What's with the dragonborn?
Now, it has always been common knowledge that Tiamat/Gilgeam of FR were supposed to be the DragonLance counterpart gods (or entities) Gilean/Takhisis. Backed again in part by their relationship and her killing of Gilgeam during the Time of Troubles.
I assume we also know that Tiamat was a prevailing presence in Unther right up until the Spellplague.
So, we have a previous rivalry of these two gods on a different plane. A plane where, through Takhisis's instruction and quest for power, draconians were created. A plane where she bred these creatures to help secure her dominion over it.
Now we have this:
Gilgeam is dead in Toril
Tiamat is alive and well in Unther
Gilean is alive an well in Krynn
Takhasis is dead in Krynn
Suddenly, the Spellplague comes, and we have the entire nation of Unther disappear and get replaced by a nation of creatures called dragonborn? Is Tiamat actually responsible for pulling these creatures (draconians) through the planes?
I mean, I've heard Tiamat is supposed to have a more powerful role in 4e--but not to what degree. I also remember that many DL draconians had grown resentful of their dragon parentage during the 5th age of mortals.
Seems to fit what I've heard.
Is this supposed to replace or help bring back DL to a degree? Any thoughts on this connection or knowledge that can put it to rest?
And Gilean is certainly not an incarnation of Gilgeam. You should compare the two deities. They are very different. Mabye you meant Bahamut and Paladine?
I don't think that Dragonborn are Draconians.
I wouldn't necessarily think so either, but I find it odd what they are and where they happened to pop up.
And Gilean is certainly not an incarnation of Gilgeam. You should compare the two deities. They are very different.
As Karsus schooled me on yesterday, the perception and beliefs of mortal worshipers can sometimes dictate how gods will appear and behave to a degree. A gods role and path in one world doesn't necessarily dictate how they will work at things in another.
I'll try to look into the Gilgeam/Gilean thing a bit more. Back in my day (some years ago), this was a common belief.
Bahamut and Paladine?
That was the other one--couldn't remember the name of the associated god. The three primary gods of good, neutral, and evil from DL, were all said to have a counterpart in the Realms.
And Gilean is certainly not an incarnation of Gilgeam. You should compare the two deities. They are very different.
I've been looking into this and I have to give you this one. Gilgeam is not the god I was thinking of. As is, I don't know who it was supposed to be. Still looking though.
Even so, my focus is still on Tiamat--he was just one more coincidence that, now, don't believe fits into things.
I do not think they plan to ever "link" worlds officially like they did in 2E.
Unfortunate. It made the game far more enjoyable for me.
Unfortunate. It made the game far more enjoyable for me.
-You can still have it that way, if you want. Nothing in new published material specifically invalidates Spelljamming, or Planewalking. Neither are supported anymore, but nothing anywhere says, "These things do not exist and/or function anymore".
I wouldn't necessarily think so either, but I find it odd what they are and where they happened to pop up.
Dragonborn are simply an elaboration of the 3.5e dragonborn, presented in Races of the Dragon.
While I have played with the idea of Takhisis bringing draconians into the Realms (complete with a Flying Citadel), it's not that easy. Takhisis and Tiamat are technically not the same deity. They don't have power over other worlds.
And since there is no "Thymanther" in Ansalon, it would be hard to explain that the dragonborn come from Krynn. But maybe if there's going to be be a 4e Dragonlance setting, they'll change that.
As for Gilean: The only FR god that bears a passing resemblance to Gilean is Toth from the mulhorandi pantheon. But I don't think I ever heard something of a connection between these two.
Unfortunate. It made the game far more enjoyable for me.
I used to like it, now not so much. I am glad every world is "contained" officially. The DM can change this of course rather easily just with a hand wave. When it is published some gamers will be real pains and want their kender or warforged in Dark Sun or FR becaus they "fell throuh a portal". Yes a DM can say no but it is annoying nonetheless. This way a DM can just say, "All worlds are linked." and the game continues.
