Anyway, the series' effect on FR takes the form of (spoiler below):
(1) Thay is pretty much a dead land.
That's no surprise.
(2) Szass Tam killed all other Zulkirs.
That virtually killed off a large part of Thay's personality (but hey, WotC killed it already). The last part with him chain killing the last four zulkirs seemed forced. I guess the author himself didn't even want to kill them off (*cough* WotC *cough* or he'd have put in more effort into that.
(3) There's now a spell that is even more powerful than Karsus' Avatar that a mage who's far less powerful than Karsus can invoke. This spell turns the caster into a god, destroys a prime world, and then allows the caster to create a world from the resulting debris. All the while, divine powers and their proxies will stand around and not do anything (though the author tried to cover his base by saying gods work in unpredictable ways).
(4) Szass Tam is now the most powerful mage in the Unapproachable East!
So, he made a pact with Bane and his power suddenly spikes up. Hmm... I wonder why other gods have not made similar pacts with other mortals... Anyway, he's become FR's version of Lich King... people probably wouldn't whine about it because he's a bad guy and not one of those campaign-ruining Chosens.
Before I start to QQ, I'd say the Haunted Lands trilogy is well-written and I really liked how the author describe each character and event.
Anyway, the series' effect on FR takes the form of (spoiler below):
Probably why I avoid 90% of the FR novels nowadays. I really don't get why people feel the need to have every story be world shaking. It's why I like Swordmage best out of the latest crop, even with the international intrigue the setting, story and it's consequences all feel local. Someone in Waterdeep is both unaware of what's going on and unaffected by it either way.
Not every darned book needs to be the Wheel of Time.
-With number four, the case could be made that this was already the case.
Yeah, of course. Speaking of which, I thought you'd be rather ticked off by the fact that a lesser mage can do something far greater than your Avatar spell. But then again, I'd expect many of us have already been desensitized by bs from WotC after all that've been released over the past 2 years.
Probably why I avoid 90% of the FR novels nowadays.
Same. The few WotC novels I get these days are either in 3e or something that ends a trilogy that started from 3e. Since many of the other old-timers would probably do the same, I am curious to know how novel sales will go for pure 4e novels in the future... like trilogies on Abeir or motes.
Same. The few WotC novels I get these days are either in 3e or something that ends a trilogy that started from 3e. Since many of the other old-timers would probably do the same, I am curious to know how novel sales will go for pure 4e novels in the future... like trilogies on Abeir or motes.
Swordmage is worthwhile. Unless your into not getting a good book for some sort of pointless protest. It suffers slighty from being one of the first novels for a new edition, need to introduce or maneuver round new concepts/rules but the story is solid and I like the characters.
Best of all no sniff of an RSE. A good fantasy novel set in a very under used corner of FR. With the start of 4e I'm actually considering dabbling with at least a few novels since they might avoid RSEing their revised setting for a year or two.
Swordmage is worthwhile. Unless your into not getting a good book for some sort of pointless protest. It suffers slighty from being one of the first novels for a new edition, need to introduce or maneuver round new concepts/rules but the story is solid and I like the characters.
Best of all no sniff of an RSE. A good fantasy novel set in a very under used corner of FR. With the start of 4e I'm actually considering dabbling with at least a few novels since they might avoid RSEing their revised setting for a year or two.
No, I don't have the interest to read new FR novels. This is not really a boycott, but simply a genuine lack of motivation.
I may read the next Elaine book if she writes one though.
No, I don't have the interest to read new FR novels. This is not really a boycott, but simply a genuine lack of motivation.
I may read the next Elaine book if she writes one though.
Yeah, she is one of the handful of Realms authors I can still read. And strangely enough no RSE's.
Hmm, pattern.
*Looks at the OP through bleary eyes*
*Bursts out laughing again, louder and harder than before*
Well written?
I've seen small children turn in better stories with crayons during the stomach flu.
I'm fairly certain by the end of that novel, no thanks to the remainder of the series I'm sure, I was legally blind, and mentally disabled (to put it nicely) for no less than a week afterwards.
Why Wizards even lets Byers write I'll never know. I don't blame him for being bad. I've not read his no Realms novels, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. But the man knows nothing of the setting or the game, and writes like a tourettes ridden child in a candy store. I'm not sure how many more times I can watch a caster of any level use Burning Hands to instantly kill CR 12 + undead. I won't even touch on his ability to use duplicate words multiple times in one sentence, or let certain trains of thought run on to long.
Plain and simple, hand in hand with it's predecessors, and other RLB novels, these prove among the very worst pieces of tripe to grace the shelves, let alone the Forgotten Realms setting. If the designers ever seek his advice or ideas, it'll mean a sad day for the world, and a day I DO finally give up on the setting.
-RW
P.S. I will say one thing in his favour. Once he gets an idea rolling, the writing slowly improves. However, you could take a highlighter to the books, and mark out EXACTLY where it appears he wandered off for the washroom, dinner, or other non literary activities.
I haven't read Byers (don't really want to) so I don't feel confident in offering a critique of his work but even if it is the worst bit of tripe ever you could certainly manage to be a little less rude of someone elses labours I should think. He obviously is well enough received to be used for more than one novel so I imagine his books sell.
It perhaps helps to remember that taste is subjective, one mans caviar is another mans fish poo.
