Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 thecasualoblivion Aug 15, 2008 11:13:15	Is it me, or does this 3.5E->4E changeover for the Realms and its game system remind anybody of the oWoD-> nWoD world changes? A lot of the discussion seems very similar at this point, and the criticisms with oWoD towards the end is very similar to the criticisms of the 3.5E Realms. The changes are also along similar philosophical lines.
#2 alediran Aug 15, 2008 11:20:35	Is it me, or does this 3.5E->4E changeover for the Realms and its game system remind anybody of the oWoD-> nWoD world changes? Not at all, oWoD had one setting, nWoD has another completely different that has no relation whatsoever with the oWoD metaplot. A lot of the discussion seems very similar at this point, and the criticisms with oWoD towards the end is very similar to the criticisms of the 3.5E Realms. The changes are also along similar philosophical lines. We are using oWoD and nWoD as how WotC should've brought the changes. If they wanted a new edition and the FR weren't going to be the same in 4th edition it would've been better that they stoped publishing material for them and just create a new setting. At least for me it I would've preffered that they completely stoped FR material instead of raping the setting.
#3 fire_wraith Aug 15, 2008 11:21:00	I do think this has been remarked on more than a few times, yes. It's a salient point, though what interests me more are the differences and nuances therein. To wit, would it have been 'better' to have released a completely redesigned 'alternate' Forgotten Realms, rather than try to maintain some semblance of storyline and linkage between the two? I sometimes wonder if it would or would not have generated more complaints had they done so.
#4 GreenKnight Aug 15, 2008 11:22:35	Speaking of NWoD, I ordered Hunter: The Vigil the other day and it shipped last night. I ought to get it within five days or so. /off-topic post
#5 merrikcale Aug 15, 2008 11:29:29	what is oWoD and nWoD and whats the difference between the 2? I take it has to do with the World of Darkness
#6 fire_wraith Aug 15, 2008 11:33:00	what is oWoD and nWoD and whats the difference between the 2? I take it has to do with the World of Darkness It refers to 'old World of Darkness' and 'new World of Darkness.' Short summary, White Wolf redid the entire gameworld for a new edition of their games, making a number of changes that were in some cases radical, in others less so. The two worlds, despite sharing the same name, were different, and had no storyline connection.
#7 thecasualoblivion Aug 15, 2008 11:33:32	what is oWoD and nWoD and whats the difference between the 2? I take it has to do with the World of Darkness They were the two most recent editions of World of Darkness, most notably Vampire: the Masquerade/Requiem. The game system changed, kind of in the same directions and philosphy as the 3E-4E change. The old WoD had a lot of setting detail and metaplot, which were almost completely thrown out the window when they released the new game in what was for all intents and purposes a completely different world.
#8 GreenKnight Aug 15, 2008 11:33:54	what is oWoD and nWoD and whats the difference between the 2? I take it has to do with the World of Darkness Yep. OWoD = Old World of Darkness, and NWoD = New World of Darkness. I can't really tell you about the differences, though, as I'm only just now getting back into White Wolf. The basic gist is this: You had the Apocalypse in Werewolf, Gehenna in Vampire, etc. Basically all these end times scenarios, and the idea is that they finally came to pass and the old World of Darkness passed away, with the new one being kind of like a recreation or rebirth. Not entirely sure which, though. Some of the changes include stuff like the Tremere being mages instead of vampires, and no enmity between vampires and werewolves (apparently they wanted to make it easier for vampires and werewolves to be in the same group).
#9 alediran Aug 15, 2008 11:37:38	They were the two most recent editions of World of Darkness, most notably Vampire: the Masquerade/Requiem. The game system changed, kind of in the same directions and philosphy as the 3E-4E change. The old WoD had a lot of setting detail and metaplot, which were almost completely thrown out the window when they released the new game in what was for all intents and purposes a completely different world. Mechanically they are almost the same thing, they just streamlined what they already had, that's more aking to Paizo and Pathfinder than 4th edition. Yep. OWoD = Old World of Darkness, and NWoD = New World of Darkness. I can't really tell you about the differences, though, as I'm only just now getting back into White Wolf. The basic gist is this: You had the Apocalypse in Werewolf, Gehenna in Vampire, etc. Basically all these end times scenarios, and the idea is that they finally came to pass and the old World of Darkness passed away, with the new one being kind of like a recreation or rebirth. Not entirely sure which, though. Some of the changes include stuff like the Tremere being mages instead of vampires, and no enmity between vampires and werewolves (apparently they wanted to make it easier for vampires and werewolves to be in the same group). It's not a rebirth, it's another new setting, just like Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms. And the Tremere were originaly a Vampire Bloodline that was destroyed when they tried to steal the souls of Mages with their powers, those mages got part of the Vampiric Curse and became a Left-Handed Legacy.
