The 4e maps are hopeless, aren't they?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

colman

Nov 04, 2008 15:17:50
I'm trying to put together my 4e map of the eastern edge of Corymr, the dalelands and so on, and it's pretty much hopeless: the maps from the FRCG and the Cormyr Dragon article aren't even vaguely the same shape, the new maps conflict with the old ones in all sorts of ways (my favourite so far being that Volkumburgh Vale must be, according to the scale in the map in "the Shattered Statue", somewhere on the far side of Sembia). In fact, the distance from Arabel to Suzail is about 50% bigger on the FRCG map than the Dragon map.
#2

colman

Nov 04, 2008 15:18:24
Were things this incoherent in 3e?
#3

iakhovas

Nov 04, 2008 15:45:43
Use the Cormyr map. It's more detailed and is the basis for all articles going forward.
#4

markustay63

Nov 04, 2008 19:43:39
The 4e Map has been stated by the designers as 'representive', and not entirely accurate (think of it as an 'artsy' rendition of the Realms).

My personal favorite was where the Cartographer placed Rimlost in Returned Abeir - its NOWHERE NEAR where it ought to be. Fortunately, I have placed it correctly on my version -

Gontal Map ;)
#5

rinonalyrna_fathomlin

Nov 04, 2008 20:37:03
The 4e Map has been stated by the designers as 'represntive', and not entirely accurate (think of it as an 'artsy' rendition of the Realms).

I just thought that one could say that's effectively true for all the other maps as well, especially considering that the DM can change whatever they like.
#6

markustay63

Nov 05, 2008 0:04:14
Yes, but previous maps at least pretended to be accurate - the new ones don't even keep up the pretext.

Since I am in the process of redoing some of them in the 3e style, I am amazed at the sheer lack of information on them (like that only ONE mountain range in Returned Abeir was named!)

In fact, I can't even tell what half that crap is supposed to be.
#7

colman

Nov 05, 2008 0:40:22
Use the Cormyr map. It's more detailed and is the basis for all articles going forward.

That's great Brian, except that that map ends on the Thunder Peaks and then doesn't match up with Dalelands on the representative map very well - my campaign is centered around the Peaks, so I need to extend my map out east.
#8

wannabesuperman

Nov 05, 2008 0:45:59
Story-wise, the face of the world changed 100 years ago. In that time, it would be nearly impossible for non-magical cartographers to put together a more accurate map. So don't sweat the errors in game.

Ancient maps that survive to today in the real world have generally done so because they were fairly accurate and thus were considered very valuable and rare. (I use the term "fairly accurate" loosely.)

As a DM, I only use the large FR map in the most general sense. I always assume that the smaller, more detailed maps from each region override that larger, less detailed version.

In particular, I have begun to collect the maps from Dragon and Dungeon magazines, as well as those from the new adventures.
#9

iakhovas

Nov 05, 2008 8:59:38
That's great Brian, except that that map ends on the Thunder Peaks and then doesn't match up with Dalelands on the representative map very well - my campaign is centered around the Peaks, so I need to extend my map out east.

Well, just do what I'm doing. Take the 3rd-Edition map and match it up with the 4E Cormyr map and start adding in some 4E features. This is pretty much the process I will need to undertake when I submit my map order for Backdrop Sembia. Until then, here is something I roughed out last night.

IMAGE(http://www.hobgoblin.org/DDI/Sembia.png)
#10

markustay63

Nov 05, 2008 13:36:35
Ooooohhh... somebody else is making textures in Photoshop. :D

Very nice indeed, BRJ (let me know if there is any particular region you need 'cleaned').

I'm a bit surprised I haven't gotten a single comment on that Gontal Map - I had thought it was going to be a big deal. I guess people are less interested in Returned Abeir then even I had thought.

Maybe I should have posted it in a more relevant thread (but I did want to just 'sneak it' in).

On Topic:
As for the maps, the smaller ones have ALWAYS been far more accurate then the world map, which makes perfect sense, because thats how RW maps work.

Or did you really think those cities and towns were taking up that much room?