A critical analysis rather than a diatribe usually serves to better get your point across.
I don't normally like to be adversarial but you've written & published how many books?
I haven't read Byers (don't really want to) so I don't feel confident in offering a critique of his work but even if it is the worst bit of tripe ever you could certainly manage to be a little less rude of someone elses labours I should think. He obviously is well enough received to be used for more than one novel so I imagine his books sell.
It perhaps helps to remember that taste is subjective, one mans caviar is another mans fish poo.
A critical analysis rather than a diatribe usually serves to better get your point across.
None it's true, though not for lack of ability. I simply have a bad habit of trying to do many things at once, and never finishing most of them. That, and I might be lazy. :P
That said, I don't know a single film critic who has ever made, produced, directed, or acted in a single movie, yet they get paid to write some of the silliest reviews known to man. Reviews often far worse than what I've said here, and I'll note unread by myself.
Granted I can be more constructive about his material, and note specifically which aspects of his work make for poor written material. I touch on three points, though did not delve into them. Why? Because honestly, I don't think he really warrants a page by page break down.
As for numbers being sold, people will by shite on a stick of I tell them it's magical. Selling something doesn't make it good. It simply means that the target audience (in this case 13 year old males) aren't refined enough to know better. Combine that with people, like myself, who have to own everything Realms, and your base of sales is made.
So I'm sorry, but the two points you've made, ones that are always dragged out of the closet when someone bashes something they hate, are really moot. One doesn't have to write to critique, nor do sales proove quality. If they did, 4E Realms (Of which I love, though for varied reasons) would probably never had sold more than a handful of copies.
-RW
Yeah, of course. Speaking of which, I thought you'd be rather ticked off by the fact that a lesser mage can do something far greater than your Avatar spell. But then again, I'd expect many of us have already been desensitized by bs from WotC after all that've been released over the past 2 years.
-Yeah, nothing totally surprises me anymore. We already knew, as per the FRCG, that Szass Tam tried to cast a magical ritual that would make him a deity, but failed, resulting in Thay becoming a very lonely place.
I'm sure all the authors consider themselves 'the exception'.
These guys break their own rules faster then they can make them.
And quite frankly, did FR need Mordor and another godlike villain?
Then again, in the new FR you can fight the gods pretty easily and win, so perhaps Szass Tam is just another "elite" boss villain along the path toward epic purple loots!
Sadly, it's par for the 4E Realms where all PCs in the end are godlike anyway.
They all are.
They somehow managed to suck all the flavor out of the most flavorful setting ever created - thats quite an accomplishment right there...
One they should be proud of.
*Rolls around on the ground laughing to the point of choking*(
*Looks at the OP through bleary eyes*
*Bursts out laughing again, louder and harder than before*
Well written?
I've seen small children turn in better stories with crayons during the stomach flu.
There are some parts of the series that I do appreciate, though I am certainly not a big fan of the results (likely dictated by Richard Baker and his cohorts).
As for his writing style, it's comparably better than some of the other WotC authors who wrote abysmal novels (no, they don't necessarily take place in the abyss too). I agree that it's definitely not perfect, but it's okay if you loosen the standards a little (this is just a casual novel series after all).
And of course, I try not to sound adversarial to authors in an official forum (that's for Candlekeep).
Yup - he's just a big, scarey stat-block now.
They all are.
They somehow managed to suck all the flavor our of the most flavorful setting ever created - thats quite an accomplishment right there...
One they should be proud of.
They literally succeeded in casting the spell of "Unmaking" on FR, except the casters are RB and his team - It might've been nicer if Malark or Szass Tam succeeded instead.
I read FR novels because they take place in FR, and I want the lore. If there was no lore (and 4e novels don't contain any that pertains to my setting), I wouldn't read them.
And thats the god's honest truth.
However, there are a couple that I have read and glad I did, and I would have never 'discovered' them if I wasn't already interested in FR. But you really need to wade through A LOT of garbage to find the gems.
After I read Red Wizards, I NEVER read another novel about Harpers again... not even Ed or Elaine's...
I can't even read the word 'Harper' without throwing up a little in my mouth, after reading that pile of dung. (I suppose that means I won't be able to read this post...)
I guess what I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't let the dearth of good FR novels keep you from enjoying the Realms.
But it's so hard!
After I read Red Wizards, I NEVER read another novel about Harpers again... not even Ed or Elaine's...
I can't even read the word 'Harper' without throwing up a little in my mouth, after reading that pile of dung. (I suppose that means I won't be able to read this post...)
It was Red Magic, by Jean Rabe, and I agree. I think it was possibly the worst novel I've ever read from the Realms (not quite the worst period, as I'll hold my decision on that one until something so unspeakably horrible leaps to mind), and that is saying quite a lot given how many I've covered.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't let the dearth of good FR novels keep you from enjoying the Realms.
It's true, and it's what keeps me reading them for fun when I get the chance. That said, I wish it wasn't a hit or miss section, as it gives new comers, and long timers the wrong impression. Some people have been turned off so thoroughly by one bad story, they refuse to pick up ANY Realms novel again.
I don't think sub par, should be acceptable, or justifiable by letting them elevate the better pieces.
-RW
A lot of FR fans NEED to start reading other Fantasy and Sci-Fi... you may not come back.