I realized I liked Planescape not because they linked all of 2E but because they gave tons of PLANES info that I thought was lacking. That is what new Planescape game stuff should be about. Info so you can run games in the Planes no matter what setting you play.
Dragonborn are simply an elaboration of the 3.5e dragonborn, presented in Races of the Dragon.
I wasn't aware that the dragonborn had been mentioned before--thought they were simply a new addition to the 4th ed. Thanks for the info.
While I have played with the idea of Takhisis bringing draconians into the Realms (complete with a Flying Citadel), it's not that easy. Takhisis and Tiamat are technically not the same deity. They don't have power over other worlds.
It was my understanding that Tiamat/Takhisis was an interloper deity, simultaneously present in both worlds (and more), their power relative to their respective status in any given world.
And since there is no "Thymanther" in Ansalon, it would be hard to explain that the dragonborn come from Krynn. But maybe if there's going to be be a 4e Dragonlance setting, they'll change that.
During the DL 5th age, draconians were becoming more socially cultured with their dealings among themselves and other races. Small enclaves of them existed here and there.
From what I heard, Krynn's time line is about 60 years or so ahead of FR (not that time truly matter so much, I would think). With the way things shake up all the time in these settings, it wouldn't surprise me if a Thymanther did evolve at some point. Also, remember the Dragon Isles existed for thousands of years without anybody actually laying eyes on them. And, as you pointed out, there is potentially a 4th ed revision that could establish it.
Not disagreeing with you, just saying I think a relocation of a draconion nation is possible. But, as you pointed out, dragonborn are really just dragonborn, so this is evidently not the case.
As for Gilean: The only FR god that bears a passing resemblance to Gilean is Toth from the mulhorandi pantheon. But I don't think I ever heard something of a connection between these two.
Well, Unther and Mulhorand do overlap to some degree, but Thoth doesn't ring a bell for me--though his portfolio fits. I really have no idea at this point.
Either way, appreciate the feedback. Overall, I still just find it odd that a whole nation of dragonborn were dropped in Tiamat's backyard.
Overall, I still just find it odd that a whole nation of dragonborn were dropped in Tiamat's backyard.
I thought the same thing. I can't believe they may actually be dropping Dragonborn into Unther, the Land of Tiamat, Queen of Evil Dragons, and they are in no way caused by or related to anything Tiamat has done. That is just missing a really good tie-in to the point of stupidity.
However I did read in AGHotR that Bahumut escaped his imprisonment (?) I believe in the Year of Dragon Rage (or something like that, it was just a few years before the spellplague) and went after Tiamat. Perhaps the Dragonborn are good followers of Bahumut and he summoned them to fight Tiamat. So if they are not tied into either one of them and just happen to come through a magical portal to the Realms and just happen to be in Unther then that is pretty damn lame.
However I did read in AGHotR that Bahumut escaped his imprisonment (?) I believe in the Year of Dragon Rage (or something like that, it was just a few years before the spellplague) and went after Tiamat. Perhaps the Dragonborn are good followers of Bahumut and he summoned them to fight Tiamat. So if they are not tied into either one of them and just happen to come through a magical portal to the Realms and just happen to be in Unther then that is pretty damn lame.
Yeah, Bahumut was released at the end of The Rage. I guess his imprisonment was a way to make up for the fact that he wasn't included in 3ed by mistake.
But the dragonborn are said to be militaristic, harsh and unforgiving. So, I don't think that Bahumut would have those types of creatures following or serving him.
If there is a tie, then I believe it has to be with Tiamat somehow.
I do not think they plan to ever "link" worlds officially like they did in 2E.
Actually with the new cosmology they are trying to make it uniform to as many settings as possible. What you get is worlds being even more "linked" than in Planescape. Personally, I like the idea of linked worlds but I thought the Great Wheel was good enough for that. Retconning the planes, IMO, was a step in the wrong direction.
