now.
What V-game was it that had the Mushroom Kingdom?
(No... I'm not talking about Mario here...)
But...that's the one!
Yep, overexposure yields diminishing returns.
-How eloquent.
But...that's the one!
-Bad!
-How eloquent.
Well, thank you.
-Bad!
No, GOOD!
Those cutscenes gave me priceless advice such as:
"If you need instructions on how to get through the hotels, check out the enclosed instruction book."
And
"All toasters toast toast!"
"All toasters toast toast!"
-And, if you have a toaster oven? Or if you put bagels in the toaster, as I often do? Then what?
-And, if you have a toaster oven? Or if you put bagels in the toaster, as I often do? Then what?
Sadly, I don't have Mario's expertise regarding toasters. You'll have to ask him yourself.
Sadly, I don't have Mario's expertise regarding toasters. You'll have to ask him yourself.
-I'll check the enclosed instruction book.
-I'll check the enclosed instruction book.
Good idea.
There also was a 'Cloud Kingdom' that existed in the air south of Netheril, above Old Thaeravel. I don't know if 'chunks of floating earth' were involved, but the Storm and Cloud Giants had a way of solidifying the Clouds themselves, and many aerial races, including dragons, were part of the Kingdom.
Anyway, if some of these earth motes contain cities, will the cities have sewers and tunnels below them, and if so, will it be possible to climb all the way down and out the other side?
And if thats the case, what are the chances we can find some random Jedi hanging to the bottom, off an old TV antena? :D
Anyway, if some of this earth motes cantain cities, will the cities have sewers and tunnels below them, and if so, will it be possible to climb all the way down and out the other side?
What concerns me is where the crap is going to go.
And if thats the case, what are the chances we can find some random Jedi hanging to the bottom, off an old TV antena? :D
Obviously most of this floating Motes will have wilderness on them, but some will have castles, and others may even have cities (Big whoop... Netheril all over again).
-I'm still wondering what the hell a 'cavemote' is. Floating chunks of rocks in a cave? A floating chunk of rock in the sky with a hole in it?
:OMG! check wine sack make sure its ok
yes indeed, a very interesting question Lord Kraus.
Lord Kraus? I never knew LK was German :D
DB
Lord Kraus? I never knew LK was German :D
DB
-Partially Austrian; close enough. ;)
I know they did vivisectionist experiments on off-worlders, enslaved the Gnomes, and tried to commit Genocide on the Orcs, but I never realized just how much like Nazis they were.
So from now on, I'll just say jawohl (ya' vol), Herr Kraus, instead of yes, Lord Karsus. :P
So from now on, I'll just say jawohl (ya' vol), Herr Kraus, instead of yes, Lord Karsus. :P
Almost right, but not quite. Ya-VOLE
DB
They probably never aired that show in Deutschland, because it might just insight another WW...
Considering I learned most of my German from Hogan's Heroes, I thought I did pretty good. :P
They probably never aired that show in Deutschland, because it might just insight another WW...
Unfortunatly, the show was shown here, taking up much needed airtime for better series...
Did they really think that protraying the German people as idiots would go over big?
The show was barely tolerable here.
... oops :embarrass
What concerns me is where the crap is going to go.
I was wondering if anyone else had a toilet humor moment reading 'floating clods of earth.' If they describe them as swirling around, it'll be even funner.
I was wondering if anyone else had a toilet humor moment reading 'floating clods of earth.' If they describe them as swirling around, it'll be even funner.
-I can't believe I glossed over that. Good find.
You have to be kidding me.
Did they really think that protraying the German people as idiots would go over big?
The show was barely tolerable here.
Well, we're not so humorless as the world thinks we are. We actually can laugh about ourselves. ;)
Well, we're not so humorless as the world thinks we are. We actually can laugh about ourselves. ;)
If we couldn't, how would one explain our current chancellor? ;)
DB
Well... thats good to know. :D
DB
everyone's gotta have soome 'down time'. :D
I frequent two play-by-post sites and haven't noticed this at all.
Do you have any sites you're willing to share. It looks pretty dry for FR games where I frequent.
-What a wacky place.
That's what Europeans think of the States! A Country founded by prudes ;)
Maybe if your women kept their shirts on, us Puritans wouldn't have had to leave. :P
Now be nice, or I'll dump some more of your tea in the harbor. :D
If we couldn't, how would one explain our current chancellor? ;)
DB
Eh, I'm certainly no conservative, but Kohl was way more funny than she is. Even if the humor got more and more cynical in his latter days...
Prudes?!
Would "religious wackos" be better? :D
Now be nice, or I'll dump some more of your tea in the harbor. :D
You do that. That way, there's more left for us.
Do you have any sites you're willing to share. It looks pretty dry for FR games where I frequent.
-Apparently not.
Prudes?!
Maybe if your women kept their shirts on, us Puritans wouldn't have had to leave. :P
Now be nice, or I'll dump some more of your tea in the harbor. :D
Not the tea!!!
When Britain rules the world again, there will be extra tax on tea in Boston. And salt added. Also, what kind of uncivilised brute dumps tea in salt water! Utterly barbaric! ;p
Not the tea!!!
When Britain rules the world again, there will be extra tax on tea in Boston. And salt added. Also, what kind of uncivilised brute dumps tea in salt water! Utterly barbaric! ;p
To quote the great John Rhys-Davies...'The Sun Never Sets on the British Empire because God doesn't trust the British in the Dark"
To quote Family Guy, Mel Gibson's new movie is -
"About a British guy fighting the British to save Britain form the British". :D
Forget the tea... just execute 'Mr. Bean' and we'll call it even. ;)
-Apparently not.
Maybe you should let me answer that.
www.dndonlinegames.com and www.myth-weavers.com
Maybe you should let me answer that.
-And, it's about time.
Not the tea!!!
When Britain rules the world again, there will be extra tax on tea in Boston. And salt added. Also, what kind of uncivilised brute dumps tea in salt water! Utterly barbaric! ;p
Tibetians and Nepalese drink their tea with salt and yak butter. So there.
Other popular additives to tea include sugar or honey, lemon, and fruit jams. In colder regions such as Mongolia, Tibet and Nepal, butter is added to provide necessary calories. Tibetan butter tea contains rock salt and dre (yak) butter, which is then churned vigorously in a cylindrical vessel closely resembling a butter churn. The flavour of this beverage is more akin to a rich broth than to tea, and may be described as an acquired taste to those unused to drinking it. The same may be said for salt tea, which is consumed in some cultures in the Hindu-Kush region of northern Pakistan, and probably in other areas as well.
The flavour of the tea can also be altered by pouring it from different heights, resulting in varying degrees of oxidisation. This high-altitude pouring is used principally by people in Northern Africa (e.g. Morocco, Mali, ...) and serves to positively alter the flavour of the tea. In certain cultures the tea is given different names depending on the height it was poured form, e.g. in Mali, when depending on the amount of oxidation done the tea is called respectively "la vie", "l'amour", "la mort" (french for "life","love","death").
In Southeast Asia, particularly in Malaysia and Singapore, the practice of pouring tea from a height has been refined further using black tea to which milk and usually sugar has been added, being poured from a height from one cup to another several times in alternating fashion and in quick succession, to create a tea with entrapped air bubbles creating a frothy "head" in the cup. Expert practitioners of this skill, usually in community hawker food stalls, are a pleasure to watch, a kind of street performance art that adds to the enjoyment of the drink. This beverage, "teh tarik", literally, "pulled tea", has a rather creamier taste than flat milk tea and is extremely popular in the region.
-And, it's about time.
WTH is your problem? Did it occur to you that I hadn't actually read Dark Wizard's post until yesterday?
Tibetians and Nepalese drink their tea with salt and yak butter. So there.
You trying to teach a Brit how to drink his tea!? Personally, i have it black, but can have milk in my darjeeling. Not always though, but without it can be like a kick to the face.
And Mr. Bean, aka Rowan Atkinson, is a great man! Watch Blackadder Goes Forth;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xTm7Z_6Dcs
WTH is your problem? Did it occur to you that I hadn't actually read Dark Wizard's post until yesterday?
Oooh. I wouldn't let him bother you. He is from NY. Attitude is part of the package. He probably doesn't even know he's doing it. ;)
Oooh. I wouldn't let him bother you. He is from NY. Attitude is part of the package. He probably doesn't even know he's doing it. ;)
-No, I did not. But, I respond in turn, so.
btw...ne1 have a way to contact R. A. Salvatore? i gotta ask him something
...its supposed to take place approx 300 years after Time of Troubles...
-About 100 years, not 300 years.
btw...ne1 have a way to contact R. A. Salvatore? i gotta ask him something
-Go to his website, and his message boards.
Oooh. I wouldn't let him bother you. He is from NY. Attitude is part of the package. He probably doesn't even know he's doing it. ;)
Don't go there...
Some of us are here to help (even if we HATE 4e FR). ;)
Thought better of it....
I think my forum 'persona' has become True Neutral
just like everything else that 4e has corrupted. :P
its supposed to take place approx 300 years after Time of Troubles...
I suspect he was talking about his own story there LK, not the Spellplague.
And just for the hells of it,
DIE 4E DIE!!!
:D
DIE $E DIE!!!!
If a 13 year old person can understand the realms this means that Developers are really stupid.
Maybe you should let me answer that.
www.dndonlinegames.com and www.myth-weavers.com
Thanks, Mula. I know of the latter, but not of the former. I will look into it.
DIE 4E DIE!!!
Oh Geeeez...
Not you too...
I'm surrounded by fanatics. :P
I'm pretty ambivalent towards it actually, though I'm fairly sure its not going to receive much of my hard earned money since I don't like most of what I'm hearing... I can ignore it much the same way I ignore most of Eberron. SW Saga has pretty much captured most of my attention for the time being.
It makes the intelligent opponents of 4E (in my case, 4E FR) look like idiots.
-Let's not start that DIE $e DIE again. Please?
I did it to blow some steam, I had a nervous stomach attack yesterday and needed to relax.
You trying to teach a Brit how to drink his tea!? Personally, i have it black, but can have milk in my darjeeling. Not always though, but without it can be like a kick to the face.
What? Darjeeling is one of the mildest black teas around.
Try an Assam or an "Ostfriesen" blend for once. That's strong.
Whimp. ;)
And Mr. Bean, aka Rowan Atkinson, is a great man! Watch Blackadder Goes Forth;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xTm7Z_6Dcs
QFT
Agreed.
It makes the intelligent opponents of 4E (in my case, 4E FR) look like idiots.
-Indeed. That's what I dislike about so many of the critics of 4e Forgotten Realms. 'A', they often blur the lines between 4e itself, and 4e Forgotten Realms, and 'B', they are often so goofy that they discredit other people who are a bit more concise.
What? Darjeeling is one of the mildest black teas around.
Try an Assam or an "Ostfriesen" blend for once. That's strong.
Whimp. ;)
i'll have to try that, but you get lots of different strength darjeeling, just depends on the brand. Had one that was like being kicked in the teeth, another that was hardly stronger than a bitter normal breakfast tea. Had 5 cuppas yesterday between 19 and 23, ended up not getting to sleep until 3:30 ;p
Mmmmmm....
And Mr. Bean, aka Rowan Atkinson, is a great man! Watch Blackadder Goes Forth;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xTm7Z_6Dcs
If that is an example of his 'best work', then I just don't 'get it'. As Mr. Bean, he doesn't speak, and the character he portrayed in that short said about 10 words...
The other guy, however, was hilarious.... ;)
On Topic: Someone over at Candlekeep referred to 4th edition as FR X-treme, and I thought it was a rather clever way to put it.
All marketing hype with very little sudstance.
"They just blew Halruaa up! Awesome!"
All we need now are drive-bys where we can shoot out peasant's Kneecaps with a longbow.
Earl Gray with Cream and Honey...
Mmmmmm....
If that is an example of his 'best work', then I just don't 'get it'. As Mr. Bean, he doesn't speak, and the character he portrayed in that short said about 10 words...
The other guy, however, was hilarious.... ;)
On Topic: Someone over at Candlekeep referred to 4th edition as FR X-treme, and I thought it was a rather clever way to put it.
All marketing hype with very little sudstance.
"They just blew Halruaa up! Awesome!"
All we need now are drive-bys where we can shoot out peasant's Kneecaps with a longbow.
That was from Blackadder Goes Forth, there are a lot more laughs in that scene if you watch the whole episode. Was never really one for Mr. Bean myself, more of a Blackadder man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntdmf82nVfQ
That's Darling and Blackadder, Blackadder's trying to uncover a German spy in the hospital=)
Drow ninja/pirates in shadow dragon driven carts firing hand-crossbows!
Undead Drow ninja shadow-pirates in half-fiend shadow dragon pulled Skyships firing hand-crossbows with 16 round clips!
Corrected. ;)
If that is an example of his 'best work', then I just don't 'get it'. As Mr. Bean, he doesn't speak, and the character he portrayed in that short said about 10 words...
Try this one, then. These aren't exactly my favorite scenes, but they should give you a good enough impression of Lord Blackadder (courtesy of Blackadder II, the best Blackadder of the whole bunch).
DB
The only thing we ever see of him in the States are the 'Bean' movies. Don't know why they keep bringing them over, I don't know anyone who goes to see them...
Reminds me of slapstick I love Lucy comedy, which was great for its day, but comedy has become so much more cerbral now.
Now Canadian Comedy I like - that David Armand (The Hollow Men) cracks me up. If you like British Comedy, you should love this -
Man in a dress, or Train Noire :D
-About 100 years, not 300 years.
im talking about the book that i'm writing
Now, to get back on topic, the New Realms is a travesty
im talking about the book that i'm writing
-Yes, Stigger already mentioned that.
until a new deity rose to control whatever new system of magic replaced the Weave (remember, Mystra IS the Weave; for her to be destroyed “beyond re-creation,” Azuth and all of Mystra’s Chosen, in whom parts of her power reside, would have to be destroyed, too), magic would be wild or simply wouldn’t work. Probably magic items would do SOMETHING when their stored powers were unleashed, but not function as their wielders expected them to (and not under any precise control or exhibiting any consistency of effects).
It’s doubtful if most spell-using beings would survive such a cataclysm. None of them would survive it unchanged, to be sure. Nor would the Shadow Weave just ‘step in and take over’ if Mystra were destroyed utterly, because the Shadow Weave depends on the Weave; without the one, the other (which opposes it, and is ‘balanced’ to do so) will inevitably collapse too.
So the gods who remained would probably battle for control of magic, in a world in which all magic will have a governing tendency to ‘go wild.’ Farewell Realms as we know them, and so on.
The above was written by Ed Greenwood a while before this whole Spellplague thing came about (I got it thorugh a forum search). If nothing else says the Realms are gone, it is his final statement. After all, he is discussing what became the cause of this stupid Spellplague
The above was written by Ed Greenwood a while before this whole Spellplague thing came about (I got it thorugh a forum search). If nothing else says the Realms are gone, it is his final statement. After all, he is discussing what became the cause of this stupid Spellplague
-I saw that too, and chuckled.
Just for Dan... :P
:D
Intelligent discussion will win the day!!! :P
I suspect he was talking about his own story there LK, not the Spellplague.
btw im a she, not a he
maybe the realms could have been "repaired" from the damage caused in the spellplague? just a thought _________________________________________________________________
:fight!: RUN AWAY!!!
The new FR looks like what happens when you give a six year old a pair of scissors and glue, and then hand him about 20 books of Fantasy Art and ask him to put together the ones he likes.
Each picture looks fantastic on its own, but together they just look like a total mess.
btw im a she, not a he
My apologies then dear lady. ;)
Sorry... my bad.
Its just that many of us are seeing nothing but negative reactions in our local communities (I have two LGS's that are anti-4e), and yet others keep saying they hear good things.
I suppose its all a matter of geography, eh? ;)
On a side note - I'm developing some material for a Netbook, and I was wondering if you know of any good sites with Finnish Mytholgy (or Finno-Russian, even).
Thanks --- Mark
If you can find it I highly recommend
“Red Sails Tempests on the Steppes: D&D in the Dark Ages of Eastern Europe”
Which covers Slavic, Ugric (Finn, Ingrian, Estonian and Liiv) and Baltic pre Christian civilisations in D&D terms.
From Dragon December 2001 p 30 – 59
Following that on p 76 – 80 is “Cities of the Ages: Novgorod” Where they convert ancient Novgorod into a fantasy setting.
This is for only esoteric tastes, but if think you might like folk metal I would recommend the music CD Pērkoņkalve / Thunderforge by Skyforger.
http://www.skyforger.lv/
The lyrics are in Latvian, but they translate the lyrics into English along with information on the old gods on the insert.
You may also wish to do an internet search under the title “Romuva”
Now back to the regularly scheduled ranting on how Hasbro trashed a loved setting to churn out a new series of rule books.
BR,
SR
Don't suppose you've tried the bookstore for Finnish mythology Markus? The name isn't coming to mind offhand, but I seem to recall a fairly hefty saga that covered most of the heroic stuff... pity KtM isn't around, he might remember the name.
I think what you are thinking of is "Kalevala".
I just typed it into Amazon and got 3 pages of hits.
BR,
SR
So... yeah, that should help MT out some then. :D
Kalevipoeg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalevipoeg
The origional AD&D Dieties and Demigods had the Finnish pantheon.
BR,
SR
From Dragon December 2001 p 30 – 59.
Thanks for pointing me to that!
It will prove extremely helpful for some of the stuff I'm doing on the Raumviran of the Endless Wastes.
I was going to tie the Kalmyk to Kalevala (it just seemed to fit linguisticly), but now I'm going a completely different way with the Kalmyk culture (Oriental Hobgoblins).
That doesn't really effect anything, aside form 'cooling up' a rather drab historical note. The Raumviran remain unaffected and are still FR's version of the proto-Russian culture.
Ah, that's right... I'd forgotten about Deities & Demi's. Haven't looked at that book in years though... the art in it kind of bugged me. Was never a fan of the 70's D&D art though.
I crack that book open at least once a day - I wish I could get a new copy, mines falling apart.
Not the most accurate source in the world, but still very cool all the same. I just used Ma Yuan, the assasin of the Gods, for something the other day.
I had an ancestor named Rotike who I understand was origionally from Eesti. if you get a chance go visit your the land of your mothers. Although with the US peso where it is at I could understand waiting.
Nagemist,
SR
Though my copy's still in very good condition. :P
(apart from a bit of grafitti on the inner covers from a friend of mine who was broken of that habit most painfully by a smack from a metal ruler.)
I have most of them going back to #45, and those that I am missing I have in PDFs, except for a couple of the annuals.
I have most of them going back to #45, and those that I am missing I have in PDFs, except for a couple of the annuals.
-Do you happen to have the Monsterous Ecologies Compendium thing? I was thinking about maybe buying it, but I can't find any reviews anywhere.
Are you talking about those three books, the Monstrous Arcana?
There was the Illithiad, I, Tyrant, and another on Sahuagins (The Sea Devils?)
If they did a book with all of the Monstrous Ecologies articles put together, then I am completely unaware of it.
Are you talking about those three books, the Monstrous Arcana?
-No.
If they did a book with all of the Monstrous Ecologies articles put together, then I am completely unaware of it.
-Yes, yes they did. None of the reviews I've read for it were very helpful, though.
If they did a book with all of the Monstrous Ecologies articles put together, then I am completely unaware of it.
-Yes, yes they did. None of the reviews I've read for it were very helpful, though.
Do you have its ISBN or full title or something? Maybe one of us can find out something more about it.
-I've read a few reviews of it, but I don't think they were very helpful, or particularly informative. I still don't know if the ones listed on the Paizo website are the only creatures, or if that "But that's not all" means more ecologies/features, or the second set of articles described.
Though I'll definitely agree that there isn't much on it out there... might have to make a trip down to my LGS to see it for myself, assuming they have one.
Why?
Because the very next line says "As if a dozen and a half ecologies weren't enough", and the ones they named add up to EXACTLY 18!
I believe the "But that's not all" part refers to the 'reflective looks' by Gygax and others.
Reading 'between the lines' is sort of my specialty. ;)
I believe the "But that's not all" part refers to the 'reflective looks' by Gygax and others.
-I wasn't sure. And, even still, are those "reflective looks" any good. Do they provide any insight, etc.? And, what monsters suck!? Inquiring minds want to know! :P
-For the kind of book it is, I am very surprised it recieved so little attention.
-Hmm...What is this "Practical Guide to Monsters" you speak of...?
I thought they were a bit 'kiddish', but still cool none-the-less.
Still... like I said... they looked pretty cool. In case you guys haven't noticed, I'm really big on 'illustrating' my points. When I can find books like that for use in my games I think its great.
Why discribe something, when you can open a book and say "you see THIS!" :D
True, they are kids books (I said that actually), but considering how literate the average person who can actually read in the Realms probably is, at least compared to modern standards of literacy, I thought it was appropriate for adventurers. ;)
-The average "RPG person" is probably a bit more literate than the average person. That'd frustrate me (a little) as a player. That'd certainly be "in character", though.
Of course, that realization didn't come until I had read the book 4-5 times. Plus, if Mystra and all other gods of magic had died, how could magic have been functional?Still, 4E is only going up to 100 years after Time of Troubles, correct? If so, then all damaged cities and such could be rebuilt 200 years after the Spellplague (the time in which my book takes place).
If anyone wants a rough copy of the prologue to critique, PM me. I won't hesitate to send you one. ;)
Turning 14 this August, will have to wait about 4 years to get it published (if WotC will publish it!).
-The average "RPG person" is probably a bit more literate than the average person. That'd frustrate me (a little) as a player. That'd certainly be "in character", though.
I was actually referring to a person living in the Realms, not a person playing in it... in case that wasn't clear. Need more coffee now...
Still, 4E is only going up to 100 years after Time of Troubles, correct?
-About 100 years after the current date, 1375 DR, not the Time of Troubles.
I was actually referring to a person living in the Realms, not a person playing in it... in case that wasn't clear. Need more coffee now...
-Yes, I got that, hence the "in character" part that I edited in there.
Should have had the coffee beforehand I guess then... :D
-It's usually more effective when used like that.
Dunno... some of my wife's coffee I just have to sniff and I'm wired for a few hours.
-Is it Colombian? 'Cause, if that's the case, it might not be the coffee doing that...;)
As to being a trafficking point, that's kinda hard to avoid given the geography and its proximity to Panama... where in the region isn't really? Kinda like Florida that way really.
Jurrasic Park? Not really familiar what that's a reference to (never read the book or saw the movies) to be honest...
-Both are good, and I'd recommend either.
As to being a trafficking point, that's kinda hard to avoid given the geography and its proximity to Panama... where in the region isn't really? Kinda like Florida that way really.
-Because of the rampant corruption in Latin American states, the relative poverty of the people and the governments, Latin America's relative proxemity to both the U.S. Southwest, the Carribbean, and Florida, and the strength of the South and Latin American drug cartels, no Latin American state can avoid being a trafficking point of drugs, people, and other things.
...they're the first country in the world to disband their army, and like LK said, Jurassic Park was built there, so i like 'em!
-Heh...Not a good combination, methinks.
-No, but the Costa Rican government allowed Jurrasic Park to be built on their soil. Never forget that...That said, Costa Rica is a trafficking point from South America, to the U.S., like most other Latin American states.
The Costa Rican government also slashes rainforest to raise beef, which destroys the entire Costa Rican ecosystem. This is one of the reasons why we have global warming. Because people don't understand that if you cut down the rainforests, that temperature has to go somewhere.
-Heh...Not a good combination, methinks.
tru'dat, but if your off the radar I guess you can do it. I bet if Costa Rica suddenly found itself sitting on the world's largest oil resrve that army would spring right back up in record fashion.
The Costa Rican government also slashes rainforest to raise beef, which destroys the entire Costa Rican ecosystem. This is one of the reasons why we have global warming. Because people don't understand that if you cut down the rainforests, that temperature has to go somewhere.
I've read just today that a 1500 square kilometer piece of ice in Antartica is separating itself from the main continent. It's part of a section of the ice that 1500 years old.
The Costa Rican government also slashes rainforest to raise beef, which destroys the entire Costa Rican ecosystem. This is one of the reasons why we have global warming. Because people don't understand that if you cut down the rainforests, that temperature has to go somewhere.
Thats gonna happen wherever humans reside, cause you know, we invented money.
tru'dat, but if your off the radar I guess you can do it.
-It was a joke. Having an island full of dinosaurs, and not having an army to fight said dinosaurs when they inevitably escape is not condusive to survival.
The Costa Rican government also slashes rainforest to raise beef, which destroys the entire Costa Rican ecosystem. This is one of the reasons why we have global warming. Because people don't understand that if you cut down the rainforests, that temperature has to go somewhere.
and together with a select few countries (Norway, iceland, Netherlands and Denmark) it's one of the nations that doesn't significantly violate the human rights.
And they've got a pretty well-armed police force, i think. But riot police vs. T. Rex would rock.
Hey... T. Rex mounted ogre cavalry!?
Hey... T. Rex mounted ogre cavalry!?
-Doesn't one setting have something like that? Eberron, maybe? Or Darksun?
-Doesn't one setting have something like that? Eberron, maybe? Or Darksun?
Eberron's got raptor mounted halfling cavalry or something. And Menzo's got lizard mounted cavalry. But T. REX (or substitute with a carnosaur) mounted ogres are gonna be awesome!
Eberron's got raptor mounted halfling cavalry or something.
-Yeah, that's what I was thinking. That's probably the closest there is.
Eberron's got raptor mounted halfling cavalry or something. And Menzo's got lizard mounted cavalry. But T. REX (or substitute with a carnosaur) mounted ogres are gonna be awesome!
SPELLPLAGUE! :D
Warhammer Dark Elves ride Dinosaurs. ;)
I've read just today that a 1500 square kilometer piece of ice in Antartica is separating itself from the main continent. It's part of a section of the ice that 1500 years old.
I hope it slams into a s__tload of oil refineries.
I hope it slams into a s__tload of oil refineries.
-You deserve a *punch* for that. You want gas prices to go up even more!? As it is now, I go through about $30-35 bucks every two weeks or so. And, my car only holds about ten gallons...
Yea, gas prices stink
And Ogres on T-Rex's would be cool, though, I think Triceratops might make better mounts, and have a built in shield for the rider too
Hey... I know how to steer this back on topic...
The Spellplague cause a HUGE chunk of the Great Glacier to slough-off and slide across Vassa and Damara, literally erasing whatever was there. Then, whatever strange creatures were frozen beneath the icecap can awaken and move right in.
Talk about your Spellplague-ready 4e modifications....
Oh! And Ice Trolls! Lots and lots of Ice Trolls! (hence bringing my Bush comment full circle). ;)
Gas Prices can keep going up all they want. I don't own a car, and if they continue to rise, it will cause more people to use mass transit and carpool, thus saving the environment from even more damage. Plus it just may cause the American Gov't to come up with some initiatives to develop other sources of power (but not as long as that greedy troll Bush is in office).
Hey... I know how to steer this back on topic...
The Spellplague cause a HUGE chunk of the Great Glacier to slough-off and slide across Vassa and Damara, literally erasing whatever was there. Then, whatever strange creatures were frozen beneath the icecap can awaken and move right in.
Talk about your Spellplague-ready 4e modifications....
Oh! And Ice Trolls! Lots and lots of Ice Trolls! (hence bringing my Bush comment full circle). ;)
No, no. You got it all wrong. The chunk of Ice sloughs off, but falls through a planar rift to Abeir, swapping places with its counterpart on the other world, bringing the Icasi Empire to Toril (The Icasi being a new race in PHB II. A race of Ice Dwarves who made deals with outherworldly powers and are now merged with Ice-Para-elementals) Oh, and the Ice in the Icasi Empire is Orange and chunks of it float in the air for no reason at all other than floating chunks of things are cool!
Awesome, right? (Cue Michale Bay exploding something)
and together with a select few countries (Norway, iceland, Netherlands and Denmark) it's one of the nations that doesn't significantly violate the human rights.
And they've got a pretty well-armed police force, i think. But riot police vs. T. Rex would rock.
Hey... T. Rex mounted ogre cavalry!?
Frost Giants mounted on Frosttouched Battletitans.
Yes. I ran this for a group. They HATED it.
Warhammer Dark Elves ride Dinosaurs. ;)
They're mentioned in WotSQ, i think.
But you Americans... we Brits pay twice as much for petrol as you do, so quit your whining! ;p
Warhammer Dark Elves ride Dinosaurs. ;)
I thought drow rode on subterranean lizards???
Where do dinosaurs come into play? Dinos are extinct...aren't they? Damn has this on gone OFF TOPIC :D
-What do you expect in a thread that doesn't have much concrete basis to begin with, and has gone over 80 pages?
Gas Prices can keep going up all they want. I don't own a car, and if they continue to rise, it will cause more people to use mass transit and carpool, thus saving the environment from even more damage.
-Uh, you do relize that oil prices effect everything else, right? The farmer has to pay more money to harvest his wheat, and ship it to the cereal factories, so your cereal prices go up. Certain plastics are petroleum based, so next time you go to the store, and CD costs go up, don't complain. And, of course, the next time you notice that the price of say, valasine, has skyrocketed, to the point where it's cheaper to simply suffer with your burn, and/or chapped lips, don't complain.
-You're a silly person, MT. Must be that Long Island air, or something...
Plus it just may cause the American Gov't to come up with some initiatives to develop other sources of power (but not as long as that greedy troll Bush is in office).
-Funny that, how President Bush has been the only president thus far who's actually put some actual effort and committment into researching and developing alternatives to petroleum.
But you Americans... we Brits pay twice as much for petrol as you do, so quit your whining! ;p
-Yeah, and that's what happens when you have such a high taxation rate. Of course, you also get standardized healthcare, huge discounts off of higher education (3000 Pounds a year!), and other things that come with your type of governance, that we don't. So, it offsets things. Your currency is also worth a bit more than ours right now.
I thought drow rode on subterranean lizards???
Not in Chult, there are dinosaurs there. And drow do ride subterranean lizard, he was talking about warhammer dark elves, which aren't the same.
As for American cars... Skip to about 0:45. Really, really funny, especially if you've got a British sense of humour
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCisjSMia6E&feature=related
I thought drow rode on subterranean lizards???
Like I said - Warhammer Dark Elves ride Dinos -
They called them "Cold Ones", and the Lizard Men ride them as well.
Lot of great fluff in WH, too bad its not D20.
They called them "Cold Ones", and the Lizard Men ride them as well.
-Lizard Men riding dinosaurs...Isn't that like Humans mounting (as in riding!) a monkey? Or a parrot eating chicken?
And, of course, the next time you notice that the price of say, valasine, has skyrocketed, to the point where it's cheaper to simply suffer with your burn, and/or chapped lips, don't complain.
Vaseline is a wonder product, don't want the price to rise on that!
And prices for a lot of cosmetics would probably go up, too.
Vaseline is a wonder product, don't want the price to rise on that!
I avoid petroleum products whenever possible (which isn't easy in this day and age).
As an aside, I was watching the news yesterday, and it appears countries in Malaysia(?) do not like the new 'incentives' most countries are going for, using grain and sugar products to poduce fuel alternatives...
Because it is driving up the food prices, and causing widespread starvation!
Talk about your glass being half-empty. Your damned if you do, and damned if you don't. They need to build humongous (miles wides) solar panels in space, and 'beam' the energy back to earth. Tesla gave us the technology a hundred years ago, and Asimov gave us the idea half a century ago. except for the ever-exploding Spaceshuttles, I can't see any reason (other then greed) why this is not being carried out. If the Gov'ts of the world got thei s__t together, the people of Earth can have a limitless, eternal power source.
Hey the 'Sunlight' Power Source! That must be what Aumanator's Clerics will be using in 4e.
Also, about Lizrdmen riding Dinos - completely different genus. Lizards are reptiles and therefore cold-blooded. Dino's are Sauroids, and are warm-blooded.
You see, thats why I figured out the Sarrukh's power doesn't work on themselves or dragons. It only works on cold-blooded scaley creatures. ;)
Not canon, but I needed a logical reason for it, and hate the fact that the rules state 'it just doesn't'. It may be a fantasy game, but I still insist on consistency and logic.
Vaseline is a wonder product, don't want the price to rise on that!
-Indeed.
And prices for a lot of cosmetics would probably go up, too.
-If not because of the materials themselves, transportation prices will rise, and by proxy, costs of the products themselves.
-Is it something I said? She said? Huh?
Yes, I do not use Vaseline... perhaps you got me confused with GD.
-Uh...Okay?
As an aside, I was watching the news yesterday, and it appears countries in Malaysia(?) do not like the new 'incentives' most countries are going for, using grain and sugar products to poduce fuel alternatives...
Because it is driving up the food prices, and causing widespread starvation!
-Of course. You have 100 barrels of corn. It takes 100 barrels of corn to feed your people for the year. When suddenly you start using 10 barrels of corn to produce fuels, you are now 10 barrels of corn short of feeding your people.
Talk about your glass being half-empty. Your damned if you do, and damned if you don't. They need to build humongous (miles wides) solar panels in space, and 'beam' the energy back to earth. Tesla gave us the technology a hundred years ago, and Asimov gave us the idea half a century ago. except for the ever-exploding Spaceshuttles, I can't see any reason (other then greed) why this is not being carried out. If the Gov'ts of the world got thei s__t together, the people of Earth can have a limitless, eternal power source.
-Too many bugs in such a concept, and it's an extremely expensive experiment to test out, should it fail. And, of course, there is the chance for massive destruction. In the PC version of Sim City 2000, one of my favorite disasters to create, when I was not interested in playing anymore, was to cause a satallite in space to beam down a misfired mircrowave beam, toasting the area it hit, causing widespread fire and readioactivity. Now, tell me: Do you want something like that to happen in your neighborhood?
Also, about Lizrdmen riding Dinos - completely different genus. Lizards are reptiles and therefore cold-blooded. Dino's are Sauroids, and are warm-blooded.
Not canon, but I needed a logical reason for it, and hate the fact that the rules state 'it just doesn't'. It may be a fantasy game, but I still insist on consistency and logic.
-Canon contradicts this. In the Finder's Stone trilogy, cold spells are used on Saurials, because they are cold blooded. Thus, Saurials are cold blooded. Dinosaurs, extrapolating from this, would be cold blooded, too.
-Now, tell me: Do you want something like that to happen in your neighborhood?
ABSOLUTELY!!!
I hate my neighbors. :P
-Canon contradicts this. In the Finder's Stone trilogy, cold spells are used on Saurials, because they are cold blooded. Thus, Saurials are cold blooded. Dinosaurs, extrapolating from this, would be cold blooded, too.
Canon is WRONG.
The designers/authors need to start taking courses in the hard sciences. They insist on making up rules for the world - a world they know NOTHING about!
I suppose that FR dinosaurs could be different then RW ones, but thats just causing complexity for complexity's sake.
I'm dioing the Lacerials - Malatra's Saurials - for the kara-Tur project, and I can tell you they WILL be warm-blooded. If people want to say the the ones that left (Saurials) tens of thousands of years ago evolved (Devolved?) into cold-blooded versions, then thats fine, but all current evidence about Dinosaurs points to them being warm-blooded.
Edit:
A more specific scientific discovery regarding this.
ABSOLUTELY!!!
I hate my neighbors. :P
-Your property values would go down, if your neighborhood is irradiated, and you somehow survive. That said, I'm sure people will be looking to rebuild, somewhere, so business might boom suddenly (no pun intended).
Canon is WRONG.
The designers/authors need to start taking courses in the hard sciences. They insist on making up rules for the world - a world they know NOTHING about!
I suppose that FR dinosaurs could be different then RW ones, but thats just causing complexity for complexity's sake.
-To paraphrase Dan, you can't apply real world concepts to this fantasy world, and expect them to behave as they do here.
--If not because of the materials themselves, transportation prices will rise, and by proxy, costs of the products themselves.
Indeed, although a lot of cosmetics use ingredients derived from petroleum, such as the aforementioned Vaseline (petrolatum) and mineral oil.
-Is it something I said? She said? Huh?
They are thinking of Vaseline as used for risque purposes.:P
But I called it a "wonder product" because it works nicely on very dry patches of skin (and burns, and cracked skin, and removal of some types of makeup).
Indeed, although a lot of cosmetics use ingredients derived from petroleum, such as the aforementioned Vaseline (petrolatum) and mineral oil.
-Right. I don't know what most of the stuff is made of, so...
They are thinking of Vaseline as used for risque purposes.:P
-Oh.
But I called it a "wonder product" because it works nicely on very dry patches of skin (and burns, and cracked skin, and removal of some types of makeup).
-Yeah. Last week (in the 40-50 degree, but sunny, weather, no less), my face got all sunburned from playing baseball outside for a few hours. The worst part of it was that my upper lip was chapped, for like, the first time ever in my life. It was so uncomfortable. Chapstick wasn't doing anything, although, the strawberry flavor smelled so nice. I put some vasaline on it, and, in like, two days, my lip was all better.
They are thinking of Vaseline as used for risque purposes.:P
But I called it a "wonder product" because it works nicely on very dry patches of skin (and burns, and cracked skin, and removal of some types of makeup).
in Norway, when we graduate, we wear strange hats with odd thingies you get for doing things in them. One of the things you can do is two guys walking giggling, hand-in-hand, into a shop and buy vaseline.
But honestly. Lubricant should be call lubrican. Makes more sense.
-Yeah. Last week (in the 40-50 degree, but sunny, weather, no less), my face got all sunburned from playing baseball outside for a few hours. The worst part of it was that my upper lip was chapped, for like, the first time ever in my life. It was so uncomfortable. Chapstick wasn't doing anything, although, the strawberry flavor smelled so nice. I put some vasaline on it, and, in like, two days, my lip was all better.
I'm glad to hear it. I would suggest, though, that you prevent such damage in the future with sunscreen.
There are lip balms you can buy with sunscreen too.
in Norway, when we graduate, we wear strange hats with odd thingies you get for doing things in them. One of the things you can do is two guys walking giggling, hand-in-hand, into a shop and buy vaseline.
That's funny.
Sunburn/excessive exposure can lead to Skin Cancer. Ergo, being a pasty-faced nerd-boy would, in this one instance, proves HEALTHIER then being a barbarian or a lumberjack, who spend all day out in the sun.
So, against forms of cellular degeneration, Mages should get the better fortitude saves.
Thus, proving LK correct as far as the automatic better fortitude for 'Outdoorsey' types over stay-at-homes.
You see how my mind works? I can never stop thinking about conudrums...
Now you got me thinking about the other thread, in a very strange, round-about way.
Sunburn/excessive exposure can lead to Skin Cancer. Ergo, being a pasty-faced nerd-boy would, in this one instance, proves HEALTHIER then being a barbarian or a lumberjack, who spoend all day out in the sun.
So, against forms of cellular degeneration, Mages should get the better fortitude saves.
Thus, proving LK correct as far as the automatic better fortitude for 'Outdoorsey' types over stay-at-homes.
You see how my mind works? I can never stop thinking about conudrums...
Indeed, people in fantasy worlds don't seem to know too much about skin protection.
in Norway, when we graduate, we wear strange hats with odd thingies you get for doing things in them. One of the things you can do is two guys walking giggling, hand-in-hand, into a shop and buy vaseline.
But honestly. Lubricant should be call lubrican. Makes more sense.
-I didn't understand most of that. I think that's a good thing. That said, your story is very innn....tresss...ting...
I'm glad to hear it. I would suggest, though, that you prevent such damage in the future with sunscreen.
-I didn't forsee such a thing happening...Who gets sunburned in March? I'm tellin' ya...
There are lip balms you can buy with sunscreen too.
-Yeah, the chapstick I have now is medicated, and is, like, SPF 15. Not very powerful, but...
Thus, proving LK correct as far as the automatic better fortitude for 'Outdoorsey' types over stay-at-homes.
-Of course I'm right!
I just knew you'd eat that up. :P
-Of course.
-I didn't forsee such a thing happening...Who gets sunburned in March? I'm tellin' ya...
The sun's rays are damaging no matter what time of year it is--personally, I wear sunscreen every day, and therefore I never get sunburned and hopefully I'm staving off future skin damage.
-Yeah, the chapstick I have now is medicated, and is, like, SPF 15. Not very powerful, but...
Check if it has UVA protection ingredients such as zinc oxide, titanium dioxide, or avobenzone. The UVA rays are the really bad ones that penetrate deep into the skin and can cause problems later (not the least of which is skin cancer). The UVB rays are the ones that cause a visible burn, though.
Yeah, I know a good deal about this subject, and you could say it's one of my pet causes.
Anyway I won't tell people what to do, but I do give them advice.The sun's rays are damaging no matter what time of year it is--personally, I wear sunscreen every day, and therefore I never get sunburned and hopefully I'm staving off future skin damage.
I spend most of my time indoors :D
The sun's rays are damaging no matter what time of year it is--
-I know. What I meant is: It's still pretty cold outside. Getting a sunburn, which is primarily associated with the summer, was the last thing on my mind.
-Primarily on my mind was that line-drive that smashed into my knee. When I see you tonight, I'll still probably be limping. It was like last week, but my knee is still red and bruised. I was 3 for 5 on the game, with a single, a double, and a triple, so, all my injuries aside, I am happy with all of that.
Yeah, I know a good deal about this subject, and you could say it's one of my pet causes.
-Knowledge is power. People would be stupid to ignore it, and throw it away.
-Knowledge is power. People would be stupid to ignore it, and throw it away.
That's why I read 4 different new sites from my country, to get the picture from different sides, and sometimes I also read NYT and other international new sites.
And with everything that is happening in Argentina during the last 2 weeks I always guessed right what'll happen every time one side acted, because I know what they think and what they do to impose their way of thinking.
Primarily on my mind was that line-drive that smashed into my knee. When I see you tonight, I'll still probably be limping. It was like last week, but my knee is still red and bruised. I was 3 for 5 on the game, with a single, a double, and a triple, so, all my injuries aside, I am happy with all of that.
Ouch! hobbies do have a way of dulling the pain (reminds me of the time I spained my knee while putting a new suspension in my car).
Indeed, people in fantasy worlds don't seem to know too much about skin protection.
We don't know much about that, though. All the PHB says is that barbarians don't read and write, not how developed their medicine and cosmetics are :P
-I know. What I meant is: It's still pretty cold outside. Getting a sunburn, which is primarily associated with the summer, was the last thing on my mind.
I understand.
But like I said, I can't help going into detail about this subject.-Primarily on my mind was that line-drive that smashed into my knee. When I see you tonight, I'll still probably be limping. It was like last week, but my knee is still red and bruised. I was 3 for 5 on the game, with a single, a double, and a triple, so, all my injuries aside, I am happy with all of that.
Check your email.;)
I'm so sorry you got such a bruise! Hope it feels better.
-Knowledge is power. People would be stupid to ignore it, and throw it away.
Indeed!
Check your email.;)
-Yeah, too late...
:embarrass I just started to read Lisa Smedman's The Lady Penitent series, and if you wish to understand what happens to the drow pantheon, read it. Prologues and codas are set in the "rift" between Eilistraee's realm and Lolth's realm. It's there they play their sava game with hundreds of thousands of pieces...I won't tell you what happens, of course. Go to the bookstore.
It's a pretty good series so far though. Picks up where War of the Spider Queen left off.So there's your explanation for the drow pantheon dropping down to two deities.
All in all, I know that WotC is just trying to advance the game a little bit. If anyone gets what I'm hinting at, it's that the Realms can't stay the same forever. But, with all due respect, having two disasters relative to the deities in Toril in the span of less than 200 years...don't you think that's a bit much? If they had made it about five hundred years, that'd be great...I don't have time everyday to update my D&D stuff so I go from the FR campaign setting. Of course, that won't be very acurate anymore.
Plus, with the coming of 4E, how are those of us who have 100+ D&D minis (for me that includes Drizzt Do'Urden [the one that came with Icingdeath], Bruenor Battlehammer, and all other rare pieces I have collected over the 4 or so years I have been playing) supposed to get the new stat cards? Will they be available for free download? If not, I won't be happy.
I hope people get my point. Not very often do I make a post this long on any forum.
Now to only wait the 5 months till all 4E is out and see if I get it as a birthday present
But, with all due respect, having two disasters relative to the deities in Toril in the span of less than 200 years...don't you think that's a bit much?
-No, not really. Two hundred years ago, electricity was not a common thing. People had outhouses, and child birth still killed women. Fast forward- two, world changing world wars later- and compare then to today.
-That said, not many people appreciate all of the RSEs in the last couple of years.
If they had made it about five hundred years, that'd be great...I don't have time everyday to update my D&D stuff so I go from the FR campaign setting.
-If that happened, then there would be fewer links to the current Forgotten Realms. The designers chose a 100 year jump to the timeline so that they could adjust and alter things at will, but leave the elements that "made money"- ie, Drizzt, for instance. In 500 years, Drizzt would be dead, and there could be no Drizzt novels.
Okay, all off-topics put aside here...
I just started to read Lisa Smedman's The Lady Penitent series, and if you wish to understand what happens to the drow pantheon, read it. Prologues and codas are set in the "rift" between Eilistraee's realm and Lolth's realm. It's there they play their sava game with hundreds of thousands of pieces...I won't tell you what happens, of course. Go to the bookstore.
So there's your explanation for the drow pantheon dropping down to two deities.
All in all, I know that WotC is just trying to advance the game a little bit. If anyone gets what I'm hinting at, it's that the Realms can't stay the same forever. But, with all due respect, having two disasters relative to the deities in Toril in the span of less than 200 years...don't you think that's a bit much? If they had made it about five hundred years, that'd be great...I don't have time everyday to update my D&D stuff so I go from the FR campaign setting. Of course, that won't be very acurate anymore.
