MarkusTay63 wrote:
Okay, I feel better now. Carry on.
tough I've moved the ruins to Katashaka where is Qabalrin and all other drow of Xen'drik
as far as I remember Evermeet, Atorrnash had an african feel, K'anarlist seemed detached from other dark elven communities
as far as I remember Evermeet, Atorrnash had an african feel, K'anarlist seemed detached from other dark elven communities
-Mgube, his Wemic slave, has an African feel, with him coming from what would become the Shaar and everything. The rest of the city never was described that way, though. Marketplaces, every "middle aged" settlement had one. Ka'Narlist's Tower, large towers aren't really African-esque.
Regards,
AryaNightingale
-But, we can't know for absolutely sure. It can be anywhere in that sea area that Ilythiir encapsulates.
Thats precisely where I have figured it to be - and it also just so happens to be in the exact spot where Calishite lore says Calim sunk Ajhuutal, which ties in perfectly!
Well... sort of... we have two civilizations dropped to the bottom of the Sea in roughly the same area. It would be kinda cool to say the Marid - whatever his name was again - didn't so much create the city, but rather rebuilt it from ancient ruins he found. That would make Ajhuutal the same city as Attornash, and we can see its ruins in This Picture.
Isn't it amusing that the artist mispelled the name of the city? One more instance where those creating for the Realms didn't bother to do their homework.
-Is not Washington D.C. located on the eastern coast of the U.S.?[/quote
I understand this, but from that entire chapter of the book, it appears that Atorrnash is on the very outskirts of Illythiir lands, and that Ka'Narlist is a bit of an 'outsider' himself. That is what I get out of that chapter - obviously you read something entirely different into it - just a matter of perspective. NO WHERE is he called "King of the Illythiiri" - that was NOT Elaine's intention. Someone else came along and added that bit into the GHotR (which I still insist is incorrect).
--Cornaith says that he and his father have been on the road for two years (E:IoE Pg. 106). In two years of travel, a thousand miles of traveling distance is not anything special. Tying this point into my earlier point, I do not see how Atorrnash's exact location is indicative of anything.
The 'two years' does not apply here - they were told they would be entering into the lands of the Dark Elves soon, and Atorrnash was "not quite three days travel to the south". This means that the very FIRST settlement of Dark Elves they came across was that of Ka'Narlist's - on the very fringes of the Dark Elven lands. My comment about 'telelporting' was referring to them NOT being in the center of those lands, but on the very border of them.
However, I understand your argument, taking that blasphemous entry in the GHotR into account (:yuck
, then I have to re-think my conclusions, and say that Atorrnash became central to the Dark Elven lands during the aggressive expansionist period.I also fully understand that a 'capital' does not have to be in the center of a nation, but with more primitive cultures (as the early Illythiir were), it is normal for a settlement to be at the center of the area the tribe considers 'their territory'. The only time that isn't the case is when they run into a geographic obstacle - like mountains or bodies of water - or another tribe making claims of their own.
This is why I feel that at the time of Elaine's book (that particular chapter, at any rate), Atorrnash was NOT a capital (NO WHERE does it imply that), and that the city and its people were seperated from the main body of Illythiiri, both literally, and perhaps in spirit (although that last bit is conjecture).
--I have not yet even opened the GHotR book (hardcover print version). Nothing that you have said thus far is particularly supported in the .PDF AGHotR, or the actual text of Evermeet: Island of the Elves. That the print version of AGHotR outright states that Atorrnash was the capital of Ilythiir is just "icing on the cake", as they say.
Right... and that book was published in 2007, and NOTHING before it states that Ka'Narlist had any sort of power over the main body of Illythiiri Elves. It was a RETCON... and a rather poor one at that.
Everything in the chapter screams to me "Outcast!", and yet some designer chose to make him king. I can not argue with canon, poor as it may be, but I think it was a HUGE mistake - it changes the feel of what Elaine was going for. In fact, I DO have canon to back me - Eilistraee says that the main body of Illythiir Elves in the south worship Vhaeraun, and then she goes on to tell them that they will first encounter Atorrnash - which turns out to be a city dedicated to Ghaunadar!
The text explicity says that Vhaeraun's power-base is growing amongst the Illythiir - the ILLYTHIIR! - but this first city, on the hinterlands of Dark Elven territory, is clearly in Ghaunadar's sway. I don't understand why you can't see that at that time, Ka'Narlist was quite clearly an outcast... perhaps self-exiled to avoid persecution (I never said he was driven out).
However, the novel does go on to say that Ka'Narlist rose to significant power later on, with Lolth's help - NOT when he was still worshipping Ghaunadar... so the Kingship mentioned in the GHotR is indeed reconcilable... but NOT at the time of the encounter with the Moonflowers (god... I hate that name...)
That entire series of events leads me to draw the conclusion that the Dark Elves - for the most part - were wild savages easily given to battle, but then were swayed by Vhaeraun and Ghaunadar - the text says as much, in regards to Eilistraee having to flee at that point (she obviously HAD a power-base, but then slowly lost it to Vhaeraun, which she actually states). Almost all of Eilistraee's dialogue has to do with the Dark Elves 'gone bad' because of the mildly evil influence of Vhaeraun. Ghaunadar only had a small power-base by comparison, amongst the truly 'sick' Dark Elves who had no morals and behaved in a more sociopathic manner (like Ka'Narlist, and his followers).
I use the words 'mildly evil' when describing Vhaeraun above, beause it is by comparison; Eilistraee obviously thought he was a pretty bad dude, but compared to the Ghaunadar worshippers in Atorrnash, and then later the TOTAL fall of the Dark Elves to Lolth, Vhaeraun was indeed 'mildly evil'.
--Lolth learned of Realmspace in -24,400 DR. According to the print version of AGHotR, Atorrnash was already the capital of Ilythiir. The text of Evermeet: Island of Elves demonstrates Atorrnash's political significance (as explained above), which occurred before Lolth learned of Realmspace.
Right - he was a powerful sorceror who worshipped Ghaunadar, NOT Lolth, and with that power and his unholy evil he spread his own power-base outward from Atorrnash at a later time then that which happens in the novel. HE did NOT worship Vhaeraun, so he could NOT have been leader of a people at that time, whom Eilistraee explicity states worship Vhaeraun.
The way I see it, it went something like this -
1) Illythiir worship totemic spirits and local 'spirits'.
2) Illythiir slowly begin to worship Eilistraee, and her influence spreads
3) Vhaeraun arrives on the scene, and appeals to the Illythiir's baser instincts. They are Elves after all, and its pretty easy to convince an Elf of his superiority, and why he 'deserves' someone else's property (rememebr the Netherscrolls? :devil
4) Ghaunadar also arrives on the scene around now, and for those Dark Elves who have already been tempted by greed, it is a much faster fall to the even viler depradations of Ghaunadar's worship.
5) Between Vhaeraun's fomenting greed and covetness amongst the Illythiir, and Ghaunadar's corrupting the leaders with raw power, the Illythiir are this point (that scene in the novel) are ripe for Lolth's machinations, and also have stopped worshipping Eilistraee for the most part (except in small, secretive cults, which manages to survibe until the current age).
6) Lolth discovers Toril, and sees 'her' people ripe for the harvesting. I almost get the feeling she allows Ghaunadar and Vhaeraun to make in-roads with Dark Elves throughout the prime just to make her job easier later on. Anyhow, she grabs the most powerful - and interesting - Dark Elf she can find, and makes him her acolyte; Ka'Narlist. At this point the Elf switches allegiances to the even more powerful Lolth, and easily conquers te lands under the sway of Vhaeraun (who may have even allowed his mother to do this quickly - he was her toadie back then). Either way, by force or subversion, the fairly primitive Illythiir would have succumbed quickly, especally with promises of greater conquests.
7) The Dark Elven leadership is now wholly evil, mostly worshipping Lolth, with a few holdouts perhaps still following Vhaeraun and Ghaunadar (which still falls under Lolth's sway). The people are not entirely evil... yet... but they are amoral and more then willing to take the land of others (which they have convinved themselves is rightfully theirs). The leadership needs but one thing more to drive them over the edge and openly enlist the aid of fiends.
8) The one thing happens - the fallen Solar Malkizid does to the Arvandaar Elves what Vhaeraun, Ghaunadar, and Lolth have done to the Illythiir - slowly corrupted them into thinking that THEY deserve to rule all others. The Vyshaantar Empire obliterates the only northern kingdom of Dark Elves - Miyeritar - which is all it takes to drive the Dark Elves of illythiir into a bloodlusting frenzy.
9) The Descent
I do not think they were wholly corrupted during the first Crown war, or when they pulled that brilliant piece of espionage with the War of Three Leaves (that's just politics at its finest). I think the final line was crossed the day that Miyeritar was destroyed - after that, mob mentality took over and they gladly excepted Fiendish aid and dark Magics to help in their cause.
I can't help but notice that both Lolth and Malkizid 'fell' at the same time - coincidence? I think not...
Driving the Dark Elves into a rage seems to have been Malkizid's goal all along. In a way, by forcing the hand of Fate and having Corellon participate in the cursing of the Dark Elves, she was able to 'sully' even the Seldarine in that act. Being a Greyhawk-Drow afficionado long before I was an FR one, I like the idea that Lolth is like some great spider, always pulling on this strand or that one, making all her schemes see fruition, even if some take thousands of years. I think she could teach Shar a thing or two.
--Why are you going with the..."assumption" that the capital of Ilythiir needs to be a central region, in respect to the entire area of influence the empire had? I see it influencing a lot, if not all, of your argument, and it is something that does not really matter at all.
I explained that above - why are you fostering onto a fairly primitive people (Dark Elves were Wild Ellves back then) modern concepts? The City of Atorrnash needn't be central to the lands it controls, but if there was ANY governing body amongst the Illythiiri tribes at all, it would have been centralized to their lands, which is true of most tribal peoples (except under the conditions I outlined above). Exceptions do exist, but in the majority, a people will spread in all directions, unless otherwise hindered. Atorrnash may have become capital later - and canon says it did - but the civilization of the Dark Elves would have expanded from a central point, not from the edge of its lands.
Caveat:
However, Elves are not humans, and it is possible to also say their migratory patterns are greatly affected by forestation, and if they arrived at the edge of a woodlands, then they probably would indeed spread in only that direction. (I have to be fair here).
--Man, I miss debates like this. I wish there were copies of yourself and myself, to add to the in-depth debates.
Me too. :D
As a final note - the Sundering would also have been taken as an 'attack' by the Illythiir - they lost land and a great deal was changed. From Elaine's novel, I get the idea that the Sundering destroyed Atorrnash asw well, but I'm not seeing that ATM in the GHotR. It would have been very easy for Vhaeraun, Ghaunadar, and Lolth to have used that to begin corrupting the Dark Elves that were formerly worshippers of Eilistraee.
Also, I noted something intersting in the text I had not noted before... intersting indeed. This post has gone on long enoug though, so I will ave that for another arg.. discussion. ;)
-Mgube, his Wemic slave, has an African feel, with him coming from what would become the Shaar and everything. The rest of the city never was described that way, though. Marketplaces, every "middle aged" settlement had one. Ka'Narlist's Tower, large towers aren't really African-esque.
that name sounds more Chultan than Shaaran, maybe even Katashaka, pure speculation tough
African civilizations had towers, e.g. Great Zimbabwe
Wemics out of katashaka... it feels... right.
On the other side of the coin, I think making our dark Elves too Africanesqu may be crossing into dangerous waters (and also gives us a bit of an Eberron-thing going on).
Hmmph... actually, FR had 'Jungle' Drow (Maztica) first as well - is there nothing that evil setting didn't steal from us? :P
Oh looky, a "wanna fight about it?" thread! :D
-Right.
Isn't it amusing that the artist mispelled the name of the city? One more instance where those creating for the Realms didn't bother to do their homework.
-In his defense, he is only an artist. The person who gave him his assignment could have written it down misspelled.