Actually with the new cosmology they are trying to make it uniform to as many settings as possible. What you get is worlds being even more "linked" than in Planescape. Personally, I like the idea of linked worlds but I thought the Great Wheel was good enough for that. Retconning the planes, IMO, was a step in the wrong direction.
I rather disagree. The Great Wheel was interesting in concept, but I find the new archetype much more dynamic than a infinite-diameter disc cut up like a pizza.
The new paradigm (Think outside the box, people! -- Sorry, couldn't help myself) makes a bit more sense to me, especially given that the Outer Planes still remain separate from the Prime via the Astral.
As far as how to make it work with the Realms... well, uhh... Tiamat stole the world and hid it in the Abyss? It worked (poorly) for Dragonlance! :p
Actually with the new cosmology they are trying to make it uniform to as many settings as possible. What you get is worlds being even more "linked" than in Planescape. Personally, I like the idea of linked worlds but I thought the Great Wheel was good enough for that. Retconning the planes, IMO, was a step in the wrong direction.
Which, to a degree, is why the Spellplague took place and ran rampant through all planes. It was a one all-win all scenario. That is why I can find it at least credible that Tiamat could pull something like this off.
I realized I liked Planescape not because they linked all of 2E but because they gave tons of PLANES info that I thought was lacking. That is what new Planescape game stuff should be about. Info so you can run games in the Planes no matter what setting you play.
Meh. The whole plane-hopping jazz always bored me. Just give me the worlds and some brief planar info.
I thought the same thing. I can't believe they may actually be dropping Dragonborn into Unther, the Land of Tiamat, Queen of Evil Dragons, and they are in no way caused by or related to anything Tiamat has done. That is just missing a really good tie-in to the point of stupidity.
-I was shocked when the 4e Dragonborn weren't linked to those Dragon Eggs introduced in Dragons of Faerûn.
-I was shocked when the 4e Dragonborn weren't linked to those Dragon Eggs introduced in Dragons of Faerûn.
Eh? What? What dragon eggs? Tell me!
Eh? What? What dragon eggs? Tell me!
-Do you have Dragons of Faerûn? Or A Grand History of the Realms? The latter briefly explains the event (It took place in 1374 DR), and the former explains it in detail.
-Do you have Dragons of Faerûn? Or A Grand History of the Realms? The latter briefly explains the event (It took place in 1374 DR), and the former explains it in detail.
My man, if I had either, then I wouldn't be asking you, now would I?
My man, if I had either, then I wouldn't be asking you, now would I?
-You could. While we're on that note, you really should get AGHotR, just because.
-Anyway, in 1374 DR, after the Rage of the Dragons ended, some sort of Dragon eggs began showering Faerûn. Tiamat instructed her followers to collect these eggs, as did Bahamut. The plotline was never elaborated at all after Dragons of Faerûn. Being as that these were Dragon eggs, and we are being introduced to Dragonborn, I don't think it'd be that difficult to link the two, instead of using yet another cliche to introduce the new race.
-You could. While we're on that note, you really should get AGHotR, just because.
-Anyway, in 1374 DR, after the Rage of the Dragons ended, some sort of Dragon eggs began showering Faerûn. Tiamat instructed her followers to collect these eggs, as did Bahamut. The plotline was never elaborated at all after Dragons of Faerûn. Being as that these were Dragon eggs, and we are being introduced to Dragonborn, I don't think it'd be that difficult to link the two, instead of using yet another cliche to introduce the new race.
Thank you, your lordship. I appreciate you filling me in.
I plan on picking up AGHotR once I see it. As I've said in the past, the Borders I go to doesn't carry much but stuff by best sellers--i.e. three shelves of RAS and one shelf of other works. I was lucky alone to find that Mistress of the Night you turned me on to.