So don't blame 4e for something it isn't responsible for - although that map just accerbates the problem far more then 1e/2e/3e ones did. The locales given on ANY world (or continental) map are just an approximation - nothing more.
#11

pamela

Nov 05, 2008 13:53:13
This is the first time I've looked at this thread, so may I say 'thank you' for the map on Gontal, MarkusTay63.
#12

colman

Nov 05, 2008 14:27:51
Oh, hey, a Gontal map. That'll be useful when I send my victims off through the tomb portal network ...
#13

colman

Nov 05, 2008 14:32:23
Well, just do what I'm doing. Take the 3rd-Edition map and match it up with the 4E Cormyr map and start adding in some 4E features.

A bit annoying, especially if you've come from 2e to 4e while skipping 3e. It would have been nice to have a usable 4e map. But I have a PDF copy of the 3e guide, so I guess I can work off that.
#14

18DELTA

Nov 05, 2008 17:00:44
-Markus PM sent. Nice Gontal map BTW!


18DELTA (The Chosen of the Greatest God in the Realms today, Cyric!!!) :P
#15

markustay63

Nov 05, 2008 17:15:14
I'm currently re-working the Returned Abeir map I did awhile back (I'm adding some much-needed details), and I will be releasing parts of it here and there.

By next week I should have the whole Abeirran continent up on my site... hopefully with pieces of both Anchorome and Lopango also showing - it just strikes me REALLY weird that it replaced Maztica, and yet neither of the other landmasses is represented on the official map.
#16

old_sage

Nov 05, 2008 18:15:39
Anchorome? Yes!
#17

BadCatMan

Nov 05, 2008 18:16:22
Another dumb thing about 4e FR - the maps only show what's mentioned in the text, and nothing more. You get a city or two, a dungeon or ruin or three, and, some murky unnamed geography, and that's it.

In older editions, many of the maps had a bunch of place names that went completely or almost completely unmentioned or undescribed in the text. It really gave a sense that there's towns and cities and locations out there just waiting for the DM to detail from scratch and parties to explore. I've had a lot of fun doing that in my own games.

4e FR just looks like uninhabited wilderness, with only what's mentioned in text that's actually worth going to.

I'm a bit surprised I haven't gotten a single comment on that Gontal Map - I had thought it was going to be a big deal. I guess people are less interested in Returned Abeir then even I had thought.

Maybe I should have posted it in a more relevant thread (but I did want to just 'sneak it' in).

You and we already know that your maps are fantastic, Markus. Do we really need to keep reminding you? :p

Are they, like, easy to make? I'm using your Old Empires map in my Chessenta game, though it's missing a few locations. :p And I've a hankering to see the Vast detailed.
#18

markustay63

Nov 05, 2008 19:55:40
I thought I did The Vast.

I'll have to check on that...

Also, let me know whenever you see something missing (or mispelled) - they are very easy to edit, and I'd prefer to have as much accuracy as possible. (so tell me what was missing from the Old Empires).

I'm constantly updating all of them, so I usually have a 'better' copy on my hardrive then whatever is floating around in the ether (and I sometimes forget to post te nwer versions).

As for the maps - its not just the lack of numerous sites, its the fact that the few that are placed are done so incorrectly in a lot of cases. We are also missing names for a lot of the new features (especially in Abeir).

I've started putting back 'undetailed' sites on my versions - those two fortified towns were only mentioned in passing in text (there are supposed to be 'several'), and I thunked-up the names.

I also have no idea what Graulthanc is , other then it is a ruin and a good place to adventure (ie, generic site). :D

Anchorome? Yes!

Down boy!

heel! :P

I started the northern edge of Katashaka when I did my Punjabbi Islands Map in the compendium, so I have some of southern Maztica done (the Lopango area, which should still be there if I'm figuring correctly). As for Anchorome, I haven't started it yet, but a small bit of it at least should be just off the northern coast of Returned Abeir. ;)
#19

BadCatMan

Nov 05, 2008 20:25:07
I thought I did The Vast.

I'll have to check on that...

Also, let me know whenever you see something missing (or mispelled) - they are very easy to edit, and I'd prefer to have as much accuracy as possible. (so tell me what was missing from the Old Empires).