I understand this, but from that entire chapter of the book, it appears that Atorrnash is on the very outskirts of Illythiir lands, and that Ka'Narlist is a bit of an 'outsider' himself. That is what I get out of that chapter - obviously you read something entirely different into it - just a matter of perspective. NO WHERE is he called "King of the Illythiiri" - that was NOT Elaine's intention. Someone else came along and added that bit into the GHotR (which I still insist is incorrect).
-Where are you getting this impression? Nothing in the text says anything about Atorrnash existing on the fringes of Ilythiir, nor Ka'Narlist being an outsider. It has Atorrnash as an Ilythiiri city, and Ka'Narlist being it's leader. Elaine Cunningham's intention was exactly as it is portrayed in the book- an archmage ruler of the city of Atorrnash.
The 'two years' does not apply here - they were told they would be entering into the lands of the Dark Elves soon, and Atorrnash was "not quite three days travel to the south". This means that the very FIRST settlement of Dark Elves they came across was that of Ka'Narlist's - on the very fringes of the Dark Elven lands. My comment about 'telelporting' was referring to them NOT being in the center of those lands, but on the very border of them.
-This makes no sense. As was stated, on page 106, it states specifically that the two had been traveling for about two years. During the campfire scene, there is no mention of where the pair actually is. Atorrnash is "three days travel to the south" (Pg 110-111) of where they are. Again, where they are is not actually said. The two could have easily been within the lands that Ilythiir ruled over, but had simply not stopped in any of them, wanting to go directly to Atorrnash- which supports the claim that Atorrnash was not a fringe city, as you claim, but rather, an important city, where formal treaties and such could be officially written out and agreed to. That was, after all, the point that Sharlario and his son were journeying. Page 106 mentions how they had, on their journey, made diplomatic alliances with no less than 10 Wood ("Wild") Elf settlements. Regardless, however, again, Atorrnash's physical location does not matter, in relation to it's status within Ilythiir.
However, I understand your argument, taking that blasphemous entry in the GHotR into accoount (:yuck
-Again, without even consulting AGHotR, using only Evermeet: Island of Elves, Sharlario and Cornaith have Atorrnash as their destination on their journey to make diplomatic alliances with Elven settlements near and around the settlement that would eventually become Sharlarion. If the city had no relative importance, in regards to Ilythiir as a whole, why would they make it their destination, when seeking to make an alliance with Ilythiir? If a foreign dignitary wanted to enter into a treaty with the United States, where would he/she go? Kalamazoo, Michigan, or Washington, D.C.?
I also fully understand that a 'capital' does not have to be in the center of a nation, but with more primitive cultures (as the early Illythiir were), it is normal for a settlement to be at the center of the area the tribe considers 'their territory'. The only time that isn't the case is when they run into a geographic obstacle - like mountains or bodies of water - or another tribe making claims of their own.
This is why I feel that at the time of Elaine's book (that particular chapter, at any rate), Atorrnash was NOT a capital (NO WHERE does it imply that), and that the city and its people were seperated from the main body of Illythiiri, both literally, and perhaps in spirit (although that last bit is conjecture).
-The Ilythiiri were far from a primitive culture. Using only Evermeet: Island of Elves, we see that Atorrnash is a city that causes Sharlario, who had seen the wonders of the Plane of Faerie, to be impressed, with it's architecture, it's magical wonder, it's craftsmanship, and so on.
Right... and that book was published in 2007, and NOTHING before it states that Ka'Narlist had any sort of power over the main body of Illythiiri Elves. It was a RETCON... and a rather poor one at that.
-If Atorrnash was a fringe city that mattered little, in relative terms, to the general politics of Ilythiir, and Ka'Narlist was without any kind of power over the Ilythiiri government, why was it the destination of who diplomats seeking to sign into international law a treaty between the two settlements?
Everything in the chapter screams to me "Outcast!", and yet some designer chose to make him king. I can not argue with canon, poor as it may be, but I think it was a HUGE mistake - it changes the feel of what Elaine was going for. In fact, I DO have canon to back me - Eilistraee says that the main body of Illythiir Elves in the south worship Vhaeraun, and then she goes on to tell them that they will first encounter Atorrnash - which turns out to be a city dedicated to Ghaunadar!
The text explicity says that Vhaeraun's power-base is growing amongst the Illythiir - the ILLYTHIIR! - but this first city, on the hinterlands of Dark Elven territory, is clearly in Ghaunadar's sway. I don't understand why you can't see that at that time, Ka'Narlist was quite clearly an outcast... perhaps self-exiled to avoid persecution (I never said he was driven out).
-You don't have any canon to back your claim up. On page 109, Eilistraee does indeed say that "many of the Elves [there, in Ilythiir] worship Vhaeraun." Page 116 has Ka'Narlist saying, "Vhaeraun! A minor godling, an upstart!...I myself have nothing to do with this god." Ka'Narlist himself states that his patron was Ghaunadaur. That is all. Ka'Narlist is dedicated to Ghaunadaur. Atorrnash is not, necessarily. There are no mentions on this matter. Regardless however, and I've asked you before, what matter does a leader's personal religion have on his/her "subjects"? President Obama is some kind of Christian. Does that make me some kind of Christian? Or you? Does the fact that President Obama is some kind of Christian make the 16.1% of the country that is agnostic and/or atheist Christian as well?
However, the novel does go on to say that Ka'Narlist rose to significant power later on, with Lolth's help - NOT when he was still worshipping Ghaunadar... so the Kingship mentioned in the GHotR is indeed reconcilable... but NOT at the time of the encounter with the Moonflowers (god... I hate that name...)
-Where is the citation for this? The scene with Lolth on page 173-174 makes no mention Lolth being the ticket for his significant power, nor does the scene on page 154-156.
That entire series of events leads me to draw the conclusion that the Dark Elves - for the most part - were wild savages easily given to battle, but then were swayed by Vhaeraun and Ghaunadar - the text says as much, in regards to Eilistraee having to flee at that point (she obviously HAD a power-base, but then slowly lost it to Vhaeraun, which she actually states). Almost all of Eilistraee's dialogue has to do with the Dark Elves 'gone bad' because of the mildly evil influence of Vhaeraun. Ghaunadar only had a small power-base by comparison, amongst the truly 'sick' Dark Elves who had no morals and behaved in a more sociopathic manner (like Ka'Narlist, and his followers).
I use the words 'mildly evil' when describing Vhaeraun above, beause it is by comparison; Eilistraee obviously thought he was a pretty bad dude, but compared to the Ghaunadar worshippers in Atorrnash, and then later the TOTAL fall of the Dark Elves to Lolth, Vhaeraun was indeed 'mildly evil'.
-This much, I can agree with, though I don't think the term "wild savages easily given to battle" is fully accurate.
Right - he was a powerful sorceror who worshipped Ghaunadar, NOT Lolth, and with that power and his unholy evil he spread his own power-base outward from Atorrnash at a later time then that which happens in the novel. HE did NOT worship Vhaeraun, so he could NOT have been leader of a people at that time, whom Eilistraee explicity states worship Vhaeraun.
-Two things: (A) cite the specific passage where it is said that he spread his power base from Atorrnash at a later point. (B) As was discussed above, your argument that he could not have been the leader of the Ilythiiri is made on incorrect grounds, as the reason you are claiming he cannot be (his religion, as opposed to the religion of the majority of Ilythiiri citizens) has no grounds of evidence to support it.
The way I see it, it went something like this -
1) Illythiir worship totemic spirits and local 'spirits'.
2) Illythiir slowly begin to worship Eilistraee, and her influence spreads
3) Vhaeraun arrives on the scene, and appeals to the Illythiir's baser instincts. They are Elves after all, and its pretty easy to convince an Elf of his superiority, and why he 'deserves' someone else's property (rememebr the Netherscrolls? :devil
4) Ghaunadar also arrives on the scene around now, and for those Dark Elves who have already been tempted by greed, it is a much faster fall to the even viler depradations of Ghaunadar's worship.
5) Between Vhaeraun's fomenting greed and covetness amongst the Illythiir, and Ghaunadar's corrupting the leaders with raw power, the Illythiir are this point (that scene in the novel) are ripe for Lolth's machinations, and also have stopped worshipping Eilistraee for the most part (except in small, secretive cults, which manages to survibe until the current age).
6) Lolth discovers Toril, and sees 'her' people ripe for the harvesting. I almost get the feeling she allows Ghaunadar and Vhaeraun to make in-roads with Dark Elves throughout the prime just to make her job easier later on. Anyhow, she grabs the most powerful - and interesting - Dark Elf she can find, and makes him her acolyte; Ka'Narlist. At this point the Elf switches allegiances to the even more powerful Lolth, and easily conquers te lands under the sway of Vhaeraun (who may have even allowed his mother to do this quickly - he was her toadie back then). Either way, by force or subversion, the fairly primitive Illythiir would have succumbed quickly, especally with promises of greater conquests.
7) The Dark Elven leadership is now wholly evil, mostly worshipping Lolth, with a few holdouts perhaps still following Vhaeraun and Ghaunadar (which still falls under Lolth's sway). The people are not entirely evil... yet... but they are amoral and more then willing to take the land of others (which they have convinved themselves is rightfully theirs). The leadership needs but one thing more to drive them over the edge and openly enlist the aid of fiends.
8) The one thing happens - the fallen Solar Malkizid does to the Arvandaar Elves what Vhaeraun, Ghaunadar, and Lolth have done to the Illythiir - slowly corrupted them into thinking that THEY deserve to rule all others. The Vyshaantar Empire obliterates the only northern kingdom of Dark Elves - Miyeritar - which is all it takes to drive the Dark Elves of illythiir into a bloodlusting frenzy.
9) The Descent
-I more or less agree with this. I don't necessarily think, however, that the Ilythiiri first worshiped Eilistraee, and then abandoned her for Vhaeraun.
I do not think they were wholly corrupted during the first Crown war, or when they pulled that brilliant piece of espionage with the War of Three Leaves (that's just politics at its finest). I think the final line was crossed the day that Miyeritar was destroyed - after that, mob mentality took over and they gladly excepted Fiendish aid and dark Magics to help in their cause.
-Correct, more or less. The leadership of Ilythiir, up until the start of the Fourth Crown War, practiced their..."black magic" in secret. When the Fourth Crown War started, they openly used Lolth, Wendonai and Ghaunadaur's power, for all to see (and fear). This was the line that, when crossing, could not be crossed back. This is the leadership of the nation, however- not necessarily individual citizens.
I explained that above - why are you fostering onto a fairly primitive people (Dark Elves were Wild Ellves back then) modern concepts? The City of Atorrnash needn't be central to the lands it controls, but if there was ANY governing body amongst the Illythiiri tribes at all, it would have been centralized to their lands, which is true of most tribal peoples (except under the conditions I outlined above). Exceptions do exist, but in the majority, a people will spread in all directions, unless otherwise hindered. Atorrnash may have become capital later - and canon says it did - but the civilization of the Dark Elves would have expanded from a central point, not from the edge of its lands.
-As explained earlier, the Ilythiiri at this point in time were not a primitive people. Atorrnash was a magical city of extremes. The magicians of Atorrnash had been able to weave wards and such that kept the regional Dragon Barons away from the city. Just because Wood ("Wild") Elves live off the land and such does not make them primitive or stupid. The Wood ("Wild") Elves of the Wealdath, for instance, have a "complex" governmental system- that is, something that is not cave-man primitive. Why would the Ilythiiri, wielders of great and mighty magics, builders of great and mighty structures and such, not be "savage people"?
As a final note - the Sundering would also have been taken as an 'attack' by the Illythiir - they lost land and a great deal was changed. From Elaine's novel, I get the idea that the Sundering destroyed Atorrnash asw well, but I'm not seeing that ATM in the GHotR. It would have been very easy for Vhaeraun, Ghaunadar, and Lolth to have used that to begin corrupting the Dark Elves that were formerly worshippers of Eilistraee.
-Maybe, maybe not. They weren't invited to the casting of the Sundering, but, even if they were, no one knew the havoc that the spell was going to cast. The span from when the spell was cast, to when the Ilythiiri became major players in international politics (-24,000 [The Sundering] to -17,100 DR [The War of Three Leaves]) does show that it seems it took those who survived a while to "get back on their feet". This situation would be ideal for Lolth, who would have just lost Ka'Narlist, and would be looking for more ways to insert herself into Dark Elven life.