Plus, with the coming of 4E, how are those of us who have 100+ D&D minis (for me that includes Drizzt Do'Urden [the one that came with Icingdeath], Bruenor Battlehammer, and all other rare pieces I have collected over the 4 or so years I have been playing) supposed to get the new stat cards? Will they be available for free download? If not, I won't be happy.
I hope people get my point. Not very often do I make a post this long on any forum.
Now to only wait the 5 months till all 4E is out and see if I get it as a birthday present
I agree with you. There have been far too many Realms shattering events (disasters, god killing, etc) in too short a time period.
Though in general, I do agree that the Realms have experienced far too many in recent years for my liking.
-Yeah, too late...
Okay, all off-topics put aside here...
I just started to read Lisa Smedman's The Lady Penitent series, and if you wish to understand what happens to the drow pantheon, read it. Prologues and codas are set in the "rift" between Eilistraee's realm and Lolth's realm. It's there they play their sava game with hundreds of thousands of pieces...I won't tell you what happens, of course. Go to the bookstore.
So there's your explanation for the drow pantheon dropping down to two deities.
Thanks, but with all due respect, a lot of us have read those novels and are already aware of the (mostly silly) events that take place therein.
All in all, I know that WotC is just trying to advance the game a little bit. If anyone gets what I'm hinting at, it's that the Realms can't stay the same forever. But, with all due respect, having two disasters relative to the deities in Toril in the span of less than 200 years...don't you think that's a bit much?
Yes (less than 30 years, actually).
- In 500 years, Drizzt would be dead, and there could be no Drizzt novels.
Knowing WotC, they'd probably bend over backwards to give Drizzt an in-story reason to still be alive.
Knowing WotC, they'd probably bend over backwards to give Drizzt an in-story reason to still be alive.
Like with Artemis?
Like with Artemis?
-Indeed, though Entreri's "transformation" took place in Realms of Shadow, which was written in April 2002, before the developments for 4e began. So, they weren't written to allow Entreri to survive the 100 year jump, per se, but, instead, to eliminate the "build up" in Salvatore's previous novels, about age catching up to Entreri.
-Indeed, though Entreri's "transformation" took place in Realms of Shadow, which was written in April 2002, before the developments for 4e began. So, they weren't written to allow Entreri to survive the 100 year jump, per se, but, instead, to eliminate the "build up" in Salvatore's previous novels, about age catching up to Entreri.
Hearing that, I probably should go to Amazon.com right now and dig up Realms of Shadow if they have it. So...yeah. I am just utterly confused at this point. Yes I may be thirteen and have at least 30 FR/D&D novels (majority by R. A. Salvatore) but I still get confused a lot.
Still better than RAS though, I'll agree with that at least. :P :D
What isn't? ;)
DB
What isn't? ;)
Eddings (massively confusing story line and characters)
Farland (mediocre)
Goodkind (many Mary Sue characters)
Any Terry Brooks novel past the Talismans of Shanarra
Kevin J Anderson for people older than 15
Any Anne Rice novel featuring Lestat
Goodkind was awesome in the first book, great in the second, and merely good in the third. Anything after that isn't really worth reading. More like his own personal political commentary then any sort of consistent stroryline.
Shanarra - My mother bought me the book when it first came out, and I had just finished reading LotR and the Chronicles of Narnia, so I was ravenous for anything fantasy. I don't think I got past the third chapter. To this day I have the book in my attic... unread.
My sister is an Anne Rice fanatic, and I have no respect for her, ergo that lack of respect transfers to the things she likes. I have never read any of it, nor wish to.
You want great literature, read Heinlein, Asimov, H. G. Wells, Frank Herbert, Fred Saberhagen, Larry Niven, Ursula LeGuin, etc... those are AUTHORS!
99% of fantasy I would not count as 'literature', its just heroic pulp riding the coatails of Tolkien. Not that pulp is bad, mind you, some of it is quite good, as Robert Howard's Conan series clearly demonstrates. It just is what it is.
And game setting books are the bottom of the barrel - the very pulp of the pulp.
That being said, I think RAS is a very good writer (else, why did his fame skyrocket, and he was able to break-out of the game sub-genre?). I don't know if I'd qualify him as 'great', but his stuff is definately the cream of the D&D crop. Paul Kemp, on the other hand, I think is wasting his time writing for FR - he could definately worm his way into that aforementioned group if he can get some decent plot material behind him. His character development and descriptive text are flawless. I think if he ever created his own world, he could easily be another Michael Moorcock (who I consider riding the border of 'literature' - his books fall just short of great most of the time).
Enough about novels and authors; everyone has their own taste. Some books I can't put down, and stay up all night finishing, and others I put down after only a chapter or two and never pick up again. In most cases, I couldn't tell you why that is - if I knew that, I would be a best-selling author myself. ;)
Anne Rice books are alright, hate the fanatics (But i prefer Anne Rice to Salvatore).
Agree completely with MT on Eddings - light, easily digestible, like digestive biscuits.
Agree with MT on Goodkind, but Faith of the Fallen is amazing.
But Tolkien still reigns supreme - The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, Children of Húrin, The Silmarillion...
But i'll disagree on two things with MT -
Conan. No. Not good.
Moorcock. No. AWFUL.
I've read some Moorcock recently (god... thats sounds awful!), and it wasn't as good as I remember (it had Nazis! To much 'Indiana Jones' feel for me). The book - The Dream Thief's Daughter - was tie-in to a rather excellent work of his I read years ago - The Warhound and the World's Pain. Some of his stuff I didn't care for (the other 'Eternal Champions'), but all in all, I like the way the stories fit into the D&D multiverse so well. I can see the various Gods of Chaos and Lords of Order struggling on the upper planes, with their plots and counter-plots leaking over into Sigil. It is just such a good fit, in my eyes.
You know that Michael Moorcock and Robert Howard were good friends, right? And that they considered their novels taking place in the same multiverse (along with a couple of other authors back then), and that Conan himself was an Avatar of the Eternal Champion, just like Elric. They were supposed to co-write a story together starring the two, but unfortunely Howard comitted suicide before they could.
that would have been like Heaven to me.
Anyway, I guess thats why you don't like either - the styles are similar. I can take just about anything either of them write and drop it into my games - authors like Terry Goodkind and the late, great Robert Jordan not so much. I love their stuff, but its not very 'modular', if you know what I mean. All of their lore comes with a lot of baggage, and requires a good deal of 'back-filling' to be adapted to other settings.
I suppose, its all about what you want out a book - besides being entertained, I like to steal ideas for my own stuff.
Made a world with my brother once. Removed all clerics, wizards, paladins, druids and bards. Sorcerers could learn more spells by doing a spellcraft check and could cast more than their daily allotment by doing a fortitude check. Taken from Wheel of Time=)
Wasn't so much that he had three wives, so much as how Jordan went about it. Felt very forced and masturbatory fantasy to me. To each their own though. Really though, I'm not much of a fan of sci-fi/fantasy literature in the first place, so... keep that in mind. ;)
Well, he actually never describes it, he's comes perilously close some times though. But aside from his books, i rarely read fantasy. Like MT said 99.9% is awful.
Hearing that, I probably should go to Amazon.com right now and dig up Realms of Shadow if they have it. So...yeah. I am just utterly confused at this point. Yes I may be thirteen and have at least 30 FR/D&D novels (majority by R. A. Salvatore) but I still get confused a lot.
-Being as that I used Amazon.com to get the exact date Realms of Shadow was published, they obviously still have it availible.
Kevin J Anderson for people older than 15
-You know, I had to think about that for a second. But, having read the New Jedi Order books, the Swarm War books, and all of the released books in the current arc so far, I am going to have to agree. The Jedi Academy Trilogy, and Darksaber were so one-dimensional, in 20/20 hindsight.
Eddings (massively confusing story line and characters)
Farland (mediocre)
Goodkind (many Mary Sue characters)
Any Terry Brooks novel past the Talismans of Shanarra
Kevin J Anderson for people older than 15
Any Anne Rice novel featuring Lestat
Hey! I ENJOY Brooks' Shannara novels, even the ones past Talismans. And the new Origin of Shanna's novels are interesting.
And, for Mary Sue's, no one beats Clive Cussler, but, he's not a fantasy/Sci Fi author. still, even though I LOVE the Dirk Pitt novels, havign the AUTHOR show up to save the characters from the corner he painted them into is so Deus ex machina it's not funny.
And, if you want good Fantasy, try The Misplaced Legion. It's Harry Turtledove, before he had an ego that let him pump out crap.
But Tolkien still reigns supreme - The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, Children of Húrin, The Silmarillion...
QFT
Well, he actually never describes it, he's comes perilously close some times though. But aside from his books, i rarely read fantasy. Like MT said 99.9% is awful.
Wasn't the act, so much as the whole feel behind the build up of the relationships... I was always left with the impression that it was a case of 'oh, he's such a stud, we should all share him because he's that awesome of a man". Sorry, but, I just can't see a noble sharing a man she likes with a bunch of commoners... stretched my suspension of disbelief way past the breaking point with that one.
if you like Fantasy novels, i'd recommend The Wheel of Time by the late Robert Jordan. Excellent stuff, and in my opinion nowhere near as melodramatic as R. A. Salvatore.
I greatly disagree with this statement, I liked WoT up until he fractured the plot into too many subplots, and then when there were two books (8 & 10) where basically nothing happened to make the plot move, and he wrote a prequel novel before finishing the current series, and I threw in the towel. He was an excellent world-builder, but I would not call him an excellent writer. I will finish this series when the last book is finally written from his notes and dictations. And then I will probably never touch it again, IMO it does not have the re-readability of Eddings, Brooks, Goodkind, and most the FR authors. Of the WoT books that I read (1-10), I enjoyed 1-6 & 9. That is only 70%. Opposed to Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth and Terry Brooks Word/Void & Shannara series of which I have enjoyed reading all of them. I also enjoy most of Micheal A. Stackpole's fantasy (various shared and own worlds, stand alone and series) and the Chronicles of the Shadow War by Chris Claremont (books that take place 13-16 years after the movie Willow), the first book which I have read at least 13 times.
Opposed to Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth and Terry Brooks Word/Void & Shannara series of which I have enjoyed reading all of them. I also enjoy most of Micheal A. Stackpole's fantasy (various shared and own worlds, stand alone and series) and the Chronicles of the Shadow War by Chris Claremont (books that take place 13-16 years after the movie Willow), the first book which I have read at least 13 times.
Word and the Void are fun. And now they are the Pre-History of Shannara. The new Origin of Shannara series (Armageddon's Child and Elves of Cintra are the two out so far) are the bridge between the two series.
And, is it true Claremont kills off all the characters form the movie but Willow and Alora Dannan in those books?
Word and the Void are fun. And now they are the Pre-History of Shannara. The new Origin of Shannara series (Armageddon's Child and Elves of Cintra are the two out so far) are the bridge between the two series.
I know, I am eagerly awaiting the third of the bridge novels.
And, is it true Claremont kills off all the characters form the movie but Willow and Alora Dannan in those books?
Answered in a PM.
I greatly disagree with this statement, I liked WoT up until he fractured the plot into too many subplots, and then when there were two books (8 & 10) where basically nothing happened to make the plot move, and he wrote a prequel novel before finishing the current series, and I threw in the towel. He was an excellent world-builder, but I would not call him an excellent writer. I will finish this series when the last book is finally written from his notes and dictations. And then I will probably never touch it again, IMO it does not have the re-readability of Eddings, Brooks, Goodkind, and most the FR authors. Of the WoT books that I read (1-10), I enjoyed 1-6 & 9. That is only 70%. Opposed to Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth and Terry Brooks Word/Void & Shannara series of which I have enjoyed reading all of them. I also enjoy most of Micheal A. Stackpole's fantasy (various shared and own worlds, stand alone and series) and the Chronicles of the Shadow War by Chris Claremont (books that take place 13-16 years after the movie Willow), the first book which I have read at least 13 times.
Well, yep, we disagree. Eddings and Brooks (only Shannara) i have read, but never bothered to reread, just not good enough or memorable. The intro to one of them i thought was copy/paste from Lord of the Rings, which really, really bugged me. Sword of Truth i found pretty bad after 3 books, aside from Faith of the Fallen. But i do agree with the plot splits - very, very annoying, think there was about 19 pages (1000 page book) about Rand in book 10. But Lord of Chaos was incredible, and the latest book was pretty cool. But this is all subjective!
Mostly i don't read fantasy though!
One of the best books I ever read was called The Hot Zone. Both Stephen King and Clive Barker have said that it was the most frightening thing they have ever read.
And it's all TRUE...
:D
Terry Pratchett Diskworld books.
:D
Even Elminster couldn't take out Rincewind; he's got a lifetime's experience of not dying!
/slap
/slap
I came to this thread to read some current scoop on the predicted doom and gloom of the new edition of FR, not a commentary on what books are cool and whatnot. Get back on track now or I'll...I'll...
/slap
/slap
/slap
I came to this thread to read some current scoop on the predicted doom and gloom of the new edition of FR, not a commentary on what books are cool and whatnot. Get back on track now or I'll...I'll...
OK, ok, fine...you win
THE NEW REALMS SUCKS!
It is the equivalent of New Coke and Dragonlance: Saga Edition
The designers of the New Realms must have been high on crack when they conceived the New Realms.
Happy now? Feel better? Cuz I was enjoying the book discussion more :D
The designers of the New Realms must have been high on crack when they conceived the New Realms.
Must be something more potent... i want whatever the designers are on!
But to keep this sorta on topic; favourite FR book/s?
But to keep this sorta on topic; favourite FR book/s?
-The Star of Cursrah
-The Star of Cursrah
Yep, that's pretty good. I prefer "The Lost Library of Cormanthyr" over it, though.
Yep, that's pretty good. I prefer "The Lost Library of Cormanthyr" over it, though.
-See, I didn't like Lost Library of Cormanthyr took much. I think it was the main character that did it. I didn't particularly sympathize with him. At first, I didn't like Star of Cursrah too much- the story seemed to take forever to take off. But, once it did, it was great. Same thing with Lost Library of Cormanthyr , except the story didn't reach the same heights.
Must be something more potent... i want whatever the designers are on!
But to keep this sorta on topic; favourite FR book/s?
Hmmm, let's see. For me, its a toss up. I enjoy Spellfire alot, but also and quite partial to Elfshadow and Darkwalker on Moonshae as well as The Crystal Shard (*gasp. Yep, I enjoyed Drizzt, IN THE BEGINNING)
My problem with the entirety of the Lost Empires novel line is that each and every one had a very anti-climatic ending, no matter how good the rest of the book was.
-You've been so desensitized that you've come to expect RSE-endings...
-You've been so desensitized that you've come to expect RSE-endings...
No, that is not it, it is that in each book (IIRC) the adventurers find what they are looking for, just to lose it again. I think that each book was supposed to end like that, but for me, that is not good story-telling.
I remember reading FR stories that I liked, where the only people effected were the characters. Why must there always be an 'awsome' explosion in every single novel now?
RAS is a great writer, as long as he doesn't let his ego allow himself to pump out garbage (like some people I could name), his stuff both effects the Realms at large, and yet is not 'Realms Shaking'. Taking back Mithril Hall was a big thing for those characters, and maybe important to the dwarves, but it was hardly a blip on the radar when it came to the rest of the world. Even nearby Silverymoon barely noticed at first. And all of the events after - the war with Menzoberranzan, the founding of an Orcish Kingdom, etc... really doesn't cause anyone outside of 'The North' to bat an eye. The Drow are always attacking someone (look at Shadowdale and Cormanthor, or Calimshan!), and Orcs are always founding Kingdoms (the Stonelands and Vaastar). Those are really just Faerûn-as-usual events.
I found the interplay between Artemis and Morik the Rogue to be one of the best written and most entertaining scenes ever appearing in FR - and it effected NOTHING outside of those two characters.
Blowing cr@p up is a sign of having to cover up your meager writing skills with grandiose changes, thus FORCING people to buy the book just to keep up with the Forgotten realms lore.
Do you know what the actual definition of 'Bestselling' is? It means that the publishing house was happy with the sales of your last novel. Thats it. Now, when you also happen to be a bigwig that works for the same company that publishes the novels, its pretty easy to see how you can apply the label to yourself.
Its like having to hand out writing assignments (that you get paid for!), and looking through the pile of several hundred 'pitches' you find one you really like... that just happens to have your own name on it.
"Well gee, aren't I just freekin' amazing?"
Or maybe its the guy you have lunch with every day. Either way, the whole setup is so self-serving I find it bothers me on an almost primal level. Politicians and corporate muckity-mucks - the whole world would be better off without them.
No, that is not it, it is that in each book (IIRC) the adventurers find what they are looking for, just to lose it again. I think that each book was supposed to end like that, but for me, that is not good story-telling.
-There's a moral to be learned there.
-There's a moral to be learned there.
No, Hawkins, without having reading the books myself, would like to see something accomplished, not necessarily an RSE, but something like what MT posted above. Reclaiming an old hold or something.
No, Hawkins, without having reading the books myself, would like to see something accomplished, not necessarily an RSE, but something like what MT posted above. Reclaiming an old hold or something.
-How can you say nothing is accomplished if you haven't even read the books? Take Star of Cursrah, for instance. While it is a minor thing, to say it without spoiling anything, a character in the novel rediscovered his/her identity. I'd consider that an accomplishment, regardless of the eventual resolution of the overarching conflict in the novel. Or, the Nether Scrolls novel. In the end, the characters in question do not get to keep the Nether Scroll that they encounter. Does that somehow make things anti-climactic? No, especially when other factors in the novel are considered.
And unless the PCs walk away with 'Phat Lewtz', your gonna have an angry mob on your hands when the 7-month campaign arc is over, and you say "but you learned who your mother was". :P
Certainly, in game terms, it is. the problem is, YOU look at FR like a story, while many of the rest of us look at it as a gaming environment.
-I look at things from the perspective of the setting, in general. That said, people don't always get what they want. You think that the Elven Crusade was the first and only organized attempt to recover Myth Drannor, by anyone?
And unless the PCs walk away with 'Phat Lewtz', your gonna have an angry mob on your hands when the 7-month campaign arc is over, and you say "but you learned who your mother was". :P
-Depends on the type of game you play. I just recently introduced an arc into my campaign where the players aren't getting an excessive rewards or anything, but one of the PCs is discovering who her parents are, and what happened to them that resulted in her being an orphan. Thus far, no one has complained, and this has been about two months, now.
As for finding your identity, it's not very novel, is it?
-Sure it is. Why not?
-Sure it is. Why not?
'Cause it's clichéd and overused to pieces? it's good for a novel, but might not work in a fantasy novel. But i've not read the books, so i really can't say whether it worked or not.
No, reading that the heroes get something and then lose it just doesn't make for a very good finish (in Hawkins opinion). As for finding your identity, it's not very novel, is it? And getting ahold of the Nether Scrolls is perilously close to an RSE, if you get to keep 'em. That's how artifacts should be treated.
It's very ... Smurfy.
Adventure smurf: "Well, we may have lost the magic staff, but we all learned an important lesson about life!"
Papa smurf: "Being true to your own Smurf? That's the Smurfiest lesson ever!"
**all the Smurfs gather in a group hug**
LA LA LA-LA LA-LA
'Cause it's clichéd and overused to pieces?
-And the traveling bad of heroes, that uncover ancient magic, or that take back an ancient citadel from the forces of evil isn't? :P
As for finding your identity, it's not very novel, is it?
I think it's a plot that never truly gets old.
Its like having to hand out writing assignments (that you get paid for!), and looking through the pile of several hundred 'pitches' you find one you really like... that just happens to have your own name on it.
"Well gee, aren't I just freekin' amazing?"
Don't know how true that is, but it's damn funny.
-And the traveling bad of heroes, that uncover ancient magic, or that take back an ancient citadel from the forces of evil isn't? :P
Fair point - but that's what fantasy's all about? That's why i become an adventurer, not to wallow in teenage angst, trying to find my place in the world. if i wanted that, i'd be an emo and on the receiving end of the beatings i deal out!;)
Sure, finding out who the parents of the orphan is great and all - but you are still going to hand out Exp. when it is all over (for roleplaying), which means there is a reward. We do not see that reward at the end of a novel that accomplishes no material goals.
BTW, one of the bestest (IMO) quests I ever did in WoW involved taking an Orphan 'site seeing' - it was loads of fun. :D
I did it for the Exp, but when it was over, I felt all 'fuzzy' inside. :P
...not to wallow in teenage angst, trying to find my place in the world. if i wanted that, i'd be an emo...
-Gee, that sounds like one of the most popular and best-selling characters in this specific sub-genre (D&D-related TSR/WotC novels)...;)
Sure, finding out who the parents of the orphan is is great and all - but you are still going to hand out Exp. when it is all over (for roleplaying), which means there is a reward. We do not see that reward at the end of a novel that accomplishes no material goals.
-I don't give out EXP for roleplaying. You're supposed to do that to begin with. Only if you do something exceptional, which isn't exactly roleplaying, per se, since that also happens in combat.
-And, you do see that at the end of a novel. The character in question is "complete", or whatnot, isn't he/she/it? Or, he/she/it has accomplished some kind of other goal, be it love, happiness, whatever...
I want to see the heroes clean-out the monster lair and get Phat Lewts (and maybe, just maybe, in the course of their adventure they learn a thing or two).
That is SO Bill Cosby/Fat Albert. :D
-I don't give out EXP for roleplaying.
Finally!
I understand now... you play the game WRONG. :P
I don't know about you, but I hate 'sappy' endings. ;)
I want to see the heroes clean-out the monster lair and get Phat Lewts (and maybe, just maybe, in the course of their adventure they learn a thing or two).
That is SO Bill Cosby/Fat Albert. :D
Hey, hey, HEY, it's Moooonty Haul!
I understand now... you play the game WRONG. :P
And when someone's wrong on the Internet... CRUSADE!!!
I don't know about you, but I hate 'sappy' endings. ;)
-So, why are you being a proponent of the adventurers cleaning out that monster lair? Isn't success the...most cliche, overdone, 'sappy' thing of all?
Finally!
I understand now... you play the game WRONG. :P
-I starting thinking of a witty retort to that, that involved the phrase 'Your mom', but it just wasn't coming to me that easily, so I gave up. I just wanted to let you know, though, that I did try.
And when someone's wrong on the Internet... CRUSADE!!!
-Crusade, the European version of Cowboys and Indians. Heh, that sounded good.
-I starting thinking of a witty retort to that, that involved the phrase 'Your mom', but it just wasn't coming to me that easily, so I gave up. I just wanted to let you know, though, that I did try.
Hey! My mother is a SAINT!
Well... at least she was in 3e... now I think they made her a Tannari half-dragon Shadowmuffin in the new rules...
It's very ... Smurfy.
Adventure smurf: "Well, we may have lost the magic staff, but we all learned an important lesson about life!"
Papa smurf: "Being true to your own Smurf? That's the Smurfiest lesson ever!"
**all the Smurfs gather in a group hug**
LA LA LA-LA LA-LA
and as the smurfs hug and sing, the nuclear weapon hidden inside their home goes off, ridding the world of them forever.
The End.
Right - heading back to your 'roots' is so 'Drizzt' it isn't even funny. ;)
Sure, finding out who the parents of the orphan is is great and all - but you are still going to hand out Exp. when it is all over (for roleplaying), which means there is a reward. We do not see that reward at the end of a novel that accomplishes no material goals.
BTW, one of the bestest (IMO) quests I ever did in WoW involved taking an Orphan 'site seeing' - it was loads of fun. :D
I did it for the Exp, but when it was over, I felt all 'fuzzy' inside. :P
I wanted to adopt the orphan and raise him as my hunter's protege'. Actually, I did that after they did the draenai version of the orphan quests (humans can;t be hunters) and RP'd that my new draenai hunter was the same orphan that got taken on those quests by my night elf. Had to do some time-twisting of course, but made it work. Least for me and my guild (not on an RP server, not that it matters in WoW really) Still the quests were fun
-How can you say nothing is accomplished if you haven't even read the books? Take Star of Cursrah, for instance. While it is a minor thing, to say it without spoiling anything, a character in the novel rediscovered his/her identity. I'd consider that an accomplishment, regardless of the eventual resolution of the overarching conflict in the novel. Or, the Nether Scrolls novel. In the end, the characters in question do not get to keep the Nether Scroll that they encounter. Does that somehow make things anti-climactic? No, especially when other factors in the novel are considered.
LK and MT, I wasn't saying that they needed an RSE. All I was saying is that when I bought and read the books (this was about 7-8 years ago, so my memory is a bit murky), each started out with an exciting adventure and an archaeological pursuit, then when the main character finally found and got a hold of archaeological item he/she was looking for, it was torn from his/her grasp in a sudden event and then the book ended. To me, that was anti-climatic; so anti-climatic that I then sold all my Lost Empires books to a used book store (an event that I regret because I horde books, especially fantasy novels, like a dragon does treasure).
All I was saying is that when I bought and read the books (this was about 7-8 years ago, so my memory is a bit murky), each started out with an exciting adventure and an archaeological pursuit, then when the main character finally found and got a hold of archaeological item he/she was looking for, it was torn from his/her grasp in a sudden event and then the book ended. To me, that was anti-climatic; so anti-climatic that I then sold all my Lost Empires books to a used book store (an event that I regret because I horde books, especially fantasy novels, like a dragon does treasure).
-Yes, and don't you think the overarching point of the novels was not about the materialistic persuit of the items in question (The Nether Scrolls, or the Library of Cormanthyr, or whatever it was in Star of Cursrah), and instead, something else? Using Star of Cursrah as an example again, the climax to the book, in my opinion, took place when the character in question, without going into details, discovered not only who he/she/it was, but what happened to her/his/its previous companions.
-Yes, and don't you think the overarching point of the novels was not about the materialistic persuit of the items in question (The Nether Scrolls, or the Library of Cormanthyr, or whatever it was in Star of Cursrah), and instead, something else? Using Star of Cursrah as an example again, the climax to the book, in my opinion, took place when the character in question, without going into details, discovered not only who he/she/it was, but what happened to her/his/its previous companions.
I understand where you are going, but it just did not hit the spot for me. I am not saying that it cannot hit the spot for others, but it just didn't for me. I would have found it more fulfilling if the bit of history that they were searching for, and found, was then used to benefit the world, or at least give better insight into the past.
and as the smurfs hug and sing, the nuclear weapon hidden inside their home goes off, ridding the world of them forever.
The End.
Like this?
Show
Two pointless deaths - especially Phaeraun at the very end there.
I understand where you are going, but it just did not hit the spot for me. I am not saying that it cannot hit the spot for others, but it just didn't for me. I would have found it more fulfilling if the bit of history that they were searching for, and found, was then used to benefit the world, or at least give better insight into the past.
-No, I know.
Like this?
-Ah, so refreshing...Yes, like that.
And thats exactly why I thought that series sucked.ShowTwo pointless deaths - especially Phaeraun at the very end there.
Like this?
OK, if THAt is supposed ot be anti-war, people don;t know how much the Smurfs need to be blown up. I LOVED it
-Ah, so refreshing...Yes, like that.
Am I a bad person because I find that video hysterically funny instead of horrifying?
OK, if THAt is supposed ot be anti-war, people don;t know how much the Smurfs need to be blown up. I LOVED it
Me too--if someone would go through all that trouble to BOMB the smurfs, they must have done something to deserve it!
Or, the Nether Scrolls novel. In the end, the characters in question do not get to keep the Nether Scroll that they encounter. Does that somehow make things anti-climactic? No, especially when other factors in the novel are considered.
He still learned something about magic that he can't loose: The truth about magic. That alone is enough to make him one of the greatest Wizards of Faerûn.
That Mystra's Weave was all BS, and you didn't really need it?
It never said anything about Mystra being a farce, on the contrary, it pointed her as the ultimate source of magic, as she should be.
No, it was: "Spell are an illusion, Magic is the Truth". It meant that everything that Wizards did to cast spells was unnecesary, that you only needed pure will (sounds like Mage for WoD) for it (in game terms, automatic still, automatic silent and eschew materials).
It never said anything about Mystra being a farce, on the contrary, it pointed her as the ultimate source of magic, as she should be.
You mean, as she was. After all 4e FR has killed her.
I still can;t swallow that one. Shar (overated EMO Goddess) and Cyric (Lame, mooron of the cosmos) kill Mystra in her OWN REALM? Azuth, and the others don;t try to stop it? Xvim's plot to steal Tymora's and Beshaba's plan was stopped by four MORTALS (one fo THEM a kender no less) with help from Selune and Finder, yet THIS happens?
Me too--if someone would go through all that trouble to BOMB the smurfs, they must have done something to deserve it!
They had it coming... Annoying old men and such.
Mmmmhmm. In my day(clutches cane) it was Gord. Let's hope that Phaeraun(gods that name is pretty (Fey-ee-ra-oon?, which he would hate or love depending upon the circumstance) and his finger make a splash later. :D
Now thats a name I haven't heard in awhile, Gord the Rogue, one of my favorite characters (even though I only read two books, Gord left a very good impression on me).
No, it was: "Spell are an illusion, Magic is the Truth". It meant that everything that Wizards did to cast spells was unnecesary, that you only needed pure will (sounds like Mage for WoD) for it (in game terms, automatic still, automatic silent and eschew materials).
Eh, that rubs me the wrong way for some reason.
Eh, that rubs me the wrong way for some reason.
Why is that? Every magic system acnowledges that at the end it's the will of the practitioner what makes everything happen.
Really grew my concept of magic from White Wolf though, so... although I seem to recall even 2e's VGtaTM hinting at that particular thought.
Mystra's spin-doctors (her priesthood) convinced the whole world that the Weave was the only way to go, which was false (since we know of at least two other methods not requiring the Weave).
Mystra's Weave was just an 'Instruction set' overlayed on raw Magic, to make it easier, and also allow her better control of mortals using Magic. That doesn't mean it was the only game in town, but like Microsoft's Windows, it became the format of choice when casting because of it's accessability.
Hmmmm... Mystrasoft....
Anyhow, 4e's take (and the take in the novel, I think) is that magic is simply the ability to take some form of energy, and convert it to another form, either energy or matter. The will of the caster, be he Arcane, Divine, or psionic, is what allows him this control over primal forces, and all of the hocus-pocus mumbo-jumbo are just ways for him to increase his ability to concentrate. They are like exercises... by practicing certain somatic and verbal patterns, one can achieve the right 'frame of mind' to access greater levels of power.
Like Buddhist Mantras, Monastic Chants, or even 'Ki Shouts' used in Martial Arts - they just help you focus, is all.
...Mystra's Weave was just an 'Instruction set' overlayed on raw Magic, to make it easier, and also allow her better control of mortal use of Magic. That doesn't mean it was the only game in town, but like Microsoft's Windows, it became the format of choice when casting because of it's accessability.
Hmmmm... Mystrasoft....
Mystryl = Windows 95
Mystra = Windows XP
Midnight = Vista
4E = Linux RedHat?
OMG, it's the shizz!
Give me Midnight back.
4E = Assembler.
Give me Midnight back.
*bzzzt*
As of June 2008, we regret to inform you that Midnight OS is no longer officially supported for any Realms Systems, regardless of user experience. We recommend completely wiping your hard drive (please download the Spellplague utility for best results) in preparation for a clean install of Alpha-4E. Alpha-4E is available for $60 by pre-order, and all prior descriptions you may have heard for Alpha-4E are subject to change without notice. Additional upgrades will be released without notice; additional fees will apply. Although many elements of Alpha-4E will seem similar to Midnight OS, backup of prior programs is unnecessary as all versions of previous utilities and applications will be completely incompatible with Alpha-4E.
Thank you.
*click*
*bzzzt*
As of June 2008, we regret to inform you that Midnight OS is no longer officially supported for any Realms Systems, regardless of user experience. We recommend completely wiping your hard drive (please download the Spellplague utility for best results) in preparation for a clean install of Alpha-4E. Alpha-4E is available for $60 by pre-order, and all prior descriptions you may have heard for Alpha-4E are subject to change without notice. Additional upgrades will be released without notice; additional fees will apply. Although many elements of Alpha-4E will seem similar to Midnight OS, backup of prior programs is unnecessary as all versions of previous utilities and applications will be completely incompatible with Alpha-4E.
Thank you.
*click*
Nether Scrolls = Dos
Mystryl = Windows 3.1
Mystra = Windows 95/98
Elminster (holding Mystra's power) = Windows Millenium
Midnight = XP
4e = Vista... Overly simplistic and so idiot-proof it doesn't allow you to tinker, and also doesn't allow ANY of your old 'peripherals' to work any more. Looks pretty, but thats about it - not for 'power users'. :P
Mac = GURPS
Linux = Warhammer RPG (very cool, but almost no one uses it)
Solaris = MERPs
Amiga = Runequest
That would be the closest analogies I can think of. Something like Tunnels & Trolls would be something along the lines of a Comodore 64. ;)
Why is that? Every magic system acnowledges that at the end it's the will of the practitioner what makes everything happen.
I guess because I'm set in my ways? I tend to be annoyed at least a bit when a novel comes out and says "everything you thought you knew about X in the Realms...was wrong!" Heck, this novel (as I understand it, based on what you said) is basically saying the basic, core rules regarding spellcasting are wrong. If all you need to cast spells is willpower, why the heck are the rules telling everyone you usually need spell components, the ability to speak, and the ability to make gestures with the body? Are the rulebooks lying?
Did the novel say you don't even need to memorize spells?
That was one of the reasons why I was annoyed with the novel Stardeep (as I mentioned very recently)--it blatantly inserted aboleth-creatures as rulers/colonizers of Toril that predate EVERYTHING else we know of.
I want to thank (sarcastically) the FR designers in completely doing away with everything we've come to know and love about the Realms. WotC is already alienating us veterans from past editions with this new junk coming with 4E, and now they're trying to get rid of us veteran Realms fans.
I've read the entries from the years 1375 D.R. to 1385 D.R. (where it ends) in the Grand History of the Realms. Apparently, one of the things about the Realms that I found awesome was its cultures, and cultures bring many religions. The Realms had many deities and it was a fun and variable setting for anyone. There was room to run whatever campaign you wanted.
And now, thanks to this 4E FR crap, they've gone on a huge deicide. Within those ten years, they first killed off Selvetarm and Vhaeraun. Then they kill off Kiaransalee, leaving only Eilistraee and Lolth. They're trying to make the "game" simpler because, apparently, there're too many retard gamers that can't handle a little variety instead of the typical "Good God, Evil God" scenario, which is now what the drow pantheon has turned into.
They then kill off Deep Duerra and Laduguer. Sorry, folks, no duergar clerics in your Realms now! In the process, they lost Gorm Gulthyn and Haela Brightaxe.
Then you kill off Helm. Then, to top it all off, you decide to slay Mystra completely in 1385, screw every spellcaster and form of magic in the Realms with this Spellplague junk, and then say only greater deities managed to live, so now you killed off EVERY deity instead of the greater gods.
Someone tell me why all this is a good thing for the Realms? I'm a conservative Realms fan. I don't mind changes...but so many RSE within the span of a year, five years, 10 years? That's ludicrous.
You don't have to restructure the Realms by killing off so many deities. You just made the most involved, detailed setting into the most mundane, simpleton setting. Thanks for not only ruining D&D, but also the Realms.
I believe I am going to consider developing an organization opposing WotC's policies with D&D. They need to be stopped before they destroy the game entirely. Well, what am I saying? There's no point for me to do that...
They already have destroyed the game and a famous setting along with it.
Hear hear!
As it happens, this whole thing fit in nicely with my faerunian pre-apocolyptic campaign idea anyway and required only one change to make the whole thing fit (in my version, a LOT more deities survived).
I wont be converting to Version 4, and not only that but I seem to recall reading about a campaign setting that split off in to two timelines of something. It was a rather esoteric reference and I apologise for being vage, but perhaps at least some of you know of it.
In any case, I'm planning on introducing a faerunian "elsewhere" where things end slightly differently.
(One of my high-level Mystra-worhsipping wizards knows what's going to happen so he's trying to commit genocide to feed a magic device that will make a new weave out of a shard of the Mystra before Midnight. Not only that, but Shar is the BBEG of the campaign and she's the winning side currently).
In any case, even if the details aren't exactly like that (they change when the plot points don't get used) but a fan-project may be in order, might it not? A projct to do a better faerun.
That was one of the reasons why I was annoyed with the novel Stardeep (as I mentioned very recently)--it blatantly inserted aboleth-creatures as rulers/colonizers of Toril that predate EVERYTHING else we know of.
That has to be the ultimate "Ha Ha! My creatures came first, so now they are SO much cooler then yours..." type of writing.
Other Author: "Oh yeah? Well I'm writing a book now that will SO much cooler the yours , and my creatures will be the creators of yours , so nyahhhh!"
RAS: "Oh yeah? "In my next novel, I'm sending Drizzt back in time, and he is going to single-handedly kill ALL the Aboleths, along with their creators, and their 26 trillion servants, without even breaking a sweat... because he is just that cool".
Ed: "Did I ever tell you the story about how Elminster sired Drizzt's father?"
Everyone: :D
*bzzzt*
As of June 2008, we regret to inform you that Midnight OS is no longer officially supported for any Realms Systems, regardless of user experience. We recommend completely wiping your hard drive (please download the Spellplague utility for best results) in preparation for a clean install of Alpha-4E. Alpha-4E is available for $60 by pre-order, and all prior descriptions you may have heard for Alpha-4E are subject to change without notice. Additional upgrades will be released without notice; additional fees will apply. Although many elements of Alpha-4E will seem similar to Midnight OS, backup of prior programs is unnecessary as all versions of previous utilities and applications will be completely incompatible with Alpha-4E.
Thank you.
*click*
Just too awesome... :D
*bzzzt*
As of June 2008, we regret to inform you that Midnight OS is no longer officially supported for any Realms Systems, regardless of user experience. We recommend completely wiping your hard drive (please download the Spellplague utility for best results) in preparation for a clean install of Alpha-4E. Alpha-4E is available for $60 by pre-order, and all prior descriptions you may have heard for Alpha-4E are subject to change without notice. Additional upgrades will be released without notice; additional fees will apply. Although many elements of Alpha-4E will seem similar to Midnight OS, backup of prior programs is unnecessary as all versions of previous utilities and applications will be completely incompatible with Alpha-4E.
Thank you.
*click*
Thank you so much! This, good sir, went right into my sig
DB
...
(One of my high-level Mystra-worhsipping wizards knows what's going to happen so he's trying to commit genocide to feed a magic device that will make a new weave out of a shard of the Mystra before Midnight. Not only that, but Shar is the BBEG of the campaign and she's the winning side currently).
Now that's an example of metagaming if I've ever seen one! So why doesn't your omniscient wizard warn the goddess he is apparently worshipping?
In any case, even if the details aren't exactly like that (they change when the plot points don't get used) but a fan-project may be in order, might it not? A projct to do a better faerun.
Yeah, as soon as something changes, there is bound to be someone who'll stand up and say: "I could have done better and I am going to prove it." Most of the time you are not going to hear much about those projects though. Either that or you are quite underwhelmed when you see the results.
Thank you so much! This, good sir, went right into my sig
DB
Heh, no prob. I'm glad people liked it.
WORLDS IN DANGER
As 4th Edition approaches, you may be thinking about the fate of your campaign world. One way is to have a violent upheaval event, such as the Spellplague in the Forgotten Realms, and create your campaign world anew in the new rules. If you are thinking about campaign-ending adventures, then these hooks are for you. If you're not, they still have utility if you're willing to accept that your campaign world may change if your PCs fail. Bringing a world to the brink and then saving it is even more exciting than destroying it . . . for the players. As the DM, you might find it more exciting to destroy it! Some of these hooks don't quite destroy the world, but they can lead to the destruction of civilization, and that could have the same impact on your campaign.
These hooks make use of Exemplars of Evil and Elder Evils. We recommend picking these books up if you don't already own them (and while they use the 3.5 rules, there are plans to provide 4th Edition updates to them online). Besides, they're really good reads even if you don't use the material. And all the other rulebooks on your shelf can be useful for fleshing out the characters and monsters. If you're running these adventure ideas pre-4th Edition, remember to pull out all the stops and use books you'll never otherwise make use of!
As a general note, the following hooks are designed to fit into your campaign world, not the Forgotten Realms or Eberron settings. (The Forgotten Realms setting has its own coming devastation, after all.) You can use the hooks in the Forgotten Realms or Eberron settings, but too many world-threatening crises in a row can make your players jaded.
These hooks make use of Exemplars of Evil and Elder Evils. We recommend picking these books up if you don't already own them (and while they use the 3.5 rules, there are plans to provide 4th Edition updates to them online). Besides, they're really good reads even if you don't use the material. And all the other rulebooks on your shelf can be useful for fleshing out the characters and monsters. If you're running these adventure ideas pre-4th Edition, remember to pull out all the stops and use books you'll never otherwise make use of!
As a general note, the following hooks are designed to fit into your campaign world, not the Forgotten Realms or Eberron settings. (The Forgotten Realms setting has its own coming devastation, after all.) You can use the hooks in the Forgotten Realms or Eberron settings, but too many world-threatening crises in a row can make your players jaded.
That has to be the ultimate "Ha Ha! My creatures came first, so now they are SO much cooler then yours..." type of writing.
Other Author: "Oh yeah? Well I'm writing a book now that will SO much cooler the yours , and my creatures will be the creators of yours , so nyahhhh!"
RAS: "Oh yeah? "In my next novel, I'm sending Drizzt back in time, and he is going to single-handedly kill ALL the Aboleths, along with their creators, and their 26 trillion servants, without even breaking a sweat... because he is just that cool".
Ed: "Did I ever tell you the story about how Elminster sired Drizzt's father?"
Everyone: :D
you just have to type the strangest things sometimes...definitely sig-worthy =)
-So did any body check this out? Worlds in danger
Yeah, right, WotC, I'm so gonna destroy all my homebrew campaign worlds with Worlds in danger so I can start a new game only using 4e-FR material. Thank you for these splendid tools to accomplish that. I've always wondered how to get rid of these pesky campaign worlds!
Yeah, right, WotC, I'm so gonna destroy all my homebrew campaign worlds with Worlds in danger so I can start a new game only using 4e-FR material. Thank you for these splendid tools to accomplish that. I've always wondered how to get rid of these pesky campaign worlds!
-Great idea!
Everyone who has the same constitution score and character class will have the same hit points. Everyone who used to gracefully fight with two weapons, slashing across battlefields, now must pick up the biggest two handed weapon they can, even if it's bigger than they are, because they get ONE attack a round.
Even the gods are made of it.
It's TOFU!
-Great idea!
These guys can't even come up with a new BAD idea -
"This product allowed dungeon masters to destroy their world, in order to prepare their players to start anew with the new 3rd Edition rules. "
They tried the same thing when they ended 2nd edition... and they even tried to sell us a sourcebook to do it.
I suppose that makes WotC the experts at ruining worlds.... :P
I suppose that makes WotC the experts at ruining worlds.... :P
QFT
These guys can't even come up with a new BAD idea -
-Wow...I didn't know such a thing existed. I am wondering now, why does a setting/world have to be destroyed in order to be built back up?
-Wow...I didn't know such a thing existed. I am wondering now, why does a setting/world have to be destroyed in order to be built back up?
Because most designers are too self-centered and want to be recognized by something "cool" they wrote, instead of making just another piece of other developer's setting, while using it's brand-name to sell his ideas faster.
Which is exactly what's happening to Forgotten Realms. Nobody at WotC is as good as Ed Greenwood, Elaine Cunningham, Steven Schend or the other FR big ones, and they feel diminished by that fact. That's why they destroyed everything they could to remake the setting to their tastes, while keeping the few elements they could use to sell the setting to the biggest audience possible.
And I know that because they talk like Argentina's president, like there was nothing good before they came to power.
In the case of D&D I agree with you. For other ways of magic true will is the source of power. In Mage it even molds reality itself, just like an old archmage said to an apprentice: "If tomorrow everybody believes they can fly, airlines wold go broke".
If tommorrow everyone believes they can fly, we'd have a whole world of insane people.:P
But I digress. I see your point (though I'm not familiar with the setting you are talking about).
That has to be the ultimate "Ha Ha! My creatures came first, so now they are SO much cooler then yours..." type of writing.
Other Author: "Oh yeah? Well I'm writing a book now that will SO much cooler the yours , and my creatures will be the creators of yours , so nyahhhh!"
RAS: "Oh yeah? "In my next novel, I'm sending Drizzt back in time, and he is going to single-handedly kill ALL the Aboleths, along with their creators, and their 26 trillion servants, without even breaking a sweat... because he is just that cool".
Ed: "Did I ever tell you the story about how Elminster sired Drizzt's father?"
Everyone: :D
Yeah, next we'll have a novel that talks about creatures that predated the aboleths.
--Maybe they should practice what the preach(yearly RSE's I am looking at you). Utter CR@P!!!
*snort* Indeed! Are they saying they knew better than to release tons of RSEs all around the same time?
Because most designers are too self-centered and want to be recognized by something "cool" they wrote, instead of making just another piece of other developer's setting, while using it's brand-name to sell his ideas faster.
-Which has little to do with that produce. As I understand it, it is to help a DM destroy his/her homebrew setting, so that he/she can rebuild it from the ground up, using the 3e rules, which were new at the time. That is what makes me say 'Wow'.
