Darkon became a realm of the undead, and the main city was changed to "Necropolis".
Anyway, now Thay is an undead realm. Szass Tam decided to try his own "apotheosis", which failed, and now he's going to attempt it again.
Aside from an excuse to have reams of undead, could wotc have yet another "mystery of D&D" planned? Like, what is this ritual powerful liches keep trying? Who created it, and who's succeeded with it? Is there an artifact out there with uncompleted parts of the ritual, one part in Faerun, another in the domain of dread? Did Vecna also accomplish what Azalin did, and what Szass Tam failed to do; and if so, where is the nation-of-the-dead in Greyhawk?
-I don't think, personally, that there was intent, however. I mean, a bleak wasteland ruled by some kind of Undead king is a common trope in fantasy. I do think that, by transforming Thay into an area that more closely mirrors this trope, an interesting locale was done away with.
I can see it as a natural progression for the country, though. Considering the most powerful person was an epic lich, with a nations' worth of resources and no national adventurers typically there to challenge them, that is.
I know what you mean by a trope, definitely. I think in this case it's interesting that we get to *see* the nation of the dead pop up from a nation we as gamers are already familiar with. FR has a chance to do that while other settings generally don't last that long.
I'm fairly certain wotc is thinking about where the settings are going to go. Consider: in the last paizo issue of Dragon Magazine, the "unsolved mysteries of D&D" were discussed. One of them was about Abeir-Toril, and what happened to Abeir; in fact, Ed Greenwood said something to the effect of designers stopped mentioning Abeir for reasons that "will soon become apparent...".
Well, they came out with Abeir not too long afterward; about a year. Now it's part of the setting.
The point being that some harkening back to days of yore is being done. I thoroughly expect a number of those interesting unsolved mysteries to come out published eventually.
What's the word on re-vamping (sorry for the pun) Ravenloft? Castle Spulzeer was FR. Heh, maybe 5e they'll have another time of troubles?
The point being that some harkening back to days of yore is being done. I thoroughly expect a number of those interesting unsolved mysteries to come out published eventually.
-A bunch of these type of things were "revealed" during the 3e era. The killers of Aravae Irithyl, for instance (the heir to Coronal Eltargrim of Myth Drannor). In 2e, who killed her was a mystery. Magic covered up the crime, and there were no witnesses. In 3e, her killers were revealed (agents of House Starym).
What's the word on re-vamping (sorry for the pun) Ravenloft? Castle Spulzeer was FR. Heh, maybe 5e they'll have another time of troubles?
-Ravenloft received an update in the 3e era: Return to Castle Ravenloft. I'm not sure about this one, but I believe that a third party actually had the license to Ravenloft, and published a few 3e-compatible books. Yeah, see HERE.
The wotc revamp of Castle Ravenloft... well, I looked through it and it isn't as good a buy as the original module.
the best modules IMO are the old Ravenloft ones where entire buildings were done in 3-d. Same with some of the Dragonlance ones around that time. While I get that the new format is better for miniatures and play, the old style was great to give a sense of the building. Like the Kartakan Inn for Feast of Goblyns; I could re-use the building for other stuff.
mapping out encounters is clever, but it's not... tactile appreciation for the whole dungeon/castle/tavern.
The original Ravenloft module had enough of the castle mapped that it was useful for the players later. heck, I could run a vampire castle game night in 4e using that map. It's like those Tod Gamble cartography collections: just neat maps.
Mysteries: yeah. that stuff's kinda cool. gives me something I can pass on to other players I teach, like the culture of gaming. What created the Mournland? Is Ed Greenwood Elminster? Who's sexier: Sune or Lloth in drow form? (Trick question, obviously, it's Storm Silverhand played by Lucy Lawless, but I digres...)
What created the Mournland?
-WotC.
Is Ed Greenwood Elminster?
-No.
Who's sexier: Sune or Lloth in drow form? (Trick question, obviously, it's Storm Silverhand played by Lucy Lawless, but I digres...)
-Sune, obviously.
Sword and Sorcery (owned by white wolf). Yep. already have acouple of their books. The didn't put nearly enough coolness into it, though, so I don't see that it did that well.
The wotc revamp of Castle Ravenloft... well, I looked through it and it isn't as good a buy as the original module.
As I recall, it's been said that a version of RAVENLOFT will be getting some attention in a future DDi release.
Is Ed Greenwood Elminster?
To expand a little more on LK's answer above...
This is straight from Ed:-
"No, of course not. WotC authors are often asked to provide “sell copy” for book jackets, though it NEVER reaches print un-tinkered-with, but in the old TSR days, writers were rarely invited to do so. I had never seen that blurb until a copy of the book was brought to me for signing at a convention, and I certainly never wrote a word of it. No, I have never said Elminster is my “alter ego.” TSR has, many times; a practice that began in GenCon pre-registration blurb booklets, describing the seminars I did in costume, acting the part of Elminster - - ALSO a practice TSR asked me to begin and carry on. When they, many years later, asked me to leave the costume at home, I happily did so. Those robes are hot. :}
To reiterate: I have never, ever said that Elminster is my alter ego or wish fulfillment character, or thought that way for one minute. I will never use any Realms characters in that manner, because doing so would ruin the whole fun of creating the world and its characters, and watching what happens and how they evolve. Just as all of the gamers who have played various PC adventurers in my Realms sessions over the years are playing roles, not themselves."
