the alledged church of Shar - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

the alledged church of Shar

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
bobbiwoll
Sep 22, 2008 17:47:52 Ok, ye merry gentlemen and fair ladies:

What's up with Shar, then? I quote the not so holy scripture: FR:F&P3e, pp58
Dogma:Never follow hope or turn to promises of success// The dark is the time to act, not wait. It is forbidden to strive to better your lot in life or to plan ahead except when directly overseen by a faithful of the Dark Deity.
Then comes a long bit about how everyone who dwells in the night and basically every loony on the planet recieve her favors. Ok...

In FRCS4e, it is said: Sharrans seek new members with zeal, striving to make good work seem pointless and even foolish.//Most of Shar's followeers are normal people who have surrended to despair.New recruits must prove their loyalty by performing evil acts, such as the sacrifice of a sentient being.(240)

I can't get this straight: the basic believer is a depressed person. I have known a lot of depressed persons. They all seemed fairly unlikely to start blood sacrifices. They are, however, prone to; inactivity, bouts of despair, hopelessness, and most of the dogma of Shar. And it's great to have depressed people following you, unless you want them to actually accomplish things. Remember that all followers are forbidden to "plan ahead" unless overseen, directly, by a faithful. How on Earth/Faerun do these secret societies get anything done? The managment required to motivate and organize hopeless people, in both senses of the world, must be simply astounding. It also has to take place in total secrecy, and without informing even your subordinates what's happening!? No wonder the Church of Shar fails to rule the world!

Imagine a dimly lit room, somewhere beneath say, Waterdeep:
Cast: Dark Mother "Nightwish", her second, "Darkon", and their new initiate, Tom.
Dark Mother: First, my poor Tom, you must slay the girl who so wrongfully cast you aside just to marry someone pretty and rich and well-connected. Here! take the knife, and revel in her heart's blood! Only then can you be free of your pain!
Tom: But, I don't want to. It all seems so useless. Maybe I should just sit here and look sad, and you can do it. Or not. I just don't feel like it.
Dark Mother: Ahh, but you have to! Shar demands it! The pain in your heart will eat you alive, and your life will be misery unending! Let the knife in, I'll help you...please?
Tom: Nah, can't I just pinch her some, or, like, cut off her hair or something? I would have done the same in her shoes. I stink. (He does stink).
Darkon: Never question the Dark Mother! Obey her in everything!
Tom: Why?
Darkon: Because, because, Shar demands it, and it's a secret. There you are.
Tom: can I marry someone else then?
Dark Mother: Never dare to plan ahead, or hope, or try to make things better! You are unworthy, and this is why you suffer! Let me lead you into night eternal, and all the pain in your life can be cast aside.
Tom: What's the point? I don't really like the dark, and if I just had the will, I would do something about my life, but I despair so I won't.
Darkon: Heretic! You must obey. (Kills Tom).
Dark Mother: Fool, that was the last one. Now, we must make unhappy and heartbroken lovers of another batch of young merchants! It'll take years!
darkon: That's the spirit! Despair, oh Dark Mother! I agree, what's the use, let's drink the elexirs of forgetfulness, and tomorrow this will all be gone!
Dark Mother: Don't dare to plan for tomorrow! Give me the opiate, I go first.
End of scene.

How the hell do you expect this organisation to get **** done? Beats me.
#2
lord_karsus
Sep 22, 2008 21:22:55 -The novel Mistress of the Night kind of delves into that situation, of someone who isn't fully "brainwashed" from their depression and such, if you want to give it a read. A decent book, as well.
#3
ppaladin123
Sep 23, 2008 3:03:45 Depression and despair are not the same things though they have a strong correlation. Someone in the depths of depression might succumb to despair and undergo a "dark epiphany," finding new purpose and motivation in evil.
#4
suin_bahhar_02
Sep 23, 2008 7:10:30 The ability to lash out at the world that wronged you will be slowly fostered. The dogma also caters to the whims of the present, and the right to act to your feelings. This makes the clergy advocate freedom to live by one's own dictates, a powerfully liberating notion embraceable by nearly all layers of society.
#5
neonick
Sep 24, 2008 9:44:33 I agree with OP in that Shar seems to be a very non-expanding religion and it's baffling to see that it has grown so big in FR 4th ed.