-Which has little to do with that produce. As I understand it, it is to help a DM destroy his/her homebrew setting, so that he/she can rebuild it from the ground up, using the 3e rules, which were new at the time. That is what makes me say 'Wow'.
It was a general comment that got exactly my feelings about FR 4th :P
It was a general comment that got exactly my feelings about FR 4th :P
-What, the 'Wow' part? As in the 'Whoa' meaning, and not the obvious implications of other things that have the initials WoW.
-I think everyone thinks 'Wow', in whatever fashion, be it good, bad, or the other one. ;)
-What, the 'Wow' part? As in the 'Whoa' meaning, and not the obvious implications of other things that have the initials WoW.
-I think everyone thinks 'Wow', in whatever fashion, be it good, bad, or the other one. ;)
I refered to the post before that last one I made, those were my feelings about FR 4th.
Yeah, next we'll have a novel that talks about creatures that predated the aboleths.
When does it end?
Its like the Cold War and the arms race - The soviets and us kept coming up with bigger and better ways to kill each other, until their own people said enough is enough.
Now the USSR lies in ruin because of that 'bigger and badder' is better attitude. Fat lot of good that train of thought did them (and I fear we are not far behind).
Part of the 'job' of a fantasy setting, be it novels, games, or even comic books, is to 'suspend disbelief'. The way in which a setting does this is by building up the world and characters in such a way that they seem real to us. Once you start changing the world's history, and come up with 'cheesy' WSE's, you 'interupt' the suspension of disbelief, and the setting begins to feel fake.
What that means is that where FR used to be like Avatar: The Last Airbender, it now looks more like Scooby Doo.
And the guy in the fake monster suit? He MUST BE STOPPED!!!
)And as soon as someone writes about THEM...
-They have already, in a very limited manner.
THIS is about Star Wars, but i can easily see us applying this to Rich Baker in a few years. (It is also funny to listen to either way
-Wasn't very funny, no. Only a little.
THIS is about Star Wars, but i can easily see us applying this to Rich Baker in a few years. (It is also funny to listen to either way
And most of those decisions were made by Chris Perkins, not Rich Baker.
And as soon as someone writes about THEM, another author/designer will come up with another race that predated THOSE guys.
Exactly.
And most of those decisions were made by Chris Perkins, not Rich Baker.
OK, fine, then we'd apply it to Chris Perkins then
It's already been revealed who predated the aboleths, but it's an obscure reference to be sure.
A protozoan wielding a flagellum +3?
A protozoan wielding a flagellum +3?
-Not quite that devolved. It's not as obscure as Brian is making it out to be, I think.
-Should I give the answer? I think it's painfully obvious, but that's just me...
Sarrukh. :D
Oh well, at least the Aliens seeding the Galaxy to create humans hasn't come up. Yet anyway...
-And, let's hope it never does...
Oh well, at least the Aliens seeding the Galaxy to create humans hasn't come up. Yet anyway...
Nope, they seed it with Dragons. ;)
Nope, they seed it with Dragons. ;)
-That is very true. It seems, no matter what setting you go to, eggs fell from the skies, bringing Dragons. Hell, I'm guilty in my own setting...:embarrass
-Okay, I'll put it in SBLOCKS, so those who don't want to know won't have to see it.
Thanks for the, uh, present that I had to unwrap several times.
-Yeah, I wanted to be completely sure that anyone who looked at the answer was completely sure they wanted to. ;)
Just out of curiosity, in what source was that revealed in?
Show
-Only one this time!
-Evermeet: Island of the Elves, and Demihuman Deities
-Evermeet: Island of the Elves, and Demihuman Deities
Not that I'm doubting you - I just don't remember that from the novel.
Back before that crazy "experiment gone wrong", wherein they accidently 'nuked' their own DNA and wiped out their species massive collective intelligence. ;)
Where in E:IoE was that?
Not that I'm doubting you - I just don't remember that from the novel.
-It's official. Your copy and my copy just aren't the same...
Show
The ancient [deity] had followed her from Olympus into the Abyss, and he had tried to woo and then to conquer- and he had failed at both. In his rage, Ghaunadaur had slain many of his most powerful worshippers, and robbed others of thier sentience. Entire species of beings were no more, others reduced to sluglike creatures without thought or will.
I like most of the books and read them at least twice. I particularly liked the Year of Rogue Dragons trilogy of the most recent stuff. The only thing that bothered me was they couldn't retrieve the Lathanderites' (can't remember his name right now) body. None of those mages had a telekinesis or disk spell? Maybe I missed something.
Nope, as far as I recall, the body was still were it was at the end of the novel. Of course, it could have been retrieved later.
I remember Ghaunadaur was in the novel, but very little about what he actually did (if anything). I guess I'll have to go through the first part of the book again - it's my favorit part anyway.
I always root for Lolth and Gruumsh (and Malar). :P
@LK - Yup, we definately have different books. :D
I remember Ghaunadaur was in the novel, but very little about what he actually did (if anything). I guess I'll have to go through the first part of the book again - it's my favorite part anyway.
I always root for Lolth and Gruumsh (and Malar). :P
@LK - Yup, we definately have different books. :D
-It definitley makes sense.
I remember Ghaunadaur was in the novel, but very little about what he actually did (if anything). I guess I'll have to go through the first part of the book again - it's my favorit part anyway.
-Asides for the attack on the Seldarine, it striking the intelligence from it's followers is it's only mention.
Rogue Dragons was good?
-No. No. Uh-uh...
-As a book, I guess it was alright, but the "party" is a little "out there". As a source of lore...No way, Jose. You can drive the QE2 through some of the loopholes in that trilogy.
Nope, as far as I recall, the body was still were it was at the end of the novel. Of course, it could have been retrieved later.
Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant I must have missed the reason they couldn't retrieve his body with all of the powerful people involved in the final battle. He survived it long enough to cast a couple of spells, I would think that groups resources could have found a way to get him without too much damage to others. I mean if it was my companion, I would have found a way to at least give him a proper send off, and I believe the other cleric was powerful enough to cast a raise dead after retrieving his body.
Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant I must have missed the reason they couldn't retrieve his body with all of the powerful people involved in the final battle. He survived it long enough to cast a couple of spells, I would think that groups resources could have found a way to get him without too much damage to others. I mean if it was my companion, I would have found a way to at least give him a proper send off, and I believe the other cleric was powerful enough to cast a raise dead after retrieving his body.
I think maybe the simplest explanation is the best--the author just didn't have the wordspace to spend on this (relatively) minor issue. Or, maybe the author felt talking about the body and what to do with it would take away from the impact of the actual sacrifice.
*shrugs* Who knows?
Rogue Dragons was good? I'll have to check it out then.
I enjoyed the trilogy, and you if have the desire to read it, why not do so?
Those book do have some commonly talked about "issues" though, namely those that LK mentioned. Also, some people feel that dragons are killed too often and too easily (though I personally didn't find that to be much of an issue).
I'm thoroughly confused at this point.
@LK - I figured it was a very minor point about Ghaunadaur, because if he had any sort of major role I think I would have remembered that. Isn't he supposed to be somebody else now? Didn't Lolth try to 'eat' him recently?
The Year of Rogue Dragons wasn't an RSE?
I'm thoroughly confused at this point.
The trilogy sorta was an RSE and sorta wasn't...as far as RSEs go it was on the "soft side", in my opinion. It didn't radically change the setting the way some other RSEs did--although, note that there is a sourcebook (Dragons on Faerun) that elaborates on what the effects of the Rage were.
One complaint (which I also disagreed with, by the way) was that the trilogy was focused on the Cold Lands of Faerun and did not go into what was happening in the wider world. I thought that was fine, as it kept the story focused.
I think maybe the simplest explanation is the best--the author just didn't have the wordspace to spend on this (relatively) minor issue. Or, maybe the author felt talking about the body and what to do with it would take away from the impact of the actual sacrifice.
*shrugs* Who knows?
Yea, unfortunately you are prolly right.
The Year of Rogue Dragons wasn't an RSE?
-In and of itself, only a little. But, it contains retroactive retcon RSEs, coupled with that little bit.
Isn't he supposed to be somebody else now?
-No.
Didn't Lolth try to 'eat' him recently?
-Not yet. He's the only member of the Dark Seldarine who hasn't been "dealt" with yet in the Lady Penitent books. As Ascendency of the Last is due out in June, and this matches the blurb in AGHotR where Ghaunadaur leaves the Demonweb Pits...
I found that it cleared up some of the mystery surrounding the Rage and Sammaster, and it was nice to see some of the more less focused on areas get some treatment in the novels, like the Yellow Rose monastary and Damaara.
I think my Realms influencing and your soft RSE are about the same category. It made an impact without changing the pantheon or nations, etc.
Just so you guys know, I have been DMing in the Realms since '87, and have almost all of the books and resources, but you alll come up with some really obscure stuff that amazes me. I have learned a lot just from reading your guys discussions. Thanks.
Just so you guys know, I have been DMing in the Realms since '87, and have almost all of the books and resources, but you alll come up with some really obscure stuff that amazes me. I have learned a lot just from reading your guys discussions. Thanks.
You're welcome.
LK is the one who can explain in detail where the book departs from past Realmslore.
It has to do with the mythal that was controlling the Rage.-Well, Corlain, to put it simply: That a Mythal that was large enough to envelope the entire planet, and not have a single know about it, is borderline "...no". Mr. Byers, at Candlekeep, told me that he wrote that entire schpiel with the idea that it was the 'Manhattan Project' of the Elves. Of course, that doesn't work too good, based on what Mythals are, in and of themselves.
Mythals, from what I know of them, are supposed to be a line of defense, not some sort of 'pre-emptive' offence.
-Geeze, why is it that I have to do everything around here... :: grumble grumble ::
-Well, Corlain, to put it simply: That a Mythal that was large enough to envelope the entire planet, and not have a single know about it, is borderline "...no". Mr. Byers, at Candlekeep, told me that he wrote that entire schpiel with the idea that it was the 'Manhattan Project' of the Elves. Of course, that doesn't work too good, based on what Mythals are, in and of themselves.
I was skeptical of that, but I figured out a way around it.
The Mythal is on the King Killer Star and is linked to the astrological appearance of the King Killer Star. Ergo, the magic of the Mythal bathes Faerun in it's light and dragons go nuts!
Of course, I'm very glad that in the game I'm running where the PC's are GOING to the King Killer Star, no one is playing a dragon or dragonblood of any sort.
One complaint (which I also disagreed with, by the way) was that the trilogy was focused on the Cold Lands of Faerun and did not go into what was happening in the wider world.
-That's what the Realms of the Dragons Anthologies were for.
Why did he have to make it a Mythal? Wouldn't a High-Magic powered curse work just as well in that instance (Like the Drow Descent Curse)?
-Ask him yourself, I don't know.
Mythals, from what I know of them, are supposed to be a line of defense, not some sort of 'pre-emptive' offence.
-They aren't necessarily defensive, per se. It's...latent magic. A field of independent mantles. I can't think of a better way to explain it.
The Mythal is on the King Killer Star and is linked to the astrological appearance of the King Killer Star. Ergo, the magic of the Mythal bathes Faerun in it's light and dragons go nuts!
-Being as that the Dragons aren't engulfed in the Mythal, why would the magics of it (Magics that, unless offensive, like Meteor Swarm, need one to be within their bounds to have any effect) have any effect on the Dragons? The appearance of the King Killer Star "triggers" the passive magics of the Dracorage Mythal, but, if it was literally on the asteroid, thousands of miles in the void...
Which is how Mr. Byers seems to have presented them.
He wrote part of the WotSQ, didn't he?
Figures....
I wish some of these authors would actually try to learn about the setting....
Yes, but they are supposed to 'augment' defenders, and 'keep out' agressors (or at least hamper them).
-Yes, and this is what the Dracorage Mythal is doing. It is casting Mass Dragonrage (or whatever that spell was in Dragons of Faerûn) on all of the Dragons in it's radius (the planet) when certain conditions are met (the King-Killer Star appears in the sky).
Yes, but they are supposed to 'augment' defenders, and 'keep out' agressors (or at least hamper them). Mythals don't go around 'looking for trouble'.
Which is how Mr. Byers seems to have presented them.
He wrote part of the WotSQ, didn't he?
Figures....
I wish some of these authors would actually try to learn about the setting....
Why should they bother? WOTC doesnt; think they should, hence the Giant RESET button called the Spellplague beinmg pressed and the need to know anythign tossed out the window.
-Geeze, why is it that I have to do everything around here... :: grumble grumble ::
-Well, Corlain, to put it simply: That a Mythal that was large enough to envelope the entire planet, and not have a single know about it, is borderline "...no". Mr. Byers, at Candlekeep, told me that he wrote that entire schpiel with the idea that it was the 'Manhattan Project' of the Elves. Of course, that doesn't work too good, based on what Mythals are, in and of themselves.
Because the reward for good work is more work?:D
Wow! I didn't get that from the books. You are right, that is a little...ahem..far fetched. Heck with the QE2, you could run a planet through that one. The way I understood it is that the elves created a dedicated mythal that did one thing - curse dragons. And they limited it to a specific astronomical occurrence, so that amplified the effects on a cycle, thus the rage. That is why it was so powerful, it was limited in effect and timing and could influence such a large area. And wasn't the mythal set in kind of a quasi-planar area so that it acted like a projector and the King Killer star the reflecting lens? Maybe I was giving the author too much credit.
But now I know why much of the later books seem to be resolving alot of the mysteries we have known for 20 years. They wanted to clear it all out so they could do what they wanted with the Realms.
Because the reward for good work is more work?:D
-If that reward is a physical thing, asides for the gratitude of those I help, I'm still waiting...;)
The way I understood it is that the elves created a dedicated mythal that did one thing - curse dragons. And they limited it to a specific astronomical occurrence, so that amplified the effects on a cycle, thus the rage.
-See, like MT said, if the High Magic ritual was a curse, like the curse that transformed the Dark Elves into Drow, and not a physical Mythal, there'd be no real problem.
Maybe I was giving the author too much credit.
-Methinks you were. ;)
-Yes, and this is what the Dracorage Mythal is doing. It is casting Mass Dragonrage (or whatever that spell was in Dragons of Faerûn) on all of the Dragons in it's radius (the planet) when certain conditions are met (the King-Killer Star appears in the sky).
Okay - lets go over this again...
You said it was stupid...
I agreed with you...
NOW you are defending it...
Do you just enjoy arguiing?
You confuse the hell out of me sometimes.
And BTW, if the U.S. 'annexed' the rest of the planet, and then 'defended' that annexation when other countries went to attack us, it would still be an act of agrression, even though they were 'defending' their claim. I'm just not seeing Mythals as something to be used in this fashion - its clearly a belligerant piece of magic.
Ergo, a Mythal that covered the entire planet, and did something horrifically evil to another intelligent race is just one more example of depraved Elven hubris. You do realize that GOOD metallic dragons are equally effected, right? I would think that ALL of Dragonkind would declare a 'Holy War' on the Elves after finding out about the Dracorage Mythal. In Elminster's Daughter, we see a group of dragons, both metallic and chromatic, banding together to stop a common threat (Vangerdehast). That was just one wizard... do you have any idea what they would do to Evermeet if the Dragons found out? Even their own Dragonrider Dragons would turn on them....
Okay - lets go over this again...
You said it was stupid...
I agreed with you...
-Yes. Neither one of us like it.
NOW you are defending it...
-No, I am correcting your mistaken take on things. I don't have to like the concept of Intelligent Design to tell a person that supposedly G-d created the world in six days, and not seven.
-The Mythal itself isn't offensive and doesn't provoke. Instead, when the specific conditions are met, it casts that spell, that effects all Dragons within it's bounds. Nothing provocative about that. That's just how it works.
You do realize that GOOD metallic dragons are equally effected, right?...do you have any idea what they would do to Evermeet if the Dragons found out? Even their own Dragonrider Dragons would turn on them....
-Yes, this is Derren's entire argument about how Elves are evil and whatever else it was that he used to say. By the facts, things cannot be reconciled without a lot of flattening the edges. Which is why I say, every single time it comes up, that it's just bad lore, and that one shouldn't attempt to fully rectify it with preexisting lore, because either way, you are going to come up with a result that isn't entirely reflective or correct concerning the relationship between Elves and Dragons.
I wish some of these authors would actually try to learn about the setting....
Hey, Paul S. Kemp does not deserve that sort of derision, he was on that project, and his Ervis Cale series is one of my favorites of the Realms.
On another note, does anyone else find it odd that many of the books that they decided to move the release date from May so that they could be more spread out ended up clumped together for November releases? They don't seem to have actually spread out the releases, just moved them all to a pre-Christmas clump of releases.
Which is why I say, every single time it comes up, that it's just bad lore, and that one shouldn't attempt to fully rectify it with preexisting lore, because either way, you are going to come up with a result that isn't entirely reflective or correct concerning the relationship between Elves and Dragons.
Can you also declare the Time of Troubles to be 'bad lore' that doesn't accurately reflect the nature of the gods of Faerun?
'Cause I would totally back you on that.
On another note, does anyone else find it odd that many of the books that they decided to move the release date from May so that they could be more spread out ended up clumped together for November releases?
-No, not really. Paul himself said that he believes this was done to his novel to give people time to 'digest' all of the new information in the 4e FRCS. Other than his book, there aren't really other books on the slate to be published, that haven't been given definite release dates. Only Reclaimation.
Can you also declare the Time of Troubles to be 'bad lore' that doesn't accurately reflect the nature of the gods of Faerun?
'Cause I would totally back you on that.
-I liked the Time of Troubles, in theory, so sorry, no can do.
-No, not really. Paul himself said that he believes this was done to his novel to give people time to 'digest' all of the new information in the 4e FRCS. Other than his book, there aren't really other books on the slate to be published, that haven't been given definite release dates. Only Reclaimation.
LOL. Maybe it just happens to be that the two books that I was greatly anticipating and checked on that this happened to...
-Geeze, why is it that I have to do everything around here... :: grumble grumble ::
-Because your the Master of the Obvious!!!;)
18D
*clip* As a source of lore...No way, Jose. You can drive the QE2 through some of the loopholes in that trilogy.
Considering she's being retired to become a floating, stationary hotel in Dubai? Those are some wide loopholes...
To me, the whole "Time of Troubles" thing made for a fairly interesting trilogy, and I'll admit there was a certain appeal to it - that is, playing the ToT in an Epic level FR game locally might've been fun.
-The exact specifics of what happened during the Time of Troubles, I don't particularly like too much. The overarching concept behind it- that the deities turn them into mortals for a limited time- is a concept that I like.
LOL. Maybe it just happens to be that the two books that I was greatly anticipating and checked on that this happened to...
-Same here. Two of the remaining three Forgotten Realms books that I think are worthwhile are being released late in this year, and the major one, Reclaimation, has completely disappeared.
-Because your the Master of the Obvious!!!;)
18D
-I didn't choose my mantle.
Considering she's being retired to become a floating, stationary hotel in Dubai? Those are some wide loopholes...
-The QM2, then? Whichever one it is, I know there is a QE, and a QM. Every so often, when it's here, I see it in port when I am on my way to school, when I'm at my mother's house.
-And, it's going to Dubai, huh? That's a shame. More tourist dollars for them, and not us (us being either England or the U.S.).
-But, yes, the holes are very wide.
-Not yet. He's the only member of the Dark Seldarine who hasn't been "dealt" with yet in the Lady Penitent books. As Ascendency of the Last is due out in June, and this matches the blurb in AGHotR where Ghaunadaur leaves the Demonweb Pits...
When I read and reread the two books out at the moment, I finally realized the pattern of who was dying off in the prologues/epilogues and which pieces on the sava board represented specific people...and how in Ascendency of the Last there is only one drow pantheon god left to go good-bye...either dead or being kicked out of the pantheon, I have no clue. I feel bad for Ghaunadaur a bit. Kieranselee was simply forgotten, Vhaeraun was chopped up to tiny pieces and sent to the Astral Plane, and Selvatarm got his head "lopped" off when Lolth destroyed his sava piece. Wonder what will happen to Ghaunadaur.
Wonder what will happen to Ghaunadaur.
-Lolth attempts to destoy Ghaundadaur, but it proves to be more than Lolth thought it to be, and Ghaundadaur spurns Lolth's attempts to subsume it. It then abandons the Demonweb Pits for the Deep Caverns.
And he says "go get your own stuff, bio_ch! I'm leaving your multi-legged _ss!" :P
Or something lie that.....
If Elminster sired Zaknafein, who is it that sired Elminster?
AND if Elminster sired Zaknafein who sired Drizzt, Drizzt wouldn't likely be full drow...right?
Don't you love genetics in the fantasy world?
If Elminster was able to spend several years as a female, I don't think he would have much trouble at all posing as a Male Drow.
As long as he was in the form of a Drow when conception occurred, Zaknafein would be 100% Drow, despite having a human parent.
Elminster is known to "get his Freak on", and he has a well-documented case of 'Underdark Fever'. ;)
And Eminster's father was Elthryn Aumar, a Prince of Athalanter.
In other words, she tries to "kill him and take his stuff". ;)
And he says "go get your own stuff, bio_ch! I'm leaving your multi-legged _ss!" :P
Or something lie that.....
-In the vernacular, yes.
Plus, its pretty much the only thing about 4e that makes me laugh every time I read it. :P
-In the vernacular, yes.
:heehee
In other words, she tries to "kill him and take his stuff". ;)
And he says "go get your own stuff, bio_ch! I'm leaving your multi-legged _ss!" :P
Or something lie that.....
If Elminster was able to spend several years as a female, I don't think he would have much trouble at all posing as a Male Drow.
As long as he was in the form of a Drow when conception occurred, Zaknafein would be 100% Drow, despite having a human parent.
Elminster is known to "get his Freak on", and he has a well-documented case of 'Underdark Fever'. ;)
And Eminster's father was Elthryn Aumar, a Prince of Athalanter.
who said those weren't rhetorical questions? oh well...thats still some nice info =D
So thats not just 'Silver Fire' the old dude is shooting from his 'wand'? ;)
I mean we already have Karsites, so it wouldn't be a first.
-Those bastards are in no way whatsoever related to me. Their claims have yet to be proven in court, and as such, should not be taken for truth.
-The exact specifics of what happened during the Time of Troubles, I don't particularly like too much. The overarching concept behind it- that the deities turn them into mortals for a limited time- is a concept that I like.
Same here. Besides, I loved the Baldur's Gate games and the story arc behind them, and that story is one that is heavily based in the ToT story (no reason to make Bhaalspawn if Bhaal wasn't going to get killed).
Same here. Besides, I loved the Baldur's Gate games and the story arc behind them, and that story is one that is heavily based in the ToT story (no reason to make Bhaalspawn if Bhaal wasn't going to get killed).
-While I haven't played the games, though the knowledge I've learned of them via osmosis, they sound like really good games.
I just wanted to use the "Kill them and take their stuff" line that the 4e team loves so much. It explains so much about thier mentality. :D
Plus, its pretty much the only thing about 4e that makes me laugh every time I read it. :P
Whoah. Wait a second. Are you saying that the 4e team says the point of D&D is to 'Kill them and take their stuff'?
Are you saying that the 4e team says the point of D&D is to 'Kill them and take their stuff'?
-In some people's games, sure. I know in the games I run, I try to make it a bit more 'civilized' than that. Sometimes my players (some of them) respond. Othertimes, they (some) don't.
I'm so lucky to have a group of players who don't kill everything they see, even if it has stats.
-Yes, yes you are. I'm now a player in an awesome group, though!
Whoah. Wait a second. Are you saying that the 4e team says the point of D&D is to 'Kill them and take their stuff'?
When the developers talked about the scout they said the ranger kills him and took his stuff as a halfjest. The same was said about the knight's abilities being split between the pally and fighter.
I'm not being negative here, BTW - this just means that they are only giving us rules for combat situations, and are leaving ALL the RP stuff up to the GM.
Thats a good thing, IMHO.
I know a lot of people are upset with that, but I have always made rules up on the fly, rather then wasting time going through all the books to find the appropriate situation modifiers. I think the flow of the game is far more important in having fun, then sticking to the rules like some @nal prig.
I've only run across a bare handful of players who just kill everything in sight...
-I have one in the game I DM, and there are two in one of the groups where I am a player in. It give me, a LG Morninglord, a hard time. Sigh...
-While I haven't played the games, though the knowledge I've learned of them via osmosis, they sound like really good games.
They are really great games, and I still highly recommend them to you.
Great Realms flavor, too.-Yes, yes you are. I'm now a player in an awesome group, though!
Me too!:D
They are really great games, and I still highly recommend them to you.
-I'll get around to them one day, I swear. I don't have the first, but I do have the second, Shadows of Amn, or whatever it was.
Me too!:D
-Group hug!
-I'll get around to them one day, I swear. I don't have the first, but I do have the second, Shadows of Amn, or whatever it was.
I would recommend getting the first one, as well (and all the expansions). After so many years, you can get it super cheap, and I think the story arc is best experienced in order.
-Group hug!
:D !
I would recommend getting the first one, as well (and all the expansions). After so many years, you can get it super cheap, and I think the story arc is best experienced in order.
-I'd never start something in the middle. It's just not right.
:D !
:D
Since the new rules are being expressly written around encounters, and not RPing, then yes, the idea is to kill things and take their stuff.
I'm not being negative here, BTW - this just means that they are only giving us rules for combat situations, and are leaving ALL the RP stuff up to the GM.
Thats a good thing, IMHO.
I know a lot of people are upset with that, but I have always made rules up on the fly, rather then wasting time going through all the books to find the appropriate situation modifiers. I think the flow of the game is far more important in having fun, then sticking to the rules like some @nal prig.
I don;t know. It could be good, and it could be bad. If you encourage hack n' slash you're gonna get that. I've seen it happen in RPGs, both P&P and on the computer. People forget the RP stands for Role Playing, and get a whole mentality against it. Try Role Playing on a WoW RP server and see what reaction you get form most people. Same thing with Everquest and even DDO. And it happens at the gaming table too. When all that is mentioned in the book is the encounter and combat system, without even a mention of RP, then new players will focus on the encounters.
I remeber seeing the sample session in the 1st Ed DMG, and reading through it, going out and looking for gorups who played like that rather than just combat. My group still says "I squash the nasty thing with my mace!" and laughs. Our RP has matured since the days of 1st Ed, but we still RP first and roll dice second.
They are really great games, and I still highly recommend them to you.
Yea, BG and BG 2 with their expansions, were the best D&D computer games since the Gold Boxed Pool of Radience and its successors
Yea, BG and BG 2 with their expansions, were the best D&D computer games since the Gold Boxed Pool of Radience and its successors
-I didn't have a computer "back then", nor was I even aware of the existence of the Forgotten Realms, so...
Three are generic D&D, and one's Darksun, but I forget if the fifth was FR or RL. All of them run on DOS, and I was already beyond that when I got the 'collector's set' for X-mas, so I just put it away.
I'm definately going to have to get NWN though. I have BG from someone, but it doesn't run right in XP.
Also, I RP in WoW, but most others don't. I don't bother with 'speaking old-style', but I try to act 'in character', depending on which alt I'm playing. That means if I'm on my Pally, I never say no to a help request - that sort of thing.
And my Night Elf rogue Ninjas everbody.
Had fun playing all day yesterday... I decided to be an Orc this time out. Lord Karsus got me in the mood. :D
NWN I'd recommend, though take the included campaigns with a bucket of salt when it comes to adhering to FR lore. NWN2 is better about it, but still kind of lacking. The MotB expansion I'd highly recommend.
I'm definately going to have to get NWN though. I have BG from someone, but it doesn't run right in XP.
-Neverwinter Nights...A cool game, especially the expansion pack, Shadows of Undrentide.
Show
Loved the part when you visit Myrkul's corpse in the Astral. And when you get the first time to the Veil Theater's Shadow Plane Portal if you have enough Spellcraft ranks the player character can say: "I'm tired of Shadows" (not that short but it's the essence of his text)
That line sure as hell makes me think they at least noticed it.
Designers take note: Even other designers have noticed you are over-doing it! :P
P.s, I suggest we keep this thread up near the top of the forum in the coming month. No doubt the new players that WoTC expect to flood in will come visit this forum, so let's try to keep them informed, eh?
NWN2 was made by Obsidian Entertainment, not Bioware.
Thanks for the heads-up. ;)
NWN I'd recommend, though take the included campaigns with a bucket of salt when it comes to adhering to FR lore. NWN2 is better about it, but still kind of lacking. The MotB expansion I'd highly recommend.
And of course, if you download all the various mods for those games, you can get endless hours of enjoyment. So by buying those games, you have the potential to play hundreds of games, mostly for free (the premium mods cost money, but not much).
NWN2 was made by Obsidian Entertainment, not Bioware. ;)
If Obsidian does NWN2 (which it does) then why are the NWN2 forums on bioware.com???
Oh well...anyone NOT going to use 4E in their campaigns? That's probably a stupid question. :P
If Obsidian does NWN2 (which it does) then why are the NWN2 forums on bioware.com???
-Bioware developed the first game. Obsidian developed the second.
Oh well...anyone NOT going to use 4E in their campaigns? That's probably a stupid question. :P
-In this specific thread? Yeah...;)
anyone think drizzt is gonna get screwed? (if only greater gods live, mielikki dies)
-No, because he's Drizzt.
Godhod doesn't really faze him, though, because he was already tougher then them. :P
Drizzt has no problem - he becomes a Greater God when all the Orcs start worshipping him over Gruumsh. :D
Godhod doesn't really faze him, though, because he was already tougher then them. :P
lmao...the orcs worship obould i think...after the fall of grgush (or w/e his name is) and obould saying that path is not the way..
lmao...the orcs worship obould i think...after the fall of grgush (or w/e his name is) and obould saying that path is not the way..
Still got the rest of the Orc pantheon (Baghtru, ilneval, Luthic, Shargaas etc). And Gruumsh still exists, sort of.
Still got the rest of the Orc pantheon (Baghtru, ilneval, Luthic, Shargaas etc). And Gruumsh still exists, sort of.
-For now. In the future? Who knows?
The Elves will worship Lloth, Demon-Queen of Shadows. :P
Sounds about what I understood the case to be Rauric, though its a bit hazy on how that's going to actually function.
Greater gods can survive without help. Lesser and other gods need the Greater gods support and protection from the Planestastrophy so they don't die.
-That's presupposing that these Orcish deities are their own entities, and not "faces" worn by other deities, like is being done, we believe, with other Demihuman deities, via retcon.
In 5e, the Orcs will worship Corellon three-eye (after he absorbs Gruumsh).
The Elves will worship Lloth, Demon-Queen of Shadows. :P
No, no, no! She's the Demon-Queen of the Shadowfell!
I mean, yeah, sure, it's the exact same thing, but c'mon, they spent 1500 man-hours coming up with the new name!
If Obsidian does NWN2 (which it does) then why are the NWN2 forums on bioware.com???
Because Bioware has more resources than Obsidian because it is a bigger company, and there is already an established NWN (1 & 2) community there that they are being nice to by allowing them to have a central location.
That was a bit garbled, but I hope you are able to get the gist of it.
Oh well...anyone NOT going to use 4E in their campaigns? That's probably a stupid question. :P
My group is not planning on switching to 4e for 2+ years.
anyone think drizzt is gonna get screwed?
There are no signs of that happening, at least if by "screwed", you mean "dead".
Drizz't
There's no apostrophes in Drizzt! Think of it as... there's no apostrophes in loser. *Nods*
He made so much money off the deal, that he was able to buy an apostrophe for his name, thus becoming even cooler. Someday he hopes to change the 'i' to a 'ï' or a even a 'î' (dare he dream?)
There's no apostrophes in Drizzt! Think of it as... there's no apostrophes in loser. *Nods*
-Someone put an apostrophe in 'Drizzt'!?
-Someone put an apostrophe in 'Drizzt'!?
Haven't you noticed the "drizz't" thing going around for the past few months?
Maybe he got so emo the "t" in his name cut itself.
Haven't you noticed the "drizz't" thing going around for the past few months?
-No.
Drizz't
How can you reasonably put an apostraphe in Drizzt's name!?!?
The only time it's okay is if you are writing Do'Urden, otherwise keep out the apostraphes!Death to those who dare to change Drizzt's name! It belongs to R. A. Salvatore...unless you were given permission. ;)
Haven't you noticed the "drizz't" thing going around for the past few months?
Maybe he got so emo the "t" in his name cut itself.
That's a pretty good explanation! And i've noticed the "drizz't" thingy. Think it's a disease. Now, if Zz'tdri just dyes his hair black and starts wearing black and red stripes...
How can you reasonably put an apostraphe in Drizzt's name!?!?
-You can't. The people who do that are unreasonable...
I hear we get a Hyphen at Excarch! :D
That's a pretty good explanation! And i've noticed the "drizz't" thingy. Think it's a disease. Now, if Zz'tdri just dyes his hair black and starts wearing black and red stripes...
Well, he could always go Euro-goth. White is the new black;)
-Neverwinter Nights...A cool game, especially the expansion pack, Shadows of Undrentide.
Some nice online servers too.
Some nice online servers too.
-Never played it online.
-Never played it online.
Your missing out.
Didn't much care for NWN online play... don't really like MMO's either, so it could just be I'm antisocial unless its face to face.
Hmmm. Considering the Devs of 4e have made no secret that they're going for more of an MMO feel to d&D, guess this means you won;t like 4e then :D
Your missing out.
I disagree, I much prefer single-player games. NWN has tons of great single-player modules, too.
To each, their own.
Didn't much care for NWN online play... don't really like MMO's either, so it could just be I'm antisocial unless its face to face.
I'm kinda like that, too--I just have no desire to play a multiplayer game with total strangers (who could wind up ruining my fun).
Hmmm. Considering the Devs of 4e have made no secret that they're going for more of an MMO feel to d&D, guess this means you won;t like 4e then :D
Not necessarily, because you'd be playing 4E D&D with other flesh and blood individuals, not total strangers online (unless you want to). It's not an MMORPG.
I'm kinda like that, too--I just have no desire to play a multiplayer game with total strangers (who could wind up ruining my fun).
-That happened to me, once. In late December, The Lord of the Rings online game was having a promotion, and I had, like two weeks of free gametime, or something to that effect. After I finished the tutorial adventure, and trekked out into the "wide world" out there, I was running around, leveling up by killing a bunch of wolves in an area. I'd leave, and then come back and kill them again, because they respawned. As I was doing this once, some random guy who was quite a few levels higher than me started following me around and killing all of the enemies in the area, so I didn't get any EXP.
-That happened to me, once. In late December, The Lord of the Rings online game was having a promotion, and I had, like two weeks of free gametime, or something to that effect. After I finished the tutorial adventure, and trekked out into the "wide world" out there, I was running around, leveling up by killing a bunch of wolves in an area. I'd leave, and then come back and kill them again, because they respawned. As I was doing this once, some random guy who was quite a few levels higher than me started following me around and killing all of the enemies in the area, so I didn't get any EXP.
What a jerk.
I know not all players would be jerks, but I'm the type who doesn't want to bother, especially since I prefer single-players CRPGs anyway.
Not necessarily, because you'd be playing 4E D&D with other flesh and blood individuals, not total strangers online (unless you want to). It's not an MMORPG.
You sure about that? have you looked at how much they are hyping up DDI and their Gaming Table? The point behind the Gaming Table? And not to mention how much of everything they say about 4e goes BACK to DDI. They sure are TRYING to make it an MMORPG
I think they need to move away from this thought altogether, and realize P&P games are NOT MORPGs.
Although I would definately play in the "Realms Online" (classical setting, of course). :D
Didn't Stormreach tank?
I think they need to move away from this thought altogether, and realize P&P games are NOT MORPGs.
Although I would definately play in the "Realms Online" (classical setting, of course). :D
DDO did not tank. It's not WoW, but ti's still going strong. I recently began playing myself, and got a few friends to leave WoW and play. It's actually really fun, and form me, this is alot, cuz I'm not really an Eberron fan. They got 5 or 6 servers and are releasing their next module soon.
How can you reasonably put an apostraphe in Drizzt's name!?!?
Death to those who dare to change Drizzt's name! It belongs to R. A. Salvatore...unless you were given permission. ;)
Actually, Lelilie, according to the rules as written, if Elminster did that and cast the shapechange spell, he would still be a full born drow. Have a nice day. See also an old thread about men getting pregnant that offended everyone that follows the same general chain of logic.
See also an old thread about men getting pregnant that offended everyone that follows the same general chain of logic.
-Yes, and remember what was said about that...;)
-Oh, and speaking of online games, I just saw the Southpark episode "Make Love, Not Warcraft". Funny, funny, funny.
Didn't Stormreach tank?
I think they need to move away from this thought altogether, and realize P&P games are NOT MORPGs.
Although I would definately play in the "Realms Online" (classical setting, of course). :D
No, we have around 100k subscribers, but "most" of the players you will run into are old PnP'ers, and tend to be a more mature group, and everything is instanced so you can't have what happened to L_K.
I have been playing since beta and have thouroughly enjoyed it. It doesn't follow PnP rules to the letter, but it does a fairly nice job of staying on the same page. The usual best things I hear from others about the game are the real time combat and character customization. Graphics and story lines are usually a close second.
Mod 7 is due for release before the end of May and will include Monks as a playable class (finally), and some basic crafting, plus about 2 new raids and the quests to support them and even some new mid and low level quests. The level cap is 16 right now.
I think many on these forums would likely enjoy the game, and if you ever try it out, send me a PM and I will tell you what server I am on and will help you out with some tips on character creation (because they use a point buy system and it is important to max out you primary stat), and will be glad to help you out with anything I can.
...and everything is instanced so you can't have what happened to L_K.
-No underscore. ;)
-No underscore. ;)
I hear and obey Mighty One:D
Hmmm. Considering the Devs of 4e have made no secret that they're going for more of an MMO feel to d&D, guess this means you won;t like 4e then :D
Lol, I pointed that out elsewhere and was indirectly called dumb and stupid.
I don't see D&D becoming 'more like Magic' or 'more like Warcraft' as being insults*, so long as it's still D&D, just enhanced by game concepts that have obviously attracted millions of fans to those games. Win win, if done well.
*despite loathing MtG as a game, and not having been terribly impressed with WoW. Then again, I'd love to see the world / monsters / concepts of MtG re-envisioned as a D&D setting, using d20 rules... The setting is vivid, despite my dislike of collectible games.
Right now Warlocks get a choice of three - how long before it becomes Five? ;)
Also, I'm willing to bet that latter splat-books will show us how to combine power sources (very much like 'Duel Lands').
You know, its funny, but I keep asking myself why the decided to Nuke FR for the 4e rules, when the MtG setting was already all set up for it, and the fluff/art for it is excellent and already exists.
Just so strange not to use something good you already have, and instead destroy something else good you have to try and make it something its not.
Its a polarized world we're living in...
-Pheh, you're not kidding.
Probably best not to go into my wife's theory about size of masculinity (or lack thereof) on the part of some...
-You know, two days ago, I was just reading an interesting passage in a psychology book dealing with the lengths men go to to avenge real or percieved slights against their own masculinity, and the psychological effects said slights have.
Anyway, I keep expecting Chris Perkins to show up in this thread with a simple "Your Welcome". ;)
-You know, two days ago, I was just reading an interesting passage in a psychology book dealing with the lengths men go to to avenge real or percieved slights against their own masculinity, and the psychological effects said slights have.
I must have reached a state of mind that made me immune to those slights because they don't bother me at all. At much I can respond with a witty comment that attacks the offender on another subject, like how much intelligent they are.
So, the 'Chosen of Mystra' were really Ed's p___s?
-Subconsciously, perhaps. If one wants to attribute Elminster as being a stand-in for Ed Greenwood, there you have it. Elminster regularly "has his way" with certain Chosen of Mystra, as well as other women. Wish fufillment.
I must have reached a state of mind that made me immune to those slights because they don't bother me at all. At much I can respond with a witty comment that attacks the offender on another subject, like how much intelligent they are.
-All people have a breaking point. I, too, can brush most comments like that off rather easily, but as things pile up, and increase in severity, so to speak...
-All people have a breaking point. I, too, can brush most comments like that off rather easily, but as things pile up, and increase in severity, so to speak...
i usually find such things amusing! Like, if someone says i'm sh1te in bed or suffer from premature ejaculation, i'll go:
Well, you know how sex's a competition? You try to reach your orgasm first and tough luck if you don't. Not lost once so far!
i usually find such things amusing! Like, if someone says i'm sh1te in bed or suffer from premature ejaculation, i'll go:
Well, you know how sex's a competition? You try to reach your orgasm first and tough luck if you don't. Not lost once so far!
-Humor is, indeed, a psychological defense. That's why people laugh at funerals, or smile when they are in trouble, or whatever. I know I do that. Sucks when I am accused of doing something, and I smile, snicker and laugh, even though I didn't actually do whatever it was.
Dunno... stuff like that usually doesn't bother me. I have a wife who loves me, why should I care what other people think of me so long as I know that is sort of the mindset I've developed.
You have a wife!? So you've used me! *Sniffles*
Hope GD'll take me back!
Of course I used you. Don't sound so surprised, its not like I've ever pretended to be anything other than :evillaugh
lol, and your avatar seems all the more appropriate :D
"I've got a lair!" :D
I don't think I ever ran in a game where the players abused the monsters THAT way...
You 'West Coast' folks sure are 'open-minded'.
*Cries*
Hope GD'll take me back!
-GD is gone, man. When was the last time he posted? And, he doesn't even talk to me anymore. It's always with the Away Message with him...
-The only way I'll forgive him is if he's been using these past four-six months or so to develop a time machine- which, with him, it's quite possible, even though I personally don't believe in time travel- to turn back the hands of time and prevent the Spellplague.
By the by, is that a suggestion that we do something... wrong... to Dan if he ever shows up again?
According to Hawkins, time doesn't move at all, we do. Everything from every WHEN co-exists at the same time, but resonates at a slightly different electro-magnetic frequency.
Someday, shifting your 'temporal viewpoint' will be as simple as 'dialing a radio'.
Anyhow, I miss GDan, and KtM... I'm sure others will also leave over the next year as the site gets converted over to the new setting - Us Grognards are like dinosaurs.
But there's still CK and the Vault... so we have other homes we can migrate to. I'll leave this place for the 'Gleemax' generation.
In a residual Haunting, the same 'scene' replays itself over and over again. It has been discovered that in the case of most residual-style hauntings, there are large quantities of Quartz and limestone beneath the area.
It also the case that there are recordable fluctuations in the elctro-magnetic field in the area of these 'hauntings'.
Are ghosts real? Who knows... but what if a lot of what people are seeing is just a temporary 'breaking down' of the normal 'walls' between the 'slices of time' (dimensional 'phases')?
What if UFO sightings work the same way? They also affect electro-magnetic fields - could they just be US, coming back to take a look around, like kids on a fieldtrip?
The truth is out there...
But I digress... and have gone WAY off-topic. ;)
So, yeah... should we blame aliens for destroying the Realms then, to sort of bring it around? :D
-Subconsciously, perhaps. If one wants to attribute Elminster as being a stand-in for Ed Greenwood, there you have it. Elminster regularly "has his way" with certain Chosen of Mystra...
Only the Simbul.
But there's still CK and the Vault... so we have other homes we can migrate to. I'll leave this place for the 'Gleemax' generation.
Not sufficiently fond of Candlekeep but that's the plan, well sort of. Barring an excessive amount of posters simply ignoring 4E, there won't be much of interest here.
Only the Simbul.
-I didn't want to go naming names there, but there you go.
Time Travel is not only possible, its quite simple when you understand the nature of time. ;)
According to Hawkins, time doesn't move at all, we do. Everything from every WHEN co-exists at the same time, but resonates at a slightly different electro-magnetic frequency.
I didn't remember saying any of that, and then I realized you where probably talking about Stephen Hawking. I think. Anyways, I actually sort of agree with this theory. However, delving into it would require explaining my theological/metaphysical viewpoint, and would be off topic.
- and if you believe that everything coexists at different 'frequencies', you can explain away everything from UFO and Ghosts to Bigfoot and Loch Ness sightings to Deja Vue.
And as to why all of this pertains to 4e FR - HP Lovecraft was one of the very first (and most famous) writers to describe alternate dimensions that exist 'just outside of our vision' - weird things that you occasionally catch out of the corner of your eye.
In 4e terminology, these dimensions would equate to the Feywild, Shadowfel, and, of course, the Far Realms.
And the scarey apart about these 'other worlds' is that when you do notice them, they begin to notice YOU back.
And the scarey apart about these 'other worlds' is that when you do notice them, they begin to notice YOU back.
-What are we, in Russia?
- and if you believe that everything coexists at different 'frequencies', you can explain away everything from UFO and Ghosts to Bigfoot and Loch Ness sightings to Deja Vue.
Very convincingly, though?
I'd much prefer, say, a dead Bigfoot, or a Bigfoot baby. Stuff like that never seems to show up, though...
-What are we, in Russia?
No, and I never read any Lovercraft, to tell you the truth, but I have seen several movies based on his works.
The creatures of 'The Far Realms' exist alongside of us, and don't notice us, the same way we don't notice them - its as if we are just 'ghosts' to one another. However, once someone, for whatever reason, is able to 'see' into this other world, their 'awreness' is projected onto that 'reality', and those creatures notice him to.
Its kind of how the monsters on the Astral and Ethereal planes always worked in prior editions of D&D - most of those creatures can attack into the Prime Material, but don't bother. Once you enter their realm, however, they 'notice the intrusion', and you become fair game.