-Evermeet: Island of Elves mentions the destruction of Atorrnash on page 174.
You are saying that a goddes was INCORRECT, and that a mortal - one who happens to be your 'pet' (leaving out ALL objectivity) - was more correct?
I also need to check your copy of the book... mine seems to be missing a few lines. :D
When Eilistraee tells the Moonflowers about Atorrnash - when they are JUST THREE DAYS AWAY - my copy of the book is missing the sentnce where shalario says "Hey! Thats where we've been heading these past two years... I'll be damned!"
And you accuse ME of reading into things?
The entire exchange between the goddess and the Elves is about Vhaeraun's evil followers -the Illythiiri. She merely mentions Atorrnash at the end as an afterthought - it isn't even the main thrust of the conversation - she just passes on a warning!
I'd just like to add that you also assumed that two 'faerie' Elves manage to be inside of illythiir territory for a considerable period of time - making it all the way to the capital, umolested? Boy... and they say I live in a fantasy world... you really don't think much of Drow/Dark Elves, do you? Those incredibly stealthy Moon Elves sure are super-cool and tricky. :P
Anyhow, I'll drop the point about the location - I know I'm right, but that really has nothing to do with weather Ka'Narlist had ANY ruling power over Dark Elves outside his city until after his association with Lolth, which is the crux of the matter here.
If that erroneous entry was never made in the GhotR, you wouldn't even have a leg to stand on. The Illythiir worshipped Vhaeraun - the text clearly states that - and later we meet Ka'Narlist - a minor player accept in his own city (because Eilistraee never even bothers to mention him by name) - who worships Ghaunadar.
Unless you are saying that Ghaunadar is the same being as Vhaeraun, I simply cannot accept your arguments.
Its as if you are just ignoring the main body of the deific exchange and just focusing on one or two things said by an obviously self-agrandizing tyrant.
The only person who thought Ka'Narlist was worthy of rulership was ka'Narlist himself - even his henchmen wanted to see him dead.
You are saying that a goddes was INCORRECT, and that a mortal - one who happens to be your 'pet' (leaving out ALL objectivity) - was more correct?
-Eilistraee didn't say anything that can be construed as you are construing it.
I also need to check your copy of the book... mine seems to be missing a few lines. :D
-Apparently so. I can scan the pages I am citing, highlight them, and post them, if that helps.
When Eilistraee tells the Moonflowers about Atorrnash - when they are JUST THREE DAYS AWAY - my copy of the book is missing the sentnce where shalario says "Hey! Thats where we've been heading these past two years... I'll be damned!"
-Page 106:
"Yet we have accomplished much this trip," the young Elf said earnestly. "We have been gone from the mountains not quite two years, yet we have established diplomatic ties with no fewer than ten Green Elven settlements..."
-Nowhere is their actual location mentioned anywhere. The father and son pair are indeed three days from Atorrnash. That does not mean that Atorrnash was three days from the settlement that later became Sharlarion, but rather, that it was three days from where ever their campfire was. This is a tangent that has no real bearing on the discussion at large, but I still feel compelled to discuss it.
And you accuse ME of reading into things?
-Yes.
The entire exchange between the goddess and the Elves is about Vhaeraun's evil followers -the Illythiiri. She merely mentions Atorrnash at the end as an afterthought - it isn't even the main thrust of the conversation - she just passes on a warning!
-Page 110:
"High Magic, which brought you to this place, can be a wonderous thing. It can also be used for great evil. You will find this to be true if you visit Atorrnash. You who have never had reason to fear magic must learn to be weary of it and those who wield it."
"Atorrnash?" ventured Cornaith.
"It is a great city, not quite three days travel to the south. You will find great riches, powerful magic, and those who offer alliance in your battle against the Dragons. Consider these gifts carefully- some carry a hidden price."
-This does not seem dismissive of the city. In fact, Eilistraee confirms that Atorrnash is indeed where Sharlario and Cornaith, diplomats, can forge international treaties binding Ilythiir and the settlement that would become Sharlario. Specifically, "You will find...and those who offer alliance in your battle against the Dragons." If the Dark Elves of Atorrnash were not able to forge treaties on behalf of Ilythiir, why would Eilistraee say that they are able to?
I'd just like to add that you also assumed that two 'faerie' Elves manage to be inside of illythiir territory for a considerable period of time - making it all the way to the capital, umolested? Boy... and they say I live in a fantasy world... you really don't think much of Drow/Dark Elves, do you? Those incredibly stealthy Moon Elves sure are super-cool and tricky. :P
-Where does it say that Sharlario and Cornaith weren't molested by Dark Elven border security-type soldiers? Or given promise of safe passage to Atorrnash?
Anyhow, I'll drop the point about the location - I know I'm right, but that really has nothing to do with weather Ka'Narlist had ANY ruling power over Dark Elves outside his city until after his association with Lolth, which is the crux of the matter here.
-Atorrnash has no canon location, at the end of the day, and has only, at best, a speculative location that both you and I agree on, because of the general ambiguity of it.
If that erroneous entry was never made in the GhotR, you wouldn't even have a leg to stand on. The Illythiir worshipped Vhaeraun - the text clearly states that - and later we meet Ka'Narlist - a minor player accept in his own city (because Eilistraee never even bothers to mention him by name) - who worships Ghaunadar.
-As I said earlier, I proved my point without even consulting the print version of AGHotR, using only the text of Evermeet: Island of Elves. You are using an erroneous argument to prove your point- thus, it is incorrect. Again, as you didn't answer the question: What matter does a leader's personal religion have on his/her "subjects"? President Obama is some kind of Christian. Does that make me some kind of Christian? Or you? Does the fact that President Obama is some kind of Christian make the 16.1% of the country that is agnostic and/or atheist Christian as well? President John F. Kennedy was a Catholic. According to census data (the times don't match up, but that doesn't negate the point), 51.3% of the United States is affiliated with some kind of Christian Protestant religion. Only 23.9% are Catholics. By your own reasoning, since J.F.K. was in a relative minority, in terms of what religion he associated himself with, he couldn't have been the leader of the United States. But, clearly he was. Ka'Narlist's personal religion, like J.F.K., has no impact on anything, except for where he will go when he dies (and, even this changes as more of the story unfolds).
-Here's a more contemporary example: Mike Bloomberg is the mayor here, as I am sure you know. He is Jewish. Jews only make up 18.27% of the city's population. Catholics make up 51.73%, atheists/agnostics 6.56%, other Protestants 8.93%, and other religions that remaining 4.42%. How is Mike Bloomberg, a Jew, possibly the mayor of a place where roughly 80% of the residents are members of a different religion? Using the arguments that you are making, he can't. But, obviously, in reality, he is.
Unless you are saying that Ghaunadar is the same being as Vhaeraun, I simply cannot accept your arguments.
-Why would Ghaunadaur need to be Vhaeraun? Ghaunadaur is worshipped by Ka'Narlist and certain others. Vhaeraun is worshiped, by and large, by the majority of Ilythiiri. What religions individuals choose to adhere to have absolutely no bearing on anything, in this situation.
Its as if you are just ignoring the main body of the deific exchange and just focusing on one or two things said by an obviously self-agrandizing tyrant.
The only person who thought Ka'Narlist was worthy of rulership was ka'Narlist himself - even his henchmen wanted to see him dead.
-There is nothing in the exchange between Eilistraee and Sharlario and Cornaith that supports what you are saying, or rather, disproves what I am saying.
-I'll try to get back as soon as possible. I'm playing D&D tonight, and my girlfriend is going to be staying over, so we're going to be doing stuff over the weekend, so I won't be able to sit in front of the computer too long.
What you quoted says that they were in GREEN ELVEN LANDS, NOT Dark Elven Lands. The text of the chapter states that they were just coming to the Dark Elven Lands. The very first (FR) encounter with Dark Elves - in canon (be it novel or GHOtR) - is when they entered Atorrnash.
They had JUST ARRIVED in the Dark Elven lands.
Anyhow, like I said, we agree on about where it was, so that point is silly and not really the point at all.
You also quoted a SENTENCE that takes place at the very end of the exchange between the Elves and Eilistraee.
As I said... she mentioned it almost as an afterthought.
The rest of her conversation concerned her losing power to Vhaeraun - Ghaunadar is NEVER EVEN MENTIONED.
And Ka'Narlist was an A-hole, right? On that much we can agree?
In fact, he was kinda like an Elven Saddam Hussein.
And we all know how religously TOLERANT he was.
In fact, if I not mistaken, nearly every, single Tyrant in history was religously tolerant (especially that German guy... what's his name?) :P
So Ka'Narlist, being the kind-hearted slob he was worshipped Ghaunadar, but didn't mind EVERYONE ELSE (outside his city) worshipping Vhaeraun, and by the same token, Ghaunadar, being the magnanimous deity that he is, was more then happy to allow his servant - Ka'Narlist - to allow the rest of Illythiir society to go on worshipping other gods.
Because... you know... gods don't really want followers... especially evil ones...
Just not seeing it AT ALL. Elaine paints a very nice picture of a monster - an evil sorceror of immense power who has moved away from the more populated dark Elven Lands so that he could conduct all his vile experiments and worship HIS OWN vile god, without being disturbed. Even his 'followers' couldn't stand him - he was no leader, he was a tyrannical dictator who managed - with Lolth's help - to eventually seize power of the Illythiir.
THAT's the picture Elaine painted, and thats the one I see.
I really wish she still participated over at CK, we could ask her ourselves (and I'd be willing to make a money wager on it). Of course, WotC has driven her far from FR these days, so I doubt she'd answer us. That blurb about Ka'Narlist in the GHotR was probably just one more piece of her lore they screwed-up.
Did he become more powerful later on? Of course... the text of E:IoE says as much... but only after he became Lolth's pet.
If I were to use him anywhere in my Realms, I'd say he was Kiaransalee's footstool these days. She seems to like dead things.
That would make the most sense.
Of course, she's gone too, so who knows? He'll probably make a comeback in 4e, just like everything else.
Okay - you actually proved MY point there - I'm getting tired of this 'picking-apart' thingy...
What you quoted says that they were in GREEN ELVEN LANDS, NOT Dark Elven Lands. The text of the chapter states that they were just coming to the Dark Elven Lands. The very first (FR) encounter with Dark Elves - in canon (be it novel or GHOtR) - is when they entered Atorrnash.
-Incorrect. Nowhere in the text of page 106-107 says that the pair are in "GREEN ELVEN LANDS". There is no location given for where they are in the text, other than somewhere obviously on Faerûn and somewhere about three days from Atorrnash.
They had JUST ARRIVED in the Dark Elven lands.
-Nothing in the text says this. There is no location given for where they are in the text, other than somewhere obviously on Faerûn and somewhere about three days from Atorrnash.
Anyhow, like I said, we agree on about where it was, so that point is silly and not really the point at all.
-Correct. It's location isn't of too much importance, but, in relation to the discussion, the location of Sharlario and Cornaith is something that we remain in disagreement over.
You also quoted a SENTENCE that takes place at the very end of the exchange between the Elves and Eilistraee.
As I said... she mentioned it almost as an afterthought.
The rest of her conversation concerned her losing power to Vhaeraun - Ghaunadar is NEVER EVEN MENTIONED.
-The exchange between Eilistraee and Sharlario and Cornaith deals primarily with Eilistraee explaining to the duo who Vhaeraun is, why she is not worshiped too much in Ilythiir, that in time, Lolth ("...other dark gods will come, and soon") will come to Realmspace, and that mortal Elves will know what it felt like for the Seldaine to be torn apart (The Descent of the Drow).
-Any motive ascribed to Eilistraee is an artificial construct, manufactured by yourself. Ghaunadaur doesn't need to be mentioned, and it's not relevant that he is or isn't. All that matters is that Eilistraee says that Atorrnash is where the two diplomats can go to secure treaties ("You will find...those who offer alliance in your battle against the Dragons.), as was the mission of Sharlario and Cornaith. Again, only those lawfully vested with such power can draft and enter into treaties. If Ka'Narlist was not lawfully vested with such power, why would Eilistraee have directed Sharlarion and Cornaith to Atorrnash?