I read FR novels because they take place in FR, and I want the lore. If there was no lore (and 4e novels don't contain any that pertains to my setting), I wouldn't read them.
And thats the god's honest truth.
Same here, to a large extent. I read the FR books mainly to get a feel for the Realms, some of which accomplished that quite successfully. The fact that some novels, particularly Elaine's were really enjoyable was a bonus. Since then though, I've moved onto other books that are exceedingly well written. A Song of Ice and Fire, for instance, is one of the best fantasy series I've ever read.
As for the OP, yup, that sounds like another RSE. Seems even after the uber-RSE of the Spellplague the Realms aren't safe from them. Alas.
It was Red Magic, by Jean Rabe, and I agree. I think it was possibly the worst novel I've ever read from the Realms (not quite the worst period, as I'll hold my decision on that one until something so unspeakably horrible leaps to mind), and that is saying quite a lot given how many I've covered.
'Once Around the Realms' by Brian Thomsen, and 'Escape from Undermountain' by Mark Anthony -- compared to those two, 'Red Magic' is a stellar novel.
I'm not sure how many more times I can watch a caster of any level use Burning Hands to instantly kill CR 12 + undead. I won't even touch on his ability to use duplicate words multiple times in one sentence, or let certain trains of thought run on to long.
Well, the worst example I can think of is the two apprentice liches of Halaster crawling out of their sarcophagi, and anti-climatically tripping on their shrouds or robes (can't recall exact details, but this happened in 'Escape from Undermountain') and consequently crumbling to dust as their "frail" bodies hit the floor...
A lot of FR fans NEED to start reading other Fantasy and Sci-Fi... you may not come back.
I read FR novels because they take place in FR, and I want the lore. If there was no lore (and 4e novels don't contain any that pertains to my setting), I wouldn't read them.
Same, though there were novels that I genuinely liked in FR back then (i.e. Evermeet, Councellors and Kings, Netheril Trilogy).
As for other Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels, there are certainly instances that are far superior to the average D&D novel. His Dark Materials, for example, is masterfully written despite the fact that it's intrinsically geared towards children. On the other hand, very few Sci-Fi/Fantasy settings are as large and elaborate as D&D (not even Warcraft), which is FR's main appeal to many.
'Once Around the Realms' by Brian Thomsen, and 'Escape from Undermountain' by Mark Anthony -- compared to those two, 'Red Magic' is a stellar novel.
I've not read either yet, but I almost argue that the mummy's tripping and falling apart give the Zulkir of Transmutation a run for his money, when he gets squashed in a mine, while two joe blow harpers walk out. :P
-RW
A lot of FR fans NEED to start reading other Fantasy and Sci-Fi... you may not come back.
I read FR novels because they take place in FR, and I want the lore. If there was no lore (and 4e novels don't contain any that pertains to my setting), I wouldn't read them.
And thats the god's honest truth.
-That's why I always scoff and chuckle when people say that they don't want Forgotten Realms novels to be canon. I know that if novels weren't canon, I wouldn't buy them- why buy novels that don't really matter? And, then, of course, continuing the chain reaction, if I never picked up and read any of the novels, I never would have really gotten into the Forgotten Realms. And, if I had never really gotten into the Forgotten Realms, there'd be no LK. And, if there wasn't a LK, who knows what things would be like!?
-And, also agreeing with your point, that's why I have no plans on picking up any 4e Forgotten Realms novels- those aren't events that I, as a fan, consider as happening to my Forgotten Realms, so, like you said, that's not lore pertaining to anything I am "associating with", which brings me back to the point about me not buying things when they don't actually matter.
I thought the story was good, the idea behind it and the general way it came about.
Just because someone is a good or even great game designer, doesn't mean that are automatically a good novelist. Different skills are needed.
I don't normally like to be adversarial but you've written & published how many books?
I read statements like this often and 90% of the time I don't think they apply. Just like I don't think this is a valid statement in this case.
You don't need to be a professional author to critize a professional author. If that were fanfiction or we were listening to an amateur glee club this argument would be valid, as we could "instantly" apply to try to do it better.
But once someone makes the move into the professional leage and starts being paid work his product you have any right to critize him without starting to do the same job.
So far I haven't read the last novel, but his threatment of Bane in the second novel was degrading.
Show
One of the most powerfull deities of the realms yanked from his realm and bound on the material plane by someone like Szass? Yeah, it was implied that Bane could have broken free if he had put more effort into breaking the bounds but a greater deity like him should have been able to do that without any effort at all. And Szass even threatining Bane with "you might destroy me, but I will hurt you good before going down"? Sorry, but if Szass can make such a threat to Bane, he would already be more powerfull than many lesser deities of the FR. And that would mean that Larloch should be more powerfull than greater deities (if Szass can at least put up a decent fight against one and Larloch is much more powerfull than Szass). The worst: Szass did this while his own magic was supposed to be unreliable and weakened by Mystra's dead (heck, one of his first demands of Bane is that he should show him how to fix his magic! So he dragged Bane down and bound him and threatened him with weakened magic, what would he have done if his magic were at full power?
I heard once that TSR pretty much gave every game designer a free book deal.
-Hmm...I don't know it that's true or not, but...Offhand, the only designers I can think of that have had both novels (not short stories) and design credits (over the course of 20 +/- years) would be...