And if you don't think strange creatures could exist all around us without our knowing, take a look at some of the video concerning 'Rods' over at YouTube.
The universe is a vast place, and we understand so very little of it, and our senses only allow us to view a very tiny portion of it.
Same would apply to Nessie - these images, for whatever reason, become 'imprinted' on a certain locale, and 'resonate' into other eras.
-The Loch Ness Monster was proven to be a hoax on the deathbed of one of the individuals who took the original photograph.
No, and I never read any Lovercraft, to tell you the truth, but I have seen several movies based on his works.
-It was a joke. You've never heard those jokes before? "In Russia, you don't drive cars. Cars drive YOU!". "In Russia, you don't volunteer. Russia volunteers YOU!"
-Yeah, the way you said, "And the scarey apart about these 'other worlds' is that when you do notice them, they begin to notice YOU back." made me think of that. "In Russia, you don't see planes. Planes see YOU!".
-Geeze, tough crowd...
-The Loch Ness Monster was proven to be a hoax on the deathbed of one of the individuals who took the original photograph.
-It was a joke. You've never heard those jokes before? "In Russia, you don't drive cars. Cars drive YOU!". "In Russia, you don't volunteer. Russia volunteers YOU!"
-Yeah, the way you said, "And the scarey apart about these 'other worlds' is that when you do notice them, they begin to notice YOU back." made me think of that. "In Russia, you don't see planes. Planes see YOU!".
-Geeze, tough crowd...
I really don't feel like WotC is back stabbing anyone or trying to alienate veteran players. They are trying to keep their product fresh while trying to attract NEW and MORE players. Relics of old D&D and the FR setting still have old products, rules, and reference material that nobody is forcing us to give up. I love the fact that a lot of the older material is archived on the web site. We reference it on a regular basis and can easily enjoy D&D the way we remember it and enjoy it.
-The Loch Ness Monster was proven to be a hoax on the deathbed of one of the individuals who took the original photograph.
There was more then one photograph, and every year hundreds of people still claim to spot the creature, but it always poorly seen and blurry.
Which leads me to believe that all these people are having the same hallucination, or somehow, a prehistoruc image is replaying itself on the surface - like an old, over-used videotape, the image has become 'worn down', and details can't be made out.
Like when people see 'Ghosts' of the past, or 'Shadow People' - after images 'burned in' to the surrounding environment?
I'm not saying any of that is true - its just a theory of mine I've been working on for the past thirty years, that is ever-evolving with new data and scientific breakthroughs. So far, every 'new thing' we learn about the Universe and para-normal phenomena drops into my theory and even supports it., but that certainly doesn't make it true. Like I said earlier, we don't have 1/1000th of 1% of the facts in about the world around us, so 'the answer' we are all seeking will probably never be fully understood. Even Einstein's Theory of Relativity was just the 'tip of the Iceberg' when it comes to how everything in the Universe is related to Everything else.
Its the journey that makes it interesting, though, not the destination. ;)
There was more then one photograph, and every year hundreds of people still claim to spot the creature, but it always poorly seen and blurry.
-Yes, just like people claim to see 'Flying Saucers' even though the original individual who saw the first sighting that had nation-wide media coverage said he saw a 'Flying Crescent', which was later incorrectly transcribed into the papers as 'Flying Saucer'.
He said it moved like a "saucer skipping over the water", and the local newspaper (there was no TV back then) incorrectly reported him as describing them as 'Flying Saucers", which he did not.
Actual, the newer versions are triangular - the 'Aliens' stopped using the saucer models some years ago. :P
Havineg VERY recently watched a documentary about that (as in, three days ago), the name 'flying Saucer' was derived from the way the craft moved, as described by that original witness you speak of.
He said it moved like a "saucer skipping over the water", and the local newspaper (there was no TV back then) incorrectly reported him as describing them as 'Flying Saucers", which he did not.
-Correct.
But Nessie's real! She's got an American cousin called Messy, i think.
-Well, you are an expert, I think. Have you ever seen the Loch Ness monster?
-And, how can we all relate this back to Faerûn?
But Nessie's real! She's got an American cousin called Messy, i think.
Of course she's real... she just doesn't exist in our time.
What people are 'experiencing' are after-images 'burned-into' the locale.
I remember years ago reading a very good short story about a Knight facing a dragon. He awaited the beast, who came by the same way every night, with its evilly glowing eyes and steamy breath.
After the Train ran him over, the two engineers said "Holy Crap! Did you just see that?!"
To each time, the other appeared as a 'ghostly image'. Also, think of the movie The Others -are the ghosts and creatures we see really the ghosts, or are we? Its all a matter of perception, and perception is simply the way the human brain interprets the stimulus. Alter the way the stimulus relates to the brain, and you alter that person's reality.
On a related Note:
There have been some very interesting tests done on Hypnotized individuals where they were able to effect that persons individual reality, and the effects change the way they were able to interact with the 'real world' (like seeing in a pitch-black room).
Stop believing in the physical world - its only an illusion. Once you realize that, your mind opens up. Like Neo in the Matrix - you don't try to bend the spoon, that would be impossible. What you must do is realize there really is no spoon (and then you can alter the way it appears to people's perceptions).
I can't do any of things I'm talking about, because I can't help having my preconceptions overule my logic - but if we were able to throw all that away, imagine what the world would be like if everyone's potential was unlocked?
Zen plays a big part in my beliefs, but I am too 'impure' to make use of most of it. I also let these (my RW beliefs) play a major role in how I run D&D - Illusions are real, until someone disbelieves them... thats in the rules. ;)
How does this relate to the topic of this thread? Well... if we all believe 4e FR is going to suck, then it doesn't really matter if it does or not. We've convinced ourselves of THAT reality, and nothing short of a miracle is going to change our minds.
Ergo, the belief in something becomes real to us...
Thats also how Faith works, BTW.
Thats a small part of what I'm talking about (and one of the few things I can do, but not nearly as good as Chris).
The one where he made the London Cabby forget where the London Eye was? And the whole friggin time, it was right in the background of the shot, and the Cabby drove around completely lost.
I love when he convinces someone of something, and totally screws up their mind... and the whole time, he insists there is NO such thing as magic or Mental Powers.
What he doesn't understand (or maybe he does), is that he is using real magic in a very limited form. When he 'palms' something, the audience is convinced that hand is empty, so, for all intents and purposes, the hand IS empty... even though its not. The only thing that really matters is how people percieve something.
Its also how 'great orators' work, even the Evil ones (like Adolf). If you can convince a large enough group of people that something is true, then it is exactly the same (for that group) as if it was.
And what is magic, then shaping reality to your will?
Like Alediran's quote - you can do anything, as long as you KNOW you can (thats also how 'self affirmations' work - the spoken word is an incredibly powerful tool).
But I've strayed quite a bit from Electro-Magnetic Fields, time travel, and para-normal activity. Even though it is related (through mental manipulation of Reality and it's attendant fields), I think I've gone too far off track for an FR board.
Of course, anything is better then talking about 4e.
-On a completely (un)related note did you know that the original newspaper report that sparked the entire UFO "Flying saucer" ordeal actually got it's reporting incorrect? The original individual who saw the first majorly reported UFO sighting said that he saw crescent-shaped unidentified objects. The news outlet reporting it incorrectly used saucer-shaped, hence "Flying Saucer". And, ever since, people have been claiming to have seen "Flying Saucers", even though the supposed alien ship(s) were crescent-shaped.
The reason it got reported as 'flying saucers' is because he described their movement as being like 'saucers skipping over water'
You ever watch any of the stuff Chris Angel does, when he f__ks with peoples heads?
That's not magic, that's headology. ;)
The reason it got reported as 'flying saucers' is because he described their movement as being like 'saucers skipping over water'
-Yes, we've established that fact. "[The crescents] flew erratic, like a saucer if you skip it across the water.".
-This is the "saucer" that was "seen":
Show
-Not very saucer-like...
-Not very saucer-like...
There was more then one photograph, and every year hundreds of people still claim to spot the creature, but it always poorly seen and blurry.
Of course.
No one ever quite gets a good look, do they?You'll have to forgive me, but I'm very much a skeptic when it comes to cryptozoology (among other things).
-
-This is the "saucer" that was "seen"
I approve of your use of quotation marks, especially for that last word....And the scarey apart about these 'other worlds' is that when you do notice them, they begin to notice YOU back.
How very... Nietzsche.
That's not magic, that's headology. ;)
Define Magic.
It is being able to do the unexplainable, is it not? That means technology is a form of magic, when you don't understand it. I have seen 'real magic' explained away in numerous Sci-Fi novels as just another way of doing things, wheather psionics were involved, or 'super-technology', it all boils down to not knowing how something is done. In fact, the 'Vancian Magic System' we are all so fond of was presented, by the author, as a form of 'super-science', memorizing specific patterns and formulae to alter the world around you. We alter the world around us all the time, from 'AirConditioning' to Japanese scientists turning Lead into Gold (by bombarding it with Electrons).
So, while there is no 'Real Magic', everything has the potential to 'be magical'.
And when it comes right down to it, reality is just the way our senses perceive the various patterns of atoms around us - we know we can change those atoms, using energy, and the human mind IS capable of producing energy that can cause such effects (like pyrokinesis - the ability to speed up molecular motion, causing an object to heat-up, just like the way microwaves work). Since we can change people's perceptions, and thats all reality really is, then we can change reality.
And thats just... Magic. :D
Nietzsche was an alien. :P
Define Magic.
It is being able to do the unexplainable, is it not? That means technology is a form of magic, when you don't understand it. I have seen 'real magic' explained away in numerous Sci-Fi novels as just another way of doing things, wheather psionics were involved, or 'super-technology', it all boils down to not knowing how something is done. In fact, the 'Vancian Magic System' we are all so fond of was presented, by the author, as a form of 'super-science', memorizing specific patterns and formulae to alter the world around you. We alter the world around us all the time, from 'AirConditioning' to Japanese scientists turning Lead into Gold (by bombarding it with Electrons).
So, while there is no 'Real Magic', everything has the potential to 'be magical'.
And when it comes right down to it, reality is just the way our senses perceive the various patterns of atoms around us - we know we can change those atoms, using energy, and the human mind IS capable of producing energy that can cause such effects (like pyrokinesis - the ability to speed up molecular motion, causing an object to heat-up, just like the way microwaves work). Since we can change people's perceptions, and thats all reality really is, then we can change reality.
And thats just... Magic. :D
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.- Arthur C. Clarke.
And I ABHOR Arthur Clarke and his Sci-Fi. However, the quote seems rather appropriate here.
Of course, the beauty and magic of nature has nothing to do with magick. There is the magic of the birth of a healthy child; the magic of true love. There is the magic of getting out of bed in the morning through an act of will. Unfortunately, this only seems to be magic to those who do not have this power. Those of us who can direct our bodies through acts of will too often take this power for granted. We fail to see the wondrousness of simple things, like wiping the sweat from one's brow. We take for granted the act of opening our eyes to feast on the sublimity of glaciers and oceans or the beauty of sunsets or meadows of wild flowers. These are truly magical deeds and, when contemplated, hold enough wonder to fill universes. But for many, it seems, such real magic will never be enough.
Sides, he was the basis for Nazi-ism, so double YUCK
Embracing Neitzche? That self-absorbed, in love with his sister, founder of Ubermensche philospher? YUCK.
Sides, he was the basis for Nazi-ism, so double YUCK
It wasn't exactly Nietzsche's fault that more than thirty years after his death the Nazis stole a term he had coined, twisted it and used it for their own purposes. In fact, Nietzsche's concept of the "
-Some interesting stuff I am reading argues that there is no such thing as perfection, period.
I can buy that.
I'd love to know what you're reading, though.That's because the Paradise was still a material world, perfection can't be achieved in material worlds, the being would need to pass on to higher realms.
I do have a rebuttal to that, but I wonder how wise it would be to continue such a discussion here.
I can buy that.
-Cool. I'll bring the book with me on Saturday, then.
That's because the Paradise was still a material world, perfection can't be achieved in material worlds, the being would need to pass on to higher realms.
-The Garden of Eden wasn't on the material world, else it would have been discovered by now, if it was, in fact, real, and not allegory. The entire assertation is discussing why evil exists, and uses the fact that paradise, the embodiment of perfection, had evil, and thus, wasn't perfect, in defense of the claims that are argued as to why evil exists.
-The Garden of Eden wasn't on the material world, else it would have been discovered by now, if it was, in fact, real, and not allegory. The entire assertation is discussing why evil exists, and uses the fact that paradise, the embodiment of perfection, had evil, and thus, wasn't perfect, in defense of the claims that are argued as to why evil exists.
It wasn't necesarily on Earth but it could've been on another material dimension or even another planet (Mars come to my mind), thus acounting for the reasons it's still out of reach to humanity.
What Rino said, since the idea of it just aggravates me no end and its gonna get ugly should I get involved in any but the most indirect semi-biblical discussion... :P
-What, you gonna uncover your face?
-Get it? Ugly...Your face...Ugh, why do I bother sometimes...:embarrass
That's because the Paradise was still a material world, perfection can't be achieved in material worlds, the being would need to pass on to higher realms. Many trascendentalist philosophies consider that as central to their paths, from Buddhism to Qabbalah.
Have you ever read the Riverworld Series? I HIGHLY recommend it, if you are into that sort of thing. Its like Sci-Fi with a heavy fantasy element, and some pretty deep philosophy thrown into the mix.
Imagine a world where everyone that ever lived is reincarnated at the same time, along the banks of a river on an enormous planet. Its a giant experiment, to see if this time the human race can get it right.
Even JC is walking around confused... until some WWII era Nazis throw him in a detainment camp.
Some very good 'scenes' in the story, like when Samual Clemens (Mark Twain) takes on a Roman Emperor with his Riverboat, or when Cyrano de Bergerac has a sworfight with Sir Richard Burton, both considered the master fencers of their time. Then there's Alice Liddell (grown-up Alice in Wonderland), Odysseus, a caveman, etc...
Anyway, everyone who dies is ressurected the next morning along the banks of the river... except every once in a while, someone doesn't. Somehow, they got it 'right', and were able to 'move on'. Its interesting which philisophical path the author chose as the 'right' one, or at least the closest the humans came to 'perfection'.
Check it out - I think you'd enjoy it.
Have you ever read the Riverworld Series? I HIGHLY recommend it, if you are into that sort of thing. Its like Sci-Fi with a heavy fantasy element, and some pretty deep philosophy thrown into the mix.
Imagine a world where everyone that ever lived is reincarnated at the same time, along the banks of a river on an enormous planet. Its a giant experiment, to see if this time the human race can get it right.
Even JC is walking around confused... until some WWII era Nazis throw him in a detainment camp.
Some very good 'scenes' in the story, like when Samual Clemens (Mark Twain) takes on a Roman Emperor with his Riverboat, or when Cyrano de Bergerac has a sworfight with Sir Richard Burton, both considered the master fencers of their time. Then there's Alice Liddell (grown-up Alice in Wonderland), Odysseus, a caveman, etc...
Anyway, everyone who dies is ressurected the next morning along the banks of the river... except every once in a while, someone doesn't. Somehow, they got it 'right', and were able to 'move on'. Its interesting which philisophical path the author chose as the 'right' one, or at least the closest the humans came to 'perfection'.
Check it out - I think you'd enjoy it.
I haven't read the book, but I've seen a "movie" in Halmark Channel based on it.
-What, you gonna uncover your face?
-Get it? Ugly...Your face...Ugh, why do I bother sometimes...:embarrass
I have no idea why you bother... you need new writers is all I will say on the matter.
-Cool. I'll bring the book with me on Saturday, then.
Wonderful, I'd love to see it.
I have no idea why you bother... you need new writers is all I will say on the matter.
-It's a psychological compulsion. I've given up fighting it lately.
Wonderful, I'd love to see it.
-I put it in my car, to make sure I won't forget it. I even went through the book, to write down the relevant pages.
-I put it in my car, to make sure I won't forget it. I even went through the book, to write down the relevant pages.
Now that's what I call planning ahead. Thanks.
Sure we all create our own reality... but that doesn't stop the train from running you over, so to speak. I'm quite certain there is an objective reality out there, but its very mucked up with the subjective reality we tend to prefer living in.
Dark and Empty,
Thats funny stigger. :P18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
Anyway, now that 4.0 has been on for a while, do you prefer your FR in its previous or current incarnation?
And yet they still insist WE are in the minority.
I guess every single one of the 4e-haters post here on the boards, then.
Hey, a thread called like that managed to almost get to page 100. Not bad :D .
Anyway, now that 4.0 has been on for a while, do you prefer your FR in its previous or current incarnation?
Hey, hello again!
I've been offline from the boards a long time. And I think that question is a good one to answer. And now that 4.0 has been on for a while, I'm even surer that I prefer the Realms in its previous incarnation. I have to say that the current Realms aren't bad, and they could do well as the Core setting, but they aren't as good as they were before.
-I support the Realms no matter the Edition, yet I prefer the 1357 DR Old Grey Box version.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
None of the 'pro-4e' threads get that far.
And yet they still insist WE are in the minority.
I guess every single one of the 4e-haters post here on the boards, then.
To be honest, there's no way of telling who's in the minority. Most of those who are new to 4e FR (and happy with it) are probably not too keen on squabbling with the anti-4gotten-Realms-faction, and what's more: When you're happy with a product, you're much less likely to tell everyone and their dog about it on some message board. If you're disgruntled, however, you may need to vent, to find like-minded people, to set out on a mission to convince beginners of the superiority of 3e / 2e / 1e / whatever, and so on.
DB
Hey, a thread called like that managed to almost get to page 100. Not bad :D .
Anyway, now that 4.0 has been on for a while, do you prefer your FR in its previous or current incarnation?
I am a FR fan since 87 and I am fine with the Realms now. It feels the same as the previous two editions. It is a silly game world where I take a vacation from the real world every so often. Anyway it feels the same to me.
The anti threads go further because of all the bickering and flaming. Simple as that. Positive threads don't always last because the question or topic gets resolved eventually and people move on. Anti-anything threads always last (until Mods close them) because people love to argue, accuse and hate on each other. Simple as that.
To be honest, there's no way of telling who's in the minority. Most of those who are new to 4e FR (and happy with it) are probably not too keen on squabbling with the anti-4gotten-Realms-faction, and what's more: When you're happy with a product, you're much less likely to tell everyone and their dog about it on some message board. If you're disgruntled, however, you may need to vent, to find like-minded people, to set out on a mission to convince beginners of the superiority of 3e / 2e / 1e / whatever, and so on.
DB
QFT.
I've been a member here since 2003, though I did forget my original sign-on during a long hiatus and had to create a new one in 2006. For better or worse, this has always been a forum most prone to lengthy and passionate arguments. There are a lot of bright people here, and those people are very invested in the Forgotten Realms. When intelligent people disagree on a subject for which they are passionate, it can get crazy.
For the most part, the edition-based discussions have ended here in the FR forums. It seems everyone has decided with which ruleset and timeframe they will move forward, and everyone else mostly leaves it alone. I steered clear for months, because I didn't care to read the angry (and mostly unproductive) rants of others. I knew for certain that I wouldn't get any creative inspiration out of such disputes, at any rate.
Naturally, being a fan of the FR, I always find my way back. Personally, I find myself in much the same boat as Rauric. I like the new Realms, just as I liked the old. I've assiduously avoided debates concerning both setting and ruleset. I liked 3.5 and I like 4E. Most of all, I like that the heated debates have just about run their course.;)
Oh, well. I got a bit long-winded. I guess in a way I just wanted to acknowledge and thank those who were unhappy with the recent changes, but who have nonetheless stuck it out and continue to contribute to discussions of the Realms no matter which iteration they play. I respect and appreciate that, gamer to gamer.
Plus, I wanted to play my part in getting this, a thread I no doubt avoided like the plague when it was "hot", to 100 pages.
Anyway, now that 4.0 has been on for a while, do you prefer your FR in its previous or current incarnation?
A 100-page thread, how intimidating. Fortunately, the quoted post provides a solid point for me to jump into such a "venerable" thread ;). Thanks, Shaman.
I definitely prefer the previous incarnation of the Realms. I briefly considered running the classic setting using 4e rules. We ended up sticking with 3.5 rules though, for convenience if nothing else.
The 4e Realms are okay, so long as I think of it as an entirely new setting, unassociated with anything I know of the Realms. For clarity's sake, I've even taken to calling it "The Shattered Realms"-- yeah :P. Trying to consolidate the two incarnations only ticks me off (so I don't do dat).
Anyway, now that 4.0 has been on for a while, do you prefer your FR in its previous or current incarnation?
Well, I've been playing in the 4E Realms since before the FRCG was released up until now.
Based on that, I have to say I don't have a preference either way.
It's all the Realms to me. If I want historical information for my little campaign set in 4E Cormyr, I don't have to worry about what resource to look in. The DDI update article on 4E Cormyr, Volo's Guide to Cormyr (2E AD&D), the Cormyr Saga novels (2E to 3E transition)....they're all part of one great big lore pile I can pick from and use as I see fit.
The big lesson I’ve learned is that all the great sweeping changes just don’t matter one whit when you’re actually playing a D&D game in the Realms. All of that is backstory that doesn’t get in the way of playing the game. In fact, it enhances it.
All those changes are there to set things up for the player's choices on what race and class to play. Just as well, those changes -plus the regular stuff that hasn't changed- are all there to be mined for plot elements, story ideas and adventure hooks for the DM. In that vein, it all works perfectly.
Really, a lot of the complaints about what "happened" to the 4E Realms are so much venting; a whole lot of it is just empty, repetitive and even spurious at times, owing more to people's personal feelings (which are legitimate, but subjective and strictly limited to the individual) and closely held personal grudges against WotC, than to any real factual concern about what can or can't be done in the 4E Realms so far as playing D&D is concerned.
Before certain of you flip out over my last statement: I understand that a lot of the changes have turned some of you off to the Realms. The abrupt end to story arcs not yet explored and the loss of a good percentage of some favorite NPCs (but not all of them) has left some people down, disappointed and even angry.
But all that did was make room for new NPCs, new stories and a new adventures. If someone announced a new novel set in 4E Cormyr, I’d buy it sight unseen. I really enjoy learning how the Realms has changed with the passing of time.
Although Mr_Miscellany asserts that this thread should have ended a long time ago, the fact that it hasn't done so would seem to suggest that the opposition to the changed in 4th edition is very strong amongst the community.
The idea that it's easier now that there's only one sourcebook to look in for 4ed lore is a little unconventional. Many projects exist to consolidate the vast wealth of information on, say, Cormyr, between 1st and 3.5 editions, such as the excellent Grand History, or the wiki (shameless plug, I know). This is a practical solution to a problem that has developed over the years, but rewriting large chunks of the Realms, based on convenience, is not.
The vast amount of lore that made up the Realms prior to 4th edition was more than just an asset to be mined for campaign arcs and BBEGs for PCs to fight. There are whole groups of Realms fans who only read the novels, for example, or simply enjoy learning about the history of this fantasy setting.
While I have no doubt that it's easier for a DM new to the Realms to set a fresh campaign in 4th edition, it's just catering for the lazy. It's just as easy for a DM new to the Realms to set a fresh campaign in 3.5 edition, and just ignore any existing lore as he or she sees fit, but for some reason, this wasn't deemed viable.
Now that this 4th edition has been established, it can't be taken back, unless the entire thing is retconned (which I wouldn't mind at all)! This happens from time to time; the events Terminator 3 movie simply didn't exist as far as the newer television series was concerned. I strongly feel that there was a lot of scope for Wizards to explore the past of the Realms instead. When Bioware wanted to maintain creative freedom during the creation of a Star Wars game (Knights of the Old Republic), they chose to set it 3000 years prior to the movies, when they were unlikely to shake up the timeline, and left the future well alone.
What's done is done I suppose. As far as I am concerned, and this is a view I see repeated across these forums and elsewhere, the 3.5 sourcebook were excellent, came steadily, and were accompanied by some superb material on the Wizards site. The 4th edition has cut off this vital arterial supply of new or updated material, and left me very disappointed.
Still HATE everything they've changed. Read through the 4e books in the store, and felt the urge to wash my hands in bleach afterwards.
*lurker mode on*
I have a feeling they'll have the same ending. ;)
I find sticking with WotC and following 4e FR is much akin to Slim Pickens famous ride in Doctor Stranglove.
I have a feeling they'll have the same ending. ;)
Ouch!
Although Mr_Miscellany asserts that this thread should have ended a long time ago, the fact that it hasn't done so would seem to suggest that the opposition to the changed in 4th edition is very strong amongst the community.
It's mostly the same people over and over and over and over and over and over and over....
Really, a lot of the complaints about what "happened" to the 4E Realms are so much venting; a whole lot of it is just empty, repetitive and even spurious at times, owing more to people's personal feelings (which are legitimate, but subjective and strictly limited to the individual) and closely held personal grudges against WotC, than to any real factual concern about what can or can't be done in the 4E Realms so far as playing D&D is concerned.
While I can agree in spirit to most of what you said, that last bit I would argue... 4e seems much more geared towards the PCs being larger than life heroes with abilities fairly well beyond what your average joe could pull off. The classes themselves are built that way as far as I can tell, and it really cuts off the 'average adventurer' storyline in a lot of respects. Sure you could go the non-heroic route, presuming that its similar to Saga Edition in that respect, but I'm at a loss how one could play a cleric or wizard with a non-heroic base class... mechanically, quite a few interesting story archetypes seem to have been cut off as far as I can tell.
Sure, that probably isn't going to be a big deal to most folks, but as far as I'm concerned, its a major flaw with the edition. Those classes from 3.5 that were supposed to be for NPCs were some of my favorites, and I thought one of the most innovative ideas that came out of the 3e era in a lot of respects. While conceptually I prefer something like White Wolf's storyteller system in terms of character building, at least in a theoretical sense, though not necessarily in practice, the d20 system is considerably more manageable in most other respects.
It's mostly the same people over and over and over and over and over and over and over....
Not so.
Some of us don't like it, but allow others who are more knowledgable about the Realms speak for us.
I lurk mostly, but I thought that needed to be said. I think its a lot more then the handful of people that constantly post that dislike the Realms.
I can't play a Mystra-worshipping Bard in a campaign set around Harper vs Zhentarim intrigue in Cormyr, with side plots of War Wizard intrigue. I can't throw in Sembian Merchants either, or the Obarskyrs (at least, those whose descriptions consist of more then one line).
That sort of campaign screams 'Realms' to me. And I can't do it anymore.
We have a winner! A hundred pages and still going. :D
Congratulaions Suin Bahhar... your 30 mm miniature reproductions of the entire WotC staff are in the mail.
Complete with statcards for use in-game. :P
:coolcthul :D
It's mostly the same people over and over and over and over and over and over and over....
...complaining about Elminster and Mystra and her Chosen.
You want specific complaints? Hows this one.
I can't play a Mystra-worshipping Bard in a campaign set around Harper vs Zhentarim intrigue in Cormyr, with side plots of War Wizard intrigue. I can't throw in Sembian Merchants either, or the Obarskyrs (at least, those whose descriptions consist of more then one line).
That sort of campaign screams 'Realms' to me. And I can't do it anymore.
Of course you can, just use your own Realms rather than the official setting.
If I were to use the current 'Realms' stuff, I couldn't run a campaign like that. The Harpers/Zhents/Sembians/War Wizards/Cormyr have fundamentally changed, and they aren't all that's changed in the Realms.
4e seems much more geared towards the PCs being larger than life heroes with abilities fairly well beyond what your average joe could pull off. The classes themselves are built that way as far as I can tell...
Yeah, they've pretty much stated this was a goal of 4E, to make the PCs exceptional from 1st level. I mostly love it, though I can absolutely understand your feelings.
...and it really cuts off the 'average adventurer' storyline in a lot of respects.
Perhaps. I guess it is a little harder to downplay a 1st level 4E character, as opposed to the same in 3E. In 3E, at times it felt like the PCs really were only slightly more powerful than a farmer.
I don't mind this change, as I feel like I can still believably play a Rand Al'Thor-type character that goes from farmboy to king/champion/whatnot. As I said, though, I can understand your feelings.
Sure you could go the non-heroic route, presuming that its similar to Saga Edition in that respect, but I'm at a loss how one could play a cleric or wizard with a non-heroic base class... mechanically, quite a few interesting story archetypes seem to have been cut off as far as I can tell.
Actually, since the design philosophy for NPCs/Monsters has been completely changed (for the better, in my opinion), Non-Heroic Classes don't exist in 4E; much to your chagrin, no doubt.
Sure, that probably isn't going to be a big deal to most folks, but as far as I'm concerned, its a major flaw with the edition. Those classes from 3.5 that were supposed to be for NPCs were some of my favorites, and I thought one of the most innovative ideas that came out of the 3e era in a lot of respects.
You're right that most people probably won't miss these classes. I don't say that to belittle your opinion, but rather I'm agreeing with your assumption. As you said, they were never intended for PC useage, and you were playing somewhat outside the box. It's a cool place to play, but not one to which the designers can be beholden when creating a new edition.
I really like the new way NPCs are created. They are much more varied and can pack some real surprises, while still being balanced.
For instance, we all pretty much knew what a 6th Level Bugbear Warrior could do based on the equipment he carried and the PC-party's average level. I could likely pick him out on the field of battle. Some might cry "metagame", but I'd counter that assessing one's enemy, based upon past experience, is simply sound tactics. I could probably not do the same thing with the Bugbear Strangler, until he gets his hands/garrote around someone's throat. He's unpredictable, a surprise. I like that. I think he will still be a surprise three years down the road, because I won't be able to look at him and think "it looks like he has levels in the 'Bugbear Strangler' NPC class".
In my opinion, this new creatively open method of building NPCs is a vast improvement over NPC Classes. You miss out on the NPC classes, but you gain better opponents. This aspect of 4E is one of the few for which I've seen almost universal praise. That doesn't mean you have to agree, of course. I just felt like dropping in my two cents and maybe offering a brightside to a change that dissappoints you. That's why we're here, afterall.
As to 4e having some good ideas, to be perfectly honest, I find myself agreeing with a lot of the concepts behind 4e more often than not. Its generally the execution I take exception with, in terms of fluff mostly... except magic, that one really bugs me no end. While I agree it makes sense with 4e's design philosophy, it still bothers me from a philosophical point of view. But I digress...
And I wouldn't call that metagaming if you'd run into them before... if your character didn't have at least a decent learning curve, I suspect his head would soon be longing for his neck. Though I'm not sure how the surprise element couldn't be incorporated into 3.x encounters... it'd take more work, that's for sure, but its entirely doable. Could be I'm missing something there though, as I tend to run combat-light campaigns, so it doesn't come up that often, and I tend to spend days cooking up encounters anyway. Though I'll admit, I've yet to see a better system than Storyteller when it came to coming up with quick NPCs that could be surprisingly varied.
Its not really the peasant to king storylines that I'm as interested in, I could quite see how those could be played out in 4e, its more like the average adventurer in a band, who never really achieves noteriety or fame, probably dies early and young, but who makes an impact somewhere in someone's life... maybe the village they saved or something. Or the adventurers who spend more time in court than they do adventuring, who just aren't going to learn neat tricks of anything other than their wits and tongues.
I see. I guess some of 4E's powers would be pretty spectacular for characters of this sort.
But, on the bright side, I still have 3.x and Saga to use, so its not really that big of an issue to me. Disappointing, but not debilitating in a gaming sense.
QFT. I've loved 3.x for years, and haven't thrown out my books even after adopting 4E. One doesn't preclude the other, afterall.
SWSE is probably my favorite RPG. DnD is my first love, but no iteration of has been better executed than SWSE. I loved it so much that I simply couldn't go back to our 3.5 Eberron campaign after playing in our first SWSE campaign. I actually waited for 4E before returning to DnD. I was a little bummed that 4E wasn't more like SWSE, but I've long since gotten over that. They both admirably accomplish their goal.
And I wouldn't call that metagaming if you'd run into them before... if your character didn't have at least a decent learning curve, I suspect his head would soon be longing for his neck.
My thoughts, exactly.
Though I'm not sure how the surprise element couldn't be incorporated into 3.x encounters... it'd take more work, that's for sure, but its entirely doable.
That's true. I might have overstated things in an effort to emphasize my enjoyment of the new approach.
Could be I'm missing something there though, as I tend to run combat-light campaigns, so it doesn't come up that often, and I tend to spend days cooking up encounters anyway.
These are also my favorite type of games/campaigns. I'm in it for the story. Sometimes the story needs combat to move forward. Often, it doesn't.
Though I'll admit, I've yet to see a better system than Storyteller when it came to coming up with quick NPCs that could be surprisingly varied.
This is White Wolf's system, right? We really should give Storyteller a try. I've never actually played in a storyteller game, because the few gamers with whom I've had a chance to get into such a game have quite simply been a little too odd for me. I wish it hadn't been the case, because I enjoyed reading the fluff they loaned me. Maybe I'll get some of my current fellows to give it a try sometime. I should have a few extra dollars, someday, since we can supposedly expect fewer "must have" releases for 4E. Less quantity, greater quality they say.
Fluff wise... depends on if you run the older version or the newer one. I preferred the older one to be honest, and am fairly unimpressed with the newer one's fluff, despite its crunch seeming to be a bit better. Its a bit pale and tragic for me these days though, and the tendency towards gother-than-thou that seemed to pop up in the last breaths of oWoD got old fast. The earlier stuff was pretty good though, until the metaplot started coming on in earnest.
The last time we spoke, he also mentioned that the new WoD material wasn't as much to his liking as the old. It's a shame that stonger mechanics couldn't combine with equal or bettter fluff. Oh, well.
I might see what type of info I can dig up and see if WoD is something I feel worthy of a deeper look.
I would feel bad about getting off topic, but I don't think normal rules apply with a thread this long an convoluted.
It's mostly the same people over and over and over and over and over and over and over....
...and over...
You want specific complaints? Hows this one.
I can't play a Mystra-worshipping Bard in a campaign set around Harper vs Zhentarim intrigue in Cormyr, with side plots of War Wizard intrigue. I can't throw in Sembian Merchants either, or the Obarskyrs (at least, those whose descriptions consist of more then one line).
That sort of campaign screams 'Realms' to me. And I can't do it anymore.
Sure you can, if your DM is on the same page as you are. Hell a nice DM may work it into his/her campaign. RPGs are not like comics. When a comic writer "tampers" with something you like, you are stuck with it until another writer comes and "fixes" it. Basically you are totally helpless. With RPGs we are lucky in that we are in comntrol of everything that happens in the game. You may not be able to use everythign from the books but you can always use something usually. The campaign and splat books are just Primers for our imaginations. It is a great thing to be in control.;)
Not so.
Some of us don't like it, but allow others who are more knowledgable about the Realms speak for us.
And some of us do like it and I know there are people who can't be bothered responding to the "over and over" more or less with the similar "over and over" that is required and don't post here as a result (in fact, several of them wonder why I do bother and frankly, I can't figure that out either).
I think its a lot more then the handful of people that constantly post that dislike the Realms.
I don't really know actually, I just get sick of the endless argument ad populum. Considering all three games I run have players who are enjoying the realms and the game, which is much more than the handful of individuals on this forum alone, I have good reason to suspect otherwise.
They didn't blow up as many deities as people thought. They still got Sharess, The Red Knight, etc. What makes me angry is that they destroyed Lantan. It got ate by a Tsunami! I was in a campaign where we took out a whole freaking undead navy to save the place and it gets one shotted by a Tsunami?! And there were no survivors thus nothing from the place could even be salvaged. Great way to destroy my favorite tech nation in the realms. I loved my black powder rifles and muskets.
My current PC is a gnome artificer whose parents survived Lantan's desctruction. How can that be? Because I told the DM that is what happened. It is amazing how much power we gamers actually can have over this world. Canon can be a crutch. Have fun and make the campaign world the way you want it to be run.
...complaining about Elminster and Mystra and her Chosen.
Actually, I very rarely ever did so in the entire run of the 3rd edition realms (despite being here 8 years). Our post-counts and the number of posts made prove who is going "over and over" quite easily, unfortunately for you
...and over...
Five posts after that one... and two of them are yours.
Case proven. ;)
:P
Then the moon.
I can't play a Mystra-worshipping Bard in a campaign set around Harper vs. Zhentarim intrigue in Cormyr, with side plots of War Wizard intrigue. I can't throw in Sembian Merchants either, or the Obarskyrs (at least, those whose descriptions consist of more than one line).
Let's see....
1) Bard class due out in the PHBII. See Dragon #369 (November 2008) for the latest info. If we're lucky, we might see playable preview rules for the Bard like we did for the Barbarian class a few months ago (that class plus the Druid are also due out in the PHBII).
2) Mystra-worshipping: No problem. The goddess doesn't have to exist to be worshipped. Long tradition of the worship of dead gods in the Realms after all. What's more, as Mystra was one of the deities who blessed the founding of the Harpers, it's more likely a character with links to the Harpers will know about Mystra, her teachings and how past followers guided and aided the Harpers than any other non-mage/non-lore person would. Good lead in, in fact.
3) “But the Harpers don’t exist!” you say. Well, of course they do. They’re broken up and fragmented, on the downside of the cycle, so to speak, but they still exist. That’s because this is nothing new to the Harpers, whose organization goes through such up and down cycles.
Being something of a regular at Candlekeep.com, you (Uzzy) have probably already read as much on the “Ask Ed Greenwood” thread, though if you haven’t it’s not that hard to figure this out from reading the entry on the Harpers in the FRCG.
Given the proposed adventure location of Cormyr, it follows that individuals with links to the Harpers exist who are keeping the lore of the organization secure, especially since the group was founded extremely close to Cormyr.
4) Zhentarim, War Wizards, Sembian Merchants and the Obarskyrs: Check x 4. None of them are gone, all of them are still meddling and the war between Cormyr, Sembia and Netheril ended 37 years ago (1441 DR, Year of Resurrections Rampant) from the present date of 4th Edition (1479 DR, Year of the Ageless One), so the border between the Cormyr and Sembia is -even if tenuously- open and active.
“The War Wizards still try to spy on everyone (even themselves).” --from the Dragon Magazine article, Backdrop: Cormyr article, page 47, issue #364, June 2008.
I think, Uzzy, you inadvertently hit on a great reason to play a bard in Cormyr and be part of a resurgent Harper organization set in Cormyr. With the truce between Cormyr and Sembia an uneasy one, it makes sense for Cormyreans from the eastern part of the realm who are of goodly heart and strong character to want to watch over and protect their lands.
If such individuals were also raised on stories of the past exploits of the Harpers (maybe the character’s ancestors had been involved with them or the Heralds) and have a strong dislike for overarching authority (read: meddling War Wizards or the agents of the “black-hearted schemer” Erzoured Obarskyr [Dragon #364]) all the better.
How does the old Harper credo go? The rule of law aids peace and fosters freedom, so long as the laws are just and those who enforce them lenient and understanding.
That sort of campaign screams 'Realms' to me.
Agreed.
And I can't do it anymore.
This is the kind of hyperbole I'm talking about. Of course you can do all of the above.
It takes no more effort to do what I just did than is normally required of a player and his/her DM for regular character creation in the Realms. For players already knowledgeable about the Realms, it’s even easier to do this.
All one needs is a little patience until the Bard Class is released, then they’re all set.
(in fact, several of them wonder why I do bother and frankly, I can't figure that out either).
You're a glutton for punishment with an argumentative streak a mile wide? :D
Five posts after this one... and two of them are yours.
Case proven. ;)
:P
Heh, Happy New Year.
Most of the current posts on this thread do not have quite the same snark/venom as the earlier stuff. Hopefully people learned that we can all agree to disagree for the most part. Even Rino and I tell Uzzy the same thing about FR, you can do whatever you like, and we do not have the same feelings about the current Realms.
Peopl have different ideas on what is funor what really matters. I have seen people around here complaining about some 4E maps. While this does not matter to me at all it seems to really irk some folks. It is just different strokes.;)
Let's see....
1) Bard class due out in the PHBII. See Dragon #369 (November 2008) for the latest info. If we're lucky, we might see playable preview rules for the Bard like we did for the Barbarian class a few months ago (that class plus the Druid are also due out in the PHBII).
I appreciate that you're trying to take a positive approach here, but I think you're missing Uzzy's point.
In any case, the whole "if we're lucky we will get previews" for a product we'd have to buy in order to play a single character type... that just doesn't hold water. By the same argument, if I'm "lucky" the designers will decide to undo everything horrible (IMO) they've done to make 4E and erase all of it with a novel that involves time travel. In that sense, I'd just have to wait for 5E or 6E, and hope for an online preview. And the likelihood of that is near zero.
Bottom line: Uzzy is correct when saying the world is hugely different and that one can't play the scenario described. Not with the same feel, tone and ingredients.
2) Mystra-worshipping: No problem. The goddess doesn't have to exist to be worshipped. Long tradition of the worship of dead gods in the Realms after all. What's more, as Mystra was one of the deities who blessed the founding of the Harpers, it's more likely a character with links to the Harpers will know about Mystra, her teachings and how past followers guided and aided the Harpers than any other non-mage/non-lore person would. Good lead in, in fact.
Sure, it's a good lead-in if you want to play a character who is worshipping a dead goddess, which has huge game ramifications.
3) “But the Harpers don’t exist!” you say. Well, of course they do. They’re broken up and fragmented, on the downside of the cycle, so to speak, but they still exist. That’s because this is nothing new to the Harpers, whose organization goes through such up and down cycles.
(...)I think, Uzzy, you inadvertently hit on a great reason to play a bard in Cormyr and be part of a resurgent Harper organization set in Cormyr. With the truce between Cormyr and Sembia an uneasy one, it makes sense for Cormyreans from the eastern part of the realm who are of goodly heart and strong character to want to watch over and protect their lands.
If such individuals were also raised on stories of the past exploits of the Harpers (maybe the character’s ancestors had been involved with them or the Heralds) and have a strong dislike for overarching authority (read: meddling War Wizards or the agents of the “black-hearted schemer” Erzoured Obarskyr [Dragon #364]) all the better.
But it's really not the same, is it? We are missing the Obarkyrs that we knew and understood. Loyalty to this new king is bland, because we know nothing of his exploits other than a few sentences. When role-playing before, one could play off the well-known traits of the Purple Dragon or his daughters (or his court); we also have a fractured, damaged version of the Harpers, whose code is entirely uncertain and purposes as written are different in tone. In 4E, it's like being served pie from a chain store that is really bland and average - after having been served your favorite pie at a favorite family bakery where everyone knows your name (vis. shared world that was loved). Tone, environment, and ingredients, that's everything when it comes to pie, and it's everything in a roleplaying game, particularly for a shared game world.
This is the kind of hyperbole I'm talking about. Of course you can do all of the above.
It takes no more effort to do what I just did than is normally required of a player and his/her DM for regular character creation in the Realms. For players already knowledgeable about the Realms, it’s even easier to do this.
All one needs is a little patience until the Bard Class is released, then they’re all set.
This assumes that Uzzy is interested in playing the character you described, which requires fundamental shifts in lore, underlying character concept, and the desire to play a character who is worshipping a dead goddess, working for a broken organization, fighting for unclear reasons, in a Realms that has dramatically changed in flavor and tone (think "spirit of adventure" vs. "post-apocalypse") such that it affects the entire campaign -and- the community at large.
In trying to be helpful on a mechanical level, you're missing Uzzy's point. It really is not the same Realms, by any stretch of the imagination. You're suggesting that people are engaging in hyperbole... well, saying everything "is just about the same and just requires some patience" is merely hand-waving genuine problems away and it isn't exaggeration on Uzzy's part. This new Realms has many problems for many people, not the least of which was the destruction of a good, shared game world. We now have a fractured, bombed-out version of the Realms and a fractured community.
In trying to be helpful on a mechanical level, you're missing Uzzy's point. It really is not the same Realms, by any stretch of the imagination. You're suggesting that people are engaging in hyperbole... well, saying everything "is just about the same and just requires some patience" is merely hand-waving genuine problems away and it isn't exaggeration on Uzzy's part. This new Realms has many problems for many people, not the least of which was the destruction of a good, shared game world. We now have a fractured, bombed-out version of the Realms and a fractured community.
Therise wins the thread.
Loyalty to this new king is bland, because we know nothing of his exploits other than a few sentences.
I am running a game in Cormyr right now and I just checked my notes on King Foril, his court and the various problems faced by Cormyr. Eight pages of details, backgrounds and associated possible ways I can incorporate him into the campaign. All written with the skeleton given by the book that grounded the base concept for me.
So yeah, in my game he's now a fairly complex and very pressured man with a lot to think about. I added the background and detail where I wanted it. In your world, you can do what you want (including changing his theme to anything you want it to be) and so can I.
I do agree in principle however with many of the points you make.
It really is not the same Realms, by any stretch of the imagination. You're suggesting that people are engaging in hyperbole... well, saying everything "is just about the same and just requires some patience" is merely hand-waving genuine problems away and it isn't exaggeration on Uzzy's part. This new Realms has many problems for many people, not the least of which was the destruction of a good, shared game world.
The first half of this I entirely agree with. The post-apocalyptic interpretation of the Realms in many ways is definitely very hard to work around with certain campaigns and ideas from the previous editions that people may have had. For me, it opens up many more opportunities than it shuts down, primarily because the spellpague and 4E in general change a lot of things that suit what I need precisely. But I can in fact see the problems things like killing a swathe of Gods and NPCs (even if I disliked them) would have on other peoples games.