Anyway, I agree with how they would link. The only way it could though is if Tiamat transfered these eggs to another plane, ignored the time-space continuum in some manner, cultured the dragonborn society over time, then ripped them back through during the Spellplague.
And that would be the farthest fetched portion of 4th ed yet.
Anyway, I agree with how they would link. The only way it could though is if Tiamat transfered these eggs to another plane, ignored the time-space continuum in some manner, cultured the dragonborn society over time, then ripped them back through during the Spellplague.
-It doesn't even have to be that complicated. You can just have them hatch around 1385 DR, when the time jump begins, come up with some story explaining the hows and whys about how they have their own kingdom in the 4e FRCS, and bada bing, there you go.
-It doesn't even have to be that complicated. You can just have them hatch around 1385 DR, when the time jump begins, come up with some story explaining the hows and whys about how they have their own kingdom in the 4e FRCS, and bada bing, there you go.
That, I believe, would only be possible if there were tens of thousands of these eggs. I mean, to have an entire nation of dragonborn by 1479, they would have to be breeding like rabbits through the entire 100 time jump. Leaves little time to establish a nation to begin with.
That, I believe, would only be possible if there were tens of thousands of these eggs. I mean, to have an entire nation of dragonborn by 1479, they would have to be breeding like rabbits through the entire 100 time jump. Leaves little time to establish a nation to begin with.
-Dragons of Faerûn doesn't specify how many eggs fell, and, so far, we have no idea what the population of Tymanther, the Dragonborn state, is. It's plausible.
-Dragons of Faerûn doesn't specify how many eggs fell, and, so far, we have no idea what the population of Tymanther, the Dragonborn state, is. It's plausible.
Only slightly. I see far too many variables involved in order to be able to spring up a new nation of an entirely new race within a hundred years. You'd really have to stretch things.
Only slightly. I see far too many variables involved in order to be able to spring up a new nation of an entirely new race within a hundred years. You'd really have to stretch things.
-I think the theory connecting two events that very obviously can be connected is a better in-game explanation, rather than the cliche "extraplanar portal" deal. That we know next to nothing about both the Dragonborn, and these Dragon eggs only helps that theory, since it allows for, as you say, multiple variables to be added in, to make things much more plausible.
-I think the theory connecting two events that very obviously can be connected is a better in-game explanation, rather than the cliche "extraplanar portal" deal. That we know next to nothing about both the Dragonborn, and these Dragon eggs only helps that theory, since it allows for, as you say, multiple variables to be added in, to make things much more plausible.
I agree with you completely. I just think you would be hard pressed to evolve the race and expand the dragonborns dominion within a hundred year time frame and be able to give detailed and plausible reasons as to how it came to be. I mean, you have to deal with everything from politics to perception. The how's and whys would be daunting, in my humble opinion.
If I were DMing realms 4E (which I wont be), wouldn't the most logical explanation be to have the saurians having somewhat magically 'evolved' and become more realms-like (ie. dragonborn). Perhaps a massive shift in saurian culture made them more warlike (such as invasion), and various 'agreements' with less than savory characters eventually resulted in the transformation of their physiology etc. Saurians were boring goody-two-shoes anyway. As others have said, why transplant an entirely new race when existing candidates already exist, and a new rules set (and a 100-year jump) allows for a massive re-interpretation of their abilities and societies.
Just my thoughts
Hmm,..
If I were DMing realms 4E (which I wont be), wouldn't the most logical explanation be to have the saurians having somewhat magically 'evolved' and become more realms-like (ie. dragonborn). Perhaps a massive shift in saurian culture made them more warlike (such as invasion), and various 'agreements' with less than savory characters eventually resulted in the transformation of their physiology etc. Saurians were boring goody-two-shoes anyway. As others have said, why transplant an entirely new race when existing candidates already exist, and a new rules set (and a 100-year jump) allows for a massive re-interpretation of their abilities and societies.