- Ed Greenwood
- Steven Schend
- Rich Baker
- Jeff Grub
- Bruce Cordell
- Doug Niles
- R.A. Salvatore
- Thomas Reid
- Jean Rabe
-I'm sure that's nowhere near comprehensive...
I read statements like this often and 90% of the time I don't think they apply. Just like I don't think this is a valid statement in this case.
You don't need to be a professional author to critize a professional author. If that were fanfiction or we were listening to an amateur glee club this argument would be valid, as we could "instantly" apply to try to do it better.
But once someone makes the move into the professional leage and starts being paid work his product you have any right to critize him without starting to do the same job.
So far I haven't read the last novel, but his threatment of Bane in the second novel was degrading.ShowOne of the most powerfull deities of the realms yanked from his realm and bound on the material plane by someone like Szass? Yeah, it was implied that Bane could have broken free if he had put more effort into breaking the bounds but a greater deity like him should have been able to do that without any effort at all. And Szass even threatining Bane with "you might destroy me, but I will hurt you good before going down"? Sorry, but if Szass can make such a threat to Bane, he would already be more powerfull than many lesser deities of the FR. And that would mean that Larloch should be more powerfull than greater deities (if Szass can at least put up a decent fight against one and Larloch is much more powerfull than Szass). The worst: Szass did this while his own magic was supposed to be unreliable and weakened by Mystra's dead (heck, one of his first demands of Bane is that he should show him how to fix his magic! So he dragged Bane down and bound him and threatened him with weakened magic, what would he have done if his magic were at full power?
Just because someone is a good or even great game designer, doesn't mean that are automatically a good novelist. Different skills are needed.
A good game designer PLAYS D&D.
Gygax did, and Ed did. If you've never been a DM - for years and years - you can't possibly be any good at designing adventures for others.
How many of the current team play D&D on the weekends?
They're all too busy writing novels...
I seriously doubt ANY of them have played D&D for fun - if they didn't have to, on occassion, during playtesting, none of them would ever even pick-up a set of 'funny-dice'.
They don't like D&D - it's painfully obvious. They wish it would just 'go away'.
And they're doing a great job making it do just that.
A good game designer PLAYS D&D.
-I don't agree with that at all.
-J.R.R. Tolkien was, perhaps, the pinnacle of fantastical world designing. Did he ever play Dungeons and Dragons? Fantasy settings are simply slates that D&D rules (or other rules) can be applied to, if someone wants to take the time. The process of creating a fantastical setting is completely independent to D&D. The Forgotten Realms, case and point: The setting was created as a self-contained world for Ed Greenwood to write stories in as a kid, that grew in size and detail from there. Given that this was probably the mid-to-late 60's, and D&D didn't debut until the mid 70's...
He's supposed to have died and risen as an undead abomination centuries ago, yet (I don't recall the exact places in the story at the momen) he shows a lot of all too human feelings during the books.
-I don't agree with that at all.
-J.R.R. Tolkien was, perhaps, the pinnacle of fantastical world designing. Did he ever play Dungeons and Dragons?
Ummmm... you bring up one point, and then address another?
Anyone with an imagination can write a decent story... you NEED to play D&D to write sourcebooks for it!
Why do you think we have so many broken rules and PrCs in 3e? Anything can look good on paper.
This is another case of setting discussions getting muddied by rules-discussion (and vice-versa).
My point was that the reason why all those old gaming products (from the early days, even before Ed sold the Realms) are so damn interesting to read is because they are written by DMs - guys who have YEARS of experience making something so interesting you want to go there.
The 3e team have experience writing about things you want to read about, which is a whole 'nother ball of wax. I enjoy reading about Volcanoes... but I don't want to go to one.
A sourcebook MUST be written by someone who truly loves the game, else we end-up with the dry textbook approach of the current schlok. It doesn't make you want you to grab your sword and some armor an GO! It makes you want to keep reading and try to figure out whats going on (and you never really get to that point - this site is evidence of that - none of us know whats going on).
You have to be able to make people WANT to adventure, and without that experience under your belt, you're just another (young adult) author.
Now... those Paizo guys... THOSE are some GAMERS! Just spend a week or three over at their site and you'll see how they have their fans eating out of their hands. Thats whats SUPPOSED to happen when you capture someone's imaginaion.
A good author writes a book that you just can't put down, and you find yourself still reading when the sun is coming up. A good game-designer makes you want to put the friggin' sourcebook DOWN and get some friends together for a game.
FR stopped being a game setting years ago... we are only just realizing it now...
Then again, in the new FR you can fight the gods pretty easily and win, so perhaps Szass Tam is just another "elite" boss villain along the path toward epic purple loots!
For those of us who have played 4E, which given this comment is probably not you, fighting a God is actually just about borderline impossible. Gods over level 35 (Bane for example and most Greater Gods would be in the range of 37-40th level) would annihilate any party of 30th level probably easily.
The Gods with published stats, Vecna and Tiamat, easily crucify parties that aren't specifically metagamed from the start to beat them. Even if the PCs win, there are usually at least 2-3 dead characters and the other two have taken a severe beating. If you used say, Tiamat in your epic level campaign at level 30 as a final fight the PCs are likely to get wiped easily. Unless they had a really dedicated build to take on Tiamat and were doing it from say 1st level with specific equipment (EG not your regular group) they will probably die horribly. Considering Tiamat happily wipes the floor with optimised parties, it's ridiculous to claim you can fight Gods "easily".