But I find it odd you claim this is a "Shared" gameworld when what you really should be saying is that it's not the gameworld that suits your preferences anymore. The example of King Foril illustrates the point for me. You want it so that he's set in stone in a way you like or want. I want it the opposite so I can make him whatever I want. 4E suits me far better in that regard, because I can make him whatever I want or need to suit the game I am running. You could do the same thing if you wanted.
That makes it far more of a "shared" world in my opinion, as opposed to "this is written exactly like this" world. Possibly there is something I plain don't get about what you are trying to claim here, unless you are meaning consistency between everyones realms must be the same (EG written in canon) in terms of "shared". Though that doesn't seemed shared at all, it just says "this is consistent and sucks to be you if you don't like OUR consistency".
I know what I prefer.
But I find it odd you claim this is a "Shared" gameworld when what you really should be saying is that it's not the gameworld that suits your preferences anymore. The example of King Foril illustrates the point for me. You want it so that he's set in stone in a way you like or want. I want it the opposite so I can make him whatever I want. 4E suits me far better in that regard, because I can make him whatever I want or need to suit the game I am running. You could do the same thing if you wanted.
That makes it far more of a "shared" world in my opinion, as opposed to "this is written exactly like this" world.
What Therise meant, as far as I can tell, is a shared game environment in which everyone works with the same material. A few lines about an NPC, an organization, a country or whatever opposed to whole supplements dedicated to them. A lot of the 4e FR seems to be deliberately vague so you can "make it your own", so to speak, and that's fine if that's your cup of tea. However, your Realms will differ much more from the Realms of other 4e gamers than it was the case with earlier editions, simply because you have to make up much of the material yourself. A setting that makes vagueness (as in "Here's the setup, but the details are up to you") a focal point is by its very nature less of a shared gaming environment (in the sense I believe Therise was talking about) than one that is as detailed as the Realms of old used to be.
As far as preference is concerned, I've changed much of the Realms beyond recognition, so the 4e Realms should be right up my alley, right? But that's not the case. I don't need a campaign guide expressly allowing me to do whatever I want with it in order to do whatever I want with it. I've been doing that anyway for almost twenty years. I've always been at an advantage here, because while changing what I didn't like wasn't a problem, I still knew what people were talking about when lots and lots of Manshoon clones came up for discussion, even though they didn't exist in my version of the setting. It was my choice whether to adhere to the setting as is, or to turn it upside down. It was my choice to use NPC X because I thought it was a truly interesting character with lots of options and plot hooks, or NPC Y whom I thought to be a ridiculously overpowered author's darling. I could pick what I liked, disregard the rest and still work with what I'd call common ground. This common ground just isn't there anymore, or more precisely: there's not much left of it.
I guess that's what Therise was driving at, among other things.
DB
...I added the background and detail where I wanted it. In your world, you can do what you want (including changing his theme to anything you want it to be) and so can I.
Well, I think that's great - I really do think it's great generally for DMs who want or like the ability to flesh out NPCs in this manner. The 4E philosophy pretty much makes this true for regions as well.
But honestly, and this is just my own personal take: I hate it, and I hate what they've done. It reminds me a little of Greyhawk (which I love for other reasons, but not this one), where NPCs were bare bones and regions were relatively bare bones. And it reminds me a little of Call of Chtulhu. I don't like it precisely because it erases much of the flavor and themes that I could easily draft an adventure from. I liked the Realms because of its warts, the fact that it had really deeply fleshed out NPCs in many areas and I could talk about others with those in the real sense of a shared world.
The first half of this I entirely agree with. The post-apocalyptic interpretation of the Realms in many ways is definitely very hard to work around with certain campaigns and ideas from the previous editions that people may have had. For me, it opens up many more opportunities than it shuts down, primarily because the spellpague and 4E in general change a lot of things that suit what I need precisely. But I can in fact see the problems things like killing a swathe of Gods and NPCs (even if I disliked them) would have on other peoples games.
I think in many ways it really comes down to a fractured fanbase. There are those that will love the new Realms for what it is, and there are those who loathe it for what it is now and liked most of the older tone and flavor. Both positions have their merits, but they won't appeal universally.
But I find it odd you claim this is a "Shared" gameworld when what you really should be saying is that it's not the gameworld that suits your preferences anymore. The example of King Foril illustrates the point for me. You want it so that he's set in stone in a way you like or want. I want it the opposite so I can make him whatever I want. 4E suits me far better in that regard, because I can make him whatever I want or need to suit the game I am running. You could do the same thing if you wanted.
To me, "shared" means that when I speak of many NPCs with others (or regions, or whatever design element), I'm going into the conversation knowing mostly that my read of those NPCs will match the deep-level history that others also know. Shared doesn't mean an NPC name with a fairly blank slate that other people adapt (such that many DMs could have a radically different presentation of the same NPC).
Granted, I don't know anyone who has ever followed canon completely for their own games. I certainly don't, as my own world diverges greatly from canon Realms (for me, no ToT and many other canon RSEs). But having said that, the deep history and flavor of the Realms, including the rich backgrounds of most NPCs that I use, are highly in accord with those aspects of canon. In that regard, I'm sharing the same themes and NPCs even pretty much down to the level of NPC motivations and setting tone.
I think it really boils down to "how blank of a slate does one want?" and whether or not you're okay with dramatic changes to the lore which have changed the overall feel and tone of the setting as a whole. Going into someone else's 4E Realms game, I would not feel that same sense of a shared world as noted above. For some, this is a good thing (as it would tend to cut down on haughty players who think they know what should happen in a game), but for others they'll just end up missing a core feature that make the Realms worthwhile to them.
That makes it far more of a "shared" world in my opinion, as opposed to "this is written exactly like this" world. Possibly there is something I plain don't get about what you are trying to claim here, unless you are meaning consistency between everyones realms must be the same (EG written in canon) in terms of "shared". Though that doesn't seemed shared at all, it just says "this is consistent and sucks to be you if you don't like OUR consistency".
I know what I prefer.
Not sure if I've explained my own reasoning well enough above, but hopefully I have. I also know what I prefer, and it's just not what's present now - in a ton of ways. I'm not really arguing for complete consistency in the sense of holding true to canon religiously, as I've never done that myself. But in knowing canon fairly well, I could previously share that sense of appreciation with people who loved most of the novels and I could go into most games knowing what NPCs and regions were generally like. The new Realms incorporates a ton of things that I automatically reject from my own personal Realms campaign world, so I'm truly on the other side of the coin in this regard.
But things come and go. Probably just means I have to wait for the next edition. ;)
A few lines about an NPC, an organization, a country or whatever opposed to whole supplements dedicated to them
To my view, that's already what we have.
However, your Realms will differ much more from the Realms of other 4e gamers than it was the case with earlier editions, simply because you have to make up much of the material yourself.
I don't mind that concept at all really, but I could see where it could make some problems. Then again, this is why I rather like the FRCG. It tells me some names, a few details of these people and then lets me decide their position within the overall story I want to tell.
My game has my consistency to it, just like yours does I'm sure. I don't particularly care if someone is upset that I don't do something they think is canon anymore.
What Therise meant, as far as I can tell, (...) I guess that's what Therise was driving at, among other things.
DB
Yep, you got my intent.
Let's see....
Sure, lets!
1) Bard class due out in the PHBII. See Dragon #369 (November 2008) for the latest info. If we're lucky, we might see playable preview rules for the Bard like we did for the Barbarian class a few months ago (that class plus the Druid are also due out in the PHBII).
So I'd have to buy another book to get to play a Bard. Nice. Anyway, that's a specific 4th Edition complaint, rather then a 4th Edition Realms complaint.
2) Mystra-worshipping: No problem. The goddess doesn't have to exist to be worshipped. Long tradition of the worship of dead gods in the Realms after all. What's more, as Mystra was one of the deities who blessed the founding of the Harpers, it's more likely a character with links to the Harpers will know about Mystra, her teachings and how past followers guided and aided the Harpers than any other non-mage/non-lore person would. Good lead in, in fact.
I don't see anything on Mystra in the 4th Edition Realms Campaign Guide. So I'd have no idea how my character would worship Mystra. Maybe that'd be a good thing for a 4th Edition game.
3) “But the Harpers don’t exist!” you say. Well, of course they do. They’re broken up and fragmented, on the downside of the cycle, so to speak, but they still exist. That’s because this is nothing new to the Harpers, whose organization goes through such up and down cycles.
Being something of a regular at Candlekeep.com, you (Uzzy) have probably already read as much on the “Ask Ed Greenwood” thread, though if you haven’t it’s not that hard to figure this out from reading the entry on the Harpers in the FRCG.
Going by the entry of the Harpers in the FRCG, I'd say that the Harpers are nothing more then a very secret anti Shade group that only operates in Luruar. I mean 'A Small organisation dedicated to one purpose: opposing the growing power of the Shadovar' is pretty clear. Hard to argue they are the same, or that they could be active in Cormyr, dealing with the Zhents (who are their traditional enemy)
4) Zhentarim, War Wizards, Sembian Merchants and the Obarskyrs: Check x 4. None of them are gone, all of them are still meddling and the war between Cormyr, Sembia and Netheril ended 37 years ago (1441 DR, Year of Resurrections Rampant) from the present date of 4th Edition (1479 DR, Year of the Ageless One), so the border between the Cormyr and Sembia is -even if tenuously- open and active.
Not gone, but fundamentally changed. The Zhentarim are no longer a merchantile group backed by a powerful religious army, but a band of roaming mercenaries based in Darkhold. The War Wizards seem to have taken on a more militaristic stance too, going by the FRCG, and I believe I read somewhere that they don't go scrying on people anymore (quite possibly because scry doesn't quite work the same in 4th Edition). Sembian Merchants seem unlikely to be operating in Cormyr, at least openly, and colour me uninspired with the few lines of description about the current Obarskyrs. All change there.
I think, Uzzy, you inadvertently hit on a great reason to play a bard in Cormyr and be part of a resurgent Harper organization set in Cormyr. With the truce between Cormyr and Sembia an uneasy one, it makes sense for Cormyreans from the eastern part of the realm who are of goodly heart and strong character to want to watch over and protect their lands.
If such individuals were also raised on stories of the past exploits of the Harpers (maybe the character’s ancestors had been involved with them or the Heralds) and have a strong dislike for overarching authority (read: meddling War Wizards or the agents of the “black-hearted schemer” Erzoured Obarskyr [Dragon #364]) all the better.
One could, yes, barely. Or I could run the campaign I want. Which I can't do with the 4th Edition Realms as it currently is. Why? Because it's fundamentally changed from the Realms I know.
Well, I think that's great - I really do think it's great generally for DMs who want or like the ability to flesh out NPCs in this manner. The 4E philosophy pretty much makes this true for regions as well.
But honestly, and this is just my own personal take: I hate it, and I hate what they've done.
Which is absolutely, completely and utterly 100% fair and correct. For me this is a significant advantage because I pour hours of extra work into things. You could have a fully detailed settlement in a book for example and I still ignore it and make my own fishing village 20 miles away. Why? Because it's mine and when I ravage it with demons, it gives me that other option as a fallback in case the PCs fail and I need to rapidly change track in the story.
I liked the Realms because of its warts, the fact that it had really deeply fleshed out NPCs in many areas and I could talk about others with those in the real sense of a shared world.
I cannot possibly understand the word "shared" with NPCs who are set in rigid stone being valid.
To me, "shared" means that when I speak of many NPCs with others (or regions, or whatever design element), I'm going into the conversation knowing mostly that my read of those NPCs will match the deep-level history that others also know. Shared doesn't mean an NPC name with a fairly blank slate that other people adapt (such that many DMs could have a radically different presentation of the same NPC).
Sounds more like dictating precise terms than "shared" to me. I would have used the word "consistent" rather than shared, because shared does not to me imply what you are meaning. Being "consistent" does, but that implies things are "canon" and that doesn't indicate a "shared" world at all to me. It's one persons world that someone wrote that everyone talks about. That's the complete opposite of "shared" to me in every single way.
I think it really boils down to "how blank of a slate does one want?" and whether or not you're okay with dramatic changes to the lore which have changed the overall feel and tone of the setting as a whole. Going into someone else's 4E Realms game, I would not feel that same sense of a shared world as noted above. For some, this is a good thing (as it would tend to cut down on haughty players who think they know what should happen in a game), but for others they'll just end up missing a core feature that make the Realms worthwhile to them.
This is a very valid point. My experience with NPCs in the realms (which was extremely negative as everyone here knows by now) basically means the 4E approach is significantly better for me. However, it's exactly true for people who don't have the time or incentive or just desire to make their own NPCs in this manner, it creates a really big issue (gap wise).
But things come and go. Probably just means I have to wait for the next edition. ;)
The aboleths will have taken over and Cthulhu will be revealed to be in the Sea of Fallen stars about to eat everyone.
I called it first.
Sure, lets!
So I'd have to buy another book to get to play a Bard. Nice. Anyway, that's a specific 4th Edition complaint, rather then a 4th Edition Realms complaint.
Play A warlord, or a rouge mutli class warlord. A cleric with a little reflavouring and rouge multi class would also work well. Both would get you the skill set you are looking for, and as an added bounus your charecter would not be sadled with the underpowered pile of suck that was the 3E bard.
Also have you seen the 4E bard preview its quite impresive?
The PHB2 has 8 new classes, several new races, plus lots of stuff for every other class. Your unhappy about this why?
I cannot possibly understand the word "shared" with NPCs who are set in rigid stone being valid.
But Therise explained it as clearly as possible... I mean, not to be snarky here, but what's there to not understand?
Sounds more like dictating precise terms than "shared" to me.
These "dictated precise terms" you share with all other FR players who decide to adopt them. If they don't - and of course it's completely up to them if they do or not - and change an NPC for example, you don't "share" this NPC with them anymore. Right now, the FRCG dictates that there's a kingdom called Cormyr, it dictates where it is, what its borders are, and what a few of its VIPs are called. If you chose to disregard Cormyr altogether, you could do so, but you wouldn't "share" it with other players gaming in that region.
You see, for us all comes a point where we've changed so much, the setting isn't easily recognizable anymore. Some people detest the slightest of changes, some love turning it all upside down. But the more you change in your Realms, the less it has in common with the Realms of other players, thereby becoming less of a shared gaming environment. With a setting that's rather bare-bones to begin with, you have to make up much of it yourself - which is a good thing for many gamers. Nonetheless it will have considerably less in common with other GMs' 4e Realms (because you all had to flesh it out) than the Realms of two 1e / 2e / 3e gaming groups who more or less adhered to canon.
The advantage of the Realms of old is the common ground I talked about. Whatever you choose to change, you have the common ground of the canonical Realms and therefore a basis for discussion with other gamers. Since the 4e default is considerably less detailed, there's less common ground. The difference is the amount of detail.
DB
Play A warlord, or a rouge mutli class warlord. A cleric with a little reflavouring and rouge multi class would also work well.
All the rouges in the world must be blushing when they read this ;)
DB
One could, yes, barely. Or I could run the campaign I want. Which I can't do with the 4th Edition Realms as it currently is. Why? Because it's fundamentally changed from the Realms I know.
You are the DM, all fluff is as you say. If you like any aspect of 4E realms then take those and modify the rest. If you like 4E but hate the 4E realms fluff then use 4E rules in the 3.5 time period. If you hate 4E and the 4E relams, then run the game useing the edtion and time period you like.
But I wonder if FR was just fine the way it was and you want nothing changed, then what could you possible need any more source books for? You are set and WOTC can't get any money out of you so what do you care what they do?
All the rouges in the world must be blushing when they read this ;)
DB
I have defeated imaginary demons, slayed fictional dragons, and conquered hypothetical nations. But lo have I been utterly crushed by grammar and spelling.
...I cannot possibly understand the word "shared" with NPCs who are set in rigid stone being valid.
Well, richly developed NPCs were a major feature of the pre-4E Realms. I'm not seeing the "rigidly set in stone" as being applicable here, necessarily. If I were to play a superhero game and have players meet Spiderman or the Green Arrow (or any other well-developed character), I'd be sharing those NPCs with others who also might use them in their superhero games. That's expected when using shared-world NPCs: I expect that Spiderman will essentially be Spiderman from DM to DM, and not a dramatically different individual wearing a similar costume. In my game, his exact history may not be the same, but the overall character elements and feel will be the same, and that's what would make him "shared".
Sounds more like dictating precise terms than "shared" to me. I would have used the word "consistent" rather than shared, because shared does not to me imply what you are meaning. Being "consistent" does, but that implies things are "canon" and that doesn't indicate a "shared" world at all to me. It's one persons world that someone wrote that everyone talks about. That's the complete opposite of "shared" to me in every single way.
Not really, no... "shared" implies similar characterization, tone and feel.
In contrast, "consistent" means exactly importing all of an NPC's (or region's) canon history.
I think what you're describing is "open" or "open source", where only very basic features of a given NPC or region are available for use and usually are very different from one DM's game to the next.
What the Realms had pre-4E was a canon world, which could be followed in complete objectivity (unlikely for most), or you could toss things out as desired (very likely for most). Whether or not you chose to adopt various elements from canon lore was an individual decision, making for a shared world. That said, from 1E to 3.5E, there were DMs who fell into the "shared" category and there were DMs who fell into the "open source" category (in terms of lore use). Neither approach was wrong, but you could depend on canon as being both rich and objective, if you wanted to use it. But you wouldn't have to, if you didn't like said canon.
This is a very valid point. My experience with NPCs in the realms (which was extremely negative as everyone here knows by now) basically means the 4E approach is significantly better for me. However, it's exactly true for people who don't have the time or incentive or just desire to make their own NPCs in this manner, it creates a really big issue (gap wise).
Sure, that's a personal choice for everyone. It seems to me you prefer open source more than a shared world, though.
The aboleths will have taken over and Cthulhu will be revealed to be in the Sea of Fallen stars about to eat everyone.
I called it first.
Ugh, perish the thought. I think you're actually describing 4E, though, more than what they'll need to do to 5E in order to fix all these problems. ;) :P ;)
I have defeated imaginary demons, slayed fictional dragons, and conquered hypothetical nations. But lo have I been utterly crushed by grammar and spelling.
Don't let that discourage you from posting. If someone gives you grief about that, it reflects more of their personal pet peeves than anything else. ;) I don't think he intended to give you grief on spelling, though; he was just giving you a friendly jab in the ribs and making a little joke about rouge being reddish (i.e. blushing).
That's how I "red" it anyway. ;)
I bought two 3e sourcebooks (for $12 each! I love discount books!), a book on India (I'm also a history buff), and a trade paperback of DC comics Infinity Crisis. I haven't been keeping up with comics at all anymore, and I only caught the last one or two of that series. It seemed awesome, and I wanted to find out the rest of the story.
Yes... there is an on-topic subject coming up...
I went home and devoured it (and it was definately worth the $10 I paid for it), and I was looking back through it yesterday, showing my kids all the coolest scenes... and a thought struck me.
The entire series is really about a group of four individuals that survived the first Crisis series, and wanted to bring back their 'earths' (alternate realities). The key player in the end turns out to be Superboy, who just can't handle living in a world full of 'other heroes' - you start to see my point creeping in...
He decides to destroy the Universe and re-make it with himself as the only hero (like it was on his alternate earth). Durng the series, he sounds more and more like a pertulent little child, which is pointed out to him by the Teen Titans. He then proceeds to murder them all (by ripping their arms and heads off - I kid you not).
Anyhow, looking at this one scene where Superman confronts Superboy made me suddenly realize the connection the storyline had to the changes made in FR.
Superboy had just finished beating to death the Golden Age Superman, whom he was friends with (one of those intial four). I found this so poignant when viewing Superboy as those players who couldn't handle playing in a world full of Harpers and Chosen.
And, of course, Superman (in all his glory) represents the Fanbase who wanted to see FR remain the way it was... imperfect, yet breathtaking in it's grandeur.
Let's see....
1) Bard class due out in the PHBII.
I have to go along with Miscelleny here, and recommend we all give the 4e rules a try... WHEN they are finished.
My modified New Year's resolution is to not be so negative, and try to avoid threads like this one... but I just couldn't help one last 'poke'.
Happy New Year, Mr. Misc. ;)
As to the whole Aegeri-Therise-DB issue... its a semantics argument, since you seem to be in agreement, for the most part, over the core issue. Both types of lore are essentially shared, people pulling their game elements from a common pool of lore and having a common basis for discussion and argument. The only real difference between the two is the level of detail of that lore, and personal preference. They both have their merits and flaws, the depth approach having more plothooks available inherently, a broader base for specific discussion, but a reduced horizon for personalization in a lot of ways, since it is specific. The more thumbnail approach has the benefit of being being anything the DM wants them to be, but has fewer historical plothooks to draw upon and is harder to discuss on boards like these, since so much of the lore depends on personal interpretation with little in the way of common ground beyond the most basic. Which is better is entirely subjective, though they both represent radically different approaches to game design. Personally, I think it was a mistake to switch the Realms over, since it is effectively like a bucket of ice-cold water being tossed on the sleeping fanbase who preferred the depth approach.
One could, yes, barely. Or I could run the campaign I want. Which I can't do with the 4th Edition Realms as it currently is. Why? Because it's fundamentally changed from the Realms I know.
All I have to say is: If you want to make it a problem, be my guest.
It's Dungeon Masters, not Dungeon Lackeys. Make. Create. Change. Use what you know.
I see where you are coming from on the core changes. Zhentil Keep is gone and Darkhold isn't exactly described as its replacement. So new players (apparently these were the people you were talking about when you used "I" in your initial complaint) won’t have the lead ins to the type of campaign you talked about.
However, you (as in Uzzy, not some hypothetical other person) could with ease enhance Darkhold by sheer act of will, making it the centerpiece of renewed Zhentarim activity. Grant Bane’s blessing through his Exarch Fzoul to a Banite NPC priest of your own creation and have at it.
Given the minimal information on Darkhold in the 4E FRCG, this seems an easy expansion.
That’s two good 4E Realms campaign ideas you’ve helped me come up with.
Maybe this thread isn’t so bad after all.
I have defeated imaginary demons, slayed fictional dragons, and conquered hypothetical nations. But lo have I been utterly crushed by grammar and spelling.
Entirely quotable. Pure awesome, too.
While I can agree in spirit to most of what you said, that last bit I would argue... 4e seems much more geared towards the PCs being larger than life heroes with abilities fairly well beyond what your average joe could pull off. The classes themselves are built that way as far as I can tell, and it really cuts off the 'average adventurer' storyline in a lot of respects.
I missed this earlier and I’m sorry I did.
You’ve hit on a flaw in the 4E mechanics and something my own players observed as well. The 4E mechanics don’t support the kind of roleplaying that gamers enjoy by creating and running an inferior character (game stats wise).
Sure you can take sub-par scores, but the “feeling” of being inferior or average wont’ be there, because of how 4E portrays class powers and abilities. Not sure how else to say it. I guess you could say the mechanics are not as organic as the previous edition’s rules.
Don’t kill me for saying this: 4E is like 2E in that you have your stats, your class and boom, ready to play. 4E does still have skills, but the linking between intelligence score and skill points isn’t there like it was in 3E so you don’t have that game mechanics tie in that helped show why a character was average.
But I hated 2e in a conceptual and mechanics sense to be honest... absolutely despised most of them really, to the point where I thought WW's Storyteller system was mana from heaven when it first showed up in the original V:tM... I thought, man, here's a system that finally lets me build my character the way I see him, rather than someone else's version of what I should be. Then 3e came out, and I saw those feat things as the next logical step to Storyteller's merits and flaws system and I was sold on that idea really quick. And then out came Saga edition, and I got incredibly psyched about 4e's mechanics, since this great thing that started with 3e was obviously just getting better and better...
Of course that's when the reality of 4e's ruleset hit me like jumping into a glacial lake... and the only thing I could think was that this wasn't progress in freedom of character building, its a regression back to the ideas and concepts I hated with 2e with better mechanics and less humanocentricity. It was, to say the least, a severe disappointment for me... but oh well, that's life, at least I still have Saga and can adopt a lot of its better ideas into a hybrid with 3.5e.
These "dictated precise terms" you share with all other FR players who decide to adopt them. If they don't - and of course it's completely up to them if they do or not - and change an NPC for example, you don't "share" this NPC with them anymore.
DB the conclusion doesn't follow. I think it underpins a weak argument that one sort of has to “do things the same” in order to be able to discuss the Realms with other gamers.
For me and many others (yes, I can speak authoritatively here) it's always been far more interesting to read how a fellow Realms DM took NPC X, Y or Z in a new direction than to read words from fellow Realms fans about the same old shared canon information for NPC X, Y or Z.
But the more you change in your Realms, the less it has in common with the Realms of other players, thereby becoming less of a shared gaming environment.
One of the greatest things about the old Realms-L mailing list, for example, was people sharing their campaign write-ups, their changes to fit the theme of their games and so on. The creativity on that list was impressive.
Interacting with people in real life has been the same for me. For the last twenty years I’ve played in a mix of published and homebrew Realms adventures. In all cases my various DMs (and I myself, as DM) have changed things and added things, mostly to my delight and enjoyment.
The idea that these efforts somehow disconnect me from fellow gamers is implausible. It almost suggests that if DMs change the Realms for their own game they’re disconnecting from their players. Doesn’t make any sense.
The advantage of the Realms of old is the common ground I talked about. Whatever you choose to change, you have the common ground of the canonical Realms and therefore a basis for discussion with other gamers. Since the 4e default is considerably less detailed, there's less common ground. The difference is the amount of detail.
How is that common ground not there still? Aegiri’s write-up on the current King of Cormyr for his own Realms game is something I haven’t seen, but I’m 100% certain I could take most of those eight pages he wrote and use it in my game.
Since all we have is the information in the FRCG and the Dragon Magazine article on 4E Cormyr, it follows that fan created information is the next best source of shared, useable information. Realms fans sharing gaming ideas with Realms fans is nothing new (though God knows these FR Forums could use a big dose of more of it).
If anything, I think that scarcity of detail pulls us all closer together and will drive those of us who actively DM in the Realms to band together.
We have a huge opportunity to create and share lore with each other for the Realms. If the Realms were a market, then the market could be best described as a “DM’s Market” and no longer a “Lore-Centered” market. I think that's good for the game and good for the setting, because it puts DMs first.
DB the conclusion doesn't follow. I think it underpins a weak argument that one sort of has to “do things the same” in order to be able to discuss the Realms with other gamers.
I don't recall anyone ever saying that people must "do things the same" in order to discuss the Realms. But it has always been true that people discuss canon lore more than individual approaches. Canon is what is shared about the shared world.
For me and many others (yes, I can speak authoritatively here) it's always been far more interesting to read how a fellow Realms DM took NPC X, Y or Z in a new direction than to read words from fellow Realms fans about the same old shared canon information for NPC X, Y or Z.
Posting statistics do not bear this out, at all. It might be more interesting to some, and even more valuable, but statistically it pales in comparison to discussions of canon lore.
One of the greatest things about the old Realms-L mailing list, for example, was people sharing their campaign write-ups, their changes to fit the theme of their games and so on. The creativity on that list was impressive.
Let's not confuse creative "things that fit well [with canon]" with creative homebrew ideas that often radically diverge from canon. Much of the time on Realms-L, those campaign writeups and ideas fit in well with the shared world, with canon lore.
Since all we have is the information in the FRCG and the Dragon Magazine article on 4E Cormyr, it follows that fan created information is the next based source of shared, useable information. Realms fans sharing gaming ideas with Realms fans is nothing new (though God knows these FR Forums could use a big dose of more of it).
What draws most fans to the Realms is the lore and the shared world concept. That's why (canon) lore discussions have prevailed statistically. Don't get me wrong: I'm not arguing against creativity, or that people shouldn't share their non-canon ideas. But the more people divert from common, shared lore, the less useful it will be to everyone who was drawn in by canon lore. And posts bear that out.
If anything, I think that scarcity of detail pulls us all closer together and will drive those of us who actively DM in the Realms to band together.
We have a huge opportunity to create and share lore with each other for the Realms. If the Realms were a market, then the market could be best described as a “DM’s Market” and no longer a “Lore-Centered” market. I think that's good for the game and good for the setting, because it puts DMs first.
Because this worked so well for Greyhawk? Minimum sourcebooks with low detail... it resulted in a very dedicated, tenacious fanbase, but a rather tiny fanbase.
Don't get me wrong, I love Greyhawk... but for very different reasons.
DB the conclusion doesn't follow. I think it underpins a weak argument that one sort of has to “do things the same” in order to be able to discuss the Realms with other gamers.
Not at all, as I've said before - explicitly even. If this was what I meant, I wouldn't have been able to change most of the setting, would I?
One of the greatest things about the old Realms-L mailing list, for example, was people sharing their campaign write-ups, their changes to fit the theme of their games and so on. The creativity on that list was impressive.
There are some nice ideas here and on CK, too. (Buried deep within megabytes and megabytes of discussion, but still.)
The idea that these efforts somehow disconnect me from fellow gamers is implausible.
Disconnect? I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here.
It almost suggests that if DMs change the Realms for their own game they’re disconnecting from their players. Doesn’t make any sense.
Now I know we're not talking about the same thing here.
How is that common ground not there still? Aegiri’s write-up on the current King of Cormyr for his own Realms game is something I haven’t seen, but I’m 100% certain I could take most of those eight pages he wrote and use it in my game.
And how is that common ground, as in "shared gaming environment" in the sense it was used? Maybe you could use Aegeri's stuff. Maybe you'd think it sucks. Maybe something inbetween. Still, it's not exactly common ground, it's something Aegeri came up with and lets you use. Following your logic, my homebrew is as much a shared gaming environment / common ground as the Realms of old as soon as I let someone else use it - and that's absolutely not what we've been talking about here.
We have a huge opportunity to create and share lore with each other for the Realms. If the Realms were a market, then the market could be best described as a “DM’s Market” and no longer a “Lore-Centered” market. I think that's good for the game and good for the setting, because it puts DMs first.
No, it puts those who love to come up with their own stuff instead of using someone else's stuff— wait, that's not right. You're all for using someone else's stuff, it just mustn't be stuff designers came up with.
Anyway, the 1e / 2e / 3e approach isn't better than the 4e approach - it's just better for those who prefer it. Please stop trying to convince us that the 4e approach is better for us all, because - excuse me - that's just nonsense.
DB
But I hated 2e in a conceptual and mechanics sense to be honest... absolutely despised most of them really, to the point where I thought WW's Storyteller system was mana from heaven when it first showed up in the original V:tM... I thought, man, here's a system that finally lets me build my character the way I see him, rather than someone else's version of what I should be. Then 3e came out, and I saw those feat things as the next logical step to Storyteller's merits and flaws system and I was sold on that idea really quick. And then out came Saga edition, and I got incredibly psyched about 4e's mechanics, since this great thing that started with 3e was obviously just getting better and better...
Wow that was almost exactly my exprience. I could have wrote that paragraph myself. Except our opions diverge at 4E, in that I think it is an improvement over 3.5 in everyway.
As for 1st level 4E charecters, I don't see them as necesarily better that 95% percent of the population. Rather they are just blessed by fate. There are the main charecters of the story you as the DM are telling they may not be the most powerful people in the world but ultimately its thier story.
But I think its a mistake to think too much of fluff (your story) and mechanics (PC stats) in the same way. Much of the game's mechanics (and almost all of the combat mechanics) are abstractions while fluff is literal. HP, AC, level, combat turns etc. are all abstractions. Meanwhile non-rule things (the history of nation, the structure of a secret society, a roleplayed converstation between a PC and the King) are not abstractions. I only want game mechanics for things that happen "on screen" (happening in the prescence of the PC's). I do not need nor want rules to cover things that happen off screen, I will take care of that.
Also another observation the human rabble monster, used to represnt very pathetic combatants who are very common in the world, has a 14 strength. So if for instance, a PC had a 10 str then one way to look at it is, that he is very below average.
(...) That's how I "red" it anyway. ;)
That was my intent. No ill will here
DB
To me, putting information up like that in a large collected resource for everyone to use and then modify is "shared". Asking for "this is the way it is" is more along the lines of "consistent" to me. You want your world that you like and IMO are hiding behind the word "shared". I can't agree on your "shared" argument because I just cannot fundamentally get that out of it when what you're asking, in every sense to me, is that everything be entirely consistent (eg canon). Canon to me is the complete and utterly opposite side of the spectrum to "shared" in this sense.
Darth_Caffeineus, Stigger: just make a low magic setting in 4E and don't modify anything. Your PCs will be basically murdered like mewling sheep in high heroic and then paragon/epic tiers will be massacres.
To me, putting information up like that in a large collected resource for everyone to use and then modify is "shared". Asking for "this is the way it is" is more along the lines of "consistent" to me. You want your world that you like and IMO are hiding behind the word "shared".
I'm not a canon slave by any means - the world I like is entirely my own and differs vastly from the official one -, so I have to say your conjecture falls flat. Call it consistent instead of shared for all I care. I'm not interested in what term is applied to the principle, I only wanted to get my point across.
DB
And how is that common ground, as in "shared gaming environment" in the sense it was used? Maybe you could use Aegeri's stuff. Maybe you'd think it sucks. Maybe something inbetween. Still, it's not exactly common ground, it's something Aegeri came up with and lets you use.
The question really is how is it not common ground?
He (Aegeri) and I both play in the 4E Realms. As it happens, we have games in Cormyr.
So not only do we share the same setting and rules, but the same location in that setting. Can't get much more shared than that.
I've often wondered how I should portray the nobility, the War Wizards and even the King himself differently than I did for my 3E Realms game (also set in Cormyr).
Aegeri's stuff could help me. Sure I might not like it, but I doubt it.
That's what I'm getting at: With the 4E Realms in its infancy, we're back to square one. While that reduces for some the good feeling in having a sense of a shared gaming environment (owing to a dearth of lore), that does not, in my opinion, indicate a lack of shared purpose, common knowledge and even cooperation.
I apologize if my last post came off as antagonistic and/or a misrepresentation of what you were saying. That was not my intent.
But the more people divert from common, shared lore, the less useful it will be to everyone who was drawn in by canon lore. And posts bear that out.
Sorry Therise, it just sounds like personal preference there (which I can respect) and not fact.
Good ideas come from all sorts of places. Even DMs who run wild, end-of-the-Realms campaigns have a lot they can share with the DMs of other, more settled Realms campaigns.
Having had such discussions myself, I know this.
I'm surprised to see you speak authoritatively about the Realms-L list. Never saw you there (under Therise). Not even once.
Darth_Caffeineus, Stigger: just make a low magic setting in 4E and don't modify anything. Your PCs will be basically murdered like mewling sheep in high heroic and then paragon/epic tiers will be massacres.
I guess it comes down to having little incentive to do so... 4e doesn't have enough pluses to outweigh its negatives as it relates to my preferred style of play.
I'm surprised to see you speak authoritatively about the Realms-L list. Never saw you there (under Therise). Not even once.
Why so surprised? Did you use "Mr_Miscellany" there? Weren't you "Sanishiver" or something?
The question really is how is it not common ground?
Let me quote myself:
And how is that common ground, as in "shared gaming environment" in the sense it was used?
Sure, as soon as you both use Aegeri's notes, you two have common ground - but that's ultimately not what we've been talking about. We've been talking about common ground for all FR gamers, and how - and why - that can be an advantage for a certain kind of gamer. One is a basis of discussion: For example, you can evaluate and classify a fellow GM's changes based on your knowledge of the official description of X. Basically you just have more to talk about with fellow gamers when there's much common ground. Of course you can tell me about all the lore you've come up with for a region that hasn't been detailed, but we can't really discuss it beyond "I like it" or "I don't like it" because we have little common ground.
The other advantage is a wide selection of possibilities. Don't like something? Just throw it out, ignore it, change it, whatever. Love the ideas, but don't agree with the execution? Build it from the ground up and use only the more fleshed-out stuff you actually like, come up with the rest yourself. (That's what I've done.) We've all heard of problems based on subjective perception. ("My fellow gamers don't take me seriously because I don't have the vast knowledge they do." / "Mystra and her Chosen are too prevalent, and because he likes the craptastic novels, my GM uses them that way, to boot." / "I don't like the amount of lore, but if I ignored it, I wouldn't be playing right, would I?") But apart from these I can't think of the depth of the lore as anything else than a win-win situation. Like it? Use it as is. Don't like it? Ignore or change it.
The thing is, some people expect most of the work to be already done for them when they shell out their money for an RPG product. Some love to delve into detailed lore and discuss it with like-minded people. Some just don't have the time to flesh out a bare-bones setting. The new 4e FR just isn't the optimal setting for these people. They all have to do the work themselves. Before at least they had a choice.
I apologize if my last post came off as antagonistic and/or a misrepresentation of what you were saying. That was not my intent.
No offense taken
DB
Well, good bet it wasn't under Mr. Tact... :D
First official Awesome Point for 2009 goes to Stigger. Keep track of your score plz. Only one awarded max per day.
There is no more point talking about this and both "sides" are going to start looking silly again. Like Markus said we are just arguing over pretend worlds. Adults, arguing over make believe stuff. I mean you can continue by all means, I just wanted to point out the utter futility of it all.
There is no more point talking about this and both "sides" are going to start looking silly again. Like Markus said we are just arguing over pretend worlds. Adults, arguing over make believe stuff. I mean you can continue by all means, I just wanted to point out the utter futility of it all.
There is no more point talking about this and both "sides" are going to start looking silly again. Like Markus said we are just arguing over pretend worlds. Adults, arguing over make believe stuff. I mean you can continue by all means, I just wanted to point out the utter futility of it all.
For me it's a welcome break from writing about how the Abolethic Sovereignty in the Inner Sea (and the other associated evils of the deep in the Sword Coast) are basically engaging in a wide spread holocaust of Sea Elves, Tritons and the other underwater civilizations.
All I know is my players are going to love Unfettered Krakens.
Why so surprised?
I never once ran across a female with your posting style on that list.
There were more than a few men that posted like you (Paul W. comes to mind) but no women.
And you appear to have only recently joined Candlekeep.com.
Leaves me with a lot of doubts, that.
As to Therise and the L-thingy... maybe she was *gasp* a lurker... or possibly a she masquerading as a he, or perhaps a he masquerading as a she who was masquerading as a he who is now masquerading as a she again... or something. Does it really matter? This is the internet afterall, full of frauds, charlatans, fakes, and dupes... that's half the fun though. :D
As to Therise and the L-thingy... maybe she was *gasp* a lurker... or possibly a she masquerading as a he, or perhaps a he masquerading as a she who was masquerading as a he who is now masquerading as a she again... or something. Does it really matter? This is the internet afterall, full of frauds, charlatans, fakes, and dupes... that's half the fun though. :D
I'm really this guy.
I never once ran across a female with your posting style on that list.
There were more than a few men that posted like you (Paul W. comes to mind) but no women.
And you appear to have only recently joined Candlekeep.com.
Leaves me with a lot of doubts, that.
Heh, your "Mr_Miscellany" alt only joined Candlekeep in Oct. 2008, so keep working on it, Encyclopedia Brown. :P
I'm really this guy
Awesome Point awarded to :gasp: Therise!
Only one awarded max per day. Keep track of your score plz.
Heh, your "Mr_Miscellany" alt only joined Candlekeep in Oct. 2008, so keep working on it, Encyclopedia Brown. :P
You looked me up! Now I'm getting all warm and fuzzy inside. :D
I used to post under my regular account there, but it got locked in a cage and thrown into the catacombs with Miirym, "The Sentinel Wyrm".
Thou shalt not challenge the opinions of the monks at Candlekeep, for they are sacrosanct.
Awesome Point awarded to :gasp: Therise!
Uh oh... watch out. He forgot to close his quote tag and he's giddy! Or he's planning something sinister.
You looked me up! Now I'm getting all warm and fuzzy inside. :D
So far, you're 3/3 on symptoms of influenza. I suggest bed rest and plenty of fluids.
Thou shalt not challenge the opinions of the monks at Candlekeep, for they are sacrosanct.
Not really, they just have more highly evolved moderation.
The moderators and administrators at Candlekeep are some of the best I've known and they've been very efficient at keeping forums there a friendly place where people feel welcome.
Completely agree.
I remember this cartoon and am always amused by it. It is so true. Good times.
There is no excuse for bad writing. That's why this mess is fought over so much. Because they've had many chances to fix the problems that are extant, and yet, every successive attempt only causes more damage.
There is no more point talking about this and both "sides" are going to start looking silly again. Like Markus said we are just arguing over pretend worlds. Adults, arguing over make believe stuff. I mean you can continue by all means, I just wanted to point out the utter futility of it all.
A wonderful point by Rauric. I am tempted, however, to point out that about half the things that "Adults" argue about are technically make-believe and where different people draw that line varies tremendously at times.
That said I would like to proffer a couple of questions in an attempt to possibly steer this topic away from pure restatement of personal opinion and towards matters that can be debated.
In this thread (and others) I have taken care to read and, I hope, understand the views of others. The contrast between "Campaign Lore" and its subordinate, "Setting Lore" has been highlighted to me. Something of which I am not acquainted myself due to the nature of my interactions with the Realms thus far. With that as a backdrop the following queries occurred to me:
1) In a setting with less information/lore "consistent" between games (either by design or by setting age) and, seemingly, less interest in discussing Setting Lore than Campaign Lore, is there any need to preserve the Realmslore board on these forums?
I ask this as it seems that in being set apart from the "Running the Realms" and "General" boards suggests that "Realmslore" maintains an internal identity rather than one that relies solely upon the games being run. Yet, I have often read that this is not so. A quick sub-question then, along the lines of whether a tree falling in a forest makes a sound...
Does the Realms as a Setting and Realmslore in itself have a value even when it is not being used to run a game? What do people think?
2) Whether or not that is the case, what place do the novels and novel based discussions have on these boards? Based on the possibilities of the spectrum between an extensive novel line or a significantly attenuated output where would people prefer to see those threads and that information in future?
This is an inquiry in what I hope are my most neutral terms. Please treat it as such. I am neither starting a battle nor looking for one.
That's because the quality of the pretend world, Rauric, is what's at stake. I've said this a million times, and I need to repeat it again, apparently.
There is no excuse for bad writing. That's why this mess is fought over so much. Because they've had many chances to fix the problems that are extant, and yet, every successive attempt only causes more damage.
The quality of the product is subjective though. I am fine with it and what they did and others do not like it. It is a personal thing and after a long while arguing about such a subjective thing based on personal preference is just redundant and silly to me. Some of the fixes you or Markus have suggested are ok to me and other suggestions I thought were pretty horrible. It is subjective though and all my opinion. Arguing about it for over a page is just pointless.
At this point posting your ideas on what you have done or how you would change things in the current Era would be more productive and useful than just complaining about what "they" have done. Lots of smart, creative gamers around here could/should be just posting there fun creative ideas and just the negative opinion thing a rest IMO.
The only 'perfect' verson of FR is the one that exists in your own head.
And I completely understand the 'lore light' approach. I just detest that one of the most detailed settings ever published is now having that applied to it, because I feel it loses quite a bit of it's charm in the process. However, if they did that to any other setting - or better yet, created a new setting for 4e - I would be applauding them for that.
I learned to game before there were excellent Greyhawk maps - I started with the Judges Guild stuff. I think half the fun of being DM comes from 'filling-in all those minute details'. I understand that some folks have more time then others, and some would prefer just a light backdrop to set their games in.
I have absolutely NO problem with that at all, and it's probably one of the few decisions concerning 4e I could find myself getting behind. Too much detail can, indeed, tie a DM's hands at times.
I just wish it wasn't necessary to deconstruct FR so much to achieve that.
A wonderful point by Rauric. I am tempted, however, to point out that about half the things that "Adults" argue about are technically make-believe and where different people draw that line varies tremendously at times.
Right, adults arguing about make-believe stuff occurs on a regular basis. And at least in this case (arguing about a fantasy world), no one's well-being is actually at stake.
1) In a setting with less information/lore "consistent" between games (either by design or by setting age) and, seemingly, less interest in discussing Setting Lore than Campaign Lore, is there any need to preserve the Realmslore board on these forums?
I have an interest in setting lore, so the board in question does have value to me.
Does the Realms as a Setting and Realmslore in itself have a value even when it is not being used to run a game? What do people think?
Yes, to me it has value, because I think it's a great setting for stories that don't involve games. And, I just like thinking about it.
2) Whether or not that is the case, what place do the novels and novel based discussions have on these boards? Based on the possibilities of the spectrum between an extensive novel line or a significantly attenuated output where would people prefer to see those threads and that information in future?
I think FR stories from novels have value in themselves, but even those who don't care about them can't deny that they are "canon" and affect the game setting, and so there's no reason not to discuss them when appropriate.
Right, adults arguing about make-believe stuff occurs on a regular basis. And at least in this case (arguing about a fantasy world), no one's well-being is actually at stake.
I have an interest in setting lore, so the board in question does have value to me.
Yes, to me it has value, because I think it's a great setting for stories that don't involve games. And, I just like thinking about it.
I think FR stories from novels have value in themselves, but even those who don't care about them can't deny that they are "canon" and affect the game setting, and so there's no reason not to discuss them when appropriate.
Hear, hear, Rin! FR is a setting that is fun to be a part of for the history and mythology involved. When I want a setting, I want something that's well thought out so I know what it feels like to 'live' in the world and react accordingly. I'm not saying that's for everyone, though.
It's probably also why I never could get into the MMORPGs since everything felt like if you pull back the curtain, the wizard's just some guy flipping switches and pressing buttons. ;)
1) In a setting with less information/lore "consistent" between games (either by design or by setting age) and, seemingly, less interest in discussing Setting Lore than Campaign Lore, is there any need to preserve the Realmslore board on these forums?
