The cosmology - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

The cosmology

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Einlanzer
Jan 24, 2010 19:20:29 I made a topic about this on the general board, but of course the FR cosmology differs a bit from the core one. The creation story from the 4e book doesn't seem to be detailed very well so I wanted to get some extra info from anyone that knows.

1. Does the 'timeless nothingness' refer to the entire natural universe, or to a crystal sphere containing only Toril's star system? I.e. is the 'natural world' a finite or an infinite plane?

2. It states that detritus from the creation coalesced into the Astral Sea. I suppose that this means the Astral Sea surrounds either the crystal sphere or the natural universe. Though, if the natural world is infinite I don't see how this happened. Where does each exist in relation to the other?
I assume if the natural world is a sphere it would be literally around it, but then where is the EC? And if the universe is infinite, does each just occur in separate dimensions from the others?

3. Are the Feywild and the Shadowfell reflections only of Toril, or of the entire natural cosmos? I could see them only being different in places containing life, but not much info is given on their natures.

4. Would Abeir be considered another parallel plane in the same vein as the FW/SF? Or is the planar separation of a different nature?

I might think of others. Any help would be appreciated.
#2
iakhovas
Jan 24, 2010 22:01:46 Heya Einlanzer. As the author of that passage in the FRCG, perhaps I can shed some light on the subject.

1. The misty realm of timeless nothingness crafted by Ao refers to Realmspace, the crystal sphere that encompasses Toril's and its sister planets. Realmspace in finite; the Phlogiston is infinite.

2. The Astral Sea was formed from the detritus left over from the universe's creation. Something to keep in mind: Planes are metaphysical in nature and have no true spatial proximity to one another. The composition of the cosmology as we know is simply a device that sages (and authors) use to describe the universe in practical terms. Even though I used to words "coalesced around", I did not mean to imply that the Astral physically envelops the natural world. My bad.

3. The Feywild and the Shadowfell reflect everything in the natural universe, including Toril and its sister planets, and any other crystal sphere bobbing around the Phlogiston.

4. Think of Abeir as existing on an Alternate Prime Material Plane (to use a 1st-Edition term). Abeir has its own mirror Feywild and Shadowfell, but shares a common Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos with all other "alternate primes".
#3
Einlanzer
Jan 24, 2010 22:44:38 Thanks, that helped. I understand the planes are an abstract metaphysical concept related to real-world multiverse theories and therefore likely operate in separate physical dimensions, but understanding how some of the concepts have been used within D&D and how the planes interact with one another has proven to be a bit tricky for me.

I wasn't sure what parts of previous cosmologies were still considered canon in the new realms (I.e. the crystal sphere/spelljammer thing), and was somewhat confused by the description of the Astral Sea in core (it seemed as though it was intended to replace natural space).

And, I hope my beginning statement didn't offend. I was not meaning to imply sub-standard description, rather that only a small amount of space was devoted to its detail (which is probably a good thing, given the scope of the realms).

Anyway, thanks for the info.

#4
sfdragon
Jan 25, 2010 1:29:30 something I never could figure out about the sahdowfell and the feywild.
the land mass, do they mirror the prime, or does it have the same type of enviroments as the prime??
#5
The_Silversword
Jan 25, 2010 20:20:51 Yes the Shadowfell and fey wild pretty much mirror the Prime, or Mortal Plane, in this case Toril, so it would make sense that if there was a cliff or mountain or whatever, there would also be one in the coresponding spot in the Shadowfell or Feywild. OF course im sure its not exact, there might be a shadow forest in the Shadowfell the doesnt match up to any known forests on Toril, and Im sure the Feywild is mostly forest, like instead of having a mirror of Cormyr or whereever in the Feywild, its probably all forests. But yeah im sure the overall landscapes would all match up.
#6
sfdragon
Jan 25, 2010 20:36:11 which Silversword, lies a problem, the planes are the same for each world, how can the Feywild mirror the prime of Faerun and mirror greyhawk at the same time?