For the record, both Tiamat and Vecna are 35th level.
As for the OP, yup, that sounds like another RSE. Seems even after the uber-RSE of the Spellplague the Realms aren't safe from them. Alas.
Depending on when the book is set it's probably just describing what already happened before the current date in the book. It's not so much a RSE as it is just something that happened anyway along the way. If Thay was as it was and then this book was out that devastated Thay into the undead nation it is now it would be an RSE.
Minding I suppose it depends on your definition (as I'm not sure if a novel describes something that already happened in it we can say it's a novel with an RSE
).In any event, what we forget here in relation to this book from what I've perused (albeit select portions) is:
Show
That somehow Szass Tam binds Bane and then manages to "threaten" him while not being able to fully figure out what happened to the way magic worked after Mystra died. If he's powerful enough to figure out how to use magic to bind a deity, why on earth is he bothering to ask him in the first place? Not to mention even though Szass Tam is pretty powerful, he must be well above the sort of power adventurers can attain to be able to successfully threaten Bane (or perhaps Bane is manipulating or amused by Szass Tam in some way: though I can't see how).
This makes absolutely zero sense.
This makes absolutely zero sense.
Ummmm... you bring up one point, and then address another?
-You statement was, "A good game designer PLAYS D&D." In retrospect, I did misread what you wrote (I thought your statement was, "A good world designer PLAYS D&D"), but a similar argument still exists. As I mentioned, other rule sets that are not D&D exist. Being a capable ruleset designer does not mean that one needs to be proficient with, or play, D&D. Face needs to be saved, and I am going to save it, no matter what.
-RW
At least someone got it.
The real point is, when something is made with love, you can tell. Every last tiny detail Ed writes about is carefully crafted so you think it actually exists somewhere.
4e's presentation is "Its a game folks, nothing more, nothing less. If you want it to feel real make it all up yourself."
I read the 4e setting, and the better part of 3e truth-be-told, and I feel a complete disconnect going on. The people writing for the Realms have absolutely NO emotional attachment to it... and it shows.
A musician cannot compose magnificent concertos, nor an Artist create masterpieces, unless he 'feels' his work with his soul. The same goes for any creative endeavor - without that connection, FR has become a souless husk just shambling along.
Edit: and once again, I reiterate - I am NOT talking about rules here - I am addressing what I feel is a problem with the setting (the whole setting, not just 4e), so please stop telling me how good the crunchy 4e rules are. I'm sure they are perfectly balanced... but so is Sorry, and Monopoly, and Chess...
You can have the most perfectly constructed set of rules ever written, but without the 'love', you just got youself a very large and very expensive instruction manual.
Thats not D&D... at least not to me. The rules didn't need to be 'perfect' - it was never about them at all, and I feel sorry for people people who think that it was. As Gary Gygax was fond of saying, the real secret is you don't need the rules at all.
But don't wait around for ED to save your soul or Its'.
Show(3) There's now a spell that is even more powerful than Karsus' Avatar that a mage who's far less powerful than Karsus can invoke. This spell turns the caster into a god, destroys a prime world, and then allows the caster to create a world from the resulting debris. All the while, divine powers and their proxies will stand around and not do anything (though the author tried to cover his base by saying gods work in unpredictable ways).
Emphasis mine.
Now I hate that silly phrase even more than I already did.
I know eh? But, I am going to give Richard Lee Byers the benefit of doubt. As I said before, it's not immediately clear as to which ideas are from WotC and which are not.
Unfortunately, since this thread is not really appreciating any products, I doubt we will get an answer from one of those big boys from WotC or writing team. At least not here.
I know eh? But, I am going to give Richard Lee Byers the benefit of doubt. As I said before, it's not immediately clear as to which ideas are from WotC and which are not.
I agree. I have no argument with Mr. Byers and I've enjoyed a lot of his FR novels so far. And hey, even if using that phrase (among other things) really was his idea, it's not exactly some unforgivable sin--it's more of a head-meets-palm moment for me.
Unfortunately, since this thread is not really appreciating any products, I doubt we will get an answer from one of those big boys from WotC or writing team. At least not here.
Well, WotC employees/authors* only rarely, as far as I can tell, just drop in to answer people's concerns, even if the comments involve praise for their products. If one wants an answer from them, the best course of action is to contact them directly.
*Many authors of WotC are freelancers, of course, and are not actual WotC employees. RLB is a freelancer.
*Many authors of WotC are freelancers, of course, and are not actual WotC employees. RLB is a freelancer.
Which, I must say, is probably where we develop such a CENSORED up in canon. Most don't know for certain what they are writing.
I'm not saying this is the freelancers fault, simply WotC's for not communicating with them properly or checking up on their facts.
After-all, they need to keep to the script - the company people can re-write the script whenever they damn well please.
I give you Mark Sehestedt as an example of a Freelancer who has produced two flawless FR novels.
Well, WotC employees/authors* only rarely, as far as I can tell, just drop in to answer people's concerns, even if the comments involve praise for their products. If one wants an answer from them, the best course of action is to contact them directly.