#10 thecasualoblivion Aug 15, 2008 11:39:56	Mechanically they are almost the same thing, they just streamlined what they already had, that's more aking to Paizo and Pathfinder than 4th edition. It was more different than that. Paizo claims to be compatible, the two WoDs are in no way compatible. There were a lot of subsystems and different ways to resolve things in oWoD, while most things in nWoD are based off of a unified system.
#11 alediran Aug 15, 2008 11:42:10	It was more different than that. Paizo claims to be compatible, the two WoDs are in no way compatible. There were a lot of subsystems and different ways to resolve things in oWoD, while most things in nWoD are based off of a unified system. It's still easier to extrapolate between oWoD and nWoD than 1st, 2nd or 3rd edition against 4th. Character conversion between WoDs is very smooth.
#12 thecasualoblivion Aug 15, 2008 11:45:00	It's still easier to extrapolate between oWoD and nWoD than 1st, 2nd or 3rd edition against 4th. Character conversion between WoDs is very smooth. True, except for people who are converting Tremere. They are largely out of luck.
#13 alediran Aug 15, 2008 11:47:52	True, except for people who are converting Tremere. They are largely out of luck. Not at all, just rename Crúac to Thaumaturgy and you have the Tremere clan.
#14 thecasualoblivion Aug 15, 2008 11:51:46	Not at all, just rename Crúac to Thaumaturgy and you have the Tremere clan. I gamed with hardcore Tremere players. The clan is gone, which was a big blow to them. Cruac also just doesn't do what you could do with Thaumaturgy mechanically. At least they've been trying with all their might to keep it that way. Thaumaturgy was crazy.
#15 mourn_dup Aug 15, 2008 11:54:07	I gamed with hardcore Tremere players. The clan is gone, which was a big blow to them. Architects of the Monolith, a bloodline, are an excellent replacement for the Tremere. They have a blood magic Discipline called The Gilded Cage. Cruac also just doesn't do what you could do with Thaumaturgy mechanically. At least they've been trying with all their might to keep it that way. Thaumaturgy was crazy. Thaumaturgy was just a power gamer's dream made manifest: a Discipline that is completely capable of duplicating any other Discipline (and more), and only relies on a single trait for every single roll.
#16 alediran Aug 15, 2008 11:59:33	I gamed with hardcore Tremere players. The clan is gone, which was a big blow to them. Cruac also just doesn't do what you could do with Thaumaturgy mechanically. At least they've been trying with all their might to keep it that way. Thaumaturgy was crazy. Hey, I'm a Tremere player too. Once played a 6th generation Tremere, my grandsire was Etrius :P
#17 18DELTA Aug 15, 2008 13:24:10	-Hook line and sinker. :P 18DELTA ;)
#18 the_shaman Aug 15, 2008 16:49:26	And the Tremere were originaly a Vampire Bloodline that was destroyed when they tried to steal the souls of Mages with their powers, those mages got part of the Vampiric Curse and became a Left-Handed Legacy. Completely off-topic but weren't the Tremere mages who first got vampirism by force from a Tzimisce elder? I do not know of any previous Tremere bloodline until then, and their exploits were cross-referenced in the Dark Ages Mage books. Speaking of which, is there a nWoD Dark Ages setting? Back on topic: No, I think the nWoD was rather an alternative mechanics and a completely reworked setting using the WoD idea. 4E FR is a development of 3.5 FR and carries much of the lore - and most of the history from the previous versions. It's a case of "Here is what happened afterwards" (4E FR = post-Spellplague FR) vs "Here is what ACTUALLY happened" (nWoD - no storyline relation to oWoD)
#19 alediran Aug 15, 2008 17:58:14	Completely off-topic but weren't the Tremere mages who first got vampirism by force from a Tzimisce elder? I do not know of any previous Tremere bloodline until then, and their exploits were cross-referenced in the Dark Ages Mage books. That was in oWoD. In nWoD they where a vampiric bloodline that was destroyed, more info can be found in the Tremere Liche Legacy in the Core Mage: the Awakening book.
#20 lord_karsus Aug 15, 2008 18:28:58	-For as radical the changes in 4e are, at least there are plenty of links to the "old" Forgotten Realms, and, though minimized, all of that history and such is still applicable and relevant. Old World of Darkness, and New World of Darkness, they were two separate things, so I take it.