And Ka'Narlist was an A-hole, right? On that much we can agree?
-Yes. He was thoroughly evil, of that there is no doubt.
In fact, he was kinda like an Elven Saddam Hussein.
And we all know how religously TOLERANT he was.
In fact, if I not mistaken, nearly every, single Tyrant in history was religously tolerant (especially that German guy... what's his name?) :P
So Ka'Narlist, being the kind-hearted slob he was worshipped Ghaunadar, but didn't mind EVERYONE ELSE (outside his city) worshipping Vhaeraun, and by the same token, Ghaunadar, being the magnanimous deity that he is, was more then happy to allow his servant - Ka'Narlist - to alow the rest of Illythiir society to go on worshipping other gods.
Because... you know... gods don't really want followers... especially evil ones...
-You're vague use of example and allusion does nothing to address the point. Where does it say that the Ilythiiri at this point were a religiously intolerant people? We have specific examples of Vhaeraun, Eilistraee and Ghaunadaur being worshiped by different Dark Elves. Where does it say that Ka'Narlist himself was religiously intolerant, and did not allow others to worship other religions in Atorrnash? Evidence demonstrates that, while he is disdainful of Mbugua's indiginous Wemic religion, he allows him to practice it when attending the births of his creations, such as Malenti.
-Again, the line of thought that, because a leader is a specific religion, his followers must be as well does not hold any water. You want "evil" dictators? Mussolini was a, I am assuming, a Catholic. He allowed Jews to live in Italy until late into World War II, when Germany was failing, and acquiesced to Hitler's insistence that he deport them. Franco, I am also assuming, was a Catholic. Spain was a haven for Jews during World War II.
Just not seeing it AT ALL. Elaine paints a very nice picture of a monster - an evil sorcertor of immense power who has moved away from the more populated dark Elven Lands so that he could conduct all his vile experiments and worship HIS OWN vile god, without being disturbed. Even his 'followers' couldn't stand him - he was no leader, he was a tyrannical dictator who manged - with Lolth's help - to eventually seize power of the Illythiir.
THAT's the picture Elaine painted, and thats the one I see.
-The picture that Elaine painted is indeed of a powerful Archmage who rules over a very magically inclined city, that city being Atorrnash. That is all.
-Nowhere does anything imply that Ka'Narlist moved away from mainstream Ilythiir to continue with his vile experiments, or worship his own deity without being disturbed. Nothing in the text of Evermeet: Island of Elves alludes to this, and as such, as I said earlier, is an artificial construction of your own devising. Throwing out all other sources asides for Evermeet: Island of Elves, nothing states that Atorrnash is on the fringe of Ilythiiri society. Nothing states that Ka'Narlist is a pariah among his own people, and that Atorrnash was created as a "refuge" for him to be able to do what he likes doing without being disturbed by others.
Did he become more powerful later on? Of course... the text of E:IoE says as much... but only after he became Lolth's pet.
-I asked for a citation. Give me a citation that says, specifically, that Ka'Narlist grew in political power only "later on", after he became "Lolth's pet".
I KNOW what I am reading, and you KNOW what you are reading - and we are not getting the same thing AT ALL out of the same chapter. You are insisting on focusing on certain things, while I on others, so we will never agree.
And I only read the very first sentence of your rebuttal, becasue I immediately found falacy and realize now that there's obviously no convincing you.
You are assuming that they made all of those wonderful deals with GREEN ELVES while they were traveling through Dark Elven Lands?
Here's the quote you took from the book, from your own post -
"Yet we have accomplished much this trip," the young Elf said earnestly. "We have been gone from the mountains not quite two years, yet we have established diplomatic ties with no fewer than ten Green Elven settlements..."
Which is it?
If they were in Dark Elven lands for two years, then all deals should have been made with dark Elves. Since the text - that YOU quoted - explicitly says that the deals they made were all done with GREEN Elves, one must assume that they were in the Green Elven lands to do so.
Also, this was before Dark Elves were retconned into Green Elves (or whatever the hell they did).
They were FINISHED traveling through the Green Elven Lands - most likely Keltormir (or whatever the hell that Tethyrian forest was called back then) - and they were just arriving at the edge of Dark Elven teritory - Eilistraee says
that. She tells them about Vhaeraun and how he's a big doody-head, and then, just before she leaves, she does an 'oh, by the way' and tells them that in three days they'll come to the city of Atorrnash, and they should watch their butts there.
Thats it.
The inter-change between the Elves and Ka'Narlist matters not a wit. Ka'Narlist thought much more of himself then he was, and his rise to power (or rather, GREATER power) wasn't until later. Lolth notices him, and then uses him - its that simple.
Anyhow, we keep getting back to that silly "where the hell were they?" argument, which isn't even relevant anymore. I've already conceded the possibility - improbable that it may be - that the Elven capital could very well have been on the edge of Elven Lands. What I haven't conceded is that Ka'Narlist was anything more then a local despot of his city-state, at that time.
And you just compared a murderous, torturing sociopath to John Kennedy and Mike Bloomberg - good play. :D
Are you TRYING to make my case for me? ;)
-This does not seem dismissive of the city. In fact, Eilistraee confirms that Atorrnash is indeed where Sharlario and Cornaith, diplomats, can forge international treaties binding Ilythiir and the settlement that would become Sharlario. Specifically, "You will find...and those who offer alliance in your battle against the Dragons." If the Dark Elves of Atorrnash were not able to forge treaties on behalf of Ilythiir, why would Eilistraee say that they are able to?
Note the words I highlited - since when does the word 'those' translate into 'Illythiir'?
The city was filled with all sorts of evil - and powerful - people, and I will agree that Ka'Narlist was THEIR leader... but he was NOT the King of the Illythiir. It never, ever says that! And I think Eilistaee would have at least mentioned the guy by name - or even his god - if she felt it was important. For all you know, that text there could be referring to some Elminster-calibur mage, not an entire civilization! And thats EXACTLY what it sounds like to me - a few very powerful individuals, not entire armies.
You accuse me of reading into stuff, and yet all of your arguments are based on what you are reading into it, NOT what the text is saying,.
On the whole though, I say chuck the whole argument, since Danilo isn't the most reliable of people, being a chaotic sort, with a known revisionist in the family. ;)
even in Pan's Labyrinth that's noticeable
If Sharlarion lies two years of travel from there perhaps some 1000 miles have been covered by the Moonflowers when they set camp. It's likely they would have encountered quite some settelments of green elves during their travel because they crossed Thearnytaar, Eiellûr and Orishaar territory. The Orishaarran Duskwood would already have a large dark elf population ruled over by green elven lords but the Illythiirian Channathwood, Mysty Vale and Armtar forrest would likely be solely in the hands of dark elven rulers following Ghaunadar and Vhaerun.
In order to fend of dragons the southern dark elves would likely be scattered about the forrests in the usual jungle treevillages but on the shaarran plains and the coasts the dark elves would likely congregate in big warded cities for protection. Mages and rangers would have the most prestige in those settlements so most would be ruled by one capable of battling dragons. I would not tbe surprised if at least five other large dark elven cities where included in Ilythiir territory, all of comparable civilisation level to Attornash (i.e. build with elven magic and proto mythallars, with architecture based of high black basalt spires, a layered city district structure criscrossed by bridges, housing magic defenses capable of disintegrating swaths of dragons).
The experience the dark elves have with carving out territory from dragon controlled lands must have made them expert at finding magic and martial weaknesses of dragons. Exploiting this knowledge gave them a headstart over subserviant sentients under dragon rule in the area so taking the conquested dragon's slaves for themselves must have been common for them. Their reputation during these times must have been quite known, so perchance the Moonflowers had already learned of the wonders of the dark elven cousins from the Orishaarran green elves.
I found it strange Vhaerun would have the largest share of worshippers from southern dark elves as he was banished from Arvandor as well. Didn't Correllon strip his divinty and made him a demon aswell?
A dark elven bastion in a Shaarran plain.
You are assuming that they made all of those wonderful deals with GREEN ELVES while they were traveling through Dark Elven Lands?
-Never did I imply that. Sharlario and his son are on a more-or-less two-year trip around the continent, finding settlements to make diplomatic alliances with. No fewer than ten of those settlements were Wood (“Wild”) Elf settlements. As they are traveling, having made no less than ten diplomatic ties with no less than ten Wood {“Wild”) Elven settlements, they then go to Atorrnash, which is about three days from where ever they are when Eilistraee comes to their campfire. No location is ever given or alluded to when Eilistraee comes to their campsite. The text does not say that Sharlario and Cornaith have been traveling in specifically Wood (“Wild”) Elven lands, or that they were looking specifically for Wood (“Wild”) Elven settlements. Over the course of their two-year journey, they have established diplomatic ties with no fewer than ten Wood (“Wild”) Elven settlements. That is all.
Here's the quote you took from the book, from yur own post -
Which is it?
If they were in Dark Elven lands for two years, then all deals should have been made with dark Elves. Since the text - that YOU quoted - explicitly says that the deals they made were all done with GREEN Elves, one must assume that they were in the Green Elven lands to do so.
-Never did I imply that they were in Dark Elven lands for two years. This is an artificial construction of your own making. As I said earlier, Sharlario and Cornaith are on a two-year (at this point) trip. At this point in their trip, they have made no fewer than 10 new diplomatic ties with different Elven settlements- specifically, ten Wood (“Wild”) Elf settlements. That is all. The text does not say that Sharlario and Cornaith have been traveling in specifically Wood (“Wild”) Elven lands, or that they were looking specifically for Wood (“Wild”) Elven settlements.
Also, this was before Dark Elves were retconned into Green Elves (or whatever the hell they did).
-Yes. As I said earlier, I am not consulting the print version of AGHotR. Evermeet: Island of Elves is the only source that I am consulting on this specific matter.
They were FINISHED traveling through the Green Elven Lands - most likely Keltormir (or whatever the hell that Tethyrian forest was called back then) - and they were just arriving at the edge of Dark Elven teritory - Eilistraee says
that. She tells them about Vhaeraun and how he's a big doody-head, and then, just before she leaves, she does an 'oh, by the way' and tells them that in three days they'll come to the city of Atorrnash, and they should watch their butts there.
Thats it.
-Keltormir does not exist at this point in time. Keltormir was founded around -17,800 DR. This is nearly 7,000 years, give or take, before Keltormir was founded. That doesn’t mean that there weren’t Elves living in the area, however. But, nowhere in the text of Evermeet: Island of Elves does it say that Sharlario and Cornaith just arrived in Dark Elven territory. The text makes no specific mention of their exact location when Eilistraee comes to their campsite and discusses things with them. They are, when she comes to their campsite, three days from Atorrnash. This is all.
The inter-change between the Elves and Ka'Narlist matters not a wit. Ka'Narlist thought much more of himself then he was, and his rise to power (or rather, GREATER power) wasn't until later. Lolth notices him, and then uses him - its that simple.
-I asked you before, and you haven’t answered: Give me an exact citation where it says that Ka’Narlist achieved added political power when Lolth “discovered” him and took him as her plaything, as I have given you exact and specific citations to further bolster my points. Your point- that he didn’t achieve “nation-wide fame and power” hinges on this, and as of yet, it continues to be something of your own creation until you provide me with a citation in text- be it sourcebook or novel- that states that he achieved added political power when Lolth “discovered” him and took him as her plaything.
Anyhow, we keep getting back to that silly "where the hell were they?" argument, which isn't even relevant anymore. I've already conceded the possibility - improbable that it may be - that the Elven capital could very well have been on the edge of Elven Lands. What I haven't conceded is that Ka'Narlist was anything more then a local despot of his city-state, at that time.