They occassionally do, though the nature of this thread would decrease the likelihood. I remember there was a time when we were QQing about the Spellplague and RB (not RLB) jumped in and argued that it wasn't his fault or something (i.e. he was trying as hard as he could to preserve FR, which of course goes against his more recent comments in that special thread).
*Many authors of WotC are freelancers, of course, and are not actual WotC employees. RLB is a freelancer.
RLB does post in Candlekeep and presumably knows about this place. PK and EC both (used to) post a lot. Speaking of which, what's EC been up to nowadays? I accidentally grabbed one of her Councellors and Kings novels last night and it reminded me of quality's definition.
Ummm... it's been my impression that the Freelancers tend to get "their facts straight" Far more often then the 'in-house' guys.
After-all, they need to keep to the script - the company people can re-write the script whenever they damn well please.
I give you Mark Sehestedt as an example of a Freelancer who has produced two flawless FR novels.
And the others, butt-boob?!
---
And I would give it uo to yhdslgbvmm, but I can't CENSORED spell his name!!
4e's presentation is "Its a game folks, nothing more, nothing less. If you want it to feel real make it all up yourself."
Which is a solid approach for a games system yes.
I read the 4e setting, and the better part of 3e truth-be-told, and I feel a complete disconnect going on. The people writing for the Realms have absolutely NO emotional attachment to it... and it shows.
In your highly subjective opinion yes. I get an impression the designers thought that this time, they would make the setting the perogative of the person who was running it and not them.
The same goes for any creative endeavor - without that connection, FR has become a souless husk just shambling along.
In your highly subjective opinion.
My players aren't finding that at all in any of the games I'm running.
and once again, I reiterate - I am NOT talking about rules here - I am addressing what I feel is a problem with the setting (the whole setting, not just 4e), so please stop telling me how good the crunchy 4e rules are. I'm sure they are perfectly balanced... but so is Sorry, and Monopoly, and Chess..
And Monopoly, Chess and similar have survived for many years as well (continuing to be profitable). I still like a game of chess but the most fancy, well constructed and convoluted story like those in many Japanese RPGs (As an example) is only ever worth playing for a short period of time. If the game system is no good, nobody wants to continue playing it or they will move onto other things (White Wolf, Call of Cthulhu etc).
But again, I don't think your highly subjective conjecture on the designers motivations are all that valid to be frank. Especially as they don't really have the time (Or apparently inclination) to bother defending themselves. Not that by this point I believe they would even feel that would be warranted or something they should bother doing.
You can have the most perfectly constructed set of rules ever written, but without the 'love', you just got youself a very large and very expensive instruction manual.
Thats not D&D... at least not to me. The rules didn't need to be 'perfect' - it was never about them at all, and I feel sorry for people people who think that it was. As Gary Gygax was fond of saying, the real secret is you don't need the rules at all.
I disagree, because a solid ruleset is important in a P&P based game. I've played a wide variety of systems and the ones I keep coming back to have fun, interesting or just plain whacky ways of ensuring the game keeps going along. 2nd Edition DnD had a lot of flaws, but ultimately it worked well enough that I enjoyed playing it for a long time. Call of Cthulhu has an interesting sanity mechanic that provides alternatives to "you die horribly" when facing down horrible monsters from other dimensions and such forth.
The roleplaying makes these games entertaining, but it's the ruleset that functionally determines how the base game plays. If the base game isn't fun or is over-complicated or just facilitates power gaming far too much, then nobody wants to play it anyway in my experience.
Seeing as you mention Gary Gygax I'm particularly fond of this statement actually:
I've looked at them, yes, but I'm not really a fan. The new D&D is too rule intensive. It's relegated the Dungeon Master to being an entertainer rather than master of the game. It's done away with the archetypes, focused on nothing but combat and character power, lost the group cooperative aspect, bastardized the class-based system, and resembles a comic-book superheroes game more than a fantasy RPG where a player can play any alignment desired, not just lawful good.
Now, should I tell you what I really think?
They occassionally do, though the nature of this thread would decrease the likelihood.
They used to quite a lot a long time ago, but then there were certain thread wars and other things that inevitably led to some rather nasty exchanges. These ensured that there was a bit of bitterness on the part of certain authors, Elaine Cunningham in particular IIRC, which eventually ensured that there was a total ban on novel discussion being placed. Although they seem to have relaxed that recently, I don't believe that many authors come back to post here anymore because of those problems back then. Which is a bit of a shame.
I would love an explanation to the questions relating to Szass Tam and Bane that people have asked about from the author, but I doubt that is likely.
Seeing as you mention Gary Gygax I'm particularly fond of this statement actually:
Kind of reminds me of how Lenin scoffed at Stalin and his disciples for distorting and abusing the original ideal of communism. But of course, I am not saying D&D's evil or anything. :P
Kind of reminds me of how Lenin scoffed at Stalin and his disciples for distorting and abusing the original ideal of communism. But of course, I am not saying D&D's evil or anything. :P
Yes. It's why I love that statement so much.
Though I don't think Gygax would have looked good in red.
They occassionally do, though the nature of this thread would decrease the likelihood. I remember there was a time when we were QQing about the Spellplague and RB (not RLB) jumped in and argued that it wasn't his fault or something (i.e. he was trying as hard as he could to preserve FR, which of course goes against his more recent comments in that special thread).