Historical lore is always useful for any campaign setting. The way it is now is what the FRCG describes things as and anything that happened in the past can give ideas for future campaigns. For example, one of my campaigns uses a lot of previous lore on the various Seros wars, its causes and such forth. This provided me with an idea for my own campaign that I am now using as a major plot element.
Does the Realms as a Setting and Realmslore in itself have a value even when it is not being used to run a game? What do people think?
Of course it does, though people will obviously like different things and intensely dislike others (many of these will be changes that 4E made).
2) Whether or not that is the case, what place do the novels and novel based discussions have on these boards?
I don't really care, but I would absolutely hate to see a repeat of the giant novel boards mess that occurred previously. We're lucky IMO to be able to discuss novels again (not that I have intentions of ever reading another, but I do know other people are interested in them and I do like to know what sort of things they are doing in novels).
Does it really matter? This is the internet afterall, full of frauds, charlatans, fakes, and dupes...
-Oh, you got that right. You'd be surprised, some of the frauds and fakes around here...
1) In a setting with less information/lore "consistent" between games (either by design or by setting age) and, seemingly, less interest in discussing Setting Lore than Campaign Lore, is there any need to preserve the Realmslore board on these forums?
-The various numbers that I keep track of and post support what I have said for years: Discussion, here, is primarily about the setting, or themes related to the setting, rather than actually running the setting. The Forgotten Realms: Running the Realms section receives around 05-10 posts per day, whereas, most of the time, both Forgotten Realms: General Discussion and Forgotten Realms: Realmslore sections receive 10-25 posts per day. Queries in the Forgotten Realms: Running the Realms section are generally specific concerns, and as such, are answered and done with rather quickly, or consist of things like campaign synopsis', or new PPs/PrCs/etc., which are of limited interest to the population at large. The Forgotten Realms: General Discussion and Forgotten Realms: Realmslore sections, on the other hand, are primarily composed of queries, opinions and ideas that invite continued and ongoing debate, as opposed to questions that ask a specific thing, and require a single specific answer to resolve.
I ask this as it seems that in being set apart from the "Running the Realms" and "General" boards suggests that "Realmslore" maintains an internal identity rather than one that relies solely upon the games being run. Yet, I have often read that this is not so. A quick sub-question then, along the lines of whether a tree falling in a forest makes a sound...
-This is incorrect. Realmslore does not rely solely upon D&D games being run, or a game using any ruleset being run in the Forgotten Realms setting. As you well know.
Does the Realms as a Setting and Realmslore in itself have a value even when it is not being used to run a game? What do people think?
-As evidenced by the ratio of posts per Forgotten Realms section, they do indeed, again, as you yourself know quite well.
2) Whether or not that is the case, what place do the novels and novel based discussions have on these boards? Based on the possibilities of the spectrum between an extensive novel line or a significantly attenuated output where would people prefer to see those threads and that information in future?
-Related to the above, most discussion in the Forgotten Realms: General Discussion and Forgotten Realms: Realmslore sections are either directly or indirectly related to novels. And, with novels being the primary source of Realmslore in the new Forgotten Realms, expect this trend to not only continue, but grow.
Wrote pretty much what I wuld expect her to.
Thank you for your input as always, your Ladyship. I have noted before that you and I tend to agree on things and this has been reenforced yet again. In this case I was, therefore, seeking the opinions of people who aren't likely to agree. Examples of these people would probably be Mr Misc, Aegeri, Rauric and possibly Stigger*. That said...
Historical lore is always useful for any campaign setting. The way it is now is what the FRCG describes things as and anything that happened in the past can give ideas for future campaigns.
Of course it does, though people will obviously like different things and intensely dislike others (many of these will be changes that 4E made).
Thank you for taking the time to answer my query. The above is interesting and illuminating, both parts taken together form an answer to my query. Am I correct in summarising your view as follows:
1) Setting Lore has value, some in and of itself but primarily as something useful in the construction of campaigns.
2) The Realmslore board has a dual use
i) As a repository for the people who enjoy the lore itself.
ii) As place to inquire about lore for use in campaigns.
3) So it is better to maintain the "Running the Realms" and "Realmslore" boards as different sections even though their functions overlap.
If I am incorrect on a point then if you could take the time to further explore the issue for me then I would be most grateful.
I don't really care, but I would absolutely hate to see a repeat of the giant novel boards mess that occurred previously. We're lucky IMO to be able to discuss novels again (not that I have intentions of ever reading another, but I do know other people are interested in them and I do like to know what sort of things they are doing in novels).
I also, would not like to see another novels based conflagration. So if you would prefer to keep novels discussion to a minimum except for generalities of plot then Realmslore would be the best place, in your opinion, to do this?
-The various numbers that I keep track of and post support what I have said for years: Discussion, here, is primarily about the setting, or themes related to the setting, rather than actually running the setting.
I am certainly interested in those numbers and am somewhat heartened by what they may suggest. I wonder whether those proportions will remain the same as 4EFR matures. If it matures (volume wise) in any appreciable fashion.
-This is incorrect. Realmslore does not rely solely upon D&D games being run, or a game using any ruleset being run in the Forgotten Realms setting. As you well know.
-As evidenced by the ratio of posts per Forgotten Realms section, they do indeed, again, as you yourself know quite well.
Addressing these two together: What I "well know" is more what I "personally believe" first of all. Secondly it is irrelevant in this line on inquiry. I am looking for, and have asked for, the views of different people on these questions and not only expect them to diverge from my own view but I would be deeply disappointed if they didn't as that was the point in my asking in the first place. In this I seek to understand the views of other people. Going back to the "arguing about make believe stuff" idea, the value Realmslore is not a purely internal thing. In the same way as Art, Literature, Justice and even Money have both an internal andcommunity decided value I set out to find out the community-value of Realmslore as I was already aware of its internal value to me.
-Related to the above, most discussion in the Forgotten Realms: General Discussion and Forgotten Realms: Realmslore sections are either directly or indirectly related to novels. And, with novels being the primary source of Realmslore in the new Forgotten Realms, expect this trend to not only continue, but grow.
You don't consider DDI to be a primary source of future Realmslore? I will, however, be seriously interested in the direction the novels lines take in future. I just wish people would stop being so damn rude about them as a generalised entity rather than in the specific cases that deserve it ;).
Thank you all for your responses!
* [I have never been able to predict what your opinion on a specific subject might be yet Stigger, it is a nice challenge.]
1) In a setting with less information/lore "consistent" between games (either by design or by setting age) and, seemingly, less interest in discussing Setting Lore than Campaign Lore, is there any need to preserve the Realmslore board on these forums?
Does the Realms as a Setting and Realmslore in itself have a value even when it is not being used to run a game? What do people think?
To the first part, yes, of course there is, if only as a place to reference the past and how it might be incorporated or modified to fit into the current edition and iteration of the setting*. As to whether it has value or not, that's entirely up to the individual, and can't really be quantified objectively. Intrinsically, very little in this world has an actual value other than the one society as a whole places upon it. Value, as a concept, is entirely subjective to begin with though. But, so long as someone deems it worthwhile, Realmslore for its own sake will have value... up until fairly recently, LK was a good example of the sort who valued Realmslore without actively using it (as a whole) to run games, simply for its own sake, if I'm not mistaken.
2) Whether or not that is the case, what place do the novels and novel based discussions have on these boards? Based on the possibilities of the spectrum between an extensive novel line or a significantly attenuated output where would people prefer to see those threads and that information in future?
Whatever place we choose to give them. The discussions here will follow wherever the community as a whole chooses to take them. Personally, I have little to no interest in the novels themselves, but can on occassion find something of worth in the discussions over them, so I can't say I object to their presence. Personally, I prefer sourcebooks over any other medium for Realmslore and game information, but with 4e's advent, I have no interest in even those, as they relate to the mechanics of 4e as a whole, or to the 4e incarnation of the Realms. But that doesn't mean I have lost interest in the Realms, or can't harvest the occassional idea from discussions over the 4e Realms, much less that I will cease participation in discussions about it.
This is an inquiry in what I hope are my most neutral terms. Please treat it as such. I am neither starting a battle nor looking for one.
See, now its statements like these that take the fun out of threads... diplomacy is so overrated. :P
* at least until interest dries up in the Realmslore section, if it ever does. So long as its active, it has a place.
I am certainly interested in those numbers and am somewhat heartened by what they may suggest. I wonder whether those proportions will remain the same as 4EFR matures. If it matures (volume wise) in any appreciable fashion.
-It is likely to remain the roughly the same, in terms of how participation is scattered, with actual contribution dropping off a bit.
You don't consider DDI to be a primary source of future Realmslore? I will, however, be seriously interested in the direction the novels lines take in future. I just wish people would stop being so damn rude about them as a generalised entity rather than in the specific cases that deserve it ;).
-I said 'primary', not only. Novels, in general, give a lot more detail into the setting than sourcebooks or DRAGON article or author/designer responses, or anything else. That said, with the novel line churning out books on a level fairly consistent with what it was in the past, and with there being no new sourcebooks for the Forgotten Realms, and a relative malaise in online DRAGON magazine/DDI concerning articles related to the Forgotten Realms, novels are going to continue to be the primary source of information.
But, so long as someone deems it worthwhile, Realmslore for its own sake will have value... up until fairly recently, LK was a good example of the sort who valued Realmslore without actively using it (as a whole) to run games, simply for its own sake, if I'm not mistaken.
-I still don't.
All I'm saying is that we sometimes go a bit overboard here, with the 'personal cracks', and that we should try to stop being so 'emotionally attached' to a make-believe world.
I love it as much as the rest of you (and we all do love it to some degree, else we wouldn't even be HERE) - but when I find myself getting physically irritated by things being said, it's time to dial-it-back a notch, is all.
Its one thing to defend your hobby; its another thing entirely to want to hurt someone over it.
Edit: And before anyone makes a 'glass houses' crack, I consider myself one of the worst offenders - it's easy enough to dispense advice, but not so easy to follow your own. ;)
I'm not saying that the Realms aren't worth fighting for... or even that these constant back-and-forth arguments aren't somewhat amusing.
All I'm saying is that we sometimes go a bit overboard here, with the 'personal cracks', and that we should try to stop being so 'emotionally attached' to a make-believe world.
I love it as much as the rest of you (and we all do love it to some degree, else we wouldn't even be HERE) - but when I find myself getting physically irritated by things being said, it's time to dial-it-back a notch, is all.
Its one thing to defend your hobby; its another thing entirely to want to hurt someone over it.
Edit: And before anyone makes a 'glass houses' crack, I consider myself one of the worst offenders - it's easy enough to dispense advice, but not so easy to follow your own. ;)
My perception may be a little off, but I thought this discussion was for the most part rather civilized...
DB
Does the Realms as a Setting and Realmslore in itself have a value even when it is not being used to run a game?
Yes almost certainly.
However (and again, all IMO) that importance should not **EVER** have a place of primacy over running games.
As it relates to sourcebooks for Realmslore: Depending on the era you played or play in, there was a degree of additional information to be found in the sourcebooks that provided more details of the setting and (depending on how well it was written) could draw people into the setting itself, making it their focus as much as they were focused on playing D&D.
To a degree that’s was a good thing because it hooks new fans and builds the setting up in their minds, making it all a bit more believable and alive.
But too much lore becomes a problem. Why have we had fluctuating lore content over the past eight years? Because of the bean counters at WotC who assumed more rules = more sales and because lore-laden books (2nd Edition Realms Sourcebooks: I’m pointing my finger at you) don’t do their job as D&D sourcebooks.
Regardless, sourcebook information is there for the DM and the players. It has a benefit for the minority who want setting details but don’t ever play D&D, but it certainly isn’t written for them.
My perception may be a little off, but I thought this discussion was for the most part rather civilized...
DB
Yes, but things have gotten 'heated' on this thread and several others, which is where my whole "it's only make-believe" speech originated.
I just didn't want people to think I no longer cared about FR. ;)
Note the two warnings from the mods, nearly back-to-back on the "opinion of Elminster" thread for just one example.
The quality of the product is subjective though. I am fine with it and what they did and others do not like it. It is a personal thing and after a long while arguing about such a subjective thing based on personal preference is just redundant and silly to me. Some of the fixes you or Markus have suggested are ok to me and other suggestions I thought were pretty horrible. It is subjective though and all my opinion. Arguing about it for over a page is just pointless.
At this point posting your ideas on what you have done or how you would change things in the current Era would be more productive and useful than just complaining about what "they" have done. Lots of smart, creative gamers around here could/should be just posting there fun creative ideas and just the negative opinion thing a rest IMO.
The problem is that the current era is totally implausible. I can't accept the reactions of the characters to some of the situations, and I can't comprehend how the writers came to these conclusions. It really does seem to me like they just sat around, thought of the ten or fifteen most ridiculous things they could come up with, and then took a can of Bud Light, hit the table, and said "Let's Do Them All."
I've said this before many times. When people on the boards are coming up with better explanations than the people who are writing the material, it's time to fire your design team and replace them.
Here are the fifteen things I hate most about the Realms in 4E.
15. The Aboleth Sovereignty. Why? If you want Cthulhu, I'll go play COC. I don't need this sort of roleplaying in the Forgotten Realms. It is totally outside the FR genre. If you absolutely MUST have it, there's still Maulagrym.
14. Dragonborn. Just because there's a race in the PHB doesn't mean you need to include it in every campaign setting. Dragonborn could have been Half-Dragons, and they could have changed NOTHING. Half-Dragon: Use the abilities of Dragonborn in the PHB. You're done. There was no need to change the lore when you could just reskin the race. Yet they felt the need to redo this, and BLOW UP THE WORLD TO DO IT. This is wrong. Never use a nuke when a scalpel will do.
13. Abeir. Again, why? There was no need to create a new continent and change all of the methodology when there was a continent that was already there and fulfilled certain genre requirements for those who enjoy rampant colonialism. If you wanted to have a continent like this, there was a perfectly usable one to the Southwest that had everything you needed for that sort of setup.
12. Baldur's Gate. My god! What were they thinking? It takes an acre of farmland to feed one peasant. Baldur's Gate has fifteen MILLION people? Do these guys have any idea how many acres fifteen million is? A hundred acres is four square miles. So the amount of food that Baldur's Gate needs to feed itself is approximately all the food from Waterdeep to Calimport and East all the way to Semphar. Does magic change this? Not really. Even if you assume it triples the amount, we're still talking an area roughly the size of the United States being necessary under most medieval farming setups.
11. Neverwinter is Gone: You've got to be kidding me. That means that a bottle of Neverwinter Wine is suddenly worth more than a suit of battle plate. Bring it on, boys and girls! Forget fighting battles. I'm building a rogue and robbing wine merchants.
10. Luiren is gone. So now Halflings are homeless people. I've got some game designers I'd like to stab in the knee. This was just a kick in the teeth to everyone who loved halflings. I don't love halflings in 4th edition in general, but in the Realms, I'd rather eat glass than play one now.
9. The Chondalwood Defies Gravity. Who the !@#$! came up with this nonsense? This is the difference between a sword and sorcery game, and a high fantasy game. I like my forests to be FORESTS. Not floating. Not randomly rearranged, just a FOREST. If they're going to do this, I want to know how Squirrels are evolving to deal with this. Ed would have told us this on his own, but these guys just don't care. The right details are everything. This forces the GM to make up stuff which can (And often does) sound like horsecrap. The argument that the GM can't be wrong is often foolhardy.
8. The Great Crater, I mean Rift. If I see one more cataclysm, just one more, this just proves that these guys don't know how to write. Everything does not have to "Shake the Entire World" to make a good story. Crisis on Infinite Earths does not have to be followed by Millennium, Final Crisis, and Crisis of Infinite Crises. The cosmic does not need to take precedence over the local. It's just bad storytelling.
7. Mystra is Dead, Cyric Lives: I hate this so much I can't stand it. Once again, don't change the lore to change the world.
6. Shar is not the Ur-Lady of Everything. I hate this deity. She was never really that important, but she's the designers little pet. Every so often, I run a Shar plot because they make good villains, but they shouldn't be the ONLY villains.
5. Thayvian Mountain!!!!: WHAT? They replaced the complicated, internecine politics that my players loved to weave around and manipulate with "Land of the Undead!" This shows that the designers have no imagination. PEOPLE WITH DIFFERING PERSONALITIES AND GOALS ARE THE WORST ENEMIES, NOT A BUNCH OF STUPID CORPSES WITH AN ANIMATING INTELLIGENCE. Every so often, a lich or a dracolich is a cool creature. But they shouldn't be the only things in Thay. Apparently it was too much of a bother to create nine new interesting Zulkirs. Again, I will repeat my mantra. "There's no excuse for bad writing."
4. Calimshan, Land of the Genie Wars: What in God's name was wrong with Calimshan as it was before? I loved the creepy internecine politics of the Drudaches and the complicated tri-level city ruled by a corrupt Pasha who was a manipulative ass. That was GREAT STUFF. Instead, we now have "The War Between Genies and Humans." If I wanted something that trite, I could come up with it in my sleep. And it would be better than this, and more interesting. There's no excuse for bad writing.
3. Goodbye to the Seven Sisters: You have GOT to be kidding me. This is the most intrinsic part of the entire world, even more intrinsic than Mystra herself. These characters were rich, beautiful, detailed, and a part of the flavor text of the genre. Now, we have the Forgotten Realms of blandness and tofu.
2. Survival of the Monster Kingdom: You CANNOT be serious. The Elves of the Wealdath, the Tethyrians, and Amn would all band together to crush this thing if it lasted more than 25 years. Sotheliss and Cyvisnea are not invincible. The Elves of the Wealdath enslave Green Dragons and bend them to their will. The first serious incursion into the forest for the Monster Kingdom would be it's LAST.
1. The supremacy and invincibility of the Shade Empire and their conquest of Sembia.
Quite frankly, this is the stupidest thing I've ever seen. It presumes that A) There are no heroes anywhere in the world who would take offense enough to trash these people and B) That everyone in Sembia is a total coward completely incapable of seeing through the most basic of ruses.
PEOPLE ARE NOT THIS STUPID! That's the problem I have with this situation. SOMEONE would notice, get mad, and kill large amounts of Shade's followers. Yes, their leaders are very powerful. But if you don't have troops, you can't hold a military position for very long. And no one is willing, when faced with a group of high level adventurers, to be paid enough to die.
My players in the area are level 17. They've just started to get a handle on the Shades and their takeover in mid 1375. Mark my words. There's going to be a lot of dead bodies in Sembia if they do it right, and they'll all have the shade template.
15. The Aboleth Sovereignty. Why? If you want Cthulhu, I'll go play COC. I don't need this sort of roleplaying in the Forgotten Realms. It is totally outside the FR genre.
In some places in the new realms it is overdone, but I disagree entirely with you on every other point given that the underdark has always been an abberation filled nightmare and some groups in FR have made heavy use of abberations (most notably Beholders) before.
The Chondalwood Defies Gravity. Who the !@#$! came up with this nonsense? This is the difference between a sword and sorcery game, and a high fantasy game. I like my forests to be FORESTS. Not floating. Not randomly rearranged, just a FOREST. If they're going to do this, I want to know how Squirrels are evolving to deal with this.
That was easy.
This forces the GM to make up stuff
Flying squirrels.
Also, while I am not being facetious anymore it's more likely that other animals would have moved into the now deserted niches available to them. For example bats and birds would obviously be the predominant wildlife on floating jungle or forest motes. Anything trapped on a sufficiently sized forest mote would follow it's own course of evolution to suit its environment. This would not be significantly different than modern islands in say the Galapagos on earth.
7. Mystra is Dead, Cyric Lives: I hate this so much I can't stand it. Once again, don't change the lore to change the world.
I wish they had killed Cyric as well. Cyric is proof that the Gods in the realms are idiots and the less books written about them making them look like bumbling high level NPC fools the better.
6. Shar is not the Ur-Lady of Everything. I hate this deity. She was never really that important, but she's the designers little pet. Every so often, I run a Shar plot because they make good villains, but they shouldn't be the ONLY villains.
Ironic, given you complain about the Abolethic Sovereignty who are arguably in a more central position to do an incredible amount of damage to many of the more "stable" nations at once. I do agree though Shar is overdone in the setting in general.
5. Thayvian Mountain!!!!: WHAT? They replaced the complicated, internecine politics that my players loved to weave around and manipulate with "Land of the Undead!" This shows that the designers have no imagination.
So, you can do that in a ton of other places in the realms as well if you want. Thay suits me to the ground because I've actually always liked the idea of a large central undead power that is capturing humans for slaves (or more likely, a second go at Szass Tams ritual).
Apparently it was too much of a bother to create nine new interesting Zulkirs. Again, I will repeat my mantra. "There's no excuse for bad writing."
Bad writing is just your opinion. I think it's great.
3. Goodbye to the Seven Sisters: You have GOT to be kidding me. This is the most intrinsic part of the entire world, even more intrinsic than Mystra herself
In your opinion they are but I can tell you that they've only ever dragged down games before in my experience. Them being present would hopefully have the same effect as them not being present on a campaign: EG none. It makes no difference to my games in the realms that they are gone, actually it just makes me happier to run games in the realms again.
Quite frankly, this is the stupidest thing I've ever seen. It presumes that A) There are no heroes anywhere in the world who would take offense enough to trash these people
That's what PCs are for, not overpowered twinkies and Mary-sues. IMO.
Please ORCs, let’s have a mercy killing.
I didn't think Orcs were capable of mercy, what with the chaotic evil alignment and all...
I will, however, address one point of Aegeri's.
Them being present would hopefully have the same effect as them not being present on a campaign: EG none. It makes no difference to my games in the realms that they are gone, actually it just makes me happier to run games in the realms again.
But does make an enormous difference if you were ever hoping to run into them again in either sourcebook or, more to the point, the novels. If the designers a) kill a group of characters, b) move the timeline on into an era when most (if not all) are dead or severely diminished and c) specify that they will not be setting complete novels in the previous era... then this has an extensive and immutable effect on "My Realms".
I will leave it as a general point and not go into the more personal effects on my own purchases and reading habits with respect to the FR novel line in future.
But does make an enormous difference if you were ever hoping to run into them again in either sourcebook or, more to the point, the novels. If the designers a) kill a group of characters, b) move the timeline on into an era when most (if not all) are dead or severely diminished and c) specify that they will not be setting complete novels in the previous era... then this has an extensive and immutable effect on "My Realms".
That is indeed true, especially from the novels point. But then again, I am highly unimpressed with the novels and their effects on things (especially the way NPCs that then impact sourcebooks and the game by extension are portrayed).
Personally I will never read any more novels in FR. I wish what they WOULD do, the smart thing to do (but I know they won't in most likelyhood) is firmly set all novels in the 100 year gap or before. Leave the current realms the hell alone and detail what happened in the gap (adding to a campaigns history), but not interfering with how things are now.
Sadly, that won't happen and I anticipate more Gods acting like morons and such forth.
18DELTA (CYRIC SAVES) ;)
Personally I will never read any more novels in FR. I wish what they WOULD do, the smart thing to do (but I know they won't in most likelyhood) is firmly set all novels in the 100 year gap or before. Leave the current realms the hell alone and detail what happened in the gap (adding to a campaigns history), but not interfering with how things are now.
Sadly, that won't happen and I anticipate more Gods acting like morons and such forth.
Sad indeed. Actually we almost agree on that point. What I wish is that they would have continued the novel line in its extant incarnation. Continue the stories being told in 3E (and before in the case of series' like Ed's Knights of Myth Drannor) and don't just cut them off in their prime so to speak.
That way people who enjoy the novels could have narrative continuity... and the people who don't could have a Setting Unmolested By Novels. A plan with few drawbacks. Will it happen? Nope.
I will always read Ed.
I'll second that one. I will also hold out (faint) hope that Elaine will come back to the franchise.
Yes, I know I am deluding myself.
12. Baldur's Gate. My god! What were they thinking? It takes an acre of farmland to feed one peasant. Baldur's Gate has fifteen MILLION people? Do these guys have any idea how many acres fifteen million is? A hundred acres is four square miles. So the amount of food that Baldur's Gate needs to feed itself is approximately all the food from Waterdeep to Calimport and East all the way to Semphar. Does magic change this? Not really. Even if you assume it triples the amount, we're still talking an area roughly the size of the United States being necessary under most medieval farming setups.
There's actually 640 acres to one square mile. As for the hyperbolic estimate of the amount of land involved, it's a little bit less than the area of West Virginia assuming 1 acre/person. Available land area is the last thing that makes it a problem.
Personally, I'd have thought that The Fields of the Dead region would have been much better for a big undead nation... especially considering one of Thay's major exports was food, which would undoubtedly have a considerable effect on nations it traded with. Seemed a little ill-conceived in that respect.
Having been an avid Age of Wonders player for almost ten years, I've always wanted an all-out cliché nation of the undead. Since I couldn't be bothered with accepting a hot desert in the North that even has Bedines (I mean, seriously...), I relocated Larloch, put him in the Anauroch and gave him loads of undead. Et voilà.
Having said that, even I as a fan of the walking dead think that doing away with the interesting country of Thay with all its plot hooks for a concept so... blah was uninspired, to put it nicely.
While I don't agree with much of msatran's reasoning, I do agree with some of his dislikes. So far almost none of the changes appeal to me. In fact, to me most of them seem very... mediocre? Unimaginative? The easy way out? Hardly thought through? Over the top? In many cases all of it, I'm afraid. To think that the designers get paid to come up with this bundle of boredom... Well, one of msatran's statements deserves to be quoted for truth more than all the others:
I've said this before many times. When people on the boards are coming up with better explanations than the people who are writing the material, it's time to fire your design team and replace them.
Unfortunately not everyone thinks so, so obviously they won't get fired and can keep doing with the Realms... whatever they're doing. But oh, how I wish they'd sell the IP.
DB
They could hardly do otherwise than to destroy the Realms as we know it, considering how incompatible 4th edition is from all 3 previous editions. 4th Edition it seems was built exclusively for minatures based gaming, you could hardly do anything in 4th edition without moving something on the board to represent your characters, they explicitly spell out what all your character's options are and what his choices or action is. I think this is not very surprising considering that Hasbro, being the owner of Wizards is a toy company, being that, I can see that it will want to manufacture as many D&D minatures as possible, and it will thusly design its 4th editions so as to get you to buy those miniatures. When I was growing up, the most I ever did was draw lines on graph paper to indicate my characters position with respect to all the objects in the room and the location of potential enemies in it, I drew arrows to show motion and to count out the squares to make sure he can reach an enemy with his melee weapon, the rest was my imagination. Hasbro also makes board games, and it seems to me that an effort was made to make D&D as much like a board game with pieces and board as possible, because then Hasbro has a reason to manufacture these things and the minatures also and to sell them to you. I prefer old style role playing games, with pen, pencil, dice, and three rulebooks, and maybe a published adventure, but I like to make up my own adventures as well when I'm the DM, having to provide all these maps and minatures, in preparation for my game makes it expensive for me. The Forgotten Realms was a magical place, the imagineers who made it and those who inherited it, we forced to make changes to it to make it 4th edition compliant, and they needed a place for the Dragonborn to live, so the sunk or eliminated Maztica, I've seen this happen to Dragonlance also, they've changed it in so many ways that its completely unrecognizable to me now. I have a serious case of Change Fatigue with these worlds. I wish Wizards would leave well enough alone and stop changing the D&D game so much! 1st and 2nd editions were the longest lived editions, 3rd edition came too quickly and died too soon, soon as I get used to it, they go on to 4th edition and its a completely different game, and a huge learning curve that dwarfs even the changes from second to third edition. In the best of all possible worlds I'd wish that Wizards would republish the 3rd edition rules along side the 4th edition D&D and market them as seperate games. I think 4th edition has too many new concepts that are hard to adapt to, and too much minatures focus for my taste. I prefer to use my imagination that to use battlegrids for every combat encounter, they just take too long to set up.
Amen!
Currently, I still am disgusted by 4E and what they did to the Realms. Reading through the material and actually DMing the game with some high school kids for a "D&D Club" has also taught me a few things about 4E:
---Combat isn't any faster. In fact, it's THRICE as hard to keep track of everything going on, what with the auras, immediate actions/interrupts, standard/move/minor actions, triggered and bloodied actions, keeping track of all the conditions, constantly looking them up and trying to remember which conditions ended on what turn and when (beginning or end?) and so on. That's with both the PCs and their enemies. How can any DM provide good encounters if he has to be aware of so much chaos!? 3rd Edition is STILL much more streamlined and the combat length is just the same.
---The books that have been released are ALL geared towards ultimate min-maxing. If you can't see that then I really don't know what else to tell you to convince you of that. There's no fluff and when you do find it, it's in a small puddle of a "sidebar" at the corner of a few pages.
---To stay on topic, Realms material is over unless you subscribe to DDI. It was better back then when they would released campaign books every month. You bought it if you needed it as opposed to subscribing to DDI for the once a month FR article you get.
[EDIT] One more thing, you're getting even LESS bang for your buck. The amount of material you get in the 4E books is considerably much less than in any 3E book. The font size is increased (except for the *gasp* crunchy Class Powers) compared to the font size you would see in the 3rd Edition Player's Handbook and other products (FRCS book trumps them all, that book is definitely worth the $40 compared to 4E Draconomicon I). I don't go by word count since most of the word count is in the Class Powers.
The problem is that the current era is totally implausible. I can't accept the reactions of the characters to some of the situations, and I can't comprehend how the writers came to these conclusions. It really does seem to me like they just sat around, thought of the ten or fifteen most ridiculous things they could come up with, and then took a can of Bud Light, hit the table, and said "Let's Do Them All."
I've said this before many times. When people on the boards are coming up with better explanations than the people who are writing the material, it's time to fire your design team and replace them.
Here are the fifteen things I hate most about the Realms in 4E.
15. The Aboleth Sovereignty. Why? If you want Cthulhu, I'll go play COC. I don't need this sort of roleplaying in the Forgotten Realms. It is totally outside the FR genre. If you absolutely MUST have it, there's still Maulagrym.
Why not? How is it outside the FR genre when it is already in every prior incarnation of the FR?
14. Dragonborn. Just because there's a race in the PHB doesn't mean you need to include it in every campaign setting. Dragonborn could have been Half-Dragons, and they could have changed NOTHING. Half-Dragon: Use the abilities of Dragonborn in the PHB. You're done. There was no need to change the lore when you could just reskin the race. Yet they felt the need to redo this, and BLOW UP THE WORLD TO DO IT. This is wrong. Never use a nuke when a scalpel will do.
Apparently the designers decided that a re-skin was not optimal, and I actually agree with them. Half Dragons smacked of munchkinism, and what sort of FR specific lore was there really for them? The FR has been "BLOWN UP" before for lesser reasons, and Dragonborn are far from the only reason or even the number one reason they reset the setting.
13. Abeir. Again, why? There was no need to create a new continent and change all of the methodology when there was a continent that was already there and fulfilled certain genre requirements for those who enjoy rampant colonialism. If you wanted to have a continent like this, there was a perfectly usable one to the Southwest that had everything you needed for that sort of setup.
Because a whole lot of people hated what was there to begin with, probably because it was not "Realmsy" enough. Personally I would have been happier with a retcon of the area, but I have no real problem with Abeir.
12. Baldur's Gate. My god! What were they thinking? It takes an acre of farmland to feed one peasant. Baldur's Gate has fifteen MILLION people? Do these guys have any idea how many acres fifteen million is? A hundred acres is four square miles. So the amount of food that Baldur's Gate needs to feed itself is approximately all the food from Waterdeep to Calimport and East all the way to Semphar. Does magic change this? Not really. Even if you assume it triples the amount, we're still talking an area roughly the size of the United States being necessary under most medieval farming setups.
Where did you get your 15 million figure from? A source and page number would be helpful. Based on what I have been able to discern your figure is high by at least 13 million. Secondly there are 640 acres to a square mile, so even using your numbers Baldurs gate would need to control an area of arable land roughly 150 miles by 150 miles, hardly impossible. It is pretty obvious that Baldurs Gate imports food, which makes this argument even less relevant.
11. Neverwinter is Gone: You've got to be kidding me. That means that a bottle of Neverwinter Wine is suddenly worth more than a suit of battle plate. Bring it on, boys and girls! Forget fighting battles. I'm building a rogue and robbing wine merchants.
No they are not kidding, of course from what I have read it is being rebuilt. As to the wine, you are assuming that there is enough demand for Neverwinter wine to make it "Priceless". Along with this an apparent assumption that a high enough level of economic sophistication and disposable income exist in the FR to support such a market for collector's of wine.
10. Luiren is gone. So now Halflings are homeless people. I've got some game designers I'd like to stab in the knee. This was just a kick in the teeth to everyone who loved halflings. I don't love halflings in 4th edition in general, but in the Realms, I'd rather eat glass than play one now.
Is there a problem with not having a "homeland"? Certainly has not prevented my players from playing halflings.
9. The Chondalwood Defies Gravity. Who the !@#$! came up with this nonsense? This is the difference between a sword and sorcery game, and a high fantasy game. I like my forests to be FORESTS. Not floating. Not randomly rearranged, just a FOREST. If they're going to do this, I want to know how Squirrels are evolving to deal with this. Ed would have told us this on his own, but these guys just don't care. The right details are everything. This forces the GM to make up stuff which can (And often does) sound like horsecrap. The argument that the GM can't be wrong is often foolhardy.
Once again please site your source, a page number would be helpful too. Based on what I have read your initial comment is ludicrous in how wrong it is.
8. The Great Crater, I mean Rift. If I see one more cataclysm, just one more, this just proves that these guys don't know how to write. Everything does not have to "Shake the Entire World" to make a good story. Crisis on Infinite Earths does not have to be followed by Millennium, Final Crisis, and Crisis of Infinite Crises. The cosmic does not need to take precedence over the local. It's just bad storytelling.
One more dead magic zone, one more god stomping through the realms, one more god being resurrected, one more wild magic zone, one more RSE...seriously how is this any different form the past.
7. Mystra is Dead, Cyric Lives: I hate this so much I can't stand it. Once again, don't change the lore to change the world.
Never liked Cyric but seeing Mystra go away for a time, puts a big fat smile on my face.
6. Shar is not the Ur-Lady of Everything. I hate this deity. She was never really that important, but she's the designers little pet. Every so often, I run a Shar plot because they make good villains, but they shouldn't be the ONLY villains.
I guess it was perfect when Mystra and brood were in the driver's seat? I hate GODS always being the answer, something that has unfortunately not changed.
5. Thayvian Mountain!!!!: WHAT? They replaced the complicated, internecine politics that my players loved to weave around and manipulate with "Land of the Undead!" This shows that the designers have no imagination. PEOPLE WITH DIFFERING PERSONALITIES AND GOALS ARE THE WORST ENEMIES, NOT A BUNCH OF STUPID CORPSES WITH AN ANIMATING INTELLIGENCE. Every so often, a lich or a dracolich is a cool creature. But they shouldn't be the only things in Thay. Apparently it was too much of a bother to create nine new interesting Zulkirs. Again, I will repeat my mantra. "There's no excuse for bad writing."
If you choose to look at it as a country of one it is your prerogative, but I don't think that is the intent, nor does anything written to date support your simple analysis. It in fact opens up numerous story lines, it is not the designers or writers fault if you choose to ignore the obvious.
4. Calimshan, Land of the Genie Wars: What in God's name was wrong with Calimshan as it was before? I loved the creepy internecine politics of the Drudaches and the complicated tri-level city ruled by a corrupt Pasha who was a manipulative ass. That was GREAT STUFF. Instead, we now have "The War Between Genies and Humans." If I wanted something that trite, I could come up with it in my sleep. And it would be better than this, and more interesting. There's no excuse for bad writing.
Ummmm...this is what Calimshan was before, perhaps not the before you are commenting on but there is certainly support for it. I however agree with you on this point, so far the Calimshan change seems to be less than ideal. Of course a not so obvious theme in the new FR and in 4th edition D&D is easier access to plane travel, when taken in the context of this and the new cosmology it actually make sense, but couold need some fleshing out. As far as it being "The War Between Genies and Humans" well once again I think you are missing out on many levels what it is about. Remember the FRCG is essentially a primer, it was not meant to spell everything out for you like FR products of the past.
3. Goodbye to the Seven Sisters: You have GOT to be kidding me. This is the most intrinsic part of the entire world, even more intrinsic than Mystra herself. These characters were rich, beautiful, detailed, and a part of the flavor text of the genre. Now, we have the Forgotten Realms of blandness and tofu.
You know many of us thought they were the height of cheese and are very happy to see them redefined or gone. You know familiarity breeds contempt.
2. Survival of the Monster Kingdom: You CANNOT be serious. The Elves of the Wealdath, the Tethyrians, and Amn would all band together to crush this thing if it lasted more than 25 years. Sotheliss and Cyvisnea are not invincible. The Elves of the Wealdath enslave Green Dragons and bend them to their will. The first serious incursion into the forest for the Monster Kingdom would be it's LAST.
Right and the Elves of the Wealdath had to cry to outsiders for help, and Amn never had any problems overseas or to the South, and Tethyr is one big happy kingdom. Really any commentary as to how survivable a "Monster Kingdom" is falls squarely under a blanket of plot device, or In My Realms. No one seemed to cry too much about it being created, what is the problem now?
1. The supremacy and invincibility of the Shade Empire and their conquest of Sembia.
Quite frankly, this is the stupidest thing I've ever seen. It presumes that A) There are no heroes anywhere in the world who would take offense enough to trash these people and B) That everyone in Sembia is a total coward completely incapable of seeing through the most basic of ruses.
PEOPLE ARE NOT THIS STUPID! That's the problem I have with this situation. SOMEONE would notice, get mad, and kill large amounts of Shade's followers. Yes, their leaders are very powerful. But if you don't have troops, you can't hold a military position for very long. And no one is willing, when faced with a group of high level adventurers, to be paid enough to die.
My players in the area are level 17. They've just started to get a handle on the Shades and their takeover in mid 1375. Mark my words. There's going to be a lot of dead bodies in Sembia if they do it right, and they'll all have the shade template.
Ever think for the moment that what has been presented is done with large brush strokes. Once again the resolution of it in the past, or in your campaign is a matter of "IN MY REALMS", the official realms have moved on, and guess what somehow the Shades did what they did. We don't have every little detail and we are not going to get them, they serve no purpose except as history.
But I find it odd you claim this is a "Shared" gameworld when what you really should be saying is that it's not the gameworld that suits your preferences anymore. The example of King Foril illustrates the point for me. You want it so that he's set in stone in a way you like or want. I want it the opposite so I can make him whatever I want. 4E suits me far better in that regard, because I can make him whatever I want or need to suit the game I am running. You could do the same thing if you wanted.
That makes it far more of a "shared" world in my opinion, as opposed to "this is written exactly like this" world. Possibly there is something I plain don't get about what you are trying to claim here, unless you are meaning consistency between everyones realms must be the same (EG written in canon) in terms of "shared". Though that doesn't seemed shared at all, it just says "this is consistent and sucks to be you if you don't like OUR consistency".
I know what I prefer.
But there HAS to be some consistency in a published game world and not leave it to 1,000,000 different interpretations.
Otherwise, what exactly is the point of publishing a premade game world? We all might as well ditch all previously published campaign settings and use the 4E PHB as the "building blocks" they want us to use them for. Then, just release "campaign neutral" material like Manual of the Planes, Deities&Demigods, Oriental Adventures, and others.
Now that I think more about it, I really don't see the need for campaign settings anymore in 4E considering the concept they want to take D&D in and the demographic they want to rake in.
So considering the obvious route WotC is taking D&D, can anyone explain a valid reason in having ANY campaign setting published anymore? (and, heck, they're already almost there since it's only 3 books/setting per year!) Other than the complete apocalyptic changes they will HAVE to make to every single setting (even Eberron has to suffer some big changes).
Play A warlord, or a rouge mutli class warlord. A cleric with a little reflavouring and rouge multi class would also work well. Both would get you the skill set you are looking for, and as an added bounus your charecter would not be sadled with the underpowered pile of suck that was the 3E bard.
Also have you seen the 4E bard preview its quite impresive?
The PHB2 has 8 new classes, several new races, plus lots of stuff for every other class. Your unhappy about this why?
Because he has to spend another $35 or $40 on something that should've been core to the game originally. Everyone admits it by now, you get a LOT less bang for your buck with the 4E PHB than you did with the 3E PHB.
I missed this earlier and I’m sorry I did.
You’ve hit on a flaw in the 4E mechanics and something my own players observed as well. The 4E mechanics don’t support the kind of roleplaying that gamers enjoy by creating and running an inferior character (game stats wise).
Sure you can take sub-par scores, but the “feeling” of being inferior or average wont’ be there, because of how 4E portrays class powers and abilities. Not sure how else to say it. I guess you could say the mechanics are not as organic as the previous edition’s rules.
Don’t kill me for saying this: 4E is like 2E in that you have your stats, your class and boom, ready to play. 4E does still have skills, but the linking between intelligence score and skill points isn’t there like it was in 3E so you don’t have that game mechanics tie in that helped show why a character was average.
Which drives me nuts about 4E. There's no real difference between Rogue #1 and Rogue #2 other than the powers they chose and maybe the feats. True multiclassing is gone, a more detailed skill system is gone, and, well, a LOT of RP elements are gone. I find it VERY strange that the PHB2 does not present new skills because the preview Bard did not show any "Perform" skill listed.
So I hear pro-4E people say stuff like "It's 4E, if you want your guy to be good at playing the ocarina, then say he is." but then HOW good is he?
Say I have a Realms Bard and I come upon a fey creature guarding a fey crossroads. The DM wants it so that music (just like in 3E Realms) or poetry allows access to the crossroads. So it's half-level + ability score? So, you mean to tell me EVERY character is equally good at playing the ocarina or the drums or whatever?
I wonder if the DMG2 will present these sorts of options, ESPECIALLY Craft and Profession skills (does anyone have any idea how many times archer characters ask how many arrows can they fletch in one night? 3rd Edition has rules for that, 4E doesn't!). Then again I won't be surprised if it is missing, since it seems WotC believes the only thing D&D players care about is adventuring, kicking down the door, slaying things and gaining phat lewt. (there's already a TON of items released, now an Adventurer's Vault 2 is being released at the end of the year?!)
That's what PCs are for, not overpowered twinkies and Mary-sues. IMO.
Ok, to this day I never understood the logic behind this assessment.
So, you mean to tell me that the only heroes in a D&D game ARE the PCs? So if you're playing in, say, a massive world like FR, are the PCs like the Justice League except for the fact that they're the ONLY superheroes in the whole world? Do PCs in 4E receive free teleportation whenever danger arises and is the DM supposed to be Zordon from Power Rangers?
What about the ages before the PCs existence? No heroes? How did the world survive calamities then? Is every legendary NPC from the past formerly a PC in disguise? What if the PCs all die, a new group is made, do the old PCs transfer their great cosmic power into the new ones like in Dragon Ball Z?
As you can see, I scoff at the notion that the PCs should be the ONLY characters with the spotlight. Not true. They should be the MAIN characters, yes, but not the only ones with the spotlight.
So, you mean to tell me that the only heroes in a D&D game ARE the PCs?
Yep. In my campaigns they are. They can get allies and such during a game, but they are the ones who ultimately have to do the right thing. Previous heroes have risen as well, but also have moved on to other planes, time reclaimed them or whatever else.
No need for any pre-existing justice league.
What about the ages before the PCs existence? No heroes? How did the world survive calamities then?
There were previous groups, after all I have three groups and a timeline detailing what is happening in each quite currently. In every sense to me, my players are telling the stories of those heroes, who they were and what happened to them.
Because he has to spend another $35 or $40 on something that should've been core to the game originally. Everyone admits it by now, you get a LOT less bang for your buck with the 4E PHB than you did with the 3E PHB.
Everyone? What a bold statement, but allow me to entirely disagree. I find the 4E books have generally good consistent crunch and unlike 3rd edition, which may have more word count, there is far less crap that I just have to outright ban (because it's broken) or similar in 4E than 3E. I had many pages of changes and similar to anything in 3E (which just got worse as more increasingly broken splat books came out) and thus far have only 2 alterations that suit my campaign (saving throw stacking and banning the adventurers vault items the ritualists ring and critical hit solitaire).
That could change in future of course I don't deny it, but thus far 4th edition is doing a better job supplement wise to me than 3rd edition.
So I hear pro-4E people say stuff like "It's 4E, if you want your guy to be good at playing the ocarina, then say he is." but then HOW good is he?
As good as you want because it's fairly irrelevant to anything. It's supposed to be a roleplaying element (as you claim), so therefore he's as good as you decide he should be. I find no need for rules dictating such things myself and in fact, never used them in 3rd edition either. If a player wanted to be a blacksmith, I simply let him and if he had the time and materials, he would simply make what he wanted.
Your real complaint is that 4E is not simulationist, which is not a problem for everyone by far.
But there HAS to be some consistency in a published game world and not leave it to 1,000,000 different interpretations.
Which the current FRCG now provides, except that it leaves more room for a DM to decide how the game he is running actually progresses. Which is fine by me.
The FRCG reduces my base workload a lot and that's all I require from it.
Having been an avid Age of Wonders player for almost ten years, I've always wanted an all-out cliché nation of the undead. Since I couldn't be bothered with accepting a hot desert in the North that even has Bedines (I mean, seriously...), I relocated Larloch, put him in the Anauroch and gave him loads of undead. Et voilà.