-Understood. You have no evidence to support your claim, however. Again, the two diplomats went to Atorrnash to secure diplomatic ties between their homes and the Dark Elves. Only those vested with the ability can make diplomatic alliances between two different nation-states. As I discussed earlier, a diplomat from Greece isn’t going to go to Charles Barkley to ratify a treaty between his country and the United States. The diplomat is going to go to the U.S. Congress, where treaties get ratified. Eilistraee specifically told Sharlario and Cornaith that it would be in Atorrnash that they would be able to find what they were looking for, on their diplomatic venture for the past two years- “and those who offer alliance in your battle against the Dragons”, as Eilistraee says.
-What evidence do you have to support your claim that Ka’Narlist was, as you said, “A bit of an 'outsider'”, in terms of Ilythiir’s internal politics?
And you just compared a murderous, torturing sociopath to John Kennedy and Mike Bloomberg - good play.
Are you TRYING to make my case for me?
-You have yet to answer the point. Again, I will ask: Since when does the leader of a specific locale need to be of the same religious affiliation, ethnic affiliation, etc? A great deal of your claim relies on this notion- that Ka’Narlist worships Ghaunadaur, he cannot be the leader of Ilythiir. As evidence, this notion has about five wisps of straw to stand on. With using the examples of JFK and Mike Bloomberg, I have demonstrated that a leader need not be from the religious/ethnic/racial/etc. majority of a group. With the examples of Mussolini and Franco, I have demonstrated that a leader- one who would be considered evil, by out standards- does not necessarily force his/her religion on others, and, at the same time, allows those of different religious/ethnic/racial stock to exists in the lands ruled over by themselves.
Note the words I highlited - since when does the word 'those' translate into 'Illythiir'?
The city was filled with all sorts of evil - and powerful - people, and I will agree that Ka'Narlist was THEIR leader... but he was NOT the King of the Illythiir. It never, ever says that! And I think Eilistaee would have at least mentioned the guy by name - or even his god - if she felt it was important. For all you know, that text there could be referring to some Elminster-calibur mage, not an entire civilization! And thats EXACTLY what it sounds like to me - a few very powerful individuals, not entire armies.
You accuse me of reading into stuff, and yet all of your arguments are based on what you are reading into it, NOT what the text is saying,.
-As I said earlier, only an individual specifically vested by a state can enter that nation-state into legally binding international law treaty. Sharlario and Cornaith were diplomats. For the past two years or so, they had been traveling Faerûn, entering into treaties with other Elven settlements. At the point that Eilistraee came to the two, they were still diplomats traveling Faerûn, looking for other settlements to enter into diplomatic ties with. Eilistraee specifically pointed the two diplomats in the direction of Atorrnash. Sharlario and Cornaith would, in Atorrnash, be able to sign into international law treaties between their two settlements. Thus, those in Atorrnash would be legally vested by the state of Ilythiir to forge and turn treaties into international law. Atorrnash is mentioned in the text as being an Ilythiiri city- page 112: “But Sharlario’s reproaches were not as sharp as they might have been, for he himself was awestruck by the Ilythiirian city.”
-So, to sum up the meat of everything above:
(1) Give me a citation in Evermeet: Island of Elves where it says that Ka’Narlist achieved added political power to make him the ruler of all of Ilythiir when Lolth “discovered” him and took him as her plaything. Your claim that he was the ruler of Atorrnash, specifically, and did not come into greater political “office” until a later point in time hinges on this concept- a concept that Evermeet: Island of Elves does not substantiate, as after combing through the specific passages concerning Lolth and Ka’Narlist, nothing in the book says or implies anything of the nature that you are describing.
(2) Explain to me why, because Ka’Narlist was a minority worshipper of Ghaunadaur, he could not have been the ruler of a majority of Vhaeraunians. As I offered documented examples of earlier, there have been several rulers over the course of history- some “good”, some “bad”- that served as the leader of some entity in which they were in the minority group, in terms of religion/ethnicity/race/etc.
A dark elven bastion in a Shaarran plain.
-That is indeed a cool picture. I'd imagine more city to be around the tower, but that is, more or less, how I always pictured it. I always saw the towers as smaller, but the text does say that towers soared into the clouds, so...
I found it strange Vhaerun would have the largest share of worshippers from southern dark elves as he was banished from Arvandor as well. Didn't Correllon strip his divinty and made him a demon aswell?
-He was kicked out, but didn't have his divinity taken away, as far as we know.
I am convinced YOU are completely wrong, and no argument of yours has proved otherwise. Nearly everyone of your quotes reinforces my own beliefs, to be perfectly honest. You are interpreting things the way you want to see them.
Heres a little story...
My son and I are going on a trip tommorrrow. We will be leaving by boat, and we want to get to Germany. I would very much like to meet these Germans - distant relatives of mine - and see of I can 'get friendly' with them.
I travel for a few days and I land in London, and there I meet the Queen of England -nice Lady, but a bt old for my tastes.
Now, by your logic, I must have just met the Queen of the Germany as well, because thats where I was headed.
You really don't see how your 'logic' is just your opinion?
At no point does Ka'narlist make any claims to being 'King of the Illythiir'. In fact, Ka'Narlist specifically makes a statement which leads one to believe he wants nothing to do with them -
When asked about Vhaeraun - which Eilistraee has specifically said was THE important god amongst the Illythiir - he scoffs and says he does not worship that god.
So, a GODDESS says Vhaeran is all-important to the Illythiir, and this guy - Ka'Narlist - belittles Vhaeraun right to the faces of the Elves, and yet you still insist he was at that time somehow leader of the people who's god he belittles?
Sorry - it just makes NO sense.
And stop making comparisons to RW modern politics - get medieval, or the very least 3rd world - modern nations are a VERY bad example and do not apply.
King Henry VIII had his entire country switch religions because HE did. THAT is the proper comparison, and as big a prig as Henry was, I gaurantee Ka'Narlist was a whole lot worse.
You want me to go through the entire book a fourth time? I don't think so. I just know it says Lolth notices him, and he was 'washed away' after rising to power. Its fairly obvious Lolth gave him the much-needed boost. I don't need to quote anything, because I'm not trying to convince 'the room' - its just you and me, and we are NEVER going to agree, no matter how much quoting is done. As I have said, nearly every one of your quotes further reinforces what I think it says, so they did you more harm then good as far as I'm concerned.
And I see I'm not the only one who sees Atorrnash as a Dark Elven city, at a time when most dark-Elves where still at a tribal level of existance.
Ka'Narlist was an aberration, not their King. If he was, he would have said he was - the guy had enough ego for it. Instead he chooses to mock the Illythiiri god.
And I noticed the wordage you used above - "they travelled around Faerûn" before coming to Atorrnash.
Once again - thats just you reading into things. "Travelled around" my arse - now you even seem to know their itinerary!
As far as the book goes, it says they travelled from point 'A' to point'B', and any other excursions you are assuming exist purely in your imagination. When I read that, I draw a straight line between two points, with perhaps some mild variance for slight exploration and ambassadorial considerations. The very first Dark Elven settlement they came to was Attornash - that much I think we can agree on. That indicates to me that the rest of the Dark Elves - the Ilythiir Eilistraee was talking about - lie beyond that first settlement.
Also, this was all at a time long before the Dark Elves were involved in the Crown Wars - the first of which taking place far from Illythiir lands and involving only non-Dark Elves. There really were no vast Empires or even true kingdoms back then - they didn't form until later.
By all accounts in the GhotR and E:IoE, the time period in which Moonflower arrived and travelled about was in the VERY early years of the Elven arrival, and at that time the Green and Dark Elves were still very primitive an un-organized.
You are claiming that Ka'Narlist was a King, long before there even were such things amongst the Elven peoples of Faerûn. This was an extemely early time period- Ka'Narlist would HAVE TO HAVE become King at a much later date, after Kingdoms were formed.
All he had was the first dark Elven city, which doesn't amount to him being much more then a Mayor.
Those 'offers of alliances' were a reference to Ka'narlist himself, and his personal power-base, NOT the Illythiir people as a whole.
If that erroneous entry was never placed in that thrice-damned GHotR, I would completely denying Ka'Narlist was EVER anything more then a petty tyrant of an insignificant citystate, and was living on the outskirts of the Illythiir lands.
At least you can take solace in the fact that the designers are as a big a fans of Elaine's lore as you are.
At no point does Ka'narlist make any claims to being 'King of the Illythiir'. In fact, Ka'Narlist specifically makes a statement which leads one to believe he wants nothing to do with them -
When asked about Vhaeraun - which Eilistraee has specifically said was THE important god amongst the Illythiir - he scoffs and says he does not worship that god.
So, a GODDESS says Vhaeran is all-important to the Illythiir, and this guy - Ka'Narlist - belittles Vhaeraun right to the faces of the Elves, and yet you still insist he was at that time somehow leader of the people who's god he belittles?
Sorry - it just makes NO sense.
-No, he does not make any statements to this effect. He doesn't actually refer to himself during his conversation with the two as "Ka'Narlist", either. Does this mean he is not Ka'Narlist?
-Again, and I'll keep on beating on it over and over and over and over: Since when does the leader of a group of people have to be in the majority group? Do leaders in the minority group, in terms of religion, or ethnicity, or anything else not exist? You continue to cite this as proof to what you are claiming, when it is indicative of nothing, or rather, not a "smoking gun" to prove your point. As I cited various examples, numerous rulers have come to power over certain people and in certain places, where they, themselves are in the religious/ethnic/etc. minority.
And stop making comparisons to RW modern politics - get medieval, or the very least 3rd world - modern nations are a VERY bad example and do not apply.
King Henry VIII had his entire country switch religions because HE did. THAT is the proper comparison, and as big a prig as Henry was, I gaurantee Ka'Narlist was a whole lot worse.
-Provide with me, then, a citation where Ka'Narlist is shown as someone who takes religion importantly, and would mandate his people follow the same religion as he. I, on the other hand, have already made a citation that demonstrates Ka'Narlist as allowing others to follow the religions and customs of their choice, that he, himself, does not follow. "secrets of Blood, Spirits of the Sea" specifically highlights Mbugua performing Wemic shamistic rituals, and Ka'Narlist, while mocking and scornful, allows it. Does it not follow, then, that he can be ultimately scornful and disdainful of other religions- like Vhaeraun- but create no prohibitions against following them/adhering to them/etc?
You want me to go through the entire book a fourth time? I don't think so. I just know it says Lolth notices him, and he was 'washed away' after rising to power. Its fairly obvious Lolth gave him the much-needed boost. I don't need to quote anything, because I'm not trying to convince 'the room' - its just you and me, and we are NEVER going to agree, no matter how much quoting is done. As I have said, nearly every one of your quotes further reinforces what I think it says, so they did you more harm then good as far as I'm concerned.
-You can't provide the citation. Until you can provide a citation, this is nothing more than something that you are making up and wanting to believe, that has no grounds whatsoever in the debate at hand here. On the other hand, if you can provide the citation, it'll give your argument more credence. I am 100% certain, however, that you will not be able to provide said citation however, because, as I said, I went through the relevant passages, looking for something that resembles your claim. And, I found nothing. Such a passage does not exist.
Ka'Narlist was an aberration, not their King. If he was, he would have said he was - the guy had enough ego for it. Instead he chooses to mock the Illythiiri god.
-Provide me a citation that demonstrates that he was an aberration to the Ilythiiri people. What does being a worshiper of Ghaunadaur have to do with anything? Since when has a religious minority been barred from being able to rule over a group that would be considered the religious majority?
And I noticed the wordage you used above - "they travelled around Faerûn" before coming to Atorrnash.
Once again - thats just you reading into things. "Travelled around" my arse - now you even seem to know their itinerary!
-This is a strawman argument. The passage says that Sharlario and Cornaith had been traveling (that is when the word 'trip' is applied in a present-progressive conjugation) for about two years. Nowhere in my responses have I claimed to know where Sharlario and Cornaith went and where they didn't go.
As far as the book goes, it says they travelled from point 'A' to point'B', and any other excursions you are assuming exist purely in your imagination. When I read that, I draw a straight line between two points, with perhaps some mild variance for slight exploration and ambassadorial considerations. The very first Dark Elven settlement they came to was Attornash - that much I think we can agree on. That indicates to me that the rest of the Dark Elves - the Ilythiir Eilistraee was talking about - lie beyond that first settlement.