RLB does post in Candlekeep and presumably knows about this place. PK and EC both (used to) post a lot. Speaking of which, what's EC been up to nowadays? I accidentally grabbed one of her Councellors and Kings novels last night and it reminded me of quality's definition.
Yeah, that was a good series.
I'm pretty positive RLB has posted here before, but I agree that the nature of this thread would likely not be particularly "welcoming."
Yes. It's why I love that statement so much.
Though I don't think Gygax would have looked good in red.
But let's do hope there will be a Nikita Khrushchev around to do some de-stalinization in the future.
ShowThat somehow Szass Tam binds Bane and then manages to "threaten" him while not being able to fully figure out what happened to the way magic worked after Mystra died. If he's powerful enough to figure out how to use magic to bind a deity, why on earth is he bothering to ask him in the first place? Not to mention even though Szass Tam is pretty powerful, he must be well above the sort of power adventurers can attain to be able to successfully threaten Bane (or perhaps Bane is manipulating or amused by Szass Tam in some way: though I can't see how).
This makes absolutely zero sense.
ShowEven worse: It's not some random demigod (would already have been unbelieveable it it would have been just Velsharron), but Bane. One of the strongest deities in the pantheon. The implications of this event basically are that if he could do that much to Bane, he logically could do much more to less powerfull deities! And Szass isn't even THAT powerfull as far as the mortals god. If Szass could do that to Bane, what could Larloch do to Bane? Or Larloch do to Umberlee (as he's stronger than Szaas and she's weaker than Bane)?
-That's why I always scoff and chuckle when people say that they don't want Forgotten Realms novels to be canon. I know that if novels weren't canon, I wouldn't buy them- why buy novels that don't really matter? And, then, of course, continuing the chain reaction, if I never picked up and read any of the novels, I never would have really gotten into the Forgotten Realms. And, if I had never really gotten into the Forgotten Realms, there'd be no LK. And, if there wasn't a LK, who knows what things would be like!?
We would still have Mystril ?
;)
We would still have Mystril ?
-Probably not, since all of that happened in Netheril: Empire of Magic, a sourcebook that I had no editorial control over. If I had editorial control over things, there'd be a lot of differences.
-Probably not, since all of that happened in Netheril: Empire of Magic, a sourcebook that I had no editorial control over. If I had editorial control over things, there'd be a lot of differences.
Ever wished you could cast an Avatar spell on say... RB or EB?
-Hmm...I don't know it that's true or not, but...Offhand, the only designers I can think of that have had both novels (not short stories) and design credits (over the course of 20 +/- years) would be...
- Ed Greenwood
- Steven Schend
- Rich Baker
- Jeff Grub
- Bruce Cordell
- Doug Niles
- R.A. Salvatore
- Thomas Reid
- Jean Rabe
-I'm sure that's nowhere near comprehensive...
The Avatar Crisis was released under a Psuedonym, but was later revealed that it was three seperate authors (and their names were put on the re-prints).
T.H. Lain was the author of the 'Iconics' series of novels released at beginning of 3e.... and all 10 were written by different authors. In fact, Philip Athans wrote two of them.
The name on the cover isn't always who really wrote the book - a LOT of designers have written novels under psuedonyms.
Ever wished you could cast an Avatar spell on say... RB or EB?
-Depends on who you define 'RB' or 'EB' as. 'RB', I am assuming is 'Rich Baker'. 'EB', I don't know, but the only 'EB' I know, I would not want to become. As for Rich, no, I don't think I'd want to take him over. It's bad enough knowing Phillies fans. I can't imaging what it would be like possessing one.
The name on the cover isn't always who really wrote the book - a LOT of designers have written novels under psuedonyms.
-Sure, sure. Nowhere have I read that those listed individuals didn't actually write the books and/or sourcebooks attributed to them, so. The only one I might be a little iffy about would be R.A. Salvatore, with "his" sourcebooks, as I've never really seen him as a guy who wrote sourcebooks, as opposed to someone who's novels explored a bredth of information, that was later collected and expanded upon by [Insert other names in sourcebook credits].
But now I just can't explain why the novels tend to be so sucky.
I stand by my impressions though.-Depends on who you define 'RB' or 'EB' as. 'RB', I am assuming is 'Rich Baker'. 'EB', I don't know, but the only 'EB' I know, I would not want to become. As for Rich, no, I don't think I'd want to take him over. It's bad enough knowing Phillies fans. I can't imaging what it would be like possessing one.
Karsus's Avatar doesn't possess - It steals. I think, at this stage, its casting wouldn't have that much of a negative impart on the Realms as it did when the recipient was Mystryl.
Why Wizards even lets Byers write I'll never know. I don't blame him for being bad. I've not read his no Realms novels, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. But the man knows nothing of the setting or the game, and writes like a tourettes ridden child in a candy store. I'm not sure how many more times I can watch a caster of any level use Burning Hands to instantly kill CR 12 + undead. I won't even touch on his ability to use duplicate words multiple times in one sentence, or let certain trains of thought run on to long.
Plain and simple, hand in hand with it's predecessors, and other RLB novels, these prove among the very worst pieces of tripe to grace the shelves, let alone the Forgotten Realms setting. If the designers ever seek his advice or ideas, it'll mean a sad day for the world, and a day I DO finally give up on the setting.