What created the Mournland?
LoL...an over-reaching Dragonmarked house. Caanith, if I recall.
And it's been mentioned in previous EBERRON lore that it hasn't been entirely established who or what caused the destruction of Cyre and the creation of the Mournland.
The whole point of ravenloft is that it is a self made prison. This prison "feeds" the dark powers that make the demi-plane of dread. They "feed" on all the negative emotions and are trying to get a greater foothold in the other planes.
All the darklords are really the best tragic villans that WOTC has to offer. To ignore them is like DC revamping but forgetting about Batmans Villans.
I know the Death Knight guy from Kyrnn got relased but I think that was a mistake.
The book about Azalin is called Lord of the Necropolis.
I think you mean Dragonmarked House, MM. ;)
LOL....no more late night posting for me!
Anyway, my money is 100% on Caanith and a little too much interference from certain to-be-named-later Dragons and their agents.
I thought that they were trying to copy WoW with Tam being their version of Arthas. Heh, never thought about the Ravenloft connection (then again, last I saw Azalin was still alive).
No - the Eminence of Araunt is Arthas and his Deathknights. If we are going to accuse WotC of stealing ideas, at least get it right. ;)
Arthaus... Araunt... Hmmmmm
Azalin did the ritual to escape Ravenloft, but failed. In later modules he reapered in Darkon, but not has a Dark Lord.
Vecna tried a similar ritual for years as well, to achieve godhood, and was even eventually successful (went into Ravenloft a demigod, and came out a god - isn't that special?) :D
The Magic Ritual cost him an arm and a leg, though... or was it a hand and an eye?
;) :P
No - the Eminence of Araunt is Arthas and his Deathknights. If we are going to accuse WotC of stealing ideas, at least get it right. ;)
My bad. I don't follow 4th edition realms lore, so I have no idea who he is.
The Magic Ritual cost him an arm and a leg, though... or was iit a hand and an eye?
And by some accounts, a head.
Those of you who've been around for a while may remember a game called Ravenloft. One of that game's realms was called Darkon, ruled by a powerful Lich named Azalin, who decided to elevate himself to demi-lichdom with a powerful ritual. His Apotheosis went through, and over the course of three modules the PCs got to survive it, got raised as undead, and found their way out of the city. Azalin vanished for a while, being replaced by the grim reaper, and I don't remember if he came back; still, his rivalry with Strahd was one of the most interesting parts of the setting, and he is a Ravenloft celebrity. We're never told whether he succeeded or failed (though if you have a link, please post?)
Darkon became a realm of the undead, and the main city was changed to "Necropolis".
Yes we are, do your research. The whole plotline is described in the Death Unchained, Death Ascendant and Requiem the Grim Harvest modules.
Yes Azalin's plan was to ascend to demilichdom, which btw is not the same as ascending to divinity which Vecna accomplished. He did this by assembling a large machine powered by the lifeforces of hundreds of victims, and this machine's malfunction caused the creation of Necropolis.
Azalin performed his ritual and in the end he disappeared, and Darkon´s capital, Il Alluk became a city of the undead, ruled by his former servant (and one of his clones) Lowellyn dachine. Dachine became a negative energy elemental, a being known as Death.
For 5 years Azalin was missing, but he was not destroyed. He had merged with the land. When White-Wolf released Ravenloft 3ed, Azalin was brought back by adventurers in an attempt to stop Death from conquering all Darkon and spreading the negative energy through another domains.
Azalin returned as the Darklord of Darkon, and Il Alluk (now called Necropolis) became a separate domain ruled by Death.
The novel "Lord of the Necropolis" was declared non canon because it tried to define the true nature of Ravenloft Dark Powers, something that was meant to be never defined, and to be left as a tool for the DM.
By the way, yes, when I read about the fate of Thay I canpt avoid remebering Azalin...
To expand a little more on LK's answer above...
This is straight from Ed:-
"No, of course not. WotC authors are often asked to provide “sell copy” for book jackets, though it NEVER reaches print un-tinkered-with, but in the old TSR days, writers were rarely invited to do so. I had never seen that blurb until a copy of the book was brought to me for signing at a convention, and I certainly never wrote a word of it. No, I have never said Elminster is my “alter ego.” TSR has, many times; a practice that began in GenCon pre-registration blurb booklets, describing the seminars I did in costume, acting the part of Elminster - - ALSO a practice TSR asked me to begin and carry on. When they, many years later, asked me to leave the costume at home, I happily did so. Those robes are hot. :}
To reiterate: I have never, ever said that Elminster is my alter ego or wish fulfillment character, or thought that way for one minute. I will never use any Realms characters in that manner, because doing so would ruin the whole fun of creating the world and its characters, and watching what happens and how they evolve. Just as all of the gamers who have played various PC adventurers in my Realms sessions over the years are playing roles, not themselves."