-The text states that the two have made diplomatic ties with no less than ten Wood ("Wild") Elven settlements on their trip. Going from a single point, to another single point, it seems very faulty that ten settlements would be encountered. Rather, I see the two as coming upon ten separate points- 'Point A', 'Point B', 'Point C', 'Point D', and so on.
-Also, concerning the traveling, things don't necessarily line up, either. From the area where Sharlarion was roughly to where Ilythiir was roughly was somewhere in the basic neighborhood of 2,000 miles. Given that they were traveling for about two years, that'd mean that they traveled about 3 miles (2.739...) each day. That doesn't seem terribly efficient, or realistic. Note, that this part is my own calculation and thinking, and is only derived from measurements on the map, and the text in the book. Maybe going 3 miles each day was realistic, given that we know virtually nothing about Sharlarion. I'd doubt that, though.
-That aside, yes Atorrnash was the first Dark Elven settlement that the pair came across. Does this mean that Atorrnash was unlike "the Ilythiir Eilistraee was talking about"? I don't see how it can, given the relative ambiguity and brevity of Eilistraee's conversation, coupled with what little we know of Ilythiir.
Also, this was all at a time long before the Dark Elves were involved in the Crown Wars - the first of which taking place far from Illythiir lands and involving only non-Dark Elves. There really were no vast Empires or even true kingdoms back then - they didn't form until later.
-Ilythiir was founded, according to AGHotR, in -27,000 DR (pg. 8). Slightly before, and slightly after the Sundering (-24,000 DR), a whole bunch of Elven empires and kingdoms and whatnot were also founded: Aryvandaar, Shantel Othreier, Illefarn, and others.
By all accounts in the GhotR and E:IoE, the time period in which Moonflower arrived and travelled about was in the VERY early years of the Elven arrival, and at that time the Green and Dark Elves were still very primitive an un-organized.
-The first Dark Elves and Wood ("Wild") Elves arrived in Realmspace in -27,000 DR. The survivors of Tintageer first encountered the Dark Elves in -25,100 DR. That's about 2,000 years for the Dark Elves to get settled down on Faerûn- a time span that is fairly significant, even to long-lived Elves. To claim that, at this time, the Dark Elves were very primitive is not supported in the text of Evermeet: Island of Elves, or in AGHotR. Neither is it said that they are "an advanced" culture. That the Ilythiiri were able to carve out a realm within the Dragon Baronies that existed at the time, and to the extent that the Dragons did not see fit to bother them is telling, however. If Atorrnash was the only place where the Dragons "feared", with the rest of Ilythiir being primitive as you say, why did the rest of Ilythiir exist?
You are claiming that Ka'Narlist was a King, long before there even were such things amongst the Elven peoples of Faerûn. This was an extemely early time period- Ka'Narlist would HAVE TO HAVE become King at a much later date, after Kingdoms were formed.
-This is factually untrue. Durothil, who was the leader of the survivors of Tintageer was a prince- Prince Durothil. This demonstrates that such titles existed as early as at least -25,400 DR.
All he had was the first dark Elven city, which doesn't amount to him being much more then a Mayor.
-Nothing implicitly states that Atorrnash was the first Dark Elven city.
Those 'offers of alliances' were a reference to Ka'narlist himself, and his personal power-base, NOT the Illythiir people as a whole.
-As mentioned, in order for diplomatic relations between two governments to happen, individuals need to be vested with the ability to actually make such international laws (this is all that treaties are). In other words, I cannot go to Cuba, talk to Elian Gonzales, and enter the United States into a treaty with Cuba. Presumably, Eilistraee knew their intent, as she wouldn't have been able to say what she did otherwise. If Atorrnash was not a place where Sharlario and Cornaith could enlist diplomatic help in dealing with the problems that were plaguing them since coming to Realmspace- primarily Dragons- why would Eilistraee send them there, as opposed to whatever the Ilythiiri capital was at the time, if Atorrnash was not the capital? Talking to Ka'Narlist, in that case, would be as pointless as me talking to Elian Gonzales.
If that erroneous enry was never placed in that thrice-damned GHotR, I would completely denying Ka'Narlist was EVER anything more then a petty tyrant of an insignificant citystate, and was living on the outskirts of the Illythiir lands.
-A great deal of the source information on the matter comes not from AGHotR, as I have stated numerous times before, but rather, from Evermeet: Island of Elves itself.
(I quote part to help me address that specific point, and to keep my posts "on-topic" for whatever part of your responses that I am addressing, so I don't lose my train of thought.)
whoa Elaine posted here....
I really enjoyed reading this thread, but it made me a bit homesick.
-I'm happy that you enjoyed our head-butting and rambling. That made me smile.
-I'll need to change the title of the thread in honor of that.
-I'm happy that you enjoyed our head-butting and rambling. That made me smile.
-I'll need to change the title of the thread in honor of that.
Heh. Thanks. I think.
You're not going to 'settle it'?
Or are you enjoying this too much? :D
BTW, your 'cameo' just made my day... NO... my month.
And LK - Strawman?
You claim Durothil was Prince...yeah... on another plane of existance!
I think someone needs to note the 'straws' in his own hands... :P
Prince of what? The dozen or so people he brought with him?
Oh YEAH... that is just such an awesome Kingdom right there.
I guess by your logic, I'd be a friggin' Emperor.
Anyhow - read entry -245000 DR - you are conveniently omitting any facts which don't corroborate your own theories. What are you? In Law Enforcment?
Attornash was THE greatest city in Faerûn (Merrouroboros actually) - it was a CITY, and it was also obviously one of kind, since the Gold and Moon Elves felt the need to 'copy' it.
That blows your "there were other cities" argument right out of the water.
Now lets look at -25,100 DR, shall we.?
It was rather hard to find that particular entry, what, with the hundreds and HUNDREDS of Elven Kingdoms listed before it...
NOT!!!
ALL the kingdoms you mentioned were formed WELL after Shalario visited Mayor Ka'Narlist in his 'city' - and I use the term city loosley, since it was the first, a settlement of only a thousand people could have been considered a city at that time. 'Great Civilizations' did not occur until "The First Flowering", some 1100 years after Sharlario met Ka'Narlist, and a good 1400 years after the (High) Elven arrival!
Aryvandaar - whch you used in your rebuttal - was formed -23,9000, and is the very first 'nation' of Elves recorded.
Was Ka'Narlist a king? Yes, yes he was... the GHotR says so... given in a MUCH later date.
Hmmmmm.... I can't seem to find that exact reference... but I found something else in -27,000...
Hmmmm.... most peculiar. The GHotR appears to be riddled with errors.
And to prove THAT point, there is a reference to 'The Underdark', a good 16,200 years before there even was an Underdark.
So... I must concede the point, but only due to an erroneous entry in the GHotR, which doesn't appear to be based on Elaine's novel at all. The only thing you've managed to accomplish here is my no longer recommending that source to anyone.
Which deprives Wizbro of income, which I consider a win either way.
So... I must concede the point, but only due to an erroneous entry in the GHotR, which doesn't appear to be based on Elaine's novel at all. The only thing you've managed to accomplish here is my no longer recommending that source to anyone.
You no longer recommend the Grand History based on a single entry you happen to disagree with? Wow.
You no longer recommend the Grand History based on a single entry you happen to disagree with? Wow.
C'mon Brian. I would say welcome to the FR boards but you should know better ;).
Funny thread even though I know nothing about elves except the little I read in Cunninghams novels.
And LK - Strawman?
-Yes. You were claiming that I was claiming to have known the travel itinerary of Sharlario and Cornaith. I never said anything of the sort. This is a strawman argument- build a false representation of someone else' views only to knock them down, in an attempt to bolster their own claims.
You claim Durothil was Prince...yeah... on another plane of existance!
...
Prince of what? The dozen or so people he brought with him?
Oh YEAH... that is just such an awesome Kingdom right there.
I guess by your logic, I'd be a friggin' Emperor.
-Of how many, or of who does not matter. Your claim was: "You are claiming that Ka'Narlist was a King, long before there even were such things amongst the Elven peoples of Faerûn...?" This claim is factually untrue. Durothil was a prince among the survivors of Tintageer. This demonstrates that such titles existed among Elves.
Anyhow - read entry -245000 DR - you are conveniently omitting any facts which don't corroborate your own theories. What are you? In Law Enforcment?
-The entry: "Both Sun and Moon Elf communities build great cities to rival the magnificence of ancient Atorrnash. The Sun Elf city of Occidian is heralded as the center of Elven music and dance, while the Moon Elf city of Sharlarion is unrivaled as the crossroads of trade and commerce." This does not negate anything I have said up to this point. How is it supposed to?
Attornash was THE greatest city in Faerûn (Merrouroboros actually) - it was a CITY, and it was also obviously one of kind, since the Gold and Moon Elves felt the need to 'copy' it.
That blows your "there were other cities" argument right out of the water.
-No it doesn't. Atorrnash was a city that was described as magnificent. And, this demonstrates that no other cities existed within the boundaries of the Ilythiiri Empire at the time how?
Now lets look at -25,100 DR, shall we.?
It was rather hard to find that particular entry, what, with the hundreds and HUNDREDS of Elven Kingdoms listed before it...
NOT!!!
-How is the entry "Sharlario Moonflower and his son Cornaith visit the Dark Elf city of Aotrrnash in the south" supposed to refute anything I have said?
ALL the kingdoms you mentioned were formed WELL after Shalario visited Mayor Ka'Narlist in his 'city' - and I use the term city loosley, since it was the first, a settlement of only a thousand people could have been considered a city at that time. 'Great Civilizations' did not occur until "The First Flowering", some 1100 years after Sharlario met Ka'Narlist, and a good 1400 years after the (High) Elven arrival!
Aryvandaar - whch you used in your rebuttal - was formed -23,9000, and is the very first 'nation' of Elves recorded.
-Your claim was: "...this was all at a time long before the Dark Elves were involved in the Crown Wars - the first of which taking place far from Illythiir lands and involving only non-Dark Elves. There really were no vast Empires or even true kingdoms back then - they didn't form until later." Various Elven empires existed long before the Crown Wars, and I gave a brief but far incomplete listing, demonstrating that various Elven empires and/or kingdoms existed during this time period.
Was Ka'Narlist a king? Yes, yes he was... the GHotR says so... given in a MUCH later date.
-Cite me the passage that states that Ka'Narlist was empowered by Lolth at a point after she learned of Realmspace, either in AGHotR or Evermeet: Island of Elves that collaborates what you are claiming. Evermeet: Island of Elves does not, as I already mentioned, and AGHotR does not mention Ka'Narlist by name (which, mind you, is indicative of nothing as I know you will claim, as scores of world leaders and "movers and shakers" are unmentioned in AGHotR), and as such, does not say anywhere that he became a "king" at a later date. There is no verifiable support for your claims.
Hmmmmm.... I can't seem to find that exact reference... but I found something else in -27,000...
Hmmmm.... most peculiar. The GHotR appears to be riddled with errors.
And to prove THAT point, there is a reference to 'The Underdark', a good 16,200 years before there even was an Underdark.
-Yes, AGHotR has many errors, from the minor and humorous (such as Shardrow, instead of Starbrow), to the (I think) egregious- the "incorrect" date for the Sundering, for example. You cannot claim to be correct, and that "everybody else" just got it wrong, especially with very little evidence elsewhere to collaborate what is being said. That's just not logical.
So... I must concede the point, but only due to an erroneous entry in the GHotR, which doesn't appear to be based on Elaine's novel at all. The only thing you've managed to accomplish here is my no longer recommending that source to anyone.
-Do not claim a source to be erroneous when there exist no other concrete facts and/or hypothesizes to demonstrates as to why it is wrong. You have still yet to answer two of the baseline claims that your opinions hinge on. Once these are answered with citations to support them, I will consider your claims to have more room to float on their own, or however that saying goes:
A citation in Evermeet: Island of Elves (or anywhere else for that matter) where it says that Ka’Narlist achieved added political power to make him the ruler of all of Ilythiir when Lolth “discovered” him and an explanation as to why, because Ka’Narlist was a minority worshiper of Ghaunadaur, he could not have been the ruler of a majority of Vhaeraunians.