I really can't be bothered with reading through this thread anymore, but I know your posts usually give me some good ideas.
You never fail to deliver. :D
I'm loving that for the Anauroch - it has a whole 'Tomb Kings' feel to it, without being overly WH derivitive (Liches instead of mummies). Lots and LOTS of great material that can be used in that scenario right out of the Sandstorm book.
Instead of boring desert (filled with shadow-creatures, no less! :uh-huh
, it makes for a cool 'corrupted wastes' region smack-dab in the middle of Faerûn.Then again... isn't that Eberron? ;)
I was going to go this way with the Raurin, but Anauroch is so much more 'centralized', and thereofe better, for this sort of treatment - Nice call.
Yep. In my campaigns they are. They can get allies and such during a game, but they are the ones who ultimately have to do the right thing. Previous heroes have risen as well, but also have moved on to other planes, time reclaimed them or whatever else.
No need for any pre-existing justice league.
Hmmmm...
Does this mean your group would be totally incapable of playing in a LFR game, because... ya know... some of those other players around the world might be 'cooler' then your guys?
I'm sorry if I'm coming off sarcastic, but I find the whole concept of the LFR goes against the concept of 4eFR - where YOU and YOUR group are the 'bestest heroes that ever wusest'.
This thread is getting silly very quickly again and I can see us all going around in circles again very quickly. Some people have a hard time wrapping their head around how they or a DM can ignore things they dislike or make the new Realms "feel" the same way the 2E or 3E Realms felt. Some folks can work it out though and are fine with it. **BAM** end of story.
That was not the point. That was never the point.
I could use the 4th Edition 'Realms' to create a Game of Thrones style game, if I change enough of the Core Assumptions of the Realms. However, at a certain point, it stops being a Realms game and morphs into something else.
Changes of that magnitude have occurred between the pre Spellplague and post Spellplague Realms, to the point where if I were running a Realms game, I'd have to specify which type of game I was running, to avoid confusion. Before, I could just say 'It's going to be a Realms game', and people would have a good idea what that meant. But now, because so many of the Core Assumptions have changed, I have to specify. To my mind, this makes the settings very different.
Essentially, if I had a player who's idea of the Realms came from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, his idea of the Realms would be radically different to the one I have, which comes from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (and prior sources). The type of campaign I would want to run, as indicated in prior posts, would not correspond to the Core Assumptions of the Realms that said theoretical player has.
That is my problem with the current 'Realms'.
Though I'd agree that 3e was considerably more simulationist, which suits me far better than the alternative. To each their own though.
Does this mean your group would be totally incapable of playing in a LFR game, because... ya know... some of those other players around the world might be 'cooler' then your guys?
Nope. I have no idea how you inferred that nonsense, but sometimes when you make an egg you make an omelet instead so I'll let it pass ;)
Actually, I really want to run a LFR game at some point, but I can't be bothered registering and I don't have any time to do so. Otherwise I would.
That does seemingly conflict with the idea that the PCs are the only heroes in your campaigns, though I suspect you make a fairly clear differentiation between your campaign and things like LFR.
Precisely.
My own games are pretty much dictated by my own fascist whims these days. I don't spend many hours writing things to run something in a way I don't like.
LFR would be fun for me because:
1) It would remind me of when I ran games for conventions, gatherings etc
2) I love meeting new players (even if some of them drive me stupid)
3) I don't mind the concept of simply running X, Y, Z modules with everything already done for me anyway.
4) Be a different change of pace.
I play DnD as a social thing mostly and meeting new people is always fun.
Oh I dunno Rauric, what if you have a group of masochists who loved playing D&D to make them miserable with the horrible things that happen to their characters? :D
Though I'd agree that 3e was considerably more simulationist, which suits me far better than the alternative. To each their own though.
I think we have to be masochists to keep this lamebrain thread going.;) You agree it is pretty silly at this point right Stigger?
No one's convincing anyone of anything here.
:headexplo :hoppingma :D -On Topic (or replying to Iluvrien) Elaine might write another Realms book. I would prefer it to be in the Pre-Spellplague Realms, yet I want Paul to write in a Post Spellplague Realms. Go figure. I would also like for Ed to write in a Post Spellplague Realms. Now that would be something else.
18DELTA (CYRIC WILL SAVE THEE) ;)
As to the thread having no point, I'm not sure I'd go that far. Convincing anyone of anything isn't usually the reason I discuss things, its more to open my own mind and get new perspectives on things, and perhaps to present a new perspective to someone else. So long as a that's happening, a thread has a point to it... not completely sure this thread is pointless quite yet, but its edging in that direction. Though considering its about whether the 4e Realms sucks or not, it is still at least somewhat on topic.
But I like to look for the most optimistic side of things and give people (except WotC designers, can't do that anymore as much as I'd like) the benefit of the doubt, so keep that in mind when reading this.
Stiggs - Remember way back when RB got a little 'Hot' and said "You don't know the battles I have fought for FR!"?
How do we know that Hasbro didn't simply issue an ultimatum - make FR more profittable - and the designers are doing EVERYTHING they can think of to 'fix it'?
Unfortunately, I think some bad (rash?) decisions were made along the way, but all of them could be attributed to 'too many cooks spoiling the broth'. It almost seems like sheer desperation, the way the attacked and changed everything that wasn't nailed down - FR has become the 'everything but the kitchen sink' setting now, and although I think it is indeed 'hurting' because of it, it may have been done with the best of intentions.
Now, back to my regularly scheduled 'WotC-Hate'...
Oh well. Got to quit this thread and try to work on my New Years pledge of not adding to this stuff and only adding to positive, fun threads. ;)
And I do understand most poeple's point of view - I just feel they are placing blame on the wrong elements.
The bottom line is, if players can't enjoy a gaming session, for whatever perceieved reason, that is the fault of the DM.
Its the DM's job to entertain his players, and if he can't pull it off, then something is amiss. Thats like a bad actor blaming the script, or the backdrop, or the camera guy...
The DM is supposed to MAKE IT WORK, and if he can't do that in FR, then he should try running something else. Plenty of FR DMs never had any problem running the setting.
I hate Rootbeer - I mean I REALLY hate it. I don't go around to soda companies and petition them to make it more like cream Soda, because I know others enjoy that (buncha weirdos :P ). What I do is go out and find something I can enjoy, without ruining it for everyone else.
And therein lies the very basic problem between the "I love it!/I hate it! groups. You simply can't explain to someone who thought something that was perfect to begin with that it needed to be changed. They changed the product to appeal to a wider audience - they DID NOT change it to appeal to the people who already liked it.
Can you begrudge us a little bit of resentment over this?
If you don't like a thread still being open, don't look in it, and merely go on to the next one you do wish to read. Thank you.
If you feel strongly enough about needing it closed, contact your VCL. Only the VCL will make the decision to close it (unless it becomes a Code of Conduct issue,... but we don't want it to come to that, do we?)
Does the Realms as a Setting and Realmslore in itself have a value even when it is not being used to run a game?
-Iluvrien, don't forget why Ed Greenwood created the world in the first place. ;)
14. Counterpoint. Dragonborn still do, so your argument is ineffective. All it really does by reskinning is make people more comfortable with it lorewise. Mulholrand, Unther, etc, were interesting. Dragonborn are made of Tofu, and their race's physiognomy doesn't even make sense. All I want is a little LOGIC.
13. Even if people hated what there was there, there were still two other continents they could have used. Are those still there? Are they not? Your entire argument seems to be "What difference does it make?" Well, I have a big problem when the sky is a different color over one continent than it is over another. That's pretty absurd. I'm a sword and sorcery guy. I read Conan when I was six. I read Fritz Lieber and Michael Moorcock in my early teens. This stuff is AWFUL by comparison.
12. Even if there are as many acres in a square mile as you suggest, this still creates a situation that is militarily indefensible. Furthermore, Eltan wouldn't have allowed these refugees into Baldur's Gate in the first place. Refugees bring disease, plague, and infection. He would have poured boiling oil on them until they left. And if that fails, he could always have his wife summon Demogorgon and rampage over the fleeing peasants until they died. A small price to pay for the people who are actually CITIZENS. Go take a look at the picture of the unpurchased acres of cars in California and see how difficult it is to actually farm this much land. Now multiply that by a millionfold. Keep in mind also that there's no magic to actually help them do it, since the Spellplague is in full force and no one has developed the engine powered tractor. Millions would die.
11. It's already rare and listed as treasure in several 2e and 3e products. Good enough for me. Therefore, it's valuble. Now the year and date matter.
10. Well, here's my problem with it. They deprived people of the roleplaying of losing their homeland. And they just blew up another country. Ninety percent of this argument is based on the idea that you don't need cataclysms to get changes you want. James Joyce, William Faulkner, and other good writers didn't need them. Why should the WOTC staff? Appealing to the dumbest people out there by making big explosions and having people imagine CGI effects doesn't impress me. Good stories with epiphanies impress me.
9. It's right in the descriptions of the Chondalwood. Several chunks of the forest have literally defied gravity and are now floating around. Considering that the word "cite" is processed with a "c" and not an "s", Eight more to go.
8. If they hadn't done any of this stuff, I would have been impressed. But they DID. That's the point of the entire argument, and you just missed it. The Realms could have been so much more than it is, but then people like Logan Bonner, who can't even read 3.5 and understand it, are hired to promote 4.0, and therefore, since they don't understand where they come from, they have no idea where they're going.
7. See, that's your problem. Your failure to understand that Mystra going away is neither positive or negative. It's the WAY IN WHICH THAT STORY IS TOLD THAT HAS A BEEHIVE IN MY BONNET! The idiotic nature of the way in which they do things makes me feel like I'm being patronized for reading their sourcebooks. I am not mesmerized by stuff written for third graders. These books could have been beautiful. And I mean, really "brings tears to my eyes" beautiful. They could have been filled with excellent prose and skilled writing that deftly explained how all this came to pass. Instead, it felt like reading ticker tape written in arabic.
6. But they weren't in the driver's seat. And if you hate gods so much, you should hate the Spellplague too. The whole thing is not an answer to begin with. Two wrongs don't make a right. The problem is that in the 4e Realms, two wrights don't make an airplane either. It's neither FUN nor FUNNY.
5. Uh, perhaps you should read the novels about Zzass Tam's takeover then. They are awful. Really awful. Plus, I don't see D+D as solely about fighting monsters and beating people up. Taking the politics out of the game removes the players ability to negotiate, and now all you can do with Thay is beat up their minions and trash their undead lackeys. It sucks.
(It is not the designers or writers fault if you choose to ignore the obvious.)
If there's one thing I've learned in my years of reading and writing, it's that there cannot be "Zulkirs of Thay with diverse beliefs and goals" when "Everyone is Loyal to Zzass Tam and he runs an undead dictatorship."
Ummmm...this is what Calimshan was before, perhaps not the before you are commenting on but there is certainly support for it. I however agree with you on this point, so far the Calimshan change seems to be less than ideal. Of course a not so obvious theme in the new FR and in 4th edition D&D is easier access to plane travel, when taken in the context of this and the new cosmology it actually make sense, but couold need some fleshing out. As far as it being "The War Between Genies and Humans" well once again I think you are missing out on many levels what it is about. Remember the FRCG is essentially a primer, it was not meant to spell everything out for you like FR products of the past.
I don't want a PRIMER when I buy a sourcebook. I want to know where all the shops are, where every building is, get some good maps and find out who the important people are in these locations. Authenticity of characters and genre are VERY important to me. D+D is not about beer and pretzels. Roleplaying should be a more immersive hobby than that. I like to get the names right, and the storylines right, and the right villains for the right locations. I don't want statblocks. I can make those myself. When I woke up one morning and said "Holy Crap! Rifts has better sourcebooks than D+D!" I needed to take an aspirin just to get the feeling out of my brain. Characters MATTER. They live in a world. The world is not just a big oyster that the PC's feed on. That's the feeling that I get from the 4e Realms.
3.
Right and the Elves of the Wealdath had to cry to outsiders for help, and Amn never had any problems overseas or to the South, and Tethyr is one big happy kingdom. Really any commentary as to how survivable a "Monster Kingdom" is falls squarely under a blanket of plot device, or In My Realms. No one seemed to cry too much about it being created, what is the problem now?
2. The problem is that monsters suddenly went from "KOS" to "Things that could be negotiated with and a lasting peace forged with." The purpose of adventurers is to go and fight monsters and solve problems. I don't consider allowing a kingdom of monsters to exist when these creatures have been vermin for years to be logical or sane.
1. They DIDN'T do it with large brush strokes. Paul Kemp wrote three novels. I suggest you read them. They're well written, but they presume that nothing outside the nation of Sembia exists, which is a colossal flaw. If Daegloth Orndeir woke up one morning and was his usual crusading self, there would be a second Amaunator's Eternal Sun over Sembia and the Shades would be POWERLESS. And how in God's name would they find him? Just teleport him in, he takes ten minutes, and boom, there's a hundred and fifty mile radius of sunlight in all directions, and it's not an illusion. It's the SUN. You can't dispel it without taking the damage dealt by the sun and dying, unless your character level is something like 150.
-Iluvrien, don't forget why Ed Greenwood created the world in the first place. ;)
Oh, I haven't. But I did wonder if others considered that to be now irrelevant as Ed is no longer in control of the setting.... or they might not know or care. That was why I was soliciting opinions. To find out what they thought.
Wanted to ask, what did the events of the Lady Penitent series have on the drow? Is Ellistrayee still alive or did she die and Corelleon took up her cause? Are those drow that become what they were BEFORE they become drow a new race or anything like that?
Oh, I haven't. But I did wonder if others considered that to be now irrelevant as Ed is no longer in control of the setting.... or they might not know or care. That was why I was soliciting opinions. To find out what they thought.
-Just mentioning it...You very much often seem to label yourself (it comes out that way to me, anyway) a proverbial "second-class citizen" because of the fact that you primarily follow things for the stories, when this shouldn't be the case, as the stories are the reason the place exists in the first place, not anything else.
People who still love the 'old Realms' would be able to have their continuing stories, while the gamers who "just want to play" can have the new, post-1379 DR, lore-lite version for gaming.
I can even see myself supporting that, because they would have seperated the 'two worlds' and made everyone happy.
Unfortunely, they plan on writing new novels in the new Realms, which makes no sense to me, since the 'Gamers' who love 4eFR don't really give a rat's arse about novels, and the Novel-readers - those of us that follow the 'story' that is FR - don't really care about the 'new Realms'.
Plus, they'll just be re-creating the 'preceived problems' we had in 3e - Uber-characters making ours look scrawny by comparison.
They really need to re-think this. There is still hope, if they just keep the stories in the past, and gaming stuff in the future. I think at least 90% of the fanbase would accept this sort of compromise and we'd all be able to get along again.
I really can't be bothered with reading through this thread anymore, but I know your posts usually give me some good ideas.
You never fail to deliver. :D
Thank you! I'm always glad to be of service
Then again... isn't that Eberron?
Eberron's the last thing I'd think of - probably because of the vibe I get from that setting, I don't know. When I first read the OGB, I thought, 'A hot desert in the North, populated by RW bedines, suuure... Don't you think a cold, barren, lifeless, Mordor-like place with all the life leeched out of it would make more sense?' Once I thought of Mordor, I've never had a problem with the Anauroch again. Sure, it's not original - but at least it isn't ridiculous ;)
As to the thread having no point, I'm not sure I'd go that far. Convincing anyone of anything isn't usually the reason I discuss things, its more to open my own mind and get new perspectives on things, and perhaps to present a new perspective to someone else.
Signed, definitely.
Let's see once again a complete case of personal opinion...
Kudos to you! While I disagree with some of your points, I'm still impressed. I wouldn't even have dignified msatran's hostile tone and personal attacks with a response. (And I don't even know how the post looked before parts of it were removed...) And that's coming from someone who likes the Realms the way they were ;)
DB
-Just mentioning it...You very much often seem to label yourself (it comes out that way to me, anyway) a proverbial "second-class citizen" because of the fact that you primarily follow things for the stories, when this shouldn't be the case, as the stories are the reason the place exists in the first place, not anything else.
Well to be blunt, it is not myself that I see as a second class citizen but the stories themselves. In their clearly subordinate role any ideas, discussion and argument based solely upon them immediately invite the standard responses of:
1) "Well don't do it that way in Your Realms" (assumes a campaign)
2) "The game needs it to be that way... and since the game is the most important thing..." (no real coming back to this one)
3) Or (my favourite) "if you actually played the Realms you would see that..."
So when I consider the preface or preamble to some of my posts I work on the basis that since I am a novelite my views are not written from the same basis as the larger proportion of people who post in this place.
They really need to re-think this. There is still hope, if they just keep the stories in the past, and gaming stuff in the future. I think at least 90% of the fanbase would accept this sort of compromise and we'd all be able to get along again.
I have said before, I think just after the magnitude of the changes made themselves clear, that I could have accepted most of the alterations to the setting. And I could have, had they been handled in an organic and evolutionary fashion. Without the discontinuity of the jump. On that basis I agree with you MT (if I may call you that).
The way I think it could have been handled in this fashion would be to make the changes including the jump in-game and semi-freeze the progression of the setting but continue the novel line on the current time line. That allows for X years of cataclysm and then the required "smoothing" period to give the "uncluttered" gameplay that some have asked for. Then if you continue the novels in the same vein you cover all of the years before and through the spellplague and subsequent upheaval which may have made some pretty good books. Each book would bring the novel line a little closer to the game but in an evolutionary fashion and still maintaining the integrity of both. And when they meet? Well... hello 5th Ed?
But then that is just my own take on it.
Oh I dunno Rauric, what if you have a group of masochists who loved playing D&D to make them miserable with the horrible things that happen to their characters? :D
Though I'd agree that 3e was considerably more simulationist, which suits me far better than the alternative. To each their own though.
And that was what D&D was most of the time, it was a simulationist game, and tons of people enjoyed that. Hence, the massive splitting of the fanbase. Something no other game really had, at least not to the extent they took it. It's now an MMO on paper and many of us don't play D&D to play something we can already do on our PCs.
The pro-4E love to say continue playing the game your way, but the problem is there are a ton of people that enjoy the simulationist aspect of D&D and it's gone. There's nothing more to support OUR style of play anymore.
So the big question is, where do WE go now for our "simulationist D&D" products? Paizo?! I don't see Paizo doing splat books (though I'd be real happy if they started). Almost every other 3rd Party Publisher either quit the market, moved on to 4E, or just plain suck.
If someone can tell me where, I'd love to know because they're the ones that's going to get my money that could've continued going to WotC had they left D&D and FR alone where it was.
The way I think it could have been handled in this fashion would be to make the changes including the jump in-game and semi-freeze the progression of the setting but continue the novel line on the current time line. That allows for X years of cataclysm and then the required "smoothing" period to give the "uncluttered" gameplay that some have asked for. Then if you continue the novels in the same vein you cover all of the years before and through the spellplague and subsequent upheaval which may have made some pretty good books. Each book would bring the novel line a little closer to the game but in an evolutionary fashion and still maintaining the integrity of both. And when they meet? Well... hello 5th Ed?
Well, theoretically they have a LOT of time to back-fill, so they could wtite stories in that 'Lost Century' for years to come.
Even if they decide to stick with the 'one RSE a year' approach. :P
I could see some sort of plan -which is what I think your hinting at - that they could cover something like a decade every year or so, until the novels 'catch up' to the game, and then re-boot again into 5e.
That wouldn't be so bad. I don't really like the idea of things moving along at that 'break-neck' pace, but it would make more sense then what they are doing now (writing novels in the same era as the game).
Personally I would love to see them just stick with that - Lost Century for novels, 1379+ for game - forever, but I think your right, and they have probably already started work on 5e (or at least 4.5), so we can expect another 'bump' before we are even used to this one.
It's a generation of gamers who enjoy visuals. 4E won't go far and FR is already being starved to death. Eventually, it will begin to implode in on itself and they will make desperate attempts to keep it alive by pulling a 5th Edition (which is really 4.5e in disguise or something).
My only hope right now is that WotC finally either breaks away from Hasbro, sells the IP (to Paizo, for example) or stops raping the brand name and just let it die in the glory it once had.
3) Or (my favourite) "if you actually played the Realms you would see that..."
-Oh, that one is a good one. I've been "tossed" that one a few times, probably by the same guy being cited.
So when I consider the preface or preamble to some of my posts I work on the basis that since I am a novelite my views are not written from the same basis as the larger proportion of people who post in this place.
-The larger proportion of the regular contributors here are simply Realmslore enthusiasts, scholars, buffs, or whatever else you want to call them. Letting only reading D&D sourcebooks, or reading only fiction novels, or whatever, color the proverbial your views is, well, silly.
-As I said before, and I'll repeat myself, keep the discussion concerning the Forgotten Realms' merits and faults, not 4e D&D's merits and faults. If you want to discuss the later, go to the 4e General/3e General boards.
While true in theory...
Its hard to put into practice. 4eFR exists BECAUSE of the 4e rules.
I find it very hard (and I do try) to seperate the two, given that one is a symptom of the other.
But whatever - I hope those people who are playing in the 4e Realms (with the 4e rules) live long and happy lives, and continue to enjoy the game for years to come.
As for me - I've given up. I have no intention of running D&D anymore (after 30 years of doing so). I'm just going to sit around and wait for Diablo III to excite me with all it's glorious eye-candy (and index-finger excercise as I click like mad).
I'm really thinking about getting Wraith of the Lich-King to hold me over until then... but then you guys will never see me again.
Then again... some of you are probably hoping for just that. :D
18DELTA (Cyric Loves You Markus) :P
I wouldn't call 4e a MMO rip off though. Not enough emphasis on PvP for that to be the case.
15. Because there's a big difference between Aboleths underground, and a moving city filled with Aboleths that feels like it stepped out of Demon City Shinjuku or Legend of the Overfiend.
It is a difference in mood, where as the theme remains the same. Your references to anime are purely opinion. I for one see no real similarities beyond tentacles.
14. Counterpoint. Dragonborn still do, so your argument is ineffective. All it really does by reskinning is make people more comfortable with it lorewise. Mulholrand, Unther, etc, were interesting. Dragonborn are made of Tofu, and their race's physiognomy doesn't even make sense. All I want is a little LOGIC.
Dragonborn are actually balanced with other races. This is the direct opposite of the Half Dragon template, which was essentially a POWER-UP.
13. Even if people hated what there was there, there were still two other continents they could have used. Are those still there? Are they not? Your entire argument seems to be "What difference does it make?" Well, I have a big problem when the sky is a different color over one continent than it is over another. That's pretty absurd. I'm a sword and sorcery guy. I read Conan when I was six. I read Fritz Lieber and Michael Moorcock in my early teens. This stuff is AWFUL by comparison.
My argument is that it is a game, so what difference does it really make? It will change in everyone’s individual campaigns anyway. Don’t like the color of the sky change it. Also comparing Sword and Sorcery with the FR is a very big stretch, a vast majority of cannon supports a very different style of play. Lastly any comparison is purely your opinion, please don’t state it as fact.
12. Even if there are as many acres in a square mile as you suggest, this still creates a situation that is militarily indefensible. Furthermore, Eltan wouldn't have allowed these refugees into Baldur's Gate in the first place. Refugees bring disease, plague, and infection. He would have poured boiling oil on them until they left. And if that fails, he could always have his wife summon Demogorgon and rampage over the fleeing peasants until they died. A small price to pay for the people who are actually CITIZENS. Go take a look at the picture of the unpurchased acres of cars in California and see how difficult it is to actually farm this much land. Now multiply that by a millionfold. Keep in mind also that there's no magic to actually help them do it, since the Spellplague is in full force and no one has developed the engine powered tractor. Millions would die.
There are 640 acres per square mile is an indisputable fact. Look it up if you don’t want to believe me. As far as how defendable it is, well real world history supports the opposite of your argument. The rest of your response is personal opinion in the vein of “In My Realms”, I don’t think it really carries any weight for this particular point.
11. It's already rare and listed as treasure in several 2e and 3e products. Good enough for me. Therefore, it's valuble. Now the year and date matter.
That is an eminently LOGICAL reason.
10. Well, here's my problem with it. They deprived people of the roleplaying of losing their homeland. And they just blew up another country. Ninety percent of this argument is based on the idea that you don't need cataclysms to get changes you want. James Joyce, William Faulkner, and other good writers didn't need them. Why should the WOTC staff? Appealing to the dumbest people out there by making big explosions and having people imagine CGI effects doesn't impress me. Good stories with epiphanies impress me.
Is there anything preventing you from role playing this scenario? Comparing serious literature to what most often passes as a novel in the FR is disingenuous at best. The rest of your response to this point is once again purely opinion, and makes broad negative suggestions about people who might like the novels or what has happened to the novels. This forum is no place for such comments.
9. It's right in the descriptions of the Chondalwood. Several chunks of the forest have literally defied gravity and are now floating around. Considering that the word "cite" is processed with a "c" and not an "s", Eight more to go.
I strongly recommend you read the entry again. The Chondalwood, and the PLAGUEWROUGHT LAND are two distinct entities, regardless of what they may have been in earlier editions.
8. If they hadn't done any of this stuff, I would have been impressed. But they DID. That's the point of the entire argument, and you just missed it. The Realms could have been so much more than it is, but then people like Logan Bonner, who can't even read 3.5 and understand it, are hired to promote 4.0, and therefore, since they don't understand where they come from, they have no idea where they're going.
I apologize perhaps you did not understand my point. My point is that this is not an edition specific problem, which appears to be how you want to paint it.
7. See, that's your problem. Your failure to understand that Mystra going away is neither positive or negative. It's the WAY IN WHICH THAT STORY IS TOLD THAT HAS A BEEHIVE IN MY BONNET! The idiotic nature of the way in which they do things makes me feel like I'm being patronized for reading their sourcebooks. I am not mesmerized by stuff written for third graders. These books could have been beautiful. And I mean, really "brings tears to my eyes" beautiful. They could have been filled with excellent prose and skilled writing that deftly explained how all this came to pass. Instead, it felt like reading ticker tape written in arabic.
The reading level of sourcebooks has never been very high. The rest of your response is once again offensive and has negative connotations as regards my intelligence. As far as Mystra is concerned, I am happy to see her gone, and see it as a positive event because I don’t like God Soap Operas, unfortunately they seem to have started another one with Shar. The rest of your points are once again pure opinion, and don’t even address your own original comments.
6. But they weren't in the driver's seat. And if you hate gods so much, you should hate the Spellplague too. The whole thing is not an answer to begin with. Two wrongs don't make a right. The problem is that in the 4e Realms, two wrights don't make an airplane either. It's neither FUN nor FUNNY.
I don’t hate Gods so much as how they are used and depicted in the literature of the Realms, how this correlates to hating the Spellplague escapes me. I think it was too long, but for what it was it accomplished its goals. As to FUN well my players would rather not know they are having BAD WRONG FUN, so I wont be telling them that. Once again pure opinion that does not really address my comments.
5. Uh, perhaps you should read the novels about Zzass Tam's takeover then. They are awful. Really awful. Plus, I don't see D+D as solely about fighting monsters and beating people up. Taking the politics out of the game removes the players ability to negotiate, and now all you can do with Thay is beat up their minions and trash their undead lackeys. It sucks.
If these novels are so bad why would I want to read them?
If there's one thing I've learned in my years of reading and writing, it's that there cannot be "Zulkirs of Thay with diverse beliefs and goals" when "Everyone is Loyal to Zzass Tam and he runs an undead dictatorship."
The entirety of the actual entry on Thay suggests there is much more to it than your short synopsis insinuates.
I don't want a PRIMER when I buy a sourcebook. I want to know where all the shops are, where every building is, get some good maps and find out who the important people are in these locations. Authenticity of characters and genre are VERY important to me. D+D is not about beer and pretzels. Roleplaying should be a more immersive hobby than that. I like to get the names right, and the storylines right, and the right villains for the right locations. I don't want statblocks. I can make those myself. When I woke up one morning and said "Holy Crap! Rifts has better sourcebooks than D+D!" I needed to take an aspirin just to get the feeling out of my brain. Characters MATTER. They live in a world. The world is not just a big oyster that the PC's feed on. That's the feeling that I get from the 4e Realms.
Well I don’t want that degree of detail, because in my experience it runs counter to immersive play. I would suggest that many other people did not want this degree of detail either. As to statblocks, please read the FRCG, it does not have many. In fact I would say it has less than prior editions. Characters do matter, but really only to the point that your PC’s hear about them, interact with them, or deal with the consequences of NPC actions, beyond that they don’t really matter.
3.
Shrug.
2. The problem is that monsters suddenly went from "KOS" to "Things that could be negotiated with and a lasting peace forged with." The purpose of adventurers is to go and fight monsters and solve problems. I don't consider allowing a kingdom of monsters to exist when these creatures have been vermin for years to be logical or sane.
Well in many ways the jump to 4th edition has adopted many advances common in the gaming industry as a whole. Part of this was a natural maturation of what characters do, and how they interact with “MONSTERS”, not to mention suggesting that these monsters have greater aspirations than being the next chunk of experience for a “party of adventurers”. I am surprised this would be a problem since monsters having motivations beyond “Mongo kill. Mongo hungry.” Is more logical, and supports immersive play. Your response brings to mind GAUNTLET, more than D&D.
1. They DIDN'T do it with large brush strokes. Paul Kemp wrote three novels. I suggest you read them. They're well written, but they presume that nothing outside the nation of Sembia exists, which is a colossal flaw. If Daegloth Orndeir woke up one morning and was his usual crusading self, there would be a second Amaunator's Eternal Sun over Sembia and the Shades would be POWERLESS. And how in God's name would they find him? Just teleport him in, he takes ten minutes, and boom, there's a hundred and fifty mile radius of sunlight in all directions, and it's not an illusion. It's the SUN. You can't dispel it without taking the damage dealt by the sun and dying, unless your character level is something like 150.
Your response should once again be prefaced by an “IN MY REALMS”, however I have a question. What would Shar do when Amaunator starts messing with her pets? I do intend to read them mostly because everyone recommends them, however these events happened one hundred years ago not to mention it is described as taking several decades for the actual assimilation to be “completed”. The FRCG certainly suggests that Sembia is still a land of intrigue. I really don’t see the problem.
While true in theory...
Its hard to put into practice. 4eFR exists BECAUSE of the 4e rules.
I find it very hard (and I do try) to seperate the two, given that one is a symptom of the other.
But whatever - I hope those people who are playing in the 4e Realms (with the 4e rules) live long and happy lives, and continue to enjoy the game for years to come.
As for me - I've given up. I have no intention of running D&D anymore (after 30 years of doing so). I'm just going to sit around and wait for Diablo III to excite me with all it's glorious eye-candy (and index-finger excercise as I click like mad).
I'm really thinking about getting Wraith of the Lich-King to hold me over until then... but then you guys will never see me again.
Then again... some of you are probably hoping for just that. :D
My discussions about 4E are always synonymous about 4E FR and vice versa. Most don't realize that at first, but that can be seen in due time. The same goes for every other campaign setting they're going to slaughter in the future. I always found Eberron's cosmology to be interesting and was looking forward to an Eberron Guide to the Planes (as I did FR's, though I use the Great Wheel for FR to keep everything consistent), but alas even Eberron is getting the shaft by 4E despite being designed from the ground up to mesh with 4E.
Yes, I am also looking forward to D3. Once I get a better PC I can maybe get back into MMORPGs. Real ones, anyway, and not Pen&Paper ones. ;)
When 3rd Ed. came out I began fully entrenching myself into the world and lore of the Greyhawk via their campaign setting book. I read that thing cover to cover at least 20 times and then the FRCS came out and I was hesitant to get myself involved with that after investing so much time into Greyhawk. But I eventually broke down and bought FRCS and it has nary left my side since. For years I took it everywhere with me, re-reading things constantly. Even now I still read a little of it every day. The Faerunian map is still proudly framed and adorning the wall in my living room. Within the last year I have been researching more and more about the lore of Toril via places like Candlekeep as well as additional supplements published by WotC. I have been fully engulfed with the piecing together of Utter East lore on this board for past few days and I’m not even half way through that thread.
Now, I understand that I am somewhat of an anomaly and probably not the ‘fan’ that WotC is trying to reach. I do not play Dungeons & Dragons in any PnP form and haven’t since I was probably 16. I also have never read a single novel, but I am utterly fascinated with the history, geography and other assorted lore that goes with this setting and has been growing for decades. This new 4ed appears to strive to squash a lot of what has become canon up until its release. It feels like a slap in the face to all those who have contributed in making the Realms what they are today. I really don’t care at all about the rule changes brought on by 4e D&D, but the changes to FR are unnecessary, simplistic, and lack any real sort of intelligent creativity on the author’s parts.
There really is no need for me to get into specifics as everything has been brought up over and over in this thread as well as in others. Let’s just say that I agree with nearly all of the perceived faults cited by MarkusTay63 (my hero), Lord Karsus, and others. But what I would like to do is make a plea for unity amongst those of us who would like to continue the world as it was prior to the advent of 4e. If there are enough of us who like the Realms the way they were, there is no reason why we can’t keep it going. I really like the idea of the Star Trek-ish scenario I read somewhere. Treat it like a fork in the space-time continuum. Events such as the Spellplague, the disappearances of Mulhorand, Unther, and Maztica as well as the appearance of Dragonbornia could all very well have occurred within a slightly different, albeit parallel timeline. Check out Trek episodes like TNG's "Yesterday's Enterprise" and Voyager's "Year of Hell" for what I’m getting at.
In summation, it would be extremely sad if the Forgotten Realms as we know it dies off with 4e simply because some unqualified individuals who happen to land the job of a lifetime are simply allowed to destroy everything its fans, players, and past authors poured their blood, sweat, and tears into to make it a reality (in our minds and hearts anyway). I hope beyond hope that those of you with real passion for the Realms don’t allow it to die. I’ll be there arm in arm with those of you who do want to keep it alive, just ask.
Thanks for providing me with a forum to vent. Before I ebb back into the "Plane of Lurkers", I would like to say one last thing…
@MarkusTay63: Your maps on Deviantart are absolutely beautiful (just wish they were about 4x as big as they are). I hope you still plan on working on them. You are my hero…
Glad you joined the discussion, Ashe.
Thanks, Rin. I try not to get too involved since I don't want to get hypertension over a game, but sometimes I have to get my voice heard.
I've read a lot of the back and forth here, but I can't help siding with the Pre-Spellplague side on this because of many of the reasons given above. I feel that many that like the changes in the Realms are ones that had issues with the old Realms. Which I could never understand. If you have such issues with a published setting that you hate the characters and mythology, why don't you go to another setting (or create your own)?
I don't like the Ravenloft setting much, but you don't see me going to Ravenloft fan sites complaining that Strahd is an 'über-weenie' that 'ruins' it for me.
Let’s just say that I agree with nearly all of the perceived faults cited by MarkusTay63 (my hero), Lord Karsus, and others.
-What the hell, man? What the hell...
But what I would like to do is make a plea for unity amongst those of us who would like to continue the world as it was prior to the advent of 4e. If there are enough of us who like the Realms the way they were, there is no reason why we can’t keep it going. I really like the idea of the Star Trek-ish scenario I read somewhere. Treat it like a fork in the space-time continuum. Events such as the Spellplague, the disappearances of Mulhorand, Unther, and Maztica as well as the appearance of Dragonbornia could all very well have occurred within a slightly different, albeit parallel timeline.
-This is the established mission of ForgottenRealmsVault.com.
In summation, it would be extremely sad if the Forgotten Realms as we know it dies off with 4e simply because some unqualified individuals who happen to land the job of a lifetime are simply allowed to destroy everything its fans, players, and past authors poured their blood, sweat, and tears into to make it a reality (in our minds and hearts anyway).
With respect, may I ask that you spend at least as much energy in researching and getting to know the authors and game designers you just needlessly insulted, as well as the considerable back-story behind the creation of the 4E Realms, before passing judgment on it and them?
I can respect your statements as an expression of opinion, but by mixing in innuendo and slander you go too far.
Hurt feelings are no excuse, especially for someone as old as you and I.
I second your call for some form of unity (though the concept of parallel or divergent realities is not one I think we ought to generally accept as a community) and hope it happens.
I too would hate to see the Realms die off. Only by accepting all that has happened and moving forward as a group can we achieve a future for the Realms.
-The larger proportion of the regular contributors here are simply Realmslore enthusiasts, scholars, buffs, or whatever else you want to call them.
That's been the chief problem with these Forums for some time, IMO.
At least in the sense that these forums were never properly structured or moderated to cater to the tastes of such a small sub-section of a an otherwise large community,
I think the majority of people who come through (whether ghosting in and out or writing a response here and there) are gamers and people that have read a novel or two, are interested in the lore and motivated to play D&D in the Realms, but aren’t interested in lore for the sake of lore.
Back when these forums first got started I think we had a better mix, but we also had an extremely loud and obnoxious group of lore freaks that wouldn’t hesitate to blast anyone at WotC that they found fault with.
Perhaps that’s colored my perception of lore-first people. ;)
I've been "tossed" that one a few times, probably by the same guy being cited.
Not sure what made you think going there was a good idea. But since we're headed that way...
What else should we do with ignorant upstarts? Do we let their poor attitude turn new people away from the forums? Bah.
Now amusingly, I didn't consider D&D simulationist until 3e... which stopped in 4e. Good while it lasted, and I'm running out of shelf space anyway, so its probably a good thing for me in that respect.
I wouldn't call 4e a MMO rip off though. Not enough emphasis on PvP for that to be the case.
That's true, there's no chapter on "Duel meh! Dules MEH! DOOOL MEH!" ;)
But 4E is far more balanced, and that's a nod to MMOs at least.
But 4E is far more balanced, and that's a nod to MMOs at least.
It's a nod to good consistent design. Not just MMOs.
In summation, it would be extremely sad if the Forgotten Realms as we know it dies off with 4e simply because some unqualified individuals who happen to land the job of a lifetime are simply allowed to destroy everything its fans, players, and past authors poured their blood, sweat, and tears into to make it a reality (in our minds and hearts anyway).
How much do you actually know about many of the 4E FR designers to call them "unqualified?". What out of curiosity are your qualifications? What did you write for DnD previously?
It's now an MMO on paper and many of us don't play D&D to play something we can already do on our PCs.
I've been playing 4E since it came out, I hate MMOs and yet I don't find 4E very much like an MMO at all. It is indeed less simulationist and more gamist, but this is returning the game more towards 2E and 1E than making it more "MMO" like. Of course, I'd like to point out that this exactly same complaint of yours was also made about 3E "It's more like a video game" etc etc.
Nothing much has changed I see.
and the success of Diablo 3 stealing precious NEW D&D customers who finally realize 4E is no different than an MMO
I have to admit, I got a real laugh out of this statement.
I am happily intending to play Diablo III though, looks like it might be pretty solid and more like Diablo than the sequel. So it's looking good to me.
It's a generation of gamers who enjoy visuals. 4E won't go far
We'll see, but at the moment 4E is doing pretty well both sales wise and player counts wise. We'll see if that drops, but at the moment it has a pretty good life ahead of it.
Minding, I've seen the exact same argument as this before.
Ah yes, back when 3rd edition came out. Funny how nothing changes.
We'll see, but at the moment 4E is doing pretty well both sales wise and player counts wise. We'll see if that drops, but at the moment it has a pretty good life ahead of it.
Are there readily available numbers that show this? I only know anecdotal evidence, and none of my players or any of their other campaigns have even considered upgrading to 4e. It has really seemed to be a total non-event in the gaming world.
Hello Owenay and welcome. With respect, may I ask that you spend at least as much energy in researching and getting to know the authors and game designers you just needlessly insulted, as well as the considerable back-story behind the creation of the 4E Realms, before passing judgment on it and them?
I can respect your statements as an expression of opinion, but by mixing in innuendo and slander you go too far.
Hurt feelings are no excuse, especially for someone as old as you and I.
How does one begin to respond to this sort of nonsense? How much do you actually know about many of the 4E FR designers to call them "unqualified?". What out of curiosity are your qualifications? What did you write for DnD previously?
I apologize. I did not choose my words wisely. I did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings or call into question the literary or creative qualifications of any of the designers of 4th Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (which I own and have read). I have nothing but respect for those individuals who have undoubtedly worked very hard to compose this work and bring it to fruition. I WISH I was in their shoes.
What I was trying to say was... it kinda feels to me like there may have been a few people involved at high levels of this project who may not have had a deep enough respect for the history of The Realms and its continuity that myself (and apparently others) would have expected. This very notion alone would then inherently make said individual unqualified to be a part of the team tasked with guiding the campaign into its next chapter. ***IN MY OPINION***
Continuity is really at the heart of my problem with this latest incarnation of The Realms and IN MY OPINION also at the core of all die-hard fans' love for and dedication to any specific Fantasy/SciFi "universe" whether it be Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, Star Trek or Star Wars, Dune or Middle Earth... The real fans, the ones that make these world's prosperity and longevity possible, DEMAND a very high level of continuity as well as detail (IMO). When you start messing around with things that have become canon or start making drastic alterations to the very fabric of the world you run the risk of alienating a lot of fans and in turn tarnishing the integrity of the setting.
My parents are lifelong Tolkein fanatics. Every time I discuss the films with them it quickly degrades into a debate over the continuum and the omissions. My mother absolutely cannot get passed the fact that there was no Tom Bombadil in the movies. She would only accept them in her heart if they went BY THE BOOK and it didn't matter if they had to be 20-30 hours long to achieve that. For the first time I think I may fully understand exactly where she is coming from.
Well anyhoo... Way to make a first impression huh? I think I may have just experienced a lurker's greatest fear. No hard feelings? Good.
Long live Dungeons & Dragons and long live the Forgottten Realms!
-What the hell, man? What the hell...
It's the cartography that put him over;)
-This is the established mission of ForgottenRealmsVault.com.
Cool, I'll check it out...
What I was trying to say was... it kinda feels to me like there may have been a few people involved at high levels of this project who may not have had a deep enough respect for the history of The Realms and its continuity that myself (and apparently others) would have expected. This very notion alone would then inherently make said individual unqualified to be a part of the team tasked with guiding the campaign into its next chapter. ***IN MY OPINION***
That is a far more rational position by far. Personally, I don't think that killing a bunch of NPCs whom a lot of people hated (minding, who a lot of people also liked) is a "lack of respect" and more a decision to change the overall dynamics (which again, doesn't have to be actually liked by everyone). I wish they had gone further and not done a few things, like bought back Netheril and just kill Cyric once and for all (Has anyone ever liked Cyric?).
When you start messing around with things that have become canon or start making drastic alterations to the very fabric of the world you run the risk of alienating a lot of fans and in turn tarnishing the integrity of the setting.
The converse is also true, you can do that and completely reinvigorate what was a stagnating world becoming overly metaplot filled and dying. Examples of this being successful are not hard to find, Vampire: The Requiem for example.
Actually, I've had this exact argument before and now I know what Razzs arguments before give me such a "I've heard this before" argument. I've heard the exactly same arguments as the above and also what Razz said about Vampire and the New World of Darkness. Even what I intensely dislike, the new Mage: The Awakening has done considerably well since they rebooted the system and fundamentally changed the mechanics. '
So it can certainly pay off. Of course, I can only say that because NWoD has been out a few years now and I can see what the result of that has been. It's still a few years off saying anything about what FR has done.
And that was what D&D was most of the time, it was a simulationist game, and tons of people enjoyed that. Hence, the massive splitting of the fanbase. Something no other game really had, at least not to the extent they took it. It's now an MMO on paper and many of us don't play D&D to play something we can already do on our PCs.
The pro-4E love to say continue playing the game your way, but the problem is there are a ton of people that enjoy the simulationist aspect of D&D and it's gone. There's nothing more to support OUR style of play anymore.
So the big question is, where do WE go now for our "simulationist D&D" products? Paizo?! I don't see Paizo doing splat books (though I'd be real happy if they started). Almost every other 3rd Party Publisher either quit the market, moved on to 4E, or just plain suck.
If someone can tell me where, I'd love to know because they're the ones that's going to get my money that could've continued going to WotC had they left D&D and FR alone where it was.
There's a publisher coming out with something that uses the acronym L&L (I can't remember what it stands for atm) that aims to continue publishing 3e material. There's at least a new PHB coming out, but anything else will probably depend on how successful it is. Otherwise, there are much more simulationist games around which do medieval fantasy. I'd suggest GURPS, Mongoose Runequest, or Hero System as some of the best known and easiest to obtain, or Rolemaster as something slightly closer to D&D in rules style.
Of course, I entirely disagree with your characterisation of D&D as previously a simulationist game. It suggests you didn't play any earlier edition than 3e, and managed to miss the fundamentally non-simulationist aspects of it then.
Now amusingly, I didn't consider D&D simulationist until 3e... which stopped in 4e. Good while it lasted, and I'm running out of shelf space anyway, so its probably a good thing for me in that respect.
I wouldn't call 4e a MMO rip off though. Not enough emphasis on PvP for that to be the case.
D&D even in 3rd edition never did "simulationist" well. It just couldn't due to the basic rules structure. Although I should qualify this by saying that if you're using Simulationist in the strict GNS Theory sense then it was possible to run a game using the D&D rules as "world physics", and the consequences were a lot of fun even if they didn't match how FR and most other published settings behaved.
That's true, there's no chapter on "Duel meh! Dules MEH! DOOOL MEH!" ;)
But 4E is far more balanced, and that's a nod to MMOs at least.