Sorry to leap in late, and since I can't recall if I've read any of Byers' stuff, I'm avoiding the lit-crit aspect of the whole thing, but:
It's not necessarily fair to hold any of the FR authors responsible for the "content" of their novels. I'm assuming the vast majority of these novels are written at the behest of WOTC, as opposed to an idea dreamed up by the author.
It's quite possible that Byers was told something along the lines of, "Have Szass Tam capture Bane, yadda yadda, Tam gets the power, yadda, wipes out all the other zulkirs, 'cos that's the way we want the story to go. Oh yeah, and if you don't, you don't get a paycheck."
I don't have enough insight into this - in large part I've always assumed that the individual authors were responsible for the RSEs, et al. that have brought so many complaints. But as this chewed around in my mind for the past few hours, I'm wondering if the poor authors haven't been in large part at the mercy of the same managerial team that has caused me (at least) so much annoyance over the last few years in driving a story that makes less and less sense as the days have passed.
Feel free to correct me if anyone knows better. I'm just wondering out loud, as it were.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20030305x
This is a contest for new authors mind you, with some play-it-safe restrictions, for a very non-RSE tale. The situation is likely to be different for established authors, or Franklin may have received further guidelines after being accepted.
But you get a picture of how restrictive WotC is with their novel requirements. I've spent some time trying to get into the old Doctor Who novels, and the requirements were much less severe (make up your own stuff, don't use overrused thing X, don't use fankwanky thing Y).
Using Loviatar is obvious, but the restriction of settings is a bit odd. Sembia, Thay, Chessenta (Luthcheq specifically) Kameron Franklin hedged his bets by bookending the novel with scenes set in Thay, which confused the storyline. Shoehorning a Thayan Loviatan into Luthcheq was a bit odd, as Chessenta has its own Loviatan cults already; why did the employer have to go to Thay to find one (his deceased wife was already a member)?
Avoiding "Lolth (or any other drow god), Mask, Cyric, Shar, Mystra" I can understand - they're the pet projects of other authors (and overrused to boot) - but Umberlee and Lurue? They don't fit a Loviatan tale anyway, at all, but it's an odd choice of restriction. WotC may have had other novel plans that didn't eventuate (or I didn't read the novels, ahem).
"Avoid these monsters: aboleths, beholders, doppelgangers, dracoliches, dragons, giants, liches, mind flayers, orcs, vampires, and yuan-ti." Some I can understand, others I can't. Franklin used vampires anyway, they're an important part of Luthcheq.
Avoid certain character types: mostly obvious, but alchemists? Apprentice/inexperienced wizards? Sorcerers? These are mostly necessary for a Luthcheq tale as well (the rebel mages), though Franklin didn't emphasise any inexperience or sorcery.
I don't mean to pick on Franklin or Maiden Of Pain here, it's just probably the only example we have of guidelines vs final novel.
Avoiding "Lolth (or any other drow god), Mask, Cyric, Shar, Mystra" I can understand - they're the pet projects of other authors (and overrused to boot) - but Umberlee and Lurue? They don't fit a Loviatan tale anyway, at all, but it's an odd choice of restriction. WotC may have had other novel plans that didn't eventuate (or I didn't read the novels, ahem).
-Lurue was the deity of the protagonist in Bruce Cordell's Lady of Poison, from the same The Priests' series, and Umberlee was the deity of the protagonist in Richard Lee Byers' Queen of the Depths, again in the The Priests' series.
They specifically forbid anyone for comitting anything to canon that might conflict with lore already being established by someone else....
Which brings me right back to our point of contention in the other thread. :P
I would LOVE to do a short-story set in FR, but I'll never get the chance, and even if I did, I'd have to come back here everyday and hear everyone piss and moan about what a crappy story it was and how "they could do better". :D
I would LOVE to do a short-story set in FR, but I'll never get the chance, and even if I did, I'd have to come back here everyday and hear everyone piss and moan about what a crappy story it was and how "they could do better". :D
Yeah, well, I could have totally written that bit there better. You suck. :P
:D
Right.
They specifically forbid anyone for comitting anything to canon that might conflict with lore already being established by someone else....
Which brings me right back to our point of contention in the other thread. :P
-Not really, no.
I would LOVE to do a short-story set in FR, but I'll never get the chance, and even if I did, I'd have to come back here everyday and hear everyone piss and moan about what a crappy story it was and how "they could do better". :D
-People complain about things that they think are sub par. If you wrote something that isn't something people consider sub par, not too many people would dislike it. How many people do you hear everyday complaining about Sentinelspire. I think you and me might be the only ones who actually read it, but taking that into account, neither you or I have criticized it heavily, so...
For me, it's not about if I could write something better in terms of writing a novel - it's about if the events in that novel make any sense. The events in Unholy make zero sense and I feel I can easily write something that works a lot better in terms of just being an explanation. In terms of writing a novel, I have no idea if I could write something that was better or not narrative wish. I do know I would not have things be so logically defunct.
-That's a very good way of putting it. With certain things, do I think I have the technical writing prowess of various established authors? No, I don't think so- though, we don't know how heavily edited and such things are. Do I often think that, having read things, I can reach the same ultimate conclusion by using a different route- one that makes a lot more sense in-setting and such? Yes.