Heh. Thanks. I think.
-It's a good thing, yes. ;)
-If only there were more me's and more Markus' on the forum.
You no longer recommend the Grand History based on a single entry you happen to disagree with? Wow.
What Rauric said... really, you should be suprised it hasn't happened much, much sooner considering the last few pages. :P ;)
Of course, I'm fairly certain at this point that that was included as a 'dig' to spite FR fans, by someone in charge. Unless that book received ZERO editting, there is no way anyone looking through it did not catch that.
While the others I find merely... amusing... :D
Anyhow, I have a hard time recommending anything with Drizzt on the cover.
Just messin' with you Brian - I'm sure everyone tat plans on buying that book has already done so.
In fact, I need a new copy... mine is nasty looking now, especially since I cut all that useless filler in the middle out (I really hate geneologies). I got tired of thumbing past it every time I needed to trace a chain of events.
But getting back to the topic - it would have been nice for Elaine to have told us what SHE had meant by that chapter, since two different people reading the exact same thing are jumping to completely different conclusions.
I still do not see Ka'Narlist being anything more then what Elaine portrayed him as - the egotistical, impious leader of an Dark Elven City, who just happens to have been a very powerful Mage, and caught the attentions of Lolth.
Because, ya know... thats ALL that chapter says. ;)
Anything other then that, you and I are both reading into it.
I still can't find any direct mention of Ka'Narlist (after that first one) in the GHotR.. What gives? I could have sworn it was in there, from an earlier 'discussion' we had.
I figured it would be in the 'Sundering' entry, or the Vingette, but no dice.
Maybe I cut that out too.
I disagree with many of things in the GhotR - for instance, I'm fairly sure the dragon Kisonraathiisar looked nothing at all like a Warforged. :P
-You'd be surprised. Dragons can do all that Alter Shape stuff, so...Just like Storm when she was investigating those Thayvian Bombards.
But getting back to the topic - it would have been nice for Elaine to have told us what SHE had meant by that chapter, since two different people reading the exact same thing are jumping to completely different conclusions.
-When I saw she posted, I was like:
:lightbulb 
-Then, when I saw she didn't say anythign specific, I was like:
-I understand and don't begrudge why she doesn't, though. I wonder what "attracted" her here, to this thread, though. Is she still here? Can she answer? Do we have to perform a Sending?
I still do not see Ka'Narlist being anything more then what Elaine portrayed him as - the egotistical, impious leader of an Dark Elven City, who just happens to have been a very powerful Mage, and caught the attentions of Lolth.
Because, ya know... thats ALL that chapter says. ;)
-Correct. Reading between the lines, opens so much more, however.
-So, I guess that's the end of that, huh? It was fun while it lasted. Why can't, like I said, there be two of me and two of you, so that we have four people to have in-depth debates like this? Why does it, invariably, always seem that it's always just me and you willing to...sink this low (I guess that's an apt term)?
-I'm happy that you enjoyed our head-butting and rambling. That made me smile.
-I'll need to change the title of the thread in honor of that.
Now the title is even more of a mouthful.
I would join the debate, but this isn't my area of expertise, so...
Now the title is even more of a mouthful.
-I ran out of room. The title should read:
"The Epic Ancient Elven Empires Argument Thread That Elaine Cunningham Enjoyed Reading"
-I ran out of room. The title should read:
"The Epic Ancient Elven Empires Argument Thread That Elaine Cunningham Enjoyed Reading"
Then be more concise. The economy is in ruins and you're wasting verbage at the expense of us all.
Where the hell do I find a sustainable post around here??!!
I suppose the Threnody dark elves could have fled from Threnody to Faerie, and from there to Faerûn, but I had always thought they just migrated by spell or gate directly from Threnody.
Those dark elves might have arrived even further back than Ka'Narlist's group. Perhaps they are ancestors of the Zakharan desert elves or possibly Miyeritar.
Then be more concise. The economy is in ruins and you're wasting verbage at the expense of us all.
Where the hell do I find a sustainable post around here??!!
Sustainable post! Mwa ha ha!
This is good stuff.
::munches popcorn::
-
-When I saw she posted, I was like:
-Then, when I saw she didn't say anythign specific, I was like:
When I read this, I was like
-I understand and don't begrudge why she doesn't, though. I wonder what "attracted" her here, to this thread, though. Is she still here? Can she answer? Do we have to perform a Sending?
Not sure why I stopped by the wizards site yesterday. I must have heard the faint echos of this:
And now, I think we've had entirely too much fun with emoticons.
I skimmed this thread but didn't read it all of it closely enough to comment in any detail. Also, it has been quite a while since I walked among the elves of Faerun. Many things have changed since then, and I don't want to step on anyone else's territory. My opinions may not reflect the current zeitgeist at WotC. As for the Grand History, I look forward to reading it but have not yet had a chance to do so.
Still want to thank you for introducing us to Ka'Arnalist, the first Ilythiirian NPC villain and my favorite.
Do we know that all dark elves came from Faerie?
-No, we do not. AGHotR only states that in-27,000 DR, Dark Elves from Faerie arrived. It doesn't support or deny that Dark Elves from other places came to Realmspace. That Dark Elves from other places might have migrated to Realmspace is tangential to the specific points of the argument, however.
I skimmed this thread but didn't read it all of it closely enough to comment in any detail. Also, it has been quite a while since I walked among the elves of Faerun. Many things have changed since then, and I don't want to step on anyone else's territory. My opinions may not reflect the current zeitgeist at WotC. As for the Grand History, I look forward to reading it but have not yet had a chance to do so.
-Hey, like I said, I don't begrudge you, and I am sure that Markus, as well as everyone else feels the same. It's just nice to see you here.
My opinions may not reflect the current zeitgeist at WotC.
You used the word 'Zeitgeist'!!! Will you marry me?
Does THAT answer your question, LK? ;)
And Elaine, you realy SHOULD read the GHotR - a lot of what you did for the Realms is in there, and Brian did a magnificent job collecting all that lore together in one place.
Maybe your semi-devine? You know, deities can hear when their names are mentioned. :D
I still detest that -27,000 entry, and also that I 'lost' the discussion because of information that I personally found (both the capital thing, and the fact that at least one true 'nation' existed at that time).
I guess I can take solace in the fact that I beat myself. :P
Also, a lot of good came out of that - I noticed a couple of interesting things I hadn't noted before.
-I ran out of room. The title should read:
"The Epic Ancient Elven Empires Argument Thread That Elaine Cunningham Enjoyed Reading"
LOL, OK.
By the way, everyone: I officially declare that I agree with everything Lord Karsus has said so far for reasons known well to both of us, and some of you.;) :D
Does THAT answer your question, LK? ;)
-I didn't ask any questions. What questions?
Maybe your semi-devine? You know, deities can hear when their names are mentioned. :D
-Or a Chosen. Elaine Cunningham, former Chosen of TSR (a cousin of Tyr), a deity who slain and subsumed by a cabal of Wizards living on the coastlines.
Also, a lot of good came out of that - I noticed a couple of interesting things I hadn't noted before.
-Like?
That he should just shut his yap before proving himself wrong and keep on going, hoping you didn't notice the problem... :D
-Nah, it's fun debating and arguing with Markus. Like I said, I wish there more more people like him on and me on the boards, willing to argue and debate over every little minuscule detail until everyone is out of breath. That's the stuff that makes the boards worth coming to- for those participating, and for those watching, to point and laugh and stuff at the two idiots fighting passionately, to the last little crumb, over nonsensical nonsense, ultimately.
No worries. Just passing through.
-Don't pass though. Stay.
-We've got cookies. I'll make you matzoh ball soup. You can ask my girlfriend, it's good. It's worth staying for!
I also demand Kasha and Pickeled Herring - impress me with your cultural cuisine, my friend.
-I didn't ask any questions. What questions?
Not really a question, just a comment (which I now can no longer find :thinks
about me enjoying Elaine's participation as well.-Like?
Well, I found a few Dark-Elven 'clan names' in GK's Vingette about the Descent of the Drow, not to mention the fact that the Illefarn Dark Elves were known as Iyilitar. Nothing profound, but intersting none-the-less. Also there was something about Faerie, but now I can't find it again - something was worded a certain way which could possibly change it's meaning... have to look for that one again. I get 'something new' out of it each time I read the GHotR - it really is wonderful.
That he should just shut his yap before proving himself wrong and keep on going, hoping you didn't notice the problem... :D
Nope.
I said this here before, but I haven't said it in a LONG time -
I'd rather be proven wrong - being 'right' doesn't teach me a thing. I'm here to LEARN about FR, not be a mule-headed arse.
Point I suppose... just isn't as much fun without Dan to get aggravated at the anti-elf sentiments though.
Very true... its so much harder to push LK's 'buttons' - he has much better control of his emotions.
Pay no mind to JD - he has embraced his insanity, and it works for him. :D
No worries. Just passing through.
Don't go! The party's just gettin' started.
Besides, you haven't accepted my proposal yet.
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You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
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Please return discussion to the topic of the thread, or it may need to be closed.
I'm doing everything I can to stay polite and on topic, CENSORED!!
---
Elaine, please stick around. WE want to hear from you. :D
Elaine, please stick around. WE want to hear from you. :D
That's very kind, JD. But I'm getting ready to take a deep breath and dive into a couple of projects, and won't be coming up for air, much less spending time online anywhere, for quite a while.
This discussion of Evermeet and early elven history really did make me homesick for Faerun. Maybe someday I'll find my way back across the mists of time. Until then, however, I really don't have anything new and interesting to add to the discussion. But carry on, and enjoy!
Really, it means a lot to know that people still read and remember Evermeet.
Sweet water, light laughter,
ec
I LOVE Matzoh Soup! I am SO coming over to your house for dinner some night (gee.... that was little rude...)!Very true... its so much harder to push LK's 'buttons' - he has much better control of his emotions.
-"There is no emotion, there is peace...There is no passion, there is serenity." As much as I dislike the Jedi, it's a good mantra they've got.I thought LK was the mod for this part of the forum.
-I have no power whatsoever. If anyone ever finds out, though, there will be forum-wide panic.Really, it means a lot to know that people still read and remember Evermeet.
-It's still up there in the top three MUST-READ Forgotten Realms books.
-Don't be a stranger.
That's very kind, JD. But I'm getting ready to take a deep breath and dive into a couple of projects, and won't be coming up for air, much less spending time online anywhere, for quite a while.
This discussion of Evermeet and early elven history really did make me homesick for Faerun. Maybe someday I'll find my way back across the mists of time. Until then, however, I really don't have anything new and interesting to add to the discussion. But carry on, and enjoy!
Really, it means a lot to know that people still read and remember Evermeet.
Sweet water, light laughter,
ec
Why you…!
Why…!
How…!
Bejebuz take you to Chucky Cheese, you got me all CENSORED emotional!!!
...
-While doing research (while this isn't anything that was particularly ever something that was hidden), it "hit me" that, while Aryvandaar ultimately went past a line that should not have been passed, in consorting with Demons and all of that, Coronal Vyshaan had extremely valid reasons for initiating the First Crown War: Miyeritar split from Aryvandaar and established itself as its own state. In a similar vein, the United States declared war on the Confederate States during the Civil War, as a means to preserve the Union. Would Aryvandaar automatically be in the wrong for attempting to preserve its integrity? Note that the coronal engaged in years of diplomacy that, ultimately, proved fruitless. It demonstrates, however, that he tried to avoid conflict. After wards, he began employing other means to avoid an all-out conflict, such as messing with Miyeritar's trade, but again, that eventually bore no fruit either.
Quit trying to justify the actions of the elves. We all know it's because they're bloodthirsty predators. "Diplomacy" was just an attempt to lull the others into letting their guard. Clever for a species whose brains are the size of walnuts...:D
One could just as easily cite the Revolutionary War, and say that Aryvandaar was justified in the same sense that Britain was...