Or to 1st edition. There were far less "I WIN!" buttons available to the spellcasters back then, and they were much less able to bypass the saving throws of non-casters. With less classes and stricter multi-classing, it was much more balanced than 2nd edition with it's array of kits and 3rd edition with it's array of superheroes.
I apologize. I did not choose my words wisely. I did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings or call into question the literary or creative qualifications of any of the designers of 4th Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (which I own and have read). I have nothing but respect for those individuals who have undoubtedly worked very hard to compose this work and bring it to fruition. I WISH I was in their shoes.
What I was trying to say was... it kinda feels to me like there may have been a few people involved at high levels of this project who may not have had a deep enough respect for the history of The Realms and its continuity that myself (and apparently others) would have expected. This very notion alone would then inherently make said individual unqualified to be a part of the team tasked with guiding the campaign into its next chapter. ***IN MY OPINION***
Continuity is really at the heart of my problem with this latest incarnation of The Realms and IN MY OPINION also at the core of all die-hard fans' love for and dedication to any specific Fantasy/SciFi "universe" whether it be Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, Star Trek or Star Wars, Dune or Middle Earth... The real fans, the ones that make these world's prosperity and longevity possible, DEMAND a very high level of continuity as well as detail (IMO). When you start messing around with things that have become canon or start making drastic alterations to the very fabric of the world you run the risk of alienating a lot of fans and in turn tarnishing the integrity of the setting.
My parents are lifelong Tolkein fanatics. Every time I discuss the films with them it quickly degrades into a debate over the continuum and the omissions. My mother absolutely cannot get passed the fact that there was no Tom Bombadil in the movies. She would only accept them in her heart if they went BY THE BOOK and it didn't matter if they had to be 20-30 hours long to achieve that. For the first time I think I may fully understand exactly where she is coming from.
Well anyhoo... Way to make a first impression huh? I think I may have just experienced a lurker's greatest fear. No hard feelings? Good.
Long live Dungeons & Dragons and long live the Forgottten Realms!
It's the cartography that put him over;)
Cool, I'll check it out...
Great point and I whole heartedly agree, if you do not like what WotC are doing to the Realms then don’t go by what they want and especially don’t buy any new material. The best thing about a fantasy game is that it’s fantasy so definitely do what you want which you can do in any case. In fact there’s close to twenty years of material to go by and the Realms has most diverse settings out of all of the TSR/WotWC/WotC/Hasbro game settings. So if you don’t like Cyric don’t play him. If you don’t like dragon born leave them out. Create the world you want to play then and most of all have fun. One last thing, opinions are opinions so I hope no one gets bent out of shape because yours doesn’t mesh with someone else’s this isn’t directed at you but I’ve seen some abuse to you here that was uncalled for so to those inconsiderate people just let it go and again have fun.
D&D even in 3rd edition never did "simulationist" well. It just couldn't due to the basic rules structure. Although I should qualify this by saying that if you're using Simulationist in the strict GNS Theory sense then it was possible to run a game using the D&D rules as "world physics", and the consequences were a lot of fun even if they didn't match how FR and most other published settings behaved.
It was a pretty casual sense of the phrase actually... I don't think any ruleset could truly be called simulationist and still be useable for gaming.
@ Owenay...
Just to warn you, that real fan comment is probably going to drive Misc nuts and send him into a fitful rant about elitist grognards (:P @ Misc)... ;)
Well, given that the new ruleset tends to affect the setting in rather significant ways, as in lots of lore about spells and the conventions of religion in the Realms, among other things, alot of it goes pretty much out the window in terms of relevance beyond historical reference, I'd say it was pretty well topical. So we have churches of LG deities that can now have evil clerics with the deity in question having no real recourse to getting the evil schmuck out, or even slowing him down in terms of spellcasting ability supposedly stemming from the deity, presuming that's still true, beyond sending a vision to another cleric and hoping they can do something about it... that doesn't exactly reconcile well with the way the deities were portrayed in sourcebooks previously. The new ruleset pretty directly affects the previous fluff really when you think about it.
You can't start as an evil cleric of a Lawful Good deity, according to the PHB (p.62). Lawful Good or Unaligned only. I haven't seen anything in the FR books to contradict that, or have I missed something? That you can turn evil afterwards is slightly different, but that's what the Tormish Inquisition is for.
Great point and I whole heartedly agree, if you do not like what WotC are doing to the Realms then don’t go by what they want and especially don’t buy any new material.
The strength of this poster's 'boycotting' power is somewhat ameliorated by the fact that there is very, very little to boycott, wouldn't you say?
-- George Krashos
You can't start as an evil cleric of a Lawful Good deity, according to the PHB (p.62). Lawful Good or Unaligned only. I haven't seen anything in the FR books to contradict that, or have I missed something? That you can turn evil afterwards is slightly different, but that's what the Tormish Inquisition is for.
Nope, was thinking of being good to start, and then turning to evil later, didn't make that clear I see. As to the existance of a Tormish Inquisition... wasn't aware, glad for that small mercy, and I find the idea sickening under that name. I'm hoping that isn't the actual name...
Do I want to know or should I leave that subject alone and hide now?
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks
I’ve removed content from this thread because off topic is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://forums.gleemax.com/community_coc.php
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks
No one expects the Tormish Inquisition!
:fight!:
Tormish Inquisition???
Do I want to know or should I leave that subject alone and hide now?
It's never actually specified as a formal group existing within the church, but there are things that make it not too implausible. The highest rank among the Tormtar is Priest Inquisitor, and they are specified as the teachers and internal disciplinarians of the church. Then you add something that happened after the Time of Troubles, when Torm was trying to get his church to make amends for it's previous persecution of other churches. They have the three duties, but there's something else. Here's the quote from Faiths and Avatars, where the second bit is most significant: “Tormish provide training for, give sanctuary to, and lend support (money, gear, mounts, armour and weaponry) to guardians, orders of paladins and loyal knights, and loyal courtiers across Faerun – and send forth agents to ferret out corruption in such groups and in all courts and organisations, particularly those who set themselves up as righteous or having a sort of superiority or moral authority.”
In other words, the church of Torm has decided it has the right to send out it's followers to ferret out corruption among any group it supports, and it's inquisitors are responsible for discipline within the church. It's not a formal Order of the Inquisition - even the Catholic Church gives it's version a rather more innocuous name - but I'd suggest they've certainly got inquisitors and a formal organisation might not seem like a bad idea to some senior leaders.
Anyway, not nice to get me all worked up over something I already knew. Here you had me wondering if this was something new to 4e with that whole Elturgad thing. :P
You can't start as an evil cleric of a Lawful Good deity, according to the PHB (p.62). Lawful Good or Unaligned only. I haven't seen anything in the FR books to contradict that, or have I missed something? That you can turn evil afterwards is slightly different, but that's what the Tormish Inquisition is for.
I'm pretty sure Stigger was refering to the ideas about clerics put forth in the core rules--specifically, the concept that once a priest is invested with the power of their deity, the deity cannot (or won't?) take that power away from the cleric even if the cleric later turns out to be a not-so-great priest.
Indeed... it does seem to neuter the gods a bit... or perhaps that should be the DM instead.
This is true even of Paladins in 4E now, who do not automatically lose their powers or abilities on defiance of their God.
It's a very unusual decision and at the moment, I am tolerating it. Minding, it's not like it has become a particular issue yet and I'm undecided how I am going to deal with it (if it does). Probably have them hunted down by inquisitors or similar. Everyone loves a good burning at the stake.
Though I'm more fond of lions in a pit than burnings at the stake. :P
I'm pretty sure Stigger was refering to the ideas about clerics put forth in the core rules--specifically, the concept that once a priest is invested with the power of their deity, the deity cannot (or won't?) take that power away from the cleric even if the cleric later turns out to be a not-so-great priest.
That is the STUPIDEST thing in the entire world. It really is. When I run, I have a simple policy for clerics. Worship your god, or ELSE.
If you do not make the proper obesiences and show how devout you are, I will have your deity make you into a first level frog, especially if you're powerful enough.
The important thing to remember about all priests’ magic is that the deity or his divine servants, in granting spells in response to prayers, can do what they like. If Rhaundor the Devout Brother has served the god particularly well, his flame strike may well smite tenfold...or, on the other hand, may turn into a rain of healing flowers. Wizards who correctly manage their castings are fairly sure (wild magic, dead magic, and waiting magical fields such as mythals and wards are the only ‘usual surprises’) of the resulting magical effect; priests (if the DM desires) may never be so sure.
If a pc was not following his gods faith in the slightest I would tell the player to reroll or have his pc reatrain into another class. That may still take his pc out of the campaign for a few months but that is always better than having the pc scrapped. So making divine pcs follow their gods rules or go powerless is still possible, at least in my games. If a player does not wish to be a follower of a god but still likes healers there is always the warlord, bard, and artificer.
I know I said I would quit this thread but at least I am not being confrontational with anyone. Quitting threads cold turkey is worse than quitting the "rock".
I can respect your statements as an expression of opinion, but by mixing in innuendo and slander you go too far.
It's not slander if it's the truth. How much of the original designers from D&D and the Realms beginning are there left now? Very few. Of those very few, they've given in to the corporate schemes and the ambitions of the fresh-blooded suits walking in after their interviews. Join the crowd or be eaten, that's how it is. Some of those designers moved right onto Paizo's doorstep to help produce Pathfinder, the 3.75 of D&D. If that doesn't mean anything, I don't know what does.
Those same fresh-bloods are pulling up marketing statistics and laying out fresh new projects in the meeting rooms and are saying,"This is hip, this is cool, this is what the new generations want. We must let go of the old fans and make new ones and this is how it has to be done if we want to make uber-money."
You see, I don't believe any of 4th Edition is necessary for WotC to stay in business. Just owning D&D and making products for D&D is always enough to keep it afloat. As Monte Cook stated, 3rd Edition was at its peak right when 4E was announced. With fresh material like Tome of Magic and Tome of Battle, as long as they keep that up (and further supplemented what they released) it can stay afloat for decades more. But then the capitalist aspect of it just has to swoop in and kill something, as usual.
The fact a company wants to earn some profit is fine. The fact they want to earn as much as WoW is ludicrous. Of course, any sensible business owner would take a huge gamble at some point to reap in a great reward if it pulls through. They've stated 4E is a huge gamble. I don't even know if it's paying off, and I highly doubt they'd admit to it starting to fail if it was (and do their best to cover it up after the hype they gave it). I don't even know if it's successful, what with the skewed and biased statistics flying all over the place.
That's where me and WotC differ. D&D was always made out to be a game for gamers, for the love of the game and for the fun of gaming. No one had a problem with it, not even the designers themselves who continued to work there for over a decade or more. When it became a "game to make money and only money", that's when it stopped being D&D and just another franchise like Monopoly or Magic the Gathering.
The Edition Wars are because of that fact. It's not about which edition is the best, it's about whether we want the game to be a sell out or not. We all know what happens when you mess with classics. I mean look at what happened with the reaction of the people when they did Star Wars re-digitalized!
Some things should just be left alone and I believe the reason for the outbursts from both sides of the fence on this issue of D&D 4E is because of this fact. It was fine where it was at and we don't understand why pro-4E just couldn't see that.
I wonder what 5E will look like. It's really scary to think about. At least 1e, 2e, and 3e shared A LOT in common. But with 4e sharing almost nothing in common with its predecessors we have people split amongst 1e, 2e, 3e, 3.5e, 4e...5e will really destroy the game entirely. But I don't see 4E lasting. It's already been over 6 months and we have over 128 paragon paths, 500 something feats, 2000 magic items, and like 2000+ monsters (every monster is UNIQUE now despite the variations, unfortunately). By the end of this year the glut will triple. And there's more to come (4 more power sources? Not to mention supplements for those sources).
And, again, when I mention 4E or mention Forgotten Realms, it's synonymous, so I am staying on topic...sort of.
Of course, I entirely disagree with your characterisation of D&D as previously a simulationist game. It suggests you didn't play any earlier edition than 3e, and managed to miss the fundamentally non-simulationist aspects of it then.
D&D even in 3rd edition never did "simulationist" well. It just couldn't due to the basic rules structure. Although I should qualify this by saying that if you're using Simulationist in the strict GNS Theory sense then it was possible to run a game using the D&D rules as "world physics", and the consequences were a lot of fun even if they didn't match how FR and most other published settings behaved.
I don't want a completely simulationist game, just enough of it. I like rules on Crafting and Profession and running a business and so on. I don't want exact measurements, I just want it to be a chunky part of the game. Because when people play D&D, they attempt all sorts of things beyond killing and lewting. And I don't see 4E providing ANY of that. It's been said a million times by the designers in different ways as 4E was in design and even today, it was always
"This is not what ADVENTURERS do, so we didn't provide this or that."
or
"WE believe this is how D&D SHOULD be played."
That kind of attitude is what makes a game suffer in the long run.
And I have started D&D back in the beginning of the second printing of 2nd Edition, and I found a ton of simulationist aspects in it, as much (maybe even a bit more) than 3E did. We may be talking about two different things when we say simulationist maybe?
And, in turn, they did the SAME thing with the Forgotten Realms.
"WE believe the Forgotten Realms SHOULD be like this."
My question is, what will happen when a new set of employees step in, others step out, and a whole new set of ideas comes along? This cycle is just going to rinse, cycle, repeat until D&D is just a garbled mess.
It's not slander if it's the truth.
And since it wasn't even close to true (Owenay's was a valid, subjective opinion), there's no use arguing that it was otherwise.
As to the rest of your post: Razz, now you're mixing a core of reasoning with innuendo and story.
The game designers and business people are individuals you don't know personally. Also, your words indicate that you have not read anything of the published history behind 4E.
The edition wars are not WotC's fault, either.
I believe there's some truth underlying your statements, just as I believe we haven't been given the whole picture yet (but lordy lordy I can't wait until the current crop of pink-slipped people's contracted NDAs expire so we can pick their brains). Also, I think WotC screwed up a little in its assumptions about the best parts of 3E, and I think they messed up royally with the 4E Realms.
What I don't see is how any of this supports the suppositions people are making about WotC and its staff.
And since it wasn't even close to true (Owenay's was a valid, subjective opinion), there's no use arguing that it was otherwise.
As to the rest of your post: Razz, now you're mixing a core of reasoning with innuendo and story.
The game designers and business people are individuals you don't know personally. Also, your words indicate that you have not read anything of the published history behind 4E.
The edition wars are not WotC's fault, either.
I believe there's some truth underlying your statements, just as I believe we haven't been given the whole picture yet (but lordy lordy I can't wait until the current crop of pink-slipped people's contracted NDAs expire so we can pick their brains). Also, I think WotC screwed up a little in its assumptions about the best parts of 3E, and I think they messed up royally with the 4E Realms.
What I don't see is how any of this supports the suppositions people are making about WotC and its staff.
I'm not saying it's WotC's fault. it could be Hasbro's. It could be Scott Rouse's fault. It could be Elminster's fault. But the fact is, I don't think it's the customers' fault. Even if it is their fault, which demographic? The ones who have stuck with D&D for years or the new ones now who stick with it for a few months and move on? I assume the latter, there's a ton more of those, unfortunately.
And look what happened when NDAs did expire and the juicy news we heard from both Sean K. Reynolds and Monte Cook about what was going on at WotC. Just from what those two have been saying has left me very wary of EVERYONE at WotC. One can't blame me, or anyone else, for coming to that conclusion.
Even an insider like Greenwood, who is under NDA, believes what they have done to the Realms is very bad and he barely trying to salvage it. From his perspective, that is, and I trust his a whole lot more than some new fresh corporate suit.
This one might tick you off at first reading. If so, I ask you to pause after. Then, re-read it again, but be careful to assign no loud, disdainful or scornful tone to my words as they sound off in your mind.
I assume the latter, there's a ton more of those, unfortunately.
I’ll note your assumption and treat it as just that. ;)
And look what happened when NDAs did expire and the juicy news we heard from both Sean K. Reynolds and Monte Cook about what was going on at WotC. Just from what those two have been saying has left me very wary of EVERYONE at WotC. One can't blame me, or anyone else, for coming to that conclusion.
I read very closely what Cook and Reynolds had to say for some time after they left WotC (one on his own, the other let go). But a couple years or so after they left, WotC appeared in my opinion to have righted itself and set sail on a better path; a more middle of the road approach that included far more lore information in Realms products and that put less stress on rules information.
So no, I don’t blame you for being wary of WotC. I am too! I just think it’s presumptive sans real facts to just sort of go off on them. Casting them as a posse of evil, wicked specters is great for the imagination and hysterical group think, but it’s no substitute for real, substantive thinking.
Even an insider like Greenwood, who is under NDA, believes what they have done to the Realms is very bad and he barely trying to salvage it.
Barely trying? Are you so sure? I doubt his love for the Realms (the sincere and true kind, not the three-limbed and lacking sort that so many of the posers on these forums profess) has died so easily.
And with regard to what Ed says/thinks: So what?
Ed thinks something so it’s true? Ed thinks something so you (we) all should think the same thing?
I respect Ed for the advice he’s given me on how to run my Realms game better, his stated opinion that there is no one “right way” to run the Realms (that’s a Realmslorist’s petty assumption), that each person should take the Realms and do what they wish with it, and for his unwavering desire that we all treat each other with respect and patience, even when we disagree. (That last a lesson you’ll note I’ve not altogether mastered.)
But I’ll never substitute the man’s thinking for my own. I agree WotC has fouled up the Realms a bit, but should Ed ever unequivocally state the Realms are not worth saving and supporting, I’d be the first to tell him to his face that he’s wrong.
And lastly, though I oft disagree with you, I sure like it that you’re opinionated and you think before you type.
...his stated opinion that there is no one “right way” to run the Realms (that’s a Realmslorist’s petty assumption)...
Realmslore enthusiasts, who study, review, and discuss canon in great detail, simply do not hold this assumption as a group. I have never known a single Realmslore enthusiast who makes this assumption; to the contrary, Realmslore enthusiasts are usually the first to point out that canon cannot be followed exactly in actual games and no one should expect such.
The bottom line is that a player who insists on adherence to a single element of lore does not make that player a Realmslore enthusiast, it is simply a fact of that player's behavior which does not exist solely due to the available lore of the Realms. What you apparently believe and continue to tell people about Realmslorists is simply incorrect. There, the problem is with the player, not the lore, and perhaps even more at point: the problem is with the DM who allows such players to disrupt their group. I guarantee you, if a player does this with an element of Realmslore, they do it with a multitude of games.
There really is no need for me to get into specifics as everything has been brought up over and over in this thread as well as in others. Let’s just say that I agree with nearly all of the perceived faults cited by MarkusTay63 (my hero)
Thanks for providing me with a forum to vent. Before I ebb back into the "Plane of Lurkers", I would like to say one last thing…
@MarkusTay63: Your maps on Deviantart are absolutely beautiful (just wish they were about 4x as big as they are). I hope you still plan on working on them. You are my hero…
If I'm your hero, you need to get out more. :P
Just kidding... thanks for the kind words. :embarrass
I have plans to do them in a much higher resolution all during this year, and even do a couple of 4e ones... just to show folks what they should look like. ;)
But what I would like to do is make a plea for unity amongst those of us who would like to continue the world as it was prior to the advent of 4e. If there are enough of us who like the Realms the way they were, there is no reason why we can’t keep it going. I really like the idea of the Star Trek-ish scenario I read somewhere. Treat it like a fork in the space-time continuum. Events such as the Spellplague, the disappearances of Mulhorand, Unther, and Maztica as well as the appearance of Dragonbornia could all very well have occurred within a slightly different, albeit parallel timeline. Check out Trek episodes like TNG's "Yesterday's Enterprise" and Voyager's "Year of Hell" for what I’m getting at.
Another Trek fan?
And I thought I was all alone here in this cesspool of SW love.
Yesterday's Enterprise: One of my all-time favorite episodes - I think I cried at the end the first time I saw it. I'd like to see Star Wars shlock do that (they just have some guy making out with his sister).
Parallels was also a great one - with all those different Enterprises floating in space, and they had to destroy the one that 'lost it'.
The way the often brought back former characters for those 'alternate reality' episodes was just such a great feature - it added an amazing touch of realism.
Just for bringing up Star Trek, you can be my hero too. :D
On that basis I agree with you MT (if I may call you that).
You can call me whatever the hell you want - don't matter to me.
Except "your Little Honey-Bunny".
You have to buy me dinner first to call me that.
I have plans to do them in a much higher resolution all during this year, and even do a couple of 4e ones... just to show folks what they should look like. ;)
Markus, I'm curious if you've ever been approached to do a map-book of FR for WotC? I'm serious, actually, they're definitely some of the best maps I've seen.
Yesterday's Enterprise: One of my all-time favorite episodes - I think I cried at the end the first time I saw it.
Count my vote in for this being one of my top 5 Trek favorites too. Extremely well done. *and now, back to topic* ;)
Markus, I'm curious if you've ever been approached to do a map-book of FR for WotC? I'm serious, actually, they're definitely some of the best maps I've seen.
LOL - I get the feeling that some designers have a dartboard with my face on it hanging up at WotC.
At least, I hope they do. :D
As much as I would love having my name on an offical D&D product, I don't ever see that happening - too may bridges burned.
However, on another site I learned that I can legally sell my maps and they can't do a darned thing about it. Basically the Map itself is free - you just have to pay for the printing and shipping. The 'price' isn't for the IP-specific material contained therein - thats considered 'Free' - it's for the labor involved, both creating them and having them made-up for distribution.
Its a wonderfully evil work-around to the IP laws.
Not that I plan on doing that, but it is nice to know - I do so love loopholes.
And I don't think its often a case of being against them, more a case of overstating an observation most of the time. Someone saying something is a problem, and then someone else coming around and explaining why it shouldn't be, and here's how isn't disrespect, its attempting to get someone to look at things from another perspective and to identify the real problem. The simple fact of the matter, which I'm almost certain you'll agree with, is that a DM doesn't have to include anything they don't want to. If a player brings up its omission or alteration, is that a problem with the player, or with the setting? Given rule 0, I'm going to have to go with the player being the problem there... which is ultimately what most of this seems to boil down to.
As to novels and stories leaving a bad taste for certain NPCs with some people, or creating expectations for players... so what? If you want to disregard the novels entirely, or are changing things significantly because something doesn't work for you, that's usually a matter of personal taste or style, and not some objective problem that exists. Trying to blame the setting because you don't like some elements, especially when you're free, and encouraged even, to change anything you don't like, is just a bizarre notion to me. If its that much of a problem for you, why even use it, much less bother with the setting?
Sure, there are some continuity issues here and there, but unless you're a lorejunkie, I don't really see how it matters... you use the version you like and you're done.
What I don't get is how this is not a people problem, rather than a setting problem? Is someone from WotC holding a crossbow to your head, forcing you to use only official stuff without change, shooting you everytime you don't use some iconic NPC at least once an hour? I think a lot of this stuff could be solved with the DM setting down some conventions for the campaign, sort of a this is the way I'm running this, if you've got a problem with it, either deal with it or find a new game.
In other words, NY city has a huge rat problem. You can say it isn't the city's fault - its the rats fault for being there. But if the city creates an environment condusive to their proliferation, then you must blame the city and not the rats.
I'm not agreeing with 'the other side' here, I am just pointing out to you that a setting can be at least partially responsible for setting up a situation that creates 'problem players', even if it is apparent to us that it is the players themselves that are disrupting the games.
I think I may have just confused myself... I need sleep...
But if a setting engenders the creation of more of those types of 'problem players' then most other similar settings, then would it be possible to say it may indeed be the fault of the setting, at least partially?
In other words, NY city has a huge rat problem. You can say it isn't the city's fault - its the rats fault for being there. But if the city creates an environment condusive to their proliferation, then you must blame the city and not the rats.
I'm not agreeing with 'the other side' here, I am just pointing out to you that a setting can be at least partially responsible for setting up a situation that creates 'problem players', even if it is apparent to us that it is the players themselves that are disrupting the games
I think you've perfectly understood the argument I made in the other thread, as opposed to getting yourself "confused" at all.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks
I'd say that the Realms depth and volume of lore did attract some bad actors, that should be patently obvious, but they'd probably be bad actors regardless of what setting they choose to fixate on, so I can't quite bring myself to say its the Realms in particular. As I said before, too much blaming the victim for my liking.
I don't want a completely simulationist game, just enough of it. I like rules on Crafting and Profession and running a business and so on. I don't want exact measurements, I just want it to be a chunky part of the game. Because when people play D&D, they attempt all sorts of things beyond killing and lewting. And I don't see 4E providing ANY of that. It's been said a million times by the designers in different ways as 4E was in design and even today, it was always
"This is not what ADVENTURERS do, so we didn't provide this or that."
or
"WE believe this is how D&D SHOULD be played."
That kind of attitude is what makes a game suffer in the long run.
And I have started D&D back in the beginning of the second printing of 2nd Edition, and I found a ton of simulationist aspects in it, as much (maybe even a bit more) than 3E did. We may be talking about two different things when we say simulationist maybe?
And, in turn, they did the SAME thing with the Forgotten Realms.
"WE believe the Forgotten Realms SHOULD be like this."
My question is, what will happen when a new set of employees step in, others step out, and a whole new set of ideas comes along? This cycle is just going to rinse, cycle, repeat until D&D is just a garbled mess.
I don't think that having the ability to write Craft (papermaking) or Profession (Lawyer) on the character sheet is any indication of things being simulationist. Remember that what the Profession skill did by the rules was give a very minor income to someone willing to take a week off to perform it. Use of the skill in other situations is entirely left to the DMs' discretion, and that is not a sign that a rule system is simulationist. And if all you do is roll a dice to see what you get, that's not particularly simulationist either. A truly simulationist approach would involve more steps in the process, with at least some way to calculate expenses compared to income.
I started D&D before 1st edition AD&D came out, and it's never seemed like a simulationist game to me. Mind, I've played some games that really do try to be simulationist to a degree far more than D&D ever tried, so I might be setting the standard for what I consider simulationist higher than you. However, the definition for simulationist that I'm using is that the rules of the game are effectively the "physics" by which the world/setting you adventure in work. I don't think I've ever seen a published setting do this for D&D, certainly not FR.
I'll make one other statement on simulationism. Computers can do it better. They can keep track of more variables more rapidly than any human DM. Where tabletop games shine is in story-telling and in allowing DMs to adjudicate things that aren't in the rules, rather than keeping track of lots of different variables. If tabletop RPGs are to have a future that's something designers MUST keep in mind.
With regard to the argument that what's been published in 4E is what the designers think the game should be like, you're entirely correct. Yet this is something that's been true with every edition before. I remember some of the early arguments which broke out on what D&D was supposed to be like, and frankly the answer that was reached in every case was "whatever Gary Gygax wants". That's why there were no barbarians at the start of 1st edition, why clerics couldn't cast damage spells and magic users couldn't heal, why non-humans had level limits and there were limits to what classes they could take.
You raise an interesting point there Markus, though I'd tend to disagree... that an obsessive personality is drawn to something isn't the fault of whatever it is they're drawn to. To my mind, that's kind of like blaming someone for being stalked by a wacko. And no, I'm not calling lorejunkies in general wackos, though I'm sure we can all think of a few who probably fell into that category...
I'd say that the Realms depth and volume of lore did attract some bad actors, that should be patently obvious, but they'd probably be bad actors regardless of what setting they choose to fixate on, so I can't quite bring myself to say its the Realms in particular. As I said before, too much blaming the victim for my liking.
Well, thats why I felt very uncomfortable making that post.
I believe you are a bit younger then I, so I don't know if you'll remember in the 70's many criminals - usually 'inner city' types - would get off scott-free in court, because they were 'victims of society'. That crap doesn't wash anymore, because like me, everyone got sick of hearing it time and again.
Yes, society does create 'bad people', but it also creates very good people under the same exact circumstances, so obviously there is a choice involved there.
However, looking beyond the obvious 'placing blame' aspect of that argument, one can easily see that an 'Inner City' environment will more likely churn-out more criminal-types then an upper-class neighborhood.
Its not the neighborhood's fault, per se, but it does facilitate what comes from it.
The same must be true of settings, or most anything else. It seems to me, applying this 'formula' works with just about anything that has 'esoteric knowledge' involved. By that I mean gobs and gobs of 'stuff' that most people don't know (or do, but just don't give a rat's ass).
Now, I can apply this to your 'Stalker' counter-argument. Isn't it true that a 'star' that is always in the tabloids (think Brittney Spears, or any other publicity-muppet) is far more likey to attract stalkers then someone who keeps to themselves?
They create a certain situation 'of interest' around themselves that winds-up attracting certain unsavory personalities.
Now, we can take any 'Geek Genre' from Giant Robots to Star Wars to D&D and say the same thing - the more 'Inner Knowledge' one must have to be part of the group, the more one feels those feelings of entitlement -that ebil word the designers enjoyed bandying about a year ago. For some reason, Ren-faire hangers-on come to mind right now (they scare me).
If DMforPowergamers or Aegiri had players that had boatloads of FR knowledge under their belt, it just stands to reason that they were far more likely to develop those feelings of entitlement - it comes with the territory.
Now, I'm not saying other settings didn't have those kinds of players (in my own case, it was Dragonlance), but the more 'lore' that something has surrounding it, the more 'entitled' people who know it begin to feel.
So while every setting had its 'lore monkeys' and 'rules-lawyers', FR was far more likely to engender those extremists who felt they new the 'right' way to play, because of their 'vast storehouse of knowledge'.
A setting with very little lore is highly unlikely to create such problematic players. Think about it - how can ANYONE say the DM "isn't doing it right" in a 4e FR game?
Now, I'm not agreeing with the fact that they changed our really great setting to stop those obnoxious types from occurring - I think discreet assasinations would have proved effective. (:P - just kidding, before I get banned).
So I understand fully the reasoning behind the changes, for the people who are currently enjoying those changes... but not the reasons behind the designers making them in the first place.
Which brings me to a question that I asked everyone ealier. What, then, is the purpose of campaign settings anymore? In 4th Edition, that is. What they want to achieve in 4th Edition and the concept of a published campaign setting are like vinegar and water now.
Why is it Drow and Genasi are "campaign specific" but then they provide material to use them in any game? Why not just release Drow and Genasi and let each individual DM tailor the races to his game as he sees fit? What's the point of it being "FR Only" or "Eberron only"? The same goes with Swordmage, etc.
I might not be explaining it right, there a lot of things that make total sense if only I can get the right words to put together to convey what I mean exactly.
I guess the only reason campaign settings are needed in 4th Edition, that I can think of, is for one of their main focuses for the game: the "time constrained" (or, in half the cases, the "lazy") DM who has no time to put together their own setting so they need something quick and sloppy enough to put together themselves however they see fit instead of it being laid out for them and requiring "too much reading". They admitted before they want 4E to be a game you pick up, read a little bit, and just start...shamefully, like a video game or...*braces for the flames* like an elitist board game. I am personally starting to see no difference between the way you can play D&D Clue and D&D 4E.
I guess the only reason campaign settings are needed in 4th Edition, that I can think of, is for one of their main focuses for the game: the "time constrained" (or, in half the cases, the "lazy") DM who has no time to put together their own setting so they need something quick and sloppy enough to put together themselves however they see fit instead of it being laid out for them and requiring "too much reading".
Given that 4E has less detail and needs more work to develop NPCs, regions and such, that would be precisely the opposite.
They admitted before they want 4E to be a game you pick up, read a little bit, and just start...shamefully, like a video game or...*braces for the flames* like an elitist board game. I am personally starting to see no difference between the way you can play D&D Clue and D&D 4E.
Not everyone can make maps. Not everyone can layout an entire city or town. Not everyone feels like figuring out the political situation between half a dozen countries.
However, EVERY DM that I have ever met that was worth playing with likes to create his own material.
What a lore-lite setting does is give the DM a 'barebones' backdrop to place his stories in. Now, I like this concept, and it's why I played using Greyhawk for years - it was EXACTLY that kind of setting.
What a lore-heavy setting does is give a DM a much more robust world to play with, but at the cost of him having to be very careful about what he places where. It can still be easily done (I know, my FR looks VERY different then the canon one), but it requires a lot more effort on the DM's part to 'get everything right'.
As I said in another thread, some DMs don't want to spend ½ their lives learning a setting so they can set-up weekly adventures. Some DMs just want to run adventures and have fun (it is a game, after all). That doesn't make them lazy - they still need to spend time preparing for a session, but they don't need to work-out all the infinite details ahead of time like a 'simulationsit' DM would (like how much TP is left on the roll...)
I can totally undestand where they are coming from - you don't know how many times I've been asked to run a game spur-of-the-moment, and as much as I wanted to, I said "sorry, I have nothing prepared".
You know, years ago when I ran GH, I used to do it all the time off-the-cuff. Sometimes I miss that.
Anyhow, I can (finally) understand why so many people are enjoying FR now, who couldn't do so before. What I can't wrap my mind around (still) is why they didn't just run GH, which was already exactly what they were looking for, or why WotC didn't do more to push GH.
It just seems very counter-productive to me to 'deconstruct' something to make it 'less', when they already had something ready-made that filled that niche, or they could have spent just as much effort creating an entirely new setting. (which 4e FR is, but they 'over-wrote' ours to accomplish it).
Anyhow, I can (finally) understand why so many people are enjoying FR now, who couldn't do so before. What I can't wrap my mind around (still) is why they didn't just run GH, which was already exactly what they were looking for, or why WotC didn't do more to push GH.
I can only speak for myself so tak ethis for what it is. The FR always appealed to me, even in its heavy lore days, it was just progressively less appealing. It was progressively less appealing, because the gap between My FR, and cannon FR grew by leaps and bounds with each RSE. Over time I stopped running games in the FR and dropped D&D in general for other games. I peaked at it all in 3rd edition realized it was not for me, and continued playing other games. I still read the FR sourcebooks, and often considered doing short adventure arcs in it, but that was about it. 4th edition D&D came out, and at first I listened to reviews and the furor on the forums. Well after a moment of reflection I realized the commentary associated with it was too furious (which meant to me they may have actually chnaged things enough for me to like D&D again), and went out and bought the books. I was very pleased with the product, and felt about D&D like I did when I first started playing it 29 years ago. Then I heard they were coming out with a FR source book. Based on the design philosophy for 4e core I had high hopes that it would also reach back to the past and make me feel the way I once felt about the Old Grey Box. It did not disappoint. As you can see I had a long love affair with the FR, but it got stale. It was no longer a place I wanted to run games in (I love improvising off of player backgrounds, character interactions, and actions), and had turned into a place I only liked to read about. The FRCG revitalized the FR for me. It begs to be played in, not gawked at, not argued over.
Why could I not have moved over to Greyhawk? Well Greyhawk has always struck me as the kind of homebrew I could put together on a weekend afternoon while consuming mass quantities of alcohol. It has never seemed cohesive and the general degree of cheese flowing throughout the land never appealed to me. If anyone out there likes Greyhawk, I apologize for the harsh critique. To put it mildly why would I want to play in Greyhawk, no I moved on to other games (Earthdawn, WoD, d6 Star Wars, Shadowrun, and a host of others) and homebrew settings when the D&D bug bit. Asking why I could not like GH instead is like asking someone to stop playing with legos and use duplo blocks or generic building blocks instead.
I think you might feel that a desire for less lore in one respect, and more lore in another are mutually exclusive. I like less lore for the time period that I am running games in, but love having a mountain of lore to fall back on for history. That is the strength of 4th edition FR. The setting has the last twenty years of material to use as history, and adventure seeds. This aspect has made me extremely happy as I love history, and love having a complete carte blanche on the setting (not that I did not before except now I don't have to edit out large chunks of the printed material). I am going to enjoy it for now, because in about ten years it will be buried under a new avalanche of novel generated garbage and gems.
But, and I think this is obvious from my previous posts, I disagree with how they decided to make the changes.
Lastly, I just had to chuckle that you fell 'out of love' with the Realms because of the lore, yet are (like I am) a fan of Earthdawn and Shadowrun, which are probably even worse offenders of lore-heaviness and truly *has* uber-NPCs (Dunkelzahn, Harlequinn, etc.). This isn't a dig against you, just an observation since I have similar discrepancies in my tastes.
Lastly, I just had to chuckle that you fell 'out of love' with the Realms because of the lore, yet are (like I am) a fan of Earthdawn and Shadowrun, which are probably even worse offenders of lore-heaviness and truly *has* uber-NPCs (Dunkelzahn, Harlequinn, etc.). This isn't a dig against you, just an observation since I have similar discrepancies in my tastes.
Funny I never really considered Earthdawn or Shadowrun lore heavy, and I still don't. Both have well developed npc's and a degree of metaplot, but I never felt like someone was beating me over the head with it
Of course it could be that overall I avoided the novels entirely, and only ever really dealt with the in game fiction. I think the novels are the principal contributor of bloat, for the realms as a gaming setting, something I easily avoided with Shadowrun and Earthdawn, of course it could have something to do with the flavor also. FR is very obvious in the influences it borrows from, ED and SR are not. Also the level of maturity from a game design point of view are different, because they were designed in effectively different eras. Lastly ED and SR don't take themselves nearly as seriously especially SR as evidenced by the fairly frequent violent removal of an "Uber NPC".I was always facinated with the idea of placing 'fantasy races' in another genre.
I had some small interest in Shadowrun, but alas, I couldn't find anyone else who shared my interest, so I never bothered with the setting.
I was always facinated with the idea of placing 'fantasy races' in another genre.
Shadowrun was very awesome. I started with 1st edition (or something like that, can't quite recall) and stopped playing. When I picked up the next edition again (2nd or 3rd, can't remember now it was so long ago) they changed the way damage and such worked. Basically they made combat incredibly lethal and people who could previously pop out without much risk, would be turned into sad red splats instantly.
Took some getting used to that did.
My Elven Street Samurai vs. a human Street Samurai. We both shot the hell out of each other and my character lost all of his lifestyle money (I think they measured it per month?) and then some in the hospital getting his wired reflexes and fleshy parts fixed up.
But it was still fun as hell.
Well, thats why I felt very uncomfortable making that post.
I believe you are a bit younger then I, so I don't know if you'll remember in the 70's many criminals - usually 'inner city' types - would get off scott-free in court, because they were 'victims of society'. That crap doesn't wash anymore, because like me, everyone got sick of hearing it time and again.
Nope, I remember that quite well actually. As to the idea of victims of society, I don't think it disappeared because everyone got sick of it, I think it disappeared because it was at its core just as racist as the Jim Crow laws ever were, but in a softer, warmer, and fuzzier package. But that's neither here nor there. It essentially said those poor minorities in the inner cities couldn't help themselves, poor little savages, we must take pity upon them because they just don't know any better. Same White Man's Burden sociological viewpoint, same condescending BS, different way of going about it.
But that's neither here nor there. As that relates to the setting, I see something similar going on with it. I don't think anyone at this point is going to seriously contest that the novels of the Realms were responsible for most of these problems. Unless they change their scope and focus with 4e's books, you're just going to see the same thing happen in a few years, except this time, we won't have the luxury of sourcebooks to at least give us the condensed version of things if we don't feel like keeping up with it. If anything, I see this approach making it worse in a lot of ways, since you'll almost have to at least read the back covers of the novels if you don't want some player to toss something out of left field at you mid-game, because you got it wrong from the novel... and preferably the novels themselves to really know what they're talking about.
The previous problem still exists, its just easier to be caught unaware by those obnoxious players.
Unless they change their scope and focus with 4e's books, you're just going to see the same thing happen in a few years, except this time, we won't have the luxury of sourcebooks to at least give us the condensed version of things if we don't feel like keeping up with it.
Interesting Point.
It almost seems as if they want to force people to buy the novels, because thats the only way you can find out anything about the setting anymore.
But your typical 4e FR DM doesn't want any novels... so the whole thing is a bit confusing.
@Markus: I hate HATE SW so you aren't alone.
@Stigg: keep Torm's name of mouth (and fingers) :P
well I would think that the LFR campaign would be our most likely source of updates
Are they planning to releasing and gazetteer of those updates outside the RPGA?
well I would think that the LFR campaign would be our most likely source of updates
WotC has not yet said how changes to the setting via the LFR campaigns are going to be announced, and that's assuming they even *are* going to be announced at all.
Thats news to me.
I thought everything we needed to know about FR was covered on that last page of the GHotR.
Don't tell me something exists beyond that?
Interesting Point.
It almost seems as if they want to force people to buy the novels, because thats the only way you can find out anything about the setting anymore.
But your typical 4e FR DM doesn't want any novels... so the whole thing is a it confusing.
I tend to see it as a case of what the right hand giveth, the left hand taketh away...
@Markus: I hate HATE SW so you aren't alone.
I don't hate it. In fact, I enjoyed the movies for what they were (lots of pulpy shinyness).
I just don't get why some folks seem to think it's deep... when its not.
Obviously those people have never read any of Niven's Universe, or any of Asimov, or even Frank Herbert's Dune (the first three - it went down hill from there). GOOD Sci-Fi isn't about the blasters and light-swords - its about deep, socio-political issues underlying the stories.
The Sci-Fi should be just a backdrop, it's just a vehicle to tell a very human story. When the focus becomes the tech, then thats when you start crossing over into pulp.
AS an aside, I am judging the entire setting by the movies, and my great dislike for George Lucas (who seems to have this bizarre idea that he actually invented a lot of the ideas he uses). For all I know some of the novels may be good... but the same could be said for FR. ;)
More like "What the right hand giveth, the left hand don't Wanteth". :P
I don't hate it. In fact, I enjoyed the movies for what they were (lots of pulpy shinyness).
I just don't get why some folks seem to think it's deep... when its not.
Obviously those people have ever read any of Niven's Universe, or any of Asimov, or even Frank Herbert's Dune (the first three - it went down hill from there). GOOD Sci-Fi isn't about the blasters and light-swords - its about deep, socio-political issues underlying the stories.
The Sci-Fi should be just a backdrop, it's just a vehicle to tell a very human story. When the focus becomes the tech, then thats when you start crossing over into pulp.
AS an aside, I am judging the entire setting by the movies, and my great dislike for George Lucas (who seems to have this bizarre idea that he actually invented a lot of the ideas he uses). For all I know some of the novels may be good... but the same could be said for FR. ;)
Right. Most Characters (in the movies) are one dimentional
.That being said though, from what i hear here and there (looking at you LK) I might enjoy some of the novels, If I ever bother :P
Right. Most Characters (in the movies) are one dimentional
That being said though, from what i hear here and there (looking at you LK) I might enjoy some of the novels, If I ever bother :P
Now if only they (movie makers) and the others (novel writers) would grasp the concept that while plot driven characters may be intriguing, it is the character driven plots that I for one (as a movie goer and novel reader) find really compelling.
...I do wish more publishers would be interested in that kind of thing. Especially WotC! (hint)
Obviously those people have never read any of Niven's Universe, or any of Asimov, or even Frank Herbert's Dune (the first three - it went down hill from there). GOOD Sci-Fi isn't about the blasters and light-swords - its about deep, socio-political issues underlying the stories.
Haven't been through Niven or Asimov yet, Dune was odd. Parts of it I liked and much of it Herbert spent a great deal of time trying to portray something that might be deep and just left me wanting to watch that galaxy conquered and rebuilt by someone else.
If I read that today, I may have seen the end coming though, but at the time I was suprised (where he hid the 'certain something').
Although the ending, now that I think about it, was 'stolen' by the Riddick movie - another case of someone accidently becoming Emperor of the Universe when they were shooting for a whole lot less.
Anyhow, II and III were good, but after he became a big Worm, it just got kinda weird and lost me.
I'm a firm believer in no series of characters going more then three books - after that its just like the author is milking it for all its worth.
There are a couple of 'Five-book' series I loved, but when they start getting up around eight or nine (and I can think of two off the top of my head) its like "just get the story over with already". Its not even enjoyable anymore - you just keeping reading it hoping it will end someday.
Either the Chronicles of Amber or the World of Teirs are both excellent series, and one is losely inspired by the other, IIRC. Both are very cool ways to look at the D&D 'multiverse'.
Those are what I would call Sci-Fi that reads like fantasy (like Robert Silverberg's stuff, or jack Vance). Another great one in that vein are the Book of the New Sun series - very dark and grim neo-fantasy future, if you like that srort of thing - the main character is a torturer by trade.
And for pure Sci-Fi turned into Fantasy, the Well World books are a helluva romp.
I need to start reading non-FR novels again... I almost forgot what great things are out there. I'm glad this thread got me thinking about all of them again.
Why is it Drow and Genasi are "campaign specific" but then they provide material to use them in any game? Why not just release Drow and Genasi and let each individual DM tailor the races to his game as he sees fit? What's the point of it being "FR Only" or "Eberron only"? The same goes with Swordmage, etc.
I agree, especially since an old graybeard like myself can and might just stand up and point out to WotC's spokespeople that Drow were available as PC's back in Greyhawk (Unearthed Arcana, 1st ed. AD&D) and that Genasi originated in the Planescape setting (2nd ed AD&D), so why should they be Realms or Eberron specific?
Thread closed.
Anyway, if you like Helm, Erik Scott de Bie has got a new novel coming out in September, called Shadowbane, that promises some Helm goodness.
I thought this thread was supposed to be closed!?
This thread cannot be caged! It cannot be controlled!
Youre Welcome
I'm suprised Chris Perkins or somebody didnt come in here and say
Youre Welcome
Chris Perkins can only be summoned by saying his name three times.
Somebody’s thread necromancy powers are very strong.
EDIT: The fact that this thread is alive again sucks. Can we get an ORC in here to kill it, forever?