I think it may be better off to say the same type of enviroment, and add fey templated to animals there.....
#7
The_Silversword
Jan 25, 2010 21:31:07 The Feywild and Shadowfell of Toril mirror Toril, the Feywild and Shadowfell of Greyhawk mirror Greyhawk. Each world has its own Shadowfell, and Feywild, or i guess a better way of looking at it is that its all one Shadowfell and Feywild, just that each world overlaps a different part of it. Does that make sense? Ive got it worked out in my own head, im just not sure how to explain so it makes sense to everyone else.
#8
sfdragon
Jan 25, 2010 21:45:06 overlapping parts of it makes more since than having multiple planes of what not.....
#9
The_Silversword
Jan 25, 2010 22:04:03 Right, I think it makes more sense to consider all the Shadowfells one plane, After all the Shadow plane was supposed to connect to all the other Prime Material planes, although i dont know if they still use that in 4e. But it makes sense to me that if you was on the Shadowfell of Toril and traveled through Shadowspace, then you could end up on another Prime, or perhaps even an alternate Toril or Abeir.
#10
iakhovas
Jan 26, 2010 10:14:10
Exactly. In 3rd Edition, the Plane of Shadow was comprised of the Shadow Fringe and the Shadow Deep. The Fringe was the region that mapped closest to the natural world (though dark and twisted). All things considered, the Fringe was relatively safe but If you wanted to travel vast distances quickly, or even move to other worlds, you needed to enter the Shadow Deep (where the Malaugrym and other fell entities hold sway). In 4E, I still see the Shadowfell having these two distinct regions.
#11
sfdragon
Jan 26, 2010 14:10:58 I wonder if this was ever made clear in the 4e manual of planes.......

or will it be made clear in the shadowfel book...

anyway I wanta feywild

edit: my spelling is atrocious today
#12
Shemeska_the_Marauder
Jan 29, 2010 0:42:47
I wasn't sure what parts of previous cosmologies were still considered canon in the new realms (I.e. the crystal sphere/spelljammer thing), and was somewhat confused by the description of the Astral Sea in core (it seemed as though it was intended to replace natural space).

Yeah, it has not been handled very well suffice to say. You have a massive amount of material within FR linked to two editions as part of the Great Wheel/D&D cosmology, then the 3e material that nominally had a retconned cosmology unique to FR but which almost completely glossed over any resulting contradictions that resulted, and then 4e bluntly retconning that to force the setting to use the same cosmology as the 4e PoL core...

It's a nightmare, and honestly something that as much planar material as I've worked on, I'm not sure where I'd begin to repair any sense of continuity.

For your own game I'd suggest adopting whichever cosmology best fits your campaign depending on what version of FR you're using, and if it's not a game with much overt planar influence, to just keep the precise details vague enough to avoid having to constantly suspend disbelief because of conflicting history between 1e/2e/3e FR and post-Spellplague use of the PoL cosmology.
#13
The_Silversword
Jan 29, 2010 4:46:04 Well the new cosmology isnt really a retconn as there is an in game explanation why the Planes changed. A retconn would be if they changed and then said now lets all pretend that they were always like that. But still they way i see it they really didnt need to do all that, they didnt have to offer up any explanations, i mean the planes are infinite and beyond mortal understanding so really they could of gone with the Planes are still the same just peoples perception of them have changed. I mean its not like you could really map the planes anyway, if youre in the Elemental plane of Water you cant just look at a map and be like oh the Elemental plane of Air is just over here, you got to find a portal to get to a different plane. I still use the old cosmology. The seperate Elemental, Para-Elemental, and Quasi-Elemental planes still exsist in my games, just scholars of the day find it easier to just lump them all together into the Elemental Chaos. So all in all i think you can have your cake and eat it too!
#14
vinciente
Feb 05, 2010 10:20:03
which Silversword, lies a problem, the planes are the same for each world, how can the Feywild mirror the prime of Faerun and mirror greyhawk at the same time?

I think it may be better off to say the same type of enviroment, and add fey templated to animals there.....

Think of it more like...

Feywild/Shadowfell= actual mirror
John Doe= Greyhawk
Jane Doe= Faerun

So when John walks in front of the mirror he sees his own likeness, and likewise when Jane walks in front of it then it is her likeness that appears. The mirrow itself remains constant, but what it reflects can be different at any given time.
#15
softfoot
Jun 25, 2010 17:10:03
I am attempting to run a planes-heavy campaign. Where can I find source material for the FR 3.5 cosmology? I have the Manual of Planes but there would be a heavy conversion effort.

Specifically, I'm looking for planar attributes so I know how characters move and what environment they are interacting with. If there are major structures or cities, what do they look like and how are they run?