You did a good one of Impiltur that included a fair bit of the Vast, but it missed a few locations from City Of Ravens Bluff. Your Old Empires map finally included those pesky Blade Kingdoms, but missed a few small places from Chessenta (Thamol and Maerior, which is hardly on any maps) and several from Unther. I'll PM you later with the details and my thoughts on placement.
#20

markustay63

Nov 06, 2008 1:18:23
Well, if I was John Belushi and this was a circa 1970's episode of SNL, I'd have to fall on my Katana right about now. :embarrass

I'm going to have to check my official maps again - I'm usually pretty thorough (and thanks again for the help).

I did do the Vast as part of the Impiltur project, but then didn't include much of it (I did something similar with Turmish when I did the Erlkazar map, and it was months later that I finally remember to release the Vilhon Reach one).

I'll have to dig through my stuff and find it; in fact, I should check everything since I've taken the maps down off of DeviantART twice now, so some of them might not be available anymore (ones that never made it to CK, for instance).
#21

tancread

Nov 11, 2008 8:19:14
Good article on how even modern maps are often not as accurate as everyone assumes in today's Strange Maps. If you look at maps from the middle ages they were often completely out of scale, they aimed at giving you the idea of where you were headed and put in the major landmarks but were very untrustworthy otherwise. I thought it was interesting that even modern maps are often messed with for graphics purposes. I know that the Realms are fictional but I am not surprised they have the same mapping issues.
#22

markustay63

Nov 11, 2008 15:01:32
Yup - sometimes a mapmaker has to adjust stuff so the map is more asthetically pleasing. Fortunately for me, I don't do RW ones, so I don't worry much about making minor changes to a Fantasy World. ;)
#23

BadCatMan

Nov 11, 2008 18:22:27
And of course it's mathematically impossible to map the surface of a sphere onto a flat surface, so no map can ever be accurate.

And each of the various projections has its own quirks, like the area around the poles being stretched out on the Mercator, which we usually see on the northern parts of Faerun and Kara-Tur.

(Still no excuse for the 4e map to be so ugly.)
#24

markustay63

Nov 12, 2008 16:08:15
You know, I was actually wondering about that as I did the northern areas of the map - especially the vast Ama Basin.

In reality, those areas aren't all that big at all, and the linear map scale just doesn't really cut it.

I think I'm going to have to add in some lattitude lines and a sliding scale on my newer ones.
#25

BadCatMan

Nov 12, 2008 18:45:47
The most accurate map is a smaller, regional one, where those stretches are negligible.

I don't think any of the maps of Abeir-Toril (I'm using the old name and I'm not changing :P ) have ever received lines of latitude or longitude. I remember having to guesstimate the equator (somewhere beneath Chult?).

I don't think the poles have ever been marked either. I like to think the island in the centre of that sea off the coast of Sossal is the North Pole. It's inhabited by gnomes even! But it seems too far south.

There's a map in the FR Atlas that shows how the planet curves around the north pole area. That's been about the best indicator we've had.

(Did you get my PM, Markus?)
#26

markustay63

Nov 12, 2008 19:27:25
Yes I did, and now that Returned Abeir (Laerakond) is complete, I can back to my 3e maps. Thanks for those pointers - I'll b checking over what I have shortly (MUCH was added since I posted the Old Empires map).

And there was a Polar projection -

IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Polar_Projection.jpg)

I think I found one with he equater on it somewhere as well - it's a little lower then I had thought, and runs throught the lower part of The Utter East (and right through the Yehimals - one of the the coldest places on Toril LOL).
#27

BadCatMan

Nov 12, 2008 20:00:21
That's the one!

Looked at like that, it's not all that far to go from, say, Icewind Dale to Koryo, just a trek across the ice cap. Or to Anchorome on the other side. Faerun seems to be the middle of an Ice Age, unlike our world.

Mountains tend to ignore things like that. They're too high. The Himalayas are between India and the deserts of Asia, for example.
#28

markustay63

Nov 12, 2008 22:06:00
I know - I just found it funny, is all. In fact, when I first noticed that a little over a year ago I checked the RW map and the Himalayas fall out in th equatorial belt as well.

FR is actually just getting over an IceAge, presumably caused by the Sundering (I find in many sources it tells about the 'receding Icecaps of Faerûn', including the Great Glacier. For example, the Glacier of the Ice Worm was part of Pelvuria until only about a century or so ago - the realm of Vassa is VERY newly recovered from under the ice. (which is how they explained it's appearance form Ed's original).