Okay, I just want to say: I did not, repeat: *NOT* ask the questions if Ed was Elminster and Elminster Ed. I merely suggested that such questions are a part of D&D culture. Yes, I know there's no cause to the mournland. Elminster is not Ed Greenwood (their hair is different, whatever edition you look at ;) ). In fact, pointing to Dragon 359, as I did in the earlier parts of this thread, you will find these specific questions are answered in that issue. I was pointing at that issue.
However: Sage et al, thanks very much for the answers (you guys totally rock the realmslore board :D ).
Thanael: ouch. Anyway, I mentioned what you said. I said Demilich. It's not the same as godhood now, but in 2e Ravenloft TSR treated them as way powerful. The Van Richten's guide had lore that basically made them epic level threats. Acererak got destroyed in RttToH (if the PCs win; at that point a Demilich rather than Vestige) but he was attempting to become one with the Negative Plane in a way that would be way bigger than Vecna. What I mean to say is that Demiliches were uber-liches (oddly enough) back then, when godhood wasn't something folks achieved. At least not in Ravenloft!
I hadn't found out that Azalin had come back, though, as by the info I have for the Ravenloft SSS version, he hadn't come back yet.
Good to see him back, at any rate.
Anyway, my OP is that I think FR could use Szass Tam's attempts to bring to light a heretofore unknown ritual (4e level 30 or so) that's been around D&D villainy for ages. It's incredibly difficult to cast, and only a select few D&D celebrities know of it.
Okay, I just want to say: I did not, repeat: *NOT* ask the questions if Ed was Elminster and Elminster Ed. I merely suggested that such questions are a part of D&D culture. Yes, I know there's no cause to the mournland. Elminster is not Ed Greenwood (their hair is different, whatever edition you look at ;) ). In fact, pointing to Dragon 359, as I did in the earlier parts of this thread, you will find these specific questions are answered in that issue. I was pointing at that issue.
Aye.
My post was, mainly, for the benefit of those members who may not have been aware of it. And, also, to prevent the usually contested issue of "Ed really is Elminster" from popping up.
Those of you who've been around for a while may remember a game called Ravenloft. One of that game's realms was called Darkon, ruled by a powerful Lich named Azalin, who decided to elevate himself to demi-lichdom with a powerful ritual. His Apotheosis went through, and over the course of three modules the PCs got to survive it, got raised as undead, and found their way out of the city. Azalin vanished for a while, being replaced by the grim reaper, and I don't remember if he came back; still, his rivalry with Strahd was one of the most interesting parts of the setting, and he is a Ravenloft celebrity. We're never told whether he succeeded or failed (though if you have a link, please post?)
Darkon became a realm of the undead, and the main city was changed to "Necropolis".
Anyway, now Thay is an undead realm. Szass Tam decided to try his own "apotheosis", which failed, and now he's going to attempt it again.
Aside from an excuse to have reams of undead, could wotc have yet another "mystery of D&D" planned? Like, what is this ritual powerful liches keep trying? Who created it, and who's succeeded with it? Is there an artifact out there with uncompleted parts of the ritual, one part in Faerun, another in the domain of dread? Did Vecna also accomplish what Azalin did, and what Szass Tam failed to do; and if so, where is the nation-of-the-dead in Greyhawk?
Kiransalee I think succeeded.
Irae was trying to do something similar, though the Undying Temple had divinity written all over it. If it would not be destroyed it could cause some serious problems...
Who was the elder evil...Atropal? When he nears a world it is a rather nasty effect, and maybe people have tried mimicking.
The novel "Lord of the Necropolis" was declared non canon because it tried to define the true nature of Ravenloft Dark Powers, something that was meant to be never defined, and to be left as a tool for the DM.
I don't recall it defining the nature of the Dark Powers. All it did do was reveal their location (the Negative Plane), and hint that the Ravenloft was a metaphysical stepping stone between the Negative and the Prime.
I kind of liked that idea, and ran with it.
Because the Ravenloft Setting is a great place for gamers to get their 'Dark on'. :P
The novel "Lord of the Necropolis" was declared non canon because it tried to define the true nature of Ravenloft Dark Powers, something that was meant to be never defined, and to be left as a tool for the DM.
Much of the novel has been declared "non-canon," mainly due to the many inconsistencies with established RAVENLOFT lore.
Do you know how they came up with that name for Azalin's domain?
Because the Ravenloft Setting is a great place for gamers to get their 'Dark on'. :P
I have several theories on this. The 3e Gazetteer Volume II suggests two possibilities:- the first, that Darkon may have been named after the spirit Darkonos, who stole the land from the realm of Death, and the second, I assume, suggests that it was named after the king Darcalus, of the land "before" it become part of the Core.
Now that I think about it though, I seem to recall hints about the origins of the Domain's name in a previous tome. Unfortunately, I'm nowhere near my books at the moment.
Aye.
My post was, mainly, for the benefit of those members who may not have been aware of it. And, also, to prevent the usually contested issue of "Ed really is Elminster" from popping up.
Ed isn't Elminster? When did this happen?
Please tell me at least all elves are short, with funny hats, and they make only toys...
*Whole sense of reality falls apart*
;):P
-RW