-Even being on the "winning side", there is no doubt that the British had a legitimate right to attempt to forcibly take back what the American Revolutionaries were claiming as theirs. On one side, the defecting side, the right to self-determination can be cited, and on the other side, the right to self-preservation can be cited.
Though I don't recall ever seeing anything that implied secession, simply moving and creating a society on the borders or Aryvandaar by a minority group. It was founded out of dissatisfaction with the rule of the gold elves, not taken out of territories claimed by them, as that would have been counterproductive.
So no, I wouldn't say that gave the Coronal any justification... he was trying to reclaim people who were under his empire's rule millenia beforehand, not trying to reclaim land that had been taken from his Realm. It was never a part of Aryvandaar in the first place, so the comparison to the American Civil War rather falls apart on that point alone.
-Coronal Ivósaar Vyshaan cited that, being that Miyeritar was formed by Elves who were unlawfully splintering away from Aryvandaar, that the territory that was administered to as the sovereign nation of Miyeritar was, in reality, still under the administration of Aryvandaar, being that they did not recognize the validity of Miyeritar's claims of independence. Miyeritar was (from his point of view) still part of Aryvandaar, and their grab of territory was adding to the greater total that Aryvandaar controlled. Ultimatley, however, Aryvandaar could have only one 'legal' ruler, that person being Coronal Ivósaar Vyshaan, and as such, those claiming to head Miyeritar, which was not recognized as an independent entity, needed to step down, because the nation could have only 1 ruler/governing body.
-All in all, it's a claim that was used both successfully and unsuccessfully by China over the centuries, concerning other South Asian nations. What the heck is it called? I can't remember. Suzerainty, I think?
Sovereignity issues I'd call it. I'd also call the claim BS, as it implies crown ownership of its subjects, which isn't exactly a common aspect of the elven mindset as its been described to us. While it works for humans, especially a true feudal society, because lets face it, the crown did own you ultimately, its specious at best for elves.
-Well, sure it does. Look at Evermeet, with King Zaor and Queen Amlauril (more specifically, the queen, since Zaor's been dead for a long time). As the saying goes, "What [Amlauril] wants, [Amlauril] gets." I wouldn't say that she would claim 'ownership' over her subjects, but she certainly exercises power over them, and given how they like her, they accept her status as ruler. I'd imagine, in any place where a ruler is genuinely liked, that'd be how things go.
Happy wife = penniless husband. :D
Went ahead and fixed that for ya. :P
Oh my gosh, not only do I remember Evermeet... I consider your books with Liriel Baenre as definitive sources for my Realms game, both for regions and overall flavor. I've collected every book of yours with Arilyn and Danilo that I can find, all wonderful! And I also very much enjoyed your Halruaa series, which was never destroyed in my game.
Apologies for the off-topic gushy praise, but any Realms book you'd write in the future would be an instant buy for me.
Oh yeah, and anything you would write about elves, Elaine.
On the topic: I'd love to see something from the Crown Wars.
Amlauril is seen as the Queen of all elves (as the wonderful scene from Evermeet shows).
I'd say both the Vyshaan and Illythiiri used sweet words to whiten themselves (rhetorically, of course) when they crossed the lines. I mean, Malkizid and Wendonai.
-Well, sure it does. Look at Evermeet, with King Zaor and Queen Amlauril (more specifically, the queen, since Zaor's been dead for a long time). As the saying goes, "What [Amlauril] wants, [Amlauril] gets." I wouldn't say that she would claim 'ownership' over her subjects, but she certainly exercises power over them, and given how they like her, they accept her status as ruler. I'd imagine, in any place where a ruler is genuinely liked, that'd be how things go.
Its also a very different political situation. As it stands, Amlauril is the only game in town in terms of Coronal (prior to MD being retaken anyway), so her situation is greatly different from the situation that existed during the days of Aryvandaar and Miyeritar, where sovereignity over the elven people was much more dispersed and less consolidated. Most of Aryvandaars claims seemed to boil down to "you're not a gold elf, and so are unworthy of a throne", to which most folks said "bag that goldy, come and get some!"... or something to that effect. ;)
Its also a very different political situation. As it stands, Amlauril is the only game in town in terms of Coronal (prior to MD being retaken anyway), so her situation is greatly different from the situation that existed during the days of Aryvandaar and Miyeritar, where sovereignity over the elven people was much more dispersed and less consolidated. Most of Aryvandaars claims seemed to boil down to "you're not a gold elf, and so are unworthy of a throne", to which most folks said "bag that goldy, come and get some!"... or something to that effect. ;)
-I am just talking about the political situation on Evermeet, where she is the sole sovereign of the nation, not just in general, where she has no temporal power, per se, but is viewed as a spiritual leader across the board.
P.S. Would you recommend reading the book even if I generally hate elves and their whole "thing"?
Haven't read Evermeet. Does that make me a heathen in church(church being this thread)?
P.S. Would you recommend reading the book even if I generally hate elves and their whole "thing"?
-Yes on both counts. Even if you don't generally like Elves, there's a lot of important and pivotal history in the book. It spans 25,000+ years, over the course of the entire book.
As to Amlaruil, its still a lot different of a situation. The whole island thing, the limited amount of space, there not being any land she doesn't actually lay claim to on it... Aryvandaar and Miyeritar were a very different set of circumstances, where neither of those factors was true.
And Danilo didn't put any of his bawdy songs in it, so you're safe. :P
Haven't read Evermeet. Does that make me a heathen in church(church being this thread)?
P.S. Would you recommend reading the book even if I generally hate elves and their whole "thing"?
I read it, and I hate Elves.:P
It lets you know how the Elves operate.
I found my self rooting for Malar, the Dragons, and Lolth many times in that novel.
Yes I knew that they would lose to those Munchkins.
I just adore the Elf Eater.
The only good Elf is a Dead elf!;)
All kidding aside, it is a good novel.
I read it, and I hate Elves.:P
It lets you know how the Elves operate.
Know thy enemies, eh? ;)
I haven't read it either. Nor would I, as its apocryphal at best, given its source in-novel as Danilo Thann. Hard to think of a more unreliable narrator really... :P
-We've yet to come across instances where canon has diverged from what was put in the book. Yes, you're right, he is an unreliable narrator, and technically, nothing that's in the book is necessarily true, but the designers have yet to contradict anything in the book. If anything, events and such used in the books have been "made official" via concrete dating in later sourcebooks. So, I'm just saying...;)
Anyhow... Anything I had to say was already said by Stigger (regarding LK's Arvyaandar reasoning). It was MUCH more like the American Revolution then the Civil War.
They weren't already a part of it... they left to be free from it... and it followed them. Not allowing others the freedom to express themselves isn't very 'Elven', IMHO.
However, since Stigger knocked Elaine, I must challenge him to a duel to defend her honor! :fight!:
However, since Stigger knocked Elaine, I must challenge him to a duel to defend her honor! :fight!:
-His luminosity addles his brain from time to time. Stuff happens.
Now, the question is, is it due to people buying alot of them(so one can expect it to be available soon again) or do they not bother to order more?
Guess I'll check back in a week or so.
Though if you want to duel still, I'm up for wet halflings carrying rancid fish for the slings at 80 paces.
So I checked my online book stores where there is usually a chance one can find FR books and found it on one of them. However, it was out of stock.
Now, the question is, is it due to people buying alot of them(so one can expect it to be available soon again) or do they not bother to order more?
Guess I'll check back in a week or so.
-Amazon.com has 49 new and used starting at .01 cents. Shipping might be a little high, being where you are, but at .01 cent for a book, coupled with international shipping, it still can't be that much, can it?
-The likely reason for them, your store, not having it is because it's been out of print for so on.
-Amazon.com has 49 new and used starting at .01 cents. Shipping might be a little high, being where you are, but at .01 cent for a book, coupled with international shipping, it still can't be that much, can it?
-The likely reason for them, your store, not having it is because it's been out of print for so on.
Its almost 13$ for international shipping. 3-6 weeks delivery time.
Im averse to order from amazon tbh. If I did I'd have to buy a whole batch of books anyway with the shipping fees and all.
There's a quaint shop in the neighbour town that sells used books. They had a couple of FR novels there last time I checked, its a small shot but I'll check it out next time I visit.
On the site I used to be a regular on, I used to run the International Mini-Exchange. Sounds important, but basically it was just a bunch of Nerd-boys from different countries sending miniatures to each other.
We may not have saved much on shipping, but we were able to get miniatures at cost form their countries of origin (some minis aren't available in all countries). We also 'dabbled' in other stuff.
I had a French friend, for instance, who wanted a copy of Harry Potter in the American version (which was different then the English version, believe it or not). I sent him the novel, which I paid around $20 for, and he sent me $20 worth of miniatures I had been drooling over from a French company that I could not get my hands on.
I even got two beers from Australia in exchange for something. :D
After awhile I started to give out prizes for participation ($40 Reaper Dragons), and we even managed to raise $7000 in a charity auction for Tsunami Relief.
I miss those days... I also miss having money...
I DON'T miss my Ex, though... NEVER that. :D
If you do it that way, you avoid all tariffs. :D
-Heh, doing a search of his name, apparently, he posts/ed at the Paizo boards.
If I had to choose between City of Splendors and Daughter of the Drow, which one should I pick?
Haven't heard much about City of splendors, is it any good? If yes, is it better(in your most humble opinion of course;>) than Daughter of the drow?
Should I simply order both? (dont pick this one).
I am currently ordering some new books and I thought I would pick up something of Elaine that I hadn't read yet. Inspired by this thread perhaps.
If I had to choose between City of Splendors and Daughter of the Drow, which one should I pick?
Haven't heard much about City of splendors, is it any good? If yes, is it better(in your most humble opinion of course;>) than Daughter of the drow?
Should I simply order both? (dont pick this one).
You can't go wrong with either. Personally, I prefer City of Splendors (it's an excellent novel), but Daughter of the Drow is fantastic too. Also, keep in mind that CoS was co-written by Ed Greenwood (whose writing style is anathema to many people, not that you're necessarily one of them); DotD also leads into the amazing Liriel trilogy, which is one of the finest FR trilogies ever written. In short: buy both.:P
You can't go wrong with either. Personally, I prefer City of Splendors (it's an excellent novel), but Daughter of the Drow is fantastic too. Also, keep in mind that CoS was co-written by Ed Greenwood (whose writing style is anathema to many people, not that you're necessarily one of them); DotD also leads into the amazing Liriel trilogy, which is one of the finest FR trilogies ever written. In short: buy both.:P
The only Liriel book there was Daughter of the Drow, they didn't have any of the others. Checked some other stores but they didn't have any of the others either(as in not selling them anymore).
Still worth buying even if I will never read another Liriel novel?
The only Liriel book there was Daughter of the Drow, they didn't have any of the others. Checked some other stores but they didn't have any of the others either(as in not selling them anymore).
Still worth buying even if I will never read another Liriel novel?
In that case, CoS all the way.;)
DotD alone is nice, but without the other two, it isn't much of a loss.
In that case, CoS all the way.;)
DotD alone is nice, but without the other two, it isn't much of a loss.
Skipped it for now then, might buy it next time I order more books.
Which reminds me to figure out what the heck I'm going to do with my extra copies of the first three Songs and Swords books. I've managed to wind up with two copies each of Elfshadow and Elfsong, and *three* copies of Silver Shadows, rofl. (And yet I still don't have City of Splendors. Missing a couple of anthologies with stories in them too. Derp.)
(And yet I still don't have City of Splendors. Missing a couple of anthologies with stories in them too. Derp.)
Thornhold is the one that's eluded my grasp.
But one day it will be mine.
Then again I haven't read alot of Realms novels.
I know, bad Delta.
I never read the Harper series.
Then again I haven't read alot of Realms novels.
I know, bad Delta.
very very bad
get reading
-Overall, I think the series was very hit-or-miss. There were a bunch of ones that I thought were very good, but there were a few that I read that I didn't like too much, or ones that looked like clunkers.
So what Novels did you like and which ones did you dislike out of the Harper Series?
For further lulz I now have two copies of The Dream Spheres. For the same reason I have two copies of Evermeet.
Stupid water damage. :< I can't stand it when I'm reading a book with wavy pages. DX