Any help would be great. Thanks.
#16
gray_richardson
Jun 25, 2010 19:06:04 The cosmology of Toril and the planes of the 3e/3.5 Forgotten Realms are detailed most thoroughly in the 3.5 Players Guide to Faerûn on pp.139-163.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Einlanzer Jan 24, 2010 19:20:29	I made a topic about this on the general board, but of course the FR cosmology differs a bit from the core one. The creation story from the 4e book doesn't seem to be detailed very well so I wanted to get some extra info from anyone that knows. 1. Does the 'timeless nothingness' refer to the entire natural universe, or to a crystal sphere containing only Toril's star system? I.e. is the 'natural world' a finite or an infinite plane? 2. It states that detritus from the creation coalesced into the Astral Sea. I suppose that this means the Astral Sea surrounds either the crystal sphere or the natural universe. Though, if the natural world is infinite I don't see how this happened. Where does each exist in relation to the other? I assume if the natural world is a sphere it would be literally around it, but then where is the EC? And if the universe is infinite, does each just occur in separate dimensions from the others? 3. Are the Feywild and the Shadowfell reflections only of Toril, or of the entire natural cosmos? I could see them only being different in places containing life, but not much info is given on their natures. 4. Would Abeir be considered another parallel plane in the same vein as the FW/SF? Or is the planar separation of a different nature? I might think of others. Any help would be appreciated.
#2 iakhovas Jan 24, 2010 22:01:46	Heya Einlanzer. As the author of that passage in the FRCG, perhaps I can shed some light on the subject. 1. The misty realm of timeless nothingness crafted by Ao refers to Realmspace, the crystal sphere that encompasses Toril's and its sister planets. Realmspace in finite; the Phlogiston is infinite. 2. The Astral Sea was formed from the detritus left over from the universe's creation. Something to keep in mind: Planes are metaphysical in nature and have no true spatial proximity to one another. The composition of the cosmology as we know is simply a device that sages (and authors) use to describe the universe in practical terms. Even though I used to words "coalesced around", I did not mean to imply that the Astral physically envelops the natural world. My bad. 3. The Feywild and the Shadowfell reflect everything in the natural universe, including Toril and its sister planets, and any other crystal sphere bobbing around the Phlogiston. 4. Think of Abeir as existing on an Alternate Prime Material Plane (to use a 1st-Edition term). Abeir has its own mirror Feywild and Shadowfell, but shares a common Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos with all other "alternate primes".
#3 Einlanzer Jan 24, 2010 22:44:38	Thanks, that helped. I understand the planes are an abstract metaphysical concept related to real-world multiverse theories and therefore likely operate in separate physical dimensions, but understanding how some of the concepts have been used within D&D and how the planes interact with one another has proven to be a bit tricky for me. I wasn't sure what parts of previous cosmologies were still considered canon in the new realms (I.e. the crystal sphere/spelljammer thing), and was somewhat confused by the description of the Astral Sea in core (it seemed as though it was intended to replace natural space). And, I hope my beginning statement didn't offend. I was not meaning to imply sub-standard description, rather that only a small amount of space was devoted to its detail (which is probably a good thing, given the scope of the realms). Anyway, thanks for the info.
#4 sfdragon Jan 25, 2010 1:29:30	something I never could figure out about the sahdowfell and the feywild. the land mass, do they mirror the prime, or does it have the same type of enviroments as the prime??
#5 The_Silversword Jan 25, 2010 20:20:51	Yes the Shadowfell and fey wild pretty much mirror the Prime, or Mortal Plane, in this case Toril, so it would make sense that if there was a cliff or mountain or whatever, there would also be one in the coresponding spot in the Shadowfell or Feywild. OF course im sure its not exact, there might be a shadow forest in the Shadowfell the doesnt match up to any known forests on Toril, and Im sure the Feywild is mostly forest, like instead of having a mirror of Cormyr or whereever in the Feywild, its probably all forests. But yeah im sure the overall landscapes would all match up.
#6 sfdragon Jan 25, 2010 20:36:11	which Silversword, lies a problem, the planes are the same for each world, how can the Feywild mirror the prime of Faerun and mirror greyhawk at the same time? I think it may be better off to say the same type of enviroment, and add fey templated to animals there.....
#7 The_Silversword Jan 25, 2010 21:31:07	The Feywild and Shadowfell of Toril mirror Toril, the Feywild and Shadowfell of Greyhawk mirror Greyhawk. Each world has its own Shadowfell, and Feywild, or i guess a better way of looking at it is that its all one Shadowfell and Feywild, just that each world overlaps a different part of it. Does that make sense? Ive got it worked out in my own head, im just not sure how to explain so it makes sense to everyone else.