Just my thoughts
Plausible, I guess. But aren't Saurians a bit simple in the head? Not sure if I remember correctly or not. If so, then that would be a clincher on why it wouldn't be plausible.
Plausible, I guess. But aren't Saurians a bit simple in the head? Not sure if I remember correctly or not. If so, then that would be a clincher on why it wouldn't be plausible.
Actually, I just thought the Saurials were alien and couldn't communicate in the normal sense we accept as standard. Doesn't make them any less intelligent.
However, since they never bothered to update the Saurials to 3.x (as far as I can tell) then I would be all for retconning them to be dragonborn. Or at least the Spellplague changes them into the dragonborn. I've always been a fan of Dragonbait and Alias.
Actually, I just thought the Saurials were alien and couldn't communicate in the normal sense we accept as standard. Doesn't make them any less intelligent.
Perhaps, but by all conveyances I got, they were simple. They're culture alone was very simple.
However, since they never bothered to update the Saurials to 3.x (as far as I can tell) then I would be all for retconning them to be dragonborn. Or at least the Spellplague changes them into the dragonborn. I've always been a fan of Dragonbait and Alias.
So, this is the only way it could even possibly happen.
-I think the theory connecting two events that very obviously can be connected is a better in-game explanation, rather than the cliche "extraplanar portal" deal. That we know next to nothing about both the Dragonborn, and these Dragon eggs only helps that theory, since it allows for, as you say, multiple variables to be added in, to make things much more plausible.
Sadly it is stated in Countdown1:
"Some say that the dragonborn are creations of Tiamat, hatched from vast incubators hidden beneath temples of the dragon-goddess in the cities of Unther. Others believe that the dragonborn are descended from the human population of the old empire, changed by the touch of the Spellplague into something no longer human. But the truth of the matter is even stranger: As it did in many other places in Faerûn, the Spellplague opened the door to some other realm entirely, wrenching the aeries and castles of the dragonborn from their native land—wherever that once was—and depositing them amid the chaos of devastated Unther."
Both options before the 'truth' would have been preferable to the truth, as they don't relay on extra-realmsian crap.
Best wishes
Lirdolin
I dread the day I need to roleplay alongside a stinking dragonborn who cannot even tell me where they are from, who stinks and who sheds scales.
Slay em all!
Dragonborn are lame. Just saying.
I dread the day I need to roleplay alongside a stinking dragonborn who cannot even tell me where they are from, who stinks and who sheds scales.
Slay em all!
I actually like the idea of Dragonborn as presented in the preview material.
As for the way they were just inserted into the Realms? Not so much--it didn't have to be done the way it was. Oh well...
Both options before the 'truth' would have been preferable to the truth, as they don't relay on extra-realmsian crap.
-Yup.
-Personally, I find it just a little redundant to replace one society that was placed into the Realms via portal, with another society that was placed into the Realms via portal, especially when one of the main complaints about the former society was that it was plced into the Realms via portal.
-Yup.
-Personally, I find it just a little redundant to replace one society that was placed into the Realms via portal, with another society that was placed into the Realms via portal, especially when one of the main complaints about the former society was that it was plced into the Realms via portal.
Maybe that area of the world has a thinner fabric of time/space/dimension that makes it easier for such things to happen. Sort of like the Bermuda Triangle.
...?
Maybe that area of the world has a thinner fabric of time/space/dimension that makes it easier for such things to happen. Sort of like the Bermuda Triangle.
...?
-It's not really that the "science" behind "why" needs explaining. I have no problem with the idea that portals and such exist, and so on and so on. It's just the...irony I see in the explanations, in relation to the actual actions being taken.
-It's not really that the "science" behind "why" needs explaining, it's just the...irony I see in the explanations, in relation to the actual actions being taken.
Yeah--it was a pretty unsubtle way of introducing the creatures as well.
Yeah--it was a pretty unsubtle way of introducing the creatures as well.
-Exactly.