I think the reason to this expansion is actually found outside the world. I think it may well be the work of a non too thoughtful designer/writer :lightbulb. Wizard of the Coast want the world to have a lot of culprits/cultist that you can kill /on a battlemap/ with a good conciense - so a writer defined the Shar religion bigger than it could have become on it's own.

My theory is not a good explanation in-game and the OP still need an explanation/theory that works within the world. My only guess is that the 12 (?) shadow princes are the ones pulling the strings behind all hopeless and inactive believers. They order their subordinates to do things and it's thanks to the princes that the church of Shar has become so big and powerful. But what the motives are for the shadow princes I have no idea about.
#6
lord_karsus
Sep 24, 2008 11:03:44 -The story Siddhartha , amazingly enough, is actually very explanatory of the Church of Shar, and how such a cult would function.
#7
tbogenrief
Sep 24, 2008 11:05:53 They could be like modern cult leaders. Preying on those who are disaffected with their lives. Depressed, despairing, unhappy people? The clergy of Shar has the answers and can end suffering. A few charismatic priests/priestesses along with magical reinforcement would probably go a long way into making, even reasonable people give up everything they own and become cultists in Shar's service (or we could call the Kultists so they could be KISS... :D ).

It seems to work pretty good in real life when crazy leaders like Rev. Jim Jones or David Khoresh start a cult, so I don't see why the phrase, "It is forbidden to strive to better your lot in life or to plan ahead except when directly overseen by a faithful of the Dark Deity" is difficult to except as the dogma the priests hand out. They want to control those beneath them to further the aims of Shar, you can't do that with a bunch of free thinking cultists.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bobbiwoll Sep 22, 2008 17:47:52	Ok, ye merry gentlemen and fair ladies: What's up with Shar, then? I quote the not so holy scripture: FR:F&P3e, pp58 Dogma:Never follow hope or turn to promises of success// The dark is the time to act, not wait. It is forbidden to strive to better your lot in life or to plan ahead except when directly overseen by a faithful of the Dark Deity. Then comes a long bit about how everyone who dwells in the night and basically every loony on the planet recieve her favors. Ok... In FRCS4e, it is said: Sharrans seek new members with zeal, striving to make good work seem pointless and even foolish.//Most of Shar's followeers are normal people who have surrended to despair.New recruits must prove their loyalty by performing evil acts, such as the sacrifice of a sentient being.(240) I can't get this straight: the basic believer is a depressed person. I have known a lot of depressed persons. They all seemed fairly unlikely to start blood sacrifices. They are, however, prone to; inactivity, bouts of despair, hopelessness, and most of the dogma of Shar. And it's great to have depressed people following you, unless you want them to actually accomplish things. Remember that all followers are forbidden to "plan ahead" unless overseen, directly, by a faithful. How on Earth/Faerun do these secret societies get anything done? The managment required to motivate and organize hopeless people, in both senses of the world, must be simply astounding. It also has to take place in total secrecy, and without informing even your subordinates what's happening!? No wonder the Church of Shar fails to rule the world! Imagine a dimly lit room, somewhere beneath say, Waterdeep: Cast: Dark Mother "Nightwish", her second, "Darkon", and their new initiate, Tom. Dark Mother: First, my poor Tom, you must slay the girl who so wrongfully cast you aside just to marry someone pretty and rich and well-connected. Here! take the knife, and revel in her heart's blood! Only then can you be free of your pain! Tom: But, I don't want to. It all seems so useless. Maybe I should just sit here and look sad, and you can do it. Or not. I just don't feel like it. Dark Mother: Ahh, but you have to! Shar demands it! The pain in your heart will