#8 sfdragon Jan 25, 2010 21:45:06	overlapping parts of it makes more since than having multiple planes of what not.....
#9 The_Silversword Jan 25, 2010 22:04:03	Right, I think it makes more sense to consider all the Shadowfells one plane, After all the Shadow plane was supposed to connect to all the other Prime Material planes, although i dont know if they still use that in 4e. But it makes sense to me that if you was on the Shadowfell of Toril and traveled through Shadowspace, then you could end up on another Prime, or perhaps even an alternate Toril or Abeir.
#10 iakhovas Jan 26, 2010 10:14:10	Exactly. In 3rd Edition, the Plane of Shadow was comprised of the Shadow Fringe and the Shadow Deep. The Fringe was the region that mapped closest to the natural world (though dark and twisted). All things considered, the Fringe was relatively safe but If you wanted to travel vast distances quickly, or even move to other worlds, you needed to enter the Shadow Deep (where the Malaugrym and other fell entities hold sway). In 4E, I still see the Shadowfell having these two distinct regions.
#11 sfdragon Jan 26, 2010 14:10:58	I wonder if this was ever made clear in the 4e manual of planes....... or will it be made clear in the shadowfel book... anyway I wanta feywild edit: my spelling is atrocious today
#12 Shemeska_the_Marauder Jan 29, 2010 0:42:47	I wasn't sure what parts of previous cosmologies were still considered canon in the new realms (I.e. the crystal sphere/spelljammer thing), and was somewhat confused by the description of the Astral Sea in core (it seemed as though it was intended to replace natural space). Yeah, it has not been handled very well suffice to say. You have a massive amount of material within FR linked to two editions as part of the Great Wheel/D&D cosmology, then the 3e material that nominally had a retconned cosmology unique to FR but which almost completely glossed over any resulting contradictions that resulted, and then 4e bluntly retconning that to force the setting to use the same cosmology as the 4e PoL core... It's a nightmare, and honestly something that as much planar material as I've worked on, I'm not sure where I'd begin to repair any sense of continuity. For your own game I'd suggest adopting whichever cosmology best fits your campaign depending on what version of FR you're using, and if it's not a game with much overt planar influence, to just keep the precise details vague enough to avoid having to constantly suspend disbelief because of conflicting history between 1e/2e/3e FR and post-Spellplague use of the PoL cosmology.
#13 The_Silversword Jan 29, 2010 4:46:04	Well the new cosmology isnt really a retconn as there is an in game explanation why the Planes changed. A retconn would be if they changed and then said now lets all pretend that they were always like that. But still they way i see it they really didnt need to do all that, they didnt have to offer up any explanations, i mean the planes are infinite and beyond mortal understanding so really they could of gone with the Planes are still the same just peoples perception of them have changed. I mean its not like you could really map the planes anyway, if youre in the Elemental plane of Water you cant just look at a map and be like oh the Elemental plane of Air is just over here, you got to find a portal to get to a different plane. I still use the old cosmology. The seperate Elemental, Para-Elemental, and Quasi-Elemental planes still exsist in my games, just scholars of the day find it easier to just lump them all together into the Elemental Chaos. So all in all i think you can have your cake and eat it too!
#14 vinciente Feb 05, 2010 10:20:03	which Silversword, lies a problem, the planes are the same for each world, how can the Feywild mirror the prime of Faerun and mirror greyhawk at the same time? I think it may be better off to say the same type of enviroment, and add fey templated to animals there..... Think of it more like... Feywild/Shadowfell= actual mirror John Doe= Greyhawk Jane Doe= Faerun So when John walks in front of the mirror he sees his own likeness, and likewise when Jane walks in front of it then it is her likeness that appears. The mirrow itself remains constant, but what it reflects can be different at any given time.
#15 softfoot Jun 25, 2010 17:10:03	I am attempting to run a planes-heavy campaign. Where can I find source material for the FR 3.5 cosmology? I have the Manual of Planes but there would be a heavy conversion effort. Specifically, I'm looking for planar attributes so I know how characters move and what environment they are interacting with. If there are major structures or cities, what do they look like and how are they run? Any help would be great. Thanks.
#16 gray_richardson Jun 25, 2010 19:06:04	The cosmology of Toril and the planes of the 3e/3.5 Forgotten Realms are detailed most thoroughly in the 3.5 Players Guide to Faerûn on pp.139-163.