eat you alive, and your life will be misery unending! Let the knife in, I'll help you...please? Tom: Nah, can't I just pinch her some, or, like, cut off her hair or something? I would have done the same in her shoes. I stink. (He does stink). Darkon: Never question the Dark Mother! Obey her in everything! Tom: Why? Darkon: Because, because, Shar demands it, and it's a secret. There you are. Tom: can I marry someone else then? Dark Mother: Never dare to plan ahead, or hope, or try to make things better! You are unworthy, and this is why you suffer! Let me lead you into night eternal, and all the pain in your life can be cast aside. Tom: What's the point? I don't really like the dark, and if I just had the will, I would do something about my life, but I despair so I won't. Darkon: Heretic! You must obey. (Kills Tom). Dark Mother: Fool, that was the last one. Now, we must make unhappy and heartbroken lovers of another batch of young merchants! It'll take years! darkon: That's the spirit! Despair, oh Dark Mother! I agree, what's the use, let's drink the elexirs of forgetfulness, and tomorrow this will all be gone! Dark Mother: Don't dare to plan for tomorrow! Give me the opiate, I go first. End of scene. How the hell do you expect this organisation to get **** done? Beats me.
#2 lord_karsus Sep 22, 2008 21:22:55	-The novel Mistress of the Night kind of delves into that situation, of someone who isn't fully "brainwashed" from their depression and such, if you want to give it a read. A decent book, as well.
#3 ppaladin123 Sep 23, 2008 3:03:45	Depression and despair are not the same things though they have a strong correlation. Someone in the depths of depression might succumb to despair and undergo a "dark epiphany," finding new purpose and motivation in evil.
#4 suin_bahhar_02 Sep 23, 2008 7:10:30	The ability to lash out at the world that wronged you will be slowly fostered. The dogma also caters to the whims of the present, and the right to act to your feelings. This makes the clergy advocate freedom to live by one's own dictates, a powerfully liberating notion embraceable by nearly all layers of society.
#5 neonick Sep 24, 2008 9:44:33	I agree with OP in that Shar seems to be a very non-expanding religion and it's baffling to see that it has grown so big in FR 4th ed. I think the reason to this expansion is actually found outside the world. I think it may well be the work of a non too thoughtful designer/writer :lightbulb. Wizard of the Coast want the world to have a lot of culprits/cultist that you can kill /on a battlemap/ with a good conciense - so a writer defined the Shar religion bigger than it could have become on it's own. My theory is not a good explanation in-game and the OP still need an explanation/theory that works within the world. My only guess is that the 12 (?) shadow princes are the ones pulling the strings behind all hopeless and inactive believers. They order their subordinates to do things and it's thanks to the princes that the church of Shar has become so big and powerful. But what the motives are for the shadow princes I have no idea about.
#6 lord_karsus Sep 24, 2008 11:03:44	-The story Siddhartha , amazingly enough, is actually very explanatory of the Church of Shar, and how such a cult would function.
#7 tbogenrief Sep 24, 2008 11:05:53	They could be like modern cult leaders. Preying on those who are disaffected with their lives. Depressed, despairing, unhappy people? The clergy of Shar has the answers and can end suffering. A few charismatic priests/priestesses along with magical reinforcement would probably go a long way into making, even reasonable people give up everything they own and become cultists in Shar's service (or we could call the Kultists so they could be KISS... :D ). It seems to work pretty good in real life when crazy leaders like Rev. Jim Jones or David Khoresh start a cult, so I don't see why the phrase, "It is forbidden to strive to better your lot in life or to plan ahead except when directly overseen by a faithful of the Dark Deity" is difficult to except as the dogma the priests hand out. They want to control those beneath them to further the aims of Shar, you can't do that with a bunch of free thinking cultists.